Does anyone else feel disillusioned with their fandom? [Archive]

snake

11-23-2019, 11:50 PM

So, I don't make a lot of posts here anymore. I still browse, but I don't engage as much as I used to, or like to. I'm not sure what it is, but I've been disinterested and disappointed with the recent handling of the TMNT, and I think its effected my interest.

I've been a lifelong fan. The 2k12 era was a shining beacon of hope for a lot of us here, myself included. The new show was passable, the IDW comic (at the time) was excellent, and there seemed to be actual interest in the property again. Now, the Platinum Dunes movie absolutely killed all chances of a full blown TMNT renaissance, but we were pretty damn close.

Still, it's all over now. The public has- for the most part- moved on. I should say that I love what I've seen from Rise. It's new, different, and beautifully animated. Rise is what I've been asking for out of new incarnations for years- something different. Unfortunately, most of the fandom has rejected Rise (probably because they're missing the point of that show entirely), and Nick doesn't seem to care too much about it either. It's disheartening to see this happen to a show that has so much heart put into it.

IDW, I've personally felt was in decline following #50. The bloated cast, lack of outlets to tell stories, and overall "eh"ness of the recent arcs have basically reduced by interest in the book. I haven't even read 90-100 yet. It's a shame, because I really enjoyed everything up to #50, and can reread that any day. They've already cemented themselves in my head as classic comics. Jennika is cool, and makes me want to pick up the book again, but I'm afraid she'll just get lost in the character shuffle, like the Turtles themselves have been.

The chances of a new film are in the realm of "not happening", new video games is a joke, and I doubt Nick is going to make another show anytime soon after Rise bombed. It seems that the only area of the fandom that is getting anything are the array of cool toys coming out from Super7 and NECA, among others. Thank god Playmates opened up the license. Unfortunately, I don't have the space or cash to collect these, but I'm happy they're being made. Though, this all leads to one startling conclusion.

The future of the TMNT will forever be the past. Tied to that godforsaken sh*tty cartoon from the 80s, we will never get something innovative and new again. They tried, and Rise failed. Expect whatever the next incarnation is to be a full on remake of the "retro" TMNT, because that's what sells, and that's what the public knows and likes. Such is the sad state of TMNT from it's inception- so much potential, but hindered because no one outside this forum even cares enough to do anything about it. The people who care about this franchise outside of being a Hot Topic T-Shirt or a wacky fixture of the 80s and 90s are a minority. In fact, they're all probably here, and that's how it's going to be in the future as well. I give IDW a quiet death at 150, and then it's nothing but OT shilling until it doesn't sell anymore.

I'm not sure how it got to this point, but I just don't care anymore. I realized this entire franchise is now a corporate vehicle for recreating the toy sales in the 80s and 90s, and that's all it will ever be. Does anyone else find their interest dwindling? Would any of you actually care about the TMNT if not for this forum?

Leo656

11-24-2019, 01:01 AM

Zog The Magnificent

11-24-2019, 02:02 AM

I've never lost hope. For me, each version of TMNT is just more TMNT for me to enjoy. Each one will be different, each one will do things that have been done before, and each one brings something new to the table. There isn't a single version of TMNT that I dislike. Even if we can mostly agree that TMNT III is a bad movie, for example, I still watch it and get some enjoyment out of it. I guess I'm sort of a passive fan. Like, I've read every comic and seen every show and movie, but I never hate what the new ones do. I mean sure, there are individual things I may not like, but I don't let that ruin my overall enjoyment. I just roll with it. I accept it for what it is and see what it will do, and allow myself to get pulled along for the ride. I think every version of TMNT is pretty good in its own way. I have my favorites, sure. But that's never going to stop me from engaging with the new one, even if it's as far away from my favorite TMNT as it can possibly be. Even if the motivation is to sell toys, who cares? There have been some pretty great shows that resulted from a toy selling standpoint. If you don't look at the big picture, the cynical whys behind each show or comic, and just take each version as what it is in itself, you can always find something to enjoy. I know some people have a favorite and swear by it, and that's fine if you do. I've always felt like that position makes less sense, because then you're always dissatisfied and yearning for something that isn't anymore. Better to take what comes and find whatever enjoyment you can rather than cling to what was. Anyways, those are my thoughts on the matter.

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan

11-24-2019, 04:00 AM

I guess the IDW Comics and Rise of the TMNT will change the franchise forever, with totally changing so much of the backgrounds for the characters.

TommyT

11-24-2019, 05:15 AM

It’s unfortunate you don’t see the upside. Turtles has been, and continues to be a brand people of a certain age, remember with great love. Today, there’s more content than ever, especially with tick tock, instagram, youtube, and gaming.
Most of them, don’t care for turtles, anymore than they care for Star Wars. Pushing this on them, while ignoring the established fan base, who is of age to enjoy a sci fi adventure series written for adults, is asinine. Joker did it, and to an extent Venom did as well. Game of Thrones, The Boys, and now Watchmen and Mandelorian. All for adults, if written slightly younger.
Turtles should have a chance, to be done properly, not a goofy kids show.
The fans are ready, and have been waiting for decades.

80gmrp

11-24-2019, 05:30 AM

I guess the IDW Comics and Rise of the TMNT will change the franchise forever, with totally changing so much of the backgrounds for the characters.

This I’d agree with a bit, though I honestly don’t like much of what was changed, especially where Donnie is concerned...

That in mind, while I disagree with the OP about Rise and how popular it is (I even have at least two friends outside the fandom praising it), I do agree with the whole point of this thread: I feel a bit disillusioned as well. I guess for me, the disillusionment was in part because of fandom drama, but moreso because of the current state of the franchise itself: my opinion on Rise aside, I do have my own concerns about the IDW comics as well, though the Batman vs TMNT movie was overall great to me.

I also agree with the concern shared by some here that most people only care about the 80s cartoon, which is really frustrating to me not only because it wasn’t its only era, let alone the first ever (that’s reserved for the Mirage comics), but also because of how much better some of the other eras were, particularly 2003 and, to a lesser extent, 2012 imo.

Leofan26

11-24-2019, 08:40 AM

Wait, they put a lot of heart into the series? I must have missed something than, why would they make fun of Leo fans if they did? They feel like they know what makes the fandom tick when that's not true at all. Animation can be pretty at times but other than that I'm not feeling it. I loved the 2012 and 2003 series though, I heard they are making another series after Rise ends which I guess from word going around is getting canned when the second season ends. I heard they are going to focus more on the 80s type version but hopefully they just mean having it return to the original formula not this Rise mess.

Prowler

11-24-2019, 08:58 AM

While I was excited about Nick initially buying the franchise, I tried watching a few of the first episodes back in 2012-2013 and it just didn't do much for me. And let's not forget the Bay monstrosities. Platinum Dunes take on TMNT pretty much killed my love for the property.

At this point TMNT has gotten to a point where I can't even tell what it is anymore. Back in 2009 there were already significant differences between versions, but it was still easy to tell what TMNT was about and every take on the property resonated with me to a certain degree, except for The Next Mutation, that is, but that crap left zero legacy or permanent scars in the property. If anything I thought it would have been a good lesson for people to learn not to do something lousy with the Turtles again... but clearly people don't learn, and the Bay turds topped it as the worst Turtles thing ever. And sadly, it made more money and was more successful. It's one thing if the cartoons don't appeal you, but when the live action movies are worse then you just lose motivation.

You see, I grew up watching reruns of the FW series in the late 90s and early 2000s. Then I watched the first movie when I was 11-12 or so and 2k3 around 13 and felt like the Turtles were growing with me. The 2k3 series also was very different from the FW series and it didn't try to replicate it. But clearly the powers-that-be since then are only interested in trying to replicate the 1987-1992 FW TurtleMania success. Sure, it's smart because it makes more money, but I'm not interested in taking any part in that. It's obvious that I'm no the target audience for the Turtles anymore. And I don't mean that in terms of age only. Nick are clearly trying to appeal to an audience which I'm not a part of.

I'll just keep my Fred Wolf, NES/SNES/MD videogames, first 3 live action films and 2k3 memories. Not to mention will try to read more Mirage issues in the upcoming years. That's enough TMNT material to keep me entertained for the rest of my life.

AquaParade

11-24-2019, 09:05 AM

I'm not really sure, to be honest. I guess I don't expect much at this point, so I'm pleased with what does appeal to me. Neca movie figures, Injustice dlc, the occasional IDW or 2k12 collectible or story.
It's not much, compared to other characters & universes I'm interested in, but it's something to appreciate.

I do sort of wish things had gone differently over the last decade or so. There should have been more for the older demographic by now, and the movies have been a series of disappointments that have, at least, snubbed the potential of the franchise, if not outright harmed it.

Again, the question, for me, really comes down to expectations.

Powder

11-24-2019, 10:33 AM

I agree with a lot of what you said, I had the same unfortunate realization myself a while back. It's why I, too, don't post here as much anymore (that, & how it seems the majority of folks left here are just compulsive nitpickers). I still do & always will love the TMNT as much as I ever have, but between my life changing & the fandom stagnating, that green fire which always burned behind my eyes isn't quite as bright. & in some ways, that's a good thing, because my fixation on TMNT has at times bordered on unhealthy. These days, thanks to having a partner to share things with, I'm able to indulge in other properties more, which broadens my interests & makes for more positive social experiences, fandom wise, as ours is one of the more derisive ones. So that's nice. Been going ham on Godzilla for a year or longer.

Like you, I adore Rise, but the metric f*ck-ton of blindly biased opposition (be it closed-mindedness or genwunnerism) toward it has definitely put a damper on my enjoyment of the "community" & my willingness to take part in, or contribute to it. Conversely, I've found TMNT groups outside of here, that are way more active & knowledgeable (in specific aspects of TMNT, mind you), so when I do want to scratch that itch I am able to do so with people of more measured temperaments. I've also become good friends with a really cool Rise fan-artist, with whom I am able to discuss the series, something you can't do virtually anywhere, outside of Tumblr, which, well, ya know, no thanks. For the most part, the few people who do post about it here, only watch it so they can bitch about it, failing to grasp it will never be what they want it to. It never marketed itself as anything but something wildly different & comedy focused, so why anyone continues to begrudgingly follow it expecting a sudden 180 into darkness & drama, is beyond me.

I still follow & enjoy the IDW comics, but there's a lot about the series I don't care for, so while I do look forward to them, I don't have a great deal to say. Well, to be more specific, it's just overcrowded & feels a bit formulaic (dramatic arcs written for trade). It doesn't feel like the TMNT are special in that universe, or even the stars of their own book, not to mention they seldom get any down-time. The art direction & new characters are always baller, that's what keeps me coming back.

On a whole, I remain happy with Viacom's TMNT output. Didn't care for Bayturtles, but I think the track record's been pretty good otherwise. But, as you say, it's clear that the dependence on Fred Wolf stuff isn't going anywhere anytime soon, so I am not terribly optimistic about the immediate future of the property or fandom right now, hence my taking a step back. I can't afford to invest so much of myself in it anymore. Frankly, I'm bored to death with "classic" TMNT. That Batman movie bored the sh*t out of me. I'd gladly welcome continuations of the Henson film universe, or Mirage, in the hands of those who actually wet their beaks in those worlds, but otherwise, I want more NEW stuff, like Rise, which I can plainly see now probably won't happen.

80gmrp

11-24-2019, 10:52 AM

IMJ

11-24-2019, 11:21 AM

Here are some solid examples that I hope will either give you perspective, or at least be hopeful. If you think TMNT fandom has seen real disappointment, consider the following.

Consider being an Iron Man fan for 30 years only to have the excitement of a B-List character become a household name through film, but then have to smile through the lackluster Iron Man 2. Then sit in a theater with "normies" during the completely offensive Iron Man 3. After that, watch the character go toe-to-toe with Thanos, but then in the follow-up whimsically travel through time only to witness the character's death amidst a never-resolved ten rings plot and a completely non-cannon daughter. And afterwards, sit there and listen to "normie movie-goers" discuss how they "had" to kill the character and then claim to be "in-the-know" by citing how the kid from Iron Man 3 (non-canon Shane Black addition to the story) becomes the next Iron Man. Most regular movie goers would think I'm nuts, but those people were only there for the movies and take whatever Marvel feeds them as gold.

Consider being a Star Trek fan since watching he TOS re-runs Sundays with your mom and dad before TNG aired. Loving the franchise and the movies, until the IP disappears to years and years only to be rekindled by mediocre Abrams Trek, and even worse through a new show overran by SJW nonsense and invasive political correctness, ironically abbreviated as "STD". But Picard has made me hopeful about the IP again. But I'm not afraid to let the crap parts of a franchise ruin my entire fandom for me.

My point? Fandom can be something that ebbs and flows. I've stuck out most of Iron Man's dips, but I'm a hard core collector for that character. I've stuck with TMNT, but my level of interest comes and goes with the strength of the property. No big deal. You can put something down for a while and come back to it and still be more of a long-term hardcore fan than most people. No big deal. :)

Coola Yagami

11-24-2019, 11:46 AM

I probably wouldn't. I haven't really cared much since the Nick buyout. Nothing they've put out has appealed to me and I don't see that changing.

I'm sure it's partly them and partly me. I get that they're forever going to aim only at kids, and that's their prerogative, but I've said before that I could only ever get excited again about a TMNT product that's in the vein of the 1990 movie. It's the only thing about the brand that's consistently held my interest and brought me joy, everything else I either don't like or have to be in the mood for, nowadays.

That's apparently my preferred "flavor" of TMNT, and we're never getting any more of that, so yeah, I kind of don't really care anymore.

I do wonder Leo, I know the 1990 movie followed more of the Mirage plot than the 'power the Technodrome' plot, plots that would never have been seen had 2003 and 2012 not decided to incorporate them as well. However, despite the more serious tone and the fact that the Turtles had to come to grips to potentially losing their father and all that, were you able to stomach all the 'cool!' 'radical!' 'bodacious!' 'pizza! cowabunga!' that the movie was chockfull of, or was it not bad enough to ruin the experience?

CyberCubed

11-24-2019, 02:07 PM

As long as we get new cartoons and IDW keeps going, there's always stuff to look forward to. I fell off of Rise pretty quickly, but I'll watch it all when it ends. Even then I don't bother anyone who genuinely likes it, that's why I don't post in the Rise section much because I haven't watched the show enough to form a real opinion on it.

As for IDW, I think the best way to describe it is how "crowded" it is. It takes them forever to cover plotlines and characters, no fault to the writers, but how the book is set-up. We literally wait YEARS for plots to get a move on, they're still doing the same exact Pantheon stuff with Kitsune and Rat King from 50+ issues ago! We still have all the same villains around besides Shredder/Krang from issue 50 too...which makes it feel like a lack of progressions.

Again no fault to the writers, most of IDW is good, but it just takes forever for things to happen.

Zog The Magnificent

11-24-2019, 03:19 PM

I dunno, I guess it's never felt like a lack of progression for me. I'm very used to the slow burn approach in storytelling, so I've never minded the wait.

Leo656

11-24-2019, 04:47 PM

I do wonder Leo, I know the 1990 movie followed more of the Mirage plot than the 'power the Technodrome' plot, plots that would never have been seen had 2003 and 2012 not decided to incorporate them as well. However, despite the more serious tone and the fact that the Turtles had to come to grips to potentially losing their father and all that, were you able to stomach all the 'cool!' 'radical!' 'bodacious!' 'pizza! cowabunga!' that the movie was chockfull of, or was it not bad enough to ruin the experience?

All of that feels like a reasonable concession in order to get the rest of the movie made. It didn't bother me then (as I was too young to know differently) and still doesn't now.

Oddly enough, as a kid I was fanatical about the FW cartoon (and Archie comics). I didn't even realize that by 1990 I was getting a bit tired of the formula, until I saw the movie, and suddenly it was like, "Oh, okay, THAT'S what I want TMNT to be like." It had enough resemblance to the cartoon by way of the characters' personalities to be familiar, but was also grounded and "real" enough to be engaging for people over the age of 9. To this day I sometimes get a rare opportunity to "smarten up" someone of a certain age who's never seen (or even heard of) the film, and it always gets a rave reaction, especially from people who only know of the brand through toys and cartoons. Usually something like, "I didn't think they'd ever make a REAL movie about this kinda thing!" (as opposed to the expected farce that the name implies to most people). Sometimes one of them will have seen or be familiar with the Bay disasters, and in turn will wonder out loud, "WHY don't they just keep it like that first movie? That was good! Why do they keep making it silly?" I don't have a good answer. Never did.

Anyway. The cartoon concessions of the original film were a very small price to pay in exchange for the only TMNT product that's ever had "true" cross-over appeal between fans, non-fans, and people of all ages. If it was 100% Mirage it would probably have been so "dry" and unfamiliar to the casual audience that it would have lost a lot of the charm that gives it its unique appeal. I'm not a fan of the pizza/"Cowabunga" sh*t but I understand that it's never going away at this point. The first movie was extremely tame with it compared to everything else that's come since. It didn't bother me then, and nowadays all I can think of is how they showed such incredible restraint.

Interesting question.

ABrown

11-24-2019, 05:23 PM

Unfortunately, none of the franchises that I love seem to be putting out anything that I'm really interested in over the last couple of years. I have zero interest in Rise of the TMNT, Transformers Cyberverse, or Star Wars Resistance. And I won't even be giving Thundercats Go! (or whatever it's going to be called) a chance. I really only watch Netflix's She-Ra and Princesses of Power because I'm curious to see what they do with the franchise. I am going to check out Netflix and Kevin Smith's He-Man. So I guess I've got that to look forward to.

PApagreg

11-24-2019, 10:50 PM

Still, it's all over now. The public has- for the most part- moved on. I should say that I love what I've seen from Rise. It's new, different, and beautifully animated. Rise is what I've been asking for out of new incarnations for years- something different. Unfortunately, most of the fandom has rejected Rise (probably because they're missing the point of that show entirely), and Nick doesn't seem to care too much about it either. It's disheartening to see this happen to a show that has so much heart put into it.

If there is one thing I learned about this forums is that most people don't care about animation, to them unless a character has 20 lines across their face its "generic" or "Cal-Arts Style" which is a shame because like you said Rise is beautifully animated and its a shame not a lot of people here don't even recognize that aspect of the show. I'm not going to say Rise is perfect but after 2k3 taking inspiration from Mirage, 2k12 combining aspects of 2k3 and OT and IDW pretty much being the Ultimate universe of TMNT should't a new series experiment a little.

Good news is that the series is getting a cult following on Twitter, it aint much but at least there are fans of it.

TommyT

11-24-2019, 11:08 PM

Andrew NDB

11-24-2019, 11:12 PM

All I will say is that since the Nick sale, no, I don't have any hope for a TMNT incarnation that will be even moderately appealing to me. But also, I'm a 38 year-old man... why would it? That said, I won't rule out being "pleasantly surprised" at some point, as maybe some TMNT project in some venue (maybe one subcontracted to another studio) is able to appeal to a wide enough berth that includes me and not the lowest common denominators.

TommyT

11-24-2019, 11:15 PM

Andrew NDB

11-24-2019, 11:21 PM

Don’t we deserve a film for us? Collectively, we have spent billions.
Was that in vein?

Yeah (on the latter). The removal of an actual human heart at the heart of things in 2009 -- as in Peter Laird's (but it could be anybody, if this same situation played out similarly for another franchise) -- in terms of quality control and a singular voice able to say "no, that's garbage" or "ehh... that's dodgy but let me see a modified pitch, like this" removed anyone from the table with any power who would care. I guess people cheered because Peter Laird said bad things to them in the Vol. 4 lettercol but here we are in 2019 with no TMNT that is really... eh, anything that can be rallied behind.

Which isn't to say Rise, or TMNT 2012 didn't have people who care about the TMNT. Like, really care, like as fans like you and I. But they have no power or say in anything, at the end of the day. They aren't decision makers.

