Sequels that were better or equally good

[newfan]

I did a search to check there wasn't something like this already and only found threads for worst sequels, so apologies if I am duplicating.

With sequels not always matching up to a successful first movie I was just thinking where some have been better than or at least fairly equal to the first movie. Like T2 for instance was very successful.

Anyone have some which they prefer?

[Allio]

Definitely Guyver 2: Dark Hero. Despite it being a made for video movie of a ****** live action film of a anime, it was pretty good.

[Voltron]

Godfather 1 and 2 are so good that they can be combined into the same film.
Empire Strikes Back is better than A New Hope. I personally feel the same way about Jedi, as well.
Aliens is a really, REALLY good follow up to Alien.
The Pink Panther series always delivered, too. I don't even know which is the first in the series, so the sequels must be good.

[AquaParade]

I grew up always hearing that sequels were never as good, but I found it confusing because I had the opposite experience. At least with the types of films I was watching.

The Dark Knight
Spider-Man 2
X-Men 2
Empire Strikes Back
Iron-Man 2 (jk)

[newfan]

Empire Strikes back had come to mind when I was creating the thread also, not just for me personally but I've noticed on-line with people.

Dark Knight for me was at least in league with Batman Begins, as in I equally enjoyed them at the theatre... I would still put the first ahead if I were ordering them though.

Oh, Star Trek, Wrath of Khan among other sequels were more entertaining to me.

[Wesley]

Batman Returns. Blows Batman 1989 out of the water, though may be too weird and Burtoneque for some people. Enjoying it depends on your mood imo. To be fair, ‘89 is a decent enough movie in its own right.

[TigerClaw]

I gotta go with Aliens. It was more an action movie then the 1st one. Which was more of a horror movie.

[drgon78]

Better then the original.
Aliens
Terminator 2
Toy Story 2 and 3
The Dark Knight
Guyver 2
Hot Shots Part Duex
Shrek 2
Back To The Future part 2
Indiana Jones and The Last Crusade
Star Trek 2, 4, 5, and 6
Gremlins 2

Equal to the original
Incredibles 2
F/X 2
Robocop 2
Wayne's World 2
Beverly Hills Cop 2
Crocodile Dundee 2
Home Alone 2

[Cure]

The Bourne Trilogy gets better as it goes. Shrek 2 is better than 1. Mission Impossible movies get better as they go, too (except for 2, 2 is trash garbage). Madagascar 1 is no bueno, 2 is OK, but 3 is reeeeeal good.

[MikeandRaph87]

Secret of The Ooze was just as good as the first film and I like it better.

Back To The Future II takes a new spin when it comes to a sequel and is just as good. The third one dropped off, but they were smart and ended it.

Home Alone 2: Lost In New York is nearly as good as the original and it never should have gone beyond this. Both are classics.

Empire Strikes Back is the best Star Wars film and I like Return of The Jedi almost as much as I do like Empire Strikes Back. If it was not for that dumb added in alien number and the gang getting captured by Jabba one at a time for no reason. I like both more than A New Hope.

Rocky II is equally good as Rocky and the series should have concluded after the fourth film, but when money is to be made only Back To The Future knows when to stop.

Spider-Man 2 is the best Spider-Man film easily and surpassed Spider-Man creatively and in general consensus. I also enjoy Spider-Man 3 more than the first even if it is a convoluted mess.

[MikeandRaph87]

Batman Returns. Blows Batman 1989 out of the water, though may be too weird and Burtoneque for some people. Enjoying it depends on your mood imo. To be fair, ‘89 is a decent enough movie in its own right.

Its funny, Batman Returns is the only Batman film I cannot watch again. Its so dark that its campy and it does not intend to be. From the portrayals (script not the actors just like B&R) may be its own things, but its too far off for me. It does the opposite that Batman & Robin do, and I prefer the characters used in Batman & Robin. Batman Forever is my favorite of the four easily. I hate the neon theme and Jim Carry's final battle suit, and wished the psychology of it such as when he says " I killed them." What do you mean? Please dig in. Its all a matter of opinion.:)

[Jester]

My favorite Indiana Jones movie is The Last Crusade. Sean Connery makes that movie. It's much better than Temple of Doom and probably on par with Raiders.

Back to the Future 2 is another personal favorite, if only because I love the future scenes. Others will probably say it's equal to the original.

Dark Knight is a great continuation of Batman Begins, and Ledger makes it great.

The Naked Gun Trilogy are all equally hilarious.

[AquaParade]

I just did my yearly watch of Spider-Man 2. It's one of my favorite movies ever. As time goes on, you can see just how superior it is to the first and third film. Raimi and the whole team were at the top of their game.

I love the current landscape of Marvel films, but there is a special ingredient here that the MCU isn't capturing.

[DarkFell]

Predator 2, Star Trek: First Contact, and Terminator 2. (Yes, I even liked the first movies too.) The Crow: City of Angels is a near-honorable mention.

It's been a long minute since I've rewatched any of the Highlander, Rocky, Indiana Jones, or Conan movies, but I might have them sitting around somewhere.

[IMJ]

Batman Returns is still a cherished Batman sequel.

[Powder]

Gremlins & almost anything Godzilla related.

[oldmanwinters]

Gremlins & almost anything Godzilla related.

Haha, I was about to say "What? Nobody mentioned Gremlins 2?"

What a weird, but amusing movie. I think the funniest part of the story is that it got made only after the studio agreed to let Dante do it however weird he wanted.

[Egon1982]

Secret of The Ooze was just as good as the first film and I like it better.

Back To The Future II takes a new spin when it comes to a sequel and is just as good. The third one dropped off, but they were smart and ended it.

