How seriously should the 1987 tmnt cartoon be taken, if at all?

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Discuss.

I believe the 1987 turtles cartoon deserves to be taken seriously as an action cartoon because while those turtles are often in a campy and comedic universe, they are often worried about not making it out alive and take many threats pretty seriously (many of said threats are legitimately dangerous to either them or the world as a whole).

Plus, the self awareness of the turtles never goes to a point where they know they are going to win in the end regardless of whatever happens.

The closest example of the show exhibiting extreme self awareness in regards to the turtles always winning in the end that I can think of is the use of "Woo Wee" in the season 6 opener, "Rock around the Block", in which the turtles simply defeat Shredder and Krang by doing nothing and letting Bebop and Rocksteady foil them through their own stupidity.

Even in that example though, I think it could be argued that the turtles simply decided not to waste any more energy because there was nothing else they could do , and as far as they were concerned, the turtles still didn't know whether they were actually going to win that time.

[CyberCubed]

The show is basically like Futurama or Star Trek for kids, it's both a serious series and not serious at the same time.

[IndigoErth]

Pretty much agree with what you said.

Is the show goofy, sure, but it's done in the way that's genuine... like they're typically taking it seriously the larger majority of the time, even if some aspects of a situation are comedic while not usually doing it to be comedic. If that makes any sense. Hard to explain. Like a more natural type of comedy vs the rather forced comedy of a lot of cartoons today.

edit: Like these Turtles could throw a pie that was on hand at someone as a defense, not to be funny themselves, but the cartoon still expects that to be a funny thing.

So... Turtles serious, but cartoon not?


The show is basically like Futurama or Star Trek for kids, it's both a serious series and not serious at the same time.
Pretty good comparison, I agree.

[lonewarrior20]

I think it should be taken as serious as shredder the musical with Vernon Fenwick as oroku saki singing springtime for shredder and the foot clan with robot foot soldiers as the back up dancers with a giant cardboard cutout of the technodrome as the backdrop.

what I mean is this could have been an episode and that's what made it enjoyable to me and it knows it didn't have to be taken to seriously other than every once in a while having a moral about honor or fighting for whats right in a world where their rejected for being different.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Just ordinary action–comedy genre that was popular at the time

[ABrown]

The original cartoon is definitely not meant to be taken too seriously. I mean, maybe the red sky seasons are. But the bulk of the series (seasons 1-7) is best to just watch and enjoy. If you take the show for what it was, and don't over analyze it, it can still be a very entertaining cartoon, even all these years later. In my opinion, more entertaining than anything Nickelodeon has done with the franchise.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Pretty much agree with what you said.

Is the show goofy, sure, but it's done in the way that's genuine... like they're typically taking it seriously the larger majority of the time, even if some aspects of a situation are comedic while not usually doing it to be comedic. If that makes any sense. Hard to explain. Like a more natural type of comedy vs the rather forced comedy of a lot of cartoons today.

edit: Like these Turtles could throw a pie that was on hand at someone as a defense, not to be funny themselves, but the cartoon still expects that to be a funny thing.

So... Turtles serious, but cartoon not?


Pretty good comparison, I agree.


What she said!

[LeotheLateBloomer]

As serious as the 1966 Batman TV series.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

But the bulk of the series (seasons 1-7) is best to just watch and enjoy.

You can enjoy the first 7 seven seasons while taking them seriously at the same time.

Agree with your other points though.

[Voltron]

It depends on the episode, I guess. There are some where people suffer really gruesome fates, like Mutagen Man or Baxter Stockman. Those are kind of nightmare fuel.

[Wildcat]

I totally agree with OP and Indigoerth. The storylines are serious and the characters took them seriously.

There’s humor thrown in because well some stuff is funny and it’s a cartoon, but it was in no way the dumbed down nonsense that some make it out to be.

Now people pick out certain things for jokes but that’s not at all what the cartoon was like.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

The years when the Original Cartoon peaked in popularity (1989–1991), the number of parents complaining over too much violence also peaked. So that's why Seasons 3–5 (totally spanning over 108 episodes) mostly gave us comedy scenes instead, and the violence was toned down.

However, writers, producers and voice actors took some advantage of it, and instead built up a great dynamic in the characters interacting with each others. (Turtle Lair, Channel 6 and Technodrome)

[IMJ]

Just ordinary action–comedy genre that was popular at the time

This sentence pretty much defines it.

I think it makes so much sense to those of us who where there - "the 80's vibe". It was a lifestyle that permeated everything back then. There's a.... thing... about the 80's, the generation, the pop culture, the vibe that might never happen again. Yet I also think it's also hard for those of us that were there to understand that those who were not there need to sort of discuss it and chew it up a bit to understand it.

I think it's like that for all things, though.

[CyberCubed]

It’s actually pretty funny how many episodes deal with explosions, bombs, death traps, various elements of world destruction, etc. but since the show was written as a comedy for kids it kind of doesn’t feel as violent as the situations would really be.

[IMJ]

It’s actually pretty funny how many episodes deal with explosions, bombs, death traps, various elements of world destruction, etc. but since the show was written as a comedy for kids it kind of doesn’t feel as violent as the situations would really be.

The themes you mention reminded me of GI Joe ARAH - some of the themes in that show were nutso for kids. Yet every single time a plane blew up people were parachuting to safety even amidst full scale air and ground wars around them! :lol: Until that one time that Serpentor threw a snake through Duke's heart. There was that.

[IndigoErth]

Just wanted to add that as goofy as it is and as harmless as it is as a cartoon, there's plenty of moments that can be taken seriously in the eps alongside the comedic stuff.

One of the greatest, and maybe "darkest" (or just "dim"?), in my mind is when Leo lopped off the heads of Herman the Horrible.