TommyT

11-24-2019, 11:30 PM

out similarly for another franchise) I guess people cheered because Peter Laird said bad things to them in the Vol. 4 lettercol but here we are in 2019 with no TMNT.

I don’t recall Laird doing anything to piss off fans, other than delaying the end. What am I missing?

Andrew NDB

11-24-2019, 11:32 PM

I don’t recall Laird doing anything to piss off fans, other than delaying the end. What am I missing?

A lot. Even here, there were a ton of fans -- even close friends of mine -- who claimed to have quit the fandom solely because Peter argued with them in the Vol. 4 lettercol. I sh** you not. I could rattle off a variety off nicks.

I disagreed with him a ton on the lettercol and even had at least one letter printed there, but it never bothered me. It's his treehouse, we're just visiting it.

PApagreg

11-24-2019, 11:38 PM

Can you distinguish between animation and design? The shape of the characters is, simplistic. The animation of Rise, is what is often referred to as limited motion. Limited motion may feel effective, for you, in that the little they do animate, is engaging, but this doesn’t mean it’s good. Good animation, means that the flow between frames is smooth and well done. Animation is not a catch all term. Bay turtles had very good animation, but terrible designs. Rise does not do this. It’s choppy as hell. It’s limited and simple. South Park is an engaging show, but the animation is basic, while Spiderverse had incredibly dynamic animation, that was stepped down in post to give it a stoccato, limited animation feel.

Good animation can mean a number of things sometimes it means it can have inventive techniques such as , composition, key frames, perspective different animation frames, and use of the camera. Don't get me wrong fluidity is nice and all but if you don't have the mentioned you pretty much have something in the vein of one of Hazbin Hotel where the animation is fluid but the composition is poor that it gives the audience sensory overload. Also yes while some scenes of Rise can be choppy almost every episode gives us a Sakuga(or highly animated scene). Take example this scene from Insane in the mama train

https://66.media.tumblr.com/9ab035ae14eb0d59ed24688becdf4f96/dbc68cc2f31a6418-26/s500x750/db455b1e2c7b8ae7736673e89a0db0bbd717bcfc.gif

What you want to say is that you like the design of Rise. You like the style. You like the layouts. Stop saying it’s incredible animation ffs. You sound ignorant.

Dude you called the Turtles "Cal Arts" style of turtles, you yourself are one of the last people on this forum to call anyone ignorant.

TommyT

11-24-2019, 11:50 PM

Good animation can mean a number of things sometimes it means it can have inventive techniques such as , composition, key frames, perspective different animation frames, and use of the camera. Don't get me wrong fluidity is nice and all but if you don't have the mentioned you pretty much have something in the vein of one of Hazbin Hotel where the animation is fluid but the composition is poor that it gives the audience sensory overload. Also yes while some scenes of Rise can be choppy almost every episode gives us a Sakuga(or highly animated scene). Take example this scene from Insane in the mama train

https://66.media.tumblr.com/9ab035ae14eb0d59ed24688becdf4f96/dbc68cc2f31a6418-26/s500x750/db455b1e2c7b8ae7736673e89a0db0bbd717bcfc.gif

Dude you called the Turtles "Cal Arts" style of turtles, you yourself are one of the last people on this forum to call anyone ignorant.
Rise is Cal Arts turtles. Samurai Jack, Powderpuff girls, all garbage art styles, people thumbing their nose at anatomy and perspective in favour of simplified lines and form. Garbage, crap, cal arts, Rise of the TMNT, are synonyms.

If you want to misunderstand the meaning of words, that’s your business, but don’t expect others to follow suit.

TommyT

11-24-2019, 11:54 PM

A lot. Even here, there were a ton of fans -- even close friends of mine -- who claimed to have quit the fandom solely because Peter argued with them in the Vol. 4 lettercol. I sh** you not. I could rattle off a variety off nicks.

I disagreed with him a ton on the lettercol and even had at least one letter printed there, but it never bothered me. It's his treehouse, we're just visiting it.

You know, given spuds up here is looking to derail this thread by further proving his ignorance, maybe let’s go delve into the who and what that created the divide between fans and Laid. It seems to be far more on topic and pertinent to this discussion.

snake

11-24-2019, 11:58 PM

Andrew NDB

11-25-2019, 12:07 AM

You know, given spuds up here is looking to derail this thread by further proving his ignorance, maybe let’s go delve into the who and what that created the divide between fans and Laid. It seems to be far more on topic and pertinent to this discussion.

Lots of old timers around here. Horsetechie, Dawnatello, and a lot of the ladies who did a lot of fanfiction at the time. Many more. Basically a lot of people angry with his stance on things like April's genesis, Splinter's death, and Laird's politics. Particularly his responses to that stuff.

A big point of contention was his "you don't like? Don't read!" And I think he even responded to someone pissed off with, "OK, solution for you. You should keep buying, but just don't read."

It made sense to me, but people got mad. And I think it took a few years but that kind of stuff and those kinds of fans finally wore thin on him. But I have no idea. I wish he never let it get to him.

Read that lettercol, by all means.

TommyT

11-25-2019, 12:30 AM

Lots of old timers around here. Horsetechie, Dawnatello, and a lot of the ladies who did a lot of fanfiction at the time. Many more. Basically a lot of people angry with his stance on things like April's genesis, Splinter's death, and Laird's politics. Particularly his responses to that stuff.

A big point of contention was his "you don't like? Don't read!" And I think he even responded to someone pissed off with, "OK, solution for you. You should keep buying, but just don't read."

It made sense to me, but people got mad. And I think it took a few years but that kind of stuff and those kinds of fans finally wore thin on him. But I have no idea. I wish he never let it get to him.

Read that lettercol, by all means.

Ok, any specific issues? Man, I have a new love for the guy.

@snake - Andy Suriano, also responsible for the look of Samurai Jack, was s teacher at Cal Arts for 6 years, specifically 2010 -2016. Do you need more evidence or can we just agree that you like this schlock, and I hate it. My definition is sound, in all aspects.

Wildcat

11-25-2019, 12:32 AM

I liked Rise. I intend to finish it even if it is canceled after it’s current hiatus.

I do not think the FW cartoon has taken over. There’s merchandise and crossovers but that’s perfectly reasonable given how huge it was.

I don’t see where it’s become all about that though. The Bay movies were the first time the FW cartoon sorta got adapted and they still did not do it well.

Anyway there’s always something new being made in all franchises. Some stuff is better than others. You just have to wait.

CyberCubed

11-25-2019, 08:47 AM

IMJ

11-25-2019, 09:25 AM

The Great Saiyaman

11-25-2019, 09:40 AM

Having watched "The Manhattan project" two-parter just yesterday, I can say: No, I'm not disillusioned by the TMNT Fandom. If anything, seeing as how "Rise" has finally started to get GOOD, I'm getting more amped up.

I'm working on a new fan comic which will be called "quiet time" I have my creative juices working overtime.

And err...Snake what WERE you doing on E-hentai and finding my "A weird world" comic there? :P

Andrew NDB

11-25-2019, 09:58 AM

PApagreg

11-25-2019, 10:09 AM

Rise is Cal Arts turtles. Samurai Jack, Powderpuff girls, all garbage art styles, people thumbing their nose at anatomy and perspective in favour of simplified lines and form. Garbage, crap, cal arts, Rise of the TMNT, are synonyms.

If you want to misunderstand the meaning of words, that’s your business, but don’t expect others to follow suit.

This why I hate the term "Cal Arts" to describe this current trend of artstyles because so many people there worked on different things so by your logic The Iron Giant is "Cal Arts" because a bunch of students from that school worked on that film.

By the way Rise, PowerPuff Girls and Samurai Jack has better perspective than any action figured style action cartoon from the 80s.

Prowler

11-25-2019, 10:26 AM

All of that feels like a reasonable concession in order to get the rest of the movie made. It didn't bother me then (as I was too young to know differently) and still doesn't now.

Oddly enough, as a kid I was fanatical about the FW cartoon (and Archie comics). I didn't even realize that by 1990 I was getting a bit tired of the formula, until I saw the movie, and suddenly it was like, "Oh, okay, THAT'S what I want TMNT to be like." It had enough resemblance to the cartoon by way of the characters' personalities to be familiar, but was also grounded and "real" enough to be engaging for people over the age of 9. To this day I sometimes get a rare opportunity to "smarten up" someone of a certain age who's never seen (or even heard of) the film, and it always gets a rave reaction, especially from people who only know of the brand through toys and cartoons. Usually something like, "I didn't think they'd ever make a REAL movie about this kinda thing!" (as opposed to the expected farce that the name implies to most people). Sometimes one of them will have seen or be familiar with the Bay disasters, and in turn will wonder out loud, "WHY don't they just keep it like that first movie? That was good! Why do they keep making it silly?" I don't have a good answer. Never did.

Anyway. The cartoon concessions of the original film were a very small price to pay in exchange for the only TMNT product that's ever had "true" cross-over appeal between fans, non-fans, and people of all ages. If it was 100% Mirage it would probably have been so "dry" and unfamiliar to the casual audience that it would have lost a lot of the charm that gives it its unique appeal. I'm not a fan of the pizza/"Cowabunga" sh*t but I understand that it's never going away at this point. The first movie was extremely tame with it compared to everything else that's come since. It didn't bother me then, and nowadays all I can think of is how they showed such incredible restraint.

Interesting question.

"Cowabunga" is a fine war cry. One could argue it's heavily outdated, but I'll take it over Booyakasha any day. That one is also outdated and it's not even something that people associate with the Turtles, but with Ali G. While Cowabunga predates TMNT by at least 2 decades, at least it's something people associate with the Turtles. So it might as well be their trademark at this point. That or Bart Simpson, I guess.

Wesley

11-25-2019, 11:20 AM

I remember enjoying the Vol 4 letters pages seeing Laird angrily argue with people who didn’t like the comic. Or the people arguing about politics and George W Bush at the time and Al Gore and how Star Wars Episode III “blew it.”

God the more things change, the more they stay the same.

I’ve never read the comics, but you’re right that there’s nothing new about people being disillusioned with fandom. Myself, I’m not bothered that the newer TMNT stuff doesn’t appeal to me. The older stuff is still there. Never got into the 1990 movie until a few years ago so that was something ‘new’ for me.:lol:

IMJ

11-25-2019, 11:46 AM

I’ve never read the comics, but you’re right that there’s nothing new about people being disillusioned with fandom. Myself, I’m not bothered that the newer TMNT stuff doesn’t appeal to me. The older stuff is still there. Never got into the 1990 movie until a few years ago so that was something ‘new’ for me.:lol:

I never got into the 2000's cartoon at all. My first exposure to it was the CN movie where they meet the FW team, and that drew me in.

Was that the first time a TMNT multi-verse was introduced? It was great....

The Great Saiyaman

11-25-2019, 12:11 PM

https://media.giphy.com/media/26wAdyyNyctnEqI5a/giphy.gif

Care to let me in on the Joke?

"Manhattan Project" had it all:
- The introduction of Tiger Claw
- Top Notch fight scenes
- the FW turtles.

What's so laughable about me using that episode as a reference point for my art works?

Andrew NDB

11-25-2019, 12:21 PM

The Vol. 4 lettercol in a nutshell, over and over again:

Fan: "Hey Peter, I really hate what you're doing with Vol. 4."

Peter: "Don't like it? Don't buy it. Doesn't bother me. I'm just making it because I enjoy making it."

Fan: "That's not fair! You can't just ask us to stop buying it!"

Peter: "I don't know what to suggest, then. Maybe keep buying but don't read them?"

Fan: "B-b-b-but you're making big, stupid business mistakes and not growing Mirage Studios like you should!"

Peter: "Probably. But they're my mistakes to make and Mirage Studios belongs to me."

Fans everywhere: "RAHHHHHGGHHH!!!"

Xav

11-25-2019, 12:38 PM

I liked Rise. I intend to finish it even if it is canceled after it’s current hiatus.What hiatus? I thought the second season just started?

Leo656

11-25-2019, 04:19 PM

My thing with laird is/was, you can't claim that you're doing something "for the fans" and then just do a ton of stuff they don't like. He kind of switched gears along the way into making Vol. 4 more of a "personal satisfaction" deal, but he never changed his tune of, "You guys aren't doing ME any favors, I'm doing YOU guys a favor." And I can see why that would rub a lot of people the wrong way.

I've told the story many times about how my local comic dealers were furious about the state of Vol. 4. "With the cartoon out, a Ninja Turtles book should be flying off the shelf, but nobody except you buys the damn thing because it's ugly, it's boring, and it's nothing like the Ninja Turtles people want to see." People can argue for "artistic integrity" until the cows come home, but at the end of the day, not having a decent TMNT comic coming out at the exact same time the cartoons and toys were experiencing a resurgence was a pretty bad misfire. "Tales" was infinitely better than Vol. 4, and a lot more like what a "traditional" TMNT comic should be, but I think it suffered from a ton of "guilt by association". I remember always enjoying reading Tales, but Vol. 4 was entirely "meh".

I did my part, I bought them for as long as stores carried them, despite thinking they sucked. He still got my money, so in return, I feel like I can pretty much say whatever.

There's a fine line in any commercial art medium between "giving fans something they like and expect" and "Whateva, I do what I wan'!" I can respect Peter's artistic integrity, his "vision", whatever, but ultimately vol. 4 wasn't anywhere near as satisfying as it could have and should have been. And that's entirely on him. But to his credit, I'm pretty sure he feels the same.

TommyT

11-25-2019, 04:38 PM

This why I hate the term "Cal Arts" to describe this current trend of artstyles because so many people there worked on different things so by your logic The Iron Giant is "Cal Arts" because a bunch of students from that school worked on that film.

See my response to snake above. Or don’t. At least I don’t have to worry about Rise garbage being around any longer. Sorry about your luck.

By the way Rise, PowerPuff Girls and Samurai Jack has better perspective than any action figured style action cartoon from the 80s.

Ok then
https://thumbs.worthpoint.com/zoom/images1/1/1016/08/woman-hang-tag-krage-troll-doll-made_1_272407819b56ca9c215da18b2715ae1e.jpg

TommyT

11-25-2019, 04:40 PM

Galactus

11-25-2019, 05:31 PM

I'm not really disillusioned with the fandom.

I am somewhat burned out with the franchise as a whole, we've gotten a lot of TMNT stuff in the last few years and little of it really that good and a few real disappointments. I'd be happy to let the franchise rest with film and television for a while and I know I'm not alone in that.

TMNT was already a corporate entity way before Peter Laird sold it. Sure, Laird seemed exert more authority over it in the 2000s and Playmates were largely hands off with it until toy sales dropped and then we had to go the future. Whatever misgivings I had with Nickelodeon/Viacom I naively thought that they knew better than to crank out something so fast after the 2012 series went off air particularly something like Rise. So I'm somewhat disillusioned with the franchise handlers than the fandom.

It's no fault of the fandom that they didn't embrace Rise. TMNT isn't like some of it's mass market contemporaries like Transformers, Power Rangers or Pokemon; all those franchises were built from the ground up to be self sustaining. There's new generations of Power Rangers, Transformers and Pokemon every few years but with TMNT you kinda have to use the same core characters and stories every time. It's not like you can't do new things but don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

Plus it's all kinda moot whether the established fandom of thirty-somethings like it, the intended audience of kids seem to have turned their noses up at it too. I would personally put that down to their not being a significant turnover of children since the last version was cancelled and it just not being good. Admittedly I've only watched a handful of episodes but from new and different it seems a weird hodge podge of ideas that people disliked in previous versions.

My thing with laird is/was, you can't claim that you're doing something "for the fans" and then just do a ton of stuff they don't like. He kind of switched gears along the way into making Vol. 4 more of a "personal satisfaction" deal, but he never changed his tune of, "You guys aren't doing ME any favors, I'm doing YOU guys a favor." And I can see why that would rub a lot of people the wrong way.

I've told the story many times about how my local comic dealers were furious about the state of Vol. 4. "With the cartoon out, a Ninja Turtles book should be flying off the shelf, but nobody except you buys the damn thing because it's ugly, it's boring, and it's nothing like the Ninja Turtles people want to see." People can argue for "artistic integrity" until the cows come home, but at the end of the day, not having a decent TMNT comic coming out at the exact same time the cartoons and toys were experiencing a resurgence was a pretty bad misfire. "Tales" was infinitely better than Vol. 4, and a lot more like what a "traditional" TMNT comic should be, but I think it suffered from a ton of "guilt by association". I remember always enjoying reading Tales, but Vol. 4 was entirely "meh".

I did my part, I bought them for as long as stores carried them, despite thinking they sucked. He still got my money, so in return, I feel like I can pretty much say whatever.

There's a fine line in any commercial art medium between "giving fans something they like and expect" and "Whateva, I do what I wan'!" I can respect Peter's artistic integrity, his "vision", whatever, but ultimately vol. 4 wasn't anywhere near as satisfying as it could have and should have been. And that's entirely on him. But to his credit, I'm pretty sure he feels the same.

There's only been a handful of times success of a comic property in another medium has ever helped sales of the comics and most of those times are all Batman.

People aren't going to buy mass amounts of a black and white indie comic whether it was Vol. 4 or Tales. With Tales specially it's greatest strength was it's greatest weakness; it was an anthology book. While it could be better than Vol. 4 sometimes it could also be worse the next issue. It can be very frustrating to read a really cool story with a great creative team but learn that if you wanted a followup you had to write in and hope Laird green lit one that would appear ten or so issues from then.

I do think they should have been a bit wiser when licensing out the rights for a comic based on the '03 show rather than Dreamwave but even that was never going to be flying off the shelves. That's just wishful thinking.

To add to the issues the fandom had with Laird there was a very strong resentment of his (very mild) criticism of his the Fred Wolf series and his reluctance to use it's characters and tropes in new TMNT media. That was something a lot of the fandom was very happy about when he sold it, the idea we were going to get every Fred Wolf character and trope back was appealing to many at the time. (To their credit Nickledeon did not lean to heavy on it straight away.) I'm guessing many of those same fans now know to be careful what they wish for.

PApagreg

11-25-2019, 05:53 PM

See my response to snake above. Or don’t. At least I don’t have to worry about Rise garbage being around any longer. Sorry about your luck.
https://thumbs.worthpoint.com/zoom/images1/1/1016/08/woman-hang-tag-krage-troll-doll-made_1_272407819b56ca9c215da18b2715ae1e.jpg

Actually look at the response you quoted to know why your previous statement towards snake was dumb.

You know what, I'm done talking about art and animation on this site it's a fool's errand you guys want character designs to look like action figures and have "detail" then more power to ya because at this point its like talking to a brick wall.

Candy Kappa

11-25-2019, 06:11 PM

Good old "I hate it so it's cal arts", equivalent to calling teenagers and kids "millennials" when giving them **** despite the youngest millennial is in their twenties and the oldest will in a few years reach forty.

It's not like trends in character designs exists in animation *looking back at 70's & 80's phletora of same designs/faces/styles like Hanna-Barbera and Filmation* nope, never.

TommyT

11-25-2019, 08:30 PM

@snake - Andy Suriano, also responsible for the look of Samurai Jack, was s teacher at Cal Arts for 6 years, specifically 2010 -2016. Do you need more evidence or can we just agree that you like this schlock, and I hate it. My definition is sound, in all aspects.

How would you define cal arts? Its low IQ super simplified nonsense. Give me The 80’s Thundercats intro or Ralph Bakshi anyday.

Thing is, when something is done properly, there’s far less complaints. The Mandelorian is a prime example of what happens when quality is a top concern. The Last Jedi is what happens when you try to service a small segment if people only.

If they look to what made the Joker work, and applied that to TMNT, we’d have Turtlemania all over again, in a heart beat.

Wildcat

11-25-2019, 10:19 PM

What hiatus? I thought the second season just started?Ok I just checked and the episodes seem to be really out of order in how they air. I check my tv listings every week and have not seen it in awhile.