Home Alone 2: Lost In New York is nearly as good as the original and it never should have gone beyond this. Both are classics.

Empire Strikes Back is the best Star Wars film and I like Return of The Jedi almost as much as I do like Empire Strikes Back. If it was not for that dumb added in alien number and the gang getting captured by Jabba one at a time for no reason. I like both more than A New Hope.

Rocky II is equally good as Rocky and the series should have concluded after the fourth film, but when money is to be made only Back To The Future knows when to stop.

Spider-Man 2 is the best Spider-Man film easily and surpassed Spider-Man creatively and in general consensus. I also enjoy Spider-Man 3 more than the first even if it is a convoluted mess.
Actually it was Rocky Balboa that concluded the Rocky story as it ignored the lousy 5th film.

[MrPliggins]

I would argue that Back to the Future II is the weakest of the trilogy while still being a really good movie. While 1 and 3 are pretty much self-contained stories, 2 suffers from being a "bridge" movie, the future scenes have not aged well, and while the technology was a breakthrough at the time, Michael J. Fox playing his entire family was pretty corny. Also it hurts your head trying to figure out how it all makes sense. As a kid, 3 was my least favorite, but I've grown to appreciate it more over time.
I agree about Spider-man 2. Although some of the dialogue has not aged well, it's still the most entertaining Spidey movie (I say this not having seen the latest one).

[AquaParade]

Speaking of Spider-Man, I found Far From Home to be weaker than Homecoming. It's going to take me some time to properly articulate why, but something about the film feels off to me. I love the summer vacation vibe, as well as some other elements of the film, but not enough to win me over.

Homecoming has flaws as well, but the plot was less flimsy to me and they nailed the "friendly neighborhood" vibe in a refreshing way. It's charming.

That's part of the reason I wasn't crying when Disney lost the Spider-Man license for a moment in time. Yes, I prefer Spider-Man to stay in the MCU, overall, but I still have the feeling that there are too many cooks in the kitchen. It's like they threw in some expert Marvel chefs to try and correct the Sony meals with tasty spices and sauces, but I still wish we could just get one or two great chefs in the kitchen, like Spider-Man 1 & 2 appeared to have. Those films, for whatever flaws they may have, feel cohesive and purposeful in their direction.

When it comes to MCU's Spider-Man 3, I'm optimistic but nervous. Can't wait to see what they come up with, but I need it to click with me more than FFH did.

[MikeandRaph87]

Actually it was Rocky Balboa that concluded the Rocky story as it ignored the lousy 5th film.

True and it extends to the spinoff Creed 2, which I believe is it. I just firmly believe that it should have concluded with 4.

[Voltron]

True and it extends to the spinoff Creed 2, which I believe is it. I just firmly believe that it should have concluded with 4.

What? You want to cancel the one where Rocky defeats communism single handed? The guy even runs around fixing **** in Russia. He outruns lousy Soviet cars. Mikhail Gorbachev gets a half chub from Rock's USDA Certified beefy bod. That movie is just wall-to-wall, 100% American Freedom porn. I watch the training seen to get hyped before a workout. It's a national treasure.

Then I ruin my core trying to do dragon flags. But that's my lower back's fault, not the film's.

[Andrew NDB]

Rocky II
Aliens
Star Trek II
Empire Strikes Back
Godfather II
Terminator 2
Die Hard 2
Spider-Man 2
The Dark Knight
The Gate 2
Magnum Force
Austin Powers: The Spy who Shagged Me
Crocodile Dundee II
Sicario 2
Doctor Sleep

Also, a lot of people would probably say X-Men 2... but not me. That was a bore and X1 was way "better."

And Rocky Balboa absolutely did not ignore Rocky V. It even had the "home team!" reference.

[MikeandRaph87]

What? You want to cancel the one where Rocky defeats communism single handed? The guy even runs around fixing **** in Russia. He outruns lousy Soviet cars. Mikhail Gorbachev gets a half chub from Rock's USDA Certified beefy bod. That movie is just wall-to-wall, 100% American Freedom porn. I watch the training seen to get hyped before a workout. It's a national treasure.

Then I ruin my core trying to do dragon flags. But that's my lower back's fault, not the film's.

No, Rocky IV (1985) versus Ivan Drago was the ultimate victory. So no don't cancel it out, end it with that! After that its train Tommy Gunn in V , prove he can defy age and brain damage in VI/Balboa and then Creed was pretty much honoring both his and Apollo's legacies. Its no one else left to kill either, Spider Rico even got killed off in Creed II unless Mary Ann Creed or Robert Jr. are offed.

Btw, I talked my U.S. History teacher into showing us Rocky IV as an example of Cold War propaganda at the end of the height of the rivalry when I saw it for the first time. I had seen up to III at that point. This was the mid oughts.

[IMJ]

Btw, I talked my U.S. History teacher into showing us Rocky IV as an example of Cold War propaganda at the end of the height of the rivalry when I saw it for the first time. I had seen up to III at that point. This was the mid oughts.

I remember seeing it in the theater as a kid. It was a helluva feel good movie by the time it ended. During the beginning when Apollo dies you were honestly left with that "oh my God what is happening" feeling. It was a different time.

There are some millenials would be shocked to hear that the audience cared though. Apollo is a black guy and you know... everyone was a racist before the millenials came along. :lol: I remember in school everyone saying "I can't believe they killed Apollo".

Rocky IV was a great flick. Rocky I and II are these personal stories of a fighter. Rocky III was about growth and becoming more than just a fighter against a villain, but Rocky IV was about friendship and national pride. Voltron would fail my politics class about this with his analysis, but you get a pass, MikeandRaph87. ;) :lol:

[MikeandRaph87]

I remember seeing it in the theater as a kid. It was a helluva feel good movie by the time it ended. During the beginning when Apollo dies you were honestly left with that "oh my God what is happening" feeling. It was a different time.

