Dan DiDio OUT at DC Comics

[Andrew NDB]

https://i.ibb.co/3zJmZwL/a-HR0c-Dov-L3d3dy5u-ZXdz-YXJhb-WEu-Y29t-L2lt-YWdlcy9p-Lz-Aw-MC8y-Nj-Iv-Mzcy-L2kw-Mi9-EYW5-Ea-WRpby5qc-Gc.jpg

There's hope, yet.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/dcs-dan-didio-as-publisher-1280488

[MikeandRaph87]

WHAT? Wonder why? I am just glad he got the golden parachute. I HATE this guy as much as you HATE Geoff Johns! I finally got this after years!

FJbmB9k2Y88

Now lets hope JLI characters, Dick Grayson, and Barbara Gordon get better respect, and no more reboots every five years. *Looks at 5G*

[Andrew NDB]

I HATE this guy as much as you HATE Geoff Johns!

There is still the terrible possibility that they could swap in Geoff Johns, though...

[ZariusTwo]

there is still the terrible possibility that they could swap in geoff johns, though...

Bendis is coming

[oldmanwinters]

So in 2020, what is the "in-universe" legacy of The New 52 experiment?

[MikeandRaph87]

There is still the terrible possibility that they could swap in Geoff Johns, though...

I like his work with Hal Jordan and Wally West. At many events Johns did substitute for Didio alongside Lee because Didio did not go over well with audiences and putting Johns out there it was better received. That being said I know where you are coming from. I would be okay with the switch, but we do need someone who is passionate about comics and worked their way up in the business. Dan had no experience before getting a high profile job at DC in mid 2002. I prefer writers or artist not random media executives moving over to the left. Most of what I like or characters I like Dan had a distaste for so there was always that natural bitterness. He was also disrespectful to myself and other when asking a question at a panel.

Its just, why now? If its DC employees leaving in high numbers because of him, that happened at least twice before, around 2009 and then again in 2012.

[Andrew NDB]

I like his work with Hal Jordan and Wally West. At many events Johns did substitute for Didio alongside Lee because Didio did not go over well with audiences and putting Johns out there it was better received. That being said I know where you are coming from. I would be okay with the switch, but we do need someone who is passionate about comics and worked their way up in the business. Dan had no experience before getting a high profile job at DC in mid 2002. I prefer writers or artist not random media executives moving over to the left. Most of what I like or characters I like Dan had a distaste for so there was always that natural bitterness. He was also disrespectful to myself and other when asking a question at a panel.

Its just, why now? If its DC employees leaving in high numbers because of him, that happened at least twice before, around 2009 and then again in 2012.

Probably just comes down to sales being way down. Alienating workers and coming up with new hokey, tired event ideas were probably secondary.

I don't want to get too excited because we don't know their next move. Whether it's giving it to Johns, Bendis, or just some random black, lesbian woman who believes there isn't enough social justice in DC comics to check all the right boxes... a lot can go awry in the days ahead.

[IMJ]

Oh I didn't know you had a thread about this - I just started one as well. My take on it is that it's not good news, given all of the circumstances surrounding what's been going on in the industry and with DC, their lost sales and the upcoming 5G thing that people are largely up in arms about.

The guy has nearly two decades there....

[MikeandRaph87]

Now DiDio is gone - he's been the "Stan Lee" of DC since 2002.


???
Stan Lee wrote hundreds of comics, created dozens of classic characters with staying power than inspired generations, and was a people person. Dan Didio had no comic industry experience, his first writing gig was canceled in six months, due to his TV production expeirence he moved it not editorial and made many bad decisions, upsets fans at conventions with his demeanor and is very disliked in the work place openly and secretly. There is no comparing those two. Not at all!

[Andrew NDB]

My take on it is that it's not good news, given all of the circumstances surrounding what's been going on in the industry and with DC, their lost sales and the upcoming 5G thing that people are largely up in arms about.

Most of which could probably be pinned on him.

The guy has nearly two decades there....

And for most of them he's been running it as a tyrant (https://www.comicsbeat.com/chuck-dixon-and-the-dcu/), pushing out legendary talents and forcing event after event.

[MikeandRaph87]

I apologize for my overactive excitement at the news. I am always civil and thoughtful in my discussions and try to be positive. The hatred directed towards a person who I find polarizing and has off put me for years was uncalled for.

[IMJ]

???
Stan Lee wrote hundreds of comics, created dozens of classic characters with staying power than inspired generations, and was a people person. Dan Didio had no comic industry experience, his first writing gig was canceled in six months, due to his TV production expeirence he moved it not editorial and made many bad decisions, upsets fans at conventions with his demeanor and is very disliked in the work place openly and secretly. There is no comparing those two. Not at all!

I was making a comparison of figure heads and tenure. Not of merit and virtue. :roll:

I apologize for my overactive excitement at the news. I am always civil and thoughtful in my discussions and try to be positive. The hatred directed towards a person who I find polarizing and has off put me for years was uncalled for.

You clearly have some angst towards DiDio. I'm not as vested in DC stuff. The closest true "vestment" for me is what I've thrown into my Green Lantern collection and that's only expensive once you get deep into the Silver Age. Anything else from DC for me is cherry picked - Jim Lee's Batman and Superman run, Frank Miller stuff. I'll buy DC books but I normally need the excuse of a helluva event or a truly high end creator on book. Their animated products put Marvel's to shame.

[Andrew NDB]

You clearly have some angst towards DiDio. I'm not as vested in DC stuff.

Well I am and let me assure you, that man is a true piece of sh**, through and through. All of the terrible decisions at DC over the past 20 years I could point to, he was at the forefront of every one. Smiling with that sh**-eating grin. Giggling, even. I've seen him so many times here in Seattle's Emerald City Comic Con and San Diego Comic Con at the mic that that damn giggle is stuck in my head. The way he dismissively talks to the fans, the way he answers (or doesn't) their questions... he's something else, man.

If Geoff is the trigger man ruining and retconning everything he touches and atrophying every series he writes with his own inane events, Didio is the guy who enabled him and protected him. He created him as we know him and, for a time, made him unstoppable.

[MikeandRaph87]

The reason I had such venom towards him is my investment in DC comics and the way he spoke to me and fans when I interacted with him at various panels at Heroes Con. Asking about the bait and switch of Dick and Barbara's engagement he told me, " I will keep them a part with the jaws of life while I am here.". Asked about after the success of Wally's run, could we see Wally active along side Barry or allow Wally be the premiere Flash? He laughed and suggested that I look forward to Barry being made as interesting as Wally.

Think of how controversial a female 5th Turtle is and how it bombed. Then think of how Jeinnka does not have much development and is bland with a round about way of mutating. Did I and many others raise hell? No we gave Tom, Kevin, and Bobby a chance and were open to it even if not something we want. It is like Andrew mentioned that sarcastic giggle at fans despense while some ideas could have been more acceptable even if unwanted if he approached fans better and considered what they want.

Aside from three separate times there was openly an exodus largely because of Didio's policies several times over the years he was reportedly fired only for retraction later.

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2018/11/06/dan-didio-not-fired-mark-doyle/

[IMJ]

All of the terrible decisions at DC over the past 20 years I could point to, he was at the forefront of every one.

This is actually how I feel about Joe Quesada. Not his personality - he's not the worst guy in the world. But I sort of trace every extremely liberal issue back to Joe Quesada's initial reign as EIC of Marvel Comics.

This is all illustrated by some of the things he said, some of the philosophies about various marvel IP's I've heard him discuss, and a large degree of ultra-liberal-minded processes came out of his reign - and to be clear when I say liberal-minded, I'm not speaking politically. Even worse - I'm talking behaviorally - like no plan, super shapeless BS - the throw all **** at the wall and see what sticks attitude.

So sure I have some appreciation for what you and MikeandRaph87 are getting at, I suppose.

The reason I had such venom towards him is my investment in DC comics and the way he spoke to me and fans when I interacted with him at various panels at Heroes Con. Asking about the bait and switch of Dick and Barbara's engagement he told me, " I will keep them a part with the jaws of life while I am here.".

See that's the kind of attitude Quesada had from his philosophies of the characters. He was the "One More Day" guy with Spider-Man who insisted that the character was failing in comics because of his marriage to M.J. He'd go on about how every single worthwhile Spider-Man story was told when he wasn't married and was in college.

Quesada had big opportunities with Quasar as well, but in an interview tore the character up completely warping that character's truth - instead of Wendell being a believer in life and energy who goes with the flow, Quesada minced the words into that the character "lacks the will to win" simply because he didn't like the character. Who knows why? Maybe because Quasar was a blue eyed, blond haired SHIELD agent and Quesada wanted anything that wasn't that wearing the Quantum Bands.

So I get it, man.

[Andrew NDB]

Ethan Van Sciver apparently has inside intel that now -- and this isn't necessarily connected to Didio's departure -- if the 5G event fails (where all series end and begin a few years in the future with like a new, black Superman, yet another GL, etc.) then DC Comics itself will be shuttered. In terms of making monthly comics. That'll be that.

[IMJ]

Ethan Van Sciver apparently has inside intel that now -- and this isn't necessarily connected to Didio's departure -- if the 5G event fails (where all series end and begin a few years in the future with like a new, black Superman, yet another GL, etc.) then DC Comics itself will be shuttered. In terms of making monthly comics. That'll be that.

Actually let me use that and put it in perspective. In the other thread and this one where I was expressing a sense of urgency about this? This was why... except the correct directionality goes like this:

01 DC has been in publishing trouble
02 AT&T has stated that they have "no sacred cows" in their portfolio. Most reasonable people here should understand what that means in relation to DC
03 The 5g initiative came along, pimped by Didio
04 there has been backlash to it
05 Didio is gone.

So you can see why this is crazy. Because the directionality is not "they were going to do 5g, but now Didio is gone and if 5g fails then DC goes under".

Instead it's 5g was in the works under DiDio to hopefully save DC, but no one believed in it and now he's gone before it even launched.

Big difference.

[Andrew NDB]

Actually let me use that and put it in perspective. In the other thread and this one where I was expressing a sense of urgency about this? This was why... except the correct directionality goes like this:

01 DC has been in publishing trouble
02 AT&T has stated that they have "no sacred cows" in their portfolio. Most reasonable people here should understand what that means in relation to DC
03 The 5g initiative came along, pimped by Didio
04 there has been backlash to it
05 Didio is gone.

So you can see why this is crazy. Because the directionality is not "they were going to do 5g, but now Didio is gone and if 5g fails then DC goes under".

Instead it's 5g was in the works under DiDio to hopefully save DC, but no one believed in it and now he's gone before it even launched.

Big difference.

Huh. Yeah, seems about right. But what happens to 5G now? And if it still breathes, then are the stakes the same? And if 5G dies with him... what then?

