TMNT Shredder in Hell #5 Preview & Discussion

[AlZarkovski]

First look:

https://is3-ssl.mzstatic.com/image/thumb/Publication113/v4/b9/6f/24/b96f24c8-fd5c-4ff2-366a-64f2cbc0d58f/img_2.jpg/900x0w.jpghttps://is5-ssl.mzstatic.com/image/thumb/Publication123/v4/4d/08/a8/4d08a8a2-73c0-d30b-5c5e-41e294d3ad7f/img_3.jpg/900x0w.jpghttps://is3-ssl.mzstatic.com/image/thumb/Publication123/v4/3c/bc/c1/3cbcc17f-a9d8-a029-d187-d07183340735/img_4.jpg/900x0w.jpg

[ProphetofGanja]

Damn, Santolouco’s style is always so cinematic

Al, thanks for always bringing us the fire sneak previews!

[AlZarkovski]

Al, thanks for always bringing us the fire sneak previews!
You are welcome! :toops:

[AlZarkovski]

Full preview (http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stories/1912/03/tmntshredder5.htm).

[oldmanwinters]

It's finally here!

Maybe Hell finally froze over? :tlol:

[AlZarkovski]

Shredder in Production Hell.:tsmile:

[ChosenOne]

So is Kitsune just depicting what's going on in the afterlife to her art, or is she actually influencing events? And is her spirit torn between loyalty to the Dragon and "love" (if we can call it that) for Saki? Hmm...

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Shredder in Production Hell.:tsmile:

I laughed. I also cursed a bit, because damn, this mini-series has been terrible at keeping any semblance of a schedule.

So is Kitsune just depicting what's going on in the afterlife to her art, or is she actually influencing events? And is her spirit torn between loyalty to the Dragon and "love" (if we can call it that) for Saki? Hmm...

I suspect the latter...

[Igglet]

what year is it

[Igglet]

wait what the **** doomsday clock is ending this month too

[daggio]

I definitely think that we are gonna see some connection between the end of this mini (finally:lol:) and what we saw in 99.

I am curious tho on what role Aka is gonna play here. If I remember correctly, Tom released a sneak preview of sorts on his twitter some time ago showing Aka talking to Kitsune while she paints. Maybe we are gonna find out Aka has other agendas here?:teek:

[ProphetofGanja]

https://media1.tenor.com/images/c4b23aa541d31d3f6e6b4f1a59ad3228/tenor.gif?itemid=14185403

https://media1.tenor.com/images/297baab55db9672d37d0d1aa855696cf/tenor.gif?itemid=9226526

https://media1.tenor.com/images/7f4c613aad8a38bf83d01b67d58062ba/tenor.gif?itemid=5354943

Alllllll aboard!!! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPWbvXeARaQ) (just pretend they're saying "hype" instead :lol:)


https://media1.tenor.com/images/e46e07c6d436a84006e5987b2478f695/tenor.gif?itemid=7554010

[ChosenOne]

https://media1.tenor.com/images/e46e07c6d436a84006e5987b2478f695/tenor.gif?itemid=7554010


For several months now, we've had to imagine the hype. That's a lovely, lovely end to the wait.

[ChosenOne]

Well... Guess I was right about a couple of things while simultaneously off the mark regarding the details. And now we know how #100 should unfold.

This final issue was a very enjoyable read and the best out of the entire mini. Thank you, Mateus!

[ProphetofGanja]

Wow, that was a really good issue. But it needs TMNT #100 to really land that final punch!!! Still, wow that was one hell of a miniseries, I'm gonna need to go back and re-read it and some of the issues from #50 on once #100 drops next week.

Kudos to everyone on the TMNT team at IDW!

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Did not expect that particular sacrifice. Interesting.

A bit too manga for my tastes, but I'm curious to see how it impacts #100.

[hypered1]

Did not expect that particular sacrifice. Interesting.

A bit too manga for my tastes, but I'm curious to see how it impacts #100.