Just finished up a slow re-watch of the series recently, and that moment still stood out and always kind of surprises me. At that point in the ep it may already be known that Herman is just a robot and is already laying broken apart on the ground, but that actually comes across as a pretty brutal move for this cartoon since the two heads of Herman are still speaking to people like a living thing. And here comes Leo just "Nope!" and cuts them clean off.

Killing robots may be common for the Turtles as a way of getting to "kill" things that aren't people and get past the censors, but this is probably one of the only cases where the robot does not actually seem robotic and is portrayed like a living thing. Pushed the envelope a little bit for its time.


It’s actually pretty funny how many episodes deal with explosions, bombs, death traps, various elements of world destruction, etc. but since the show was written as a comedy for kids it kind of doesn’t feel as violent as the situations would really be.
I've always loved how easily things can blow up, including things that should not even happen to.

One of my fave weird explosion gifs I have of this series is exploding... toast. Two piece impact and erupt into a ball of fire midair.

I mean technically that makes it a violent attack against Raph, the target of the now "alive" toaster, but it's still funny because toast.

edit: Ohh, yay, found it.

https://i.imgur.com/UHcmoSN.gif

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

The themes you mention reminded me of GI Joe ARAH - some of the themes in that show were nutso for kids. Yet every single time a plane blew up people were parachuting to safety even amidst full scale air and ground wars around them! :lol: Until that one time that Serpentor threw a snake through Duke's heart. There was that.

A similair cartoon was Bucky O'Hare (I've seen all 13 episodes, and really enjoyed watching it). However, each time a spacecraft was hit, those inside left in their escape pods.

[neatoman]

Should the show be taken seriously in any capacity? No, not really. The tone is very silly with lots of fourth wall breaks and insane premises. I can see why a small child might end up taking the show somewhat seriously, given the limited experience they have with fiction. An adult however really shouldn't, even if they can stomach the poor quality.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Just wanted to add that as goofy as it is and as harmless as it is as a cartoon, there's plenty of moments that can be taken seriously in the eps alongside the comedic stuff.

One of the greatest, and maybe "darkest" (or just "dim"?), in my mind is when Leo lopped off the heads of Herman the Horrible.

Just finished up a slow re-watch of the series recently, and that moment still stood out and always kind of surprises me. At that point in the ep it may already be known that Herman is just a robot and is already laying broken apart on the ground, but that actually comes across as a pretty brutal move for this cartoon since the two heads of Herman are still speaking to people like a living thing. And here comes Leo just "Nope!" and cuts them clean off.

Killing robots may be common for the Turtles as a way of getting to "kill" things that aren't people and get past the censors, but this is probably one of the only cases where the robot does not actually seem robotic and is portrayed like a living thing. Pushed the envelope a little bit for its time.


That was one of the standout violent moments in the show, and you've got to love how casual Leonardo is about it.

"And its about to get worse!"

It's moments like these which prove that the 1987 turtles would not hesitate to use their weapons on living creatures during the less censored seasons of the show.

Another similar moment that stands out to me, is in the very first episode when the turtles fight the Foot Soldiers for the very first time on the rooftop.

One of the Foot Soldiers charges for Raphael, who ends up stabbing it in the chest.

Keep in mind, the 1987 turtles didn't know that the Foot Soldiers were robots, just like with Leonardo not knowing about Herman the Horrible being a robot.

Even in the most slapstick episodes, the stakes themselves were always taken seriously by the turtles.

So it doesn't matter if they were Stabbing or pushing carboard boxes, the threats were always real in the eyes of the turtles.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Keep in mind, the 1987 turtles didn't know that the Foot Soldiers were robots, just like with Leonardo not knowing about Herman the Horrible being a robot.

Also, killing an extraterrestrial is considered more OK than killing an Earth Human. In Splinter No More they tricked the extraterrestrial monster into killing itself. And in Divide and Conquer, the turtles probably indirectly killed Dregg by throwing him from Earth through the portal.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Also, killing an extraterrestrial is considered more OK than killing an Earth Human. In Splinter No More they tricked the extraterrestrial monster into killing itself. And in Divide and Conquer, the turtles probably indirectly killed Dregg by throwing him from Earth through the portal.

True, those are all good examples.

Also, Leonardo stabbing the plant monster in "It Came from Beneath the Sewers".

Its these kind of examples which make me kind of dissapointed that we didn't get more of the 1987 turtles being violent in the Wanted Bebop and Rocksteady special from the Nickelodeon crossover.

I mean yes, that crossover got their personalities down perfectly, and the portrayal of the turtles not using their weapons was accurate to certain parts of the show (the most slapstickiest of seasons 3 and 4), but it was a missed pportunity to push some boundaries.

I mean, we get this buildup that the 1987 turtles are being trained to use their weapons again, and all that buildup just leads to them slicing up Foot Soldiers which was already a common staple from the show.

How awesome would it be if say, the 1987 turtles got a few cuts and stabs on the Nickelodeon Bebop and Rocksteady as a payoff for the training?

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

How awesome would it be if say, the 1987 turtles got a few cuts and stabs on the Nickelodeon Bebop and Rocksteady as a payoff for the training?

Fred Wolf Raphael could at least have kicked Nickelodeon Rocksteady in his head, knocking him unconsciousn. Remember Nickelodeon Rocksteady is a fearsome war volunteer, who fought in the civil war in Yugoslavia during the 1990's, and the wars in Iraq and Democratic Republic of Congo before he joined the Foot Clan in 2013.

That would also pay tribute to Future Raphael punching Adolf Hitler in the Archie Comics.

[Coola Yagami]

That's the main thing the crossovers get wrong. Despite the silly was of the show, the turtles and the characters in it take things seriously and there are usually stakes involved. The crossovers usually make it sound like the 80s crew never take anything seriously despite them basically stopping shredder from taking over the world every other day.