Also I’m not sure if it’s been totally moved to NickToons. I don’t get that channel.

Dejablue

11-25-2019, 10:32 PM

I'm not disillusioned. I mean I have no reason to be. TMNT is a decades old franchise change is inevitable. If there is anything I'm sad about is a lack of fan content for me to enjoy whenever there is a dry spell. Fanfic can only do so much. I want comics and fangames too. :(

Also...PApagreg is a fan of MaoMao? I am also a fan of MaoMao.

Galactus

11-25-2019, 11:28 PM

If they look to what made the Joker work, and applied that to TMNT, we’d have Turtlemania all over again, in a heart beat.

Being cheap to make is what made Joker financial profitable. It's not even really that well liked a film.

Not to be too pedantic but Turtlemania was a huge pop culture phenomenon that touched TV, film, action figures and had tons of merchandise with their likeness on practically everything. An attempt at an arthouse, stylized, topical (but not really) TMNT movie like Joker isn't going to do that.

For good or ill something more MCU styled like the first Avengers is what would probably work for TMNT...or it would but I think they tried that hard with OOTS and failed and probably blotted the copy book for that approach. How you manage to to botch ripping off one of the simplest modern blockbusters I don't know but they did it and it doesn't give me faith they can find another approach.

I'm not disillusioned. I mean I have no reason to be. TMNT is a decades old franchise change is inevitable. If there is anything I'm sad about is a lack of fan content for me to enjoy whenever there is a dry spell. Fanfic can only do so much. I want comics and fangames too. :(

Also...PApagreg is a fan of MaoMao? I am also a fan of MaoMao.

We still have IDW (which may not be everyones cup of tea but it's popular among the fanbase) and while I've never been a huge collector of TMNT since I've been an adult there's been great collectibles that are still coming out and not all exclusively based on the current show or the 80s series. There's certainly been worse times to be a fan if not for the future prospects being than iffy.

PApagreg

11-25-2019, 11:39 PM

How would you define cal arts? Its low IQ super simplified nonsense. Give me The 80’s Thundercats intro or Ralph Bakshi anyday.

There is nothing to define Cal Arts because defining anything Cal Arts is stupid, by your logic Iron Giant is low IQ simplified nonsense. Also seriously Ralph Bakshi i give him credit for revolutionize adult animation but nobody is going to complainant him for his animation. Also why are you comparing an intro and films to an animated series.

Thing is, when something is done properly, there’s far less complaints. The Mandelorian is a prime example of what happens when quality is a top concern. The Last Jedi is what happens when you try to service a small segment if people only.

Okay how many TMNT properties have been done properly in the last decade isn't it a time to experiment with new stuff also your idea of quality might be different from somebody else.

If they look to what made the Joker work, and applied that to TMNT, we’d have Turtlemania all over again, in a heart beat.

I liked Joker but not everything needs to be Joker, the reason why Joker worked was because the character himself portrayed in numerous and varied interpretations(which you are against) and worked because Batman still had a lot of mature and dark movies under his belt. We need a Dark Knight or Spider-man 2 before we get a Joker.

Also...PApagreg is a fan of MaoMao? I am also a fan of MaoMao.

Mao Mao is pretty much my favorite kids cartoon right now and has no reason being as good as it is. Also I don't know if you are watching Rise but I found it a good substitute for Mao Mao's hiatus

Andrew NDB

11-26-2019, 12:25 AM

My thing with laird is/was, you can't claim that you're doing something "for the fans" and then just do a ton of stuff they don't like. He kind of switched gears along the way into making Vol. 4 more of a "personal satisfaction" deal

Are you sure he ever said Vol. 4 was "for the fans"? I remember fans chiming in about that, myself probably included, about "This is a great gift for the fans!" and kind of the general fandom taking it as that to begin with, particularly with it kind of coinciding with the launch of the 2k3 cartoon as well (sort of a... phoenix out of the ashes age, all at Peter's will). But I don't actually recall him saying that.

I've told the story many times about how my local comic dealers were furious about the state of Vol. 4. "With the cartoon out, a Ninja Turtles book should be flying off the shelf, but nobody except you buys the damn thing because it's ugly, it's boring, and it's nothing like the Ninja Turtles people want to see."

I remember my comic dealer saying the same things, if in less detail or with less venom. But basically a general sense of "I point them to Vol. 4 but they don't like it."

He was aware of it. Didn't care. And that's fine, IMHO. I think it's unfortunate, but I don't begrudge him one iota. He had 1000% rights to make the Turtle comic he wanted and there's loads to love about it. F*** the Fred Wolf fans whining about stuff, I get it.

I mean, would I have preferred Kevin Eastman next to him in the room, reining him in and creating more of a balance between the "gritty stylized ninja action" and sci-fi stuff? Sure. But he wasn't there. He sold his rights in 2000, and nobody made him do that. But even having 50% of the creative team who made the only incarnation of TMNT I care about around is infinitely better than having 0% of it.

"Tales" was infinitely better than Vol. 4

Well... there's definitely some super bad Tales V2 issues, way worse than even the worst issue of Vol. 4 by far.

Plus it's all kinda moot whether the established fandom of thirty-somethings like it, the intended audience of kids seem to have turned their noses up at it too.

The kids are the only ones that matter. So many people around here act like there's some kind of hidden TMNT cartoon fandom of people 30 and older that comprise even 35% of the audience-ship of something like "Rise of the TMNT." In reality it's like 0.5% of it, if that. Maybe.

To add to the issues the fandom had with Laird there was a very strong resentment of his (very mild) criticism of his the Fred Wolf series and his reluctance to use it's characters and tropes in new TMNT media. That was something a lot of the fandom was very happy about when he sold it, the idea we were going to get every Fred Wolf character and trope back was appealing to many at the time. (To their credit Nickledeon did not lean to heavy on it straight away.) I'm guessing many of those same fans now know to be careful what they wish for.

Yep, and I've been saying that since 2009. And get ready for 20 more new origins for Bebop and Rocksteady, because that's about all that's coming.

Ok I just checked and the episodes seem to be really out of order in how they air.

If they don't even care enough about the show to bother putting them in order so they can be understood as a cohesive story, why should you care about it or treat it as something that should be taken seriously? Or anyone? Like, outside of the target audience of 4 year-olds?

Wildcat

11-26-2019, 01:32 AM

If they don't even care enough about the show to bother putting them in order so they can be understood as a cohesive story, why should you care about it or treat it as something that should be taken seriously? Or anyone? Like, outside of the target audience of 4 year-olds?The ones that actually adhere to the main storyline of reconstructing Shredder and whenever they meet up with Baron Draxum ARE (from what I can tell) in order. I guess they’re just farther apart than necessary.

The side adventures and filler stuff is out of order.

Plus it’s fine you don’t like this series but you know it’s target audience is not 4 year olds. It’s just comedic/action based.

Diorm

11-26-2019, 08:40 AM

Andrew NDB

11-26-2019, 10:24 AM

Hey Andrew I've been wondering. To what extent do you consider some of the stuff canon in Volume 4? I mean, all of it is Canon of course because it's made by Laird, but what are the stuff you prefer not to consider when you write your own books?

No stuff. I definitely consider all of it canon and certainly wouldn't downplay or try to disregard any aspect of it. Or try and be like, "But what REALLY happened is this ____."

Er, I guess the only thing I'd be iffy about is the Battle Nexus Splinter being the "real" Splinter. We may never know what he was planning with that but my suspicion is that "something is awry" there.

oldmanwinters

11-26-2019, 10:42 AM

Er, I guess the only thing I'd be iffy about is the Battle Nexus Splinter being the "real" Splinter. We may never know what he was planning with that but my suspicion is that "something is awry" there.

That and "April is a drawing brought to life because Dad used permanent ink" were the two things that made us ask "Where is Pete going with all this?"

Andrew NDB

11-26-2019, 10:49 AM

That and "April is a drawing brought to life because Dad used permanent ink" were the two things that made us ask "Where is Pete going with all this?"

I definitely get big into that in "Origin." And what's going on in her head after stuff like #22.

Krutch

11-26-2019, 12:09 PM

Turtles Forever was the curtain call for me. Once the closing credits began to roll I felt a book closing on that part of my life, and I don't think I've ever really cared about anything TMNT related that wasn't a board game or statue since. That being said, I'm not of the belief there will never be a Turtles show/movie again that could recharge my interest. I think they tested the waters with Batman vs TMNT for a slightly more mature audience, which was generally well received, so that's promising. Which is not saying TMNT needs to be mature for me to enjoy it, but I think between Batman/TMNT and RotTMNT, it shows they're at least willing to try new things, which is comforting. I mean, it'd be pretty damn easy for them to just remake the OT for modern audiences with cheap animation. So let them keep rolling the dice. Even the worst of the bunch I can find something to like about it.

Dejablue

11-26-2019, 12:59 PM

We still have IDW (which may not be everyones cup of tea but it's popular among the fanbase) and while I've never been a huge collector of TMNT since I've been an adult there's been great collectibles that are still coming out and not all exclusively based on the current show or the 80s series. There's certainly been worse times to be a fan if not for the future prospects being than iffy.

Yeah I enjoy IDW. Currently I download them from the comic app.

Mao Mao is pretty much my favorite kids cartoon right now and has no reason being as good as it is. Also I don't know if you are watching Rise but I found it a good substitute for Mao Mao's hiatus

I'm not a big fan of Rise but I adore MaoMao. Badgerclops is the best.

TommyT

11-26-2019, 02:27 PM

@Papatroll

Look, it had it's shot, you got two seasons of this crap. They tried. The brand dug itself an even deeper hole from Bayturtles, something nobody thought even possible, but Rise managed it. How? By serving up something nobody but a few of you wanted.

A teapot? Balls.

Okay how many TMNT properties have been done properly in the last decade

So far, yeah, we've yet to have Turtles done right, aside from some fan art here and there, and done right, it's Mirage, not 2k3, with it's obnoxious colors and angry Laird. Mirage done right, brings it to life, and honors the origin.

They've tried everything else. BY YOUR LOGIC, what's the harm in trying something "new".

There is nothing to define Cal Arts because ...blah....blah...

This doesn't deserve any response. You're being pedantic. Everybody can point out the cal arts style. Iron Giant isn't included, ever.

isn't it a time to experiment with new stuff also your idea of quality might be different from somebody else.

The experiment is a failure. Moving on.

Mao Mao is pretty much my favorite kids cartoon right now and has no reason being as good as it is. Also I don't know if you are watching Rise but I found it a good substitute for Mao Mao's hiatus

So stop trying to make our thing your thing because you're bored. This sums up everything I've been saying since the start. You're on vacation over here, because there's nothing to see over there. you are trolling because you like how unhappy the fandom is, and you're feeding the misery.

We're done here. Scamper back home now. This is getting old.

AquaParade

11-26-2019, 02:46 PM

Andrew NDB

11-26-2019, 02:48 PM

CyberCubed

11-26-2019, 04:00 PM

Regarding IDW, is it weird they're about to hit the milestone of issue #100, something no other TMNT comic has ever done (even if you include all of Mirage together, it took YEARS to get there), and it feels like there's just not that much hype?

I mean this comic started way back in 2011, we had no idea it would be successful or last this long. It's about to hit the milestone issue 100, and there's not really THAT much hype. Sure I see people interested and I am too, but I dunno, I just feel, "eh" about it.

Maybe it has to do with old age. I know if I were 10 years younger in my early 20's still, I'd probably be more hyped. I always got more excited about stuff when I was younger.

PApagreg

11-26-2019, 04:40 PM

@Papatroll

Look, it had it's shot, you got two seasons of this crap. They tried. The brand dug itself an even deeper hole from Bayturtles, something nobody thought even possible, but Rise managed it. How? By serving up something nobody but a few of you wanted.A teapot? Balls.

Uh no it didn't, like how did it dig itself into a deeper hole than Bayturtles

So far, yeah, we've yet to have Turtles done right, aside from some fan art here and there, and done right, it's Mirage, not 2k3, with it's obnoxious colors and angry Laird. Mirage done right, brings it to life, and honors the origin. They've tried everything else. BY YOUR LOGIC, what's the harm in trying something "new".

You literally said that you wanted a Joker TMNT to kickstart turtlemania ignoring that it was OT that started it in the first place also this kinda proves my point there are lot of people who would call any incarnation of doing it right you and Andrew say it Mirage, some people say its OT, some people say its 2k3 and other people say its 2k12 the point I'm trying to make is that different people have different ideas of what are true turtles.

This doesn't deserve any response. You're being pedantic. Everybody can point out the cal arts style. Iron Giant isn't included, ever.

You said Rise was Cal Arts because Andy Suraino worked on Samurai Jack and taught there for 10 years so again by your logic Iron Giant is Cal Arts. Also you are literally the first person I know to refer Samurai Jack and Powerpuff girls as Cal Arts

So stop trying to make our thing your thing because you're bored. This sums up everything I've been saying since the start. You're on vacation over here, because there's nothing to see over there. you are trolling because you like how unhappy the fandom is, and you're feeding the misery.

We're done here. Scamper back home now. This is getting old.

I like a show you don't like, grow up.

TommyT

11-26-2019, 05:27 PM

Tommy T. I'm jumping in mid-convo here, and maybe you're exaggerating to make a point, but I think it's a hard-sell to say that "Rise..." dug the franchise into a bigger hole than Bayturtles. I'd disagree.

The thing is, hardly anyone even knows "Rise..." exists and it is mainly aimed at children to sell toys. Whereas Bayturtles - the first one anyway - was actually aimed at the older, comicbook-movie-watching public. I mean, they butchered it and threw in fart jokes, but from a fan standpoint, it's scary to think that the producers might be thinking "okay, the problem with this film is that it wasn't aimed at 5 year olds" - which, judging by the sequel, I'd be surprised if that sentiment wasn't floating around the room.

Anyway, that's just my two cents, but I'm pretty sure this point wasn't the crux of your post anyway.

So, here's my angle, as i've said to others here, in private.

This is our chance. Our chance for a real do over. Nick is freaking the hell out, not sort of, not maybe, but seriously. They don't have anything but spongebob that generates the REAL revenue that TMNT is supposed to. They don't understand it, and they don't get it. There are tons of politics, much like the stupid back and forth I've been having with some members here. People, who can't be seen to have been wrong. People who are trying to figure out how to make this a brand "kids" will respond to.

They don't get it.

NOT. FOR. KIDS. This needs to be the UNITED message from the fans. Look what it did for Sonic. For the fandom, it's time to stop sniping at each other, and make a stand. It can happen, if we are loud enough.

Bay turtles was aimed at kids, not adults. No part of that plan was to sell toys to adults, except as an afterthought, when some companys pitched collectibles. It's just not how any of this works. The play plan is all playmates knows. It's what Viacom was betting on.

KIDS. DON'T. CARE. Is the right message.

I will argue anyone into oblivion who tries to take the focus off of where it should be. We all want the same damned thing, so derisive stupidity from non fans can't be part of the conversation any longer. especially those who don't even know the core material.

Most of you would be very excited to get something approaching the 1990 film again. it can happen, if we stand up and ask.

The-Shredder

11-26-2019, 06:04 PM

I think this disillusionment comes from TMNT slowly becoming something that each of us are not personally familiar with. It happened with the 2003 cartoon, where many people who grew up with the 1987 cartoon either thought that because it didn't have the Technodrome, Krang, Bebop and Rocksteady, and a bunch of mutants, it wasn't "the real Turtles we grew up with," or they thought they were too old for it or too busy to watch it. Technically, the 1987 cartoon was the first one I watched through reruns on a satellite channel in 2003, but I saw the 2003 cartoon a few months afterwards, and it instantly became my favorite. On the flip side, the same happened to me with the 2012 cartoon, where I was the one no longer being appeased to. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy all three versions in their own way, but I like to have a bit more "Ninja" with my "Turtles."

Once it was announced that Peter Laird sold TMNT to Viacom, I knew the direction was drastically going to change. I understand the reasons behind it, but we lost a lot with it. The 2003 cartoon ended, albeit on a high note, the movie reboot was cancelled and we got the Michael Bay movies instead, ninjaturtles.com, our official link between the creators and the fans, shut down, and Mirage was out of the picture. You could tell that a lot of the 1987 fans who seemed to be coming out of the woodwork were ecstatic, but I was worried once it was made clear that a lot of the 1987 stuff was coming back through merchandise and hints being dropped by the people making the 2012 cartoon, which I still have mixed feelings about despite having it's moments in the later seasons. It didn't help that Viacom was treating the 2003 cartoon like it barely existed until recently, where they acknowledge it exists on social media and Pluto TV, but are virtually doing nothing commercially with it.

I felt the same way with post-Disney Lucasfilm's snide sidelining of the prequel trilogy and The Clone Wars during The Force Awakens hype, yet despite the quality of the movies, it's not being ignored. There is plenty of merchandise, a newfound appreciation is being made for the movies and the people who worked on them, and shockingly enough, The Clone Wars is coming back for a new season next year.

We're not entitled to anything, but I feel somewhat betrayed and disappointed that the Mirage-centric TMNT I knew was over. Sure, we have more expensive collectibles than we ever did ten years ago, but I care more about the cartoons, movies, and video games, which for the most part were mediocre. I have yet to watch Rise of the TMNT, but despite being radically different, I will form my own opinion on it and give it a chance. If it's like Teen Titans Go!, I'll probably enjoy it just for laughs. However, I don't think drastic reboots like this are the answer. Other comic book characters do just fine with sticking to their main tenets. I don't get why that's so difficult for TMNT nowadays.

I think what is really needed is some sort of creative brain trust overseeing everything if it doesn't already exist, just as how there is Marvel and DC, even though both are owned by giant conglomerates as well. Other than consulting with Kevin Eastman, I don't believe that exists anymore after the sale to Viacom.

However, I still have hope. This year, we got the Batman crossover movie, and it's the first TMNT thing in years that I hold in high regard. You can tell by the comic book covers in the end credits that DC did their homework. Also, TMNT is currently experiencing its 35th anniversary. This year is also Batman's 80th anniversary. If you look at the first 35 years of Batman, it wasn't perfect either. The Batman that we all know and love came into being during the 70s and 80s. Hopefully, we don't have to wait decades for that to happen with TMNT.

triplexxx

11-27-2019, 12:23 AM

My interest will never dwindle. I joined this forum because I was interested in the franchise, this forum isn't the reason I'm into it. I may not be into every single incarnation, but that doesn't mean I'll ever stop enjoying it.

Zulithe

11-27-2019, 01:44 AM

Without the right leadership at the top to direct how things go with TMNT it's going to be luck of the draw. They are going to greenlight a lot of mediocre TMNT stuff until something changes. Though every once in a while they will get it right when they hire people who with the right talent and passion, like we saw with 2k12.

I was a big fan as a kid (late 80s through a good portion of the 90s), and then ducked out of the fandom for a long time until 2k12 came out. It reminded me how much I loved that universe. Since it ended, i've been much less engaged with TMNT outside of collecting figures here and there. I'd love to see another series come out that I can truly love again before I cash in my chips.

I know most of us love the 1990 live action movie and hold it in the highest regard, but honestly it's not THAT high of a bar to surpass if they get the right people involved. A really well done movie would do a lot for the brand if they followed it up with a decent tv show around the same time.

Stop with the all-CGI turtles for a live action movie. Just no. Look at how much people LOVE baby yoda in the Mandalorian. A lot of that comes from it being a puppet. If it were just a cgi creature in a cgi crib it would be getting way way less attention. The 1990 movie had those amazing costumes. So that's one thing that they really should take seriously for the next movie... go practical as much as possible, with CGI only to bridge some gaps. If they aren't willing to do that then I don't have much faith in future movie adaptations. They need to get people on the projects who understand what works and are willing to put in the effort. If you just hire someone who needs their next paycheck you get stuff like the 2014 and 2016 movies.