Also, while I'm sure he probably pushed it out of a lack of idea and the knowledge that New52 DID (temporarily) spike sales, in history he HATES legacy characters. He made sure and undo all the Wally, Kyle type stuff. Nightwing would be long dead if he'd had his way (for years he had this strange obsession with killing him off).

[IMJ]

Huh. Yeah, seems about right. But what happens to 5G now? And if it still breathes, then are the stakes the same? And if 5G dies with him... what then?

Also, while I'm sure he probably pushed it out of a lack of idea and the knowledge that New52 DID (temporarily) spike sales, in history he HATES legacy characters. He made sure and undo all the Wally, Kyle type stuff. Nightwing would be long dead if he'd had his way (for years he had this strange obsession with killing him off).

So when DC did the New 52, I didn't mind at all. I was very surprised that they were renumbering even the Batman book, but I built an entire Snyder/Capullo run from day one on my pull list (I'm a Capullo fan going back to when he drew Quasar - some of the best flight and energy projection stuff you'll see in a comic came out of his pencils there). Not much else appealed to me - I might've gotten back on board with GL for a short while after being burned out completely by the whole rainbow corps stuff years prior, but I didn't hold on for very long.

But New 52 seemed okay man. You know why? DC hadn't done a relaunch in a long time and it seemed like a legit way to dig into the books for the long haul, as opposed to Marvel who was already renumbering books every several months. And so, whereas it seemed like a gimmick at Marvel, New 52 did feel like a legit clean slate at DC.

Then Rebirth cam along and I was never sure why they did it. I ordered the entire suite of #1 one shots from DCBS as a bundle and thought "I'll give DC a shot", but I didn't care about a single one of them. They are all filed away in my collection doing nothing.

I thought the New 52 had actual merit. But anything after didn't mean much to me. And on that note - it was Joe Quesada who started the renumbering craze, by the way. He did under the guise that the years of continuity was a barrier to readers. But yet no one has ever fessed up to how the relaunches have made that barrier impossible. Even I have a hard time keeping track of what Iron Man volume is what nowadays, and I'm a bonafide, published "Iron Man Expert" lmao!

DC at least held on to their core values longer, but this 5G thing is going to crash. People hated SJW Marvel and the market share tanked. If you ask me, my guess is that people are going to walk from DC in droves and not check it out in the first place. I also am guessing that DC will try to move Jim Lee up to publisher, but I'll be surprised if he wants to stay on the sinking ship, unless he has a clear vision for what to do. So 5G won't die with DiDio, but I do think that DC as we know might die with 5G. Seriously, I'm not catastrophising, but rather the signs for this are all there.

[ZariusTwo]

Then Rebirth cam along and I was never sure why they did it..

Because N52 was a dumpster fire in the eyes of traditionalists, sales were in the toilet, and the characters were all unlikeable

[Andrew NDB]

Have to agree. "New52" would have had merit if "Brightest Day" hadn't perfectly set the stage for the future of the DCU like 2 months beforehand.

[TommyT]

Remember that time I told you all Disney was considering the purchase of DC?

Lol.

[Andrew NDB]

Remember that time I told you all Disney was considering the purchase of DC?

Well... yes, but it's like Apple considering the purchase of Android, or vice versa. The other party has to actually be wanting to sell. And while I can see why WB/AT&T might consider shedding this or that, it's hard to believe anyone with more than two brain cells to rub together would consider selling off freaking Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman. But it's very possible in this day and age. Who knows.

[TommyT]

Well... yes, but it's like Apple considering the purchase of Android, or vice versa. The other party has to actually be wanting to sell. And while I can see why WB/AT&T might consider shedding this or that, it's hard to believe anyone with more than two brain cells to rub together would consider selling off freaking Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman. But it's very possible in this day and age. Who knows.

I didn’t invent the rumour, lol, I heard it.

And yeah, realistically, DC has been an incredible headache, nobody knows what to do with the characters in 2020.

Star Wars was a juggernaut, now? Its a disaster, save for the mandelorian. Nobody wants to touch it. Superman and friends has found themselves in the same boat- its too toxic, and a mis step can be career ending. Too big, too expensive, to fickle a fanbase.

Dc has had more missed than hits, outside of Wonder Woman and Joker, nothing gas been a legitimate success, despite your claims that Suicide Squad did well, the fall out was disastrous.

This is prime time for acquisition.

[Andrew NDB]

Who knows how Suicide Squad did. They posted their budget then reshot like half of the movie and "forgot" to update it. Still, must have been enough to warrant a "sort of sequel" and a spinoff (Birds of Box Office failure).

[TommyT]

Who knows how Suicide Squad did. They posted their budget then reshot like half of the movie and "forgot" to update it. Still, must have been enough to warrant a "sort of sequel" and a spinoff (Birds of Box Office failure).

It was the sales if Harley Quinn merch that got everyone’s attention.
That was it, that was all. The popularity of Robbie in the role, was hard to ignore.

The film was a flop, hence the Gunn reboot.

[MikeandRaph87]

In light of this Ethan Van Sciver, who had conversations with at a forum I used to visit is following up an earlier discussion about DC layoffs and DC's bleak future. He suggested that if 5G fails, which it will then DC is shutdown as a comics company. I am a traditionalist who rejected the New 52 and would have accepted Barbara paraplegic over the Batman direction I was loving over the New 52 direction. It was darker and hard to recognize in its attempt to be relevant. I preferred the Rebirth concept. The 5G is likened to the New 52. A success of a few months that alienates what you already have in a customer base. Most everything DC has done that I did not like was all Dan Didio. I admit my favorite time at DC after the Bronze Age was 2006 to 2010. Dan Didio was a company executive,but Paul was the head and as soon as Paul was removed the New 52 was developed and Didio moved up to oversee it from behind the scenes. I looked for it to fail and I hope 5G does not happen. However just because of these drastic overalls that I a traditionalist fan who wanted Diduo gone should not be forced to root for an unwanted concept to succeed so the company will not fold. Why can Dan not have been fired years ago and the company continue on in the comic medium without his hair brained schemes.

This is an article on Van Sciver's follow up about previous discussion following Didio being ousted.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/cosmicbook.news/att-closing-dc-comics-5g-ethan-van-sciver%3famp


Where did Jurgens get this idea? I have only seen negative interactions between him and fans in Charlotte.

https://mobile.twitter.com/thedanjurgens/status/1230999096787423235?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcam p%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet


Here is more, he was fired for fostering a poor work environment.
https://www.bleedingcool.com/2020/02/21/why-dan-didio-leave-dc-comics/

Never cared much for the comics he wrote, but I am like minded with Rob Liefield on this. He also mentioned that the Didiot got a nice severance package.
https://mobile.twitter.com/robertliefeld/status/1230969213361082368

[Leo656]

Dan Jurgens is nothing if not the ultimate company man, and he also exudes class. Frankly I've never heard him say a negative word about anyone under any circumstances. Maybe he actually gets along with the guy, who knows? Lord knows I've been close with a lot of people who everyone has nothing but negative words for and about; sometimes people are different behind closed doors or to a man, even if they have questionable opinions or make questionable decisions.

Kinda like how it's hip to rip on Eric Bischoff with extreme prejudice, but anyone who's actually hung out with the dude can tell you he's one of the nicest guys around. People with really hard jobs up top in billion-dollar corporations don't always make the most popular decisions, and a lot of times there are reasons for that which you or I may not be privy to.

Not trying to go out of my way to defend DiDio, by any means, but I'm sure a lot of people in the business do get along with him.
---------------

Anyways, this sucks if it ends up turning for the worst. I know comics as a physical medium is inevitably - and sadly - going to die out sooner rather than later no matter what, but if DC ends up dying out for the same reasons WCW did - because the wrong soulless corporation got their hooks into it and just decided to sh*tcan it to cut costs - that would be tragic. Hopefully it won't come to that.
----------------

Regarding DC movie "successes", Aquaman made over a billion, I think that was pretty successful. That one might actually get a sequel that's not sh*tty, and not even Wonder Woman is gonna be able to say that. :lol:

[ZariusTwo]

Didio is being allowed to finish his Metal Men series at the company

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2020/02/22/dan-didio-shane-davis-metal-men-12/

Nicky Wheeler-Nicholson, the granddaughter of DC's founder, is not happy with Didio's sacking

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2020/02/22/the-way-dan-didio-was-fired-brutal-and-unnecessary-says-dc-comics-founders-granddaughter-nicky-wheeler-nicholson/

[Andrew NDB]

Dan Jurgens is nothing if not the ultimate company man, and he also exudes class.

I've met him many times. I love that guy.

[Leo656]

This is one of those "I want to see if I can skin you, then eat you, in a ritual to thereby absorb your spiritual essence and all of your experiences and memories into myself so that we in essence become One Being" kinda situations.

Because he's my favorite comics' creator ever and one of the few people in the industry I'd probably mark out over. Sadly, haven't had a chance to meet him yet. So I'm quite jealous.

I do have a copy of Superman #82 signed by him, though, but I didn't meet him, my Dad bought it someplace.

I did however meet Romeo Tanghal about 6 months after Kyle Rayner's run on Green Lantern started, though. True story, he and my Dad both had massive heart attacks around the same time and were roommates in the hospital. My Dad told him I was a fan so he asked me to bring him some books to sign, which I still have. He also did some sketches of Superman and Green Lantern on some of those paper placemats they give you. I still have those, too, but they sadly got a little bit scuffed around the edges during one of our many moves.

Really swell fella. Nice guy. Apparently drawing/inking comics is a lot more stressful than one would think, because apparently his incident was less lifestyle-related and more stress-related, at least based on what he said at the time. Anyway, that was a great experience.

[ZariusTwo]

Wj6oo0dtANY

[IMJ]

Disney isn't going to be the publisher for DC. Not gonna happen - we are so far removed from that scenerio. DC would have to go bankrupt and literally go under amidst a restructuring.

What makes more sense is:
-that DC would go bankrupt
-Investors from Warner Brothers itself would rally and reorganize to buy DC under a new banner from AT&T to save it
-It'd be parsed out as a separate entity under LLC and eventually resume publishing.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Ethan Van Sciver apparently has inside intel that now -- and this isn't necessarily connected to Didio's departure -- if the 5G event fails (where all series end and begin a few years in the future with like a new, black Superman, yet another GL, etc.) then DC Comics itself will be shuttered. In terms of making monthly comics. That'll be that.

Hope not. Getting rid of Didio seems like a good idea... as long as somebody good is brought up to replace him.

Huh. Yeah, seems about right. But what happens to 5G now? And if it still breathes, then are the stakes the same? And if 5G dies with him... what then?

Also, while I'm sure he probably pushed it out of a lack of idea and the knowledge that New52 DID (temporarily) spike sales, in history he HATES legacy characters. He made sure and undo all the Wally, Kyle type stuff. Nightwing would be long dead if he'd had his way (for years he had this strange obsession with killing him off).

5G always sounded like a terrible idea. Wouldn't mind seeing it crash and burn.

