Should the Franchise Be Going In the Opposite Direction?

[PizzaPower1985]

Hi, I haven't been here in ages, but...

I have been thinking about TMNT a lot lately, continuing on with what Waltz, Eastman and co. at IDW have been doing, watching 2K3, watching the best of the OT, re-reading all of Mirage Vol. 1, playing the video games and watching the 3 original films.

My question is... Is TMNT being too dumbed down? Is it becoming solely a children's property or a property for younger audiences? Should it be? Or should we be getting back toward what Kevin (Eastman) and Peter (Laird) originally envisioned? This is a trend I have noticed with a lot of 30+ year old properties (they are becoming far too kid friendly for the original fans).

Most of us original TMNT fans are now in our 30's and 40's (I'm 34). Is there a point where we become too old for things like the 2012 cartoon, Rise, the Bay films etc.? Are the Waltz/Eastman comics the only recent "serious" TMNT we can get? I'm not saying it should be exactly like Mirage and every aspect should be somber, violent or serious, but does every media adaptation, film, cartoon have to be marketed DIRECTLY toward children?

Why has it become this way? Is it Nickelodeon's fault? Or am I just imagining things/too old and have lost the plot? Should I just shut up and enjoy what I have and ignore everything new?

[neatoman]

Well we are allowed some level material intended for an older target audience in the form of comics but I get what you're saying.

Some franchises don't really have a problem with making material for both children and adults. What I mean by that isn't that isn't that the material itself is acceptable for children and enjoyable for adults, what I mean is that parallel material can come out, one for adults and another for children. Here we have two different versions of DC comics characters including John Constantine, who much like TMNT he was intended for an older audience from the start:
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Now the problem with TMNT is that Viacom/Nickelodeon might not be entirely comfortable with both making a version where the turtles drink beer stab human beings while still marketing a different version to kids. It can be done, it's just up to the studio heads to accept it.

[IndigoErth]

It should absolutely focus on older audiences. Not necessarily exclusively, and I'm fine with some things that keep the vibe and the heart of what TMNT is while being a bit more family friendly -- 2012 did that rather well -- but the "just for kids" mentality, which wasn't at all true in the beginning, needs to end and it needs to steer clear of trying to become younger and younger. Nick doing "Rise" on a decision to go younger was the opposite direction I had hoped they'd go... If it was up to Nick, would a continued push to go younger someday wind them up on Nick Jr.? The Muppet Babies version of TMNT? (And good god, look how someone took that regular old cartoon and rebooted it for preschoolers.)

Thankfully, Batman vs TMNT threw a bit of a lifeline and a reminder that the TMNT isn't just for the kiddies. Between that and the amount of collectables aimed at adults that have come out in the past few years, at least some people out there get it and know full well there is an older audience and fan base that it still eager for more. And if Nick would prefer to pretend that they don't get it, then I hope they just keep allowing DC and/or others of their own under the Viacom/CBS roof, or whoever they decide to allow a license to, to do with them what they, Nick, don't want to.


Do I need them to be acting all bloody and gritty in everything? Nah. I'm fine with, say, the 2003 level and style of doing things, with the occasional grittier production thrown in the mix. But the 12-year-old behavior and tone of 'Rise' is going too far into the childish zone.

[Galactus]

Ideally it should be both for children and adults. I'll never begrudge the next generation of little tykes to have a version of TMNT to call their own complete with toys and games etc. But at the same time we should have a version of TMNT aimed at an older audience like what people are hoping The Last Ronin and the rumoured live action series will be. We too should have some swag of our own and not just nostalgia stuff for the Fred Wolf show (although I don't begrudge Fred Wolf fans from having stuff to buy either) basically all our money is as good as anyone else's they should be exploiting all of us.

Of course young people is were the big bucks are but let's be clear that the most profitable multi media franchise right now is Marvel and they like the vast majority of comic book movies are aimed young people but not little kids. In movies that's were TMNT should not the weird mix of nostalgia for 30 somethings in a package aimed at toddlers like Out Of The Shadows.

[PizzaPower1985]

Ideally it should be both for children and adults. I'll never begrudge the next generation of little tykes to have a version of TMNT to call their own complete with toys and games etc. But at the same time we should have a version of TMNT aimed at an older audience like what people are hoping The Last Ronin and the rumoured live action series will be. We too should have some swag of our own and not just nostalgia stuff for the Fred Wolf show (although I don't begrudge Fred Wolf fans from having stuff to buy either) basically all our money is as good as anyone else's they should be exploiting all of us.

Of course young people is were the big bucks are but let's be clear that the most profitable multi media franchise right now is Marvel and they like the vast majority of comic book movies are aimed young people but not little kids. In movies that's were TMNT should not the weird mix of nostalgia for 30 somethings in a package aimed at toddlers like Out Of The Shadows.


I completely agree. Yeah, I mean, in my mind the little ones have and have had their TMNT in every version that isnt the comics. I don't think there shouldn't be something for kids of all ages to latch onto, I just think we need to draw a line for things like toys and cartoons, costumes, bed sheets etc. for kids and then like there needs to be stuff that is for maturer audiences but something you wouldnt b afraid to show your 12 year old... a TV series (live-action) closer in tone to Marvel's Daredevil or Punisher show for those of us that are older fans. Also, to use toys as an example... the Necca/Hot Toys movie figures are nice and adulty for older fans while the little ones can have their 2012 figures and Rise figures. For me, the perfect blend (ALL AGES) of TMNT was the 4Kids Series. I am just old (and possibly bitter) and get dissapointed in the extreme when a new TMNT project is announced and... it's not for me. Everyone raved about the 2012 show so I tried to catch it around 2013 and watched the 1st season in its entirety and by the 3rd episode knew... THEY DIDN'T MAKE THIS FOR ME. About the only thing I can enjoy TMNT related currently is IDW comics and that's on hiatus now, so...

[PizzaPower1985]

It should absolutely focus on older audiences. Not necessarily exclusively, and I'm fine with some things that keep the vibe and the heart of what TMNT is while being a bit more family friendly -- 2012 did that rather well -- but the "just for kids" mentality, which wasn't at all true in the beginning, needs to end and it needs to steer clear of trying to become younger and younger. Nick doing "Rise" on a decision to go younger was the opposite direction I had hoped they'd go... If it was up to Nick, would a continued push to go younger someday wind them up on Nick Jr.? The Muppet Babies version of TMNT? (And good god, look how someone took that regular old cartoon and rebooted it for preschoolers.)

Thankfully, Batman vs TMNT threw a bit of a lifeline and a reminder that the TMNT isn't just for the kiddies. Between that and the amount of collectables aimed at adults that have come out in the past few years, at least some people out there get it and know full well there is an older audience and fan base that it still eager for more. And if Nick would prefer to pretend that they don't get it, then I hope they just keep allowing DC and/or others of their own under the Viacom/CBS roof, or whoever they decide to allow a license to, to do with them what they, Nick, don't want to.


Do I need them to be acting all bloody and gritty in everything? Nah. I'm fine with, say, the 2003 level and style of doing things, with the occasional grittier production thrown in the mix. But the 12-year-old behavior and tone of 'Rise' is going too far into the childish zone.

Everything you said is how I feel about TMNT in general. I just wish more fans would be vocal and not be so accepting everytime something comes out just because it's new. I was in the audience at San Diego Comic Con when Rise of TMNT was first leaked and I damn near cried. All of these people my age were cheering. I'm like "Seriously? Are you okay with this?" Fandom (it's the same with Star Wars) just seems to be so happy for new franchise material that they will accept anything that's thrown at them.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Aiming the franchise towards young children is a successful concept. Hundreds of children today grow up with the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Star Wars, Duck Tales, Mario, Masters of the Universe and Transformers. Wait, wasn't that what their parents grew up with?

Yes, it was and production companies know that. Parents are more willing to spend money on their children's home entertainment when the characters are the same as in the cartoons, comics, books, films and video games the parents grew up with.

[PizzaPower1985]

Aiming the franchise towards young children is a successful concept. Hundreds of children today grow up with the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Star Wars, Duck Tales, Mario, Masters of the Universe and Transformers. Wait, wasn't that what their parents grew up with?

Yes, it was and production companies know that. Parents are more willing to spend money on their children's home entertainment when the characters are the same as in the cartoons, comics, books, films and video games the parents grew up with.

I'm sorry but that feels like such a corporate answer. Even if your point makes sense (and it does) is TMNT just about profit? Sure, it's a billion $$$ industry by now but what about the art of it? The idea that it's mostly or should be mostly for kids just because that's what makes THEM (the evil overlords in business suits) money completely destroys all that is wonderful and holy about TMNT. Yes, it's entertainment, but how long is it truly going to last for those of us who were the original fans, if it keeps going the route it's going? I will not show my children Rise or the 2012 show. I show them the 1990 movie, the 2k3 series, the Red Sky and Pilot season of OT, stuff that doesn't treat children like they're a bunch of dumb... children. I want my kids to be stimulated, not talked down to.

[sdp]

Nickelodeon owns TMNT, it's solely a children's property now.

[Sharman]

All I can say on this is that Eastman and Laird were quite happy to have what amounted to two forms of the franchise back in the day - the edgier, grittier stuff in the original Mirage comics and the more family-friendly alternative in the cartoon/Archie comics.
Seems a win-win to me and I only hope that Nickelodeon can recognise that and not put all of their eggs into the one basket.

[ABrown]

Thankfully, Batman vs TMNT threw a bit of a lifeline and a reminder that the TMNT isn't just for the kiddies.

It's without question my favorite thing to come out of the franchise over the last 10 years.

For the record, I have absolutely no problem with the franchise putting out kid friendly media (Namely Rise). I do have a problem with it not being very good though.

[Wesley]

All I can say on this is that Eastman and Laird were quite happy to have what amounted to two forms of the franchise back in the day - the edgier, grittier stuff in the original Mirage comics and the more family-friendly alternative in the cartoon/Archie comics.
Seems a win-win to me and I only hope that Nickelodeon can recognise that and not put all of their eggs into the one basket.

Agreed. And I didn’t grow up with the 1990 movie, so that was something ‘new’ and edgy to me, as I didn’t see it until a few years ago. Never read the comics and don’t care much for the newer stuff (2012, Bay films, etc.), but the old stuff I like is still there at least.

[PizzaPower1985]

Would I be unfair in declaring anything that is kid friendly "by today's standards" to be garbage?

Let's look at history for a second... The 87 Toon (OT) was kid friendly but aspects of it can still be taken seriously and watched by adults. The 2K3 show was "ALL AGES" like BTAS or the 90's Marvel shows. Everything after 2K3 has been a disappointment. As censorship has gotten tighter as time has gone on, kids today don't seem to be allowed to be exposed to the same things we were exposed to in the late 80's/early 90's OR "kid's shows" today don't have the allowances that shows we grew up on had. If there isn't at least some evidence to TMNT fans that THINGS ARE GOING BACKWARDS then I can't frankly help them. We are in a very conservative, puerile era of entertainment that threatens to dumb down and turn young children into subhuman idiots with the crap that they are being fed these days.

[IndigoErth]

Would I be unfair in declaring anything that is kid friendly "by today's standards" to be garbage?
For a lot of it, no, not really. So much of it has become so dumbed down and derpy. The shift is pretty obvious when old eps of an already silly show like Spongebob are seen in contrast with the newer dumber ones. And I keep waiting for the butt obsession in cartoons to end... (I mean, Ren & Stimpy had the butt thing and durpiness back in my day, but that was that show, because that show was supposed to be weird... it wasn't every show, like that's the only thing that's funny now.)

Then you get a show like 'Rise' that tries too hard to be all cool and up to date with the memes junk, etc, and that show is going to age sooo badly because of it. lol I mean that "dabbing" nonsense was getting old and annoying already well before they decided Leo should do it for some damn reason.

[Leo656]

MLP: FiM is objectively one of the greatest things ever, and I say this with no irony whatsoever, BUT, it's an obvious exception and deserves to be in a class all its own. Also, studies show that about 70% or more of the people who've ever watched it were age 15-30. Credit to the showrunners for leaning into it rather than pushing those people away.

Otherwise, though, yeah, "children's entertainment" in the Here and Now is pretty much junk. And a lot of that is by design.

[IndigoErth]

Have to agree with you on that one. Never more than just a casual viewer, but have probably seen all of it and it was a pretty good show and was kinda sad that it ended. One of the rare reboots these days of an old property that was genuinely good, and dare I say even made into something better.

I mean when you take a kids property aimed at little girls and make something even the grown men like...you did something right. "Girl stuff" tends to be so limited and stereotyped, it's nice that a series dads and daughters might both enjoy together is even possible.

[Zog The Magnificent]

Listening to the conversation, I wonder if you're all watching the same cartoons I am. Cartoons have gotten way better then the 80s and 90s. They're able to do more, explore darker themes, have actual violence sometimes, have more continuity and character development, actually being written with end goals in mind, to say nothing of what people can do with representation these days if they so desire. If anything, censorship has gotten far less restricitve. The shows that exist today could never have existed in the 80s, 90s, or event the early 2000s, and thanks to this we have some of the best cartoons to have ever existed, like Adventure Time, Regular Show, Young Justice, etc. I'm genuinely not sure where some of the perspectives I've seen here are coming from.

[Leo656]

Have to agree with you on that one. Never more than just a casual viewer, but have probably seen all of it and it was a pretty good show and was kinda sad that it ended. One of the rare reboots these days of an old property that was genuinely good, and dare I say even made into something better.

I mean when you take a kids property aimed at little girls and make something even the grown men like...you did something right. "Girl stuff" tends to be so limited and stereotyped, it's nice that a series dads and daughters might both enjoy together is even possible.

This weekend, wife and I watched the 2017 MLP movie, followed by the 1986 one. Ooof. Talk about starting off with something that had very little substance to it in its original 1980s incarnation, and finding a way to over-achieve and turn its re-reboot into something that's actually not just "good", but like, super-good in more modern times. They really caught lightning in a bottle with FiM. I don't wanna say the original version was worthless or anything, but... vapid, maybe?

We were both very, very sad to see the FiM show end, but it is what it is. It's our favorite thing we ever thought we were gonna watch one time to make fun of it and then accidentally got sincerely into. Life's funny sometimes.
---------------

Zog: Being only passingly familiar with some of those shows you listed, I can't say much, other than Young Justice was probably not a "kids show".

When I personally refer to "kids shows", I'm thinking mostly of stuff that I see in passing on Nick and Discovery Family and such.

[PApagreg]

As long as its good I don't really care for example my two favorite animated iterations are 2k3 and Rise

Would I be unfair in declaring anything that is kid friendly "by today's standards" to be garbage?

Let's look at history for a second... The 87 Toon (OT) was kid friendly but aspects of it can still be taken seriously and watched by adults.