IDW comic will help us through the dark times, so keep supporting it.

Vegita-San

11-27-2019, 07:23 AM

My dissalusment was butting heads with turtle creatives for daring to have an opinion on something. One of my first introductions to the world of SJW's.

and even then, the only thing I really truly enjoyed was IDW Turtles after 2K3 ended.

I'm no longer the dedicated fan I used to be, thanks to the giant corporate buyout.. but more a casual fan. If I like something, I'll support it, but I no longer feel like getting up in arms over something that wasn't meant for me to begin with..

IndigoErth

11-27-2019, 08:02 AM

To answer the question... Nah. My fandom is my fandom and hasn't ever been dependent on what other people think, say, or, at the creator level, do. I love these guys too much as a whole to become disillusioned with them personally based on disappointment with a present direction or other choices made. Nor fan behavior, as I didn't grow up with "fandom" being dependent on a community of people or their need to agree on most everything or see things the same way, lest someone's feelings get hurt or invalidated. I really enjoy having people to discuss it with, esp as I didn't really have that at all as a kid, but the wider community fandom is still kind of a separate thing than my own personal fandom. It serves its own purpose in having a voice that one single person generally can't have in the case of a wide consensus if something is a good or bad direction, but it doesn't really impact or direct how I personally feel about things.

Probably one of the only things that genuinely bugs me, but is a wider fandom thing in general and not limited to the TMNT, is that particular subset of it where it seems to have turned into more of a "club" for kids (I assume teens or rather young adults most likely) to get attention more-so than a group with genuine shared interest in the characters. I don't know how many times I've seen kids "threaten" to "leave" it because they aren't getting enough attention for their shoddy art/OC or whatever. Fandom, imo, should not be about that... it's supposed to be about the canon characters and their stories you enjoy, not about you. That's definitely one trend in fandom I'd rather not see increase. (Note this does not include those artists, writers, etc who create because they enjoy it, not because they specifically want likes.)

Coola Yagami

11-27-2019, 09:02 AM

They don't get it.

NOT. FOR. KIDS.

KIDS. DON'T. CARE. Is the right message.

You forget how these boardroom idiots think. If they see kids don't care about TMNT they'd much sooner just can the whole thing and leave TMNT retired like all the other old Nick shows than make it for adults.

"The kids ain't buying it. Shut it down. Shut it all down. What, make a show aimed at adults? What's wrong with you? Adults don't like kiddy **** like TMNT."

Andrew NDB

11-27-2019, 09:57 AM

We're not entitled to anything, but I feel somewhat betrayed and disappointed that the Mirage-centric TMNT I knew was over.

You're not wrong, but who do we really direct that betrayal to? Not Nick. They paid 63 million to do whatever they want with the TMNT, which they made clear would just be recyclings of Fred Wolf garbage. Peter, then?

IDW comic will help us through the dark times, so keep supporting it.

http://tenor.com/view/im-not-sure-seriously-say-what-what-in-the-hell-scared-gif-12308563.gif

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

11-27-2019, 11:02 AM

There's a difference between disillusionment and disappointment.

I'd like for TMNT to branch out a bit more and cater to my personal desires. I do see Rise of the TMNT as branching out, but I also see it as further cementing the "just for kiddies" mentality. But I haven't watched a single episode, so what do I know?

But I don't expect -- and never have expected -- Viacom/Nick to suddenly offer a Daredevil-esque TMNT series with darkness and blood and moral ambiguity. I'm lucky to even still be getting a TMNT IDW comic series.

So I'll take what I can, wish for more, and not expect to get more. It is what it is. Short of another buyout or something radically shaking up the status quo and bottom dollar, this is what it will be.

TommyT

11-27-2019, 03:48 PM

You forget how these boardroom idiots think. If they see kids don't care about TMNT they'd much sooner just can the whole thing and leave TMNT retired like all the other old Nick shows than make it for adults.

"The kids ain't buying it. Shut it down. Shut it all down. What, make a show aimed at adults? What's wrong with you? Adults don't like kiddy **** like TMNT."

I. Don’t. Care.

I repeat. I do not care what they think, I care about what they will think.

If one was to stumble in here, looking for a direction, what would the exec take away? Would they understand that the fans really, really want a Mirage show?

No. They’d instead be reading pages of what WE think they think, and that’s not the message we should get out.

Make TMNT Great Again

It is not a kids story. It was bastardized by Mark Freedman.
TMNT is not 4 Kids.

Coola Yagami

11-27-2019, 03:52 PM

I. Don’t. Care.

I repeat. I do not care what they think, I care about what they will think.

If one was to stumble in here, looking for a direction, what would the exec take away? Would they understand that the fans really, really want a Mirage show?

No. They’d instead be reading pages of what WE think they think, and that’s not the message we should get out.

Make TMNT Great Again

It is not a kids story. It was bastardized by Mark Freedman.
TMNT is not 4 Kids.

No.... They'll just think we're a huge bunch of lifeless losers that live in our parents basements that are obsessed over a kiddy cartoon and not the right age demographic.

We don't matter. Our voices aren't worth ****. We're not the target demographic.

It won't change until someone in the boardroom that also is a technodrome member comes along and tries a massive gamble.

pferreira

11-27-2019, 03:55 PM

I don't personally feel the franchise is in danger right now. I may feel disillusioned in the sense it's moved on and reinvented itself (sort of) but as long as it makes money I don't see the franchise being in any trouble even with the current franchise revolving around Rise and the IDW comic which I can't get into.

So, I don't make a lot of posts here anymore. I still browse, but I don't engage as much as I used to, or like to. I'm not sure what it is, but I've been disinterested and disappointed with the recent handling of the TMNT, and I think its effected my interest.Times change and style moves on although it can still be referenced. It's all to do with whatever is popular right now to keep things fresh.

Still, it's all over now. The public has- for the most part- moved on. I should say that I love what I've seen from Rise. It's new, different, and beautifully animated.You embraced it but most haven't due to characters acting out of character and the terrible Cal Arts inspired animation. It's the kind of animation I'd expect from Samurai Jack and other cheap Cartoon Network shows like Adventure Time. I miss good animation where animation has detail.

Tied to that godforsaken sh*tty cartoon from the 80s, we will never get something innovative and new again.Well okay there... :o:o:o:o:o:o:o:o:o

"Cowabunga" is a fine war cry. One could argue it's heavily outdated, but I'll take it over Booyakasha any day. That one is also outdated and it's not even something that people associate with the Turtles, but with Ali G. While Cowabunga predates TMNT by at least 2 decades, at least it's something people associate with the Turtles. So it might as well be their trademark at this point. That or Bart Simpson, I guess.THIS!

How would you define cal arts? Its low IQ super simplified nonsense. Give me The 80’s Thundercats intro or Ralph Bakshi anyday.Also THIS! :D

Andrew NDB

11-27-2019, 04:09 PM

IndigoErth

11-27-2019, 04:23 PM

You embraced it but most haven't due to characters acting out of character and the terrible Cal Arts inspired animation. It's the kind of animation I'd expect from Samurai Jack and other cheap Cartoon Network shows like Adventure Time.
Ah oh. Duck and cover! I think I hear an air raid siren. lol

PApagreg

11-27-2019, 04:34 PM

pferreira

11-27-2019, 04:41 PM

Ah oh. Duck and cover! I think I hear an air raid siren. lolYea I probably shouldn't of been so honest in that comment. :ohwell:

Leo656

11-27-2019, 04:52 PM

It's like they don't understand why the TMNT has endured as a franchise in the way that it has. When you pass the age of about 10 and outgrow the Nick TMNT (Rise, in this case), there's nothing to outgrow it into.

So really Nick TMNT's audience is a revolving door of millions of 5-9 year olds (becoming interested then almost immediately outgrowing it and losing interest). Oh, and like the ten 30-40 year-olds on this forum and on the internet that watch it out of some kind of devotion to the franchise, or at least what the franchise used to be.

Yeah, man. That's long been my gripe. In 1990, the first film and the Archie comics were there to help keep my interest in the brand alive by presenting a slightly more "grown-up" version of what I knew, without being completely unrecognizable. I don't know if I would have remained a fan through my tween and teen years if all I had was the old cartoon; I watched tons of cartoons in the 80s, but I can count the ones I actively kept up with after that on one hand. But TMNT had multiple "flavors" at that point so different age groups could be fans and stay invested.

Aiming squarely at kids and only kids, while having the attitude of, "If the 30 and 40-year olds wanna tag along, that's great, but we honestly don't care" is so, SO stupid. It's why the WWF almost went completely out of business in 1995/96: It's incredibly short-sighted to expect that you can just whip up an entirely new fanbase of little kids every few years. In '95, the wrestling fans who grew up on Hulk Hogan were in high school and sick of the cartoon bullsh*t, and their kid brothers did NOT just pick up where they left it and start watching in their place; Vince McMahon nearly bankrupted himself before he figured out that he needed to reach out to those fans who were getting older, who had already BEEN fans for ten or more years, rather than push them away and say, "Eh, we want kids to watch, not you." One could argue that he took too sharp of a left turn, but that's another argument. Point being, he realized that the 5-10 year old crowd is NOT a sustainable audience and you can't just expect their younger siblings to take over for them. You HAVE to respect the segment of the audience that never stopped watching and caring, or else you lose.

I do strongly feel, however, that in their testament to being a "kids' company", Nick really would rather shelve the entire franchise and try again in a decade or more, rather than just allow some more "adult" content to co-exist with things like "Rise". That's been my beef with "Rise" from the start; I don't like it at all, but if other people do, that's fine, BUT, it's definitely not a way for the franchise to "put its best foot forward" and sadly it's the most visible thing in the brand right now. Were it not the ONLY cartoon or TV/movie project going on, that's an entirely different ballgame, but regardless of whether anyone likes it, it DOES hurt the brand simply because there's nothing else going on right now, and it mostly serves to hammer home the idea that "This franchise is just Goofy Kids Stuff". Were there something else on the air to "counter-balance" things, then it's a harmless confection. I think a lot of people probably feel the same way; the people who don't like it could tolerate it if it wasn't "carrying the torch" for the entire brand.

I'unno. I agree, Andrew; aiming ONLY at the younglings and expecting that audience to "respawn" every 5 years is not a good business plan, and it's going to cost them in the long run. As well as costing everyone else, too.

I also think it's bonkers to actively reject the portion of the audience with a lot of nostalgia and disposable income, but nobody at Nick asked me about it. :trazz:

IndigoErth

11-27-2019, 05:03 PM

Just so everybody knows the term Cal Arts was coined by John K to describe artstyles that resemble Disney films like the Iron Giant so not only are you using the same term that was made by a guy who had relationships with an underage girl you are also using the term wrong too.

https://i.redd.it/ks48mo83b0z01.jpg
Terms (and animation art trends) also change and pretty sure most know what is meant by it today. Clearly Disney and Iron Giant are not what people think about these days when they hear or discuss things associated with that term.

Pedos also breathe oxygen so I guess we should stop doing that too. (That is to say, I'm not sure what that terrible fact about that guy has to do with that particular topic.)

Yea I probably shouldn't of been so honest in that comment. :ohwell:
Nah, not your honesty. Just some of those keywords have already had some tempers going, so just duck if things start flying again. lol

PApagreg

11-27-2019, 05:07 PM

Terms also change and pretty sure most know what is meant by it today. Clearly Disney and Iron Giant are not what people think about these days when they hear or discuss things associated with that term.

Well they sure has hell don't think about Samurai Jack and the Powerpuff girls hence why anyone who uses that term knows crap about animation and just uses it as a buzz terms to describe animation trends they don't like.

It's like they don't understand why the TMNT has endured as a franchise in the way that it has. When you pass the age of about 10 and outgrow the Nick TMNT (Rise, in this case), there's nothing to outgrow it into.

So really Nick TMNT's audience is a revolving door of millions of 5-9 year olds (becoming interested then almost immediately outgrowing it and losing interest). Oh, and like the ten 30-40 year-olds on this forum and on the internet that watch it out of some kind of devotion to the franchise, or at least what the franchise used to be.

You know time progresses right, after the 5-9 year olds grow up there are going to be new 5-9 year olds, its not like after The Batman we got a TV-14 Batman show we got Brave and the Bold

TommyT

11-27-2019, 05:25 PM

They killed Cal-arts turtles, and I think maybe some of you are realizing that we do infact have the power. The vote was 90% percent against, and our dollars have spoken.

Yeah you might be afraid they’re gonna call you a basement dweller, but what do you think they call you now? Are you really comfortable buy stuff you son’t want, just because that’s all you’re allowed to have?

We can make it happen. Post more Mirage, and post often. You never know who is here with you, watching and waiting to help.

snake

11-27-2019, 11:18 PM

Damn, was Samurai Jack always hated by boomers and lumped into the same category as Adventure Time or Steven Universe? Those shows aren't even comparable.

TommyT

11-28-2019, 01:25 AM

Damn, was Samurai Jack always hated by boomers and lumped into the same category as Adventure Time or Steven Universe? Those shows aren't even comparable.

When rise is over, you’ll still have Paw Patrol.

snake

11-28-2019, 12:09 PM

Alright, man. Go whack off to Rainbow Brite or some other poorly animated 80s cartoon.

AquaParade

11-28-2019, 12:48 PM

TommyT

11-28-2019, 12:52 PM

I feel pretty good about supporting the Neca figures and IDW books when I am able to. Those markets are typically aimed at older audiences, so it’s probably the best way to send a message. Honestly, maybe tweeting too, these days. Idk.

It’s a good idea to do more of that. If adults are seen as the demo, adults will be the demo they’ll cater. Simple as that.

PApagreg

11-28-2019, 10:14 PM

So let me get this straight

This is Cal Arts Garbage correct
Qp-L_Xei-Lg

IMJ

11-28-2019, 11:34 PM

So let me get this straight

Dude the semantics don't matter. You might even be right about some of them, but it doesn't matter. The show sucks.

And even if you argued continually that the show did not suck because of reasons x, y, & z; then it still doesn't matter because the show is unarguably out of touch with the long term fanbase, and has failed to attract a new one large enough to sustain it, as it seems to be at this point.

Now if fanbase grows and the show survives even 4 paltry seasons, I'm sure many people here would at that point be more open to the wordplay argument.

PApagreg

11-29-2019, 12:23 AM

Dude the semantics don't matter. You might even be right about some of them, but it doesn't matter. The show sucks.

And even if you argued continually that the show did not suck because of reasons x, y, & z; then it still doesn't matter because the show is unarguably out of touch with the long term fanbase, and has failed to attract a new one large enough to sustain it, as it seems to be at this point.

Now if fanbase grows and the show survives even 4 paltry seasons, I'm sure many people here would at that point be more open to the wordplay argument.

1. That was a clip of Samurai Jack

2.This show is getting traction of Twitter
https://twitter.com/zimmerltw/status/1195990246061568001
https://twitter.com/frasierverse/status/1192122565462020097
https://twitter.com/rottmntsakuga/status/1176189484221849600
https://twitter.com/rottmntsakuga/status/1196502078987751424
https://twitter.com/MannLightfoot/status/1199155599155564544

3. What difference does it make if the show survives 4 seasons(also 112 episodes for a show isn't paltry) and it doesn't matter if people are more open to wordplay argument because they are using the term wrong.

TommyT

11-29-2019, 01:01 AM

Denial is a cruel mistress. He’s fighting for his blanket. He’s screaming for his mother. He’s calling for mods, and yet,

He’s not even a fan, he just wants cal-arts everything.

Candy Kappa

11-29-2019, 03:46 AM

I just don't think TommyT's two brain cells can comprehend what Papagreg is trying to tell that "Cal-Arts" don't mean "This thing I don't like", but I think it's a lost cause.

Rise April just don't cater to his specific spank material needs.

80gmrp

11-29-2019, 06:03 AM

...not sure what happened to this thread since I last posted in it, but it seems it’s proven my point about toxicity: frankly, it is possible to have disagreements that don’t involve insulting others simply because they disagree with you...while I admit I didn’t help in the past over what this thread seems to have deformed into (another pro/anti Rise argument thread), at least I learned my lesson by, among other things, staying out of the forum this tangent belongs in...

Jester

11-29-2019, 07:43 AM

I think we'd all do well to remember:
0la5DBtOVNI

Andrew NDB

11-29-2019, 09:46 AM

You know time progresses right, after the 5-9 year olds grow up there are going to be new 5-9 year olds, its not like after The Batman we got a TV-14 Batman show we got Brave and the Bold

That's exactly what I said. Respawning generations of 5-9 year-olds. I'm saying is that if they were smart, they could keep one generation of TMNT fans and lock them into the long term if they had stuff that appealed to an older sensibility as opposed to offering literally nothing.

IMJ

11-29-2019, 10:26 AM

3. What difference does it make if the show survives 4 seasons(also 112 episodes for a show isn't paltry) and it doesn't matter if people are more open to wordplay argument because they are using the term wrong.

Well my friend, let's see - 4 seasons is the beginning of a respectable run on most shows but is still considered unsuccessful in broadcast standards. However, 4 seasons is normally considered to be renewal by interest as opposed to renewal by contract (2 seasons) or renewal by business planning (sometimes 3 seasons).

And so the point is that a lot of crap shows can squeak out 2 or 3 seasons, but if a show lasts 4, then that's normally because the fandom for the show is there enough to call for it, or at least there enough to see more potential growth in a fourth season.

That's the difference.

...not sure what happened to this thread since I last posted in it, but it seems it’s proven my point about toxicity: frankly, it is possible to have disagreements that don’t involve insulting others simply because they disagree with you...while I admit I didn’t help in the past over what this thread seems to have deformed into (another pro/anti Rise argument thread), at least I learned my lesson by, among other things, staying out of the forum this tangent belongs in...

I think it's important to remember that there is no vocal inflection online, so most of the written word tends to come off as a sort of neutral combativeness. The other thing to remember is your audience and posting location - people adopt exaggerated demeanors. Try posting on a financial forum, or worse yet a business forum where HR people post. Everything is so exaggeratedly polite and "celebrated" that it's nauseating in the other direction entirely because it's so phony.

Dejablue

11-29-2019, 10:27 AM

Having 2 different shows with 2 different tones running more or less at the same time. Would be interesting. But also expensive?

newfan

11-29-2019, 10:57 AM

Having 2 different shows with 2 different tones running more or less at the same time. Would be interesting. But also expensive?

If for example there was an older live action series on Netflix you could still have Rise airing on Nick, two different things for different audiences.
With things like DC and Marvel characters there's a variety so far as movies, older shows and toons. Granted the last movies were PG-13 but that... didn't work out. I'm not even sure there will be the new movie they talked about at this point, seen as things seemed to go silent.

FredWolfLeonardo

11-29-2019, 11:44 AM

Having 2 different shows with 2 different tones running more or less at the same time. Would be interesting. But also expensive?

Would be interesting if tmnt cartoons got the Adventures of Sonic the Hedgehog/Satam treatment, going as far as having the same designs/voices for both shows.

TommyT

11-29-2019, 11:56 AM

This fight boils down to "I want" vs "I do not want".

In another thread, a user pointed out that, some people, want a thing changed to suit them, because they are bored with what a thing is, much to the chagrin of life long fans. They argued that the life long fans often suffer, because in order to get new fans, you have to adapt a brand from what it was, to what it was not.

Let's use a food many people love, and wars have been fought over, namely, Chocolate.

Chocolate, if suddenly changed, and replaced with, oh let's say, diarrhea, might bother most people, while some, may actually enjoy the new taste, and others may even argue they don't really see much difference, after all, brown is brown, is brown, right?
Some may actually enjoy the contrarian position, giggling at the displeasure of everyone else.
But most people, the sane, well adjusted people, might yearn for chocolate to be chocolate again.
You might argue that change is inevitable, or that chocolate should taste like diarrhea.