[shredder orokusaki]

COMPARED to rise it is 1000 times better. I was the main villian and was a big threat to the world and turtles!

[Turtle Soup]

I take the first 5 episodes (season 1) fairly seriously.

[Cyndaquilfan123]

To me it's just like comparing Batman 66 and any other Batman incarnation. You watch one when you are feeling in that kinda mood, and one of the others any other time.

[CyberCubed]

The fate of the world was at stake in almost every episode, so very seriously.

[neatoman]

To me it's just like comparing Batman 66 and any other Batman incarnation. You watch one when you are feeling in that kinda mood, and one of the others any other time.

I'd compare it more to Super Friends personally. FW TMNT's influence on the brand is kinda like how people casually referred to the JLA as Super Friends or assumed Aquaman was lame for decades, simply because they were more familiar with the cartoon than the comics. And sure, Super Friends does have some influence to this day, like how its original characters keeps popping up or the LoD HQ. But the actual show is so lame and boring, it hardly ever influences the modern incarnations beyond superficial details because nobody in charge of making them can stand watching that crap.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

I'd compare it more to Super Friends personally. FW TMNT's influence on the brand is kinda like how people casually referred to the JLA as Super Friends or assumed Aquaman was lame for decades, simply because they were more familiar with the cartoon than the comics. And sure, Super Friends does have some influence to this day, like how its original characters keeps popping up or the LoD HQ. But the actual show is so lame and boring, it hardly ever influences the modern incarnations beyond superficial details because nobody in charge of making them can stand watching that crap.

You know,
All this talk about the Super Friends show makes me intensely curious (I've never seen it before).

I might check it out and who's knows, maybe I'll absolutely fall in love with it like I did with the 1987 turtles cartoon?

[CyberCubed]

You know,
All this talk about the Super Friends show makes me intensely curious (I've never seen it before).

I might check it out and who's knows, maybe I'll absolutely fall in love with it like I did with the 1987 turtles cartoon?

No, Superfriends is very bad. All the characters are one-dimensional, Superman and Batman have the same personality, and there's no action since a character wasn't allowed to throw a punch. The very last seasons of it which aired in the late 80's are the only decent ones.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

No, Superfriends is very bad. All the characters are one-dimensional, Superman and Batman have the same personality, and there's no action since a character wasn't allowed to throw a punch. The very last seasons of it which aired in the late 80's are the only decent ones.

A quick look at Wikipedia shows that Super friends was 109 episodes long, but the first 3 seasons have 44 minutes long episodes which sounds a bit much.

I might just watch the first couple of season 4 episodes (since its only 22 minutes long each).

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

You know,
All this talk about the Super Friends show makes me intensely curious (I've never seen it before).

I might check it out and who's knows, maybe I'll absolutely fall in love with it like I did with the 1987 turtles cartoon?

I think you already know it, but there is also a Justice League cartoon from the early 2000's (if you're interested). It originally aired over Cartoon Network.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justice_League_(TV_series)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justice_League_Unlimited

[PApagreg]

About as seriously as the Rise show.

[IMJ]

You know,
All this talk about the Super Friends show makes me intensely curious (I've never seen it before).

I might check it out and who's knows, maybe I'll absolutely fall in love with it like I did with the 1987 turtles cartoon?

It's entertaining enough - I loved it when I was really, really young. Like many cartoons that we have fond memories of, they can be hard to get through now. I'd be curious if you could embrace them now.....

I think you already know it, but there is also a Justice League cartoon from the early 2000's (if you're interested). It originally aired over Cartoon Network.

Now that show was terrific. A buddy of mine lent me his series DVD sets about ten years ago and that's when I first sat through the Timmverse JLA. It was really entertaining - it drew a great balance of dramatic superhero action and entertaining "upbeat" or "comedy" moments without ever going too far.

[pferreira]

My response is below:

Is the show goofy, sure, but it's done in the way that's genuine... like they're typically taking it seriously the larger majority of the time, even if some aspects of a situation are comedic while not usually doing it to be comedic. If that makes any sense. Hard to explain. Like a more natural type of comedy vs the rather forced comedy of a lot of cartoons today.What you're talking about is being self-referential without being blantly obvious about if as every TV show and movie does today. TV and movies today are mostly written in extremes. Either something is deadly overly serious or if the writers know they need a comedic moment they try too hard to make something overly comedic. There is no balance or middle ground so it (at least for me) always fails.

As serious as the 1966 Batman TV series.Isn't it ironic that back in the 80s TMNT was criticised for being too violent when today the FW series is the equivalent of the 60's Batman series. :-?

That's the main thing the crossovers get wrong. Despite the silly was of the show, the turtles and the characters in it take things seriously and there are usually stakes involved. The crossovers usually make it sound like the 80s crew never take anything seriously despite them basically stopping shredder from taking over the world every other day.You're talking about verisimilitude: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verisimilitude

It doesn't matter how far fetched or ridiculous something is as long as it makes the viewer relates to the characters and situations. The viewer can then forgive silly plots. It's like the first four Superman movies and how they end up being more watchable and likeable compared to the more recent ones. We don't laugh at the TMNT, we laugh WITH them. It's not about age but being able to understand properly formed characters you can relate to. This way of writing unfortunately is completely lacking in media today. All those people who say you can't appreciate drama in the series after growing up are up their own backside.

[Wesley]

Depends on the episode, but most of the series in general isn’t supposed to be taken seriously imo. The show is best watched as a comedy. I take season 1, 2, 6, 7 and red sky slightly seriously, though (kinda in the same way I watch Buffy season 1).