Speak for your own age group I pretty much watched every show in the TMNT iteration and I would rather the latter seasons of 12 than any of the good OT episodes.

The 2K3 show was "ALL AGES" like BTAS or the 90's Marvel shows. Everything after 2K3 has been a disappointment. As censorship has gotten tighter as time has gone on, kids today don't seem to be allowed to be exposed to the same things we were exposed to in the late 80's/early 90's OR "kid's shows" today don't have the allowances that shows we grew up on had. If there isn't at least some evidence to TMNT fans that THINGS ARE GOING BACKWARDS then I can't frankly help them. We are in a very conservative, puerile era of entertainment that threatens to dumb down and turn young children into subhuman idiots with the crap that they are being fed these days.

Just because there are some shows that go lighter and softer doesn't mean every show is the same, this is a scene from Infinity Train Book 2 a show that just started in January.

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Then you get a show like 'Rise' that tries too hard to be all cool and up to date with the memes junk, etc, and that show is going to age sooo badly because of it. lol I mean that "dabbing" nonsense was getting old and annoying already well before they decided Leo should do it for some damn reason.

Yep because as well all know the TMNT franchise was always known to be timeless and not a reflection of the decade they were released also they used meme humor for like 2 episodes at most.


Zog: Being only passingly familiar with some of those shows you listed, I can't say much, other than Young Justice was probably not a "kids show".

When I personally refer to "kids shows", I'm thinking mostly of stuff that I see in passing on Nick and Discovery Family and such.

Well you're missing out a lot by not watching stuff from Netflix, CN or Disney in fact you'll probably love Regular Show

[Leo656]

I'm the one guy who doesn't have Netflix. :lol:

[IndigoErth]

Yep because as well all know the TMNT franchise was always known to be timeless and not a reflection of the decade they were released also they used meme humor for like 2 episodes at most.
On the contrary... the '87 series was a bit ahead of its time. What with the Turtle Com being like an early cell phone but with video already, April often researching info on her computer at Channel 6 as if she had internet, and Donnie sometimes using a portal device as if it were a big flat screen tv... before any of these things existed.

The only thing that really ended up a bit dated about the 2003 is the whole "cyber" thing like it's so cool in that time period and sounds a little silly now.

[Leo656]

Dick Tracy had already been using the Two-Way Wrist Computer for a while by then. A significant upgrade to the previous Two-Way Wrist TV and (most famously) the Two-Way Wrist Radio before it.

Just saying. Most cool stuff since 1931 has been ripped off from Dick Tracy. :trazz:

Carry on.

[Andrew NDB]

Well we are allowed some level material intended for an older target audience in the form of comics

Not really. They're not allowed to have the Turtles kill anybody... so that kind of nixes the whole "ninja" thing right out of the bag.

[Leo656]

Yeah, that's incredibly "WTF". Like no, the "good guys" don't need to be mowing down bad guys left and right, but there's no urgency or dramatic tension whatsoever if you know going into a story that nothing "too" bad can ever be allowed to happen. Whatever you're left with is totally toothless.

I mean, for as much to-do has been made about "Superman/Batman/misc. never kill anyone", they kinda do and have if there's a situation when there's no way out of it. The editorial mandate stands BUT it's also implicitly understood on the part of the readers that the One Rule might be broken if circumstances were dire enough.

Like why is one of your main characters carrying two swords if the worst that's ever gonna happen is he gives someone a bit of a scratch? He may as well have a Nerf gun. They all should, if "nobody ever gets hurt TOO bad" needs to be a rule.

F*cking Nickelodeon. Their ownership of the TMNT brand is nothing but a pair of handcuffs.

[IndigoErth]

I dunno, Nick did allow the 2012 Turtles to eventually kill Shredder and show Splinter being murdered by him... but that's pretty bold for Nick and doubtful it will happen again...

edit: And they did surprise us by actually airing that Batman vs TMNT movie, with surprisingly minimal clean up if any. Me thinks Nick might not mind being just a little daring(?) but doesn't want to piss off the parents and censors.

Dick Tracy had already been using the Two-Way Wrist Computer for a while by then. A significant upgrade to the previous Two-Way Wrist TV and (most famously) the Two-Way Wrist Radio before it.

Just saying. Most cool stuff since 1931 has been ripped off from Dick Tracy. :trazz:

Carry on.
So the Apple Watch basically. (I think?) Though it did take longer to actually happen.

[Sharman]

Not really. They're not allowed to have the Turtles kill anybody... so that kind of nixes the whole "ninja" thing right out of the bag.

Yeah, that's a bummer. That's part of the issue with Nickelodeon's handling of the franchise.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

I dunno, Nick did allow the 2012 Turtles to eventually kill Shredder and show Splinter being murdered by him... but that's pretty bold for Nick and doubtful it will happen again...

Since then, I've sometimes thought of:

Would that have been allowed if Shredder hadn't mutated into Super Shredder?

[PizzaPower1985]

Here's a question... Would Nickelodeon's "neutering" of the TMNT also happen or be the same thing (OR SIMILAR TO) if say Disney owned the TMNT? How much of the "neutering" or "handcuffing" is due to corporate branding and how much of that is due to public perception of the property? Obviously when Laird owned the TMNT 2K3 4Kids happened and, well, it was damn near a masterpiece (the first 4 seasons anyway). There's been a lot of mention, and obviously I agree, that since Nick has owned our beloved franchise that things have softened. Should this have been expected? Is it possible, going back to my OP, that we could see a turnaround... Can we get it in THEIR heads that TMNT should be ALL AGES, not specifically for young people and younger people and youngest people?

[PApagreg]

On the contrary... the '87 series was a bit ahead of its time. What with the Turtle Com being like an early cell phone but with video already, April often researching info on her computer at Channel 6 as if she had internet, and Donnie sometimes using a portal device as if it were a big flat screen tv... before any of these things existed.

The only thing that really ended up a bit dated about the 2003 is the whole "cyber" thing like it's so cool in that time period and sounds a little silly now.

No not on the contrary just because a show uses future tech doesn't mean its "ahead of its time" like Leo656 said various of pieces of media have done that before, the 87 iteration wears the decade it was made from on its sleave and there are lots of things that would be consider dated and while I wouldn't consider it a bad thing(There are a lot of media I like where its a reflection of its decade) it kinda disingenuous to call Rise horribly dated just because it used meme humor twice and Leo dabs.

[IndigoErth]

And? It's still going to make that series show its age in not too many years. No getting around that.

because a show uses future tech doesn't mean its "ahead of its time"
So you think the makers of shows are psychic? Like they already know what will exist someday? All shows that loosely predict things that come along later in real life are a bit ahead of the time on coming up with those things, yes. In some cases it wouldn't surprise me if some shows or whatnot even helped provide a little inspiration.

[victory_angel]

Having tech and things that are commonplace now is not ahead of its time.

Ahead of its time means a show is considered innovative and radical by the standards of the time; more characteristic of a later age.

Disney's Gargoyles would be an example of ahead of its time as it explored concepts and situations that weren't commonly used in most shows. Disney Afternoon shows in the 90's were largely fluffy, and if dark concepts were introduced they'd be resolved with the bit of slapstick.


Gargoyles was one of the first TV shows that actually did tow the line on what was seen as kid-friendly and delve into the dark territory that shows such as Batman would take.

Ninja Turtles in every incarnation is more a product of its current age and the people who hold the right to it.

the 2012 series wasn't a mature show, but it was more cohesive then say rise is. The next incarnation may be more mature or it might go down the rails as far as characters.

Even if they did do a Turtle Version of something like Muppet Babies or Baby Loonytoons. Yes, you are going to get the cutesy storylines such as the "Learning to Share" episode or the "Don't be a tattletale" episode.

But if it can be presented like "Lone Rat and Cubs" had been where Splinter is a struggling parent trying to look after four baby turtles that he didn't really ask for. So while he is looking after them he is learning what it means to be a parent and figuring out how to provide for them and gradually teach them the skills they will need to know in order to survive in a world that won't accept them as they are. That could work.

[TigerClaw]

Having tech and things that are commonplace now is not ahead of its time.

Ahead of its time means a show is considered innovative and radical by the standards of the time; more characteristic of a later age.

Disney's Gargoyles would be an example of ahead of its time as it explored concepts and situations that weren't commonly used in most shows. Disney Afternoon shows in the 90's were largely fluffy, and if dark concepts were introduced they'd be resolved with the bit of slapstick.


Gargoyles was one of the first TV shows that actually did tow the line on what was seen as kid-friendly and delve into the dark territory that shows such as Batman would take.

Ninja Turtles in every incarnation is more a product of its current age and the people who hold the right to it.

the 2012 series wasn't a mature show, but it was more cohesive then say rise is. The next incarnation may be more mature or it might go down the rails as far as characters.

Even if they did do a Turtle Version of something like Muppet Babies or Baby Loonytoons. Yes, you are going to get the cutesy storylines such as the "Learning to Share" episode or the "Don't be a tattletale" episode.

But if it can be presented like "Lone Rat and Cubs" had been where Splinter is a struggling parent trying to look after four baby turtles that he didn't really ask for. So while he is looking after them he is learning what it means to be a parent and figuring out how to provide for them and gradually teach them the skills they will need to know in order to survive in a world that won't accept them as they are. That could work.
TMNT can go in any direction. But regardless the origin remains the same.

I wish a new series went in the direction of the IDW comics. That is like the standard for how to do TMNT stories.

I would like a show centered around Mutant Town. I think it would be a fun show to do as an anthology series. You could have the Turtles be a part of it. But show us how things are like for the Mutants trying to live a normal life.

[IndigoErth]

Having tech and things that are commonplace now is not ahead of its time.

Ahead of its time means a show is considered innovative and radical by the standards of the time; more characteristic of a later age.
Yeah, I don't think we're all on the same page (or same book for that matter) on this topic or what is being discussed.

[Leo656]

TMNT can go in any direction. But regardless the origin remains the same.

I wish a new series went in the direction of the IDW comics. That is like the standard for how to do TMNT stories.

I would like a show centered around Mutant Town. I think it would be a fun show to do as an anthology series. You could have the Turtles be a part of it. But show us how things are like for the Mutants trying to live a normal life.

TMNT is not Zootopia, but alright.

[PApagreg]

Yeah, I don't think we're all on the same page (or same book for that matter) on this topic or what is being discussed.

Nah its the fact they you are using that phrase incorrectly especially when video communication has been in fiction for decades even before the OT turtles did it so it wasn't being "ahead of its time" but rather "following the current trend" when it comes to the appearance of future tech.


the 2012 series wasn't a mature show, but it was more cohesive then say rise is. The next incarnation may be more mature or it might go down the rails as far as characters..

Yeah I disagree with that fact 2012 was anything but cohesive especially compared to Rise.

[IndigoErth]

For the love of god, just Google shows and movies that predicted future inventions. Interesting read and maybe you'll understand what the heck I was talking about.

I never said the Turtles as a show did anything first, they are but one example, and all I did was point out a few instances of them having things that to some extent relate to things WE IN REAL LIFE later had that did not exist at the time of the episodes (so no, I'm not misusing that term).... which can be a fun topic to discuss, but no, you want to make something into a fight again.


edit: A good example that kind of blew my mind a little is that the 1990 movie Darkman supposedly predicted the 3D printing of human organs and skin, which is something that is right now in the process of becoming a reality.

But back to TMNT...

[Leo656]

I'll take responsibility as I was the first one to be pedantic in this thread.

[PApagreg]

For the love of god, just Google shows and movies that predicted future inventions. Interesting read and maybe you'll understand what the heck I was talking about..

I know what you are talking about that still doesn't mean "ahead of its time" by that logic Rise must be ahead of its time because Donnie made portable flying devices and extra limbs.

I never said the Turtles as a show did anything first, they are but one example, and all I did was point out a few instances of them having things that to some extent relate to things WE IN REAL LIFE later had that did not exist at the time of the episodes (so no, I'm not misusing that term).... which can be a fun topic to discuss, but no, you want to make something into a fight again.

Yeah thats because at the time it was considered futuristic tech and again by that logic almost any show that has some semblance of futuristic tech is "ahead of its time".

Also this is the definition for the term which Victory Angel already stated

https://i.imgur.com/yBXgN9k.jpg

So lets see its NOT innovative or radical by the standards of time because lots of media was doing it before and its not that much of a characteristic of a later age because in the context of the show its considered hi tech piece of equipment that normal people don't have. That's all I have to say and if you want to take it up with anyone blame the people who actually made up the term.

[IndigoErth]

by that logic Rise must be ahead of its time because Donnie made portable flying devices and extra limbs.
No, because you're just unnecessarily nitpicking word use (when my intended use of the term remains accurate) and either still don't get or purposely ignore what I was saying, as that 'Rise' comment is totally off the mark to the entire point.

Those inventions of 'Rise,' like any series, would only be ahead of their time once that show is in the past AND we by then have the relative equivalent of those inventions in real life. (see: more characteristic of a later age)

Simply put... shows are not ahead of their time (YET) when those inventions are only fiction... but they were when the equivalent of those inventions become real.

Maybe something in 'Rise' will be someday, but we won't know that until then. It's retroactive.

[Leo656]

You reminded me to finally get around to watching "Darkman". I don't think I've ever seen it in full!

[IndigoErth]

Well I'm glad something good came of all that. lol




Anyhow... been about a year now since that Batman VS TMNT movie came out. So as far as further supporting some amount of TMNT going in an older direction, hoping maybe at some point we'll hear about a sequel. Even if the virus could delay anything being made, the plans could at least still happen?

[Leo656]

I'd say anything is possible. Especially with an animated project because a lot of that work can be done from home, as is happening now. Plus, WB seems to be in an unusually generous mood lately, if this morning's news is any indication. So I guess it pays to hold on to hope.

Still gotta get around to seeing TMNT/Batman. It looks very fan-wanky to me and I kinda don't like the art style, plus the comic it's based on seems absolutely dreadful. But if I come across it cheap I'll finally bite one of these days. I'm not avoiding it on purpose, what I've seen of it just didn't sell me. But I get all the Batman stuff eventually, anyway, though.

Speaking of Batman, and of early-90s cult super-hero movies, another one I'm overdue for is The Shadow. I was too young to appreciate some of this stuff.

[PizzaPower1985]

Still gotta get around to seeing TMNT/Batman. It looks very fan-wanky to me and I kinda don't like the art style, plus the comic it's based on seems absolutely dreadful. But if I come across it cheap I'll finally bite one of these days. I'm not avoiding it on purpose, what I've seen of it just didn't sell me. But I get all the Batman stuff eventually, anyway, though.

Speaking of Batman, and of early-90s cult super-hero movies, another one I'm overdue for is The Shadow. I was too young to appreciate some of this stuff.

