The Toys that Made Us Season 3: TMNT

[evan]

After months of waiting I woke up like a kid on Christmas morning, threw on my newest TMNT tshirt, brewed a cup of coffee, and settled in for 45 minutes of TMNT Toy Collecting bliss.

Walking away from it my feelings are mixed and that's not what I expected at all. On one hand it's great to see new footage and new people commenting on the franchise, but on the other I'm left wanting a heck of a lot more.

After Season 1 and 2 I was ready for thorough insight to the decisions that were made for the toy line, but I'm utterly disappointed that the episode ended up regurgitating the same story that's already been told for the past 35 years.

I expected so much more about character designs, figure scale/direction, foreign licensing/variants, sales figures and success/failure, rebranding inspiration success and challenges, insights to new story lines... ANYTHING new.

Worst of all the figures weren't hyped up! After speaking with a friend who is not a toy collector or TMNT fan, but someone who has watched the other seasons.... previous episodes inspired him to get out his old legos and transformers. I don't think there was anything in this that would make a former fan want to necessarily go grab their figures or start collecting them.

I do appreciate the focus on Eastman and Laird and the reunion at the end was borderline emotional. That was easily the highlight of the episode for me.

I look forward to hearing everyone else's takeaways..

PS. Congratulations to all of our fellow collectors in here who were featured in the episode as well as those whose collections were featured at the end. All impressive collections and very well deserved.

[wpugh2424]

I felt this was a great episode. I have watched his twice already. Once with my kid and once while working out.
I really enjoyed the ending suggesting Peter and Kevin may work in the future together on more TMNT.

[funatic]

Oof that ending. I'm not crying, you're crying! Had no idea they filmed a reunion at Mirage Studios, which is literally 10 min from my house. I was probably scratching my ass down the street. :tlol: That ending left a lot of hope for a comics reunion (though I'm still not counting on it). Peter seems to be transitioning into his little old man phase which is bittersweet, but so is life at best. :twink:

[AquaParade]

Wow! What a nice surprise that was. I nearly teared up at the end. Really fascinating getting yet another step closer to understanding the story of Mirage studios. Best of all, it gave me hope that we may see Kevin and Peter reunite someday for a comic.

Loved it.

[CyberCubed]

Is this on youtube anywhere?

[Redrumh2o]

Just watched it......I thought it was awesome. Very sad but a great story of the history.

[Roseangelo]

I liked it. It was a good telling of the story.

The only thing that made me go "Ehh..." was at the end when they were trying to pump Rise as being the next Big Thing. I think most of this was filmed last year, and now Rise is barely still in stores. Oops.

The ending with Kevin and Peter is definitely the best part.

[funatic]

I loved how honest Kevin and Pete were in this. Particularly when Kevin is relating how he was just 23 when Turtles blew up and the age difference between them (8 years) put them in such different stages of life which helped widen their divide. Having now myself lived both those ages, in retrospect 23 is sooo much younger than 31 in a lot of ways, and it makes a lot more sense.

Um, also liked the remnants of Kevin’s dyed hair and that Pete did his interview in shorts. These guys made millions but it clearly never changed their sense of style. :tlol: You keep doing you boys.

[TommyT]

They kind of made Freedman the hero, and he was no hero. Also, no the first issue didn't sell out immediately. It took some time for the book to catch on.

[Powder]

I'm with you on that, Evan.

While I was entertained, had a few laughs, & saw a piece of concept art or two that was new to me, I have more bad than good to say of it. They did very surface level stuff, re-hashed old stories, & gave a lot of credit to people who didn't necessarily deserve it. To that end, so many key figures were entirely ignored. How about dedicating a chunk of it to the people who actually developed the toyline? Hello? Mirage was, in addition to pumping out comics & children's books for countless publishers, handling licensing art duties & more, constantly designed new characters, variants, vehicles, & so on, for Playmates. Some of the most iconic stuff was done by guys whose names weren't even mentioned. Christ, at least give Ryan Brown & Michael Dooney a shout out. Not to mention the Playmates in-house talent like David Arshawsky who came up with Pizzaface, Muckman, & many other of the more gross & wacky characters whose themes & aesthetics are to this day synonymous with the brand. Errol Mccarthy was doing SO much of the concept art & re-designs from the very beginning, how about him? Sure, Varner got to throw in his 2 cents, but a whole segment should've been given to his sculpt work alone. The guy's been making their figures come to life for 30 years. Dude.