[pferreira]

Depends on the episode, but most of the series in general isn’t supposed to be taken seriously imo. The show is best watched as a comedy. I take season 1, 2, 6, 7 and red sky slightly seriously, though (kinda in the same way I watch Buffy season 1).Yikes if you think this series is just a comedy that would sum up most 80's cartoons then. :-?

[Wesley]

Yikes if you think this series is just a comedy that would sum up most 80's cartoons then. :-?

Well, it is what it is.

[neatoman]

I don't even know what to qualify this show as if it's not a comedy. The characters break the fourth wall all the time, they constantly spew snark and a lot (if not most) of the plots are intentionally farcical. It seems to me like most of the lines uttered are either jokes or exposition.

[Leo656]

Action/Adventure/Comedy, I guess?

I mean, the protagonists literally dispatched the bad guys by whipping pizza at them on more than one occasion, and many if not most of the climactic fight scenes were accompanied by numerous piss-taking zingers that would make any Marvel movie blush. They once KO'ed Bebop and Rocksteady by making them smell their own feet, for crissakes.

There are lots of action and adventure elements for certain, but I agree that the show was predominantly comedic in nature. Whereas, say, Biker Mice From Mars, which I'd never seen at all until recently, would be more like an action/adventure show with occasional comedic elements, while TMNT would be a comedic show with action/adventure elements. If that makes any sense. Like you said, huge chunks of the dialog were either a pun, a zinger, or expository information. Not all, but very much of it.

And for those who might not "get it", none of this is an "attack", merely an observation/statement of fact. This shouldn't need to be explicitly stated, but apparently it does.

[turtle1237]

Action/Adventure/Comedy, I guess?

I mean, the protagonists literally dispatched the bad guys by whipping pizza at them on more than one occasion, and many if not most of the climactic fight scenes were accompanied by numerous piss-taking zingers that would make any Marvel movie blush. They once KO'ed Bebop and Rocksteady by making them smell their own feet, for crissakes.

There are lots of action and adventure elements for certain, but I agree that the show was predominantly comedic in nature. Whereas, say, Biker Mice From Mars, which I'd never seen at all until recently, would be more like an action/adventure show with occasional comedic elements, while TMNT would be a comedic show with action/adventure elements. If that makes any sense. Like you said, huge chunks of the dialog were either a pun, a zinger, or expository information. Not all, but very much of it.

And for those who might not "get it", none of this is an "attack", merely an observation/statement of fact. This shouldn't need to be explicitly stated, but apparently it does.

I am sure if you didn't wash your fight in years, you would be koed also.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

About as seriously as the Rise show.

Since you are a huge fan of Rise, I'm gonna take that as a compliment :D

Speaking of Rise, I'm about 20 episodes into the show, and I thought it was interesting how the turtles in that show are constantly making jokes just like the 1987 toon but they too have faced against some pretty impressive stakes so far and come out on top, so the threat level always seems real for the most part.

Like the 1987 series, Rise is a cartoon that I am taking seriously, but not without laughing a lot along the way.

I am sure if you didn't wash your feet in years, you would be koed also.

As Donatello said, that was some real hazardous work.

[Wesley]

Even in the most slapstick episodes, the stakes themselves were always taken seriously by the turtles.

So it doesn't matter if they were Stabbing or pushing carboard boxes, the threats were always real in the eyes of the turtles.

Agreed. I noticed this myself when I started rewatching season 2 recently. That’s one thing Turtles Forever got wrong. The show is still best treated as a comedy, though.

[pferreira]

I don't even know what to qualify this show as if it's not a comedy. The characters break the fourth wall all the time, they constantly spew snark and a lot (if not most) of the plots are intentionally farcical. It seems to me like most of the lines uttered are either jokes or exposition.The Fred Wolf series is not a comedy series. It has threat every episode. Threat doesn't not equal comedy. I mean it's kind of obvious to anybody no?

The show is an action adventure show with comedic moments. It is not an outright comedy. That would be like calling The Real Ghostbusters, The Racoons or DuckTales a comedy.

[neatoman]

The Fred Wolf series is not a comedy series. It has threat every episode. Threat doesn't not equal comedy. I mean it's kind of obvious to anybody no?

The show is an action adventure show with comedic moments. It is not an outright comedy. That would be like calling The Real Ghostbusters, The Racoons or DuckTales a comedy.

No, it is not obvious. If anything that's an extremely flimsy disclaimer. A threat is one of the most common sources of motivation or conflict in story telling. And Comedy isn't always lighthearted, it can be extremely dark and disturbing. But comedy doesn't have to be dark to feature a threat or serious danger either, I'm just pointing that tone isn't what qualifies a comedy either.

Ghostbusters features a threat from a god of destruction, still a comedy.
Life of Brian features a main character in danger of getting excecuted by the Romans (which happens), still a comedy.
Spaceballs could have ended with an entire planet suffocating to death, still a comedy.
Shaun of the Dead has the characters constantly in danger of being eaten alive, still a comedy.
Who Framed Roger Rabbit has the title character almost melted into a vat of acid, still a comedy.

I could go on and on. The point is, having stakes does not disqualify something from being a comedy.

[Hamato Yoshi]

Batman 66 = TMNT 87

Although i suspect Batman is silliet , at least in s3 with Batgirl

[D-ray]

I've never took the 1987 too seriously, due to how goofy it is most of the times.
This obliviously doesn't mean that the whole cartoon is a burp.
Some scenes and episodes can actually be seen on a serious way, but this happens only when you are fully grown.
Also, even if the scene is "serious" for your point of you, the characters doesn't seem aware of it, so you just don't care at some point. Atleast, this was for me.