There are some millenials would be shocked to hear that the audience cared though. Apollo is a black guy and you know... everyone was a racist before the millenials came along. :lol: I remember in school everyone saying "I can't believe they killed Apollo".

Rocky IV was a great flick. Rocky I and II are these personal stories of a fighter. Rocky III was about growth and becoming more than just a fighter against a villain, but Rocky IV was about friendship and national pride. Voltron would fail my politics class about this with his analysis, but you get a pass, MikeandRaph87. ;) :lol:

I do teach history afterall. Mr. T's Clubber Lang is an obnoxious arrogant jerk and its okay to root against him because of who he presents himself as. Heck, Mr. T's mother walked out after Lang hit on Adrian in public. Apollo was arrogant because of self-pride and love of the sport he got through sheer will and effort not to mention his patriotism. So Clubber is evil black or not while Apollo is an awesome character villain, antihero, true American no matter his skin color. It disappoints me that Adonis is illegitimate. If they did not want to go with Apollo Jr. and make up a younger son, why not let Mary Ann be the biological mother? Its a slap in the face of Apollo's character. What I am saying is basically this, its not about race, but how a character is presented. Even in Rocky and Rocky II you cannot help but appreciate Apollo even if he is the opponent. Lang is the first of three legitimate jerks, the next two white. Mason Dixon, now that is a racist name! He was not a bad guy, he like Apollo was just a hungry competitor.

Also, its interesting the shock of Apollo's death brought because its in the movie trailer.:P So much for spoiler warnings going into the theater.
He could have stopped the fight...he could have saved his best friend's life. Now he cannot walk away!". As much as killing off Adrian seems unnecessary, I would bring Apollo back of all the characters even if it would have been " a disservice to cripple the character and not have him die honorably where he is at home".

[IMJ]

I do teach history afterall. Mr. T's Clubber Lang is an obnoxious arrogant jerk and its okay to root against him because of who he presents himself as. Heck, Mr. T's mother walked out after Lang hit on Adrian in public. Apollo was arrogant because of self-pride and love of the sport he got through sheer will and effort not to mention his patriotism. So Clubber is evil black or not while Apollo is an awesome character villain, antihero, true American no matter his skin color. It disappoints me that Adonis is illegitimate. If they did not want to go with Apollo Jr. and make up a younger son, why not let Mary Ann be the biological mother? Its a slap in the face of Apollo's character. What I am saying is basically this, its not about race, but how a character is presented. Even in Rocky and Rocky II you cannot help but appreciate Apollo even if he is the opponent. Lang is the first of three legitimate jerks, the next two white. Mason Dixon, now that is a racist name! He was not a bad guy, he like Apollo was just a hungry competitor.

Also, its interesting the shock of Apollo's death brought because its in the movie trailer.:P So much for spoiler warnings going into the theater.
He could have stopped the fight...he could have saved his best friend's life. Now he cannot walk away!". As much as killing off Adrian seems unnecessary, I would bring Apollo back of all the characters even if it would have been " a disservice to cripple the character and not have him die honorably where he is at home".

Yup... it was a different time. Back then there was this thought - are they really going to do it? It wasn't like today where "good guy" or main character deaths are the new norm.

And I agree completely with everything you've said here. Apollo was a compelling character in the first two films. But his role in three made him a hero - the race on the beach was iconic and their "unresolved" fight at the end left you feeling that these were two friends doing what they do rather than two competitors with an unresolved grudge.

I don't know if I've ever sat through 5 in one single viewing and I haven't seen the 6th one or either of the Creed flicks. At this point I just want another Expendables flick while everyone can still walk and fake it. :lol:

[MikeandRaph87]

Yup... it was a different time. Back then there was this thought - are they really going to do it? It wasn't like today where "good guy" or main character deaths are the new norm.

And I agree completely with everything you've said here. Apollo was a compelling character in the first two films. But his role in three made him a hero - the race on the beach was iconic and their "unresolved" fight at the end left you feeling that these were two friends doing what they do rather than two competitors with an unresolved grudge.

I don't know if I've ever sat through 5 in one single viewing and I haven't seen the 6th one or either of the Creed flicks. At this point I just want another Expendables flick while everyone can still walk and fake it. :lol:

"I don't know if I've ever sat through 5 in a one single viewing", that is me and Batman Returns. Honestly, like I said after Rocky IV its just Rocky taking a bow after another. He already ended the Cold War in the ring. What else is there to prove? Train this guy over your son, but then you realize your error and you train your son, who decides to be his own man. He trains Adonis because its what Apollo would have wanted.

Carl Weathers recently said that Rocky III is his favorite movie because it expands his character outside the ring. I know Apollo is the Patriot of The Ring so to speak, but I would have liked to have seen him knock Lang's block off. He did use Rocky in a way as him sticking it to Lang through Rocky. There is also the race thing you brought up. Sure Rocky is a Philadelphian, but a black man is the symbol of Patriotism as Apollo is symbolic of in each of the four films. A black man in a country founded by white men who were slave owners. That shows how far things have gone. Killing Apollo is like killing the spirit of the country so I commend the symbolism, but like Weathers am I not happy that he is gone. Now that I think of it, while it was thought Apollo being bludgeoned beyond healing would be crueler than killing him. Another Rocky entry could show Apollo's successful recovery to enter the ring. Hey Rocky had brain damage, but made it back for one more fight so why can't Apollo, the symbol of the American people not rise up for one more? Sorry for the rant.:D

Yes, I am hoping for one more and final Expendables that is in development hell. I liked seeing Stallone, Schwarzenegger, Norris, and Willis team up to take on Van Damm.