Once again, as with virtually all these kinda things, they more or less play it off as if the original comics couldn't find an audience, that they'd have gone nowhere without Surge, that David Wise is entirely responsible for the turtles' personalities/group dynamic, & that Playmates created Bebop & Rocksteady (their guy finalized the look, but Peter conceptualized them). I can't stand this kind of thing in what is supposed to be an informative piece that gives new insights to casual fans & the general public. It just furthers the idea that the TMNT as they were intended, holds no merit. Cowabunga.

Then you get this saccharin crap about Pete & Kevin's post-turtlemania relationship. It's true things fell apart between them due to business eating up all their time & energy, with Venus sorta being the nail in the coffin, that's worth noting, sure. But it otherwise felt like very sensationalized heart string tugging that should have no place in this kind of feature. The sappy music & implication that they, the creators of The Toys That Made Us, united them for the first time in 20 years, is low key insulting. You've got all these dopes on social media literally crying about how this program saved their heroes' friendship, having no idea that Pete & Kev have done a bunch of stuff together since the TMNT buyout, book signings, collaborative art pieces, even a bit of palling around for Turtle Power. Definitely cool to see them looking around Mirage, though, more of that would've been great.

Also, can the powers that be f*cking please stop electing Michelle Ivey & "Black Nerd" to be the ambassadors of this fandom?

On another note, cool to recognize some of the collections in the credits, including one which has my art in it. Ya boy is on netflix. :tlol:

[TommyT]

Andre has a really good agent, maybe the same PR person as Kevin Smith. That guy is everywhere, and gives his two cents on everything, even when nobody’s asking.
For some reason, they brought in that He-man collector, James Eatock as well.
WTF?

Tokka, if anything, or almost anyone here. Black nerd is the shilling ist shill there is.

[AquaParade]

Powder, those are all great points. I came away pleasantly surprised that they even touched on Mirage studios, as I didn’t even know this show existed until yesterday and assumed it would just be an extremely surface level look at the toys.

But yeah, I rolled my eyes so hard seeing certain people pop up once again as reps of the fan base. I honestly think it’s detrimental to the franchise at this point. No offense to them, personally.

The Mark Freedman stuff was weird. He almost seemed bashful when trying to frame himself as “the fifth turtle”. He knew he was stretching it like Armstrong there, I’d guess. Are you saying Venus de Milo is your spirit animal, Mark? Or is yellow more your style?
To be fair, I don’t know his full involvement, I’ve just seen him pop up in “Turtle Power” a bit, but you could tell something was up when the camera cuts to Kevin replying to an unheard question in the form of “Mark was merely a...[toy agent or something]”. It just seemed like Kevin had to talk his involvement down a tad. Like maybe Mark had gotten to the documentary crew first and made his mark.

[AquaParade]

Is this on youtube anywhere?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0

:tcouch:

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0

:tcouch:

I haven't been Rickrolled for many years.

[King Kahn]

Oof that ending. I'm not crying, you're crying! Had no idea they filmed a reunion at Mirage Studios, which is literally 10 min from my house. I was probably scratching my ass down the street. :tlol: That ending left a lot of hope for a comics reunion (though I'm still not counting on it). Peter seems to be transitioning into his little old man phase which is bittersweet, but so is life at best. :twink:

yeah, the ending with Kevin and Peter reuniting made the whole doc worth it. Sure we all know the history, there was another more indepth doc as well, but seeing them back together was great.

I was honestly surprised they touched on the rift between the two since the other doc really did not. Between the two docs I think we have a pretty well rounded bunch of info for people.

Would I have wanted the episode to be ALL about JUST the toys, sure, but that isn't what this series is about. It isn't JUST the toys but the property as a whole.

[AquaParade]

I haven't been Rickrolled for many years.

It was a low blow. May someone strike revenge on me.

[Autbot_Benz]

Also they left NECA out of this. Which is a shame as they have been championing for the TMNT Adult Collector stuff

NECA
@NECA_TOYS
It’s true and definitely disappointed

[CyberCubed]

Watched it, I had no idea TMNT is what brought Playmates into the U.S. from Japan as a mainstream toy company. I guess this is why Playmates will never lose the TMNT license ever, they've pretty much survived on the brand for 3 decades.