He hates the legacy characters, which is super frustrating, because they're usually my favorites. Nightwing, Cassandra Cain, etc...

[MikeandRaph87]

Hope not. Getting rid of Didio seems like a good idea... as long as somebody good is brought up to replace him.



5G always sounded like a terrible idea. Wouldn't mind seeing it crash and burn.

He hates the legacy characters, which is super frustrating, because they're usually my favorites. Nightwing, Cassandra Cain, etc...

This inspired me to make a thread about the blessing and curse of legacy characters. There is a bigger topic here. With 5 G why not let the actual legacy characters embrace it? Characters who are made up on a whim don't work out to take on a legacy. Linda Danvers is better than Jonathan among the many examples where each happens to be Caucasian.

[Andrew NDB]

This inspired me to make a thread about the blessing and curse of legacy characters. There is a bigger topic here. With 5 G why not let the actual legacy characters embrace it? Characters who are made up on a whim don't work out to take on a legacy. Linda Danvers is better than Jonathan among the many examples where each happens to be Caucasian.

5G is not supposed to involve any preexisting legacy characters, but instead create entirely new and "diverse" ones.

[AquaParade]

Dick and Damian would have been Batman and Robin for years, if I had it my way. "Return of Bruce Wayne" would have been a big event from the last few years.

[MikeandRaph87]

Dick and Damian would have been Batman and Robin for years, if I had it my way. "Return of Bruce Wayne" would have been a big event from the last few years.

Same here. I don't care much for Damien, but it allowed Dick to grow into what it was avoided for him to grow into the true and only successor to Batman while making it his own at the same time.Also, the inverse of the light-hearted/brocading pair. I bought every issue with Dick Grayson under the cowl.

[Leo656]

F*ck Damien Wayne.

[ZariusTwo]

F*ck Damien Wayne.

Would you f*ck Helena Wayne?:)

[AquaParade]

Same here. I don't care much for Damien, but it allowed Dick to grow into what it was avoided for him to grow into the true and only successor to Batman while making it his own at the same time.Also, the inverse of the light-hearted/brocading pair. I bought every issue with Dick Grayson under the cowl.

Totally. That flipped dynamic was such a joy to read. So many great lines fed through the characters by Morrison in that run too. "Batman and Robin - together again for the first time". It totally felt like a natural fit for Dick as well. The first three issues are particularly special to me, but the whole run is a treat.

Such a shame they cut it short, especially given Morrison's desire to keep going.

[CyberCubed]

I just hate the idea of 4 Robin’s all so close in age, especially with Bruce being an immortal 35 year old. It just doesn’t make sense and means each Robin was only around for like 2-3 years.

[IMJ]

I just hate the idea of 4 Robin’s all so close in age, especially with Bruce being an immortal 35 year old. It just doesn’t make sense and means each Robin was only around for like 2-3 years.

Yeah - it's like Star Trek Insurrection. A planet of people who age normally under they are in their late 20's/30 somethings. LOL!

But that's also part of the charm of comics.

[Leo656]

Would you f*ck Helena Wayne?:)

I'd do pretty much any Huntress, yeah :lol:

[Andrew NDB]

Yeah - it's like Star Trek Insurrection. A planet of people who age normally under they are in their late 20's/30 somethings.

It's a lot simpler than that. You read your average 20-22 page issue of anything, it's usually happening in real time. i.e., you're reading 20 minutes -- for example -- in Spider-Man's life. More often than not, it will be "TO BE CONTINUED" directly into the next issue which comes out in a month, which features the next 20 minutes in Spider-Man's life. Even though a month has passed in reality, only 40 minutes has actually passed in Spider-Man's life.

12 months x 20 minutes... that's 4 hours of a character's life per year we actually get. So with Spider-Man, it's been 58 years since he debuted. That's... 232 hours of a character's life we get to experience, or just over 9 days. Of course you can adjust for when you see them sleeping, or when time actually passes because they tell us it does... but it's not lot of time.

My point is, it only seems like Dick and Jason and Tim spent years with Batman to us. In-universe, there's not that much time passing at all and that's not even remotely weird.

[Leo656]

I used to enjoy it when occasionally they'd drop a throw-away line into a story to kind of catch readers up on how much time had passed in-story. Like when Superman went off into space after killing Zod, after he came back Lois or someone mentioned that he was gone for an entire year. That was nice, because I had been wondering.

I think if you get too strict with it it messes everything up, because there's simply too much going on for it to all neatly fit, but a few things like that every so often are nice.

[MikeandRaph87]

One thing I had no idea was Geoff John's had a feud with Didio and Rebirth is Johns concept. I know Green Lantern continued on despite the New 52, but I was under the impression that early on Johns, Morrison, and Judd Winnick were Didio's innercircle. The return of Hal Jordan and then later Barry Allen was their shared idea, Johns coming to Didio with the pitches.

Once all the courtesies wear off and time passes I think it will be seen that every bad idea came from Dan and other successes came from others such as Johns, Levitz,etc. I just cannot think of anything positive thing that he did.

[Leo656]

Yeah, they seem like oil and water to me; Johns is a traditionalist with a heavy affection for the Silver Age, and DiDio is an iconoclast who just wants to be as controversial as possible. Frankly I'm amazed that they ever got anything done together.

[AquaParade]

There's too much we don't actually know for me to make a judgement on how well the man did his job, but there were definitely some good initiatives out of DC over the last decade to go along with whatever complaints many will have.

I believe he got the ball rolling on the Young Animal Imprint, but I could be wrong. Black Label is cool, in theory, as well.

[Leo656]

Never met him. But I've heard enough horror stories from people who have met him, including many who've worked directly with or under him, to believe that there's plenty of smoke to the fire.

I empathize with him to a point, because as a member of "Team Corporate" he has to answer to shareholders and suits and has to deal with stuff that us "mere mortals" can't even fathom, and what Corporate wants usually has little or nothing to do with what fans want to see. But on the flip side, DC under DiDio has done the complete opposite of what the fans collectively wanted to see SO many times, that it makes you wonder if maybe things might have gone better if they'd actually listened to what they wanted instead of telling them what they're supposed to want a little more often.

I mean, when New 52 leaked out, people collectively said, "Please do NOT do this. We don't WANT this." Except for a vocal minority of people (mostly Marvel fans) who had never cared about DC anyway. DC and DiDio's response was basically, "Well, we're doing it. We're committed to it. Deal with it or get lost." And then when it didn't work they had to call a mulligan on it ANYway, but they didn't get back even half of the readers they'd pushed out the door, and the ones who jumped onto the New 52 out of curiosity - Spoiler Alert - didn't stick around anyway, because they were never going to.

I don't know. Like I said, I know DiDio has had to make decisions from a much more corporate mindset than a fan's perspective, but I kinda feel like he just doesn't value the same things as the readers do. The closest person I can compare him to is Vince Russo; all shock and awe, no long-term planning or consideration for what the "hardcore fans" want.

[IMJ]

It's a lot simpler than that. You read your average 20-22 page issue of anything, it's usually happening in real time. i.e., you're reading 20 minutes -- for example -- in Spider-Man's life. More often than not, it will be "TO BE CONTINUED" directly into the next issue which comes out in a month, which features the next 20 minutes in Spider-Man's life. Even though a month has passed in reality, only 40 minutes has actually passed in Spider-Man's life.

12 months x 20 minutes... that's 4 hours of a character's life per year we actually get. So with Spider-Man, it's been 58 years since he debuted. That's... 232 hours of a character's life we get to experience, or just over 9 days. Of course you can adjust for when you see them sleeping, or when time actually passes because they tell us it does... but it's not lot of time.

My point is, it only seems like Dick and Jason and Tim spent years with Batman to us. In-universe, there's not that much time passing at all and that's not even remotely weird.

I've had this exact conversation a thousand times online and often have rationalized things exactly as you did here. But then if you really want to mind #$@! the convo, you can spin in how every title will have the occassional "epic story" in one arc that takes place across some period of time that wipes out everything.

Batman stories that span "weeks" or "months", and you find this out in one line of dialog, or how about Busiek's Kang War story that spanned almost a year of "comic time" in dialog (one off lines in a story that go something like "Wonder Man, we've been organizing the resistance for months now and we've only....").

Time in comics has been discussed like this forever. Back in the day it took place in letter's columns! LMAO!

[AquaParade]

Never met him. But I've heard enough horror stories from people who have met him, including many who've worked directly with or under him, to believe that there's plenty of smoke to the fire.

I empathize with him to a point, because as a member of "Team Corporate" he has to answer to shareholders and suits and has to deal with stuff that us "mere mortals" can't even fathom, and what Corporate wants usually has little or nothing to do with what fans want to see. But on the flip side, DC under DiDio has done the complete opposite of what the fans collectively wanted to see SO many times, that it makes you wonder if maybe things might have gone better if they'd actually listened to what they wanted instead of telling them what they're supposed to want a little more often.

I mean, when New 52 leaked out, people collectively said, "Please do NOT do this. We don't WANT this." Except for a vocal minority of people (mostly Marvel fans) who had never cared about DC anyway. DC and DiDio's response was basically, "Well, we're doing it. We're committed to it. Deal with it or get lost." And then when it didn't work they had to call a mulligan on it ANYway, but they didn't get back even half of the readers they'd pushed out the door, and the ones who jumped onto the New 52 out of curiosity - Spoiler Alert - didn't stick around anyway, because they were never going to.

I don't know. Like I said, I know DiDio has had to make decisions from a much more corporate mindset than a fan's perspective, but I kinda feel like he just doesn't value the same things as the readers do. The closest person I can compare him to is Vince Russo; all shock and awe, no long-term planning or consideration for what the "hardcore fans" want.

Well said.

New52 was interesting. I'm compelled to commend it for being bold, exciting, and a passionate attempt to put a spark into a dying industry. It deserves credit as well for leading to a few great hits.
I wouldn't try and defend it overall though. Definitely a bit of a disaster.

[Andrew NDB]

New52 was interesting. I'm compelled to commend it for being bold, exciting, and a passionate attempt to put a spark into a dying industry.

It's just puzzling to me, though. They do "Final Crisis" which was going to be the final story of the old continuity... but they made Morrison pump the breaks on all that (probably because they realized it wasn't a good idea to give readers a literal jumping off point)... and they go on to do "Brightest Day" for a whole year, which was not a bad story at all that rearranged the deck and put all of the characters old and new in great places to be. Also, it led into the classic JL:I reforming. Everybody was happy! Sales were good. So what do they do IMMEDIATELY next? "Flashpoint" and the New52 reboot. It was as uncalled for as it was infuriating.

[Leo656]

For sure, it was like the exact opposite of what "Brightest Day" and everything else seemed to have been building towards.