[Andrew NDB]

Rocky V has become retroactively a much better movie. When it was no longer "the last Rocky movie," (a hat that never sat right on it) it became a very necessary bridging point between Rocky IV and Rocky Balboa. Going from Rocky IV to Rocky Balboa is batsh*t.

Yes, I am hoping for one more and final Expendables that is in development hell. I liked seeing Stallone, Schwarzenegger, Norris, and Willis team up to take on Van Damm.

The Expendables movies just make me sad. So much potential... wasted. The first one took itself too seriously, the second one was shot as PG-13 then reshot to be barely R, then the third one wasn't even R at all. My interest in a 4th one was killed with the third.

[IMJ]

Carl Weathers recently said that Rocky III is his favorite movie because it expands his character outside the ring. I know Apollo is the Patriot of The Ring so to speak, but I would have liked to have seen him knock Lang's block off. He did use Rocky in a way as him sticking it to Lang through Rocky. There is also the race thing you brought up. Sure Rocky is a Philadelphian, but a black man is the symbol of Patriotism as Apollo is symbolic of in each of the four films. A black man in a country founded by white men who were slave owners. That shows how far things have gone. Killing Apollo is like killing the spirit of the country so I commend the symbolism, but like Weathers am I not happy that he is gone. Now that I think of it, while it was thought Apollo being bludgeoned beyond healing would be crueler than killing him. Another Rocky entry could show Apollo's successful recovery to enter the ring. Hey Rocky had brain damage, but made it back for one more fight so why can't Apollo, the symbol of the American people not rise up for one more? Sorry for the rant.

No apology needed - this was a good read. Makes me want to have some kind of Rocky marathon now.... -errr---- I mean watch all the movies, not go run like Rocky. :)

[Leo656]

There are no bad Rocky movies.

Still have not seen either "Creed" movie.

[MikeandRaph87]

No apology needed - this was a good read. Makes me want to have some kind of Rocky marathon now.... -errr---- I mean watch all the movies, not go run like Rocky. :)

https://images.app.goo.gl/oKqBtPjzXdJiVwDc9
This is one of the favorite clothes that I own.

[Andrew NDB]

No apology needed - this was a good read. Makes me want to have some kind of Rocky marathon now.... -errr---- I mean watch all the movies, not go run like Rocky. :)

Nothing gets me pumped up to work out like the Rocky movies.

There are no bad Rocky movies.

Still have not seen either "Creed" movie.

Why not? Missing out on some good stuff.

[Leo656]

Same reason for the 850 other DVDs and video games I have sitting around that I haven't gotten to yet; I got sh*t to do and I'm easily distracted. :lol:

I picked up Creed a while ago for $5, so I guess once I find Creed II for about the same I'll watch both back-to-back. I will say, though, that I'm somehow less-entranced by the notion of Rocky being a side character in someone else's series, even if it makes sense given the state of everyone's acting career presently.

Regardless, I'll get to it.
--------------------

Somewhat relevant to the topic at hand, I guess; there was a Karate Kid marathon on last night, so I watched all three originals back-to-back for the first time in a while (they skipped the Hillary Swank one, as most people do :lol:). I've seen each of them individually hundreds of times but I don't often do the whole series in one shot. Gotta say, Parts II and II catch a lot of hell but I sincerely think all three of them are great. First one's obviously the best but II and especially III catch a lot of flak that I don't think they deserve. Like even the director hates III, but I don't think he gives himself enough credit.

Part II took a brave chance in opening up the "world" of the characters and I think it's pretty heartfelt. I don't think anyone would have been too mad at them if they simply remade the first one as "Part II" - I mean, Karate Kid was essentially designed as "A Rocky series for kids", so I'm pretty sure that idea was at least passed around. Going to Okinawa and making the movie more about Miyagi instead was a pretty bold choice. I always liked it, but apparently most critics thought it was boring and pointless? I'm allowing for the fact that sequels were still sort of new in the 1980s, with most if not all of them being punished simply for existing, and critics painting them as "pointless" without really trying to meet the filmmakers halfway. It did the best business in the series, oddly enough, so it's strange that it's not more fondly remembered.

Now, Part III does feel sort of like a retread of the first one, but to me that's only on the surface. If anything it's more like a subversion of the first one. Kind of gives you some ideas about how Daniel might have turned out if he'd adopted someone like Kreese or Terry Silver as a mentor/father figure during the events of the first film, rather than Miyagi. Also, while some of the background actors do get a bit cornball at times (Jesus, "Snake", tone it down a little bit, huh? :lol:), there's lots and lots of great character stuff going on the whole time. Lots of really good stuff being done through body language and facial expressions, stuff like that. I think Terry Silver is one of the more underrated "Evil Mastermind" characters in movie history; I mean, it ultimately didn't work but his entire plan and its execution was really pretty flawless until the end. He just underestimated how strong the bond between Daniel and Miyagi was, and there's really no way he could have accounted for that kind of intangible.

All in all, while I wouldn't argue that III is "as good or better" than Part I, I think it complements it quite well just the same. It probably "works" the best as part of a marathon, though. But calling it a lazy retread of Part I, as I've even seen the director do, is seriously oversimplifying things.

No, Andrew, I haven't watched Cobra Kai yet. :trazz: I have the first two Seasons on disc, that's my plan for the weekend. Looking forward to it!

[Andrew NDB]

Oh, you're in for a treat with Cobra Kai. I guarantee you will love the hell out of it.