Maybe you get hung up on the definition of it, building a straw man argument around the notion that diarrhea isn't a specific flavour at all, and therefore, a poor choice of descriptive.
better yet, you might get ANGRY that diarrhea is being put down, and cry to the powers that be, that people are saying bad things about diarrhea.
It's still not the way chocolate should taste, and everyone knows it, no matter what silly argument you use.

In the end, you will not have convinced anyone that diarrhea is the better taste for chocolate, all you'll have done, is turn people off chocolate.
Now nobody is buying chocolate, or at least, most people aren't. there's no real demand, and you've cost the world something they once loved.

The point is, diarrhea is out there, and there is plenty of it.

Leave Chocolate alone.

I hope my analogy wasn't too on the nose.

FredWolfLeonardo

11-29-2019, 12:04 PM

TommyT

11-29-2019, 12:12 PM

Only one small problem with your example though, is that Rise is not "replacing" any other version of tmnt, which are all still out there to enjoy.

So Rise may be Diarrhea for you and thats all cool, but no one's taking away your chocolate.

My analogy covered that EXACT argument, but I deleted it thinking it was too far.
No more chocolate remains as it was. the diarrhea flavour has seeped into all the chocolate available. We now have only the memory of chocolate.
There isn't a secret black market of old flavored chocolate. it's all just diarrhea.

But more straw men, please.

CyberCubed

11-29-2019, 12:41 PM

Is this Super Goku?

TommyT

11-29-2019, 12:54 PM

Is this Super Goku?

What? What does DBZ have to so with the argument?
This dude, papatroll, is actively pushing for childishness in TMNT.

I’m not entirely opposed to children having a show for them, but so far, its only been for them, and as Andrew said, there’s nothing for us. Why is it so complicated? April isn’t a little girl, she’s a grown woman. The turtles aren’t wacky magic wielding comedians, and Splinter sure as hell shouldn’t be a joke, a washed up actor. The hell is this garbage? A tickle fight with Shredder?

As a send up of TMNT, a parody of itself, sure. But this is obnoxious as a series. Its beyond I don’t like, it’s an imposter.

I get irreverent writing, And It’s clear that the last two episodes of the first season were a middle finger to people like me. Mocking us, but whats great is, that’s over. Cancelled. Bye bye. Done.
We put an end to this and it will be retconned and ignored.

Coola Yagami

11-29-2019, 12:59 PM

What? What does DBZ have to so with the argument?
This dude, papatroll, is actively pushing for childishness in TMNT.

I’m not entirely opposed to children having a show for them, but so far, its only been for them, and as Andrew said, there’s nothing for us. Why is it so complicated? April isn’t a little girl, she’s a grown woman. The turtles aren’t wacky magic wielding comedians, and Splinter sure as hell shouldn’t be a joke, a washed up actor. The hell is this garbage? A tickle fight with Shredder?

As a send up of TMNT, a parody of itself, sure. But this is obnoxious as a series. Its beyond I don’t like, it’s an imposter.

He's referring to some banned user named Super Goku that did whatever and got banned. I'm pretty sure in retrospect whatever he did was stupid and not worth banning over unless he actually meant actual harm to a fellow member.

I was probably not around during his time but I know he's wasn't well liked around here.

TommyT

11-29-2019, 01:10 PM

Well, if they also argued for adult programming and got banned, that would be unfortunate.

I don’t have a problem with papatroll outside of the disingenuine posts. It reads like they are pushing people to get angry.

Others, I’ve noticed a few that seem to legitimately like Rise, and if you’re a kid, okay, it is aimed at you. I just don’t think the majority of fans of TMNT, are kids.

The problem is, we only ever get one blanket version of turtles at a time. One would hope that the new adds to the old, expanding it, not breaking it. Personally, I hate Andy’s art style. Its very childish. It’s not something I would seek out. I am a fan of a more classic dynamic feel. Papatroll hates that. We won’t agree. I also don’t think they are a real fan of TMNT. And that’s also okay, but in that case, maybe try to see what might be rubbing real fans the wrong way. Maybe you’ll appreciate why the changes are so jarring.

I think Star Wars has a better handle on the approach, in so far as there’s something for everyone. I don’t have to watch any of the animated stuff, or care, because the Mandelorian is available. That suits me, as imperfect as it is. But if all we had was some clone wars show, aimed at 5year olds, and that was it? Ouch.

PApagreg

11-29-2019, 01:15 PM

What? What does DBZ have to so with the argument?
This dude, papatroll, is actively pushing for childishness in TMNT.

Guy I'm just one person who likes a show you don't, calm down.

As a send up of TMNT, a parody of itself, sure. But this is obnoxious as a series. Its beyond I don’t like, it’s an imposter

Imagine calling a show you don't like an imposter like how does that work.

And It’s clear that the last two episodes of the first season were a middle finger to people like me. Mocking us,
https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/765/687/b0c.png

We put an end to this and it will be retconned and ignored.

Where is this we crap nobody is looking at TommytwobraincellsT and think to themselves "Well this guy doesn't like it therefore we should end it" Nick treated it badly like any of its new shows hence why its getting an axe and seeing the traction its getting on social media I doubt its going to be ignored.

I don’t have a problem with papatroll outside of the disingenuine posts. It reads like they are pushing people to get angry.

Dude don't try to misuse big words just because you want to look smart.

The problem is, we only ever get one blanket version of turtles at a time. One would hope that the new adds to the old, expanding it, not breaking it. Personally, I hate Andy’s art style. Its very childish. It’s not something I would seek out. I am a fan of a more classic dynamic feel. Papatroll hates that. We won’t agree. I also don’t think they are a real fan of TMNT. And that’s also okay, but in that case, maybe try to see what might be rubbing real fans the wrong way. Maybe you’ll appreciate why the changes are so jarring.

I been here for over 5 years, watched 3 of the animated series, read two vols of the Mirage comic and is keeping up with the IDW book, watched the 1990 and 2007 movie and brought the TMNT Platinum game(which was kinda repatative) but I'm not a true fan because I'm not a close minded fanboy who disregards others for their different opinions.

TommyT

11-29-2019, 01:22 PM

TommytwobraincellsT .

Name calling. Sweet.
Yeah, the trolling ends now.

snake

11-29-2019, 01:30 PM

I've never seen someone on this forum so adamantly hostile over a difference of opinion, especially in a franchise with multiple incarnations like TMNT. This isn't Star Wars. Rise isn't ruining any "canon" or past incarnations. Like you said, once it's done, it'll be done. Besides, it's not like it's hard to ignore it. No one talks about it here, and new episodes air sporadically.

Leo656

11-29-2019, 01:32 PM

I've never seen someone on this forum so adamantly hostile over a difference of opinion

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSJ9xUr2LLzKRbtUaeV-EEWWd4ltlKtxuD3v0TVCfmRWzuEsz1lJw&s

snake

11-29-2019, 01:35 PM

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSJ9xUr2LLzKRbtUaeV-EEWWd4ltlKtxuD3v0TVCfmRWzuEsz1lJw&s

Should've put the /s, lol.

Candy Kappa

11-29-2019, 01:53 PM

Name calling. Sweet.
Yeah, the trolling ends now.

And you calling him papatroll wasn't? JFC you're so ****ing full of yourself it's almost hilarious.

Almost.

TommyT

11-29-2019, 01:55 PM

All of the threads here have instances of this. @Leo656 argued the EXACT same argument about Batman just a few days ago in another thread. Another user has been going on and on about the DC reboots.
I'm not unique, @Papagreg has made like 10 posts trying to fight for their personalized definition of Cal arts.

@Candykappa.

He IS trolling. That isn't an insult, i'm calling them out for the thing they are actually doing. Are you implying I actually have two brain cells? You're insulting my intelligence? are insults allowed?

Candy Kappa

11-29-2019, 02:03 PM

. Are you implying I actually have two brain cells?

It's what I've gathered from all you insane true-fanisms, poop analogies and obsession with animation you don't like "cal-arts", and your weird April threads.

You're insulting my intelligence?

Me? I would never.

TommyT

11-29-2019, 02:15 PM

It's what I've gathered from all you insane true-fanisms, poop analogies and obsession with animation you don't like "cal-arts", and your weird April threads.
Me? I would never.

I appreciate that, man. Insinuating insults is really low.

What's weird about the April thread? Asking if April, as a female character, needs to be sexualized, is weird? having a conversation about characterization and gender roles is weird? You don't find gender norms worthy of discussion?

Leo656

11-29-2019, 02:28 PM

All of the threads here have instances of this. @Leo656 argued the EXACT same argument about Batman just a few days ago in another thread.

Yeah, but I'm an institution around here, and also, nobody likes me. :lol:

TommyT

11-29-2019, 02:43 PM

Yeah, but I'm an institution around here, and also, nobody likes me. :lol:

You may not put TMNT on the same level as Batman, but do you not see my point?

Do you not agree? ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED???

Leo656

11-29-2019, 04:14 PM

Oh, I'm more on your side than against it. I just think it's interesting that you'd hold up the Most Hated Poster In Technodrome History as an example when citing precedent. :lol:

IndigoErth

11-29-2019, 04:18 PM

Are we still circling this drain? You guys have too much fun when I'm not here.

TommyT

11-29-2019, 04:41 PM

it's been going round for too long. Rise is cancelled, but they won't concede defeat.

Leo656

11-29-2019, 04:55 PM

Are we still circling this drain? You guys have too much fun when I'm not here.

You're always invited. You know you're my hero.

IndigoErth

11-29-2019, 05:03 PM

:twink: If I hadn't had to work, I'd at least brought the popcorn.

And possibly fail to resist jumping in, so maybe it was for the best I couldn't.

Andrew NDB

11-29-2019, 05:04 PM

it's been going round for too long. Rise is cancelled, but they won't concede defeat.

Too much invested by Playmates and investors. I'm no expert in these matters, but I'm imagining there is some guaranteed # of episodes/seasons they (Nick/Viacom) have to hit to not be in violation of whatever was agreed. So even if they know things aren't going to turn around, they have to ride it out a bit.

TommyT

11-29-2019, 05:14 PM

Too much invested by Playmates and investors. I'm no expert in these matters, but I'm imagining there is some guaranteed # of episodes/seasons they (Nick/Viacom) have to hit to not be in violation of whatever was agreed. So even if they know things aren't going to turn around, they have to ride it out a bit.

I meant the fans here won’t concede. They’re holding out hope for a future that will never come.

Andrew NDB

11-29-2019, 05:25 PM

I meant the fans here won’t concede. They’re holding out hope for a future that will never come.

Oh. Yeah, that's true. The 'ole battered wives syndrome.

Vegita-San

11-29-2019, 05:36 PM

I think we'd all do well to remember:
0la5DBtOVNI

How dare you say such a hateful thing? I be locking this thread now because it's not all positive and happy and fun!

-this is sarcasm. actually good advice above.
also, you ARE allowed to like something too....including liking trashing stuff that deserves to be trashed :).

TommyT

11-29-2019, 05:55 PM

How dare you say such a hateful thing? I be locking this thread now because it's not all positive and happy and fun!

-this is sarcasm. actually good advice above.
also, you ARE allowed to like something too....including liking trashing stuff that deserves to be trashed :).

Actual scene from Rise:
https://i.imgur.com/VlLfJul.png?1

Tickle torture:

https://i.imgur.com/Ml8Vhgc.png?1

Nothing says TMNT, like tickling your enemy for the lols.

IndigoErth

11-29-2019, 06:15 PM

So that second pic is kinda awkward...

also, you ARE allowed to like something too..."but don't be a dick about it"
Fixed it for you.

Vegita-San

11-29-2019, 06:16 PM

yeah, there is that too :). works both ways.

PApagreg

11-29-2019, 06:16 PM

Actual scene from Rise:
https://i.imgur.com/VlLfJul.png?1

Tickle torture:

https://i.imgur.com/Ml8Vhgc.png?1

Nothing says TMNT, like tickling your enemy for the lols.

Hey remember in Turtles Forever the OT,2k3 and Mirage turtles defeated Mirage Shredder by throwing garbage.

And remember in OT this happened.

https://media.giphy.com/media/LR5qMVW7U8pW0ggv8X/giphy.gif

@Candykappa.

He IS trolling. That isn't an insult, i'm calling them out for the thing they are actually doing. Are you implying I actually have two brain cells? You're insulting my intelligence? are insults allowed?

Insulting would imply you would have more brain cells than two, if anything I was overestimating your intelligence with that comment.

IndigoErth

11-29-2019, 06:30 PM

'Rise' is like the result of the series creators imagining they could call up the "Turtles Forever" version of the 2003 Turtles and get their input on things they thought the '87 Turtles might do -- exaggerated and inaccurate like in that 'movie' -- and then included it in 'Rise.'

PApagreg

11-29-2019, 06:45 PM

TommyT

11-29-2019, 06:58 PM

Hey remember in Turtles Forever the OT,2k3 and Mirage turtles defeated Mirage Shredder by throwing garbage.

And remember in OT this happened.

https://media.giphy.com/media/LR5qMVW7U8pW0ggv8X/giphy.gif

Insulting would imply you would have more brain cells than two, if anything I was overestimating your intelligence with that comment.

http://i.imgur.com/eKT2uDZ.gif

IndigoErth

11-29-2019, 08:16 PM

Though causing a mildly bumbling human Shredder to fall is far less awkward than tickling your newfound evil demon enemy...

Look at that tickle pic... Donnie is even kinda scoping things out a bit much.

But if we're going to point out silly things the first cartoon did, I prefer when Leo's swords turn to ice cream and he goes "Ice cream? Yuck!" and throws them down... like the only guy in the history of the universe, both real and imaginary, to ever be disgusted by two ice cream cones. What do you have against ice cream, Leo??

That series is all kinds of silly... but it's a genuine, innocent late 80s silly, not a "look how weird/stupid we can act!" forced expression of trying too hard to be silly.

Coola Yagami

11-29-2019, 09:49 PM

Yeah, but I'm an institution around here, and also, nobody likes me. :lol:

I can never hate someone using Big Sexy Kevin Nash as their avatar.

Coola Yagami

11-29-2019, 09:54 PM

actual scene from rise:
https://i.imgur.com/vllfjul.png?1

tickle torture:

https://i.imgur.com/ml8vhgc.png?1

nothing says tmnt, like tickling your enemy for the lols.

that's their shredder??? Wtf.

IndigoErth

11-29-2019, 10:20 PM

Yep...and was tearing around on all fours.

PApagreg

11-29-2019, 10:33 PM

That series is all kinds of silly... but it's a genuine, innocent late 80s silly, not a "look how weird/stupid we can act!" forced expression of trying too hard to be silly.

So its a silly you grew with vs the sill you are experiencing as an adult.

Candy Kappa

11-29-2019, 10:55 PM

At least the Shredder Armor in Rise have a in-world explanation how it can be halted by something like tickling seeing something isn't right with it according to Foot Lieutenant. FW Shredder is supposed to be a competent ninja master that usurped the Foot Clan, but oven in-show standards he's pretty bumbling, not B&R level of dumb bumbling idiot, but close enough.

Andrew NDB

11-29-2019, 11:06 PM

that's their shredder??? Wtf.

I honestly didn't even realize Rise had introduced Shredder yet.

Yikes.

TommyT

11-29-2019, 11:52 PM

Defeated by tickles. The word cuck came to mind at least once.

FredWolfLeonardo

11-29-2019, 11:59 PM

FW Shredder is supposed to be a competent ninja master that usurped the Foot Clan, but oven in-show standards he's pretty bumbling, not B&R level of dumb bumbling idiot, but close enough.

FW Shredder's in-lore reasons for his bumbling antics (despite his clearly established Ninja skills) is his constant gloating and how highly he thinks of himself.

Not that I blame him for it though, he is one handsome son of a gun, and anyone with his level of charisma and good looks will likely be a pompous jerk :lol:

TommyT

11-30-2019, 12:11 AM

...he is one handsome son of a gun, and anyone with his level of charisma and good looks will likely be a pompous jerk :lol:

I can vouch. Being attractive, and charming, can do that to a person.

Leo656

11-30-2019, 12:52 AM

Boy, don't I know.

I can never hate someone using Big Sexy Kevin Nash as their avatar.

Awwww. I please to aim.

PApagreg

11-30-2019, 12:03 PM

Defeated by tickles. The word cuck came to mind at least once.

I don't know what's worse you thinking he got defeated by tickles or still using the work cuck in this current year, not even Snake uses the word cuck anymore.

Also I like to remind people that Rise Shredder can do this

https://66.media.tumblr.com/65dc0727f5f5eecc6bddf084e392b79c/4c317cff4af1df64-dd/s540x810/64a7619b015f092391b5202386400e7d041da111.gif

https://66.media.tumblr.com/22f4def400bb9a8a3aabd82186f9f1f5/4c317cff4af1df64-6a/s540x810/df2350ab80f03e0fc5b7690ea618b821fbde17bb.gifv

And tanked this

https://66.media.tumblr.com/8beaf50b062d1f80ac23a181c93c4fdc/807a41a080981713-29/s540x810/b7bfcc24e66260370b0e39aafa850e0d1e642069.gifv

IndigoErth

11-30-2019, 12:21 PM

How does tickling metal armor even do anything...

But remember, folks, tickling is now mightier than the sword. And we thought the PD Turtles were overpowered.

PApagreg

11-30-2019, 12:59 PM

How does tickling metal armor even do anything...

But remember, folks, tickling is now mightier than the sword. And we thought the PD Turtles were overpowered.

Didn't OT Shredder get defeated by thrown Pizzas at one point.

snake

11-30-2019, 01:01 PM

not even Snake uses the word cuck anymore.

Yeah, that’d be pretty cucked of me to do.

CyberCubed

11-30-2019, 02:31 PM

newfan

11-30-2019, 02:38 PM

I wonder what it'll be like, 10 years from now, if this place still exists, when we're on like the 5th or 6th or 7th TMNT cartoon and all new little kids who weren't even born yet will be part of the fandom.

I'll be, "Old man Cybercubed" by then, educating the new younger fans about the history of the TMNT franchise.

LOL, I have already thought of you as 'old man Cubed' whenever you go on about age and kids today etc, light heartedly btw not as an insult. (though you are not old)

Yeah if it lasts long enough at some point those older people on the net will be those who grew up with 2012 and Rise. Not sure what to expect to come, series after series, a long break before revisiting or it just stops.

IndigoErth

11-30-2019, 03:03 PM

Didn't OT Shredder get defeated by thrown Pizzas at one point.
Given the amount of pizza, probably. But that's pretty predictable.

I prefer the pie and the toast.
https://i.imgur.com/64NXIRs.gif
https://i.imgur.com/75mGeym.gif

Okay, so that was actually aiming at Raph, but come on, it's exploding toast.

That series has so much of this random nonsensical stuff in it that makes it fun to poke at though, in a good natured way, that it's kind of difficult to defend 'Rise' by making comparisons when 'Rise' apologists seem to want the dumb (and sometimes just gross Ren & Stimpy looking) stuff in that one taken seriously... when those things aren't even trying to be serious.

I mean really...
https://i.imgur.com/pgAnJGB.gif

It might have been funny had it not looked so gross... Credit where due, the OT's dumb stuff did not stoop to this level.

PApagreg

11-30-2019, 05:13 PM

That series has so much of this random nonsensical stuff in it that makes it fun to poke at though, in a good natured way, that it's kind of difficult to defend 'Rise' by making comparisons when 'Rise' apologists seem to want the dumb (and sometimes just gross Ren & Stimpy looking) stuff in that one taken seriously... when those things aren't even trying to be serious

So again its the silly you grew up with vs the silly you are experiencing now.

I mean really...
https://i.imgur.com/pgAnJGB.gif

It might have been funny had it not looked so gross... Credit where due, the OT's dumb stuff did not stoop to this level.