Rumor was that it was how both Final Crisis AND "World of New Krypton" under-performed that forced the New 52 reboot. They pushed both of those things extremely hard and they weren't the breakout hits they should have been. New Krypton, specifically, should have been trimmed down by about 2/3s. It started out great but OH MY LORD did it turn into a slog with all the Superwoman and Mon-El and Nightwing/Flamebird stuff.

Both those events could have worked just fine with a little bit of editing, so it's a shame they ended up being the final nail, more or less.

[Andrew NDB]

Hah, I completely forgot about World of Krypton. I remember it being interesting as a concept, though finding the event pointless. Final Crisis, that was Didio's fault. Morrison was going to do the big "Final DC Story" until the last minute, when Didio changed his mind (or when people made Didio change his mind). So now you've got the big "Final DC Story" that is no longer going to be that, but it's already kind of designed like that. Like a gun, that can't shoot.

[Leo656]

I think everyone forgot about World of New Krypton. :lol: I don't know anyone who was reading it at the beginning who managed to stick around until the end of it. It took literally forever getting there. One year long, felt like five.

Basically, a year-long slog of "Can Earthlings and Kryptonians co-exist?" and "Is Zod really a decent guy who's simply been misunderstood all this time?", taking up WAY too much real estate in WAY too many books, with WAY too many side-plots, only to arrive at Foregone Conclusion Central with the answer to both of those questions being a resounding "Oh HELL No." :lol: Which we all knew before it started.

Like, there's nothing wrong with occasionally exploring a story where everyone already knows full well how it's going to end, but for f*ck's sake, IF everybody already knows how it's going to end, then there's simply no point in stretching it across 80 issues. We know before we open issue #1 that Zod's gonna turn heel and we know all the Kryptonians are gonna die or get zapped to the Phantom Zone. Superwoman, Mon-El, Nightwing and Flamebird... NOBODY CARES! :lol: Nobody has EVER cared about those characters. They took up way too much space in what would have otherwise been an interesting plot about Kal-El trying to revive his species and being forced to work side-by-side with Zod to do so, even if everyone knew going in that it wasn't going to end well.

The joy is in the journey, and all that, but the whole time I was like, "When are we gonna get to the fireworks factory?!" And then when they finally did I was too exhausted to care.

[Andrew NDB]

Oh, remember one of the worst examples of Didio diddling? "Cry for Justice," right? I don't think I really need to get into detail. If you read it, you know.

[AquaParade]

It's just puzzling to me, though. They do "Final Crisis" which was going to be the final story of the old continuity... but they made Morrison pump the breaks on all that (probably because they realized it wasn't a good idea to give readers a literal jumping off point)... and they go on to do "Brightest Day" for a whole year, which was not a bad story at all that rearranged the deck and put all of the characters old and new in great places to be. Also, it led into the classic JL:I reforming. Everybody was happy! Sales were good. So what do they do IMMEDIATELY next? "Flashpoint" and the New52 reboot. It was as uncalled for as it was infuriating.

My guess is that fans being happy and sales being "good" wasn't enough for an industry in decline. I believe it was something of a last ditch effort to pump comics back in the mainstream. Yes, at the expense of current, invested readers. It was an explosive idea that backfired.

[TommyT]

I mean, when New 52 leaked out, people collectively said, "Please do NOT do this. We don't WANT this." Except for a vocal minority of people (mostly Marvel fans) who had never cared about DC anyway. DC and DiDio's response was basically, "Well, we're doing it. We're committed to it. Deal with it or get lost." And then when it didn't work they had to call a mulligan on it ANYway, but they didn't get back even half of the readers they'd pushed out the door, and the ones who jumped onto the New 52 out of curiosity - Spoiler Alert - didn't stick around anyway, because they were never going to.


Ok, so, this parallels the whole Rise debacle. Almost word for word, if you just switch DC for Nick, it’s one in the same.

Now, I know how the big machine works, maybe a little too well, but I still haven’t actually figured out WHY this continues to happen, across all fandoms, over and over again. It would be fascinating, if it weren’t so gut wrenching.

Who is driving the stupid into us?

[MikeandRaph87]

I have read that ever since Didio got an executive position he was looking to completely reboot the comics continuity and line with every crisis, first Infinite Crisis, then Final Crisis, again with Blackest Night, but every time Paul Levitz said, "no". Then the next even was Flashpoint and Paul was not there to put his foot down. Flashpoint was meant to be like Blackest Night, a big event centered around a character no need to read this or that if you don't want to. I really enjoyed Blackest Night and the best part was it was self-contained and looking at the bigger story was optional. Flashpoint is enforcing things on an entire line that most of it had nothing to do with it. DC was in a good place. It was unnecessary. What surprises me is Didio thought the New 52 would be a long-term success. Short-term samplers sure, but overhaul? I want to see his executive standpoint on what made him think an entire line revamp was necessary.

[Andrew NDB]

I have read that ever since Didio got an executive position he was looking to completely reboot the comics continuity and line with every crisis, first Infinite Crisis, then Final Crisis, again with Blackest Night, but every time Paul Levitz said, "no"

I remember reading the same things. That he would always say and vow, "Crisis on Infinite Earths was only a half measure! It didn't re-number everything back to #1. That's what we need to do now!" as if that'd be some kind of cure-all.

[rickwj324]

Well I am and let me assure you, that man is a true piece of sh**, through and through. All of the terrible decisions at DC over the past 20 years I could point to, he was at the forefront of every one. Smiling with that sh**-eating grin. Giggling, even. I've seen him so many times here in Seattle's Emerald City Comic Con and San Diego Comic Con at the mic that that damn giggle is stuck in my head. The way he dismissively talks to the fans, the way he answers (or doesn't) their questions... he's something else, man.

If Geoff is the trigger man ruining and retconning everything he touches and atrophying every series he writes with his own inane events, Didio is the guy who enabled him and protected him. He created him as we know him and, for a time, made him unstoppable.

I totally agree with your assessment of Didio! Very glad he's gone! However Geoff Johns has written some really great things at DC in the past and I have much more respect for him than I do for Didio. DiDio truly screwed over DC during his reign. If this new 5G initiative goes forward it will be the final nail in the coffin for DC. I'm so sick of SJW b.s. and political agenda driving our beloved comics in the ground.

[Andrew NDB]

I'm so sick of SJW b.s. and political agenda driving our beloved comics in the ground.

It's pretty sadly hysterical that that's DC's last ditch effort to save their comics. Like, that's been the supposed power play in their pocket this whole time, this kind of SJW button on the wall with a "break in case of emergency" over it? Pathetic. They deserve to fail.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

It's pretty sadly hysterical that that's DC's last ditch effort to save their comics. Like, that's been the supposed power play in their pocket this whole time, this kind of SJW button on the wall with a "break in case of emergency" over it? Pathetic. They deserve to fail.

It didn't work for Marvel. Why should DC expect any different?

[AquaParade]

I was under the impression that G5 was more of a legacy-character event, not necessarily "SJW-related", but I haven't been totally keeping up.

I just knew that a black Batman was coming and it sounded pretty cool to me, tbh. I enjoy seeing other characters under the cowl, when done right.

[Andrew NDB]

I was under the impression that G5 was more of a legacy-character event, not necessarily "SJW-related"

It's been specifically alluded that none of the 5G replacement characters will be any existing legacy characters.

I just knew that a black Batman was coming and it sounded pretty cool to me, tbh.

What part of that sounds cool? And they already did a black Batman with "Batwing." It did a respectable 2 1/2 year run but ultimately failed.

Makes you wonder, how is this supposed to work with something like Green Lantern? That's not a mantle... it's a ring. And it's lots of them. Are Hal Jordan, Guy Gardner, John Stewart, Kyle Rayner, Jessica Cruz, and Simon Baz all just suddenly going to retire?

[Leo656]

Yeah, it's f*cking pathetic because as MikeandRaph mentioned in another thread, DC already has a TON of legacy characters that have been perfectly set up and established for just this kind of stunt... BUT, as I pointed out in the same thread, they're all too white and too straight to be "allowed" to step into the roles that some of them have been set up for over DECADES of stories already. So we have to whip up a bunch of not-white, not-straight characters out of thin air and cram them down everybody's throats instead when the people reading the books would rather have Wally West and Dick Grayson.

As CKD said, it didn't work for Marvel, because blatant pandering nonsense like this is incredibly transparent, and as Andrew pointed out, deserves to fail because it's sh*tty on its face.

In other notes...

- Man, Cry For Justice was terrible. Good artwork, though. Story was a f*ckin' pooch.

- Man, "Blackest Night" was great. Especially considering how all-encompassing it was. How'd they not screw that up, I wonder? One of the very few "events" that I really don't have any problems with whatsoever.

[Andrew NDB]

- Man, Cry For Justice was terrible. Good artwork, though.

Not after the first couple of issues. Remember, they changed their painted artist out with a regular artist when Didio changed the story midway through?

- Man, "Blackest Night" was great. Especially considering how all-encompassing it was. How'd they not screw that up, I wonder?

Eh, they didn't?

[Leo656]

Well *I* liked it. :lol:

And forgive me for not remembering more about the artwork in Cry For Justice. I read it A-to-Z all of once and since then all I remember about it was from Linkara's videos, which I also haven't watched in a long time. :lol:

I knew that whole thing was gonna suck when it was announced. "It's a new JLA, except they go out and beat up bad guys for things they MIGHT do soon but haven't done just yet, and also stuff they already did and were already punished for in previous stories. Because JUSTICE!" :lol: I remember the editors being SO gung-ho about it, when it was originally an ongoing and not a mini-series - "This is what the JLA SHOULD be doing all the time! Go out and stop bad guys BEFORE they do bad things, not just wait for bad things to happen and then go clean up the mess afterwards!" - and I remember myself and others going "Um... that's kinda fascist, boss." Little bit too Minority Report, for me.

And I guess they hadn't thought about it like that at all until people started pointing it out, because five minutes later it was a mini-series. :lol: What a f*cking wreck. And all that story really served to do at all, was undo about 20+ years of Roy Harper's character development and turn him into a junkie scumbag again, thus ensuring that I'd never root for him again no matter how many "redemption" arcs they'd try and give him after that, because now he's firmly established as a whiny bum who gives up and starts shooting up every time he has a bad day. He was supposed to have been way, way past that sh*t. Nope, still a loser! Way to make me completely quit on a character I was finally starting to like, DC.

I gotta stop. That was such a terrible series I could be here until tomorrow ripping on it. But I maintain that Blackest Night was awesome. :trazz:

[MikeandRaph87]

Yeah, it's f*cking pathetic because as MikeandRaph mentioned in another thread, DC already has a TON of legacy characters that have been perfectly set up and established for just this kind of stunt... BUT, as I pointed out in the same thread, they're all too white and too straight to be "allowed" to step into the roles that some of them have been set up for over DECADES of stories already. So we have to whip up a bunch of not-white, not-straight characters out of thin air and cram them down everybody's throats instead when the people reading the books would rather have Wally West and Dick Grayson.