Before I watched it I, too, did a rewatching of all the KK movies. Including IV (which is just BAD, and it has absolutely nothing to do with Swank). III is the weakest of the trilogy as it's just a requel of the first one with less teeth and a girl that just exists to cocktease him. I hope we see that Cobra Kai creator back, though. Season 3 of CK will apparently be a return to Okinawa, so some big nods to KK 2 (maybe even some returning characters) should be expected.

[Leo656]

I only recently found out that the reason Jessica and Daniel's relationship in Part III was so weird was because they found out early on that actress Robyn Lively was only 16, and thus they had to scramble to tone down any "romance" between her character and 27-year old Ralph Macchio.

Meanwhile, less than a year later, she plays a total sexpot/Full Blown Whore in several episodes of Season Two of Twin Peaks. :lol: You can't make this stuff up.

Eh, I'unno, in some ways III is a bit "darker" than Part I. I see what you mean but I wouldn't call it "toothless". It's not like Johnny went around kicking Ali in the stomach or anything; Barnes and Co. seemingly had every intention of committing full-blown murder several times. Which I admit is a bit over-the-top in a movie that's ostensibly about a local kids' karate tournament, but hey, man, he REALLY wanted that 50% stake in Cobra Kai Dojos, I guess. :lol:

I first saw "The Next Karate Kid" on a date with my Junior High School "girlfriend". :lol: I think when Ralph f*cking Macchio of all people has better things to do, maybe your movie shouldn't exist, but that's just me. Swank herself was fine, and I confess that I still think she was ungodly hot in that. But man, just a terrible, terrible movie. A few fun/funny bits but it's just not good. Feels way, way too much like a Made-For-TV cash grab. An easy pick for any "Worst Sequels" list, to be sure.

Based on what little I've read about it, I expect that I will thoroughly enjoy Cobra Kai. I'm just sad about no Pat Morita, obviously. Although I've heard rumblings about Elizabeth Shue. That would be neat. Hopefully it continues to do well. Bring back Terry Silver! :trazz:

[Andrew NDB]

I only recently found out that the reason Jessica and Daniel's relationship in Part III was so weird was because they found out early on that actress Robyn Lively was only 16, and thus they had to scramble to tone down any "romance" between her character and 27-year old Ralph Macchio.

Interesting. I'd never read that. If they couldn't have gotten Shue back for III they really should have just had his girl from Japan come for a visit. He didn't need some kind of third love interest where he just gets friend-zoned off the bat. Wasn't it like her boyfriend was out of state or something?

Meanwhile, less than a year later, she plays a total sexpot/Full Blown Whore in several episodes of Season Two of Twin Peaks. :lol: You can't make this stuff up.

Really? I don't remember her in that. Yet there she is... 6 episodes, looks like.

Eh, I'unno, in some ways III is a bit "darker" than Part I. I see what you mean but I wouldn't call it "toothless". It's not like Johnny went around kicking Ali in the stomach or anything; Barnes and Co. seemingly had every intention of committing full-blown murder several times. Which I admit is a bit over-the-top in a movie that's ostensibly about a local kids' karate tournament, but hey, man, he REALLY wanted that 50% stake in Cobra Kai Dojos, I guess. :lol:

True... I never got the sense that Daniel's life was ever in danger with Johnny and his cronies. With Mike Barnes, yeah, he was a bit murderous. And the stomach blow to the new chick.

I first saw "The Next Karate Kid" on a date with my Junior High School "girlfriend". :lol: I think when Ralph f*cking Macchio of all people has better things to do, maybe your movie shouldn't exist, but that's just me. Swank herself was fine, and I confess that I still think she was ungodly hot in that. But man, just a terrible, terrible movie. A few fun/funny bits but it's just not good. Feels way, way too much like a Made-For-TV cash grab. An easy pick for any "Worst Sequels" list, to be sure.

Yeah, like a totally forgettable 90s kid actioner thing. One of many at the time. The only good stuff was the Miyagi material which actually is quite a bit.

Based on what little I've read about it, I expect that I will thoroughly enjoy Cobra Kai. I'm just sad about no Pat Morita, obviously.

They do a good job of still giving him a "presence" on the show. And clearly they were allowed to use his likeness on the show.

Although I've heard rumblings about Elizabeth Shue.

Seems guaranteed for season 3. They said her character's a doctor now so it's not too hard to imagine how she might pop in after watching season 2, and especially with what happens at the end there. Schedules probably lined up perfect, too... she wrapped her character on "The Boys" right about the exact time they started shooting CK season 3.

That would be neat. Hopefully it continues to do well. Bring back Terry Silver! :trazz:

Yeah! They need to. They've got Kreese walking around talking about, "I MADE Cobra Kai!" I'm like hollering, "NO! It was you and Silver!"

[Leo656]

YOU of all people forgot about Robyn Lively on Twin Peaks? :lol: WE WERE JUST TALKING ABOUT TWIN PEAKS, like... months ago. :trazz: She was that Sexy Southern Jezebel who was trying to seduce the old-ass mayor or whatever so she could swindle him, and his equally old-ass brother was all against it because he knew she was trying to sex the guy to death and get his money. I know you 'membah. But yeah, that's her!

I'll never forget the first time I watched it and I was like, "Dammit, that hot chick with the Southern accent is SO goddamn familiar... where the hell have I... OHMIGAWD it's the Karate Kid III chick!" :lol:

But yeah, it's odd to me that they had to cast her in a very "chaste" role in Karate Kid III due to being 16, but at 17 they could easily paint her as a Full Blown Whore complete with skin-tight outfits and Male Gaze-y camera angles and everything else that goes with it, for a much larger audience of people watching network TV, and nobody really thought it was odd. I mean, Bless 'Em for it, she was a goddamn smokeshow, but still. Funny how selective these things can be. Age 16: "She can kiss him on the cheek, but that's it." Age 17: "Let's have a scene where we tease that LITERALLY every main character is just waiting in line to bang her." :lol: Wacky sh*t.