Here, here, bro! I'm a major Bat-fan and a huge TMNT fan and I love the IDW TMNT books. When they crossed over I rolled my eyes and completely ignored it as the comic looked terrible and screamed gimmick. I think the movie looks better than the book and if I happen by it some day I may check it out but I won't go out of my way. Also, if you are a Shadow fan, the Alec Baldwin movie is worth a watch. Just don't expect it to be like the pulps or the radio show. It's more of a hybrid of 60+ years of Shadow history. Not amazing but not bad either.

[Leo656]

I know very little, but the character has always intrigued me anyway.

[PizzaPower1985]

I know very little, but the character has always intrigued me anyway.

Still, it's worth a watch. But yeah as far as Batman/TMNT or Ghostbusters/TMNT for that matter, I'm sure those minis have their audience but as someone who has followed IDW's main TMNT storyline they just weren't for me. The only minis that intrigue me are the Secret History of the Foot, the micro-hero/villain stories and the new Shredder in Hell thing that I have yet to read. I am SO THANKFUL that IDW doesn't make the mini-series mandatory to follow along on the main storyline.

[Leo656]

Shoot, I forgot they did a Ghostbusters one.

It's kinda crazy how so many things that I would have sh*t myself over as a kid, have now actually happened and I'm kinda "meh" about it. :lol: That's life, I guess.

[IndigoErth]

I need a TMNT/Ghostbusters movie. (Not necessarily with the comic crossover storyline.)

Animation would be nice... but my god, if a live action one was done just for the hell of it, just to make something crazy... heck, I wouldn't even care if it was the PD boys (but maybe scaled down in size) for the sake of saving time with existing CGI characters they'd just render out alongside the ghost/monster CGI and effects.

[Leo656]

I'd settle for the goddamn Larry Storch/Forrest Tucker "Ghost Busters" (two words) who hung out with a gorilla, so long as nobody from "Answer The Call" was allowed anywhere near the damn project. :trazz:

[PizzaPower1985]

I could get into a Real Ghostbusters / Red Sky TMNT crossover featuring The Boogieman (Nightmare-fuel) and Samhain teaming with Lord Dregg against our heroes. That would be nuts. They'd have to make it dark and scary though for me to really get into it.

[Leo656]

I'unno about all that, myself, but anything with either Boogeyman or Samhain would demand my attention, let alone both of them. Those were the coolest RGB villains for sure.

[PizzaPower1985]

I always thought the Boogieman was the scariest thing when I was 7. For me scarier than all of the slasher films of the 80's. Scarier than Freddy Krueger etc. And when I started reading Batman comics and seeing all of the variations on Joker art I thought "heh heh... The Boogieman with his weird hair, white face and red mouth is the craziest Joker variant there is." I can't be the only one to make the connection between Boogieman and Joker.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

You reminded me to finally get around to watching "Darkman". I don't think I've ever seen it in full!


I'd suggest watching the first two, but maaaaybe skip 3 and 4. Hubby and I own the entire movie series, and for being some of Raimi's early work, the original is great!

[Leo656]

I wasn't aware of how many films are in the series, but I've heard that there are some extremely diminishing returns.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Yeah, by the third movie, his motivation becomes- a BIT thin, IMHO. And the bad guys got progressively worse, too. But in fairness, I don't think Raimi was actively working of them by that point. I know he did the first two, but after that? I don't recall. Though his disguises DID get better in terms of time-limits and skill.

[PizzaPower1985]

It is my hope that Nickelodeon can at some point recognize the potential that a property like TMNT has to appeal to the original fans and starts to lean more into the Eastman/Laird/Mirage era OR find ways to make every incarnation accessible to 35 to 50 year old original fans who desperately love TMNT and want to be able to to engage in the property the way the quality works like 1990 movie or the IDW books or maybe even 2K3 (it's a lil' too juvenile for some) has allowed them to.

Perhaps this thread has already answered the question, but... maybe it's not possible for TMNT to reach their true potential being owned by Nickelodeon?

[IndigoErth]

Perhaps this thread has already answered the question, but... maybe it's not possible for TMNT to reach their true potential being owned by Nickelodeon?
Probably not, but then the question and fear is, who do they sell to? Who do they potentially get trapped with next, if Nick is willing to give them up? Who would we be comfortable with.

DC seems to be the predictable route, given the relationship that seems to have formed. Though while I'm all for the TMNT being free to visit DC properties as much as they and DC like, I'm hesitant on wanting them to be owned by one of the big comic companies and possibly just getting permanently trapped there, just shelved and lost among the countless other characters those kinds of companies have at their disposal.

I almost wish they were public domain, but no way will we ever see that day and that surely won't happen until they've been forgotten for too long...


I wish they'd move on being just broadly a Viacom property, not just known as a Nick one, and just continue being increasingly willing to license them out to others (like DC, etc) who want to do things with them. If they remained open to allowing others to do things with them, not just kiddie Nick stuff, then I might be okay with them staying with Viacom, at least for now. If companies like DC, etc got their mitts on them, it might be questionable if they'd allow anyone else to touch them ever again...?

[PizzaPower1985]

I have NO DOUBT that being owned by a comic book corporation like DC or Marvel and by extension WB and Disney would be bad for the brand. Maybe Marvel in the 70's or 80's owning them wouldn't be bad but Marvel is a shadow of a shadow of a shadow of it's former self. Marvel back decades ago got licensed properties like Indiana Jones, RoboCop and (to a degree though it wasn't always great) Star Wars and respected the hell out of those franchises by treating them with quality.

I think probably what has to happen (AND NEVER WILL) is that Mega Corporation X has to own the TMNT whole cloth then license them out to places like WB, Disney etc. and say MAKE A SHOW/WRITE A COMIC/DESIGN A GAME... BUT UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES SHOULD IT HAVE LESS THAN A HARD PG or PG 13 Rating.

TMNT should be for ALL AGES, AS LONG AS THOSE AGES DON'T INCLUDE 15 and under. Now, that's subjective, ain't it? What exactly can a 15 year old be exposed to that a 13 year old can't these days?

FANS want TMNT to be taken seriously as a property and yet, we get RISE and 2012 cartoons and Nick lets Michael Bay make movies and HOW EXACTLY is TMNT supposed to be taken seriously? I still don't understand why the 2012 show isn't treated with the same scorn as Next Mutation.

WE have to go to FAN conventions and the NEXT TIME a TMNT project is announced... if it looks even minutely like your 10 year old could see it, WE NEED TO BOO THEM SO HARD. As a collective... and then start chanting something like "MAKE IT DARKER" or something. Those corporate suits HAVE NO RESPECT for Kevin and Peter's creation. We need to make them respect it.

[Leo656]

DC's done some interesting things with the He-Man/Masters of the Universe property in recent years. I haven't finished it but I really liked the beginning of the recent "Masters of the Multiverse" mini-series, for example. Much of the material they've published with those books skews darker (extremely so for a licensed property) and is definitely more geared towards fans who grew up with the originals, rather than at kids. And the line isn't "part of" the DC Universe despite being owned and published by DC, and the cross-overs and interactions are kept extremely minimal. It's not like Prince Adam suddenly starts hanging out at the JLA Watchtower; it's a separate universe that happens to be owned by the same publishing company.

That's the route I'd like to see TMNT take if they were acquired by another corporate owner; if we're being realistic, "another corporate owner" would most likely mean DC/WB or Marvel/Disney. And DC just has a much better track record at keeping their brands "separate but equal" without constantly needing Superman and Batman to show up in places they don't fit. I get the feeling that if they were acquired by Disney/Marvel, not only would they be watered down for the casuals and all-ages market, and we'd never get anything with "teeth" to it again, but that they'd be crossing over with Wolverine and the X-Men within the first year and way too often after that.

DC is owned by a corporation, but one with more history with putting out all different kinds of content for all different types of audiences. Sometimes, depending on who the creator is, they've even been all but "hands-off" in letting them produce whatever content they want, with very little editorial meddling (or even oversight, sometimes), which occasionally gets them into trouble, but they've generally been a company that, when it comes to producing content, they'd rather apologize and do damage control after the fact if they offend someone, rather than preemptively censor them, as is the habit at other companies. Obviously, the opposite is true at times, but they're generally only heavy-handed when a brand is part of the DCU "proper"; when it's been Vertigo or "Black Label" stuff that's not part of the main line, they've always been extremely hands-off.

If we're ever again going to see a TMNT brand that's even reminiscent in spirit of the Mirage or Image stuff, I strongly feel like DC/WB buying it and giving it the "Vertigo/Black label" treatment would be the only real chance at having it done, and being of consistent quality. It would most likely be a series of mini-series rather than an ongoing, but that might even be for the best as it would let them focus on specific stories and not padding.

But yeah, that's something I'd like to see. It's not something I ever see happening but it's what I see as the Best-Case scenario, at this point. Disney/Marvel is too concerned with pleasing children and not offending anyone, and in big cross-overs and such. I don't think TMNT would even be given a chance to thrive on their own in that environment. Given how quickly they've folded stuff like Supreme Power/Squadron Supreme into their main line in the past, and how domineering their Editorial has been in forcing writers to make decisions that don't sit well either with the creators OR the audience, I just don't think TMNT would be treated well, there, even though there's a lot more resources on their side. DC is my preferred brand anyway, but just looking at how each company has historically handled properties that don't fit into their main universes, I objectively do think that DC/WB would be a much better fit.

Not that I see it happening. But that would be the only way we'd ever escape the "This is strictly a children's property" stigma, as far as I can tell.

[Xav]

I'd suggest watching the first two, but maaaaybe skip 3 and 4.It's easy to skip 4 since it doesn't exist.

[PizzaPower1985]

DC's done some interesting things with the He-Man/Masters of the Universe property in recent years. I haven't finished it but I really liked the beginning of the recent "Masters of the Multiverse" mini-series, for example. Much of the material they've published with those books skews darker (extremely so for a licensed property) and is definitely more geared towards fans who grew up with the originals, rather than at kids. And the line isn't "part of" the DC Universe despite being owned and published by DC, and the cross-overs and interactions are kept extremely minimal. It's not like Prince Adam suddenly starts hanging out at the JLA Watchtower; it's a separate universe that happens to be owned by the same publishing company.

That's the route I'd like to see TMNT take if they were acquired by another corporate owner; if we're being realistic, "another corporate owner" would most likely mean DC/WB or Marvel/Disney. And DC just has a much better track record at keeping their brands "separate but equal" without constantly needing Superman and Batman to show up in places they don't fit. I get the feeling that if they were acquired by Disney/Marvel, not only would they be watered down for the casuals and all-ages market, and we'd never get anything with "teeth" to it again, but that they'd be crossing over with Wolverine and the X-Men within the first year and way too often after that.

DC is owned by a corporation, but one with more history with putting out all different kinds of content for all different types of audiences. Sometimes, depending on who the creator is, they've even been all but "hands-off" in letting them produce whatever content they want, with very little editorial meddling (or even oversight, sometimes), which occasionally gets them into trouble, but they've generally been a company that, when it comes to producing content, they'd rather apologize and do damage control after the fact if they offend someone, rather than preemptively censor them, as is the habit at other companies. Obviously, the opposite is true at times, but they're generally only heavy-handed when a brand is part of the DCU "proper"; when it's been Vertigo or "Black Label" stuff that's not part of the main line, they've always been extremely hands-off.

If we're ever again going to see a TMNT brand that's even reminiscent in spirit of the Mirage or Image stuff, I strongly feel like DC/WB buying it and giving it the "Vertigo/Black label" treatment would be the only real chance at having it done, and being of consistent quality. It would most likely be a series of mini-series rather than an ongoing, but that might even be for the best as it would let them focus on specific stories and not padding.

But yeah, that's something I'd like to see. It's not something I ever see happening but it's what I see as the Best-Case scenario, at this point. Disney/Marvel is too concerned with pleasing children and not offending anyone, and in big cross-overs and such. I don't think TMNT would even be given a chance to thrive on their own in that environment. Given how quickly they've folded stuff like Supreme Power/Squadron Supreme into their main line in the past, and how domineering their Editorial has been in forcing writers to make decisions that don't sit well either with the creators OR the audience, I just don't think TMNT would be treated well, there, even though there's a lot more resources on their side. DC is my preferred brand anyway, but just looking at how each company has historically handled properties that don't fit into their main universes, I objectively do think that DC/WB would be a much better fit.

Not that I see it happening. But that would be the only way we'd ever escape the "This is strictly a children's property" stigma, as far as I can tell.

You sound like a man after my own heart. I take it you're a big DC and or Marvel guy/comics reader. If you have as much love and respect for the Big 2 and their history as I do, we should probably get together and go bowling or something, LoL. I've honestly not read modern Marvel or DC consistently since the early 2000s with few exceptions (I'm more of a golden/bronze age/immediate post crisis 90's reader) but I agree with everything you say here since I forgot about DC's tendency to skew darker, especially these days.

Marvel of decades ago, let's say hypothetically, they bought TMNT directly from Eastman/Laird in like 1986, I think they COULD HAVE done wonders with the franchise. These days, probably not. DC, if they bought it tomorrow, might end up treating TMNT the way Image did. I'd be happy with TMNT being given the same tone that Swamp Thing had in the 70's, 80's and 90's. And Vertigo would be the perfect imprint. So yeah, can it be done? Sure. But as you say, it's a pipedream full of wishful thinking at this point.

[AquaParade]

edit: And they did surprise us by actually airing that Batman vs TMNT movie, with surprisingly minimal clean up if any. Me thinks Nick might not mind being just a little daring(?) but doesn't want to piss off the parents and censors.
.

I think there may be some truth to this. It would be interesting to hear their thought process behind Batman Vs TMNT. Obviously the exposure to Batman fans is good for the brand, but they had to agree to that level of violence and that wasn't an accident.

I think you are right that they could be tiptoeing into slightly more mature territory after seeing the diminishing returns that aiming extremely low and wide with "Rise..." and "Out of the Shadows" brought them. At this point, even maintaining the franchise as something strictly for children may be looking like a risk. I mean, where do they go next, after the "failure" of "Rise..." and the recent movie but up? Hopefully this is a "do or die" moment for them. Take a risk and reap the rewards.

[Leo656]

You sound like a man after my own heart. I take it you're a big DC and or Marvel guy/comics reader. If you have as much love and respect for the Big 2 and their history as I do, we should probably get together and go bowling or something, LoL. I've honestly not read modern Marvel or DC consistently since the early 2000s with few exceptions (I'm more of a golden/bronze age/immediate post crisis 90's reader) but I agree with everything you say here since I forgot about DC's tendency to skew darker, especially these days.

Marvel of decades ago, let's say hypothetically, they bought TMNT directly from Eastman/Laird in like 1986, I think they COULD HAVE done wonders with the franchise. These days, probably not. DC, if they bought it tomorrow, might end up treating TMNT the way Image did. I'd be happy with TMNT being given the same tone that Swamp Thing had in the 70's, 80's and 90's. And Vertigo would be the perfect imprint. So yeah, can it be done? Sure. But as you say, it's a pipedream full of wishful thinking at this point.

I agree with a lot of this. TMNT under Marvel circa 1988 or so might have been very, very interesting. But I don't think their current model would be a great fit. We've seen how they treat things they can't make huge movie money on, like Fantastic 4 and so on. And they even treated X-Man rather shabbily in print and video games until they got the movie rights back in-house. They're too tied into their film division and TMNT has only worked as a movie One Time so far (I'll be generous and say that "Secret of the Ooze" kinda worked as well), so in 2020, I'd want Disney/Marvel to stay far, far away from TMNT. Too many things could go wrong even though they could also go right, but the risk of failure would be very high and the repercussions disastrous.

As for me, always a DC hardcore but "casual at best" for Marvel. They've had a ton of great video games, though; between that, trading cards, the old Fox cartoons from the 90s, some pre-Clone Spider-Man and the occasional trade paperback, that's the limit of my Marvel "expertise". I've probably got about 9,000 or so DC comics but I've only been checking in from afar now and then ever since the New 52 disaster.

[PizzaPower1985]

Yeah, for me, as far as superheroes and comics go, the ones I grew up on were the ones that had cartoons in the 90's. Bats and Supes are my big ones @ DC. My Marvel guys are The X-men, Spidey and Daredevil but I've read and own many stories by most of the DC/Marvel stable with the exception of Thor/Black Panther/Wonder Woman and Hawkman. I've got a soft spot for anything written by Denny O'neil, Roger Stern, Len Wein, Paul Dini and I love John Byrne's 80s and early 90s work. I adored Dini's 'Tec run but simultaneously disliked Morrison's Batman. Alan Moore is prob. my comics god too.

But yeah, Marvel did a RoboCop cartoon in 1988 that was pretty damn good for being an excuse to sell toys based on a violent 80's action movie. That toon got turned into a failed X-men pilot in 1989 that I also like. I think Marvel could have done great things with our boys in green BACK THEN. Today? Well, you've already said it.

[Leo656]

Yeah, we should definitely grab that beer. :lol:

My personal "Comics Creators Mount Rushmore" would need like 25 people on it, but those you named are some of the all-time greats. O'Neil understood the Batman character like nobody else before or since. Roger Stern's "Death and Life of Superman" prose novel was absolutely fantastic (even though the ending deviated from the comics just a little bit). Moore is on an altogether different level than almost everyone else. Byrne's DC stuff in '86-'88 is still some of my favorite ever, especially of course his Superman. The "Man of Steel" mini is probably the only Superman origin anyone ever needs.

I personally loved a lot of Morrison's Batman (although it reads better in big chunks, month-by-month it was very confusing), and I'd probably go so far as to literally bend the knee for Dan Jurgens as well. But otherwise I pretty much feel the same.

[PizzaPower1985]

Jurgens definitely was a gift to Superman there for a while in the 90's. I loved the Death and Return Saga (and conversely didn't really care for Knightfall once Bruce's back was broken -- Part 1 had some great moments tho).

It was Batman 89' and TMNT 1990 that cemented my destiny as superhero nerd/comics geek, tho I fell out of comics/superheroes by middle school, I rediscovered it in my 20's and haven't looked back. Now, 34 and a proud owner of 312 trades, a collection of figures, videogames and a lot of superhero movies.

It is specifically the 1990 TMNT that ruined me I guess. I mean that led me to Mirage and that led me to 2K3 and that led me to IDW. I can't figure out why these other modern incarnations are even accepted. I mean a lot of us started with Murakami/Wolf... once you've had the 1990 movie and 2K3 it just seems like it should go up from there. Not down. Alas, Mr. Laird has left the building, I guess.

[Leo656]

Yeah, the 1990 film hit all the right notes for me at that point in my life, and anything less than that felt like a huge step backwards ever since. For a brief moment there in the early-90s it felt like the brand might be willing to grow with its audience, but instead all anyone wants to do is keep dragging things back to 1988, along with only being interested in pleasing an audience that's mostly 6 and 7 years old.

Around 1991, TMNT could legitimately make the case for being an "all-ages" property, because between all the different cartoons, comics, prose novellas and video games, you were bound to connect with SOMEthing no matter how old you were or how long you'd been a fan of the property. Now, it's not only "just for kids", but when older fans ask for more content aimed at them, or take issue with any of what presently exists and dare to say so out loud, they are openly told to get lost and f*ck off. "We don't want or need you as fans, anyway." Which is like... WHAT?

So, so many steps backwards since 1991-ish. Those were the good ol' days. Truly "Something for everyone", not "Like what we give you or cram it."

[MsMarvelDuckie]

As a Marvel fan, I just want to chime in and say that yes, they COULD do TMNT justice even now, though it would 1) be a tough sell, and 2) it would have to be done by the right PEOPLE. Strazynski, if he is/was still with them, would be my prime candidate, since he not only wrote some of the deepest and DARKEST Spidey stories I've ever read, but he also worked on Babylon 5 AND has at least one horror novel under his belt (that I know of)! So I know he could pull it off. As a second, Peter David might be able to do it, provided someone can rein in his quirky sense of humor, but he's both good, and knows angst and existential crisis, given his long tenure on Hulk. Heck, a tag team of those two would be my dream team for a Marvel-done TMNT movie script.

My only stipulation would be to keep Slott and Quesada FAAAR away. Slott may have some cool ideas at times, but he has been prone to run them to death or just oversell them, imo. Not sure of any other current talent who would be good, but I would happily pull Bendis back as well, for such a project. (Can't believe he ever jumped to the opposition in the first place. Yeesh....)

[Leo656]

If they tried to actually make TMNT part of the "Marvel Universe" it would be bad no matter who was writing it. I just don't think they'd belong in a "super-hero universe" and Marvel has a habit of doing that with everything they acquire.

Like in theory, sure, guys like David might write a good TMNT book IF it wasn't a case where they would be teaming up with Wolverine every few weeks. But there's really no evidence to support that theory would be reality. Their track record says that would be the rule and not the exception. Everything from New Universe to Squadron Supreme says that they'd probably fold a TMNT book into the Marvel Universe and have them crossing over with everyone else the minute sales slipped. And that just wouldn't work. It would be bad for the TMNT brand even if it sold a ton of copies. They shouldn't be in "regular" super-hero stories, it totally dilutes who they are.

I don't think it has anything to do with who'd be writing it or which brand anyone is a fan of. Both publishers operate very differently; DC has a longstanding track record of being able to print books that don't fit their super-hero line while Marvel pretty much can't or won't do that.

I wouldn't want to see the Turtles having recurring adventures with Spider-Man any more than I'd want them to team up with the Teen Titans every few weeks. Thus, I'd have to lean towards the publisher that has actually proven that they don't HAVE to do things like that, or at least has historically been much better about resisting the temptation.
---------------

Also, Bendis is not good. :lol: I'm baffled that guy gets work. I'm convinced he's never heard two human beings have a conversation before, his dialog is just... well, it's something. :lol:

[PizzaPower1985]

No. No. No. No. Modern mainstream comics writers have TOO BIG EGOS if they have worked for Marvel in the 21st century. Bendis is a great writer of dark, decompressed superhero storyelling (as long as it was Daredevil in the early 2000's), but his career has proven that he is too egotistical to handle something as precious as Leo, Raph, Mikey and Don... He would be a disaster for TMNT. JMS' Spider-man WAS NOT Spider-man. Peter Parker was a different character from 1962 to 2000. When JMS took over and gave us the god awful 9/11 issue and Sin's Past and the Gwen/Norman affair, he officially declared to the world that HIS Spider-man was not the same guy that fans knew and adored for 38 years. JMS could probably handle TMNT... if he reinvented them beyond all recognition.

Peter David DID work on the TMNT in the form of the 4Kids comic and he just wrote family dynamics and treated the TMNT like the Fantastic Four. Why? Because Peter David DOES NOT understand the TMNT. It was just a paycheck to him.

Marvel, back when Roy Thomas was in charge or when Archie Goodwin (RIP) was top banana... that environment... that sort of corporate atmosphere would have been a good fit for TMNT. Today? too many cooks in the corporate kitchen and a Marvel TMNT would be a cross between 2012, 2K3 and Bay TMNT... it would STILL be aimed at your kids and grandkids and their unborn unborn kids.

Leo656 I think implied it best when he suggested that Vertigo could probably handle it, but DC could not. Everytime DC gets the license to Doc Savage, The Spirit, (insert licensed character here) THESE DAYS, Batman always shows up. Hell, DC doesnt even have the license and IDW is half-ruining a great comic run by making stories about Batman and TMNT or Ghostbusters and TMNT. Because they can't resist a fan-wank. Even IDW can't help themselves.

Marvel licensed ROM Spaceknight way back in the 80's and guess what... Spidey and The Hulk showed up in his book AND he showed up in theirs. Now in our current time when those stories get reprinted ROM has to be deleted from whole stories and panels because guess who no longer has the rights to the Spaceknight.

Facts is facts and corporate culture today WILL NOT allow TMNT to be successfully adopted by DC or Marvel because fan-wanking will happen and Clark Kent will fall into a sewer and OMG. CROSSOVER... Or... Peter Parker will chase a rogue Hulk into Midtown Manhattan and Foot Ninja will be heisting a bank or something. IT JUST WON'T WORK.

EDIT: Everything in this post that was directed negatively toward DC Comics STRICTLY APPLIES TO THE MODERN ERA. It's ALL pretty much Dan DiDio's fault with the backing of Geoff Johns.

[Leo656]

Also, Vertigo is dead, I think, so if TMNT were acquired by DC it would have to be under their "Black Label" imprint or something, I guess.

Although, come to think of it, the He-Man books are still published under the plain ol' "DC" imprint and they've stayed in their own sandbox, to the point where the Masters of the Universe has its own "Multiverse" which isn't necessarily the same as the "DC Multiverse". Or at least it hasn't been utilized as part of it, yet.

So yeah, it's weird, but there's all kinds of examples of DC publishing stuff and not needing to force it into the main line. I mean they sat on "Watchmen" for 30 years, more or less, before they caved into temptation and crossed them over with Superman and Batman and the rest (and even that was only possible due to Parallel Universe Shenanigans and as a one-time deal). And that's the highest-selling graphic novel of all time; more people have read Watchmen than have ever read a TMNT comic. The temptation to have Superman fight Doctor Manhattan or Batman team up with Rorschach must have been tremendous, just from a sales and marketing perspective, but they held off on doing it for a very, very long time. That says a lot about their precedent of restraint. I'unno, I just think they'd handle it better.

Hypothetical Scenario Guesstimation:
- DC acquires TMNT license, odds of in-canon Batman cross-over: About 50-70%.
- Marvel acquires the TMNT license, odds of in-canon Wolverine cross-over: 80-90%.

Note that I said "in-canon" as the TMNT/Batman stuff they've already done is most likely not even close.

But yeah, that's what my gut tells me. Even Image couldn't resist teaming them up with Savage Dragon about 5 minutes into the run, back in the day. If anyone was gonna acquire TMNT, I'd prefer it be a company that shows a little restraint in not trying to fit the square peg in the round hole. But that's me. I'm ONLY basing this opinion on each publisher's track record, not the fact that I have a preference in brands.
-----------

A little harsh on Peter David, weren't ya? :lol: I'd totally forgotten he wrote for that Dreamwave TMNT book. And yeah, it wasn't a good example of his work, but to be fair the entire book simply wasn't done well at all. I agree, it was probably a "paycheck project" for him but it's also in no way an indicator on how he'd perform in writing a "real" TMNT book. He's inarguably one of the best, that project just wasn't a good situation.

Odds are good that with enough preparation he could do good work on a "real" TMNT book. Not my first pick, but then again I didn't have high hopes for his Supergirl run, either, and that's the only time the character's ever been the least bit interesting. So I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

[AquaParade]

I never imagined TMNT as a Veritgo book, but it could have been perfect.

I’ll love Marvel and their comics for the rest of my life, but I agree that it’s hard to imagine TMNT being a good fit there these days. I just imagine endless reboots and a lack of focus, unfortunately. Plus 616 New York is too crowded.

DC could still be a good fit, for sure. I’d actually like to see that. I imagine we’d get more attempts at “evergreen” stories. DKR, Watchmen, that sort of book that sells in collected form for decades. The Last Ronin may be a good example.

[PizzaPower1985]

P. David has a long history of doing movie tie-in novelizations and small projects for all kinds of licensed properties. Harsh on P. David? Maybe. Maybe not. I've always thought he was a good writer, just an ill fit for TMNT and his late Spidey work tying in to Civil War was all over the place... a mess. That was kind of a tangent there. Sorry, didn't mean to get so... passionate. The Irish in my blood, maybe? The last thing I want to do is offend.

As far as Watchmen being held back for 30 years... wasn't there some kind of deal where DC screwed Alan Moore because his initial agreement with them was that if the book ever went out of print, he would get full rights and ownership? I think DC just kept the book in print and therefore kept Watchmen out of the DCU so Moore wouldn't be able to find some legal loophole to sue or something.

I have a feeling that your "guesstimations" are probably very accurate. Crossovers can't be helped when huge properties are involved I suppose... People's eyeballs turn into dollar signs.

While we're on this thread... I really wish we could let the IDW book just come to an end... I love it. I think it's the 2nd or 3rd (if u count Mirage) best TMNT thing ever. But Mr. Waltz, Kevin and the IDW crew have written so many miniseries, alternate maxiseries (Universe?) and one-shots that go along with this main series that I think the thing as a whole has suffered. The occasional mini was fine as long as it didn't interfere very much with the MAIN, but now the MAIN has so many editor's notes and so many asides about events outside the MAIN that may not have been followed up by some fans that it is just starting to get a little... tedious. That said, Waltz and Eastman are writing a hell of a TMNT series.

[PizzaPower1985]

DC could still be a good fit, for sure. I’d actually like to see that. I imagine we’d get more attempts at “evergreen” stories. DKR, Watchmen, that sort of book that sells in collected form for decades. The Last Ronin may be a good example.

And... isn't that what TMNT needs... standalone stories without much continuity where a reader can just pick up a story (3-6 issues) and just enjoy it without all of the overarching continuity. I think a "light" continuity is great, something to establish a particular incarnation, a world, a particular iteration that sets it apart from other TMNT outings, but we should get an entire run of standalone stories that offer a "day in the life" similar to a lot of what Mirage did in their later runs between all the guest era and City At War.

[Leo656]

P. David has a long history of doing movie tie-in novelizations and small projects for all kinds of licensed properties. Harsh on P. David? Maybe. Maybe not. I've always thought he was a good writer, just an ill fit for TMNT and his late Spidey work tying in to Civil War was all over the place... a mess. That was kind of a tangent there. Sorry, didn't mean to get so... passionate. The Irish in my blood, maybe? The last thing I want to do is offend.

Nah, didn't even come close to "offending", I just thought it was a bit harsh of an assessment. PAD's never been my favorite or anything but he's done some great stuff on Hulk and Supergirl, among others, two characters that have been historically very difficult to "get right".

I certainly haven't read most or even half of his entire catalog, but I've noticed that he has a good track record of taking concepts that sound bizarre or even awful on paper and making them work somehow. Like, absolutely everything about his Supergirl run sounds just dreadful on paper, from all the Heaven/Hell stuff to Supergirl literally being the Earth Angel Of Fire at one point, but if one actually reads the book A-to-Z it's fantastic. Like I'm about as agnostic as it gets but I'm a fan of well-written stories, and I really expected to hate that run but instead it's my favorite Supergirl series of all time. It's all about how the ideas are executed, in the end.

So yeah, I think Peter David might actually work really well on TMNT in the right context. I can see him not being afraid to dive deep into all the existential stuff that Mirage used to get into sometimes. "Freaks" and outcasts trying to find their place, the idea of being utterly unique and alone in the world, what it means to be "human", all that stuff. David's tackled those themes and similar to great effect in other books, so I have to believe that with the right situation, he could potentially do a really, really, really good TMNT book. He does three-dimensional characters really, really well, without sacrificing any action or plot. I'd actually like to see it happen, quite frankly.

That's a lot of "If's", though, I will grant you. As you said, the Dreamwave book is a perfect example of how even really good writers can "slum it" if the circumstances are poor. But I don't think it's a blanket statement on how well he'd do in a "real" TMNT book. He'd probably do better than most.

Hot Take: Peter David might not have anywhere near the same intimate knowledge and affection for the TMNT as Eastman and/or Laird, but he's certainly a much better writer than either of them. I don't see anyone arguing that point unless they were incredibly biased. So if he was given a TMNT project that wasn't simply there to hype a cartoon show or toy line, I think he could potentially do something awesome.

If.

[DarkFell]

Keep the TMNT diverse as it is.

Each incarnation of the franchise is always going to have it's own fans & critics, and gnashing at each other's throats about which version is better, is the equivalent of pushing Sisyphus' boulder up the hill.

Let the fans enjoy what they want to their own measure.

[Dejablue]

This question has been asked so many times in slightly different ways.

I think the TMNT could do with some grit in its next iteration. I really wish the people in charge would think about variety and how each version could be different instead of sticking to a popular trend and only going one way over the other.

It'd be cool if 2 different turtle shows could be running at the same time. One for kids, the other for older teens/adults.

[Andrew NDB]

Around 1991, TMNT could legitimately make the case for being an "all-ages" property, because between all the different cartoons, comics, prose novellas and video games, you were bound to connect with SOMEthing no matter how old you were or how long you'd been a fan of the property. Now, it's not only "just for kids", but when older fans ask for more content aimed at them, or take issue with any of what presently exists and dare to say so out loud, they are openly told to get lost and f*ck off. "We don't want or need you as fans, anyway." Which is like... WHAT?

Funny how that works.

Keep the TMNT diverse as it is.

If by "diverse" you mean a slow and deliberate course toward only catering to 6 year-olds? Then no.

[DarkFell]

If by "diverse" you mean a slow and deliberate course toward only catering to 6 year-olds? Then no.

Both the OT and 2K12 versions are similar to each other, but they are also different in some aspects.

2K3 is similar to Mirage and IDW Turtles in terms of atmosphere, but they also engage in their own thing and that keeps them separated despite being on the more serious side of the franchise.

That's what I meant by diverse.

The TMNT franchise is a multi-facet gem. There will be some edges that won't be appealing to everyone, but there are some things for people to enjoy from it.

[Dejablue]

When it comes to tmnt being more dark and aimed at adults. What does that entail actually. What counts as being for adults? I'm just curious because I have my own ideas for that but I want to hear what others think first.

Also is being more adult the desire or being more true to the idea of tmnt being for "all ages."

[ZariusTwo]

A lot of the time I feel modern adults are, in terms of mental maturity, no different than moody twelve-year olds. Kids are always thinking dark things even when they're watching cutesy stuff, and write just as much mindless edgy content as Didio-era DC.

In the very first fanfic I ever wrote, I killed off at least three people. I was eight and in Primary School, hooked on shows like The Shoe People and The Family Ness. I got a gold star for it.8)

[Dejablue]

Not everything in tmnt is meant for children but I think you can get away with a lot of stuff in children's media if you know how to be sneaky about it.

[Leo656]

A lot of the time I feel modern adults are, in terms of mental maturity, no different than moody twelve-year olds. Kids are always thinking dark things even when they're watching cutesy stuff, and write just as much mindless edgy content as Didio-era DC.

In the very first fanfic I ever wrote, I killed off at least three people. I was eight and in Primary School, hooked on shows like The Shoe People and The Family Ness. I got a gold star for it.8)

Maybe it's just me but I think it's possible to tell when there's a "sincerity" to the material.

I mean, you've read some'a my stuff. It's definitely "dark" in places but I think it's on the whole pretty balanced. I just try to write from a place of sincerity.

I am no David Lynch, but I cite Lynch because his stuff can range from the absolute darkest depths of depravity to the fluffiest of cornball goofiness, as anyone who's seen the entirety of "Twin Peaks" can attest. But neither feels phony or forced, it simply feels... authentic to the situations, I guess? That's what I try and aim for. You'd probably have to tell me if I'm getting it right or not, in your opinion, but that's what I try to do.

But so yeah, whether a piece of work is inherently Light and Fluffy or Dark N Gritty, I don't think either one is as important as "Is the work coming from a place of honesty and sincerity? Or is it all just contrived nonsense?"

But that's my take. I think it's possible to tell the difference between someone being sincere and someone who's just making up words if you really look at things, but perhaps it's just me.

[ZariusTwo]

Maybe it's just me but I think it's possible to tell when there's a "sincerity" to the material.

I mean, you've read some'a my stuff. It's definitely "dark" in places but I think it's on the whole pretty balanced. I just try to write from a place of sincerity.

You write from what reality conjures up for you, which I appreciate. What's better is the world you inhabit to front your bills is complete Tex Avery to begin with, so the wackiness blends perfectly with the grounded stuff and doesn't feel unnatural or forced to meet the expectations of a franchise fanbase.

[PizzaPower1985]

Is it possible that in modern times (say the last 25 years or so) human beings have used edginess, gritty, darker tropes and more adult themed storytelling as a crutch to mask less thoughtful, perhaps less deep or introspective writing? I'm talking about fiction in all its forms: TV, long form prose, comics, film etc. Some of it has certainly been great (Breaking Bad, Dexter, Tarantino movies, American Horror Story) and some of it has ranged from good to terrible (Mad Men tv series, Ed Brubaker's crime comics, the Supernatural TV series, Game of Thrones novels and TV, the 50 Shades of Grey novels, modern Marvel and DC Comics).

Has humankind always used shallow edginess as a crutch to illicit an emotional response when more profound ideas are absent or am I just talking out of my butt?

I ask because I think IF we got the TMNT that I truly wanted some might see it as edgy for the sake of "kewl" or shallow or forced or over the top. I know it's not possible to please everybody BUT I think TMNT has for so long been TRAPPED by the perception of being for little ones that if we suddenly went into reverse and offered a decade of projects for 25 to 50 year olds we might wreck the damn car.

[Galactus]

I'd argue there was a mini TMNT creative renaissance as the Turtlemania was starting to wane. Eastman & Laird returned to the Mirage book after a period of absence to do Shades of Grey and City At War, the Red Sky seasons of the animated series, the video games experimented with things beyond side scrolling button mashers with Radical Rescue and the various Tournament Fighters, even the action figures were trying new things beyond dressing up the turtles in silly costumes.

As for if TMNT was ever bought by WB or Disney and folded into the DC and Marvel publishing I think neither company could resist having the same universe as their mainline characters. True DC keeps Masters of the Universe separate save for a few crossovers and Marvel does own Star Wars and keep that completely separate from their mainline comics but I think TMNT would be folded in fully to their prime universes.

I definitely think Marvel would be more enthusiastic about their new acquisition. I could see Leonardo eventually joining the Avengers or Don temporarily replacing a member of the Fantastic Four whereas DC I feel would keep their status as outsiders more.

Both companies can do dark but I doubt either one could resist Fred Wolfisms. Batman/TMNT treated the material with a greater degree of seriousness than anyone expected but it still had it's fair share of pizza, skate boarding and cowabunga and the sequels where riddled with it.

I expect various creative teams would veer more one way than the other but as long as they struck a 'balance' I wouldn't mind TMNT being handled either of the big two. In fact I think either company would have the clout to put some genuinely edgier stuff out there in a way that Tom Waltz and IDW can't with Nickelodeon owning them.

[Leo656]

I mean at this point I forever expect SOME stuff from the original cartoon to creep into any new version of TMNT, and I genuinely don't have a problem with some callbacks. But I don't think any new version should be defined by, compared to, or beholden to that version by default. I think it should strive to not be "TMNT Jambalaya" as Andrew would say, but to in some way find a respectful balance between most/all of the most prominent versions of TMNT in spirit if not overtly. Most of them have something worth hanging onto, but not in equal measure and/or taking priority all at once. Like when Byrne was writing Superman, it had little bits and pieces of Every Single Thing that had come before it, but it was entirely its own new thing that merely took the best parts of everything before and presented it in a new and/or improved way. You CAN take a thread here or a patch there from all these different disparate versions of something and end up with NOT a toxic, sludgy soup, but a tapestry. The wisdom lies in knowing what to keep, what to leave, what to feature prominently and what to let rest in the background.

Like, obviously when they revamped Superman (and by extension, Lex Luthor) in 1986, they were gonna have Lex back in the old Super-Friends armor eventually because it was iconic. And they'd drop references to it here and there. But he didn't actually become "Battle Armor Lex, Mad Scientist Super-Villain" again in canon for just under 20 years, until a story finally came along that allowed them to revive it in a way that felt organic and not like a cheesy, forced throwback to a cartoon show. That's the kinda thing I mean when I talk about creatives "showing a little restraint".

I do think that someone writing/publishing a TMNT comic CAN show similar restraint while still trickling in familiar bits from the most prominent canon(s), but so far most of the attempts have been rather heavy-handed in doing so. Too much of the Fred Wolf throwbacks feel too forced and on-the-nose, to me. But I'm not against borrowing from it. Too much, though, is no good.

...See, I too can see Marvel sticking Leo or someone on the Avengers and that's kinda not what I wanna see, as interesting as it might be from a fan-wanky kinda point of view. :lol: Too fan-ficcy, and I say that as someone whose own scribblings sometimes skirt the edges of similar terrain. But I'd never charge people $4 a month to read it, is the thing. :lol: I feel like an "actual" TMNT product would need to be kept to a higher standard than that, ideally. But that's me!

Otherwise, fair points, well-spoken.

You write from what reality conjures up for you, which I appreciate. What's better is the world you inhabit to front your bills is complete Tex Avery to begin with, so the wackiness blends perfectly with the grounded stuff and doesn't feel unnatural or forced to meet the expectations of a franchise fanbase.

You make such sweet pillow talk, doll. :tgrin: But nah, thanks mate, you're a good egg. I do m'best.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

No. No. No. No. Modern mainstream comics writers have TOO BIG EGOS if they have worked for Marvel in the 21st century. Bendis is a great writer of dark, decompressed superhero storyelling (as long as it was Daredevil in the early 2000's), but his career has proven that he is too egotistical to handle something as precious as Leo, Raph, Mikey and Don... He would be a disaster for TMNT. JMS' Spider-man WAS NOT Spider-man. Peter Parker was a different character from 1962 to 2000. When JMS took over and gave us the god awful 9/11 issue and Sin's Past and the Gwen/Norman affair, he officially declared to the world that HIS Spider-man was not the same guy that fans knew and adored for 38 years. JMS could probably handle TMNT... if he reinvented them beyond all recognition.

Peter David DID work on the TMNT in the form of the 4Kids comic and he just wrote family dynamics and treated the TMNT like the Fantastic Four. Why? Because Peter David DOES NOT understand the TMNT. It was just a paycheck to him.

Marvel, back when Roy Thomas was in charge or when Archie Goodwin (RIP) was top banana... that environment... that sort of corporate atmosphere would have been a good fit for TMNT. Today? too many cooks in the corporate kitchen and a Marvel TMNT would be a cross between 2012, 2K3 and Bay TMNT... it would STILL be aimed at your kids and grandkids and their unborn unborn kids.

Leo656 I think implied it best when he suggested that Vertigo could probably handle it, but DC could not. Everytime DC gets the license to Doc Savage, The Spirit, (insert licensed character here) THESE DAYS, Batman always shows up. Hell, DC doesnt even have the license and IDW is half-ruining a great comic run by making stories about Batman and TMNT or Ghostbusters and TMNT. Because they can't resist a fan-wank. Even IDW can't help themselves.

Marvel licensed ROM Spaceknight way back in the 80's and guess what... Spidey and The Hulk showed up in his book AND he showed up in theirs. Now in our current time when those stories get reprinted ROM has to be deleted from whole stories and panels because guess who no longer has the rights to the Spaceknight.

Facts is facts and corporate culture today WILL NOT allow TMNT to be successfully adopted by DC or Marvel because fan-wanking will happen and Clark Kent will fall into a sewer and OMG. CROSSOVER... Or... Peter Parker will chase a rogue Hulk into Midtown Manhattan and Foot Ninja will be heisting a bank or something. IT JUST WON'T WORK.

EDIT: Everything in this post that was directed negatively toward DC Comics STRICTLY APPLIES TO THE MODERN ERA. It's ALL pretty much Dan DiDio's fault with the backing of Geoff Johns.


Wow, harsh, man. On all counts. You must not have read the same 9-11 book I did, because it literally brought me to tears. In the good way. As for the rest of his run, it's what got me reading Spidey in the first place, especially the arc involving his strained relationship with M-J finally being brought back together after years apart, (before the Quesada mandate to kill it) and was among some of the best Spidey stories ever. His confession to May and the Ezekiel arc were incredible. So, yes, he was a bit different, but it's because he had GROWN UP. Peter matured during that run, which I loved. He remained true to his character, but more responsible in his personal life, and much better at maintaining healthy relationships- until OMD regressed him back to mental adolescence.

Peter David's run on TMNT wasn't some of his best work, but it had potential, if they had allowed him to continue. And anyone who thinks he can't handle more serious work has never read his Sir Apropos of Nothing series. Fantasy with acerbic wit and depth, which TMNT would actually fit well with.

Bendis- I could say a lot about him, but I was thinking more of his alternate Ultimate universe stuff, where we saw some very different but interesting takes on familiar characters, who were still recognizable as Avenger, etc. So, yes, he COULD do it, just don't expect vanilla versions like we've had in cartoons.

[Leo656]

Actually, I kinda liked the first "Ultimates", come to think of it.

Everybody gets ONE. :lol: His Superman stuff mostly stinks, though. Not even, like, the way he does the character, that's actually not too bad, I think he does pretty much get how the Superman character works, it's just... Everything Else in the books isn't good. His characters' dialog is awwwwwful. He's almost as bad as Whedon. And he can script a Big Iconic Moment just fine ("Oh, look! It's Nuclear Man from 'Superman IV!' That's a thing I remember! He's never been in a comic before!"), but forget about giving those moments any context, nuance, or proper build-up ("So WHY is Nuclear Man here in this story, exactly?" "Because Bendis saw the movie once and he knows you did, too." :lol:).

Again, that's just based on the most recent and prominent stuff I've seen from him. And to be completely fair, people tell me he's no longer as good as he was in his heyday, so don't think I'm critiquing his entire catalog, most of which I haven't read.

As for JMS, I've barely read any of his Spider-Man, so I can't speak to that. But he's another one who was terrible on Superman after a ton of hype, and his He-Man cartoons were all over the place, quality-wise. Can't give him a ringing endorsement, either, based on that. He had twelve issues and carte blanche to do a Big Iconic Superman Story and he literally made him take a long, pouty walk. That was a very interesting choice that he made. Story's awful! :lol:

They pretty much rebooted the entire DCU with the New 52 because JMS's Superman run tanked. Not entirely, but that was a big chunk of it. For all the hype on bringing him in fresh off of Spider-Man, and all the money they were paying him, they expected people to jump on that Superman run like it was cake. But it was boring, so they did not. Lots of time and money wasted. Lots of angry and annoyed readers. DC saw their entire line in the sales dumpster and hit the reset button. Nothing's been right since. Not gonna lie... I might stay sour at JMS for a good long while for his role in that, unintentional as it surely was. How do you make Superman SO BORING? Only he knows. I've read a lot of bad Superman stories but very few flat-out boring ones. I just don't think he "got" the character. And that's fine as long as you're not getting paid a million dollars to send the book in the crapper for an entire year. Sigh.

I, uh... I thought the 9/11 comic was a bit corny and overdone. ((Shrug)) Didn't quite buy Dr. Doom crying about two buildings falling down when he commits repeated acts of global terror every alternating Thursday. But I'm also a jaded Northeasterner. Most of us "Up Here" when that whole shebang went down sort'a felt like much of the tribute sort of stuff was noble, well-intentioned, but a wee bit disingenuous. But again, we're all SUPER jaded. :lol:

[PizzaPower1985]

In fact I think either company would have the clout to put some genuinely edgier stuff out there in a way that Tom Waltz and IDW can't with Nickelodeon owning them.

Is that some sort of admission that the IDW guys can't go beyond [modern] Saturday morning cartoon levels of darkness, violent, sex, death and grit? For a long time I thought IDW was actually quite mature and made for older readers then I realized that their levels of "adulting" the comics guys do is kind of reminiscent of Marvel and DC in the 80's and early 90's.

Just once I wanna see those IDW chaps write an arc that pushes Nickelodeon's buttons.

[PizzaPower1985]

Wow, harsh, man. On all counts. You must not have read the same 9-11 book I did, because it literally brought me to tears. In the good way. As for the rest of his run, it's what got me reading Spidey in the first place, especially the arc involving his strained relationship with M-J finally being brought back together after years apart, (before the Quesada mandate to kill it) and was among some of the best Spidey stories ever. His confession to May and the Ezekiel arc were incredible. So, yes, he was a bit different, but it's because he had GROWN UP. Peter matured during that run, which I loved. He remained true to his character, but more responsible in his personal life, and much better at maintaining healthy relationships- until OMD regressed him back to mental adolescence.

Peter David's run on TMNT wasn't some of his best work, but it had potential, if they had allowed him to continue. And anyone who thinks he can't handle more serious work has never read his Sir Apropos of Nothing series. Fantasy with acerbic wit and depth, which TMNT would actually fit well with.

Bendis- I could say a lot about him, but I was thinking more of his alternate Ultimate universe stuff, where we saw some very different but interesting takes on familiar characters, who were still recognizable as Avenger, etc. So, yes, he COULD do it, just don't expect vanilla versions like we've had in cartoons.

Hey, sorry if I stepped on your toes there. We'll just have to disagree on whether Marvel can handle our beloved green testudines. But I'm glad you can enjoy what you can enjoy. And some fair points you've made here too. Frankly, if all that stuff's for you and you dig it... great! We need more people reading and enjoying modern comics and the works of some (recently) maligned creators because unfortunately we readers are all the industry has left. It's in a sorry state of affairs and has been for decades now.

I'm SO VERY glad that we can bring discussions of the BIG 2 and other comics into this thread because... whether DC or Marvel or Image or other companies have been as good as they used to be or not, I think we can use the tone of OTHER superhero books/properties as a blueprint for a TMNT that I think original fans and older fans would like to see.

[Leo656]

testudines.

Who the f*ck talks like this?! :lol:

You're alright, You.

We need more people here who casually throw $20 words around. I dig that the most.

[Whatswiththeheadbands?]

I've always thought that Nick were the wrong company to buy the TMNT rights, although I think Disney would be equally bad.

I'm not a huge DC fan as far as the Comics go. I don't have that many and what I've read is only Batman and a few when they had The Shadow licence (currently collecting them), but I feel with the tone they lend to their shows (regardless of the quality of them) and comics, I wouldn't have minded if they acquired the rights. The TMNT and Batman crossovers prove that the characters both work well with each other in both Comic book and animated forms, and I feel that the TMNT would work well with other DC properties.

The biggest plus would be with animated shows. A DC produced TMNT show would pay equal homage to the light-hearted side and also the grittier, darker side as well. Nick seem to just focus on the lighter side and ignore all the rest almost entirely.

I feel the casual fan would be partial to blame, as they just want to see new TMNT incarnations be similar to what they grew up with, and I get that. Nostalgia is a big draw in and selling point, but Nick again fail to see that there's multiple sides the franchise, each with fans that grew up with them and are nostalgic for them.

Again, I'm not saying DC would be the only choice, and I'm not overly familiar with their comic books as a whole. Any comic book company would also mean the IDW series wouldn't exist as it does today. It would exist in a similar way, but not published by IDW and it would subject to the other companies' style and work ethic.

[Leo656]

I've heard that the first DC "Shadow" mini-series was alright, but the ongoing was awful. What's your take on it, as someone who might have an informed opinion?

[PizzaPower1985]

[CENTER][/CENT

ER]Who the f*ck talks like this?! :lol:

You're alright, You.

We need more people here who casually throw $20 words around. I dig that the most.

Yeah, I like vocabulary. It comes from being a science geek and a techno-nerd. I'm a cpu technician by trade so maybe I'm a 'lil bit Donatello?

[PizzaPower1985]

I've heard that the first DC "Shadow" mini-series was alright, but the ongoing was awful. What's your take on it, as someone who might have an informed opinion?

My honest opinion? DC's Shadow comics were best in the 70's and 80's. I don't think the Dynamite Garth Ennis stuff is very good, but I loved Matt Wagner's Year One story. I was mildly intrigued when I saw the recent Batman-Shadow crossover but then read the first issue. Didn't Scott Snyder write that? Walter B. Gibson, the Shadow's creator, much like Conan-Doyle with Holmes, does not get respect when others try to write their characters. But hey, it can't get any worse than when Howard Chaykin wrote The Shadow in a pseudo future where he was a robot and carried an uzi.

If you want good Shadow stories in the comics, I recommend Denny O'neil's 70's run, collected mostly in a hardcover called The Private Files of the Shadow. Also, not collected in trade is The Shadow Strikes from the late 1980s. 31 issues and an annual full of pulpy gold.

EDIT: Special mention should go to Dark Horse Shadow comics in the 90's. 2 in particular: In the Coils of Leviathan and another called Hell's Heatwave.

[Leo656]

Oh, that's right, I'm sorry. I forgot that DC had a few runs with The Shadow. I was specifically talking about the 1980s ones. I forgot that they also had earlier runs with the character. But I'd heard the 1980s books were mixed at best. But I'd love to know what someone who actually knows about the character really thinks about it all. I've always been intrigued but know very little.

[CENTER][/CENT

ER]

Yeah, I like vocabulary. It comes from being a science geek and a techno-nerd. I'm a cpu technician by trade so maybe I'm a 'lil bit Donatello?

Well sir, the last time we seen such a fancy word 'round here, it was wearing spurs. :lol: That's how fancy it was.

[ZariusTwo]

As for JMS, I've barely read any of his Spider-Man, so I can't speak to that.

A lot of it is negated by One More Day, but if you want a real doozie, try out Sins Past. It was the first of the big editorial gut punches to the brand in the 2000s (little did we know what was to come), it's JMS's other biggest regret on the characters beside agreeing to write OMD for Quesada.

For anyone who hates Gwen Stacy as much as I do though, it's pretty awesome, and the ultimate zero f*ck given to how much she meant to Peter.

[Leo656]

Remind me who wrote "The Other"? Was that him?

That thing was like "Whaaaaaaat."

And was "Sins Past" the one where they said Gwen had a secret affair with Norman? See, stuff like that was what screamed at me that I was wise to drop the line in 1994 or whenever it was. Spider-Man was one of the few Marvel characters I kept up with even a little, and knew a lot of the basic lore, and then they started doing major retcons like that and I was like "Nah bruh."

And Norman being the mastermind of the Clone Saga doesn't make any sense no matter how many Secret Diaries and retcons they do. That was some oxshit. :lol:

[PizzaPower1985]

Oh, that's right, I'm sorry. I forgot that DC had a few runs with The Shadow. I was specifically talking about the 1980s ones. I forgot that they also had earlier runs with the character. But I'd heard the 1980s books were mixed at best. But I'd love to know what someone who actually knows about the character really thinks about it all. I've always been intrigued but know very little.

Yeah, some of my earliest collecting of comics was with The Shadow... The 70's Denny O'neil stuff was when DC had the license for a short time. There are 2 issues of Batman where The Shadow appeared as a background character... Bruce tells The Shadow that he was his greatest inspiration... written by Denny O'neil (it's what the BTAS Gray Ghost episode is based on.) The Shadow series itself only lasted like 11 or 12 issues. The Denny O'neil ones are the best (obviously).

MARVEL (when they were doing their line of hardcover graphic novels in the 80's) did a Marvel Graphic Novel featuring The Shadow called: The Shadow: 1941 - Hitler's Astrologer. Written again by Denny and painted by Russ Heath of war comics fame. A wonderful little book.

DC got the license again and Gerard Jones, a pop-culture history buff wrote The Shadow Strikes with Ed Barreto on art duties. Amazing stuff IF you're a fan. And probably the best Shadow comics EVER. Found mine on Ebay and had them made into 2 hardcover books.

There was the other series by Chaykin and Andy Helfer that was set in modern day and the future... awful. Just awful. Some of that may have been collected.

The 90's is where The Shadow was picked up by Dark Horse and was handled pretty well. Today, I think it's just a matter of The Shadow not getting the best writers.

[ZariusTwo]

Remind me who wrote "The Other"? Was that him?

Him and Peter David too (yeah, we're back to him again already:lol:)

And Norman being the mastermind of the Clone Saga doesn't make any sense no matter how many Secret Diaries and retcons they do. That was some oxshit. :lol:

I remember being more gutted they lost the baby in that one. I know Peter's kids have had it good in other books (Spider-Girl and Renew Your Vows), but stepping back and revealing Norman also kidnapped Aunt May and kept her in a hunting lodge for a year while some genetic double died in her place, as opposed to just kidnapping the baby and raising it to hate Peter or something, convinced me this franchise was creatively bankrupt. The Clone Saga didn't even convince me of that, I loved that s*it. Judas Traveller represent dawg!

JMS got it kicking a bit again, and then it died for ten years courtesy of Dan Slott and his pals who did nothing at the company but fail upwards. Now Nick Spencer's resuscitating it a bit, redeeming himself somewhat for Nazi Cap, but he'd better stick the landing on this Kindred mystery. A lot of the good will currently comes from fans expecting him to restore the marriage by the end of the run.

[Leo656]

Ah, sh*t, yeah, didn't they make The Shadow a Cyborg or something in that one DC run? That's what I heard, that they did a line of Present/Future "Shadow" comics and that it was the worst thing ever. It sounds terrible on its face. "The Shadow" in the present-day, let alone the future? I barely know much at all about the character but even the idea itself sounds awful. I always envision the character as a period piece more than anything, mostly represented best by the time and place in which it was contemporary. Maybe I'm wrong on that but when I think "pulp" I think Back Then, not Right Now. Definitely not Way Off A Ways From Now Yet. That just sounds lousy.

Dick Tracy's another thing like that. I know it's technically always been in print but I swear it lost a lot of magic once it got "too modern". I feel like it's best set in the 30s and just makes the most sense there. I'd hate to see a modern reboot/"re-imagining". I'd be sick to see him in ripped jeans and a yellow blazer with impeccably-groomed 5-O'Clock shadow, tie pulled away from his neck and the top shirt button open, his now-"ironic" yellow fedora cocked off to the side and sitting crooked on his head. OH, and all the other cops have the Two-Way Wrist Computer which is essentially Jarvis, but Tracy keeps an old-fashioned Two-Way Wrist Radio modeled after the 1930s model instead, because it's a "classic". And in the beginning of it, they'd demonstrate to the audience that his name was Richard but everyone called him "Dick" because he made flip, off-the-cuff remarks to people. Because that's clever and modern, you see. He'd be like Dr. House, but a detective. "Tracy", they'd call it. Because ain't nobody got time for titles with multiple words in them no more, grampa.

Yeah, "Hipster" Dick Tracy. That's what we'd get now. Watch, now that I said this dumb sh*t it'll be on CW's 2021 Fall Schedule. You can just see some guy with a fake tan and a bad haircut smirking at the camera while wearing all the above-described accoutrements. Gross.

---------------

Thanks Zar, that all sounds terrible! :lol:

[PizzaPower1985]

Him and Peter David too (yeah, we're back to him again already:lol:)



I remember being more gutted they lost the baby in that one. I know Peter's kids have had it good in other books (Spider-Girl and Renew Your Vows), but stepping back and revealing Norman also kidnapped Aunt May and kept her in a hunting lodge for a year while some genetic double died in her place, as opposed to just kidnapping the baby and raising it to hate Peter or something, convinced me this franchise was creatively bankrupt. The Clone Saga didn't even convince me of that, I loved that s*it. Judas Traveller represent dawg!

JMS got it kicking a bit again, and then it died for ten years courtesy of Dan Slott and his pals who did nothing at the company but fail upwards. Now Nick Spencer's resuscitating it a bit, redeeming himself somewhat for Nazi Cap, but he'd better stick the landing on this Kindred mystery. A lot of the good will currently comes from fans expecting him to restore the marriage by the end of the run.

How come nobody ever talks about the glory that was Marv Wolfman's Spidey run OR Roger Stern who's the 2nd greatest Spidey writer behind Stan? Stern would write circles around JMS and Slott is so overrated. The only thing he ever wrote IMO that was worth anything was Spidey-Torch: I'm With Stupid.

[Whatswiththeheadbands?]

Ah, sh*t, yeah, didn't they make The Shadow a Cyborg or something in that one DC run? That's what I heard, that they did a line of Present/Future "Shadow" comics and that it was the worst thing ever. It sounds terrible on its face. "The Shadow" in the present-day, let alone the future? I barely know much at all about the character but even the idea itself sounds awful. I always envision the character as a period piece more than anything, mostly represented best by the time and place in which it was contemporary. Maybe I'm wrong on that but when I think "pulp" I think Back Then, not Right Now. Definitely not Way Off A Ways From Now Yet. That just sounds lousy.

Dick Tracy's another thing like that. I know it's technically always been in print but I swear it lost a lot of magic once it got "too modern". I feel like it's best set in the 30s and just makes the most sense there. I'd hate to see a modern reboot/"re-imagining". I'd be sick to see him in ripped jeans and a yellow blazer with impeccably-groomed 5-O'Clock shadow, tie pulled away from his neck and the top shirt button open, his now-"ironic" yellow fedora cocked off to the side and sitting crooked on his head. OH, and all the other cops have the Two-Way Wrist Computer which is essentially Jarvis, but Tracy keeps an old-fashioned Two-Way Wrist Radio modeled after the 1930s model instead, because it's a "classic". And in the beginning of it, they'd demonstrate to the audience that his name was Richard but everyone called him "Dick" because he made flip, off-the-cuff remarks to people. Because that's clever and modern, you see. He'd be like Dr. House, but a detective. "Tracy", they'd call it. Because ain't nobody got time for titles with multiple words in them no more, grampa.

Yeah, "Hipster" Dick Tracy. That's what we'd get now. Watch, now that I said this dumb sh*t it'll be on CW's 2021 Fall Schedule. You can just see some guy with a fake tan and a bad haircut smirking at the camera while wearing all the above-described accoutrements. Gross.

---------------

Thanks Zar, that all sounds terrible! :lol:

The Shadow in DC's run started off in the mid 70s set in the 30s. They did a 1987 story where the shadow fought crime in the (then) modern day, then did a run set after that which turned him into a cyborg.

The run I'm collecting was a 1989 - 1992 run called 'The Shadow Strikes'.

But yeah, period set and pulp characters should remain in their time period. Reinventing them never, ever works.

[PizzaPower1985]

Ah, sh*t, yeah, didn't they make The Shadow a Cyborg or something in that one DC run? That's what I heard, that they did a line of Present/Future "Shadow" comics and that it was the worst thing ever. It sounds terrible on its face. "The Shadow" in the present-day, let alone the future? I barely know much at all about the character but even the idea itself sounds awful. I always envision the character as a period piece more than anything, mostly represented best by the time and place in which it was contemporary. Maybe I'm wrong on that but when I think "pulp" I think Back Then, not Right Now. Definitely not Way Off A Ways From Now Yet. That just sounds lousy.

Dick Tracy's another thing like that. I know it's technically always been in print but I swear it lost a lot of magic once it got "too modern". I feel like it's best set in the 30s and just makes the most sense there. I'd hate to see a modern reboot/"re-imagining". I'd be sick to see him in ripped jeans and a yellow blazer with impeccably-groomed 5-O'Clock shadow, tie pulled away from his neck and the top shirt button open, his now-"ironic" yellow fedora cocked off to the side and sitting crooked on his head. OH, and all the other cops have the Two-Way Wrist Computer which is essentially Jarvis, but Tracy keeps an old-fashioned Two-Way Wrist Radio modeled after the 1930s model instead, because it's a "classic". And in the beginning of it, they'd demonstrate to the audience that his name was Richard but everyone called him "Dick" because he made flip, off-the-cuff remarks to people. Because that's clever and modern, you see. He'd be like Dr. House, but a detective. "Tracy", they'd call it. Because ain't nobody got time for titles with multiple words in them no more, grampa.

Yeah, "Hipster" Dick Tracy. That's what we'd get now. Watch, now that I said this dumb sh*t it'll be on CW's 2021 Fall Schedule. You can just see some guy with a fake tan and a bad haircut smirking at the camera while wearing all the above-described accoutrements. Gross.

---------------

Thanks Zar, that all sounds terrible! :lol:

There are few characters in the "pulp" genre that can be modernized. The Shadow and The Green Hornet need to stay firmly in the past IMO. Tracy was best written AFTER Gould by Max Alan Collins in the 70's. It was set in the 70's and WAS AMAZING. Collins' Dick Tracy was collected in 3 black and white trades. Very fun update from the campy Tracy era where Dick went into space and got "far out, man."

One character that has been SUCCESSFULLY updated with the times is Lee Falk's The Phantom. He's one of my favorites too. But yeah, The Shadow should stay firmly in the 30's to the early 50's IF HE'S TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY.

[Leo656]

Hmmmmmmm, I do like a lot of 70s Dick Tracy and Max Allan Collins on him in particular, so I'll concede that you make a fair point! I won't go so far as to say it was "better" than the Gould stuff of the 30s and 40s with Flattop, Brow, Mrs. Pruneface, Itchy and all'a those gems. But yeah, a nice rebound from the unfortunate "Moon Maiden" era, for sure.

Collins also did some prose Dick Tracy stories for stuff like the "Secret Files" novellas around the time the film came out, and they were quite excellent.

Man, some'a you people really know your sh*t. Where y'all been hiding at?

[PizzaPower1985]

Hmmmmmmm, I do like a lot of 70s Dick Tracy and Max Allan Collins on him in particular, so I'll concede that you make a fair point! I won't go so far as to say it was "better" than the Gould stuff of the 30s and 40s with Flattop, Brow, Mrs. Pruneface, Itchy and all'a those gems. But yeah, a nice rebound from the unfortunate "Moon Maiden" era, for sure.

Collins also did some prose Dick Tracy stories for stuff like the "Secret Files" novellas around the time the film came out, and they were quite excellent.

Man, some'a you people really know your sh*t. Where y'all been hiding at?

And how did you like the Tracy movie? I loved it but unfortunately I watched it recently and man, it was a slog to get through. Beautiful looking, great cinematography... Even well acted... Very little story tho. Madonna got in the way. Delete her and the incessant musical numbers. Hell, I could probably edit that thing into an hour long masterpiece. Yeah, Collins ALSO wrote Batman in the 80's, just after Crisis... I loved his run but I'm in the minority. Collins made me fall in love with Jason Todd and then... over a long period... Starlin made me hate him. He should have stayed dead. For more on my unpopular Batman opinions, PM me.

As far as pulp... The 90's had The Shadow movie, the Tracy movie, The Rocketeer (I ADORE THAT ONE) and for funzies... The Phantom. It's cheesy as hell but I love the character so...

[Leo656]

Eh, I love the Dick Tracy movie unconditionally. It wasn't perfect but it was as good as could possibly have been done while making it a point to get all the major characters and villains in there. And they still missed quite a few. But it's a great "Cliff's Notes" version of Dick Tracy, if your movie's job is to try and represent 60 years of a strip's most iconic characters and history in two hours. You really can't do much better than that. They changed "everything" but it was spiritually and visually very faithful. To be authentic to the strips they would have had to pick just one iconic villain and center the entire movie around just them, which wouldn't have been anywhere near as much fun and probably wouldn't have been a good movie.

I don't think you can lose Breathless. She's the one really prominent femme fatale in Tracy's history and you can't have a throwback gangster movie without an aloof and sexy dame who plays both sides against the middle. That's how those stories go. The love triangle (and Breathless herself) ties all the plot threads together. A lot of the story just unravels otherwise.

I don't know, I don't think you can lose anything. If anything they didn't have enough room to work with.

You'll rarely hear me say this about anything, but the Dick Tracy movie is something I have absolutely nothing I can say I dislike about it. I love every single thing about it. It's one of my favorites.

Like, it's one of those movies that people generally don't even bring up as a topic around me, because they know it's gonna be a super-long conversation, let's put it like that. :lol:

[PizzaPower1985]

Eh, I love the Dick Tracy movie unconditionally. It wasn't perfect but it was as good as could possibly have been done while making it a point to get all the major characters and villains in there. And they still missed quite a few. But it's a great "Cliff's Notes" version of Dick Tracy, if your movie's job is to try and represent 60 years of a strip's most iconic characters and history in two hours. You really can't do much better than that. They changed "everything" but it was spiritually and visually very faithful. To be authentic to the strips they would have had to pick just one iconic villain and center the entire movie around just them, which wouldn't have been anywhere near as much fun and probably wouldn't have been a good movie.

I don't think you can lose Breathless. She's the one really prominent femme fatale in Tracy's history and you can't have a throwback gangster movie without an aloof and sexy dame who plays both sides against the middle. That's how those stories go. The love triangle (and Breathless herself) ties all the plot threads together. A lot of the story just unravels otherwise.

I don't know, I don't think you can lose anything. If anything they didn't have enough room to work with.

You'll rarely hear me say this about anything, but the Dick Tracy movie is something I have absolutely nothing I can say I dislike about it. I love every single thing about it. It's one of my favorites.

Like, it's one of those movies that people generally don't even bring up as a topic around me, because they know it's gonna be a super-long conversation, let's put it like that. :lol:

I'm that way with Batman'89.... A film that has plenty of detractors but I can't fault it for much. My preferred Batman starts in 1969 and goes to the end of the Alan Grant/Breyfogle (RIP) era. Tim Burton's film doesn't exactly condense 50 years of history into 2 hours but it gives us an icon in gothic drag and with an 80's flair that I love.

Another character that is pulpy and can be updated is Will Eisner's The Spirit. DC did so gloriously with Darwyn Cooke's series and in the 90's there were updates at Kitchen Sink Press. The Spirit can work in any time period as long as you keep pulp elements and the Eisner-isms.

But yeah, if TMNT is ever going to get out of its childish rut, I think we can all agree Nick has to either loosen its reigns or sell the property to someone who is going to see more than $$dollar signs$$.

[LeotheLateBloomer]

A lot of it is negated by One More Day, but if you want a real doozie, try out Sins Past. It was the first of the big editorial gut punches to the brand in the 2000s (little did we know what was to come), it's JMS's other biggest regret on the characters beside agreeing to write OMD for Quesada.

For anyone who hates Gwen Stacy as much as I do though, it's pretty awesome, and the ultimate zero f*ck given to how much she meant to Peter.

Was there any reason why JMS made that retcon of Gwen/Norman being a thing? That was just such a WTF moment when I first learned of this.:teek:

[Galactus]

Was there any reason why JMS made that retcon of Gwen/Norman being a thing? That was just such a WTF moment when I first learned of this.:teek:

JMS originally started the story with intention of making them Peter's children but then Marvel vetoed that so instead he had them be Norman's kids.

I don't know how true it is but I've also read he suggested that he wanted to Norman to use some chemical to subvert her will to get her to sleep with him but that was rejected also not wanting even a villain like the Green Goblin to be a rapist.

[LeotheLateBloomer]

I remember reading about Marvel not wanting Peter to have kids. Still, he could've gone for Harry instead of Norman since Harry is closer to Gwen's age.

Anyway, I do agree that the brand should be going in the opposite direction than what the Bay films and Rise were trying to do. The only silver linings are that we got material such as IDW, re-releases of the Image run, Batman vs TMNT, appearances in Injustice 2, and hopefully soon, The Last Ronin.

[Leo656]

Having them in Injustice 2 is so, so awesome. It's an amazing game anyway and everyone should play it, but having them in it is just the icing AND the cherry.

I can't imagine a TMNT-focused fighter with a similar engine and comparably-sized roster of characters. Although I'd probably prefer something more like Soul Calibur for a TMNT fighter. But either way. That'd be just incredible either way.

Heck with it, if they can't figure out how to make another beat-'em-up work for the time being, take a break from that idea and make a dedicated TMNT fighting game. They're probably easier to make, anyway. A real one, not something you can be done with in an hour like Smash-Up.

"Tournament Fighters" was almost 30 years ago now and "Smash-Up" was a shadow of what it could have been. A proper TMNT fighting game just makes perfect sense, we've seen how it can work with modern graphics and mechanics, and it's already long overdue. I say, let's get that now. And fighting games aren't even high on my list of favorite games, generally speaking. But some things just make too much sense and the Injustice experiment proves that it can totally work well.

[LeotheLateBloomer]

Truth be told, I would love to see a TMNT game in a similar vein as the Batman Arkham games or Spiderman for the PS4. I feel as though the combat and stealth mechanics (though Spidey could use some improvements in the latter) in those games could lend themselves to an amazing TMNT game. Or something like the Ninja Gaiden games.

[PizzaPower1985]

Oh man... The TMNT in Injustice 2. That's what I want the turtles to look like (with more realistic renderings) IN A LIVE ACTION MOVIE. The first time I saw those character designs I was like... now why didn't they look like this in the BAY films?

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Remind me who wrote "The Other"? Was that him?

That thing was like "Whaaaaaaat."

And was "Sins Past" the one where they said Gwen had a secret affair with Norman? See, stuff like that was what screamed at me that I was wise to drop the line in 1994 or whenever it was. Spider-Man was one of the few Marvel characters I kept up with even a little, and knew a lot of the basic lore, and then they started doing major retcons like that and I was like "Nah bruh."

And Norman being the mastermind of the Clone Saga doesn't make any sense no matter how many Secret Diaries and retcons they do. That was some oxshit. :lol:


To be fair, it was not so much a case of Gwen having an "affair" with Norman, as it was a very distraught Gwen being "comforted" over Harry's overdose by his dad, (read, he basically took advantage of her emotional state), and it was a one-time deal, anyway, one that she was utterly ashamed of afterward- so much so that she never told Peter or Harry! She disappeared for a while once she discovered the uh, results, and left the twin infants in his care, which was, of course, another mistake.

The entire storyline seemed a bit more for the shock to Peter, but it had its selling points.

As for The Other, that was "out there" for a reason. You had to be in at the beginning of that whole saga to really understand what was going on. It stemmed from Ezekiel's attempt to usurp the Spider Totem gift, and the PTB responding with a test to determine the TRUE Spider-Totem holder. There were several previous challenges, such as Morlun, but The Other was basically the anima to Peter's animus. His counterpart/destructor, if you will. It all culminated in one big arc that spanned the three main Spider books at the time- Amazing, Friendly Neighborhood, and Spectacular, which had three different writers. (David and Strazynski, on Friendly Neighborhood and Amazing, respectively, and I forget who wrote the third.) So if you missed an ish or two of any of those, you'd be lost. You literally had to read each issue of all three for a total of 12 issues, to get the whole story. I have it all in my collection, and some of it WAS a bit confusing, but still an interesting metaphysical tale.

[Whatswiththeheadbands?]

All of this talking about the Pulps is making me want a TMNT story in the style of the pulps.

[PizzaPower1985]

All of this talking about the Pulps is making me want a TMNT story in the style of the pulps.

That would be nuts. What'd be the scenario? Casey Jones a private detective? April as his femme fatale? Shredder and his Foot Clan could be like the city's big corrupt gangster and his organized crime "syndicate." Okay, maybe that one's too obvious. The Turtles and Splinter would be like film-noir spectators that just happen to get involved in the plot and end up saving the day while the private detective kind of just recalls the story at the end and the femme fatale just kind of is the sexy scenery that falls for the detective and befriends the strange mutant beasts?

Who knows?

[Leo656]

To be fair, it was not so much a case of Gwen having an "affair" with Norman, as it was a very distraught Gwen being "comforted" over Harry's overdose by his dad, (read, he basically took advantage of her emotional state), and it was a one-time deal, anyway, one that she was utterly ashamed of afterward- so much so that she never told Peter or Harry! She disappeared for a while once she discovered the uh, results, and left the twin infants in his care, which was, of course, another mistake.

The entire storyline seemed a bit more for the shock to Peter, but it had its selling points.

As for The Other, that was "out there" for a reason. You had to be in at the beginning of that whole saga to really understand what was going on. It stemmed from Ezekiel's attempt to usurp the Spider Totem gift, and the PTB responding with a test to determine the TRUE Spider-Totem holder. There were several previous challenges, such as Morlun, but The Other was basically the anima to Peter's animus. His counterpart/destructor, if you will. It all culminated in one big arc that spanned the three main Spider books at the time- Amazing, Friendly Neighborhood, and Spectacular, which had three different writers. (David and Strazynski, on Friendly Neighborhood and Amazing, respectively, and I forget who wrote the third.) So if you missed an ish or two of any of those, you'd be lost. You literally had to read each issue of all three for a total of 12 issues, to get the whole story. I have it all in my collection, and some of it WAS a bit confusing, but still an interesting metaphysical tale.

I mean, that makes sense, but it was definitely a far cry from the Spider-Man stuff I grew up reading. :lol:

I confess that at the time I just picked it up because it was the most recently completed "big" storyline and I liked the issues' cover art. I had a little bit more freedom to pick books up on a whim, back then.

Story pretty much does what it sets out to do, but when the last full storyline a person was following in "real time" was "Maximum Carnage" I think it's only natural there's gonna be a disconnect. :lol:

[Galactus]

Peter David is one of the great Spider-Man writers to me but his return to the character was unfortunate. He launched his book during a major crossover, he only got a few issues to do his own thing before going into the next big crossover Civil War and Back in Black immediately after that. Who knows what he planned for the character during his return but we clearly saw so little of it as was bogged down telling other people's stories.

I don't view The Other as a story written by writers so much as constructed by Marvel. They pushed JMS for it due to the popularity of his earlier stories about the Spider Totem and the Morlun issues specifically (and those were great issues) but in strange way it undermined those earlier stories.

JMS' early stories about the mystical Spider totems took a concept that many fans would think is bit 'out there' for Spider-Man but it worked because the stories were very well told and still very Spider-Man in their presentation. Morlun worked as a one off villain because he tested Spidey physically in a way we'd never seen before, bringing him back meant you either had to up the ante leading to extremes that don't quite 'fit' Spider-Man (which is what The Other attempted) or he is defeated more easily each time making him no different to any of Peter's rogues.

It also undermines the ending to that story. JMS gave Spider-Man fans the best resolution to his whole mystical spider God arc; he left it all open. Is he really a totem for the spider God and becoming Spider-Man his fate or was Ezekiel manipulating him the entire arc for his own ends and being bitten by the radioactive spider just a random accident after all? He left it up to the reader to decide and for those who liked all that stuff could continue to believe it whereas fans who were enjoying his run but not entirely sold on all that stuff had their classic Spidey set up back but then The Other comes along and throws down heavily on making all the mystical stuff 100% true and now a regular part of the mythos that has to crop up every few years.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Agreed, Galactus, though I felt it left plenty of wiggle room for BOTH takes. IE, although the mystical stuff was "true", it still left his origin virtually untouched lore-wise. Everything still happened the same way, we just finally got a kind of "reason" for it all! Which, of course, one could ignore or use as desired. And it gave Peter some good excuses to do a bit of soul-searching as to what HE believes in.

My biggest takeaway from that entire arc was that Peter was far more important than he ever realized, both cosmically/mystically and in the lives of others. In particular, it gave M-J a chance to shine as a character, especially the story about the spider-killer wasp creature, or the issue with Swarm. Even Morlun's later appearance, (which SHOULD have been his LAST- I don't see how he came back again after having his HEAD eaten!) really pushed the envelope of what Peter was capable of, as well as who he was. I was also happy to see him holding a steady, respectable job through most of the JMS/PD years. Teaching was a great fit for him.

[miru]

I do wonder if the franchise should explore the trippy, somber feel of the original comics some more. Would be interesting to see something like ?Old Times? again.

[PizzaPower1985]

I do wonder if the franchise should explore the trippy, somber feel of the original comics some more. Would be interesting to see something like ?Old Times? again.

Yeah, a million people on this forum feel the way you do. Most of the older TMNT fans are sick of all this childish crap.

[Andrew NDB]

Yeah, a million people on this forum feel the way you do. Most of the older TMNT fans are sick of all this childish crap.

Ninjas that can't kill. Goofy stuff. Toy-driven stuff. Blegh. I mean, I stopped caring when the sale happened but I can't start caring until there's a turnaround. But I doubt anyone up top cares about people like me, or the audience this could benefit. As in, people over the age of 5.

[Voltron]

Why should they? They'll make more money aiming at kids. This is how the free market works.

I don't think it would be a bad idea to have a kickstarter to see if we can't generate some more mature content for interested readers. It's a shame that portions of the fandom get left behind.

[PizzaPower1985]

Ninjas that can't kill. Goofy stuff. Toy-driven stuff. Blegh. I mean, I stopped caring when the sale happened but I can't start caring until there's a turnaround. But I doubt anyone up top cares about people like me, or the audience this could benefit. As in, people over the age of 5.

I agree completely. The frachise's return to greatness will definitely not happen on its current trajectory... I sometimes feel like writing a screenplay... it's on my agenda at some point... to show people exactly what I think TMNT should and could be, if we as fans and creators just abandon the "Nickelodeon mentality."

[Toxin45]

I agree completely. The frachise's return to greatness will definitely not happen on its current trajectory... I sometimes feel like writing a screenplay... it's on my agenda at some point... to show people exactly what I think TMNT should and could be, if we as fans and creators just abandon the "Nickelodeon mentality."

I mean mirage had some early installment weirdness. like volume 4 has not been completed and probaly never will be. We have the last ronin with laird and eastman doing this story.

[PizzaPower1985]

I mean mirage had some early installment weirdness. like volume 4 has not been completed and probaly never will be. We have the last ronin with laird and eastman doing this story.

Indeed. Mirage started doing the stories away from the focus of the main story... The art got cartoony around issue 16, and despite some good stories after issue 12 of volume 1, the story didn't really resume until Return to New York. Mirage is notorious for its weirdness and absurdity BUT when it's great it's F*CKING FANTASTIC.

If I were to write a film treatment it would be a very street level story... like an early Hong Kong flick or something... and if, in my wildest dreams, it ever got made would probably have to be shot in 16 mm to give it the low budget/gritty look.

I don't know...
As far as what TMNT is, what it should be or what it has become, it would be very difficult for me, or any professional filmmaker to top that first movie.

[Toxin45]

Indeed. Mirage started doing the stories away from the focus of the main story... The art got cartoony around issue 16, and despite some good stories after issue 12 of volume 1, the story didn't really resume until Return to New York. Mirage is notorious for its weirdness and absurdity BUT when it's great it's F*CKING FANTASTIC.

If I were to write a film treatment it would be a very street level story... like an early Hong Kong flick or something... and if, in my wildest dreams, it ever got made would probably have to be shot in 16 mm to give it the low budget/gritty look.

I don't know...
As far as what TMNT is, what it should be or what it has become, it would be very difficult for me, or any professional filmmaker to top that first movie.

Mirage volume 1 seemed to be the most remembered but volume 2,3and 4 were not as remembered along with both volumes of tales of the tmnt

[PizzaPower1985]

Mirage volume 1 seemed to be the most remembered but volume 2,3and 4 were not as remembered along with both volumes of tales of the tmnt

Mirage Vol. 1 is the most remembered because issues 1-12, Return to New York, The River (3 part story), Sons of the Silent Age, Masks, Shades of Grey and City At War (and various issues of Tales Vol. 1) are the best things EVER to come out of Mirage. Vol. 2 didn't have much to recommend it except for Tales Vol. 2 and Volume 4 started late in franchise history and went unfinished so very few people either know it exists or care to check it out.

At the end of the day, when we boil it all down, when all is said and done, Mirage Vol. 1 will be THE THING to read and be remembered for.

[miru]

Mirage Vol. 1 is the most remembered because issues 1-12, Return to New York, The River (3 part story), Sons of the Silent Age, Masks, Shades of Grey and City At War (and various issues of Tales Vol. 1) are the best things EVER to come out of Mirage. Vol. 2 didn't have much to recommend it except for Tales Vol. 2 and Volume 4 started late in franchise history and went unfinished so very few people either know it exists or care to check it out.

At the end of the day, when we boil it all down, when all is said and done, Mirage Vol. 1 will be THE THING to read and be remembered for.

Indeed so. Tales Vol. 2 as well is great to go with it. Also, I feel like DanganRonpa captures a lot of that somber, dreamlike feel of Mirage.

[D-ray]

Sadly, the TMNT franchise has taken the "kids" route abit too much in recent year, making things too goofy.
It's impossible to ask something in a more "mature" way.

However, Batman vs TMNT was kinda mature (comparated to what has been seen in recent years) giving us a little hope for that kind of content.
Or even better, DC might buy the TMNT franchise again!
(It's a bit of a douche phrase, but I always hated how Nick treated the TMNT)

[AquaParade]

Viacom is seemingly afraid to risk what they have to obtain something greater. This could be an MCU-level property. If Guardians can do it, TMNT can. But they have to step out of the kiddie-pool and figure out how to make the turtles interesting again for our demographic.

I do get the feeling the reigns have been slowly loosening up, following the failure of "Out of the Shadows" and "Rise...". Diminishing returns on the kiddie-stuff. We'll see how mature "TLR" turns out to be, but Batman v TMNT was a good sign.
Viacom can cover the toddler base with Spongebob anyway...TMNT is a property that could cover a lot of untapped ground for them if they choose to take the leap. I suspect they are eyeing it out slowly.

[Leo656]

Why should they? They'll make more money aiming at kids. This is how the free market works.

I don't think the approach is paying off. We know that Nick made a ton of money the first couple of years - way more than they paid for the property - but things are decidedly in a downturn, now. "Rise" failed to draw a crowd, now the suits are floundering, wondering what to do... completely oblivious to all the 30- and 40-year olds who are willing to drop a car payment on eBay for TMNT toys.

The 5-year olds aren't the ones who spend money on this brand, their parents are. Kids go through fads, and right now TMNT is just one more fad rather than the "evergreen" property it's supposed to be. Because once those 5-year olds turn 10, there is NO reason for them to stick with the brand unless they want to get made fun of for liking "little kiddy crap", which no kid likes going through.

Also, you're misinterpreting how the "free market" actually works. You're supposed to simply put your products on the market and let the audience take what they want. They're NOT doing that. Rather, they're putting out ONE flavor of products and telling everyone who doesn't like it that they're no longer welcome to be part of the fanbase at all. Their approach is the OPPOSITE of what the free market would encourage. And it's incredibly shortsighted on their end.

They'll eventually hit the same issue Disney did with Star Wars where they kinda realize they screwed up, and they might even try to walk it back, but I'm not inclined to think so. They'll shelve it, allow NECA and Playmates to peddle toys, and then every ten years they'll just aim at a new crop of 5-year olds, and wonder why they can't "grow" the property and make even more money with it. Nick, as a rule, doesn't care about anyone too old to buy "Make Your Own Slime" kits. The wrong Evil Corporation bought the brand, and that's just the way it is.


Viacom is seemingly afraid to risk what they have to obtain something greater. This could be an MCU-level property. If Guardians can do it, TMNT can. But they have to step out of the kiddie-pool and figure out how to make the turtles interesting again for our demographic.

Viacom can cover the toddler base with Spongebob anyway...TMNT is a property that could cover a lot of untapped ground for them if they choose to take the leap. I suspect they are eyeing it out slowly.

Well-spoken.

[miru]

I feel like that, for now (hopefully), the 2012 series is the peak of the franchise. It being as good at it was, even with the controversial rough patches and hanging plot threads, was likely a miracle.

[PizzaPower1985]

I feel like that, for now (hopefully), the 2012 series is the peak of the franchise. It being as good at it was, even with the controversial rough patches and hanging plot threads, was likely a miracle.

Yeah, that kind of thing comes down to subjectivity and preference. The older fans are going to say the pinnacle or peak is the more serious stuff, the 1990 movie probably, while the younger fans will probably appreciate that 2012 show.

[sdp]

We don't have enough OT stuff, we need more OT. Season 11 retconning the red sky seasons, new video games of the OT, more OT merchandise (we're doing ok with this but we need more). New show based on the OT, and a new movie following the OT, first movie can be season 1, second movie Eye of Sarnath etc. Please, more OT Nick, I hope you're listening, we're in a drought right now, it makes me so mad how we the OT fans are being ignored hardcore at the moment.

[PizzaPower1985]

We don't have enough OT stuff, we need more OT. Season 11 retconning the red sky seasons, new video games of the OT, more OT merchandise (we're doing ok with this but we need more). New show based on the OT, and a new movie following the OT, first movie can be season 1, second movie Eye of Sarnath etc. Please, more OT Nick, I hope you're listening, we're in a drought right now, it makes me so mad how we the OT fans are being ignored hardcore at the moment.

Everything has been largely based on the OT since Nickelodeon bought the franchise. The 2012 CGI cartoon, it's plots, tone and characters were greatly inspired by the OT series. The 2 newer live action films were took most of their ideas from the OT series. Most new toys are OT based as well. What more are you after?