Yeah, that was completely unexpected. Excellent end to this mini series.:tgrin:

[daggio]

Just like everyone, I was completely caught off guard on what happened to her. I was expecting her maybe to become less neutral and fully embrace being like Kitsune and RK, but.......
I wonder if we'll ever see her again, albeit in different form.

I gotta admit, the child in me came out a little bit when Shredder became...Dreamer Shredder and the Dragon became a little like Tatsuo and proceeded to throw down the gauntlet.

Obviously we are gonna have to remember the scenes with Splinter near the end. That'll come in handy next week. :lol:

Maybe I'm off base here, but all of us remember the newly dead, high-tech soldier at the beginning and his comment about finally destroying Earth. I have the feeling that's gonna be something that'll be brought up again down the road.

[CyberCubed]

This issue was very anime. So many anime transformations. So many power ups.

I assume the soldier was some EPF soldier who died in City at War and just came to the afterlife.

[daggio]

I assume the soldier was some EPF soldier who died in City at War and just came to the afterlife.

I was thinking that at first, but he almost seems happy that he thought Earth was destroyed. Maybe I'm just misinterpreting, idk.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

I was thinking that at first, but he almost seems happy that he thought Earth was destroyed. Maybe I'm just misinterpreting, idk.

Um, I'm pretty sure you're misinterpreting. Dude was crapping his pants terrified.

[daggio]

Um, I'm pretty sure you're misinterpreting. Dude was crapping his pants terrified.

And I'm sure that was multiplied twenty times having to witness two giant godlike creatures fighting :lol:

[CyberCubed]

The imp also told the soldier that the war was over, likely meaning the conclusion of city at war. They said time moves differently in this afterlife so all things could be happening at different times in the real world. Seems like the EPF soldier just got unlucky and got killed by a Foot Soldier or mutant or whatever.

[daggio]

The imp also told the soldier that the war was over, likely meaning the conclusion of city at war. They said time moves differently in this afterlife so all things could be happening at different times in the real world. Seems like the EPF soldier just got unlucky and got killed by a Foot Soldier or mutant or whatever.

Yeah, talk about time passing differently...Shredder just got help from Yoshi in the first 4 parts evidently after Yoshi had died, now he gets help from Yoshi before he dies:o

[Igglet]

Wow, one of my predictions was actually right. Dope.

Stellar art as always. To be completely honest, the story of this mini hasn't worked for me, which is surprising since I was completely on-board with it during the first issue. A lot of stuff happened, but like, it usually revolved around things I had no emotional attachment to, or it answered questions I never found myself asking. Like, at first I thought this mini would be about making people interested in the mystic elements of the run, but instead it relied on people already caring about them. Aka's death was pretty cool, but let's be honest here, show of hands... who here ACTUALLY cared about her?

I had also hoped the story would actually be about Saki's redemption. And, while it was to some degree, I genuinely felt like Saki completed his entire road to redemption except for the very last step or two in the first issue, and spent the rest of its run just spinning around in one place.

I really don't like being a buzzkill but I just think the only thing of quality here is the art. I understand I might be in the minority on this but i personally just hope the Pantheon are out of the picture post-#100 because I have absolutely no interest in them and think they've easily been the biggest misstep of this whole run.

[ChosenOne]

Wow, one of my predictions was actually right. Dope.

What was yours? I remember predicting there would some sort of sacrifice involved in bringing the Dragon back, but I figured it would be Karai and not Aka.

This issue made Kitsune a lot more interesting in my eyes.

[Igglet]

What was yours? I remember predicting there would some sort of sacrifice involved in bringing the Dragon back, but I figured it would be Karai and not Aka.

This issue made Kitsune a lot more interesting in my eyes."

Mine was that afterlife transcended time, so the Splinter guiding Saki was actually post-death Splinter. I guess it's still not 100% confirmed but I'd say it's as close as you can get.

[neatoman]

Anybody thinking the skull will have a role to play?

[ChosenOne]

Anybody thinking the skull will have a role to play?

Quite likely, even if it's merely symbolic.