As CKD said, it didn't work for Marvel, because blatant pandering nonsense like this is incredibly transparent, and as Andrew pointed out, deserves to fail because it's sh*tty on its face.

In other notes...

- Man, Cry For Justice was terrible. Good artwork, though. Story was a f*ckin' pooch.

- Man, "Blackest Night" was great. Especially considering how all-encompassing it was. How'd they not screw that up, I wonder? One of the very few "events" that I really don't have any problems with whatsoever.

What I liked about Blackest Night is if you did not care about the event you could ignore it. It also had a few mini-series so if you wondered how Dick and Tim were handling the event go to the mini-series not the ongoings. Same for the Titans. Same for Flash,etc. The overarcing ramifications only effected Green Lantern and I was one never to read a secondary GL title and it did not matter because I did not miss anything essential to the mini-series or what was going on in the Green Lantern (2005-2011) title that I was reading. That being said I read the event with interest because I had investment in the expanded GL mythology and see how Hal handled the crisis and got a great character arc for John Stewart to resolve a long dangling ghost of his. Thatbeing said it worked well with continuity as "zombie lanterns" helped bring up bad memories or played upon their emotions like with Dick and Tim. So in summary I could read about the characters I was invested in and not have to buy other books while still getting solid characterization. That is what made it work for me so well, but also I think a number of readers. This is the format I would have preferred Flashpoint to do. Keep your crap in your corner and don't force it don't my throat. If you do then I am out. I also was invested in Wally West not Barry Allen. Problem was due to the change of ramifications I like the rest of the readers with a lack of investment could not ignore it like readers could Blackest Night.

[ZariusTwo]

This isn't good, now DC have pulled Friday's co-publishers panel at C2E2, although Jim Lee will still be in attendance with a Spotlight panel scheduled for Saturday

https://www.newsarama.com/49205-dc-cancels-c2e2-meet-the-publishers-panel-following-didio-exit.html

[MikeandRaph87]

rf6aamCTIns

This is good update of the situation. It also said Jeph Loeb was seen going into DC offices on Monday.

[MikeandRaph87]

Jim Lee hosted a panel this morning suggesting that he will remain the sole publisher and that 5G will not be a full line wide reboot. The one thing that bothers me is "and developing characters that are inclusive and diverse." My response is, "make new characters".
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.polygon.com/platform/amp/comics/2020/2/29/21157780/dc-comics-jim-lee-dan-didio-departure-c2e2

[ZariusTwo]

You know the old saying from Yes Minister....'don't believe anything until it's been officially denied'

[MikeandRaph87]

You know the old saying from Yes Minister....'don't believe anything until it's been officially denied'

He is the sole publisher for now. There were reports of Jeph Loeb being asked to the DC offices. We can assume he said "no" and its all speculation. That being said, since Didio is gone can Batman and Catwoman have a legal marriage and inspired by his father figure Dick follows up with a proposal to Barbara and they go through with it? Its time for marriages to be gone through with. There was a time the Hawks for married to each other, each Flash, Wonder Woman was married to Steve Trevor, The Atom, Adam Strange, Animal Man, Saturn Girl to Lightning Lad and a few others. It was more than Aquaman to Mera just because she could fight alongside him.

[IMJ]

Earlier in the thread I was talking about my observations and experiences with Joe Quesada. Then lo and behold I saw some articles implying that DC might bring Joe Quesada in.

Can you believe that?

[ZariusTwo]

Oh he's having fun with this

https://comicbook.com/dc/2020/02/29/marvel-boss-joe-quesada-batman-reveals-amazing-new-sketch/

[IMJ]

Man, "Blackest Night" was great. Especially considering how all-encompassing it was.

Blackest Night was where it started wearing thin for me - the whole rainbow corps stuff. Blackest Night was a fine story and I got through it but it's ending was a jumping off point for me.

The Sinestro Corps War was a masterpiece of modern storytelling that truly brought Green Lantern back into relevance. But by the time Blackest Night wrapped and I saw what was planned after, I was pretty much done with GL. I have been for years, which is unfortunate because it's the only DC character I was into enough to build a back issue run of going back to the Silver age.

[Leo656]

Can't really disagree. I was very intrigued by the Sinestro Corps, and then later on the whole "rainbow Corps" thing, simply because I saw it as a story with a beginning, middle, and end, which hadn't been done before in the GL mythos and had a lot of potential. And I really enjoyed the Sinestro Corps and Blackest Night stories a whole bunch at the time, as they felt like an organic progression and expansion of the idea.

If you had told me in 2006, however, that the various colored Corps would still be around and pretty much be the only storytelling device in the GL mythos through the year 2020, I'd be pretty annoyed and possibly not believe you. It does seem like the entire Green Lantern brand has been in a holding pattern ever since then, unable to move past what was originally a fairly creative idea.

I'm similar to you in that I stopped heavily collecting comics shortly after Blackest Night wrapped, but there were a variety of factors in play for that.

[Andrew NDB]

Can't really disagree. I was very intrigued by the Sinestro Corps, and then later on the whole "rainbow Corps" thing, simply because I saw it as a story with a beginning, middle, and end

It was anything but that. Every single event was cliffhung into the next. There's never been an ending since, like, early 2000s GL stories.

[Leo656]

I guess I should have said "A POTENTIAL end" or "A LOGICAL end".

I definitely didn't foresee it going on forever, was my point. Thought it was clear. ((shrug))

[MikeandRaph87]

The Comic Beat credited Didio with bringing back the original Supergirl after the trip to Six Flag noting the complicated origin. If he brought Supergirl back then Linda Danvers would be back from the grave. Just made Supergirl the blood cousin of Superman is all.

Who is responsible for Hal Jordan's return in 2004? I always credited Geoff Johns.

[Leo656]

Matrix Supergirl was always way more interesting than Kara. I wasn't a huge fan of that decision. They spent twenty years establishing and making a big deal out of the character, and then a snap of the fingers and suddenly, "Nah, she never existed, nevermind." Like she didn't have a solo series that lasted over 80 issues, or anything.

Like, I got the reasoning but I felt like the Kara Supergirl character had its day and Matrix was well-established enough that going backwards felt like... well, going backwards. Kind of a Barry Allen/Wally West deal. Similar timeframe, too, although Wally's run as Flash lasted a couple of years longer than Matrix/Linda's run as Superigrl did.

Sure was a lot of "Try and ignore the 90s" going on at DC after 2005, for a while.

[myconius]

it'd be truly awesome if DC did a complete 180 and quickly retconned this whole Ric Grayson nonsense, Wally West's HiC incident, as well as Lois & Clark's marriage crisis.

i'd love to see the look on DiDio's face when the sale numbers started to come back up.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

it'd be truly awesome if DC did a complete 180 and quickly retconned this whole Ric Grayson nonsense, Wally West's HiC incident, as well as Lois & Clark's marriage crisis.

i'd love to see the look on DiDio's face when the sale numbers started to come back up.

Maybe Marvel will hire him. Can't wait to see Scott Summers get shot in the head and start going by Scot instead.

[MikeandRaph87]

Matrix Supergirl was always way more interesting than Kara. I wasn't a huge fan of that decision. They spent twenty years establishing and making a big deal out of the character, and then a snap of the fingers and suddenly, "Nah, she never existed, nevermind." Like she didn't have a solo series that lasted over 80 issues, or anything.

Like, I got the reasoning but I felt like the Kara Supergirl character had its day and Matrix was well-established enough that going backwards felt like... well, going backwards. Kind of a Barry Allen/Wally West deal. Similar timeframe, too, although Wally's run as Flash lasted a couple of years longer than Matrix/Linda's run as Superigrl did.

Sure was a lot of "Try and ignore the 90s" going on at DC after 2005, for a while.

I like the pre-crisis Supergirl. The Matrix/Angel thing was a headache even in comic book standards. Linda Danvers never really returned outside the Deadman Christmas story a few year later and the final issue of the Matrix Supergirl.

How to Didido get hired at DC without any comic credentials to his name?

[myconius]

Maybe Marvel will hire him. Can't wait to see Scott Summers get shot in the head and start going by Scot instead.

hahahahaa!!!! OH NO!! if actually hired by Marvel, he'd probably WOULD do that! :lol:

[Leo656]

I like the pre-crisis Supergirl. The Matrix/Angel thing was a headache even in comic book standards.

Eh, not really. Everything is complicated when it's being explained third-hand rather than actually reading it as it happened.

The hardest thing I think to wrap one's head around is/was, "She was originally a shapeshifting mass of protomatter that came from a parallel universe." And that's definitely "out there" but no more or less so than anything else. And it's definitely not very complicated. Just... weird.

Her solo book was almost over by the time I got around to reading it, and I expected the whole Linda Danvers/Earth Angel of Fire thing to be a lot more complicated than it actually is. It explains itself reasonably well in-story, however.

Frankly, I've always sided with Byrne on the "Last Kryptonian" thing. Kal-El is the last one, that's the entire point. Kara Zor-El was always a very one-dimensional character in the Silver Age; ironically enough, the story which gave her the most depth was the one where she was killed off. Dying was literally the most interesting thing she ever did, as harsh as that sounds. I don't hate the character or anything, I like "Supergirl" as an idea, it's just I don't think we need any extra Kryptonians flying around and she simply wasn't ever done well. I own several of her solo books from back in the 70s/80s; they're awful. She was never a "character", she was a marketing tool to sell comic books to little girls, nothing more. And that's fine, but I never felt any urgency to see her again. I also didn't care for the 2005 reboot version, because in typical DC fashion, "adding depth" meant turning her into a whiny, spoiled brat and teasing that she was a secret sleeper agent sent to kill Kal. That's... better? I mean... it's something. I haven't read any of her books since before New 52, though, so maybe it got better, but I can't speak to it.

Using Matrix changed the entire character and her dynamic as relates to Superman, however. Having her own completely unique power set helped her stand on her own, and I really liked her existential crises about her origins, her personality/identity (or lack of one), her reason for being, etc. All of that was really well done and she went on quite a journey over those 15 or so years. "Complicated" or not, she was infinitely more interesting than Kara Zor-El, just as a character in general. She had a whole different set of baggage than "Superman's my cousin." And I appreciated that the writers went out of their way to do all that work to make her unique and different. I did NOT appreciate it all being handwaved away because editors assume that people can't read.

Marix/Linda had reached a point where she didn't need to be a sidekick to Superman or have him guest-star in her stories in order for her to be interesting. Kara simply hadn't gotten to that point in anything I'd ever read up to 2009.

I think it says a lot about Kara that in the TV series - arguably the very best interpretation of Kara Zor-El that's ever been done, the show's many flaws aside - the supposed best episodes are all rewritten Superman stories that simply plug her into his place. She walks through HIS stories, she has most of HIS supporting cast, she fights HIS villains... she's still just an accessory, "Superman with a skirt", even in her best portrayal. Whereas Matrix/Linda almost never fought Superman's villains, she had her own, mostly. There was the whole Silver Banshee thing towards the middle of the series, I think - going from memory here - but otherwise the villains and supporting cast were all unique to her. I really liked that.