[pferreira]

No, it is not obvious. If anything that's an extremely flimsy disclaimer. A threat is one of the most common sources of motivation or conflict in story telling. And Comedy isn't always lighthearted, it can be extremely dark and disturbing. But comedy doesn't have to be dark to feature a threat or serious danger either, I'm just pointing that tone isn't what qualifies a comedy either.Some of your examples make little sense while the other examples are actual examples of comedy:

Life of Brian, Spaceballs and Shaun of the Dead are comedies. They're more specifically parodies. They do have danger yet we aren't supposed to take seriously what is going on, i,e. we're watching for the jokes therefore they are comedies.

Who Framed Roger Rabbit is NOT a comedy. Not sure how you came to that conclusion. It contains comedic scenes but it's meant to be taken seriously. It's a film noir fantasy not a comedy.

Ghostbusters is a tricky one. It was marketed and is still known today as a comedy, not helped by the fact people look at those involved with the production are comedy based. However Ghostbusters while containing a lot of humour is played straight unlike the first three examples. It also has a lot of other genres in it which is where the confusion lies: action adventure, horror and sci-fi fantasy. Willing to bet it's been shown on channels with each of those specific genres.

I don't see the FW series as a comedy. It was never about pratfalls, it had danger we were supposed to take seriously. Call TMNT a comedy and you might as well call any kids cartoon series with a little bit of humour a comedy series.

[Wesley]

I don't see the FW series as a comedy. It was never about pratfalls, it had danger we were supposed to take seriously. Call TMNT a comedy and you might as well call any kids cartoon series with a little bit of humour a comedy series.

I agree the FW series had danger, but it still wasn’t meant to be taken too seriously due to the amount of humor such as pizza jokes and sarcasm. I’m rewatching season 2 at the moment and it’s pretty good, though I’m only taking it slightly seriously.

[neatoman]

Some of your examples make little sense while the other examples are actual examples of comedy:

Life of Brian, Spaceballs and Shaun of the Dead are comedies. They're more specifically parodies. They do have danger yet we aren't supposed to take seriously what is going on, i,e. we're watching for the jokes therefore they are comedies.

Who Framed Roger Rabbit is NOT a comedy. Not sure how you came to that conclusion. It contains comedic scenes but it's meant to be taken seriously. It's a film noir fantasy not a comedy.

Ghostbusters is a tricky one. It was marketed and is still known today as a comedy, not helped by the fact people look at those involved with the production are comedy based. However Ghostbusters while containing a lot of humour is played straight unlike the first three examples. It also has a lot of other genres in it which is where the confusion lies: action adventure, horror and sci-fi fantasy. Willing to bet it's been shown on channels with each of those specific genres.

I don't see the FW series as a comedy. It was never about pratfalls, it had danger we were supposed to take seriously. Call TMNT a comedy and you might as well call any kids cartoon series with a little bit of humour a comedy series.

You are aware that a movie can fit into multiple genres and that it can be multiple things, aren't you? Wheter or not a movie is classified as a comedy does not mean it can't also be a drama, action or horror. Sometimes it can be all four at the same time. If it's well made enough it can do all elements successfully.

If this concept is so far beyond your grasp that the threat of Gozer overrides the fact that you watched a movie that is built around the joke of college professors being reduced to glorified pest control, them dripping in con man clichés, has a long scene of them wrecking a hotel out of inexperience to then demand massive fees for said destruction, and lines in almost every scene meant to be a joke... I don't know what to tell you. Or did you think lines like the one about mold collection were meant to be taken seriously?

And back to the topic of FW TMNT, I don't get how exactly you can ignore that episode after episode is built on gag premises and still say you're meant to mostly meant to take this **** seriously. Here's a selective but not exactly short list of premises that are clearly meant to be jokes:

Alien Beatniks drive around in a flying Cadillac
Parodies of the Giger Alien spawn from meat ball pizzas
Shredder creates hick frogs by accident and thinks he can beat his enemies with their help
The klutz becomes a giant and therefore even clumsier
Shredder builds a machine that attracts antiques
A child dresses up in bad cosplay in an attempt to emulate the turtles
Leonardo hits his head and thinks he's a character in The Three Musketeers
Shredder programs a trash collecting robot to bring him random turtles until he gets the right ones, flooding his base with turtles
An alien tourist loses his camera that can trap people
All but one turtle takes a love potion and falls for the frumpy wallflower
Casey, depicted as a clueless nutjob, fights off evil household products
Shredder runs a fake pizzeria and employs Mike
A MXYZPTLK knock-off shows up
A dream in which Shredder causes NYC to become a dystopia due to poor handling of paper work
Raph literally does stand-up
Mike pretends to be a toy
Shredder's mom shows up and bosses him around
Turtles babysit a baby beatnik
A crazy collector puts April in his collection
Leo is turned into a slacker
Two of the turtles are turned into babies
Amateur superhero contest
Clumsy wallflower has to pretend to be Don because someone thought he was a girl
A scientist fakes an alien invasion to cover his "evil" plan to make bigger vegetables
Hillbillies steal the turtle van
Klutz mistakenly belives herself to have superpowers
Three of the turtles are turned into babies, it's different because there's one more this time
A guy becomes the phantom of the opera because he got paint on his face
Don thinks he's Batman and tricks the triceratons into leaving earth with animatronics
A ray that turns cute things into monsters


Between this and the constant jokes and absurd resolutions... How can anyone watch this show and go "yeah, this is mostly serious"? It boggles the mind...

[FredWolfLeonardo]

And back to the topic of FW TMNT, I don't get how exactly you can ignore that episode after episode is built on gag premises and still say you're meant to mostly meant to take this **** seriously. Here's a selective but not exactly short list of premises that are clearly meant to be jokes:

Between this and the constant jokes and absurd resolutions... How can anyone watch this show and go "yeah, this is mostly serious"? It boggles the mind...

I think you're half-right here.

Yes, the show absolutely had many bat-s*it crazy premises, the characters made jokes all the time in the Blue-Sky era and there was a lot of self-awareness going on.