I don't believe Elizabeth Shue was available for either II or III. I forget what the deal was with II, but by III she was doing "real" work and most likely had "outgrown" the series, so I don't think she'd have come back even if they'd asked. She's also said in recent interviews that she really didn't like how they wrote her out of Part II - wrecking Daniel's car and then dumping him for some football player at the PROM; Geez, have a heart, lady! :lol: - so I'm guessing there was still some lingering Bad Blood between her and the studio at the time. I'm sure it's all been sorted by now, though; she hasn't openly said that they've talked to her about doing Cobra Kai, but she's danced around it in a way that does imply that they've had some conversations. I won't be shocked if she turns up. That'd be great!

The girl who played Kumiko in Part II was very busy doing movies and TV shows in Japan at the time they made Part III, so I'm guessing that she wasn't available, either. Although she DID do some voice work for the Karate Kid cartoon show, which aired shortly before Part III was made. Neat!

One of the strangest, but greatest things about the entire Karate Kid franchise, to me, is that the studio originally did not want Pat Morita at all. Only the director and one single producer had any faith in him; everyone else completely refused the idea that he could handle a dramatic role, because he'd been doing comedy for decades. He auditioned FIVE times! And they still said no, until the one producer strong-armed the studio and they finally let him do it, albeit grudgingly. We know the rest; Home Run, guy's a national treasure, it's his all-time greatest role, even in the "bad" movies he's great in them... but it almost wasn't so. How crazy is that?

I mean, say what one will about Part III, but that scene where Daniel screams at Miyagi and slams the door in his face, and Miyagi just stands there, slack-jawed? OOF. He did so much wonderful, expressive acting even when he wasn't saying anything. What a gem that guy was.

[Andrew NDB]

YOU of all people forgot about Robyn Lively on Twin Peaks? :lol: WE WERE JUST TALKING ABOUT TWIN PEAKS, like... months ago. :trazz: She was that Sexy Southern Jezebel who was trying to seduce the old-ass mayor or whatever so she could swindle him, and his equally old-ass brother was all against it because he knew she was trying to sex the guy to death and get his money. I know you 'membah. But yeah, that's her!

Now I remember. I actually didn't even watch Twin Peaks until about a year and a half ago... but BEFORE rewatching all the Karate Kid movies. It didn't hit me.

But yeah, it's odd to me that they had to cast her in a very "chaste" role in Karate Kid III due to being 16, but at 17 they could easily paint her as a Full Blown Whore complete with skin-tight outfits and Male Gaze-y camera angles and everything else that goes with it, for a much larger audience of people watching network TV, and nobody really thought it was odd. I mean, Bless 'Em for it, she was a goddamn smokeshow, but still. Funny how selective these things can be. Age 16: "She can kiss him on the cheek, but that's it." Age 17: "Let's have a scene where we tease that LITERALLY every main character is just waiting in line to bang her." :lol: Wacky sh*t.

Speaks more to the restraint of the Karate Kid people than the Twin Peaks people.

she hasn't openly said that they've talked to her about doing Cobra Kai, but she's danced around it in a way that does imply that they've had some conversations. I won't be shocked if she turns up. That'd be great!

Zabka has said she was approached about it, directly:

https://popculture.com/streaming/2019/06/07/cobra-kai-william-zabka-elisabeth-shue-karate-kid-return-season-3-rumors/

The girl who played Kumiko in Part II was very busy doing movies and TV shows in Japan at the time they made Part III, so I'm guessing that she wasn't available, either. Although she DID do some voice work for the Karate Kid cartoon show, which aired shortly before Part III was made. Neat!

Huh.

One of the strangest, but greatest things about the entire Karate Kid franchise, to me, is that the studio originally did not want Pat Morita at all. Only the director and one single producer had any faith in him; everyone else completely refused the idea that he could handle a dramatic role, because he'd been doing comedy for decades. He auditioned FIVE times! And they still said no, until the one producer strong-armed the studio and they finally let him do it, albeit grudgingly. We know the rest; Home Run, guy's a national treasure, it's his all-time greatest role, even in the "bad" movies he's great in them... but it almost wasn't so. How crazy is that?

That I have read/seen about. Very cool.

I mean, say what one will about Part III, but that scene where Daniel screams at Miyagi and slams the door in his face, and Miyagi just stands there, slack-jawed? OOF. He did so much wonderful, expressive acting even when he wasn't saying anything. What a gem that guy was.

Very emotive.

Obviously the most memorable scene with him is his drunken breakdown in the first one. Man, that got dark. And was powerful. Unexpected.

Another thing. The Mike Barnes actor. Before season 2 came out he actually said he was going to be in it... but then he wasn't.

kPaBrd1F6tY

But that he's been reached out to means they DO have plans for him. Maybe in 3.

[Leo656]

I'd like to see Barnes return. Apparently the actor has had a long battle with alcoholism; one has to wonder if that has anything to do with why he hasn't shown up just yet. He pretty much only ever did soap operas, but like, a lot of 'em. You gotta think it's only a matter of time, though.

Oh yeah, that scene with Miyagi in Part I is epic. But that's an easy one. Since III and even "Next..." aren't up to that film's standard, some people forget that Morita himself was hitting Home Runs no matter what material they gave him to work with in the later films. And that's impressive.

I first watched Twin Peaks in 2016, I think, and immediately felt like I'd wasted my entire life beforehand by NOT watching Twin Peaks. Not a day goes by where I don't think about or reference it in some way.