[Utrommaniac]

Huh, I'd thought about imagining the Dragon Lord with Keith David's Goliath voice, and then that was validated. Nice.

So much for the Phoenix being her mother though, so...great.

[CyberCubed]

So it is supposed to be creepy Kitsune loves both Shredder and her father, and now they're in the same body? Like...what? Is this some sort of incest thing?

[ChosenOne]

So it is supposed to be creepy Kitsune loves both Shredder and her father, and now they're in the same body? Like...what? Is this some sort of incest thing?

Kitsune is Melisandre (resurrected with fire... nice...) and Cersei rolled into one.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

So it is supposed to be creepy Kitsune loves both Shredder and her father, and now they're in the same body? Like...what? Is this some sort of incest thing?

It's all the rage these days, VanillaCubed. All the Lannister kids are doing it.

To be completely honest, the story of this mini hasn't worked for me, which is surprising since I was completely on-board with it during the first issue.

Aka's death was pretty cool, but let's be honest here, show of hands... who here ACTUALLY cared about her?

I had also hoped the story would actually be about Saki's redemption. And, while it was to some degree, I genuinely felt like Saki completed his entire road to redemption except for the very last step or two in the first issue, and spent the rest of its run just spinning around in one place.

I really don't like being a buzzkill but I just think the only thing of quality here is the art. I understand I might be in the minority on this but i personally just hope the Pantheon are out of the picture post-#100 because I have absolutely no interest in them and think they've easily been the biggest misstep of this whole run.

I feel ya. That and the terrible release schedule really killed my buzz for the mini-series.

The first issue or two was great, but it just got... weird? And not bad weird, but like Morrison levels of "what is even happening and why is this still going" weird. I feel like this mini-series should have been cut by an issue, maybe even two, and it would have provided a more concise and engaging story.

Aka getting killed was her at her most interesting. :tlol:

The Pantheon in general has bored me, but I do like Rat King and Kitsune both independently (even if their storylines have dragged on and on and on). And, of course, Toad Baron.

If I can keep those three characters and lose the rest of the Pantheon, I'd be fine. But having the Rat King so overpowered and so detached from stories is a huge misstep if you ask me. Bring him down a level or five, involve him more directly, and let stuff get creepy.

[CyberCubed]

Kitsune and Rat King are two of my favorite characters of the book, and of course Toad Baron, but yeah the rest of the Pantheon is a mixed bag. But that's mainly because they hardly get any screentime. Jagwar has still to date never gotten a spotlight or solo issue, Manmoth only got 1, and Gothano was just briefly touched upon. And Aka was just there as a weird ally but never did much.

But as long as Rat King and Kitsune continue to be up to mischief, I'm fine with it.

[Igglet]

I feel ya. That and the terrible release schedule really killed my buzz for the mini-series.

The first issue or two was great, but it just got... weird? And not bad weird, but like Morrison levels of "what is even happening and why is this still going" weird. I feel like this mini-series should have been cut by an issue, maybe even two, and it would have provided a more concise and engaging story.

Aka getting killed was her at her most interesting. :tlol:

The Pantheon in general has bored me, but I do like Rat King and Kitsune both independently (even if their storylines have dragged on and on and on). And, of course, Toad Baron.

If I can keep those three characters and lose the rest of the Pantheon, I'd be fine. But having the Rat King so overpowered and so detached from stories is a huge misstep if you ask me. Bring him down a level or five, involve him more directly, and let stuff get creepy.

Ditto on pretty much everything you said, I agree wholeheartedly. Rat King's got so much potential, and yet his role basically boils down to him being a looming threat, even in his own arc. I mean, the same can be said about most of the Pantheon, honestly. The story TELLS us they're supposed to be a big deal and has a habit of repeating it over and over again, and yet they don't give us actual reasons to be afraid of them. The first time the Dragon appeared, the big bad, the most powerful entity in the IDW TMNT universe, he got into a fist fight with a shapeshifting Shredder. That's not how you make him seem intimidating.

You know what's funny? I think the only time a member of the Pantheon was done right was in the Ghostbusters crossover, which is really sad. And also, Toad Baron. Toad Baron was done really well in my opinion.