On the other hand though, there were stakes involved in pretty much every episode which could be lethal to the characters from a story perspective, and the turtles took their ninja crime fighting seriously, even if said crime fighting involved pushing cardboard boxes and chandeliers throughout the middle seasons.

So I wouldn't say "this is mostly serious" about the cartoon, but I would say that FW tmnt deserves to be taken seriously due to the consistent threat level, despite comedy being one of the show's main genres throughout a majority of its run.

Like you said earlier, stakes don't disqualify the show from being a comedy, but I would argue that its also true vice versa (Being a comedy doesn't invalidate the stakes involved).

For the sake of comparison, here is another tmnt version that is a pure comedy and nothing else, due to having no stakes unlike the cartoon its based on:

9F4Y76dh3PM

[pferreira]

I agree the FW series had danger, but it still wasn’t meant to be taken too seriously due to the amount of humor such as pizza jokes and sarcasm. I’m rewatching season 2 at the moment and it’s pretty good, though I’m only taking it slightly seriously.There's obvious comfort in the fact that the heroes will win but the danger is supposed to be taken seriously.

You are aware that a movie can fit into multiple genres and that it can be multiple things, aren't you? Wheter or not a movie is classified as a comedy does not mean it can't also be a drama, action or horror. Sometimes it can be all four at the same time. If it's well made enough it can do all elements successfully.As I said Ghostbusters is a fairly unique example as it crosses many genres which is why I disagree it's just a comedy.

Between this and the constant jokes and absurd resolutions... How can anyone watch this show and go "yeah, this is mostly serious"? It boggles the mind...All your examples could be used in other cartoons I watched as a child and those were serious cartoons. Again this doesn't make them comedic cartoons. There's a difference between a series being lighthearted and a comedy as you so badly fail to grasp. Transformers from the 80s had moments you list however it's meant to be taken seriously. I don't really look at an episode of DuckTales or The Real Ghostbusters or The Racoons and go "this is a hilarious comedy". It contains comedic moments but it's supposed to be taken seriously. Not sure why this is difficult for you to understand? :ohwell:

On the other hand though, there were stakes involved in pretty much every episode which could be lethal to the characters from a story perspective, and the turtles took their ninja crime fighting seriously, even if said crime fighting involved pushing cardboard boxes and chandeliers throughout the middle seasons.Okay you get it more than neatoman. The point is comedy within something doesn't automatically make it a comedy.

[Wesley]

@neotoman and FredWolfLeonardo: You’re both kinda right imo. Some dialogue/scenes are serious, but I mostly laugh at the absurdity of it all. For example, New York’s Shiniest is a hard episode to watch with a straight face.

@pferreira: It’s hard to take the danger seriously when the Turtles find themselves in absurd situations (eg. facing off against a hose in The Mean Machines).

[ABrown]

Batman 66 = TMNT 87

I've never underwood when people say this. I've always said that version of Batman is equivalent to The Next Mutation series. To me, this is the version that I've always considered to be the closest Batman to the original TMNT cartoon.

[LeotheLateBloomer]

I've never underwood when people say this. I've always said that version of Batman is equivalent to The Next Mutation series. To me, this is the version that I've always considered to be the closest Batman to the original TMNT cartoon.

Truth be told, The Adventures of Batman and The New Adventures of Batman are essentially animated versions of the 66 TV show.

[neatoman]

I've never underwood when people say this. I've always said that version of Batman is equivalent to The Next Mutation series. To me, this is the version that I've always considered to be the closest Batman to the original TMNT cartoon.

Actually I'd say the closest thing to being the Fred Wolf of Batman is Super Friends. ALthough that is more of a JLA/general DC thing, if we want more Batman specific, then I guess the Adam West show does fit or possibly one of those earlier Batman cartoons before Timm.

As for the Next Mutation of Batman... Harder one, possibly the Schumacher movies. Alternatives might be Birds of Prey (the show, not the movie), Gotham, Batwoman, the film serials, Dawn of Justice or Beware.

The Schumacher movies are still the top candidate for me consider how well known they are. Though BoP and Beware do have that "canned after one season" bit. I think DoJ, Gotham and Batwoman have their fans but to me they're garbage.

Anyway to truly find the Next Mutation of Batman is, I think these are some guidelines:

It has to well known, being trash isn't enough.
It can't be a comic, DC's insistance on publishing two or more monthly books featuring Batman means bad Batman comics will keep popping up.
There ought to be some level of quality expected, if for some reason it was pretty much doomed to suck due to some factor, then it's disqualified.


So then under these guidelines, delightful garbage like this direct to video toy commercial is disqualified:
DiIdTYBV9_I

[DarkFell]

I doubt that the series even took itself seriously, and I reckon that held some appeal for a few folks in this forum.

[pferreira]

@pferreira: It’s hard to take the danger seriously when the Turtles find themselves in absurd situations (eg. facing off against a hose in The Mean Machines).Wasn't it made clear in the episode that any instrument controlled by that machine could kill them somehow? I like that episode. April unplugging the computer was a copout but it was kind of clever.

So then under these guidelines, delightful garbage like this direct to video toy commercial is disqualified:How is that video you linked any worse than most Batman? Firstly I wasn't laughing at the video, secondly all the elements you'd associate with Batman were there. The characters behaved like the characters so much seeing the issue there?

I doubt that the series even took itself seriously, and I reckon that held some appeal for a few folks in this forum.If it didn't take itself seriously at all why would people bother watching it?

[Wesley]

Wasn't it made clear in the episode that any instrument controlled by that machine could kill them somehow? I like that episode. April unplugging the computer was a copout but it was kind of clever.