Its been said before but Rise takes influence to things like Trigger shows such as Gurren Laggen and Kill La Kill. Heck Teen Titans(the original one) even did similar gag numerous of times
https://i.pinimg.com/236x/79/9d/45/799d452d1b1a9d4ef4ad3bd05e158f38--crazy-man-teen-titans.jpg
Voltron did it too
https://i.redd.it/nzxe6svarfc21.png
And Hellsing which is known for its Gore and Violence is known for having chibi moments.
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/LAHShDMmytE/hqdefault.jpg

IndigoErth

11-30-2019, 08:20 PM

Doesn't make it not stupid looking when applied to the TMNT for whatever reason this was necessary...

Also, no, point being, you're obviously not willing to play with it and the absurd parts in that one the way some are with the original cartoon. "This OT thing is weird" -- it's weird. "This 'Rise' thing is weird" -- omg hater!

PApagreg

11-30-2019, 09:07 PM

Doesn't make it not stupid looking when applied to the TMNT for whatever reason this was necessary...

And the toast scene is equally as stupid

Also, no, point being, you're obviously not willing to play with it and the absurd parts in that one the way some are with the original cartoon. "This OT thing is weird" -- it's weird. "This 'Rise' thing is weird" -- omg hater!

Can you rephrase that cause I have no idea what you just said

Candy Kappa

12-01-2019, 03:17 AM

I mean really...
https://i.imgur.com/pgAnJGB.gif

It might have been funny had it not looked so gross... Credit where due, the OT's dumb stuff did not stoop to this level.

At least they're acting like that to make the Foot laugh in a library where monsters take you away if you make too much sound

Andrew NDB

12-01-2019, 11:56 PM

TommyT

12-02-2019, 12:47 AM

It seems less to me that it should be, "The Rise of the TMNT Shredder got defeated by ridiculous hijinks in 2019 because the 1987 cartoon did that sort of thing, too!" and more "Why would the people behind Rise of the TMNT do that, when what was done in 1987 to that end was ridiculous and cringe-worthy to look back on now?"

But again, no horse in the race. Just weird to observe this from the sidelines.

It’s almost as though, the Rise team KNEW they were in trouble, for not following the expectations of fans, and are winking, through gritted teeth, as they mock us for not embracing their garbage.

ALMOST.

CyberCubed

12-04-2019, 03:35 PM

I always had this fantasy about being the lone survivor of the TMNT fandom. Like one day when I'm a 96 year old man, in the far flung future of 2060 something, and the TMNT franchise is some relic of the ancient past, I will still be there shouting from the mountaintops and educating people of "TMNT lore" and what the series was about.

I shall step out of the ashes and carry the burden of the franchise on my back for all of eternity.

Xav

12-04-2019, 04:32 PM

That's exactly what I said. Respawning generations of 5-9 year-olds. I'm saying is that if they were smart, they could keep one generation of TMNT fans and lock them into the long term if they had stuff that appealed to an older sensibility as opposed to offering literally nothing.Don't older fans have the IDW fans?

Warhorse

12-27-2019, 08:29 PM

Alright, man. Go whack off to Rainbow Brite or some other poorly animated 80s cartoon.

Funny you say that, I have the Rainbow Brite movie on DVD, and I find it to be of excellent quality.

With that said, with the name of the franchise, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, you would think the powers that be would actually focus on the fact the Turtles are teenagers, and maybe they should aim at that crowd. Same crowd that is big into the massive superhero movies or made hits out of mega franchises like LOTR, Harry Potter and StarWars. This is the crowd that will have staying power and also have the power to buy stuff, big purchases too like video games and tickets to comic book conventions.

Warhorse

12-27-2019, 08:36 PM

Having 2 different shows with 2 different tones running more or less at the same time. Would be interesting. But also expensive?

You'd make up for the cost with advertisement. And now that you have two different demographics you want to aim at, you can appeal to a much broader choice of advertisement.

Heck, I'd love it if one day Nick secured the rights to everything TMNT and had one giant marathon, starting with FW and ending with Rise or the Bay turtles (the latter I'm actually starting to like :ohwell:)

Warhorse

12-27-2019, 08:39 PM

Only one small problem with your example though, is that Rise is not "replacing" any other version of tmnt, which are all still out there to enjoy.

So Rise may be Diarrhea for you and thats all cool, but no one's taking away your chocolate.

But, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Nick canceled the 2012 Turtles, which I personally liked and would have liked them see let that version grow up, to bring in Rise. I even think they purposefully cancelled 2012 because Nick wants to dab into some of the SJW stuff that is going on.

Rooish

12-30-2019, 06:33 PM

But, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Nick canceled the 2012 Turtles, which I personally liked and would have liked them see let that version grow up, to bring in Rise. I even think they purposefully cancelled 2012 because Nick wants to dab into some of the SJW stuff that is going on.

Really? Rise is irreverent and hyper and hardly SJW at all, unless you mean black April, but does anyone really care about April enough to rightly care what they do to her? Now she's a teenager, then she's a reporter, now she's a scientist, now she's black. Whatever. At least she is a decently fun character in Rise.

This does remind me that what most disillusions me about the fandom is the recent hatred against SJWs, as though their supposed annoyingness automatically invalidates all their arguments. I think the only people who really hate SJWs have a lot of privilege in some areas and aren't negatively impacted by the issues that SJWs care about.

I think the TMNT has always been about inclusiveness and diversity and "chosen family" and things that so called SJWs care about.

Pretty sure the 2012 series got rebooted because of slumping viewership and the need for new toys and shorter episodes, not to appeal to the supposed 5 year old SJWs. That said, Rise is funny in its own right but a complete travesty as a version of TMNT.

PApagreg

12-30-2019, 07:59 PM

But, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Nick canceled the 2012 Turtles, which I personally liked and would have liked them see let that version grow up, to bring in Rise. I even think they purposefully cancelled 2012 because Nick wants to dab into some of the SJW stuff that is going on.

Can I ask why people want more 2k12 turtles, the main plot is over and any chance of resolution was wasted when they made season 5 a mix of mini arcs and what ifs stories.

That said, Rise is funny in its own right but a complete travesty as a version of TMNT.

How is it a travesty of a version of TMNT when literally the first adaption is so different from the source material that it's basically night and day.Keep in mind the turtles looked like this at one point of the franchise so the thought of this being a "travesty as a version of TMNT" is almost bizarre.

https://www.adventuresinpoortaste.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/turtles-anime-superman-legend.jpg

Rooish

12-31-2019, 09:15 AM

Can I ask why people want more 2k12 turtles, the main plot is over and any chance of resolution was wasted when they made season 5 a mix of mini arcs and what ifs stories.

How is it a travesty of a version of TMNT when literally the first adaption is so different from the source material that it's basically night and day.Keep in mind the turtles looked like this at one point of the franchise so the thought of this being a "travesty as a version of TMNT" is almost bizarre.

https://www.adventuresinpoortaste.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/turtles-anime-superman-legend.jpg

Lol, I forgot about the anime turtles. I guess the franchise survived nonetheless.

Andrew NDB

12-31-2019, 10:02 AM

But, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Nick canceled the 2012 Turtles, which I personally liked and would have liked them see let that version grow up, to bring in Rise.

Probably. Declining ratings and toy sales, Nick eager to usher in the new line with a fresh new show and all.

How is it a travesty of a version of TMNT when literally the first adaption is so different from the source material that it's basically night and day.

It's true. And then, you know, there's the whole... the source material is for teenagers to adults, and everything else is for 5 year-olds thing.

This does remind me that what most disillusions me about the fandom is the recent hatred against SJWs,

What annoys me about SJWs is their recent rise.

as though their supposed annoyingness automatically invalidates all their arguments. I think the only people who really hate SJWs have a lot of privilege in some areas and aren't negatively impacted by the issues that SJWs care about.

That sounds like something an SJW would say. ;) Though I think the invalidation comes from the well known basic stance of... SJWs perpetually looking for the chinks in the armor of things (words like "mansplaining," "toxic masculinity," "it fails the Bechdel test," "white savior," "there's not enough diversity!" "why, why can't there be a gay character?!" "this joke is problematic, and here's why," etc.) to try and tear a thing down, regardless of quality. It's just what they do. It's what they've always done.

As in, you come to the table with that... go home.

snake

12-31-2019, 12:12 PM

SJWs don't even exist. An SJW is literally an invisible boogeyman that lives only in hypothetical on the internet. Those clickbait headlines written by some soyboy that explain why some 80s movie is problematic, or why the latest Marvel output needs more trans-black women? They want your clicks. It's a f*cking business. Do you think anyone, let alone people in positions of power and media relevancy, actually believes these things? The ones that do are the leftist equivalent to Nazi LARP'ers on Stormfront, and are probably unironic commies.

I heard everyone talking sh*t on HBO's Watchmen. How it was taking a beloved property and using it to shill a political agenda, and SJW this, and SJW that. Guess what? I watched it, and it's amazing. The people writing the show clearly know what they're doing, and aren't drumming up controversy by making a laughable reference to "incels" or the "alt right", and treat the theme of race with maturity. You want the cinematic equivalent of clickbait headlines? The new Star Wars trilogy is the perfect example. Written entirely by incompetant idiots who happen to both be in power, and believe everything written by some f*ckwad straight out of California. I guess it makes sense, because all it takes is one bitch (Kathleen Kennedy) to bring in all her c*nt friends, and sooner or later they're all going to start stinking up the place, believing they're doing good or some virtue signalling bullsh*t like that.

The point is, I don't think black April was a "political" decision, and more one of "someone had this design laying around and thought it was cute and decided to use it". The president of Viacom isn't going around championing Apirl as some sort of black icon, or some publicity bullsh*t they'd pull with the FemBusters or Captain Marvel. She's treated just like a normal character, like she should.

Andrew NDB

12-31-2019, 12:15 PM

SJWs don't even exist.

Oh, they exist. I know plenty that proudly bear the title, even. They love it.

I heard everyone talking sh*t on HBO's Watchmen. How it was taking a beloved property and using it to shill a political agenda, and SJW this, and SJW that.

Oh, it was. God was it. Unless things completely changed course after episode 2 and I'm wrong (but I doubt it). The first two episodes alone... man, I've never seen a thing so chock full of white guilt and virtue signalling in my life. It took everything for me to watch the second episode but I can't fathom continuing it any further.

snake

12-31-2019, 12:25 PM

The first episode was pretty bad, but it certainly doesn't have the "vibe" something like GB2016 or NuWars has. The show dealing with race is fine, because it reflects something relevant to today's political climate like how the comic dealt with nuclear war.

The main character isn't going around saying "F*ck white men", or anything on-the-nose, and is a pretty cool main character overall. Nothing compelling, but it's nowhere near as bad as I heard.

The Seventh Calvary hate group isn't even ridiculous or comical. They don't have a secret underground 4chan knock-off, or talk about how there's too many women in movies these days. They're literally a bunch of anti-police white supremacists wearing Rorschach masks. It makes sense in universe, because Rorschach's journal obviously would have been misinterpreted when printed in a sensationalist right-wing newspaper. The show doesn't portray the police state as a good thing either.

It's a well written show, and the love and understanding for the comic is there, especially with all of the synchronicity, themes, and visual motifs. The Ozymandias scenes in particular are genuinely amazing.

I'd watch it all the way through. Just because it brings racial tensions to logical conclusions in a universe where President Robert Redford starts using taxpayer dollars to give out "we're sorry" money for victims of race riots doesn't mean it's garbage.

Warhorse

12-31-2019, 03:01 PM

Can I ask why people want more 2k12 turtles, the main plot is over and any chance of resolution was wasted when they made season 5 a mix of mini arcs and what ifs stories.
For starters, the animation in 2012 doesn't look disgusting (don't like the Rise animation at all, it's like I'm watching the Looney Toons version of the TMNT) I also liked the voice actors much more and I also loved how it threw Easter Eggs in there for the fans like bringing in Corey Feldman as a cameo. ANd near the end of the series, it screamed of studio interference, which is always a death sentence for a property.

How is it a travesty of a version of TMNT when literally the first adaption is so different from the source material that it's basically night and day.Keep in mind the turtles looked like this at one point of the franchise so the thought of this being a "travesty as a version of TMNT" is almost bizarre.

Let's see, Fred Wolf cartoon came out when I was like 9, and I did love it. But then the 1990 movie came out, and just like Tim Burton's Batman, the new dark tone of the movie peaked my interest. Since then, just like many other fans, I prefer the more intelligent approach. Now, Batman went through clunkers like Batman Forever and Batman and Robin before they went back to the drawing board and put the movies into Nolan's hands, and then they made box office gold. Sadly, the TMNT has yet to get that on the big screen, and it's due to stupid studio runners who instead of letting the show grow, would rather hold it back to the point the audience grows beyond it, and then instead of taking the same show back to the drawing board and find ways to bring that audience back, they turn around and make something so absurd that it's hardly recognizable. Say what you want, but for the most part at least the Fred Wolf series kept the Turtles in their same ranks (Leo the leader) and made sure they had their signature weapons. Taking Raphael's sais away is like removing Wolverine's claws and healing factor.

Either way, looks like you are in the minority when it comes to people who actually liked the Rise series. The fact that it looks like it's going to cancelled shows that people rejected this new iteration of the Turtles, and I am glad. That will teach them a lesson on changing something up so much on a beloved franchise.

CyberCubed

12-31-2019, 04:04 PM

I don't think Rise made much an impact even on kids to matter, it airs at obscure times and doesn't have anywhere the amount of following the 2012 cartoon did.

Then again I'm not 8-12 years old anymore, so if kids of today like it, that's fine.

PApagreg

12-31-2019, 04:46 PM

For starters, the animation in 2012 doesn't look disgusting (don't like the Rise animation at all, it's like I'm watching the Looney Toons version of the TMNT) I also liked the voice actors much more and I also loved how it threw Easter Eggs in there for the fans like bringing in Corey Feldman as a cameo. ANd near the end of the series, it screamed of studio interference, which is always a death sentence for a property

Well I don't see how Rise looks disgusting but there are tons of Easter Eggs(don't know why that would be important) like savage Raph for an example also the season 5 plan was by the creators themselves I doubt the studio would interfer

Say what you want, but for the most part at least the Fred Wolf series kept the Turtles in their same ranks (Leo the leader) and made sure they had their signature weapons. Taking Raphael's sais away is like removing Wolverine's claws and healing factor.

1. Didn't the FW show change Mikey's nunchucks in later seasons

2. Wolverine's claws and healing factor isn't just something that is iconic but relates to his feral character and which can't be the same for Raph's sais despite being iconic. Heck once you think about it Raph's weapon fits him the least out of all the turtles, Leo's swords show his Bushido nature, Don's Bo staff show his pacifisim and even Mikey's nun chucks shows of his fun personality and natural talent. Sai's aren't really weapons that you use to go feral because they are mostly blunt instruments are mostly used to parry other weapons which I scene Raph do one time in one iteration(2k12). If anything things like axes or funnily enough tonfa would be more apt to Raph's personality because they show off his blunt and simple nature.

Either way, looks like you are in the minority when it comes to people who actually liked the Rise series. The fact that it looks like it's going to cancelled shows that people rejected this new iteration of the Turtles, and I am glad. That will teach them a lesson on changing something up so much on a beloved franchise.

Yeah that should teach them never mind the fact the OT did it years ago but you guys still loved that and never mind that since this decade started pretty much every iteration before Rise was just a Frankenstein monster of what came before it. I hope the people who worked on Rise learn to never do anything new or experimental and do the same thing over and over again.

Andrew NDB

12-31-2019, 05:11 PM

1. Didn't the FW show change Mikey's nunchucks in later seasons

Yeah, but nobody was watching it anymore. Except some of you guys.

Warhorse

12-31-2019, 05:18 PM

Well I don't see how Rise looks disgusting but there are tons of Easter Eggs(don't know why that would be important) like savage Raph for an example also the season 5 plan was by the creators themselves I doubt the studio would interfer

Savage Raph isn't exactly an Easter Egg. And you have no idea how studios will interfere with a show or movie for some BS reason. Most of the time is because a CEO has a huge ego and wants to abuse his power.

1. Didn't the FW show change Mikey's nunchucks in later seasons
Yes, mostly due to UK's ban on anything Ninja and cinema had some prejudice against nunchucks. In fact, there was a time with the TMNT were known as Teenage Mutant Hero Turtles And guess what, fans HATED that too and these changes ended up being the down fall for the Turtles. They would rather listen to soccer moms instead of the actual fans who were collecting the toys and comics.

2. Wolverine's claws and healing factor isn't just something that is iconic but relates to his feral character and which can't be the same for Raph's sais despite being iconic. Heck once you think about it Raph's weapon fits him the least out of all the turtles, Leo's swords show his Bushido nature, Don's Bo staff show his pacifisim and even Mikey's nun chucks shows of his fun personality and natural talent. Sai's aren't really weapons that you use to go feral because they are mostly blunt instruments are mostly used to parry other weapons which I scene Raph do one time in one iteration(2k12). If anything things like axes or funnily enough tonfa would be more apt to Raph's personality because they show off his blunt and simple nature.

Bull shiznit on all of this. You're just pulling crap out of your anus now and you know it. And, I'm starting to wonder if you secretly work on Rise of the Turtles and some of these moronic ideas came from you and its why you are all defensive that the majority have spoken and said HELL TO THE NO on the changes.

Yeah that should teach them never mind the fact the OT did it years ago but you guys still loved that and never mind that since this decade started pretty much every iteration before Rise was just a Frankenstein monster of what came before it. I hope the people who worked on Rise learn to never do anything new or experimental and do the same thing over and over again.
Like I said before, the Fred Wolf was the first iteration to the mass public of the TMNT lore. They set the bench mark. But when the 1990 movie came out, it opened up a whole new world to the fans, the gritty more based on the comic book, and since then, people been screaming for that and not the watered down version. Same thing happened with Batman. The black and white show was the first to introduce the character and the world to the masses. At the time, people loved it, but then came Tim Burton's more mature Batman, and since then, people have wanted only that version. And we are okay with something new, but not completely alienating the original fans all together, nor making something that is reductive in quality, not productive.

Sad thing, I think whoever is in charge of the TMNT programming know what the fans want, the biggest thing is more in line with the earlier seasons of the 2k3 show. And, the reason why they won't release it in bluray is because then the hard core numbers will come out and their egos can't handle that kind of truth, even though it's stupid on their part because statistics, logistics and recognizing purchasing patterns is the best way to cater to the audience that is going to spend the most money on your product. Shame these CEO's would rather lose out on money than admit their stupid decisions of change blew up miserably in their faces.:lol:

PApagreg

12-31-2019, 10:04 PM

Savage Raph isn't exactly an Easter Egg. And you have no idea how studios will interfere with a show or movie for some BS reason. Most of the time is because a CEO has a huge ego and wants to abuse his power.

You don't know either, why would CEO interference include Tiger Claw reviving Shredder, Miyamoto Usagi appearances an episode about Splinter raising the turtles and a post post apocalyptic mini arc starring Raph none of those make sense.

Yes, mostly due to UK's ban on anything Ninja and cinema had some prejudice against nunchucks. In fact, there was a time with the TMNT were known as Teenage Mutant Hero Turtles And guess what, fans HATED that too and these changes ended up being the down fall for the Turtles. They would rather listen to soccer moms instead of the actual fans who were collecting the toys and comics.

Mikey's chucks got replaced in season 4 and they still had 6 seasons of the show left despite it being the "downfall" for the turtles

Bull shiznit on all of this. You're just pulling crap out of your anus now and you know it. And, I'm starting to wonder if you secretly work on Rise of the Turtles and some of these moronic ideas came from you and its why you are all defensive that the majority have spoken and said HELL TO THE NO on the changes.