EDIT: I also really like Gothano, but he hasn't been relevant in the story yet so there's no way to know if he'd actually be compelling if he popped up more than twice.

[Igglet]

Also, I'm sorry to whine and moan again, but does anyone else feel like the Pantheon was forced into City at War just because the team thought they HAD to shove them in there? I genuinely believe they do not fit into this at all, and that the story would've been far, FAR more compelling without them.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Also, I'm sorry to whine and moan again, but does anyone else feel like the Pantheon was forced into City at War just because the team thought they HAD to shove them in there? I genuinely believe they do not fit into this at all, and that the story would've been far, FAR more compelling without them.

Also agreed. The Dragon bursting out to, I guess, unite all the warring factions seems... interesting. Like maybe it'll be good, but it feel really, really weird.

[CyberCubed]

Also, I'm sorry to whine and moan again, but does anyone else feel like the Pantheon was forced into City at War just because the team thought they HAD to shove them in there? I genuinely believe they do not fit into this at all, and that the story would've been far, FAR more compelling without them.

No, this was the climax of the arc. Kitsune bringing back Shredder is what this arc was majorly about. Otherwise it would just be Karai and Bishop forces going against each other.

Also Rat King was likely included to be a nod toward Ratking and Splinter interacting in Mirage’s City at War.

[hypered1]

One thing I've realized us that Kitsune's betrayal is her revenge for Aka giving April a magic feather to break her hold over Alopex back in issue #60.

[Igglet]

No, this was the climax of the arc. Kitsune bringing back Shredder is what this arc was majorly about. Otherwise it would just be Karai and Bishop forces going against each other.

Also Rat King was likely included to be a nod toward Ratking and Splinter interacting in Mirage’s City at War.

A climax that was absolutely undeserved, without a proper buildup, leading to what I found to be a genuinely comical hijacking of the story by Kitsune. No, the arc would not have just ended with the Foot Clan and EPF battle going on in #99. The fact that, by removing the Pantheon, you would be left with that is simply a matter of circumstances - circumstances that the writers themselves are responsible for. Of course, if the story wasn't leading towards this moment, it would've unfolded far differently. The point is that it should not have led towards this moment, or if it did, the road towards it should have been far different, as the way the Pantheon was integrated into the story was, in my personal opinion, outright bad.

The fact that Rat King was included as a homage doesn't make it any better whatsoever. If something that takes up a significant portion of a very important arc has no purpose in it other than as homage, then leave it out. It feels cheap and hollow.

I realize I'm being very harsh, but I genuinely don't have any ill intent and wish all the best to the whole team, I think the work they've done on this run is great, which is why I'm even putting in the effort to write these rants. No hate towards anyone who's enjoying this either, I just disagree with the points raised here.

[daggio]

I'm in the middle of these two opinions. I agree, I feel that the Kitsune/Dragon aspect came into City at War at the 11th hour when the entire plot(s) didn't have Kitsune in it (except that 3-part prelude where she tried to convince Karai to take what's hers with force). I guess if SiH had been completed back in the Summer, maybe that would've cushioned the blow so-to-speak of Kitsune appearing in the final half of 99. Yet, I guess this Dragon plot does deserve to occupy 100. It's been simmering since (theoretically) Secret History of the Foot Clan. Waiting longer would've probably just made us the audience less interested.

One thing I kinda hope here is that the completion of the Dragon story doesn't fully finish in this one issue. If the Dragon is permanently put away quickly after all this buildup I think, personally, I'll be a little disappointed. Granted, the Technodrome was disabled as quickly as it was activated, but it's still ominously around. Is the Dragon gonna be slayed or is he gonna somehow survive, but be some sort of ominous character like Sauron?

[ChosenOne]

With a threat this big, literally, it'll probably be do or die. I don't think the Dragon will be back after this.

[daggio]

With a threat this big, literally, it'll probably be do or die. I don't think the Dragon will be back after this.

I guess I'll be disappointed then :x
At least the Technodrome was constantly referenced as a gigantic threat over and over again in the many issues preceding it. Here, yes, we know the Dragon is a destroyer, but there's so many other things happening that that threat hasn't been given the referencing it deserves.

I just realized how much this Dragon plot reminds me of season 5 of the 4kids cartoon.

[Zog The Magnificent]

I don't think it necessarily has to be do or die. They just have to seal him away again, allowing him to go back to the background until the moment when the Pantheon finally takes center stage, bringing him back for the grand finale, at which point he can be destroyed for good. The Pantheon is the backbone of the the whole comic. When they go, the book goes too.

[ChosenOne]

I don't think it necessarily has to be do or die. They just have to seal him away again, allowing him to go back to the background until the moment when the Pantheon finally takes center stage, bringing him back for the grand finale, at which point he can be destroyed for good. The Pantheon is the backbone of the the whole comic. When they go, the book goes too.

What I meant to say, and I realize I could've phrased that better, is that these sort of things tend to happen that way in fiction. There's only so many times a major apocalyptical threat can be unleashed, sealed away, rinse and repeat, until it starts to feel incredibly stale. Most writers get around that problem by only letting it happen once. The most recent example I can think of is Trigon in the Titans TV show, even though he might pop up again at some point... There was so much hype and he was done away with in less than twenty minutes. It's often the journey undergone by the characters that matters most, not the end point of having to fight some all-consuming being all the time. If we see the big bad being taken down once, the second time loses much or all of its luster.

[MikeandRaph87]

So Aka was killed? I did not realize the Pantheon could die. Trapped perhaps, but not killed.

Oroku Saki is reformed and only agreed to join the dragon because the free will and love he was allowed he belives will be key to stopping the dragon fighting it within and appealing to Kitsune. Interesting approach. It could be everyone (that includes Karai's group) vs The Dragon. There are shades of the 5th season finale of the 2003 series here. Only instead of an avatar of Hamto Yoshi an avatar of Oroku Saki will slay the demonic dragon.

[Ninjinister]

Anybody thinking the skull will have a role to play?

Does it look like Rat King to anybody else...?

[ChosenOne]

So Aka was killed? I did not realize the Pantheon could die. Trapped perhaps, but not killed.

Well, the Dragon himself was killed at some point, wasn't he?

My best guess is that destruction of their physical forms is the closest thing they can get to dying like mortals do and their essences linger on, but bringing them back to life is an exceptionally difficult process which ensures that they might as well stay dead for good. Until now.

[Zog The Magnificent]

What I meant to say, and I realize I could've phrased that better, is that these sort of things tend to happen that way in fiction. There's only so many times a major apocalyptical threat can be unleashed, sealed away, rinse and repeat, until it starts to feel incredibly stale. Most writers get around that problem by only letting it happen once. The most recent example I can think of is Trigon in the Titans TV show, even though he might pop up again at some point... There was so much hype and he was done away with in less than twenty minutes. It's often the journey undergone by the characters that matters most, not the end point of having to fight some all-consuming being all the time. If we see the big bad being taken down once, the second time loses much or all of its luster.

Thanks for clarifying, I see what you mean. That being said, I wouldn't lose hope just yet. In the hands of a competant writer, there's always a way to make it interesting. I think a good example of this would be the Lich from Adventure Time. If you show a threat being beaten repeadtedly, he becomes less threatening, which is a valid concern with the Dragon here. However, they managed to avert this by having him show up only a few times, and by raising the stakes of his schemes each time. He remained just as creepy and intimidating each time. Even once they basically retired him, he still managed to be a looming threat, but they acknowledged that the characters themselves weren't worried about it anymore. Not that they have to do that exactly with the Dragon. The way I see it here, with the Dragon, is that he's been mentioned a few time. He's a greater threat then the Pantheon, who've served as the looming threat of the entire comic. I figure he can come out once, and they can beat him back, just barely, the idea being that they got lucky and he wasn't yet nearly what he could be, so that it doesn't feel like they really took him down, sort of like the way Darkseid was handled in the DCAU. Then, now that they know exactly what they're dealing with, it can be a recurring plot point about how to prepare for his inevitable return. The Pantheon can take center stage during the final phase of the comic, and then he can get out again, actually do some serious damage to the world before they destroy him for good. You're right in that if he kept showing up, only to be beaten each time, he would very quickly become a joke. But I think if they only use him twice, MAYBE three times, with the first being a sample of his threat and the last being his full unabriged power unleashed, with maybe a minor story in the middle where he's more pulling the strings, then they can have him be a compelling final villain that feels worthy of being the climax of all the remaining character's journeys.

[ChosenOne]

Thanks for clarifying, I see what you mean. That being said, I wouldn't lose hope just yet. In the hands of a competant writer, there's always a way to make it interesting. I think a good example of this would be the Lich from Adventure Time. If you show a threat being beaten repeadtedly, he becomes less threatening, which is a valid concern with the Dragon here. However, they managed to avert this by having him show up only a few times, and by raising the stakes of his schemes each time. He remained just as creepy and intimidating each time. Even once they basically retired him, he still managed to be a looming threat, but they acknowledged that the characters themselves weren't worried about it anymore. Not that they have to do that exactly with the Dragon. The way I see it here, with the Dragon, is that he's been mentioned a few time. He's a greater threat then the Pantheon, who've served as the looming threat of the entire comic. I figure he can come out once, and they can beat him back, just barely, the idea being that they got lucky and he wasn't yet nearly what he could be, so that it doesn't feel like they really took him down, sort of like the way Darkseid was handled in the DCAU. Then, now that they know exactly what they're dealing with, it can be a recurring plot point about how to prepare for his inevitable return. The Pantheon can take center stage during the final phase of the comic, and then he can get out again, actually do some serious damage to the world before they destroy him for good. You're right in that if he kept showing up, only to be beaten each time, he would very quickly become a joke. But I think if they only use him twice, MAYBE three times, with the first being a sample of his threat and the last being his full unabriged power unleashed, with maybe a minor story in the middle where he's more pulling the strings, then they can have him be a compelling final villain that feels worthy of being the climax of all the remaining character's journeys.

That's certainly a possibility as well. Though given how much importance has just been put on Saki and his link to the Dragon being the key to defeating it (this time?), it seems safe to say that at least that avenue won't be exploited again if the big bad is ever to make his return.

Only time will tell, though, and fortunately not too much of it. Less than a week away!

[CyberCubed]

So Aka was killed? I did not realize the Pantheon could die. Trapped perhaps, but not killed..

Well if you read Kitsune's dialogue, she flat out said the sword can take the life of a god and make them mortal. So yes, Aka is dead.

I did love how Aka thought Kitsune was going to sacrifice herself, and then kills her instead. That was great because she didn't see it coming, even though we the readers might have.

[ChosenOne]

How awfully convenient to have a weapon like that lying around for the big showdown... Would be rad if Alopex got the killing blow on Kitsune.

[CyberCubed]

Would be rad if Alopex got the killing blow on Kitsune.

lol, now we know how that turned out

[ChosenOne]

lol, now we know how that turned out

Well, she got her licks in and put a stop to Kitsune's plan for sure. And who knows, they're both still alive... :D

[ToTheNines]

So what, if anything, was the narrative link between this and #100? Maybe I’m just an idiot, but they seem pretty contradictory.

[ChosenOne]

So what, if anything, was the narrative link between this and #100? Maybe I’m just an idiot, but they seem pretty contradictory.

I agree that the final scene of the mini (Kitsune speaking to an already partially-resurrected Dragon) didn't mesh well with the events of #100, but the most important development was that the entity she brought back in Saki's body wasn't just the Dragon itself, but a construct that included Saki's soul. That's what allowed Splinter to reach him and ultimately turn the tide of the battle. The whole mini tells the story of how Saki came to make that decision, of allowing himself to be used as a part of the Dragon's plan, in order to fight him from within. At least that's how I see it. Maybe others can explain this better than me.