Mean Machines is actually one of my favourite episodes. The resolution didn’t bother me tbh. You have a point about the machine, but that scene still came off to me as silly on my recent rewatch.

[neatoman]

How is that video you linked any worse than most Batman? Firstly I wasn't laughing at the video, secondly all the elements you'd associate with Batman were there. The characters behaved like the characters so much seeing the issue there?


To be fair, that video does not encapsulate all that is wrong with that particular movie, I sort of get why you don't get what's wrong with it. It's honestly hard to explain the problems without sounding like a raving madman. It's called Batman Unlimited: Monster Mayhem, in case you're interested.

Then again, I'm not sure how you can watch video of Batman riding a robot dinosaur and think "Yes, this is perfectly normal for Batman, I could totally see this ******** happen in any other version of Batman. This is what I expect of Batman!".

[DarkFell]

I doubt that the series even took itself seriously, and I reckon that held some appeal for a few folks in this forum.

If it didn't take itself seriously at all why would people bother watching it?
..For the funzies? There are people that will watch the 60's Batman series for the campy fun of it. Heck, I even watch MST3K and that show doesn't take itself seriously either.

[Leo656]

Yeah, that was a very weak argument. Reminded me of a movie I saw a long time ago, I don't remember the plot because I was skipping around, but this one scene always stuck out in my memory. There's a spot where kind of a simple guy was debating with an intellectual type, and a pro wrestling match comes on the TV, and they start arguing about whether it's stupid or not, then whether it's fake or not, and the simpler guy goes, "Well if it was so stupid and fake then why would millions of people watch it?"

And it's like... people watch wrestling because it's silly and "fake". That's like 75% of its appeal to most people. Same goes for the FW TMNT cartoon. People like it for exactly what it unapologetically is. I mean look at how fast things went south when the show DID try and become "serious" near the end of its run, and it becomes very apparent that just like with wrestling, the inherent "goofiness" of the TMNT cartoon was a huge reason why anyone even cared about it. It gave the audience that loved that kind of aesthetic exactly what they wanted.

And that's fine, it is what it is and it only rarely tried to be anything else, and when it did try to be anything else it didn't entirely work (although whether the "blame" for that lies on the audience or the showrunners is an entirely separate conversation worth having). It's not really to my taste anymore but it succeeded very well at what it tried to do, which was be a comedic and satirical type show with action elements interspersed throughout. I don't know how anyone could ever say it was all that "serious", when outside of the first five episodes and then the last two seasons, it went out of its way to be farcical many times and succeeded very well in that.

Like yes, it had "action" as a way to create conflicts and move the plot forward, and its own set of internal logic and everything, and that's fine. But in some episodes almost every scene is full of gags or at least puns. That's why I would call it a "comedic action show", not an action show with comedy in it. I think it's just simply too often weighted towards the comedic elements for anyone to dismiss or diminish them, or to say that it wasn't "predominantly" a comedic show. It was, predominantly, a comedic show. And that's fine.

[Wesley]

What Leo656 said. The show also didn’t really have continuity as such, as the writers had no problem ignoring or changing its history whenever they saw fit. One of the reasons I still kinda like the FW toon and Adventures of Sonic the Hedgehog is because they’re campy fun shows.

[DarkFell]

Like I said, it was a show that hardly took itself seriously. The plots were silly, they were made that way on purpose, and there are still some folks that will watch the OT for the fun of it.

For those of us that the OT no longer do justice for, there are other forms of TMNT media. To each their own.

[pferreira]

To be fair, that video does not encapsulate all that is wrong with that particular movie, I sort of get why you don't get what's wrong with it. It's honestly hard to explain the problems without sounding like a raving madman. It's called Batman Unlimited: Monster Mayhem, in case you're interested.I get you. If you used a clip of Batman surfing from the 60's series or used a clip from a Scooby-Doo crossover it would make more sense I guess. :)

Heck, I even watch MST3K and that show doesn't take itself seriously either.But...that's a comedy... :o

It was, predominantly, a comedic show. And that's fine.We'll have to agree to strongly disagree on that one. The same rule could be applied to other animated shows at the time. I always consider them action adventure with comedy. I'm not watching to expect comedic plots even though the show had some like most cartoons back then.

[Leo656]

If I ever get around to actually watching the entire series again, I'll have to do so with a clipboard in hand. I absolutely will mark down every single pun, joke, play-on-words, satirical reference and instance of slapstick, then calculate the mean average of jokes per 23-minute episode, just to settle this once and for all.

Don't underestimate my commitment to pointless and thankless tasks in the interest of saying "I Told You So." :lol:

I also procrastinate as a rule, so don't expect it anytime soon. But it's coming! :trazz: With any luck it'll be out before that Obi-Wan show that's never happening.

EDIT: Wait, nevermind, why should I do it when Cubed can do it? Yeah, f*ck it, let him do it. I got sh*t to do. Like lots and lots of nothing at all. And that requires a lot of my attention.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

If I ever get around to actually watching the entire series again, I'll have to do so with a clipboard in hand. I absolutely will mark down every single pun, joke, play-on-words, satirical reference and instance of slapstick, then calculate the mean average of jokes per 23-minute episode, just to settle this once and for all.

Don't underestimate my commitment to pointless and thankless tasks in the interest of saying "I Told You So." :lol:


I think you could do a similar thing with the Richard Lester cut of Superman 2 and find out all sorts of campy stuff like the cellophane S, the slapstick, bumbling Clark, crazy and non sensical powers etc.

That doesn't negate the threat level and stakes of the movie though, and I would argue that the same goes for the FW tmnt cartoon.

Something can have jokes scattered all around it yet be taken seriously at the same time, and that in my opinion is one of the beautiful things about the FW tmnt cartoon (and the entire tmnt multiverse to an extent) which got many people hooked in the first place.