Matrix/Linda felt like evolution, Kara feels like moving backwards for the sake of "simplicity". That's how I see it, anyway. Obviously nobody has to agree, but to this day I'm far more emotionally moved by the Peter David series than anything anyone else ever did with the character. But then, he's generally pretty good. :)

[myconius]

in an interview about DC's Scooby-Doo comic years ago, DiDio was so gleeful as he blurted out that the (then) upcoming issue was going to kill-off Freddy.

as if this was going to somehow DRUM UP sales. :roll:

[ZariusTwo]

Didio will have his say at London Film and Comic Con

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2020/03/05/dan-didio-to-be-a-featured-guest-at-london-film-and-comic-con-2020-same-weekend-as-san-diego/

[myconius]

Didio will have his say at London Film and Comic Con

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2020/03/05/dan-didio-to-be-a-featured-guest-at-london-film-and-comic-con-2020-same-weekend-as-san-diego/

'DiDio yells at cloud'

https://media.tenor.com/images/f88700a975e4139be55cb933e05f64d7/tenor.gif

[MikeandRaph87]

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2020/03/05/jim-lee-not-ageing-up-characters-or-shuffling-them-off-for-5g/
Jim insist that the characters will not be aged up and pushed out. Looks like a line of books in what DC is stating is the future at the moment.

Also, Lee mentions names I never heard of Hank Kanalz, Bob Harras, Courtney Simmons and Jake Hogan. I heard of Harras, but no nothing about him. None of them are actual writers or artist are they?

[Andrew NDB]

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2020/03/05/jim-lee-not-ageing-up-characters-or-shuffling-them-off-for-5g/
Jim insist that the characters will not be aged up and pushed out. Looks like a line of books in what DC is stating is the future at the moment.

Also, Lee mentions names I never heard of Hank Kanalz, Bob Harras, Courtney Simmons and Jake Hogan. I heard of Harras, but no nothing about him. None of them are actual writers or artist are they?

Hank Kanalz was in charge of Wildstorm went it went under, also Vertigo when it went under. No idea who Courtney Simmons is... a Google search just turns up some attorney. No idea who Jake Simmons is, either. A Google search reveals him to be a former villain on Arrow, "Deathbolt."

[myconius]

Hank Kanalz was in charge of Wildstorm went it went under, also Vertigo when it went under. No idea who Courtney Simmons is... a Google search just turns up some attorney. No idea who Jake Simmons is, either. A Google search reveals him to be a former villain on Arrow, "Deathbolt."

https://media.giphy.com/media/aYLdW9kUEu8bC/giphy.gif

[MikeandRaph87]

It appears Jim is referring to executives who not have anything to do with creative. When referring to experienced people I think of the creators themselves not marketing executive or trade paper back editor company legal adviser,etc.

I always felt that Linda Danvers was just gaining more to her character when she was sacrificed to make Clark the sole Kryptonian. I own all of her and Batgirl's team ups and have a trade of the short lived Daring Adventures. We don't need Clark, Linda, Zod,his two stooges, possibly a son with his female stooge/wife, Streaky, Krypto, Kandor, and more. I do like her also being a surviving Kryptonian as well as Zod. I also like the innovation of Brainiac being from Krypton opposed to Colu. I think that is all that is necessary. This current Kara, Kryptonian cousin is not the same level of effectiveness. The tool of Darksied and tutoring by Wonder Woman did not go anyway.

[Leo656]

I'm iffy about Brainiac's origins. I guess having him be from Krypton doesn't hurt anything, but what was wrong with Colu? Again, that was well-established for many years. Not all roads need to lead back to Krypton, in my personal opinion. Kinda makes things feel too "small" when they're so intimately connected. In the end, I guess it doesn't really matter where Brainiac is from, other than, Colu is still kind of a big deal in-universe, except if Brainiac isn't from there, there's kind of no reason for Colu to even exist in the DCU at all, since it was specifically created to be his homeworld. That'd be like if some writer decided that Hawkman wasn't from Thanagar, he was from, I'unno, Mars or something... but Thanagar was still a thing. Why would it still be a thing if it was only created to be the homeworld for that specific character, who now isn't from there anymore? If Superman came from Mars, would we still even need Krypton for a plot device? Now it's just story clutter. I'unno.

What I did like a lot with Brainiac, though, was when Johns retconned it so that all the different iterations of him we'd ever seen before were all basically just proxies. That fixed SO many plot holes and stuff with just a couple word balloons. Like with Milton Fine's "possession" by Brainiac (and then just physically turning into him later on, which was kind of batsh*t nonsense at the time - why is this guy suddenly green now?) being explained away by nanomachines. And the fact that his physical bodies seemingly wore out so easy and often. And the whole "Dead Again" thing where he was seemingly in a coma and showing no vital signs or brain activity or whatever, yet still managed to pull off the whole "fake Superman corpse" hoax and "magically" snap out of his "coma" out of nowhere to fight Superman at the end... didn't really make a ton of sense at the time, but if he's a "probe droid" or whatever it kinda sorta makes more sense. At least a little. I always liked Brainiac, but he wasn't always done well. Johns's retcon retroactively made a lot of the earlier stories fit better, and it didn't take much. So that's one time he got major points from me.

Regarding Kryptonians, I generally prefer there only to be Superman and the three main Phantom Zone villains, since him having some kind of scuffle with them is pretty much "hard canon" in almost any universe, even if the names change (there were even "Zod"-like characters in the comics and elsewhere before General Zod was even created!). Like Zod is essential - as the "Anti-Superman" he's kind of the ultimate Superman villain, arguably - and he's a "general" so he kinda needs "soldiers", at least the first time out, after that they can die or get sent to the Zone or whatever, but there should be those three to start with. After that, I don't think you need any other Kryptonians, except maybe the Kandorians, but it's not like they should be used too much either (I'm perfectly fine with the continuities in which Kandor either gets destroyed or he simply fails to return them all to normal size). I don't think Krypto the Superdog "works" as a concept, and it's been proven that you can have a perfectly effective Superboy and Supergirl without having them be from Krypton. So I really just don't see any Kryptonians as "essential" to the larger story except for Superman and Zod; Zod's goons are what I'd call "necessary", but not essential. When I was a kid, they went through a lot of trouble to establish Superman as the only Kryptonian while still managing to incorporate some of the other characters and concepts in a familiar and satisfying way, and I really enjoyed it. Taking it all back, no matter the reason, kinda just feels like a cheat, like they wasted their time and mine with those stories.

Oddly enough, though, one of my favorite Superman mini-series was The Phantom Zone, where Superman and Quex-Ul get trapped in the Zone while all of the many Zone villains were set free on Earth and started running amok and killing people. That was some bad-ass sh*t. In defense of my seeming hypocrisy in this, it was a Silver Age/Pre-Crisis story, in which the status quo of there being many survivors of Krypton was established and had never been challenged or retconned, yet. It also made great use of some "deep cuts" of continuity and what was the established Kryptonian lore at the time. Steve Gerber did a masterful job with it; here's an article about it which goes into great detail, if you've never read it:
https://confessionsofasupermanfan.wordpress.com/2010/09/30/steve-gerbers-phantom-zone-miniseries/

Even though it runs against my personal preferences insofar as general Superman lore, it's a masterpiece of its era by any objective measure so I don't feel bad at all for being a huge fan of it. :) I highly recommend it, in case you couldn't tell.

[MikeandRaph87]

I'm iffy about Brainiac's origins. I guess having him be from Krypton doesn't hurt anything, but what was wrong with Colu? Again, that was well-established for many years. Not all roads need to lead back to Krypton, in my personal opinion.

What I did like a lot with Brainiac, though, was when Johns retconned it so that all the different iterations of him we'd ever seen before were all basically just proxies. That fixed SO many plot holes and stuff with just a couple word balloons. Like with Milton Fine's "possession" by Brainiac (and then just physically turning into him later on, which was kind of batsh*t nonsense at the time - why is this guy suddenly green now?) being explained away by nanomachines. And the fact that his physical bodies seemingly wore out so easy and often. And the whole "Dead Again" thing where he was seemingly in a coma and showing no vital signs or brain activity or whatever, yet still managed to pull off the whole "fake Superman corpse" hoax and "magically" snap out of his "coma" out of nowhere to fight Superman at the end... didn't really make a ton of sense at the time, but if he's a "probe droid" or whatever it kinda sorta makes more sense. At least a little. I always liked Brainiac, but he wasn't always done well. Johns's retcon retroactively made a lot of the earlier stories fit better, and it didn't take much. So that's one time he got major points from me.

Oddly enough, though, one of my favorite Superman mini-series was The Phantom Zone, where Superman and Quex-Ul get trapped in the Zone while all of the many Zone villains were set free on Earth and started running amok and killing people. That was some bad-ass sh*t. In defense of my seeming hypocrisy in this, it was a Silver Age/Pre-Crisis story, in which the status quo of there being many survivors of Krypton was established and had never been challenged or retconned, yet. It also made great use of some "deep cuts" of continuity and what was the established Kryptonian lore at the time. Steve Gerber did a masterful job with it; here's an article about it which goes into great detail, if you've never read it:
https://confessionsofasupermanfan.wordpress.com/2010/09/30/steve-gerbers-phantom-zone-miniseries/

Even though it runs against my personal preferences insofar as general Superman lore, it's a masterpiece of its era by any objective measure so I don't feel bad at all for being a huge fan of it. :) I highly recommend it, in case you couldn't tell.

You are more into Superman than I ever well be. An appreciator who likes to read him in Justice League. There is nothing wrong at all about Brainiac being from Colu. Its just making him of Kryptonian origin gives him a more perosnal connection to Superman, the way retconning Harvey Dent into being an inspiration and crusader in Gotham, a friend of Bruce Wayne, before the incident that brought out his scarred inside.

That was innovative of Johns bringing the different designs of Brainiac from his '58-83 design,'83-88, Dox,etc. Same with making sense of the jester Toyman and Chuckie-esque Toyman.

While I see it is important for Zod to nix the idea of Clark being the only Kryptonian to have an anti-Superman. Okay so, Bizarro is technically that, but one from Krypton and has different ideals. As for leading an army, I can see that. Its just do they have to be Kryptonian? Maybe he can mourn his troops or attempt to take Sodom Yat's race as a mind controlled army or try to recreate the Krpytonian race and have them take over the planet. Just some ideas.

So for me Clark and Linda both settling on Earth as heroes from Krypton, Zod as the antitheses of Krypton's memory and Brainiac having origins on Kryton works. Just one individual opinion. I just thought if Supergirl is brought back as Superman's blood cousin, than why not restore Linda Danvers? I would have liked to have seen her interact with the Titans.

[Leo656]

For Brainiac's part, he's a machine; why would he need a personal connection (or feud) with anyone? For Superman's part, Brainiac stole Kandor, so the beef is already plenty personal on his end no matter where Brainiac's from.

I don't know. It was first retconned for the cartoon show as a way to simplify things, and it made sense, but I don't think it adds much. Like it's kinda nice to have a definitive explanation as to why Krypton exploded, and having Brainiac be the reason definitely ups the stakes a little bit in having him clash with Kal-El, but at the same time, I kinda prefer it when Krypton's destruction was a simple, tragic "act of God" or act of nature or whatever you wanna call it, and not just one more thing that Superman later gets to punch someone in the face over. The great drama of Superman stories is always in that he can't just punch out most of his problems even though he punches the hardest out of anyone. To me, it kinda cheapens Krypton's destruction if it becomes something Superman can physically retaliate against; the tragedy of it is that he couldn't, and can't, ever do anything about it, but if he can go beat up Brainiac and thus feel better for a minute about his planet being dead, well... I don't know, just seems cheap. It shouldn't be a "revenge" type deal, at least in my estimation.

Like, I don't think every bad thing that happens in these stories needs a face and a villain attached to it, y'know? By the same token, when Johns retconned Brainiac, in the same story he essentially had him kill Pa Kent. And that just felt lame. I'm not a huge fan of killing Clark's adopted parents off anyway, but I especially don't like it when it's as contrived as "Act Of Super-Villain". Not everything needs to be so small or connected. In another story Johns wrote, they died in a car accident, and that's fine. Back in 1992 they teased Jonathan dying of a heart attack; that's also fine. Having one of them die during Superman's fight with Brainiac or some other villain feels too much like a cartoon. I don't know. It just doesn't feel "right", just like having Krypton be destroyed because someone literally blew it up doesn't feel quite "right".

I mean, I guess everyone has their own opinion, and that's the whole reason these things get so many retcons in the first place. :lol:

Regarding Zod, why would anyone who's not from Krypton even follow him? He's a well-established lunatic; the only reason Faora/Ursa/Non/Quex-Ul/Your Name Here ever went along with him was out of their pre-established loyalty having served under him on Krypton, along with the fact that they're just as nuts as he is. He's also a xenophobe who treats anyone as inferior who isn't from Krypton, so he wouldn't even want any sidekicks who weren't from there. So yeah, his lackeys, should they exist, have to be from Krypton too. But like I said, I'm fine if they get killed off or scuttled early on. Zod's one of those Alpha-level threats that shouldn't be used too often, anyway. The problem with the "good" villains is, writers can't resist using them too often and then they're not special anymore.

[Lord Nightwalker]

I'm not interested in any of the Gen five concepts that are flying around out there. I have some issues with it. For instance, in the case of Batman. Ever since they put it out there that " anyone can be Batman" there's been this false notion about that statement. Bruce Wayne IS Batman. His knowledge. His Skill. His will. His Drive and focus. His ability. His anguish. His joys. HIS. Anyone else in that suit is playing dress up. Unless he himself passes the torch, they can get bent. And it had better make God damned sense. It's like saying anyone can be Sherlock Holmes. Same deal with Clark Kent. He IS Superman. Unless he passes on the torch....

[MikeandRaph87]

I'm not interested in any of the Gen five concepts that are flying around out there. I have some issues with it. For instance, in the case of Batman. Ever since they put it out there that " anyone can be Batman" there's been this false notion about that statement. Bruce Wayne IS Batman. His knowledge. His Skill. His will. His Drive and focus. His ability. His anguish. His joys. HIS. Anyone else in that suit is playing dress up. Unless he himself passes the torch, they can get bent. And it had better make God damned sense. It's like saying anyone can be Sherlock Holmes. Same deal with Clark Kent. He IS Superman. Unless he passes on the torch....

Exactly. Also the Sherlock Holmes example is a good comparison because he actually has a successor built in who would make the mantle his own and make perfect sense. Dr. John Watson. Dick Grayson proved this with Prodigal and defined it with Life After Death.

I don't understand why heroes can't be married and can't be happy at the expense of the mission. Didio and Quesada are wrong about that,but what do I know I am just a fan.

Why was there not enough creators standing up to the New 52 and reader frenzy enough to shrink the effects like with 5G?


Funny enough when looking for more information on Didio and 5G Kevin Eastman's name popped up. I did not know he was still involved with Heavy Metal, then again the magazine has never been on my radar. Eastman apparently didn't know that he was no longer involved with the magazine either.
https://www.bleedingcool.com/2020/03/05/kevin-eastman-no-longer-publisher-heavy-metal-magazine/

[King Kahn]

Didio LOVED comics but he was also the problem.

He harbored toxic people in the industry and kept old tropes and ideas alive.

Hopefully they don't put a bean counter in place of him and maybe someone with newer, younger ideas.

[MikeandRaph87]

He harbored toxic people in the industry and kept old tropes and ideas alive.

I thought he himsrlf was the toxic person? There was that editor Berganza*that was not known by fans at large who was a sexual harasser, but I don't know of others.

Old tropes and ideas? No marriages and heroes much sacrifice happiness because their personal misery drives them to save lives?

[Andrew NDB]

Oh, I know all about Eddie Berganza. He stole two chicks away from me, too.

[King Kahn]

I thought he himsrlf was the toxic person? There was that editor Berganza*that was not known by fans at large who was a sexual harasser, but I don't know of others.

Old tropes and ideas? No marriages and heroes much sacrifice happiness because their personal misery drives them to save lives?

Yeah. He was a bit toxic too but it was more so harboring a culture of toxicity.

Yeah. Old tropes. He def didn’t like sidekicks because it “aged” the heroes. He tried at every turn to kill them off. Especially ones like nightwing, Wally west etc. he refused to reboot allllll the comics when they did the whole rebirth thing. They kept the green lantern and Batman continuity since these two properties were selling which led to convoluted backstories and plot devices to explain things thereby negating what they were trying to do by rebooting things.

[ZariusTwo]

DC knows what they did to Jon all too well

https://mlpnk72yciwc.i.optimole.com/cqhiHA-j4H6mwl2/w:600/h:826/q:90/https://www.bleedingcool.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/robin-80th-6.jpg

[PizzaPower1985]

Haven't read the whole thread yet, but I doubt it's been mentioned... When Jenette Kahn left DC the company has largely changed and morphed into a mutant/plant-monster hybrid of its former self. Paul Levitz stepping down and basically getting out means that DC is no longer DC.

DiDio KNEW almost nothing about DC Continuity and whoever it was that kept blocking Mark Waid from writing Supermaan... I dunno but I blame DiDio.

I have a close personal friend/relative that wrote nasty, dirty, filthy, hateful letters to DC when Levitz stepped down. But truthfully, since Jenette left, my heart has been broken BECAUSE SHE RESPECTED MY CHARACTERS. SHE ACTUALLY LOVED AND NURTURED THEM. Basically? F*CK DiDio.

Now, that said...

IF (with a gun to my head) I had to praise him, I would say this...

"Thanks Dan, for letting Paul Dini write Detective Comics. He gave us one of the best runs on 'Tec in recent memory. Good decision."

But alas, he also let Morrison destroy Bruce's legend in the Batman title and I haven't read a new DC Comic since Damian was introduced in main canon so... I guess my thanks is kinda half-hearted.

[Leo656]

Mark Waid is a very good Flash writer but not a very good Superman writer. Even his best story containing Superman - "Kingdom Come" - has a plot that only comes to pass because Superman's kind of not too bright in it. Or at least suffers from tunnel-vision and lack of foresight. Great story, but there's reasons it should never be canon.

"Birthright" was plenty. I don't think I'd like Waid on a Superman ongoing. Not every writer is great at everything.

[AquaParade]

What? Morrison's Batman is the greatest modern mainstream superhero comic, imo.

[Leo656]

Ehhhh I don't think I'd go THAT far. Then again, I don't keep up like I used to.

Grant's stuff is an acquired taste. I like that he thinks "big", but he has a terrible time in putting his own LSD-soaked ideas out there in ways that make sense to casual readers and people who are less-inclined to read Continuity Porn.

Big fan, generally speaking, but Grant's one of those writers that whenever people say they don't like him, I completely get their reasoning even though I don't agree with it.

I haven't read any Batman since "Flashpoint", myself, but at first I seriously did not like his "Black Glove"/"R.I.P" run... then I re-read it in one long shot and found it absolutely brilliant. But as it was coming out, I thought the guy had lost his mind and that the stories were awful. And reading them monthly, it WAS a chore... but that's kind of how a lot of his work is.

"Final Crisis", same thing - although some of that had a ton to do with DC not telling everyone they HAD to read "Superman Beyond" for the main mini to make sense - week-by-week, it's a confusing, over-cooked, masturbatory mess. But if you take two hours and read the entire thing in bulk, it's... kinda SOME of that, still, but you can recognize the poetry in what he was trying to do. I think it's brilliant, but there's no middle ground at all on it, it's either Awesome of Garbage to most people.

So yeah, I'unno. I generally love Grant's stuff BUT I also don't think he's half as clever as he thinks he is. So when people say they can't stand him, I sigh, but I understand.

[PizzaPower1985]

Mark Waid is a very good Flash writer but not a very good Superman writer. Even his best story containing Superman - "Kingdom Come" - has a plot that only comes to pass because Superman's kind of not too bright in it. Or at least suffers from tunnel-vision and lack of foresight. Great story, but there's reasons it should never be canon.

"Birthright" was plenty. I don't think I'd like Waid on a Superman ongoing. Not every writer is great at everything.

Oh, I'm not really that keen on a Waid Superman ongoing... but it would have been interesting to see what he'd do. I think, especially after he lobbied them very hard, Waid should have at least been given a chance.

But I suspect whatever he wrote would pale in comparison to Byrne/Stern and whatever came out when Carlin edited the franchise.

[Leo656]

Wasn't Waid one of the guys who did the Big Pitch in 2000 or so, where Brainiac had hypnotized everyone and so that would facilitate a big reboot, where Lois would forget her entire relationship with Clark, most of everything post-'86 would be "forgotten" by everyone except Clark himself, and thus there'd be a big blank slate to "start over" on?

I hated that. They'd just done "Brainiac hypnotized everyone" a couple of years earlier with "Dead Again" and most people agreed that the entire idea was hokey and nonsensical on its face. Doing the same thing, just on a much larger and messier scale, would have been lame and they weren't in need of a reboot, anyway.

Although I'm not *sure* that was Waid, I'm just going from memory. And unless I'm mistaken Morrison might've had his fingers in that as well. Anyways, whoever's idea that was, it was lame. Reeked of arrogance and "I hated Byrne's reboot, I can do better" type stuff.

[PizzaPower1985]

What? Morrison's Batman is the greatest modern mainstream superhero comic, imo.

How "modern" are we talking here? And be careful, you're talking to a 34 year old fogey that has little respect in DC (or Marvel) for much past the year 1991.