What's with you Gen Xers and making dumb conspiracies whenever people have a different interpretation/opinion than you. Seriously if you are going full Alex Jones then at least try to refute some of my argumentsand explain why you disagree with them before you go through your tin foil tantrum.

Like I said before, the Fred Wolf was the first iteration to the mass public of the TMNT lore. They set the bench mark. But when the 1990 movie came out, it opened up a whole new world to the fans, the gritty more based on the comic book, and since then, people been screaming for that and not the watered down version. Same thing happened with Batman. The black and white show was the first to introduce the character and the world to the masses. At the time, people loved it, but then came Tim Burton's more mature Batman, and since then, people have wanted only that version. And we are okay with something new, but not completely alienating the original fans all together, nor making something that is reductive in quality, not productive.

So its okay for the adaption to change when you grew up with it, at least Andrew is consistent also for the past decade every iteration before Rise catered to you "original fans" but one little adaption where the creators decided to experiment a little and you guys act like its "alienating" you. Also compare to 2k12 Rise is productive in quality.

Sad thing, I think whoever is in charge of the TMNT programming know what the fans want, the biggest thing is more in line with the earlier seasons of the 2k3 show. And, the reason why they won't release it in bluray is because then the hard core numbers will come out and their egos can't handle that kind of truth, even though it's stupid on their part because statistics, logistics and recognizing purchasing patterns is the best way to cater to the audience that is going to spend the most money on your product. Shame these CEO's would rather lose out on money than admit their stupid decisions of change blew up miserably in their faces.:lol

Let me get this straight my interpretation of why Raph's sais doesn't fit him is me "talking out of my anus" but you talking about things such as "statistics, logistics and recognizing purchasing patterns" with no hint of evidence or sources isn't, okay.

Warhorse

01-01-2020, 02:33 PM

You don't know either, why would CEO interference include Tiger Claw reviving Shredder, Miyamoto Usagi appearances an episode about Splinter raising the turtles and a post post apocalyptic mini arc starring Raph none of those make sense.

And you don't know if the CEO's have more imprint or not yourself.

Mikey's chucks got replaced in season 4 and they still had 6 seasons of the show left despite it being the "downfall" for the turtles

Was it the downfall for sure? Probably not? More than likely the Next Mutation was the one that did it and took Peter Laird's personal involvement with 2k3 to bring the franchise back to something that people with intelligence could enjoy. But, like it or not, people did notice Mikey changing his nunchucks and they were not happy about it. And we know it's because of soccer moms crying and whining. Same ones that are now behind the COPPA movement that is going to become a nightmare for anyone who makes a cartoon and it's not geared for kids.

What's with you Gen Xers and making dumb conspiracies whenever people have a different interpretation/opinion than you. Seriously if you are going full Alex Jones then at least try to refute some of my argumentsand explain why you disagree with them before you go through your tin foil tantrum.
Yep! I think you definitely have some kind of behind the scenes involvement with this show. You are very defensive and now throwing insults. How cute!:lol:

So its okay for the adaption to change when you grew up with it, at least Andrew is consistent also for the past decade every iteration before Rise catered to you "original fans" but one little adaption where the creators decided to experiment a little and you guys act like its "alienating" you. Also compare to 2k12 Rise is productive in quality.

Stop with the BS. The 2k12 changed the ages of April, Casey and Karai, and we were just fine with it. In fact, I really enjoyed that aspect. I also liked the idea in the 2014 movie that the Turtles were April's pets and it was neat how they managed to somehow mesh her scientific roots from the comics through her father while retaining her FW reporter roots. But guess what, I too thought it was stupid to make Shredder into a white guy, so some changes are good, some, not so good.

And oh, if it wasn't for us original fans that helped make the TMNT into the huge cult hit it's become, you wouldn't even have your stupid Rise of the TMNT!

Let me get this straight my interpretation of why Raph's sais doesn't fit him is me "talking out of my anus" but you talking about things such as "statistics, logistics and recognizing purchasing patterns" with no hint of evidence or sources isn't, okay.

For starters, your BS story on why Raph's sais don't fit is ludicrous. I have to tip my hat to Lair and Eastman, because they took a simple and stupid drawing on napkins of turtles with masks on, and then managed to create a set of characters that are very dynamic, but also seemed to use their opposites to create a pretty good team. Leo and Raph are the alpha males on the team. Leo's weapon is the Katana, which suits his calm personality while Raphael is the exact opposite of him, including his weapon which is interesting enough, designed to block and disarm sword wielders.

As for the other part. Why won't Nick sell the 2k3 as a bluRay collectors set? Probably same reasons why Kathleen Kennedy is giving Star Wars fans a big middle finger, or Disney buying out Fox and then decides to put most of Fox's catalog in their vaults. Egos. And these companies are also run by stock holders, whereas those who are on an ego boost would not want to see what a stock analyst might think if the 2k3 BluRays are selling so fast and they will demand more in this direction.

But then again, this could be why Rise was being shown at odd times on Nick. Maybe somebody in the company knew this was not the direction they want the TMNT to go down, but maybe their arms are tied because of some contractual obligation with a show runner. Could also be why they might be looking at Netflix. Be a clever way to start catering the TMNT to a more mature audience without alarming the soccer moms. But then again, we have COPPA to contend with, and I'm not sure if their influence could hurt the likes of how Netflix markets it's programming.

Candy Kappa

01-01-2020, 02:47 PM

And we know it's because of soccer moms crying and whining. Same ones that are now behind the COPPA movement that is going to become a nightmare for anyone who makes a cartoon and it's not geared for kids.

COPPA is a US Federal Law, not a movement :lol:

TommyT

01-01-2020, 03:02 PM

COPPA is a US Federal Law, not a movement :lol:

And who wrote the law? Who does it serve? Follow the money.

Candy Kappa

01-01-2020, 03:05 PM

You do know what COPPA is right?

Autbot_Benz

01-01-2020, 03:46 PM

But then again, we have COPPA to contend with, and I'm not sure if their influence could hurt the likes of how Netflix markets it's programming.

Coppa only affects youtube from what I understand since Youtube got caught mining/selling children's data instead of taking responsibility for it they gave the finger to youtube creators/ adult toy reviewers. Now I think there is a middle ground where they can mark a video not safe for kids and still get paid. But if your video is marked safe for kids you don't make any add revenue.

PApagreg

01-01-2020, 06:25 PM

And you don't know if the CEO's have more imprint or not yourself.

I'm not the one who made the positive claim, you did.

Was it the downfall for sure? Probably not? More than likely the Next Mutation was the one that did it and took Peter Laird's personal involvement with 2k3 to bring the franchise back to something that people with intelligence could enjoy. But, like it or not, people did notice Mikey changing his nunchucks and they were not happy about it. And we know it's because of soccer moms crying and whining. Same ones that are now behind the COPPA movement that is going to become a nightmare for anyone who makes a cartoon and it's not geared for kids.

1. People may not have been happy but FW still got 6 seasons and the point still stands that your precious OT changed a character weapons decades before Rise did.

2. COPPA has been a thing for 19 years, actually do research before you spout things.

Yep! I think you definitely have some kind of behind the scenes involvement with this show. You are very defensive and now throwing insults. How cute!:lol:

Umm you're the one who threw insults first champ with the whole "Talking out of your anus" crap seriously first TommyT and now you. You Gen Xers are like a kid who punches someone and when they punch you back you cry to the teacher.

Stop with the BS. The 2k12 changed the ages of April, Casey and Karai, and we were just fine with it. In fact, I really enjoyed that aspect. I also liked the idea in the 2014 movie that the Turtles were April's pets and it was neat how they managed to somehow mesh her scientific roots from the comics through her father while retaining her FW reporter roots. But guess what, I too thought it was stupid to make Shredder into a white guy, so some changes are good, some, not so good.

Oh wow changes to supporting characters and slight change to an origin, you OT fans are sooooo open minded

And oh, if it wasn't for us original fans that helped make the TMNT into the huge cult hit it's become, you wouldn't even have your stupid Rise of the TMNT!

1. The original fans were the people who first got introduce to the comic, you OT kids aren't really "original fans" if we want to be accurate.

2. You didn't helped with anything, your parents brought toys to a cartoon you liked and you watched it every Saturday morning because you enjoy it. Don't tell people to be grateful just because you consume a product when you were a kid it makes you sound entitled.

For starters, your BS story on why Raph's sais don't fit is ludicrous.

Can you please at least try to act like an adult and explain why you disagree because this is not getting us anywhere.

Leo's weapon is the Katana, which suits his calm personality while Raphael is the exact opposite of him, including his weapon which is interesting enough, designed to block and disarm sword wielders.

Okay but how often do you see Raph disarm sword wielders also if your weapon is used to parry something it doesn't make sense to have an aggressive personality.

And these companies are also run by stock holders, whereas those who are on an ego boost would not want to see what a stock analyst might think if the 2k3 BluRays are selling so fast and they will demand more in this direction.

Where are you getting any of this

But then again, this could be why Rise was being shown at odd times on Nick. Maybe somebody in the company knew this was not the direction they want the TMNT to go down, but maybe their arms are tied because of some contractual obligation with a show runner. Could also be why they might be looking at Netflix. Be a clever way to start catering the TMNT to a more mature audience without alarming the soccer moms. But then again, we have COPPA to contend with, and I'm not sure if their influence could hurt the likes of how Netflix markets it's programming.

Dude stop mentioning Coppa, its clear you have no idea what it is and probably just skimmed it or something and its painful whenever you mentioned it.

TommyT

01-01-2020, 07:45 PM

1. People may not have been happy but FW still got 6 seasons and the point still stands that your precious OT changed a character weapons decades before Rise did

Umm you're the one who threw insults first champ with the whole "Talking out of your anus" crap seriously first TommyT and now you. You Gen Xers are like a kid who punches someone and when they punch you back you cry to the teacher.

Oh wow changes to supporting characters and slight change to an origin, you OT fans are sooooo open minded

1. The original fans were the people who first got introduce to the comic, you OT kids aren't really "original fans" if we want to be accurate.

Can you please at least try to act like an adult and explain why you disagree because this is not getting us anywhere.

Please read the rules. I will continue to report your bad behavior until a mod deals with it.
https://i.imgur.com/lGHwFm0.png

Jester

01-01-2020, 08:36 PM

PApagreg, knock it off. People are allowed to not like Rise just like you're allowed to like it. This constant bickering is ridiculous.

Coola Yagami

01-01-2020, 09:14 PM

Yeah, but nobody was watching it anymore. Except some of you guys.

That's impossible. Mikey's weapon changed started when the Turtles hit CBS and it became an hour show with two episodes. Then it carried over no matter if newer episodes were part of the CBS show or the regular weekly show. It was a high point for new episodes after nonstop season 3 reruns. People were def still watching.

Andrew NDB

01-02-2020, 12:19 AM

That's impossible. Mikey's weapon changed started when the Turtles hit CBS and it became an hour show with two episodes. Then it carried over no matter if newer episodes were part of the CBS show or the regular weekly show. It was a high point for new episodes after nonstop season 3 reruns. People were def still watching.

Maybe. I just know everyone in my generation in my school liked TMNT... and then suddenly they didn't. And when they did, Mikey sure still had his chuks in the cartoon.

AquaParade

01-02-2020, 05:38 AM

Candy Kappa

01-02-2020, 05:42 AM

Please read the rules. I will continue to report your bad behavior until a mod deals with it.
https://i.imgur.com/lGHwFm0.png

Well, you'd be the one knowing about bad behavior. :lol:

TommyT

01-02-2020, 09:40 AM

PApagreg, knock it off. People are allowed to not like Rise just like you're allowed to like it. This constant bickering is ridiculous.

Thank you.

The point is, I don't think black April was a "political" decision, and more one of "someone had this design laying around and thought it was cute and decided to use it". The president of Viacom isn't going around championing Apirl as some sort of black icon, or some publicity bullsh*t they'd pull with the FemBusters or Captain Marvel. She's treated just like a normal character, like she should.

You had me for most of the argument, and you're being charitable to Nick, but to close your eyes to the intentional race swapping, under the guise that she looked cute? First of all, she's not remotely cute, from any objective position, and secondly, She's a pastiche of SJW women in general, a black Kelly Sue Deconnick, if we're being honest.
Baby Yoda, she is not.

So no, while they're not waving the progressive flag and marching in the streets, it was absolutely a strategic move, aimed at the demo they think will buy these toys. when your business approaches a billion dollars, decisions are not whimsical in the slightest.

Despite all the market testing, that demo didn't spend money. Shocker.

This goes back to my point, months ago now, that April, for better or worse, is a sexual icon, and removing that from the TMNT dynamic as they did in Rise, breaks the magic.

Candy Kappa

01-02-2020, 10:11 AM

This goes back to my point, months ago now, that April, for better or worse, is a sexual icon, and removing that from the TMNT dynamic as they did in Rise, breaks the magic.

2012 April is a sexual icon... ?

Gross, dude

TommyT

01-02-2020, 10:33 AM

2012 April is a sexual icon... ?

Gross, dude

Yeah, because THAT's what I said.

But, if you want to go down that rabbit hole, we can, dude. Pretty sure they introduced her in a yellow spacesuit in the 4th season, with sexual overtones.

https://i.imgur.com/bOG6YQu.png
https://i.imgur.com/OOMcIpG.png

Video here, as a refersher.
xyG3p2t7nzI

There was also the inter-species romantic subplot, and love triangle, also driven by Nick.

She was Sexualized by Nick, so take it up with them. Also, at the start of the series, she's 16. Men being attracted to 17/18 year old girls is neither novel, nor surprising.

Feel free to play the prude card if you like, but it's pretty normal, and you know it.

Candy Kappa

01-02-2020, 10:48 AM

Yeah, because THAT's what I said.

Well, you excluded only Rise April from the "Sexual Icon" comment, so maybe it was just her skin tone and not young age that turned you off, who knows. We've had pedos here before *shrug*

But, if you want to go down that rabbit hole, we can, dude. Pretty sure they introduced her in a yellow spacesuit in the 4th season, with sexual overtones.

You can keep that rabbithole to yourself, this forum is supposed to be somewhat clean, so no hentai pics please.

She was Sexualized by Nick, so take it up with them. Also, at the start of the series, she's 16. Men being attracted to 17/18 year old girls is neither novel, nor surprising.

Yes. Many wrinkly old men can't stay in their age Group, doesn't make ity any less gross, especially when the girls are girls, underage girls and not adult women.

Feel free to play the prude card if you like, but it's pretty normal, and you know it.

Hah, that's adorable you claim the nsfw artist is pulling a prude card, sure buddy :lol:

TommyT

01-02-2020, 11:17 AM

Well, you excluded only Rise April from the "Sexual Icon" comment, so maybe it was just her skin tone and not young age that turned you off, who knows. We've had pedos here before *shrug*

You can keep that rabbithole to yourself, this forum is supposed to be somewhat clean, so no hentai pics please.

Yes. Many wrinkly old men can't stay in their age Group, doesn't make ity any less gross, especially when the girls are girls, underage girls and not adult women.

Hah, that's adorable you claim the nsfw artist is pulling a prude card, sure buddy :lol:

Are we getting personal? Shall i outline the rules for you as well? Or do you want to get really personal? Girls are girls, On that we can agree.
I understand you don't like me, but I won't be baited into these straw man arguments, simply because you support the bastardization of TMNT currently on offer.

You're painting me as a racist or a pedo. good look for you. shall i go and name call you? I can, but would it be moral? you seem to be attacking my morality, so let's look at the facts, such as they are:

Age of consent in the US
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_the_United_States#/media/File:Ages_of_Consent_-_United_States.svg

Age of Consent world wide (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_age_of_consent)

If we're going by what is considered "legal" perhaps you may also want to take a peak at the parts of the planet that have homosexuality as forbidden.

tldr, stop throwing shade for the sake of shade, your morality is no purer than my own. I'm not espousing anything that isn't legal or wrong. The Rise version of April IS too young to be sexualized, and was race swapped and dressed as an SJW.

it backfired, my point stands.

Candy Kappa

01-02-2020, 11:25 AM

did You find any what I wrote too personal?

neatoman

01-02-2020, 12:31 PM

https://i.imgur.com/bOG6YQu.png
https://i.imgur.com/OOMcIpG.png

Video here, as a refersher.
xyG3p2t7nzI

That space suit isn't really sexy, it's fairly loose fitting and doesn't show any skin. Not sure why anyone would be turned on by it.
In addition to not having much sex appeal, the music and the "You're creeping me out" comment, makes this seem more like it makes fun of fanservice.

If they wanted to sexualise her, they would have shown her wearing a bikini at some point. That's actually considered OK to do in American kids' shows.
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/KM951rLu4PQ/maxresdefault.jpg

CyberCubed

01-02-2020, 01:04 PM

American cartoons usually do not do fan service in the traditional sense. This isn’t anime which always sexualizes girls under 18 as the norm no matter what show you’re watching.

I can’t think of any American cartoon that ever did such a thing. Even the pic above of Wasp from Avengers isn’t too bad given she’s in her 20’s.

TommyT

01-02-2020, 01:55 PM

That space suit isn't really sexy, it's fairly loose fitting and doesn't show any skin. Not sure why anyone would be turned on by it.
In addition to not having much sex appeal, the music and the "You're creeping me out" comment, makes this seem more like it makes fun of fanservice.

If they wanted to sexualise her, they would have shown her wearing a bikini at some point. That's actually considered OK to do in American kids' shows.
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/KM951rLu4PQ/maxresdefault.jpg

That’s ok if you don’t read the hearts, the shocked expressions, the slow zip and the butt shot as sexualizing her, but that IS what is happening. It’s not there to indicate she’s really smart or that she’s proficient at golf.

We know, in that moment, april has adopted the 1987 yellow suit, and the boys wen’t cray cray.

Subtle is often sexier than obvious.

Warhorse

01-02-2020, 03:48 PM

You do know what COPPA is right?

Yep, long story short, parents are not doing their part to pay attention to what their children are doing and take responsibility for it. Now, the government wants the rest of us to be the babysitters to these kids. Personally, I think they should revise the laws that kids under 13 don't have access to the internet period without adult supervision at all times.

2012 April is a sexual icon... ?

Gross, dude

Not sure about sexual icon, but I did find it weird that the show liked to focus on her butt alot. Especially that one scene where she is tied up in precarious position that is often seen in bondage porn. The design itself is weird. They have a yellow sticker right on ass. Makes me wonder what was going through the designers heads when they decided on that detail.

Warhorse

01-02-2020, 04:02 PM

You had me for most of the argument, and you're being charitable to Nick, but to close your eyes to the intentional race swapping, under the guise that she looked cute? First of all, she's not remotely cute, from any objective position, and secondly, She's a pastiche of SJW women in general, a black Kelly Sue Deconnick, if we're being honest.
Baby Yoda, she is not.

So no, while they're not waving the progressive flag and marching in the streets, it was absolutely a strategic move, aimed at the demo they think will buy these toys. when your business approaches a billion dollars, decisions are not whimsical in the slightest.

Despite all the market testing, that demo didn't spend money. Shocker.

This goes back to my point, months ago now, that April, for better or worse, is a sexual icon, and removing that from the TMNT dynamic as they did in Rise, breaks the magic.

Funny thing though, I do think this new change in April is definitely to cater to a fad at the moment, but, back in the 90's, I was watching En Vogue's "Hold On", and thinking the main singer with the short hair looked strikingly like April from FW, and I would totally be open to her playing April.

TommyT

01-03-2020, 03:25 PM

Funny thing though, I do think this new change in April is definitely to cater to a fad at the moment, but, back in the 90's, I was watching En Vogue's "Hold On", and thinking the main singer with the short hair looked strikingly like April from FW, and I would totally be open to her playing April.

Some people want Idris Elba to play Bond and MB Jordan as Superman.
If Jordan plays Superman, I'm good so long as it's Calvin Ellis. I would say there are tons of other actors i would choose ahead of Jordan, like, most of them, but he's not a bad actor, just an obnoxious one with no charisma.