A question for you and anybody else who doesn't take the FW cartoon seriously, do you watch the FW cartoon in the same mood and sensibility with which you would watch something like Looney Tunes and Tom and Jerry? (No hate on either of those franchises, I love them both, but have a different way of approaching them unlike tmnt).

[Leo656]

I think you could do a similar thing with the Richard Lester cut of Superman 2 and find out all sorts of campy stuff like the cellophane S, the slapstick, bumbling Clark, crazy and non sensical powers etc.

That doesn't negate the threat level and stakes of the movie though, and I would argue that the same goes for the FW tmnt cartoon.

Something can have jokes scattered all around it yet be taken seriously at the same time, and that in my opinion is one of the beautiful things about the FW tmnt cartoon (and the entire tmnt multiverse to an extent) which got many people hooked in the first place.

A question for you and anybody else who doesn't take the FW cartoon seriously, do you watch the FW cartoon in the same mood and sensibility with which you would watch something like Looney Tunes and Tom and Jerry? (No hate on either of those franchises, I love them both, but have a different way of approaching them unlike tmnt).

Sorry bruh, but there ain't enough weed in the house to get me to sit through the Lester Cut of Superman II. I grew up loving it, but around age 13 I realized that holy sh*t, remove Terrance Stamp chewing the scenery and you're left with an absolutely terrible movie. F*ck that pink f*cking bear.

I do LOVE Terrence Stamp, though, which is pretty much the only reason I'd ever watch either cut of II again. It's not even my favorite role of his. John Tunstall 4 Life! :lol:

And I'd argue that to some degree it DOES lessen the stakes, because for my money, after the previous hour and a half of "shenanigans", I no longer care WHAT these people do, I just want the movie to end because you've already succeeded in convincing me that it's a farce. If the people making it think it's stupid, and are so hellbent on convincing me of it, then I'm not gonna argue with them. Although the Donner Cut succeeds slightly better at making me care. It's still badly-written dreck and completely, fundamentally misunderstands the characters and their motivations, and has about as much in common with the comic books as my ass does, but hey, it is what it is. I know I'm never gonna convince anyone who loves it that it's a bad movie. But it is. :trazz: "Charming, but lousy" is how I'd sum it up if I had to put it in one sentence. So... yeah, not a great example to use on me, Chief. :lol:

Like when that kid says after the fight scene, "Awwwww, man... Superman din't even do nuffin'!" And I'm like "Wow, this kid's IN the movie and he's also seeing the same things I see. He just summed up the ENTIRE movie!" :lol: "Shoot comments that aren't supposed to be Shoot Comments" for the win. :lol:

- Before anyone asks, there's a very high probability that I've seen it more in a lifetime than anyone who's gonna try and change my mind. I absolutely LOVED the film and recorded it off TV at least a dozen times... until I reached the age of reason. Now it's strictly Nostalgia Viewing and not a very enjoyable experience. Mileage will vary, but objectivity helps. So don't @ me!
-----------------------------------

Jokes and snark aside, and directly to your question... nah, I can't really say it's like that, either. The FW TMNT show definitely isn't in the same vein as Tom N Jerry or Looney Tunes, and I wouldn't be in that mindset to actually sit and watch an episode. Just because it's comedic doesn't make it full-blown farcical, although a few moments certainly were. For me, I just sort of drifted away from that show a long time ago, partly from seeing all the episodes to the point of boredom, and also because my sense of humor changed significantly over time.

I honestly don't re-watch the FW show often, but not specifically because I don't like it, or don't see any value in it. I mean I went to the trouble of hunting down each of the DVD sets as they were released, at great cost and hassle, so if I wasn't a fan that'd be dumb. And I guess it's dumb that after all that they mostly sit on the shelf.

The mindset I generally have to be to watch the FW show, would generally be, "I wanna remember what it felt like to be 8, for an hour or two." And it's a feeling I'm fine with revisiting but it's not a place I'd choose to live in.

Hope that's a satisfactory answer. I'm having a hard time putting my thoughts into words at the moment.

[DarkFell]

I doubt that the series even took itself seriously, and I reckon that held some appeal for a few folks in this forum.

If it didn't take itself seriously at all why would people bother watching it?
..For the funzies? There are people that will watch the 60's Batman series for the campy fun of it. Heck, I even watch MST3K and that show doesn't take itself seriously either.[/quote]
But MST3K...that's a comedy. :o
Okay.. plan for Plan B.
https://i5.walmartimages.com/asr/e5032e85-b731-48e0-97c6-ebacc1a35bb4_1.d4231f5ac99d144c9bfd6b534214f9c1.jp eg?odnHeight=450&odnWidth=450&odnBg=ffffff
Who's with me?

[Leo656]

Why not? It's early yet, I can squeeze in another 87 trips to the pisser tonight. :lol:

Mostly a Guinness guy but anyone who says no to a Pabst just doesn't understand this whole "drinking beer" thing to start with.

[DarkFell]

The images that I pulled up for Guinness are just too holy for this forum. It was either taint them or pull up some Corona.

[Leo656]

:lol: Most'a these kids couldn't handle Guinness anyways. You seen 'em in the other thread; "Er, I don't know, sir, my Mommy taught me never to even sip of the Devil's Nectar, that's only for ne'er-do-wells" and all'a that stuff. :lol:

Most of 'em would probably fall over and pass out from half a Mike's Hard. NANCIES! :trazz:

[DarkFell]

Mike's Lemonade is within the same category as Smirnoff and Angry Orchard, isn't it? As in, all wine coolers?
They're good for a sugar high and a mini-buzz. 'Bout it.

[Leo656]

Ahhhhh, my first drunken experience was off a 6-pack of wine coolers and a couple'a beers.

It was New Years Eve. I was 7 or 8 or so. Good times! :lol: