Strange choices

[neatoman]

Remember how the writers established that retromutagen was hard to make in order to prevent every mutant from getting cured? Remember how later on the Kraang caused all of New York to mutate into Utrom-like monster slaves? The way they resolved this was by having Mike randomly dick around with chemicals and coming by a solution for instant retromutagen, one he couldn't recreate because it was carelessly slapped together.

While it technically does the job in both solving the problem while also keeping the desired status quo, it does seem kind of lazy to handwave away this development with "the idiot did it by accident", doesn't it?

Anyway, noticed any other strange choices when it came to writing?

[IndigoErth]

Definitely the choice that the mutagen can affect non-living things like the car... I like the demon car, but it was a bit of a stretch.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

My personal biggest pet peeve was with how Karai's mutation was handled.

Karai losing her mind was made such a big deal out of, and then she is suddenly turned back into a human off-screen.

What's even more confusing is that when Karai is cured, she still can summon her snake powers at will.

The whole thing seems a bit too arbitrary to me, I would've liked it one way or another (either keep her fully mutant or fully human, but not both).

[LeotheLateBloomer]

Was she ever cured? I can't remember, it's been so long.

[neatoman]

Was she ever cured? I can't remember, it's been so long.

Not exactly, Baxter fixes her mind but she never got cured in a strict sense. She could however, as stated before, take on a perfectly human appearence and use her snake form whenever she wanted to. Essentially better than a cure.

[CyberCubed]

She still turned into a snake during some fight scenes in the last season, if I'm remembering right. So she was never completely de-mutated although she was in human form when she wanted to be.

[victory_angel]

Also how the Retromutagen doesn't always work. This was also meant to show that the Retromutagen wasn't always a go-to option that solves every mutated issue. I mean in Serpent Hunt, Donnie did emphasize that his retromutagen may not work on Karai because her mutation was different from other mutations.

But after the Shredder was mutated into Super Shredder you would think there would be more emphasis on finding ways of making in work. Instead, Donnie just throws a bottle of retromutagen at the Shredder, and the Shredder is trying to wipe it off as if saying "Eww, what did you just throw at me." But altogether it does nothing.



Also how they emphasized that the Fugitoid is a pacifist, but then forget that angle by having him causally vaporize Triceraton's in later episodes.

I mean yeah, pacifists do prefer non-violent resolutions to conflicts. But are aware that not everything is going to follow the least violent outcome, even then they more often resort to hobbling or incapacitating an opponent vrs. outright killing them. It's like the writers didn't even know what it means to be a pacifist.

[The Great Saiyaman]

Not exactly, Baxter fixes her mind but she never got cured in a strict sense. She could however, as stated before, take on a perfectly human appearence and use her snake form whenever she wanted to. Essentially better than a cure.

I wouldn't say it's better than a cure because there's a very good reason why she uses her snake form as a last resort move. She basically goes feral when she mutates and then there's also the pain involved in her mutation itself. You can see it in "City at war" when she transforms to help Leo fight Tiger Claw, she's seen convulsing and making noises as if she's about to retch.

[PApagreg]

Remember how the writers established that retromutagen was hard to make in order to prevent every mutant from getting cured? Remember how later on the Kraang caused all of New York to mutate into Utrom-like monster slaves? The way they resolved this was by having Mike randomly dick around with chemicals and coming by a solution for instant retromutagen, one he couldn't recreate because it was carelessly slapped together.

While it technically does the job in both solving the problem while also keeping the desired status quo, it does seem kind of lazy to handwave away this development with "the idiot did it by accident", doesn't it?

Anyway, noticed any other strange choices when it came to writing?


Yeah this show has a ton of writing problems for example remember how this show is super anti revenge but at the end of season 4 the turtles waned to avenge Splinter's death.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Yeah this show has a ton of writing problems for example remember how this show is super anti revenge but at the end of season 4 the turtles waned to avenge Splinter's death.

I guess you can get away with it by using the term "restore honour" instead.

[victory_angel]

Yeah this show has a ton of writing problems for example remember how this show is super anti revenge but at the end of season 4 the turtles waned to avenge Splinter's death.

The large problem is that they had so many writers and each of them had episodes in various forms of production so they couldn’t always verify what was happening in one episode and how it connects with another.

Also the fact Nieli wanted an episodic series rather then a serialized plot didn’t help either.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Yeah this show has a ton of writing problems for example remember how this show is super anti revenge but at the end of season 4 the turtles waned to avenge Splinter's death.

For the last 2 episodes of season 4 in particular, it could be argued that the turtles invaded Shredder's compound as a pre-emptive strike rather than out of revenge.

[snake]

Lots. The writing essentially went to sh*t after season 1, with small moments of greatness in between.

The April subplot that went nowhere, Karai's mutation, season 2 in general, the Kraang/Foot alliance, Casey being mentally challenged, ect.

It's a real shame, because season 1 was top quality TMNT entertainment, and quite a few later episodes were worth watching as well. At least the finale was decent.

[TigerClaw]

This show had a lot of strange choices on how they dealt with some of the characters. And never going back to them.

For example. They never resolved the thing with Mutagen Man. Donnie was supposed to find a way to turn Mutagen Man back into Timmy. They had episodes that dealt with the Retromutagen and they never to bothered testing it on Mutagen Man.

There were character on this show we never get to hear from again. a complete miss opportunity to bring them back in the 5th season.

Also what is the deal with Pigeon Pete? The last time we saw the Mutanimals. They said we don't talk about Pigeon Pete. Like something happened to him? and they don't address that either.

You can blame it all on the writing.

[The Great Saiyaman]

If I were a writer on the show, one thing I would have written in would be in the "Undead shredder" arc.

I can just see how it went.
Raph: Xever, before you go.
Xever: Que Pasa?
Raph snatches something from Donnie's belt and tosses him a vile of retro mutagen.
Donnie: HEY!
Xever: Wait, is this?
Raph: Indeed it is, consider it a thank you for helping us out! ...Calamari boy!
Xever: Gracias! ...Pond scum!

[newfan]

For the last 2 episodes of season 4 in particular, it could be argued that the turtles invaded Shredder's compound as a pre-emptive strike rather than out of revenge.

They did put an emphasis on him needing to be stopped, given the threat he had become (though he was always trying to kill them), I feel it was done in a way that there was no choice but to kill him though I wouldn't rule a degree of vengeance being there, of course they were hurting over that, all very well having your teaching and then experiencing it being close to you.

So far as April's mom, I had assumed she was dead at that time (which was later confirmed) and that maybe part of April's story was that she would never have that definite confirmation.

I didn't care about Pigeon Pete, he was just... there, only thing was I thought he had died or something when they said they don't talk about him but then you saw him at Splinter's funeral so I guess not.

I don't have too many issues with the show, I felt once or twice they had a character act out of character to fit a story, can't recall specific scenes but remember feeling that just once or twice, there are a few eps I don't care about but I have that with every show.

[PApagreg]

For the last 2 episodes of season 4 in particular, it could be argued that the turtles invaded Shredder's compound as a pre-emptive strike rather than out of revenge.

That idea always irked me because Karai already did a pre emptive strike against Shredder in Broken Foot but was lectured by Splinter on how "vengeance is bad and you should be with family" yeah Splinter how are you spending time with your family now since you are six foot under. By the time the season 4 finale ended I wanted Karai yell "I told you so" to Leo and give April the stink eye

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

There were character on this show we never get to hear from again. a complete miss opportunity to bring them back in the 5th season.

Mutagen Man can be seen dead in the Season 5 future episodes. I think Donatello attempted to fix him, but something went horribly wrong.

[PApagreg]

While I consider season 1 to be great(I personally give it an 8.5/10) I did find Splinter's character arc in said season strange when looking back. Don't get me wrong the idea of him overcoming his fear of going up against the Shredder and being on the frontlines is a good one but it felt like it came out of nowhere in the season finale and worse off it was April who started the conversation. I dunno maybe have the turtles question why Splinter isn't with them(preferably in Panic in the Sewers) and instead having April call him a coward have one of his sons call him that(preferably Mikey). Rise funny enough does this plot point much better with Splinter's development becoming an arc that lasts through the entire season.

[victory_angel]

For the last 2 episodes of season 4 in particular, it could be argued that the turtles invaded Shredder's compound as a pre-emptive strike rather than out of revenge.

I would agree with this. While avenging Splinter was part of their motivation. Their main motive for taking out the Shredder was had made himself into a threat that wouldn't be stopped with anything but death. All throughout the series, the Shredder has been given opportunities and outs where he could realize that everything he does only destroys his honor further. But he is too blinded by his anger and his hubris to see what he was really doing. The only time he really does question himself was when Leo yells. "You've become a monster, a demon! Was this your destiny?"


As Shinigami said he would not be stopped until they were all dead.

The thing with vengeance it only hurts those around you. It eats away at you even once you have achieved what you believe is attribution for the wrongs in your life.

With the Shredder his family was a rival Ninja Clan, the Hamato Clan attacked them for unspecified reasons. During the conflict, Oroku Saki was found by Hamato Yuuta (Splinter's father) and was adopted by him.

He and Yoshi were raised as brothers and as brothers, they had a rivalry that was somewhat similar to Leo and Raph's.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/tmnt/images/2/23/Tmnt222_0711.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/540?cb=20180603005401

For example, Leo takes it upon himself as the oldest to be the most dedicated of the four of them. Because he knows responsibility for his family would fall to him one day and also to be an example to his brothers of what he believes Splinter wants them to be.

Hamato Yoshi also knows the Hamato Clan and its teachings will become his responsibility so he feels he must prove himself worthy of it.

Raph, on the other hand, is rivals with Leo because all his life he's seen himself as second best. No matter what he does, Leo's done it better. So uses his aggression to prove he is more deserving of being the favorite student, which often bites him in the shell.

This would be similar to the Shredder growing up in the Hamato-Clan. While he had grown to see and love Hamato Yoshi as a brother, but for him, it always seemed that Yoshi was the favored son and that Yoshi always got the best of everything. Even the love of Tang Shen.

It was suggested that Tang Shen and Oroku Saki were in love once, but he did something that soured the relationship which leads to her choosing Yoshi as her husband. Because he had that point where he does ask her to take him back and states he is no longer the man he once was. Despite the fact Tang Shen is already married and has a child.

We don't know when Yuuta died, it was implied he was deathly ill in Tale of the Yokai. I think his last act was to tell Oroku Saki the Truth about his origins so he can enter the judgment of the underworld with one less sin upon his conscience. Only the Shredder heard it as "Bla Bla bla, you're not really my son. Bla bla bla" So in Oroku Saki's eyes, he believes that since he is not a Hamato by blood that means Yoshi is only favored because he is Yuuta's trueborn son. And that he was raised all this time by the man who killed his father.

Yuuta could have died of his illness after telling Oroku Saki the truth, or Saki could have killed him in rage. Or Yuuta could have died in the fire that burned down the Hamato Dojo, it's up to interpretation.

When he does finally succeed in killing Splinter for good, he does say he say he feels his honor being restored.

However, his goal was to destroy the Hamato Clan to avenge the Foot Clan. Hamato Yoshi was the core of the Hamato Clan. He was eliminated successfully.

But as long as Karai lives than the Hamato bloodline lives.

As long as the Turtles live the Hamato legacy lives.

and as long as allies and associations to the Turtles exist. Then the memory of the Hamato Clan lives.

So once he's killed Karai, and he has the heads of the Turtles, April, and Casey on pikes. He'll go after Shinigami, the Mutanimals, Dr. O'Neil, and anyone else who has seen or heard of the Turtles including the family dog just so anyone who would breathe the name of the Hamato Clan is dead.

Due to his mutation, he has shown he has no qualms about attempting to kill Karai. Particularly since she has shown where her allegiances stand. So it would only be a matter of time before he went after her again. And also when the Turtle's do confront him in their final battle he suggests that killing them was on his to-do list. Since he states he had expected them to run away as they did before as a futile delay of their deaths."

[PApagreg]

I would agree with this. While avenging Splinter was part of their motivation. Their main motive for taking out the Shredder was had made himself into a threat that wouldn't be stopped with anything but death. All throughout the series, the Shredder has been given opportunities and outs where he could realize that everything he does only destroys his honor further. But he is too blinded by his anger and his hubris to see what he was really doing. The only time he really does question himself was when Leo yells. "You've become a monster, a demon! Was this your destiny?"

"


Again the problem is that you can say that for Shredder in pretty much any season and by the time the turtles found out that Saki had a hand in having the Earth sucked into a black hole should've been a clue that the guy is a mad dog who needs to be put down yesterday. Funny enough Leo was the only one who knew that but instead of taking down Shredder's empire we had to be lectured on why revenge is bad. We gets to me is that it took until the end of season 4 for the clan to take a preemative strike against Shredder it wasn't when Saki made an alliance with the Krang or when he hired Tiger Claw or when he turned Karai into a mind controlled Snake monster or when he badly hurt Leo or when he made New York into a Kraang warzone or when he flat out destroyed the world.

[victory_angel]

Again the problem is that you can say that for Shredder in pretty much any season and by the time the turtles found out that Saki had a hand in having the Earth sucked into a black hole should've been a clue that the guy is a mad dog who needs to be put down yesterday. Funny enough Leo was the only one who knew that but instead of taking down Shredder's empire we had to be lectured on why revenge is bad. We gets to me is that it took until the end of season 4 for the clan to take a preemative strike against Shredder it wasn't when Saki made an alliance with the Krang or when he hired Tiger Claw or when he turned Karai into a mind controlled Snake monster or when he badly hurt Leo or when he made New York into a Kraang warzone or when he flat out destroyed the world.

The turtles already knew the Shredder was crazy and needed to be taken down, but killing is meant to be a last resort. Kinda like how in the original comic the Turtles defeat the Shredder, but give him the option to commit Seppuku so he can die with some honor. And instead, he chooses to pull out a granade and says "I may die, but I am taking you with me."

I would say after Season 2, the Shredder has shown he's beyond all hope of regaining his honor. Since he nearly killed Leo, after all the leader in blue would have bled out before Donnie or Raph could do anything to save him. While falling in Icy cold water also would have been fatal for a Turtle, Leo was running on adrenaline until he was struck down by the Shredder. The chill of the water would have caused his blood to slow down so that is the only reason he survived.


As for vengeance. There are lots of instances in media that show vengeance is justified.

But Gandhi once said, "An eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth, leaves us all blind and toothless." He meant as a means of saying that if a person seeks to violently punish their tormenters, then that person is no better then their tormentors.

Splinter's anti-vengeance argument isn't a "You can't solve violence, with violence." but rather of a cautious "You can't approach this blindly, we need to wait for our enemy to make his motives known before we act"

There is also the concept of Karma, which we do see the Shredder and those who side with him have a lot of bad karma.

The Shredder's body has been damaged via pressure points so he's essentually on life support. And he is also being injected with mutagen to rejuvenate him and give him the power and strength of a mutant.

In City at War, Splinter had encouraged her to join their side. After all, he knew she wanted to take out the Shredder, that was a goal they also wanted. Just now how she was going about it.

Karai's said herself her whole life has been hatred and revenge. That was how she was taught how to do things through the Shredder, that everything is solved with vengance. While Splinter is more pacifistic minded and wants things to begin to unfold before they start to make their own moves.

Karai just says she's going to do things her way. Splinter allows this, but reminds her there is a place for her with them when she is ready.

Leo agreed to help her because he also agreed taking out the Shredder's resources would weaken his defenses. He also knew Karai and Shinigami were taking on something that was too big for them to handle on their own. So he is making sure she doesn't get hurt or killed in her attempts go weaken the Shredder's empire.

The flaw with her plan is that the Hinch Mutants and anyone associated with the Shredder knows she wants to take out the Shredder's resources. Gradually, Tiger Claw would know where she would attempt to strike and would be prepared for her when she does. Leo was warning her that the Shredder and his forces were already aware of what she is doing and that she needs more people to help her. Which is why he suggests involving his brothers.

As Karai says, the other turtles won't involve themselves because they are loyal to Splinter. She is partially right.

Raph would be perfectly okay with disobeying Splinter, but he's not okay with putting themselves at risk just to help Karai.

Mikey would be the other side of the coin want to help Karai because she's their sister, but doesn't like the idea of disobeying Splinter.

Donnie would be more on the other side of the coin with Leo. Leo isn't involving his brothers because one he's protecting them, and two if Splinter learns of what is going on, then he is the only one being punished.

Donne like Leo also would see the merit on taking out the Shredder's resources, however, he would feel Leo should have involved them or informed them all (Splinter included) of what was going on from the start.

With Broken Foot, the other turtles noticed Leo was missing and they track him down believing that he would need their assistance. Donnie catches sight of the explosives Karai and Shinigami had planted and tries to shield his other brothers from the explosion which results in him being seriously injured.

So this the lesson of how vengeance can hurt those around you. If Donnie hadn't survived his injuries Karai would have learned that Splinter lost one of his sons because of her. And Leo would have had to live with the guilt of the blood of one of his brothers was on his hands. Or worse if Donnie hadn't noticed the explosives. Leo would have seen the party wagon and it wouldn't have taken him long to realize his brothers had been in the factory when it blew.

Donnie, of course, is able to survive, and Karai is able to see what her path of vengeance could have cost her father. However, she doesn't really learn her lesson since she escalates the issue says that she will be going after the Shredder himself.

[neatoman]

There is something I've been thinking about for the past few days. Tiger Claw is introduced as a bounty hunter Shredder hired, he's not impressed with the Foot Clan and clearly thinks Shredder has skewed priorities. And yet he's the guy who tries to bring him back to life.

The problem here is that it shouldn't be in his character to be loyal to the Shredder or the Foot. When Shredder dies he can no longer pay him, at which point he'd have no reason to stick around. In fact, if any enemies of the Foot had the coin, they should theoretically have been able to pay him off.

[newfan]

There were a couple of times TC questioned Shredder's actions but generally he seemed to hold him in high regard and so was loyal to him. Guess that developed more over time?

[Dejablue]

When it comes to revenge for Splinter it was really Us vs Them by that point. If the turtles didn't strike first I can't imagine the Shredder would just leave them alone.

[IndigoErth]

Really, why do post-apocalypse Raph and Mikey have hair/facial hair...? The designs have more detail that the main designs don't, but the addition of hair is an odd choice.

Only thing I can figure is that since such a wide area was affected by the mutagen bomb, if not the whole world, than it still should have had at least some minimal additional mutating effects on them and... I dunno, triggered dormant human DNA in them from Yoshi?? Just wish that arc would have somehow touched on an excuse reason for it, at least that they too were not entirely spared. (I mean, the blast technically killed Donnie, save for his mind ending up in a robot, so they weren't unaffected even after Leo tried to shove them all to safety and take the full impact himself.)