Now that I've seen Idris as a furry cat, he'll be hard to take as Bond, but not impossible.

Bond was, in my opinion, done well by a few different actors, we've had all sorts of quality Bond. Idris would be a fresh take, and he's bond like already.
April has never been done well in live action. I'd like to see her played well as written first, before the race swapping begins.

I hate the look of Rise april. She's a low key pink hair.

Andrew NDB

01-03-2020, 04:03 PM

Now that I've seen Idris as a furry cat, he'll be hard to take as Bond, but not impossible.

Is that an admission you went out and saw the movie?

IMJ

01-03-2020, 04:59 PM

Not sure about sexual icon, but I did find it weird that the show liked to focus on her butt alot.

I think it's safe to say that the character was sexualized a bit on the show, which is a much different observation than anyone who tells you that she was a "sexual icon".

But I also perceived it more as a teenage-style-joke and wink to the audience much the same way the kids look at "El" in Stranger Things. And so it's not that we laugh and enjoy it because we the audience find her (El or 2012 April) desirable, but instead we laugh and enjoy it because we understand that the characters of the show do.

TommyT

01-03-2020, 06:01 PM

Is that an admission you went out and saw the movie?

It's on youtube, or at least it was. Cringe factor 2000.

vicsavage

01-06-2020, 08:37 PM

Why is having a black character a "SJW" decision

Leo656

01-06-2020, 09:39 PM

A black character in and of itself is not.

Flipping a character who is/was white into a non-white character is very much a "SJW" decision. It implicitly sends the message that 1. "Too many honkies" is Not OK, and 2. Someone is literally holding a checklist and keeping score to make sure that the numbers are represented in an "acceptable" manner.

Changing a white character into a non-white character is simply Racist. Changing a non-white character into a white character is ALSO simply racist. It's not acceptable from either side, BUT some people encourage it because they want everything to simply be a numbers game, and in their eyes there is an imaginary number of how many White and Non-White characters is "acceptable" for a story to have.

Flipping Male characters to Female, same thing, just as ridiculous, hurts way more than it helps. Pandering nonsense, solves nothing.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

01-07-2020, 11:42 AM

vicsavage

01-07-2020, 03:12 PM

Sumac

01-07-2020, 04:42 PM

So character race and sex is immutable? Nick Fury in the Avengers movies is a racist decision? Characters can be reinterpreted to have different circumstances, origins and personalities but if they're white they've got to stay white?

Was making Magneto a Jewish Holocaust survivor SJWism run amok?
Magneto being a Holocaust survivor was integral part of his character and motivations.
It was not done just to get headpats from Twitter.

vicsavage

01-07-2020, 07:46 PM

It was still added decades later by people who didn't create Magneto.

Leo656

01-07-2020, 09:24 PM

So character race and sex is immutable? Nick Fury in the Avengers movies is a racist decision? Characters can be reinterpreted to have different circumstances, origins and personalities but if they're white they've got to stay white?

Yes it was a racist decision (which was first done for the comic book series The Ultimates, way before the movies). Someone looked at the Avengers roster, said "Too many white people! This is a problem!", and then set about to "fix" the problem by making a white character black. Someone with half a brain would have simply taken an already-established black character and "promoted" them to a more prominent position on the team, if it were simply about "we need a black guy." BUT, that takes talent and creativity, and ALSO carries none of the shock value that these stunts rely on for effectiveness. They WANT people to be annoyed and chattering about it; you promote an existing black character, nobody cares. "Flip" an established character into a different race, then everyone has something to say. It's marketing bullsh*t. They do it for attention. There's nothing truly altruistic about it.

"Too Many White People" also implies that there is an "Acceptable Number" of Caucasian characters that any story is allowed to have, and if you're over the line then it's a serious problem in need of fixing, and that's frankly horse sh*t. If I decide to make a movie about Ireland or Scotland in the 1700s, for example, and I'm trying to be as authentic as possible, odds are extremely slim that I'm going to include any non-white characters; maybe one if they were a figure of notable historical importance and their inclusion is critical to the story I'm telling, but any writer or creative type needs to be free to make those decisions for themselves, NOT go down the list with a checklist and "flip" a few people just to make the numbers even. That's nonsense.

For the record, you assume a lot by saying "Characters can be reinterpreted to have different circumstances, origins and personalities". I don't really agree with that much at all. I know it's a thing people do often nowadays - lazy people, mostly - but it annoys me. "I want to write Batman, BUT, I don't have any good ideas for the character as he exists and has been established. So what I'M gonna do, is change as much as I need to in order to force the character to fit a story I CAN tell... even if the character doesn't resemble themselves any more. Whatever's best for MY story." No, I am definitely not a fan of that. It takes no talent whatsoever to "reimagine" Sherlock Holmes as The Shadow and just call it a "new interpretation". There HAS to be some consistency or else the "creator" is just masturbating. If Batman can fly and his parents weren't killed and he's dirt poor, he's NOT Batman anymore, he's now a completely different character wearing a familiar costume, and that's ALL he is.

Things of little consequence can sometimes be changed, if there's a good enough reason for it. Hair color, eye color, favorite food, these things don't ultimately mean much most of the time (although they can). Things such as race, origin, sex, etc. are fundamental and should be left alone. It is completely impossible for anyone to change my mind about this.

Flipping a character's race, sex, or sexual orientation is something lazy writers do for shock value. Period. It's not a practice that should be respected nor celebrated. Put simply, it's "cheap heat".

d_osborn

01-08-2020, 09:34 PM

Flipping a character's race, sex, or sexual orientation is something lazy writers do for shock value. Period. It's not a practice that should be respected nor celebrated. Put simply, it's "cheap heat".
I 100% disagree. Some genius TV exec flipped race/background and made The Beverly Hillbillies immensely more watchable as The Fresh Prince of Bel Air. As much as I disagree with The Rural Purge, it had strong benefits.

https://d1k5w7mbrh6vq5.cloudfront.net/images/series/entries/57/7d8505c766e4a5322e3f6103e8985abd.jpg

Slade

01-08-2020, 11:07 PM

wait..what..

Feel like I'm behind now.

Warhorse

01-09-2020, 04:21 AM

Why is having a black character a "SJW" decision

A black character in and of itself is not.

Flipping a character who is/was white into a non-white character is very much a "SJW" decision. It implicitly sends the message that 1. "Too many honkies" is Not OK, and 2. Someone is literally holding a checklist and keeping score to make sure that the numbers are represented in an "acceptable" manner.

Changing a white character into a non-white character is simply Racist. Changing a non-white character into a white character is ALSO simply racist. It's not acceptable from either side, BUT some people encourage it because they want everything to simply be a numbers game, and in their eyes there is an imaginary number of how many White and Non-White characters is "acceptable" for a story to have.

Flipping Male characters to Female, same thing, just as ridiculous, hurts way more than it helps. Pandering nonsense, solves nothing.

What Leo656 said. And the truth is, when these new producers come along and try to change anything, they do it in the most obnoxious way. Hence why there was huge backlash against the first Michael Bay film when it was revealed they were going to have a white guy play Shredder.

With that aside, I do think if the producers want to bring more people of color into the TMNT world, then why not bring someone like Angel? She's always been a character I wished they would have done more with, because her world would fit perfectly with the Turtle's. Dare I say, even more so than April.

CyberCubed

01-09-2020, 03:51 PM

I'm more curious what prompted the decision to change April into a red-head in the 2000's in most media as opposed to the 80's/90's when she always had black or brown hair.

In Mirage, the original cartoon, the movies, the Archie comic, etc, April always had either dark black or brown hair. She was pretty much a brunette.

Then 4kids gave her red hair for the first time in the 2k3 series, and it somehow stuck and became a staple of her for the next 20 years. 2007 CG movie April had red hair, then Nick 2012 April was a red-head and IDW April was also a red head. Even Megan Fox had her hair with a red tint in the Bay movies.

It's only Rise that made her black, but she'll probably be a white red head again in the next cartoon.

Warhorse

01-09-2020, 05:27 PM

Andrew NDB

01-09-2020, 05:38 PM

I thought the comics were in black and white?

Only the first volume. And there are many colorized versions of the early stuff.

Oh yeah, and there's this thing called covers.

d_osborn

01-09-2020, 07:43 PM

I'm more curious what prompted the decision to change April into a red-head in the 2000's in most media as opposed to the 80's/90's when she always had black or brown hair.

Is this a rhetorical question?

The comics honestly aren't my forté-- didn't Eastman confirm April in the early issues was loosely based on an African American girlfriend he had at the time?

Leo656

01-09-2020, 07:49 PM

She's alternately been based on pretty much anyone Kevin was f*cking at any given moment in time while he was working on the book, including one who was part-Asian, I believe. Other people know the whole story in greater detail than I do.

If only he'd followed conventional wisdom about chicks you're dating - Don't get their name tattooed on you, and don't stick them into your creative works - then there would be a lot less confusion about the whole thing.

So yeah, April was partly-based, at one time, on a black chick he was banging in that moment, but that was later on, not when she was created.

CyberCubed

01-09-2020, 08:06 PM

Is this a rhetorical question?

The comics honestly aren't my forté-- didn't Eastman confirm April in the early issues was loosely based on an African American girlfriend he had at the time?

She primarily had black and then brown hair for most of the 80's and 90's.

Then in the 2000's decade she was a red-head in every new incarnation:

2003: 4kids series
2007: 4th CG movie
2011: IDW comics
2012: Nick TMNT cartoon
2014: Megan Fox had some red tint to her hair

That's over the span of almost 20 years, the entire 2000's and 2010 decade besides Rise in 2018.

Whereas for the 20 years of 80's/90's she wasn't like that. In a way, red head April is now more mainstream than her old brown/black haired look.

Leo656

01-09-2020, 08:14 PM

Plus there just plain ain't enough Foxy Redhead characters in contemporary fiction. Not that there ever could be "enough", but regardless.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

01-09-2020, 08:26 PM

Plus there just plain ain't enough Foxy Redhead characters in contemporary fiction. Not that there ever could be "enough", but regardless.

I've found that there are very few attractive redheads.

Leo656

01-09-2020, 08:27 PM

Neve Campbell in "Wild Things" trumps absolutely anything you can say, bruh.

d_osborn

01-09-2020, 09:38 PM

I've found that there are very few attractive redheads.
I question your tastes.

She primarily had black and then brown hair for most of the 80's and 90's.

Are you color blind? April is known to be a redhead amongst the masses and casuals. Nitpick Pantone colors all day long, she was a primarily portrayed as a ginger in mainstream TMNT media. Fred Wolf, Playmates, Konami arcade side art, Nintendo sprites, Archie issues, Judith Hoag, theme park actresses, the list goes on. That is, unless you're referring solely to Mirage.

So yeah, April was partly-based, at one time, on a black chick he was banging in that moment, but that was later on, not when she was created.
And the world didn't end! :D It looks like it was issue 4, still very early on.

Eastman was pushing for Julie Strain (wife? girlfriend? FWB?) to be cast as April/Alt-dimension April in the TMNT 4 movie. I think she was even in Heavy Metal 2000. He obviously has an MO. Has April been blonde any recently?

Rosario Dawson is still my dream casting for a new movie or show. Period piece with a crazy crimped perm. ...or Christina Hendricks. Excuse me for a moment...

Warhorse

01-10-2020, 03:45 AM

I question your tastes.

Are you color blind? April is known to be a redhead amongst the masses and casuals. Nitpick Pantone colors all day long, she was a primarily portrayed as a ginger in mainstream TMNT media. Fred Wolf, Playmates, Konami arcade side art, Nintendo sprites, Archie issues, Judith Hoag, theme park actresses, the list goes on. That is, unless you're referring solely to Mirage.

And the world didn't end! :D It looks like it was issue 4, still very early on.

Eastman was pushing for Julie Strain (wife? girlfriend? FWB?) to be cast as April/Alt-dimension April in the TMNT 4 movie. I think she was even in Heavy Metal 2000. He obviously has an MO. Has April been blonde any recently?

Rosario Dawson is still my dream casting for a new movie or show. Period piece with a crazy crimped perm. ...or Christina Hendricks. Excuse me for a moment...

I would be open to that.

CyberCubed

01-10-2020, 05:09 AM

Are you color blind? April is known to be a redhead amongst the masses and casuals. Nitpick Pantone colors all day long, she was a primarily portrayed as a ginger in mainstream TMNT media. Fred Wolf, Playmates, Konami arcade side art, Nintendo sprites, Archie issues, Judith Hoag, theme park actresses, the list goes on. That is, unless you're referring solely to Mirage. .

She has brown hair in all of those, especially the original cartoon and Archie:

http://www1.pictures.zimbio.com/mp/mVYs2JSbwtJl.jpg

Also depending on the animation style her hair was shaded darker as it went on too

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-pUnBE9UieiM/W8WEfb_WweI/AAAAAAAAFj4/ni_umcRT_AE3fsORasYnxHibLbfhaGtqwCHMYCw/s1600/RCO003.jpg

This is brown hair. In Movie 2 and 3 especially April's hair was brown, and in the first movie her hair was definitely more of a brown hue than red head, although I'll give you Judith Hoag.

newfan

01-10-2020, 06:47 AM

I would argue more auburn, especially if you put her next to Irma in OT

d_osborn

01-10-2020, 08:01 AM

Yeah, I think you're color blind. The posted examples are clearly meant to represent April as a ginger. The Archie example uses bright red ink for crying out loud! :lol:

Turco has brown hair, for sure. All of the above-- ginger. Clearly.

CyberCubed

01-10-2020, 08:04 AM

I am not colorblind, April’s hair was also clearly colored brown as the series went on. In Turtles Forever her hair is brown too for that matter.

Go look at any clip or screen of 80’s April online.

d_osborn

01-10-2020, 08:29 AM

You do you, cubed. :lol:

CyberCubed

01-10-2020, 09:00 AM

April was always considered a brunette by fans in the OT, this is for 15-20 years.

newfan

01-10-2020, 09:06 AM

April was always considered a brunette by fans in the OT, this is for 15-20 years.

I'd suggest a poll if you were interested on consensus ... but I'm not sure it would warrant a whole thread...

IMJ

01-10-2020, 09:13 AM

I'd suggest a poll if you were interested on consensus ... but I'm not sure it would warrant a whole thread...

That would be a unique poll - "Have you traditionally thought of April as a Red Head or with brown hair based on FW TMNT?"

-Red
-Brown
-I like pizza

IndigoErth

01-10-2020, 10:32 AM

This is brown hair.
That is definitely red.

April was always considered a brunette by fans in the OT, this is for 15-20 years.
And actually, I saw her as red back then. It's just not an obvious, fake bottle #whatever red like in 2003.

Sorry, gonna pull the woman card here for a sec. Women usually have better color vision (look it up) and are typically better at differentiating between the subtle differences between similar colors. Such as a more subtle red vs brown. (Same reason my parents could never agree on one of the colors of our state license plate.)

Though I'm sure seeing the red in those images is not exclusive to female viewers/readers. That second one where she looks like Ariel the Little Mermaid could be used as a color vision test, because unless someone has particularly low color vision, come on... that's clearly a red, Ariel was red, and the likeness was probably on purpose.

If you want to get more specific, then it's auburn, a variation of red.

-Red
-Brown
-I like pizza
Now I'm confused about one of the major colors on my pizza.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

01-10-2020, 11:36 AM

Neve Campbell in "Wild Things" trumps absolutely anything you can say, bruh.

I question your tastes.

There are a few exceptions, but by and large, nope.

Warhorse

01-10-2020, 04:14 PM

She has brown hair in all of those, especially the original cartoon and Archie:

http://www1.pictures.zimbio.com/mp/mVYs2JSbwtJl.jpg

Also depending on the animation style her hair was shaded darker as it went on too

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-pUnBE9UieiM/W8WEfb_WweI/AAAAAAAAFj4/ni_umcRT_AE3fsORasYnxHibLbfhaGtqwCHMYCw/s1600/RCO003.jpg

This is brown hair. In Movie 2 and 3 especially April's hair was brown, and in the first movie her hair was definitely more of a brown hue than red head, although I'll give you Judith Hoag.

You're blind. She's red head in those pics.

April was always considered a brunette by fans in the OT, this is for 15-20 years.

Wrong again. Here is a link to Turtlepedia where it explicitly says the 80's toon April had auburn hair.
https://turtlepedia.fandom.com/wiki/April_O%27Neil_(1987_TV_series)

Vegita-San

01-10-2020, 04:19 PM

i'm color blind and even i can tell that's red.

Andrew NDB

01-10-2020, 04:20 PM

Yeah. Red af.

TommyT

01-10-2020, 11:36 PM

Plus there just plain ain't enough Foxy Redhead characters in contemporary fiction. Not that there ever could be "enough", but regardless.

I like you again. Not that you care, or that it matters, but yeah, this.

I enjoyed the New Dracula on Netflix, and to be honest, while it didn’t really matter, and wasn’t that big a deal, they chose, of all the cast, to switch out Lucy, the red head.

WTF is the deal with Hollywood and its hate for gingers? Ariel, April, Jimmy Olsen, Gordon, Wally West, its not just that they’re adding black actors, they are specifically targeting red haired characters to be removed.

Is it anti Irish? Anti Scottish? Whats the deal

TommyT

01-10-2020, 11:44 PM

There are a few exceptions, but by and large, nope.

You’re one of them Hollywood people with an axe to grind?

As a look, Gingers are pretty high on the sexy scale, right after blondes.
Brunettes, making up the majority of the planet,in numbers alone, will hold the most unattractive people.

Andrew NDB

01-11-2020, 01:12 AM

I enjoyed the New Dracula on Netflix

I actually started it today. It's a coincidence that I had to get away from it when I got to this point, but I got as far as the nuns or whatever questioning Jonathan Harker and them asking him, "So did Dracula have sexual intercourse with you?" and him getting super awkward.

Eh...

You’re one of them Hollywood people with an axe to grind?

As a look, Gingers are pretty high on the sexy scale, right after blondes.
Brunettes, making up the majority of the planet,in numbers alone, will hold the most unattractive people.

There's definitely ugly red heads. Also some gorgeous ones. However the "depreciation value" of them seems to be pretty poor... as in they look great until about 35 and then look out.

Just saying. And there's exceptions.

TommyT

01-12-2020, 08:39 PM

I actually started it today. It's a coincidence that I had to get away from it when I got to this point, but I got as far as the nuns or whatever questioning Jonathan Harker and them asking him, "So did Dracula have sexual intercourse with you?" and him getting super awkward.

Eh...

It takes a crazy detour in episode 3.

There's definitely ugly red heads. Also some gorgeous ones. However the "depreciation value" of them seems to be pretty poor... as in they look great until about 35 and then look out.

Just saying. And there's exceptions.

I'd like to see the science. Most people looks dog **** after 35.

Refractive Reflections

01-12-2020, 09:08 PM

I am a big OT fan, but the success of it has always been a double-edged sword on the TMNT franchise as a whole. On one hand the phenomenal commercial success of the cartoon has always been an incentive for production companies to pursue anything TMNT related afterward, but on the other, that same success had cemented itself in the public's minds that it is difficult to see it beyond children's entertainment. If the commercial success was more distributed throughout the franchise, as with other other superhero franchises, I believe the public would have a greater acceptance for more grown-up tones of TMNT.

The most notable exception is if people have been exposed to the original Mirage comic or 2K3 cartoon where they can appreciate it at its darker and more sobering tones, though the OT's success and mass public exposure is, and has been, an overcasting shadow obscuring them.

For me, it's been a pretty downhill experience after the first couple of seasons from the Nick cartoon as it seemed to lean more and more on the OT elements. And those Bayfilms, only sank the franchise further into children-themed entertainment. After that, I just haven't been interested in TMNT to really bother pay attention to it.