You don't win many friends that way, BUT, the ones you DO find are in an exclusive and Elite class of people. :tgrin: For example, if I greet someone with, "________, today you remind me of a small, Mexican Chee-wah-wah," and they don't get it, I know I'm talking to a putz. I don't immediately dismiss them but I DO factor it in for later, just in case.

[Shark_Blade]

Home Alone 2
Ip Man 4
Mad Max: Fury Road
The Purge 2
Batman Returns
Ocean’s 8
Toy Story 2, Toy Story 4
Smurfs: The Lost Village
Bambi 2
Shin Godzilla
Happy Deathday 2
Unfriended: Dark Web
Enter the dragon

X1 > X2 tbh

[turtle1237]

I do teach history afterall. Mr. T's Clubber Lang is an obnoxious arrogant jerk and its okay to root against him because of who he presents himself as. Heck, Mr. T's mother walked out after Lang hit on Adrian in public. Apollo was arrogant because of self-pride and love of the sport he got through sheer will and effort not to mention his patriotism. So Clubber is evil black or not while Apollo is an awesome character villain, antihero, true American no matter his skin color. It disappoints me that Adonis is illegitimate. If they did not want to go with Apollo Jr. and make up a younger son, why not let Mary Ann be the biological mother? Its a slap in the face of Apollo's character. What I am saying is basically this, its not about race, but how a character is presented. Even in Rocky and Rocky II you cannot help but appreciate Apollo even if he is the opponent. Lang is the first of three legitimate jerks, the next two white. Mason Dixon, now that is a racist name! He was not a bad guy, he like Apollo was just a hungry competitor.

Also, its interesting the shock of Apollo's death brought because its in the movie trailer.:P So much for spoiler warnings going into the theater.
He could have stopped the fight...he could have saved his best friend's life. Now he cannot walk away!". As much as killing off Adrian seems unnecessary, I would bring Apollo back of all the characters even if it would have been " a disservice to cripple the character and not have him die honorably where he is at home".

I never felt Mason Dixon was a racist name. Sly is a BOXING FAN, and knows a large part of history of the sport. He name His expendables hero after boxing legend Barney Ross, and Masion Dixon is a take on Bantamweight legend George Dixon. who rule in the 1890's Or so I like to think.

[Redeemer]

can't believe no one has mention Avengers Infinity War or Thor Ragnorok. :lol:

[oldmanwinters]

I love how this thread sidetracked into a "Which was the best?" analysis of both the Rocky and Karate Kid franchises for one whole page's worth of posts. God bless John G. Avildsen.

[ranger_scout]

The Bourne Trilogy, the Toy Story sequels, and both The Dark Knight and The Dark Knight Rises. Some of the Harry Potter sequels are also better than the first.

[Wildcat]

Child’s Play 2
Tremors 2 Aftershocks
Meet the Fockers
Vacations: Christmas, Vegas

Some sequels were great because the first ones were as simple as the idea could get. Probably done on purpose for sequels. Which is perfectly fine. People should not treat originals as untouchable or definitive though...just like first chapters.

[Leo656]

I love how this thread sidetracked into a "Which was the best?" analysis of both the Rocky and Karate Kid franchises for one whole page's worth of posts. God bless John G. Avildsen.

Yep. :lol:
--------------------------

I strongly disagree about Dark Knight Rises being better than either Batman Begins or DK. I think DKR is fairly obviously the weakest of the trilogy. I won't argue with anyone who points out why DK is better than BB, those are valid things to discuss, but despite loving it upon its release, DKR is really kind of a mess. I mean even aside from the story, it's plagued by sloppy editing and technical problems that the first two movies avoided. BB and DK were very tight movies; DKR was made in a panicked rush to make a release date, and I think it shows through in the final product. It has it's moments but I think it's a mile behind either BB or DK.

I frankly don't watch it much anymore. The first two tend to get better for me the more I see them and I find more things to appreciate about them, but the exact opposite is true with DKR. The more I see it, the more pronounced its many flaws are.
----------------

Semi-related, and I know I'll get crucified for this, but I think it's strange how many people prefer Batman Returns over Batman '89. Now, upfront let me say, as a purist, both of those movies can be annoying for various reasons, but I can still really appreciate and enjoy Batman '89 and can pretty much watch it anytime. I prefer Batman Begins by a mile, but '89 is still a very good movie for a lot of reasons. But I recently re-watched Returns, and again, LOVED it as a kid but I can barely get through it, now.

I think a lot of it has to do with a person's opinions about Tim Burton, because Returns is about 10% a "Batman movie" and 90% a "Tim Burton movie". Batman characters are IN it, technically, but not really, as they're all misrepresented pretty egregiously. But comic book purist arguments aside, the whole movie has tons of plot holes big enough to drive a giant rubber duckie through. Again, '89 was tight, pretty much a "perfect" movie, and I feel like pretty much anyone can be entertained by it regardless of how they feel about Burton's style. "Returns" was ALL Burton, and if you're like me, and his style for you is "It's okay, once in a while", then the sequel is a gigantic exercise in Style Over Substance. It's really just a bunch of "zany" visuals, very loosely-connected by a very thin plot. Huge chunks of it simply don't make any sense, although the visuals and characters are definitely memorable. It just feels like a big step backwards from the first film, to me, Bigger but not Better. It's "more Burton-y" than the first, but that's about it.

I mean, I like Burton well enough, but if a person asked me to describe him as either a genius or a one-trick pony, I always lean towards the latter. "Everyone is a weirdo, black and white prison stripes everywhere, plot and characters don't matter because everything is so darn KOOKY!" It gets old, sometimes. My wife's a devotee, so I get it. I mean, I will never turn off "Beetlejuice", if it's on I'm watching it. Same for Batman '89. BR, to me, simply feels like WB gave Burton a ton of money to masturbate all over a Batman poster, rather than "A Batman movie".