Of course it's completely subjective BUT...
I think if we're talking "greatest" in modern it has to go to someone who knows Batman on a very personal level. Paul Dini grew up with Batman and got inside his head. And to top it off, his stories were mostly done-in-one detective yarns, the way Alan Grant and Normie Breyfogle (RIP) used to do. Dini became Bruce when he wrote him.

Morrison just read through a bunch of history and checked off all of the "WTF" boxes. Zebra Batman? Check. Zur-in-Ar? Check! Oh wait, Batman had a kid with Talia? Check! His run was like an yellow LSD-induced fever dream that proved that the Silver Age should rarely be touched in Batman history. And I don't think he wrote any done-in-one detective yarns in his entire run?
He's not the worst Batman writer ever? That probably goes to Robert Kaniger in the 50's BUT he's not the best.

[Leo656]

Ehhhh that's not all entirely fair but I respect your experience. :lol:

I will say though that Grant's Batman stuff plays great when you're full of coffee and sleep-deprived. :lol: But no, I guess it's not for everyone.

[PizzaPower1985]

Wasn't Waid one of the guys who did the Big Pitch in 2000 or so, where Brainiac had hypnotized everyone and so that would facilitate a big reboot, where Lois would forget her entire relationship with Clark, most of everything post-'86 would be "forgotten" by everyone except Clark himself, and thus there'd be a big blank slate to "start over" on?

I hated that. They'd just done "Brainiac hypnotized everyone" a couple of years earlier with "Dead Again" and most people agreed that the entire idea was hokey and nonsensical on its face. Doing the same thing, just on a much larger and messier scale, would have been lame and they weren't in need of a reboot, anyway.

Although I'm not *sure* that was Waid, I'm just going from memory. And unless I'm mistaken Morrison might've had his fingers in that as well. Anyways, whoever's idea that was, it was lame. Reeked of arrogance and "I hated Byrne's reboot, I can do better" type stuff.

You're right. Waid on Supes would have been bad. I completely forgot that he has a hard on for the Silver Age and that he HATED Byrne's run. The other guy responsible for the BIG PITCH in 2000 was Morrison, who wrote the EXCELLENT All-Star series (love that because it's OUT OF CONTINUITY). But Morrison isn't that great with Superman otherwise. Imagine Waid and Morrison bouncing kookie, zaney, Silver Age fever dream ideas back and forth. That's NOT a Superman run I'd ever wanna read.

[Leo656]

Yeah, I like All-Star alright but it's best served out of continuity. Too "zany", although its heart is in the right place.

I come to find that if you force people to be honest, those who say "All-Star" is the best Superman story they've ever read, it's also usually the ONLY one they've ever read. :lol: It's Fine but it's soooooo Silver Age Goofy, and if you're like me and consider that "the dark ages" then it has a little less appeal. I do enjoy it, though.

I loved how Superman was presented in "Final Crisis" but I'm kind of a mark for any "Superman is what everything comes from, he's the most important thing in the universe" stories and that's what that ended up being so I'm a little bit biased.

Like when he carves his own "epitaph" and it says, "To Be Continued..." That was great. So yeah, I think there are a lot of great writers who do great work but require oversight. Morrison and Waid both count. Love Waid's Flash, just LOVE it. More tepid about his Superman.

[PizzaPower1985]

Yeah, I like All-Star alright but it's best served out of continuity. Too "zany", although its heart is in the right place.

I come to find that if you force people to be honest, those who say "All-Star" is the best Superman story they've ever read, it's also usually the ONLY one they've ever read. :lol: It's Fine but it's soooooo Silver Age Goofy, and if you're like me and consider that "the dark ages" then it has a little less appeal. I do enjoy it, though.

I loved how Superman was presented in "Final Crisis" but I'm kind of a mark for any "Superman is what everything comes from, he's the most important thing in the universe" stories and that's what that ended up being so I'm a little bit biased.

Like when he carves his own "epitaph" and it says, "To Be Continued..." That was great. So yeah, I think there are a lot of great writers who do great work but require oversight. Morrison and Waid both count. Love Waid's Flash, just LOVE it. More tepid about his Superman.

We do agree an awful lot. If you were in my town, I'd buy you a round and we could totally shoot the $hit on comics.

[Leo656]

I'd dig that.

If you wanna hear me shoot the sh*t on rasslin' in the meantime, check out Coola's newest Diving Cutter Podcast! I might do a pop-in to talk about comics and/or toys in the future, so that might be the next best thing to actually getting together. :tcool:

I can talk with you because even though we don't always agree it's always civil and that's awesome.

[MikeandRaph87]

I'd dig that.

If you wanna hear me shoot the sh*t on rasslin' in the meantime, check out Coola's newest Diving Cutter Podcast! I might do a pop-in to talk about comics and/or toys in the future, so that might be the next best thing to actually getting together. :tcool:

I can talk with you because even though we don't always agree it's always civil and that's awesome.

Just remember In Denny we Trust and Didio is the worst comic executive to ever breathe.


We would make a pretty good stable. How about The Bronze?Okay, maybe not.

[AquaParade]

Ehhhh I don't think I'd go THAT far. Then again, I don't keep up like I used to.

Grant's stuff is an acquired taste. I like that he thinks "big", but he has a terrible time in putting his own LSD-soaked ideas out there in ways that make sense to casual readers and people who are less-inclined to read Continuity Porn.

Big fan, generally speaking, but Grant's one of those writers that whenever people say they don't like him, I completely get their reasoning even though I don't agree with it.

I haven't read any Batman since "Flashpoint", myself, but at first I seriously did not like his "Black Glove"/"R.I.P" run... then I re-read it in one long shot and found it absolutely brilliant. But as it was coming out, I thought the guy had lost his mind and that the stories were awful. And reading them monthly, it WAS a chore... but that's kind of how a lot of his work is.

"Final Crisis", same thing - although some of that had a ton to do with DC not telling everyone they HAD to read "Superman Beyond" for the main mini to make sense - week-by-week, it's a confusing, over-cooked, masturbatory mess. But if you take two hours and read the entire thing in bulk, it's... kinda SOME of that, still, but you can recognize the poetry in what he was trying to do. I think it's brilliant, but there's no middle ground at all on it, it's either Awesome of Garbage to most people.

So yeah, I'unno. I generally love Grant's stuff BUT I also don't think he's half as clever as he thinks he is. So when people say they can't stand him, I sigh, but I understand.

Yeah, I agree. I wouldn't really argue anything for "best of" in reality, but it's certainly my favorite modern run in comics.
It definitely took some time for me to appreciate fully as well.

How "modern" are we talking here? And be careful, you're talking to a 34 year old fogey that has little respect in DC (or Marvel) for much past the year 1991.

Of course it's completely subjective BUT...
I think if we're talking "greatest" in modern it has to go to someone who knows Batman on a very personal level. Paul Dini grew up with Batman and got inside his head. And to top it off, his stories were mostly done-in-one detective yarns, the way Alan Grant and Normie Breyfogle (RIP) used to do. Dini became Bruce when he wrote him.

Morrison just read through a bunch of history and checked off all of the "WTF" boxes. Zebra Batman? Check. Zur-in-Ar? Check! Oh wait, Batman had a kid with Talia? Check! His run was like an yellow LSD-induced fever dream that proved that the Silver Age should rarely be touched in Batman history. And I don't think he wrote any done-in-one detective yarns in his entire run?
He's not the worst Batman writer ever? That probably goes to Robert Kaniger in the 50's BUT he's not the best.

Yeah, I'm talking out my ass when I say anything is "the best", but fair of you to ask.

I personally enjoyed the way Morrison incorporated so much of Batman's history into his run. Ambitious, mind-bending, complex tapestries are somewhat what Grant is known for, but that's not my favorite thing about his Batman run or his comics in general. I mean, that's part of it, but it sort of overshadows just how good Grant is at the other stuff. Grant's books are always filled with stunning emotional beats and kick-ass "fist-pumping" moments. The Batman run is full of these.

[Leo656]

Every time I get a stable the company runs out of money and shuts down. :lol: I'm bad luck, apparently.

[Leo656]

Yeah, I agree. I wouldn't really argue anything for "best of" in reality, but it's certainly my favorite modern run in comics.
It definitely took some time for me to appreciate fully as well.

It REALLY struck me when I re-read it all in one shot. I was reading it as it came out weekly and was really annoyed by it. But on the second pass, all in one day, it was like "...Ooooooohhhhhhhhh, okay," and it totally clicked, and now I love it. But a ton of it makes WAY more sense when you know what to look for, as well, so a second pass is almost mandatory.

I liked the first few issues of "Batman and Robin", except I didn't care for the flying Batmobile. And I really wish it had been Dick and Tim instead of Dick and Damien. Dick and Tim had always had such a great brotherly dynamic, and although one could argue that Tim had even outgrown the "need" for being Batman's sidekick by that point, it would have been fun to see them together with Dick in the proper Batman role. So I felt a little gypped by that but I did like the first few issues of the book. His take on Jason was... interesting.

[MikeandRaph87]

Every time I get a stable the company runs out of money and shuts down. :lol: I'm bad luck, apparently.

I am DC, I wear blue and black, spout puns, and am a high flyer. You are the muscle and are called The Image and Pizza Power thinks through strategy in techniques and marketing, good at getting people going. He calls himself Mr. Marvelous.

I have many thoughts on the 2006-2011 period. Of the time since I started reading at the start of 2002 it's my favorite period easily,though it is far from perfect. Dick's tenure as Batman was cut short with the unnecessary New 52. I left thoughts on Jason and Damien in the DC thread. Though it may not be nice for those who are fans of them.

[Leo656]

I'm gonna have to flex my Creative Control card on this one, brother. :lol:

[PizzaPower1985]

I am DC, I wear blue and black, spout puns, and am a high flyer. You are the muscle and are called The Image and Pizza Power thinks through strategy in techniques and marketing, good at getting people going. He calls himself Mr. Marvelous.

I have many thoughts on the 2006-2011 period. Of the time since I started reading at the start of 2002 it's my favorite period easily,though it is far from perfect. Dick's tenure as Batman was cut short with the unnecessary New 52. I left thoughts on Jason and Damien in the DC thread. Though it may not be nice for those who are fans of them.

My favorite things to come out of INFINITE CRISIS were the One Year Later stories for Supes and Bats. Most people see these as average or mediocre. I fell in love.

Up Up and Away and Face the Face were both incredibly written and wonderfully drawn stories.

Kent dealing with conflict while temporarily powerless was inspired.
Bruce and Tim returning to Gotham a year later, having left a reformed, non-scarred Harvey Dent in charge was a great plot. Leonard Kirk and Don Kramer's art blew me away. The deaths of Scarface and KGBeast were fun. It was the debut of Tim's new costume.

Just wonderful stuff. Best Batman story James Robinson ever wrote.