Also surprised they straight up admitted Next mutation was a failure. You usually don't see them say that even if it was canceled after 1 season. And then of course the constant reboots with 2k3, then Nick, etc. let them continuing re-brand the toys for new kids and adults fans a like.

Some other interesting things is I didn't know Kevin didn't get any of the $60 million buy-out from Nick. I remember hearing he got some money from it? I guess not. No wonder why he works for IDW consistently since 2011. It also really is shocking that from like 1998-2011 Kevin had nothing to do with TMNT at all, that's more than a decade and it's all because of both Next Mutation and then Image ending.

The art at the end was interesting and I wonder if that will be used for anything. One last thought, did PL's voice sound really frail and old to anyone else? I mean I know he IS old now, but last time I heard him speak he didn't sound like that. He sounded really, "weak" if I could describe it, like frail sounding, I hope he's healthy.

[d_osborn]

I echo evan and powder's critiques-- not nearly enough about the toys. It's like an abridged, not-as-good version of the Turtle Power doc.

A little historical context is nice, but the series is about toys, not franchises.

[TommyT]

It also really is shocking that from like 1998-2011 Kevin had nothing to do with TMNT at all, that's more than a decade and it's all because of both Next Mutation and then Image ending.

It all stems from Venus.

[CyberCubed]

Also surprised to learn Peter was already 31 when he created the Turtles. I mean damn when you think about that, PL already lived a large chunk of his adult life before he even became a millionaire. It's like one of those "later in life" type successes.

[TommyT]

Also surprised to learn Peter was already 31 when he created the Turtles. I mean damn when you think about that, PL already lived a large chunk of his adult life before he even became a millionaire. It's like one of those "later in life" type successes.

Most people don't hit their stride until 40. Don't be fooled.

[shawnoen]

Just watched the episode! Brought back so many memories of my teenage years going to Midway Book and Comic in St Paul, MN with my dad looking for new issues. Started collecting at issue #2 and never stopped. Sometimes it would be 3-4 weeks between issues, sometimes it would be many, many months.

Already knew the whole backstory but it was fun to see it all put together in a single episode.

Still have all my old Mirage issues too! Never did buy #1 1st print though. Just 2nd printing onward....should have purchased when it was "cheap" but there are just too many fakes out there. Even in the 90s there were many fakes with white paper pages. Almost bought one at a comic convention many years ago for $600 but that was steep at the time!

When I see CGC graded copies if #1, 1st printing selling on ebay for over $10,000 and it says "WHITE PAGES" I just cringe.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Also surprised to learn Peter was already 31 when he created the Turtles. I mean damn when you think about that, PL already lived a large chunk of his adult life before he even became a millionaire. It's like one of those "later in life" type successes.

Born in January 1954, Peter Laird was 29 years old when creating the TMNT back in November 1983.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Laird

[CyberCubed]

It's so weird to think that a bunch of 30 year olds from the late 80's getting together at the right time along with all these toy execs is the only reason the TMNT franchise even exists in the first place. Like if one little thing was different or never happened, the entire TMNT franchise wouldn't exist.

I mean I know all franchises are based around executive meddling, but it's so weird that, "everything happened at the right time."

[Zulithe]

I wish their format focused a little more on interesting facts and details and less on humor. Give us more of a deep dive on this stuff.

Not sure how Kevin Smith was in any way relevant to TMNT, he was already a man grown when it hit big, nor has he been any significant part of TMNT history over the years. No insight from his comments. The guy just wants to be in everything to line his pockets. And I'm still perplexed as hell at him working on Masters.

I'm glad they acknowledged what an enormous force TMNT was for the toy industry by spotlighting them in an episode. But most of this felt like retreat ground after the Turtle Power documentary hit a while back.

[MikeandRaph87]

Who were the two evil mutant molds that had nose gimmicks? They were no named. I did not know a character did not make the cut in the original line.

I found it funny how the toy designer hated April's look because it was not sexualized enough. What about how off The Shredder was from the character as depicted in Turtle Tracks?

[Panther10]

I feel like this episode served as an abbreviated version of the Turtle Power documentary that came out a few years ago. In fact I think I prefer that one more.

[IndigoErth]

Watched it last night and enjoyed it a lot. Had never watched an episode of this series before, so I really didn't know what to expect. That ending though...

I'd kind of assumed Laird had largely moved on from the TMNT, what with selling and Eastman being the one still actively involved (though I guess he is the one who moved on for a bit temporarily?), but it's nice to know he didn't really and that he kept rights to self publish anything should he ever decide to. Would be awesome if they both put out something together again, even if just a mini series to kind of bookend the careers they started together.

I have said before that they're basically the Turtles' real life dads and laughed when they did refer to themselves like that. :D

And I finally know why the '87 Shredder figure is positioned so oddly! :lol: Although the shirtlessness remains a mystery.




Only part I didn't like was trying to sell 'Rise' as being the "biggest one yet" or however they put it. I understand promoting it and marketers, etc hoping for a big payoff and wanting it to be big now, but from a historical standpoint of a long running franchise, for the one that throws the prior 35 years under the bus to be the "biggest yet"... Yeah, leaves a bad taste in the mouth. Either way, Turtlemania is probably impossible to repeat.

[wpugh2424]

I think turtle mania could exist again (maybe not to the extent of the first go round ) with the right reboot.
I think focusing on the idw series with some heavy involvement with both Laird and Eastman would take off with the older fans and newcomers alike. It would have to be a good mix of targeting both demographics however.

This episode was really good imo

[***First of Two Latin Kings***]

I don't mind Andre but I do agree that Michele shouldn't be fan spokesperson simply due to being loud and over the top. We don't get a vote unfortunately.

[Raptor86]

Fun fact: they gave a man voice to Michele in the Italian dubbings.

[Andrew NDB]

Just watched it. I had no idea this was a thing on Netflix, yet there it was today. Pretty good encapsulation of the ups and downs of the TMNT even beyond the toys, though they really breezed by the 2009-2019 decade.

Definitely sad at the end. I've always kind of figured Kevin was the one to drift away from Kevin, but I've never heard him be as honest about it as here. He was young, single, and suddenly rich... hanging around an older dude who you talk Jack Kirby with would become a bit less appealing. And clearly the female Turtle thing, Kevin breaking that understanding is presented here as the not-so-little straw that irreparably damaged their bond.

Also surprised to learn Peter was already 31 when he created the Turtles. I mean damn when you think about that, PL already lived a large chunk of his adult life before he even became a millionaire. It's like one of those "later in life" type successes.

And Kevin was like 23? wtf?

Oof that ending. I'm not crying, you're crying! Had no idea they filmed a reunion at Mirage Studios, which is literally 10 min from my house. I was probably scratching my ass down the street. :tlol: That ending left a lot of hope for a comics reunion (though I'm still not counting on it). Peter seems to be transitioning into his little old man phase which is bittersweet, but so is life at best. :twink:

Their last reunion at the end of the Turtle Power doc at their old Northampton house didn't lead to anything, so I'm not too much thinking it's very likely. Plus with as much as the Venus thing is presented as a "no going back" thing here between them, I wonder how Peter feels about Kevin rolling out Jennika? I'm kind of assuming he doesn't care, but I don't think it would be anything positive either.

Andre has a really good agent, maybe the same PR person as Kevin Smith. That guy is everywhere, and gives his two cents on everything, even when nobody’s asking.
For some reason, they brought in that He-man collector, James Eatock as well.
WTF?

Tokka, if anything, or almost anyone here. Black nerd is the shilling ist shill there is.

Yeah, Black Nerd has been trotted out to talk up everything, even telling us how great "Out of the Shadows" is.

I would've liked to hear other Mirage voices in there. Berger, Farley, Lawson. Not to be dour, but it'd have been an interesting counterpoint to hear from those who didn't quite get to take the ride all the way, but were knee deep in it for years and years nonetheless.

The only thing that made me go "Ehh..." was at the end when they were trying to pump Rise as being the next Big Thing. I think most of this was filmed last year, and now Rise is barely still in stores. Oops.

Definitely a head-scratcher. Even if it was filmed a year ago, it's really hard to believe the head of Playmates ever whooping about, "I think it's going to be the biggest show yet!"

I refuse to believe anyone involved at such a level could ever have thought that. That Rise was ever intended as anything other than a palate cleanse between "real" cartoons is hysterical.

Some other interesting things is I didn't know Kevin didn't get any of the $60 million buy-out from Nick. I remember hearing he got some money from it? I guess not.

Why would you think that? News of Kevin selling his half of the rights to Peter in 2000 was pretty hard to miss. He wouldn't receive any money from Nick because he no longer had anything to sell.

I mean, maybe Peter was like, "Hey Kevin, here's 5 million from the deal for old time's sake" after selling to Viacom in 2009 but I really doubt it.

I wish their format focused a little more on interesting facts and details and less on humor. Give us more of a deep dive on this stuff.

Not sure how Kevin Smith was in any way relevant to TMNT

In terms with "general geek culture spokesman" I'm OK with him in this. He's earned that, even if he hasn't made a movie I've enjoyed since Clerks II. And he did do a voice in TMNT (2007), after all.

[IMJ]

I thought it was worth watching. But I haven't seen other TMNT documentaries, and although I knew that Eastman and Laird had some kind of falling out, I never knew the details. It was nice seeing that they had a legit connection as friends though.

It was very clear seeing them get together. I know how that can be - have a few buddies in the best years of your life, then fall out although no one really wants to. When you get back together here or there years later its exactly how it was in the past yet it cant be the same ever again. Crazy.

As far as the toys go they touched on the sales and the sculpts probably as much as possible in the time they were given. But I would've liked to see a little bit more on the FW show and something regarding the Archie license. Let's face it - it's those two incarnations that truly converted the franchise into a mega-IP.

[inaheap]

One last thought, did PL's voice sound really frail and old to anyone else? I mean I know he IS old now, but last time I heard him speak he didn't sound like that. He sounded really, "weak" if I could describe it, like frail sounding, I hope he's healthy.

I thought so too.

[CyberCubed]

I hope PL is healthy.

[wpugh2424]

I agree he seemed weak and if you watch closely as he gets up from the chair you can tell he uses some amount of upper body strength to lift himself.

[Vegeta]

It is a bit fascinating that a cartoon constructed simply to sell toys in the 1980s and a film made in that toy mongering era still remains so much better than what nick has currently with its cartoon and recent two films. So many people were defending rise when it came out "iTS NoT FoR YoU" and yet they can't even keep these toys on the shelves because kids don't like that trash either. The tmnt franchise is in a rough spot now but it was interesting to hear about the turtles and their lightning in a bottle rise via so many talented game changers like the he-man guy and chuck lorre.

I just love kevin Eastman's personality. Always comes off as grateful, humble and approachable. Amazing artist, laird too but he's certainly not as lovable.

[Leo656]

So many people were defending rise when it came out "iTS NoT FoR YoU" and yet they can't even keep these toys on the shelves because kids don't like that trash either.

Right? I'm not trying to "bash" and I've been clear that it's not what I want, but the numbers really don't support the "It's for the kids!" argument. Maybe that was the theory behind its creation, but the data suggests that most of the people watching the show and buying the toys are simply the same fans who support anything with a TMNT sticker on it, in the hope the brand doesn't get shelved entirely. And most of those people are around my age.

It's like the defense of the new "Charlie's Angels": "It wasn't for men!" Except women didn't go see it, either. Rise may ostensibly be "For the kids, NOT us!", but... if so, then nobody told the kids they were supposed to care, because those toys collect dust.

((Shrug))

[Vegeta]

I'm not a mcu/Disney guy but striking that balance for adults/kids with action/humor that they've made billions on really would be nice for the tmnt. I haven't really seen it done correctly outside of the first turtle film and the comic books. The 2012 cartoon and now this, its just bleh.

[Leo656]

I'm not a mcu/Disney guy but striking that balance for adults/kids with action/humor that they've made billions on really would be nice for the tmnt. I haven't really seen it done correctly outside of the first turtle film and the comic books. The 2012 cartoon and now this, its just bleh.

They'd have to explore "comedic" opportunities that go deeper than pizza jokes and "Dude, like, DUDE!" stuff.