I kinda feel like that guy peaked with "Beetlejuice" and has been huffing his own farts ever since, but that's me. I do enjoy "Ed Wood", though, I don't think he gets enough credit for that one. Probably because it's a more intimate picture that doesn't lean so heavily on his usual "gimmicks".

Back to the Batman sequels, I simply can't sit through the Schumacher ones anymore. Not that I could ever sit through "Batman and Robin" in the first place; I've definitely seen the whole thing but never in one sitting. I've ultimately come to blame WB more than Joel for the whole deal but either way, I just don't have time for those movies. Like I can occasionally watch "Returns" for a laugh even though I don't think much of it aside from its stylistic qualities, but those two just raise my blood pressure. :lol: I'd rather watch Young Guns for the thousandth time, or something.
-------------------

That reminds me: Young Guns II is easily as good, if not superior, to the first. Although the "proper" way to experience them is as one long movie, anyway. :)

[Utrommaniac]

The Rescuers Down Under is my go-to for better sequel. Like "blows it out of the water" better.

[Leo656]

Getting back to Karate Kid, I just got halfway through Season 1 of Cobra Kai - relevant to the topic as it's a sequel series - and with NO hyperbole whatsoever, I can't believe this is even real. I never even really knew I wanted it and it's like the best thing I've seen in years.

We just got done with the episode where Miguel kicks the sh*t out of all the bullies in the cafeteria, and I don't know if the show stays this good all the way through, but so far it's excellent. What amazes me is, every single thing about it COULD, in theory, be corny and terrible if it weren't all executed and built up exactly as it is. But the execution is so terrific that by the time you get to 50-year old Ralph Macchio putting on his old karate outfit, it feels completely authentic and earned, and not at all like an SNL skit taken too far.

I'll be honest, I was looking forward to finally watching it, but in reading about it, some of the elements sounded like they could have been done poorly and come off as corny, on paper, but the reality isn't like that at all. And it's way more funny that I expected, and the humor also feels as authentic as the rest of it. That surprised me.

You can tell five minutes into the first episode that it's a total labor of love, and so far each episode's been great. I hope it stays hovering around the same level of quality, because it's been a great surprise, so far.

[MikeandRaph87]

You feel as strongly about Returns that I do about Forever. I'm not into Tim Burton, but I am into Batman. The reason a lighter tone happened was because of a push against the dark for dark sake, Returns was not really good for an era where the Turtles had their weapons taken away (Mike twice), Lord Zedd went form being badass scary to a campy husband of the underling he despised, and Spider-Man dodging laser blast( heck the longest censorship in cartoons that also was seen in TMNT '87). I love Batman Forever, but I also admit it had its faults. It was held back on the psychological analysis that Nolan was able to do. Its also en example of my being drawn to character sets, it features Dick Grayson, my favorite DC hero and The Riddler, my favorite DC villain!

If you like Returns, then you probably LOVE Gotham, I like to call it Got Ham, because of its so dark its campy similar to Returns.

[Leo656]

I can't get past the oversaturated neon aesthetic and the terrible acting in "Forever". I don't like the tone either but I'm not sure that's even the worst part of it. I hate Jim Carrey on a good day, but him dialed up to 12 isn't anything I would ever really enjoy. And seeing a fine actor like Tommy Lee Jones completely wasted by being misdirected to such a degree... He's not a ham actor, but they made him play it that way and it's just not good. He could've done a great job. I was super-excited to see Robin, Riddler, and especially Two-Face myself, but man, I can't stand how they chose to execute those ideas. There's a lot of material that had potential but making it into a cartoon was a mistake. And I strongly feel that everyone except possibly Tommy Lee Jones was miscast, he was simply misdirected. Kilmer was just not a great Batman, he felt like he had no agency or authority, and I hated how "stiff" Kilmer played him as either Batman or Bruce. Chris O'Donnell was incredibly punchable, and I really like to root for Dick Grayson, not want to punch him. I can forgive a lot sometimes if the movie's got a great cast and they perform well - like, the visuals and performance are just about ALL I like about Batman Returns - but if I don't like the cast, I generally don't like the movie. And I really didn't care for that cast.

I liked it when I saw it in the theater, but I've hated it ever since. Nowhere near "Batman and Robin", but I just really don't like it. I really don't like anything about it. The Robin costume, actually. They did a great job on that. Oh, and I own the soundtrack, soundtrack is pretty good. And they made some pretty cool action figures for it. I just personally don't enjoy anything about the movie itself. I have definitely given it many chances, and I know I'll see it again. I'm just not a fan of it. BUT, I can tolerate it. B&R, I can't abide at all.

[oldmanwinters]

Kilmer was just not a great Batman, he felt like he had no agency or authority, and I hated how "stiff" Kilmer played him as either Batman or Bruce.

Fun fact, on the director's commentary track for Batman Forever Special Edition DVD, Schumacher calmly declares Kilmer the best of all Batman actors.

[Andrew NDB]

Getting back to Karate Kid, I just got halfway through Season 1 of Cobra Kai - relevant to the topic as it's a sequel series - and with NO hyperbole whatsoever, I can't believe this is even real. I never even really knew I wanted it and it's like the best thing I've seen in years.

That was exactly what I said in the Cobra Kai thread when I first saw it. The best thing I never knew I wanted. All episodes are golden... I don't recall any duds in either season.

[Leo656]

Just finished Season 1. It's perfect.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Out of the Shadows is better than TMNT 2014.