As we've seen, that's the limit of how much work they want to do. So I wouldn't hold my breath. The "comedy" bits in most TMNT media try way too hard and are not very funny.

Although the fans are as much to blame as anyone else, at times. I mean, people raved about that elevator scene in the first PD film like it was the funniest thing they'd ever seen, and man, that sh*t was ghastly. It just screamed, "This entire movie is just an exercise in stupidity."

I'm not saying TMNT can't have humor, but I agree with you that it really doesn't land most of the time when it's been tried. And "funny" should never be the MAIN objective for anything TMNT-related.

[Coola Yagami]

Right? I'm not trying to "bash" and I've been clear that it's not what I want, but the numbers really don't support the "It's for the kids!" argument. Maybe that was the theory behind its creation, but the data suggests that most of the people watching the show and buying the toys are simply the same fans who support anything with a TMNT sticker on it, in the hope the brand doesn't get shelved entirely. And most of those people are around my age.

It's like the defense of the new "Charlie's Angels": "It wasn't for men!" Except women didn't go see it, either. Rise may ostensibly be "For the kids, NOT us!", but... if so, then nobody told the kids they were supposed to care, because those toys collect dust.

((Shrug))

Y'know, I tell myself I can't be buying action figures anymore cause I'm running out of space to put em and if I move, it just becomes more stuff I'll have to haul or mail out. But dammit, if the figures are cool, I would have bought them.

That said, I'm as big a TMNT and action figure fan as they come... and even I couldn't bring myself to buy those figures. IDK.... the designs.... I was hoping they'd look a bit better in action figure form (like the 2012 TMNT did) but naw. Just couldn't do it.

[Leo656]

I haven't handled any, but they look kinda cheap compared to every other TMNT line of figures that's come out. I could be entirely off-base but that's just how they look to me when I see them on the pegs at the store. I won't be buying them, but anyone who's played with them can feel free to correct me.

I did want the Lair so I could repaint it and use it as a large-scale display for my TMNT figures, but not for $110. They almost had me, though. Colors and "wacky" sh*t aside it's a nice-sized piece with some neat features. I just couldn't justify it at that price, and once it hit Clearance it was sold out in a day. Ah well.

[shawnoen]

Kevin Smith is also a professional comic book writer. He's done Darevevil, Green Arrow, Spider Man, Detective Comics, etc...


Not sure how Kevin Smith was in any way relevant to TMNT, he was already a man grown when it hit big, nor has he been any significant part of TMNT history over the years. No insight from his comments. The guy just wants to be in everything to line his pockets. And I'm still perplexed as hell at him working on Masters.

[d_osborn]

Cosmic TMNT a'la Guardians of the Galaxy would be super fun.

[AquaParade]

This episode did sort of remind me why Playmates TMNT toys were appealing to me back in the day. Lately, I've looked back at those figures and had a hard time understanding the appeal, but the playsets were so damn cool. That original Sewer Lair playset was like the holy grail for me as a kid.

[ABrown]

Watched this the other night. I just started watching these this past week. So far I've watched the TMNT one, the Transformers one, and the He-Man one. Though I really need to rewatch the He-Man one as it really didn't have my full attention when I had it on, so I missed a lot of it.

[pferreira]

Also, can the powers that be f*cking please stop electing Michelle Ivey & "Black Nerd" to be the ambassadors of this fandom?
Poor Michelle and Andre. :lol:

Kevin Smith is also a professional comic book writer. He's done Darevevil, Green Arrow, Spider Man, Detective Comics, etc...Yeah because of his king of geek culture status from making geek related comedies. ;)

It is a bit fascinating that a cartoon constructed simply to sell toys in the 1980s and a film made in that toy mongering era still remains so much better than what nick has currently with its cartoon and recent two films.Wait just a second! I was under the impression the FW series did well based on the toys alone. These truth bombs man... :D

Not sure how Kevin Smith was in any way relevant to TMNT, he was already a man grown when it hit big, nor has he been any significant part of TMNT history over the years. No insight from his comments. The guy just wants to be in everything to line his pockets. And I'm still perplexed as hell at him working on Masters.Oh that man is annoying...Well apparently Smith is considered by the Internet as the king of geek culture so he has to turn up in geek documentaries as well as rebooted franchise movies. :roll: