Is it actually an improvement for Splinter to start out as Hamato Yoshi?

[neatoman]

My argument here isn't going to be about how little sense it makes for Yoshi to mutate in the same incident as the turtles. We can pretty much point to how the "closest living thing" rule makes no sense in Fred Wolf, Archie, Nick, Rise or any other iteration that may use it (either Yoshi becomes a turtle or the turtles becomes rats in that scenario). I won't focus on how the timeline of events in FW makes no sense, how Nick Splinter seems to forget valuable information by the time the series actually takes place or how Rise Splinter just doesn't do anything with what he logically knows. All of those are just the result of careless writing and IDW is the only one that handled the concept of Yoshi and Splinter being the same well, and even then they're not strictly the same person there but rather different incarnations of the same soul.

No, instead I'll focus on the big thing people seem to consider an improvement, his martial arts skills.

Now, on the surface it certainly looks like an improvement. In the real world there is no way for a rat remember complex human moves, nor can they really emulate them. So indeed, a human trained to use them would certainly know them better. It would indeed seem like Splinter the rat would never be able to teach anyone the moves, while Yoshi the human would. But there is a factor here that is overlooked, the timespan. See, what prevents Splinter from refining his abilities once he's mutated?

As stupid as the "learned it all from a textbook" explaination from the PD movies is, it did make me realise something important, who ever said his time learning martial arts stopped with observing Yoshi? He had fifteen years between mutating and sending out the Turtles to avenge Yoshi, that's plenty of time to figure how to fight properly.

Maybe you're thinking something along the lines of "Wouldn't him spending time training take away time spent on training the Turtles?" right now. The answer is not really. While it might be easy to simplify a teacher/student relationship as "teacher knows, passes it on" but that's not really accurate. It's more like "Teacher knows more than student, student finds flaw in teaching, teacher corrects their error, repeat". Anyone who asked plenty of questions in school should be aware of this concept, sooner or later a gap in the teacher's knowledge will be revealed, thus the teacher will learn to improve. Given changes to the curriculum, teachers are constantly learning new information themselves so they can be better teachers, part of how this happens is input from students. So it is certainyl conceivable that he can easily learn alongside his students.

So pretty much the only reason to make him start out as human because "it would make more knowledgeable" would be to make sure he taught his students quickly. But if he has the better part of two decades on his hands, constructive students, access to the Battle Nexus (i.e others to help), and yes, even a textbook, then it really shouldn't be necessary.

[Leo656]

For me, it's just marginally less silly if he's a human first. I mean, yeah, the whole concept is silly. But even at age 7-8, seeing pre-mutated Splinter throwing kicks in his cage - while kinda cute, I guess - just looked way too ridiculous for me to go along with it. I wasn't aware of the Mirage comics yet, and I figured they just "simplified" the origin to make the movie shorter or whatever, but I never liked it. Seeing it in live-action - poor animatronics/puppetry aside - just really cemented it in my mind as "Too outlandish even for THIS franchise". Finding out later on that the "real" origin in Mirage was the same as the movie didn't change my opinion.

The way the ooze/mutagen works is complete junk science in any version and never makes even the slightest bit of sense, so I don't really think about that aspect too much. It's "magical" and does whatever the writer wants, and that's that, no sense even thinking any deeper about it, or comparing how it works in one version to another; they're all nonsense. It's like "How can Superman fly?" There's no GOOD explanation and you're kinda not supposed to get hung up on that part. :lol:

For me, Splinter being Yoshi first just adds a lot to the story, at least in potential. It makes his rivalry with Shredder more personal, in the early goings-on there was some intrigue with the "Will he ever be human again?" stuff before they just kind of dropped it forever, it DOES make his martial arts prowess infinitely more plausible (even though having to "re-learn" everything while adapting to a rat's body was probably difficult)... I just don't think there's much of a reason for Splinter to merely be Yoshi's pet rat, outside of "Well... that's the way it was the first time they told the story." Like, that explanation essentially removes "Hamato Yoshi" as a character entirely in lieu of making him a plot device. And while it's certainly touching that a pet rat would adore his master so much that he'd spend the better part of 20 years training himself and his pet turtles to go on a Vengeful Murder Mission in honor of his memory... it's also EXTREMELY silly on its face. Just being honest.

I feel like it's one of those things people like better just "Because Mirage", but I honestly don't think it's any better. If you completely disregard the nonsense about How Mutagen Works and accept that it's just "magic", everything else about the story makes a lot more sense if Yoshi becomes Splinter rather than Splinter just being a rat.

I know people occasionally whisper about how Laird implied something about Splinter was always a "special" kind of rat to begin with, but 1. I've never seen anything in-canon within the actual books themselves to support that, but feel free to direct me towards it if it exists (letter column and blog musings don't count, I mean in-story stuff), and 2. That's hardly better, it's still silly.

I'm aware that this is mostly a personal preference thing, but hey... you asked. :trazz: Objectively, though, I do think Yoshi-to-Splinter makes more sense. You'd have a very hard time convincing me otherwise, put it like that. As you said, though, FW and various others don't exactly spin that particular yarn to its full potential, but I think that's just due to bad or lazy writers. I do think the idea in itself was an improvement.

[Andrew NDB]

I wouldn't mind it if they could find a totally non-hysterically comical way of doing it other than just "you become merged with the last life form you touched!" Because that's always been stupid.

My idea in "Origin" was that Hamato Yoshi imbued Splinter with a sliver of his soul in exchange for power from The Adversary.

[Leo656]

Maybe one of the sewer rats bit Hamato Yoshi and their comingled fluids are what hastened his mutation into a rat-dude. I'unno. That'd be close enough as a way of explaining Yoshi's mutation. Although even that would imply some kind of "rules" for how FW mutagen works. The fact that no such "rules" exist is a big part of the problem.

It's amazing how little thought went into the actual mutagen/ooze itself given how much of the story depends on it in any incarnation. But again, I doubt that anyone writing the stuff ever thought that people would be trying to hash out the Why and How of it all 30 years later. Back In The Day people were less likely to question the things they read and watched, they just absorbed them and accepted what they were given.

Not saying that's better or worse, just a general observation.

[Andrew NDB]

The Mirage ooze seems somewhat consistent in that it appears to just hyper-evolve whatever lifeform it touches. Like, touch some ooze if you're a wolf and you skip millions of years of evolution. Possibly forcing them down a bipedal path (the comics say it's Transmat waste but I venture maybe it could be also waste from the Utrom human skinsuits... that would explain a lot). In Mirage it even mutated trees similarly.

[The Turtle Terminator]

It does make slightly more sense for a human to know martial arts than a rat learning it from his cage

[Leo656]

The Mirage ooze seems somewhat consistent in that it appears to just hyper-evolve whatever lifeform it touches. Like, touch some ooze if you're a wolf and you skip millions of years of evolution. Possibly forcing them down a bipedal path (the comics say it's Transmat waste but I venture maybe it could be also waste from the Utrom human skinsuits... that would explain a lot). In Mirage it even mutated trees similarly.

That does seem the most consistent of the various explanations I've seen across the disparate TMNT media. In most others it's just "Wish Magic". Although even FW isn't as bad as some of the later versions have been. Nowadays it's like they totally just don't care.

Remember "The Great Disaster", when Earth-51 got hit with that plague that hyper-evolved all the animals into sentient, violently-aggressive humanoids, and turned any surviving humans into some kind of weird hybrids, and then they essentially blew up the Earth? Maybe the ooze was a byproduct of the experiments that eventually created that plague. :lol:

Man, "Countdown to Final Crisis" was a goddamn sh*tshow. But that part was creative. That one bit where the dog jumps over the table or whatever with the knife is so unintentionally hilarious that it cracks me up every time. Not sure that's what they were going for, but... :lol:

[newfan]

My idea in "Origin" was that Hamato Yoshi imbued Splinter with a sliver of his soul in exchange for power from The Adversary.

I like this, a good way to keep an element of Yoshi without the splicing if you don't like it.

I've said previously (I think we had a thread asking which we preferred) that I prefer Splinter being Yoshi. For me it feels like there is more credit as a Ninja Master where is the master himself, though that is more the idea of it rather than what we actually see. (credible Master either way)
I guess it also depends on the story they want to tell for the character and also if they are using Saki, how they want the rivalry/background to play out.

[Leo656]

I've said previously (I think we had a thread asking which we preferred) that I prefer Splinter being Yoshi. For me it feels like there is more credit as a Ninja Master where is the master himself, though that is more the idea of it rather than what we actually see. (credible Master either way)
I guess it also depends on the story they want to tell for the character and also if they are using Saki, how they want the rivalry/background to play out.

Yeah, this topic comes up at least once every couple of years. We'll be getting a poll about Red Bandannas vs. Colored Bandannas any day now, I'm sure. :trazz:

To your post, as I said I think the Splinter/Shredder feud is a lot more personal AND plausible if Yoshi and Splinter are one in the same. Him being just Yoshi's rat kind of pushes the whole story into silliness. "And then, instead of nibbling on my Master's dead carcass like any other rat would, I invoked a BLOOD OATH OF VENGEANCE!" :lol: That is one goddamn melodramatic rat, right there. And let's be honest, if it were reversed, and Saki let Yoshi live and only killed Splinter - let's leave Tang Shen out of it for a moment, since as far as I know she had no personal connection to Splinter The Rat and is thus not relevant to my hypothesis - you know that Yoshi wouldn't have sworn a lifelong feud and spent 20 years planning and executing it, he'd have just gone and bought a new rat, or maybe even upgraded to a ferret or something. Splinter's loyalty and devotion to Hamato Yoshi would not likely have been reciprocated in kind, is what I'm saying, so in looking at the Big Picture, the methods and motivations of Splinter The Rat are... well, they're questionable.

I'm part kidding but more serious. I think for as "human" a character as Splinter is generally presented, along with his very human and at times downright questionable motives and morality, it all makes slightly more sense if he was a human first. The martial arts prowess is definitely part of it, but there's lots of other reasons, too.

Splinter's origin, to me, was always one of those "Superman can only leap an eighth of a mile" bits of Early Installment Weirdness, which later writers polished and refined into something that worked a lot better. I don't think there's a lot of the story you lose by merging Yoshi and Splinter; if anything, I think you actually gain a lot more potential story mileage. Like, pretty much everything about the Mirage origin can stay the same if Yoshi becomes Splinter, BUT you also have a lot more potential stories because now the Shredder feud is more directly personal, without the "My name is Inigo Montoya, you killed my father, prepare to die!" stuff getting in the way. Like, Yoshi can potentially be the one avenging Tang Shen himself, just for one example.

Also, brief side note, but isn't it kinda weird, anyway, how much of the TMNT origin story revolves around long-dead people with no active involvement in the Here and Now? Oroku Nagi, Tang Shen, Hamato Yoshi... like whew, man, that's a lot of "So here's what happened Forever Ago and why these turtles hang out with this rat and why they all hate the guy in the razor suit" before we even get anywhere with the actual Plot. And IDW adds reincarnation into the mix. It's enough to make you dizzy.

I think that in general, the fewer degrees of separation between What's Happening Now and Why It's Happening, the better. So I've never had a huge problem with some characters being eliminated outright or others amalgamated or whatever else, if it prunes some of the dead buds off of the story branches. You never really hear much of Nagi anymore, for example, and while that's another debate all its own, it's ultimately probably for the best from a storytelling perspective. The whole "Turtles and Splinter vs. Shredder" thing only being a Proxy War for people who've been dead for decades is... well, it's rather silly if you frame it exactly like that. I know that's part of the whole "tragedy/Cycle of Violence" motif that Mirage partly leans on, but it's also, well, silly. If it's really just about Saki and Yoshi, and it's always been about them (along with Tang Shen, I do think she's kinda necessary), from Then to Now, I honestly think it makes everything a LOT better. There's a much greater personal conflict, much higher stakes, and many more stories you can tell.

Just for example, let's spitball about Yoshi and Tang Shen, for a moment. I love character stuff; if Splinter and Yoshi are one in the same, then for starters, it'd be neat to dig into a bit of that stuff. To begin with, he lived a whole life as a human, fell in love, had a relationship... these things were important to him, and they're things he'll ostensibly never get to experience again, things like being in love or the romantic touch of a woman. There's a lot of tragedy and poignancy in that. Obviously, nobody's going to tell those stories in any official media, but they COULD, is my point. It's just one of many, many interesting things you can do with the Splinter character if you merge him with Yoshi.

I rather feel like the FW cartoon had a good idea in merging Yoshi and Splinter - although the reasoning for his feud with Saki in that show was utter Bugs Bunny nonsense - but then completely did nothing with it at all after the first few episodes, which was a shame. But then, "Neat concepts with weak execution" was rather a trademark of that show, to be blunt about it.

If I were booking it, I'd most likely do exactly what the 1990 movie did EXCEPT have it pick up with Yoshi having to flee to America a'la the cartoons, for some reason, and then once again the rest of it would be like the movie. I don't think you need Nagi - although he was in the novelization of the film which implies that he was also in the shooting script; probably deleted his entire subplot for logistical reasons I'd guess - but I do think the Yoshi/Saki/Tang Shen stuff is pretty essential. I'm just not convinced that Splinter can't be Yoshi for the story to still work. If anything, it probably improves a lot of things.

BUT, it usually comes down to whichever version a person saw first. That's what I generally notice. :trazz:

[newfan]

Snip :trazz:

Agreed, the feud feels more personal for both parties if Splinter is Yoshi, or even in Andrew's scenario at least carries a little of the spirit, so there is still Saki's enemy himself there either in whole after suffering the hardship of mutation or in part spirit after being murdered. I like them to be fairly equal opponents also.

I don't want to go off too much on a 'what I would like more of' cause we have that everywhere but I could totally get my teeth into more of the feud/Yoshi and Saki's past.
So far as Nagi, I guess depending on the origin if they were exploring more of Saki's story then the influence and loss of his brother they could beef that up a little more maybe.

[The Great Saiyaman]

"What kind of misdeed did I do in a previous life that such a curse has been bestowed on me?"
- Splinter a few days after his mutation in "Lone rat and Cubs"

One thing about Yoshi becoming Splinter is his connection to the Rat King, as the both of them are actually quite similar: two people who have been rejected by humanity.

PIXUYsZE3aY
It is very much Batman and the Joker here.

Their interaction works so much better since Splinter had been human before.
Heck, it's also why it works in the IDW series.
https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-6dLC2YBEyEM/VHpA4YVMXpI/AAAAAAAAO3Y/9yYcu_7WdCQ/s1600/IDW3.png

[Leo656]

Agreed, the feud feels more personal for both parties if Splinter is Yoshi, or even in Andrew's scenario at least carries a little of the spirit, so there is still Saki's enemy himself there either in whole after suffering the hardship of mutation or in part spirit after being murdered. I like them to be fairly equal opponents also.

I personally tend to lean away from things such as "spiritual transfer" and reincarnation simply because some people don't believe in any of that stuff, and while it doesn't bother ME - I'm pretty much "Agnostic, But Hopeful and Open-Minded" - I know for a fact that it bothers some others deeply to see such things represented, to the point where they either wouldn't read or couldn't fully appreciate the story if that sort of thing was included.

In a perfect world, I'd want any TMNT origin story to be as accessible as possible to as many people as possible without muddying the waters too much. I know that the Mirage books in particular would occasionally dabble in "spirit world" stuff, but even then it can be argued that the protagonists of those stories are just tripping balls, or whatever. Once you start putting in spiritual stuff as Hard Canon you're inevitably going to lose people.

Again, it doesn't bother me specifically - as stated, I'm very agnostic but Peter David's "Supergirl" run was neck-deep in the Heaven/Hell stuff being taken completely literally, and I still argue that it's the most interesting run the character's ever had, even to this day - but I know for a fact it bothers some people. So if I were booking it for an actual audience, I personally wouldn't go into that stuff. But that's just my take.

Like, I feel bad that some people can't put their atheism aside to try and enjoy the IDW books simply because reincarnation is a plot point, but those people definitely exist. I think the origin story - seeing as how it's the bedrock of everything to come after - should be as "neutral" as possible, theologically speaking. But again, that's me, and I'm mostly playing Devil's Advocate.

[newfan]

So far as any spiritual elements with TMNT, not used or subtly used (just a few elements) both suit me. Far out stuff dominating the version or strong magical powers, not so much. Saying that, I did enjoy the arc in 2k3 (an unpopular opinion) but as that one arc, I would not have liked that series wide. As they decided to go a different route with Shredder, the demon stuff was a way of writing in Saki I guess?. I also prefer Saki to be a man and threat in his own right, (though different things suit different versions) but that would be another thread :)

[Leo656]

Was that the Ninja Tribunal arc? I've heard that one was a bit divisive. I really ought'a get around to watching that. I'm terrible. It always sounded intriguing I just keep forgetting to watch it.

As stated, they're all just stories so nothing spiritual or mystical or fantastical really bothers ME, but I'm aware they can be off-putting to some. I also think you get more leeway as stories go on to get more "out there" with some things, but I feel like origins - since they're a starting point and therefore should ideally be really accessible - should be relatively "grounded" as much as possible, but that there's a lot more freedom later on to work more fantastic ideas into the mix.

It's like if TMNT were a DC property, Frank Miller would write the ultra-grounded and realistic "TMNT: Year One" origin story, and then 15 years later Geoff Johns would come along and do "TMNT: Secret Origin" and slip all the mystical/spiritual/reincarnation jazz in between the pages of the original story just to be cheeky while swearing up and down it's still the exact same story. :lol: But by then, those elements would play a little better because you've become familiar with the characters and the scenarios. You're willing to accept a little more.

[neatoman]

Was that the Ninja Tribunal arc? I've heard that one was a bit divisive. I really ought'a get around to watching that. I'm terrible. It always sounded intriguing I just keep forgetting to watch it.

It's uh... Well, let's try to break down what happened there:


It turned out that Shredder was originally a demon who was defeated by the Ninja Tribunal
As it turns out, Hamato Yoshi was groomed to be the warrior to prevent his return.
Because he died prematurely, the Turtles are forced to take his place and are given magic medallions and weapons.
Shredder comes back to life and the Turtles have to fight him with their new magic powers.
All five of them turn into Dragons and does battle over the city.
Shredders knocks them out of it and the medallions break.
Out of the medallions pops the ghost of Yoshi and slices Shredder in half.
Turns out all this nonsense was part of destiny.


It's... Not terribly elegant...

Anyway, I'm fine with the reincarnation angle since you don't have to jump through hoops just to make the mutation and the circumstances around it work. It's primarily the Humans to Mutants concept I hate because it always, always, always, always leads to a slippery slope of horseshit to poorly thought out characters like Muckman and inconsistant rules about what the mutagen does. But I don't think it adds much to have him be Yoshi himself in the first place. He's still going to have plenty of reason to despise the Foot and Shredder, he still has reason to feel miserable about his existance etc.

[Leo656]

Haha. Well, I own the DVD, so once I re-stock the ol' "Funny Cigarettes" supply I know what I'm watchin'. :lol: Sounds like a perfect fit. :tgrin:

[cammy85]

The way I see it, Splinter as a pet rat learning from and mimicking human Hamato Yoshi's moves gives him an advantage as he would know how rat and human bodies work whether mutated or not. The turtles of course were mutated form turtles, not humans; so they would also have that advantage because of Splinter's rat experience. Human-originated Hamato Yoshi had to adapt, rat-originated Splinter didn't have to.

[Coola Yagami]

It makes more sense if Yoshi is Splinter. We have to remember the Turtles trained under Splinter so in essence all the super amazing martial arts and flipping around and whatnot we see the Turtles do came from him. And that came from.... just watching someone else do it. Right.

I can marathon Bruce Lee and other martial arts movies all weekend, I'm not going to somehow know how to do the actual moves, let alone grab 5 teens and teach them moves with enough skill to take down actual ninjas.

[Leo656]

As someone who still occasionally play-fights for gas money, I'll co-sign that.

I watched wrestling very closely my whole entire life before I ever trained to actually do it, and it absolutely, absolutely DID help - point of fact (and I swear to you, I'm not jacking myself off here, this is Bible truth), when I took my first "Bump & Roll" drill at Pro Training, I nailed it so fast that the trainer asked me "Are you SURE you never did this before?" and I just shrugged and answered truthfully, "I just watch it on TV", which legit got a big laugh out of the crew. So careful and close observation over several decades CAN help you grasp some of the nuances of a physical, combat-based sport or martial art, yes.

But you can't MASTER it unless you've had Master-level training. You ever watch guys wrestle who "trained" in their backyard or by playing video games? Maybe they can "pass" for knowing what they're doing in front of a small crowd who don't quite "get" what they're looking at, but if you compare them to, say, a Monster Factory guy or a guy on TV, it's night and day, the "Yard 'Tards" by comparison look like a couple of monkeys trying to f*** a coconut. Furthermore, that's more like co-operative slap-fighting than a "real" martial art, but it's STILL impossible to get good at it without a million hours of actual, physical hands-on training. I can only imagine that it's 10x more intense when you're actually training to fight Life or Death style.

Maybe if it weren't so constantly reinforced that Splinter and the Turtles are MASTER Ninjas. Like, if maybe they thought or assumed that they were, but in truth they were kinda incompetent, and that was a running gag... then "learning by watching" is plausible, but I still wouldn't book it that way. If they are indeed Master-level martial artists, then that means it only really works if Yoshi is Splinter and retains all his previous training and muscle memory. Yeah, he'd have to adjust, but that's not altogether impossible. People who lose their legs and get prosthetics can learn to run again, for example; that's different, but what I'm saying is that people can overcome drastic bodily changes and return to some level of their previous function, even if it takes a while and a lot of hard work.

If Splinter was "just" a rat, and all he ever did was WATCH Yoshi do all this cool martial arts stuff... then no, that totally isn't even a little bit plausible.

That's generally the line at which we all start talking about just how "plausible" we want this story about karate turtles and their pet rat to actually even be in the first place. :lol: I'm Just Sayin', though, that if we want to keep even one foot in "reality", then Rat Splinter doesn't work. You nailed that one.

[IndigoErth]

No, instead I'll focus on the big thing people seem to consider an improvement, his martial arts skills.
Primarily the reason I prefer Yoshi as Splinter.

So pretty much the only reason to make him start out as human because "it would make more knowledgeable" would be to make sure he taught his students quickly.
Oh, but wait, it's not my only reason.

The martial arts may be one thing -- albeit not entirely easy to accept a rat in a cage would ever be capable of teaching it later -- BUT... Look at the Turtles, they aren't a bunch of dumb slobs (relatably messy lair aside, esp as teens), they're relatively decent young men who have clearly had at least some amount of home schooling in other subjects, and other non-fighting skills including some semblance manners (albeit that varies per Turtle), as best a rat dad can manage given their situation.

Maybe we can pretend a pet rat can mimic martial arts moves and somehow teach it later... but it's even harder to accept that a pet rat grasped literacy, math, etc and would be able to teach it later, let alone learn it himself or even be interested.

I suppose if they watched Sesame Street as little kids like a lot of us it would have taught them something, but it would only be scratching the surface and never anywhere near enough.

I kind of feel like without human Yoshi still wanting the basic amenities of a human life he used to live (a home more or less, refrigerator, tv, beds, an education for his kids, etc) they aught to be living a rather different life had Splinter always been a rat.

[Leo656]

Primarily the reason I prefer Yoshi as Splinter.


Oh, but wait, it's not my only reason.

The martial arts may be one thing -- albeit not entirely easy to accept a rat in a cage would ever be capable of teaching it later -- BUT... Look at the Turtles, they aren't a bunch of dumb slobs (relatably messy lair aside, esp as teens), they're relatively decent young men who have clearly had at least some amount of home schooling in other subjects, and other non-fighting skills including some semblance manners (albeit that varies per Turtle), as best a rat dad can manage given their situation.

Maybe we can pretend a pet rat can mimic martial arts moves and somehow teach it later... but it's even harder to accept that a pet rat grasped literacy, math, etc and would be able to teach it later, let alone learn it himself or even be interested.

I suppose if they watched Sesame Street as little kids like a lot of us it would have taught them something, but it would only be scratching the surface and never anywhere near enough.

I kind of feel like without human Yoshi still wanting the basic amenities of a human life he used to live (a home more or less, refrigerator, tv, beds, an education for his kids, etc) they aught to be living a rather different life had Splinter always been a rat.


I think you and I have given this subject way more thought than it merits, on account of we pretty much have identical feelings on this. :lol:

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Primarily the reason I prefer Yoshi as Splinter.


Oh, but wait, it's not my only reason.

The martial arts may be one thing -- albeit not entirely easy to accept a rat in a cage would ever be capable of teaching it later -- BUT... Look at the Turtles, they aren't a bunch of dumb slobs (relatably messy lair aside, esp as teens), they're relatively decent young men who have clearly had at least some amount of home schooling in other subjects, and other non-fighting skills including some semblance manners (albeit that varies per Turtle), as best a rat dad can manage given their situation.

Maybe we can pretend a pet rat can mimic martial arts moves and somehow teach it later... but it's even harder to accept that a pet rat grasped literacy, math, etc and would be able to teach it later, let alone learn it himself or even be interested.

I suppose if they watched Sesame Street as little kids like a lot of us it would have taught them something, but it would only be scratching the surface and never anywhere near enough.

I kind of feel like without human Yoshi still wanting the basic amenities of a human life he used to live (a home more or less, refrigerator, tv, beds, an education for his kids, etc) they aught to be living a rather different life had Splinter always been a rat.

Who taught Mirage, New Line and 4 Kids Splinter reading, as he was left alone in the sewers after Oroku Saki killed Hamato Yoshi? No increased intelligence can teach you reading without interacting with someone else.

[IndigoErth]

Exactly, and the main issue I find with them and the original Splinter concept. I mean, it's not a bad concept and respect it as the original, and easily put aside just by dismissing it as a fictional "logic" and all and all it probably isn't an important detail, but when you think about it...it definitely raises some questions. :trazz:

[FredWolfLeonardo]

As stupid as the "learned it all from a textbook" explaination from the PD movies is, it did make me realise something important, who ever said his time learning martial arts stopped with observing Yoshi? He had fifteen years between mutating and sending out the Turtles to avenge Yoshi, that's plenty of time to figure how to fight properly.


Rat Splinter may have had 15 years to learn Ninjitsu in the sewers through a book or remembering his master's movements, but its still nowhere as robust as Yoshi Splinter having already learned ninjitsu during his years as a human through more proper methods.

In a sense, 2012 Splinter has the best of both worlds.
He has years of ninja training as a human unlike most Splinters out there, and had 15 years in the sewers to refine his abilities unlike Fred Wolf Splinter who is implied to have been with the turtles for a short time (seeing as how they mutated directly into adults rather than children).

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

seeing as how they mutated directly into adults rather than children.

I don't think the Fred Wolf turtles mutated directly into teenagers. All we see are flashback scenes, maybe just a product of imagination in April O'Neil's mind as Splinter tells her their backstory. (The same scenes are seen in the Archie Comic, where we're later exposed to events from their pre-teenage years).

[neatoman]

I don't think the Fred Wolf turtles mutated directly into teenagers. All we see are flashback scenes, maybe just a product of imagination in April O'Neil's mind as Splinter tells her their backstory. (The same scenes are seen in the Archie Comic, where we're later exposed to events from their pre-teenage years).

But then we still have the issue of Shredder waiting years to use his Technodrome... No matter how you look at it, the timeline makes no sense.

[victory_angel]

I kinda like the idea of Splinter and Hamato Yoshi being one and the same. I have nothing wrong with Splinter being just a loyal pet. However the downside is that rats live for roughly 2-3 years in the wild and 4-5 if they are store bought pets.

So Hamato Yoshi would not have had Splinter as a pet for more then two years. If you go by the 4kids version then Yoshi would have had Splinter for a year and a half to two years at most. Even if Splinter was able to mimic Yoshi?s movements he couldn?t learn everything Yoshi knew in that Span of time.

However asides from being Splinters owner, Hamato Yoshi is largely a non-entity as a character. Even though some incarnations such as the 4kids and IDW incarnations do try to give him some development as a character.

By having Hamato Yoshi become Splinter the story is able to flesh out Yoshi as a character outside of the love story that becomes the catalyst for the Turtles origin

[PizzaPower1985]

I would agree that Splinter as Yoshi first makes the most sense, but since TMNT was supposed to originally be a parody, a completely silly concept that was played straight (particularly the origin found in #1 way back a year before my birth), I think it worked for Mirage. IDW let us have our cake and eat it too with the reincarnation plot. Yoshi was a man in Feudal times but also in present day a lab rat gets mutated into a ninja master from Yoshi's DNA, so in a way it was giving 87 toon fans what they wanted and Mirage fans what they wanted and it all still works.

Splinter works better as a man first.

[Leo656]

Regarding ages and lifespan of mutated characters, it was always in my head that the mutagen provided them with more longevity. Just seems to make sense. It never stated outright anywhere but it can force a lot of things to make more sense if you choose to look at it that way. ((Shrug))

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Agreed. Even though my first real exposure was to the movie's origin, I always thought the FW one made more sense, especially considering the difficulty of a normal rat ever even being physically capable of doing certain fighting moves. Rat bodies are built very differently from human ones, and even after mutating, he would have had a great deal of trouble learning to adapt his body structure to perform some moves. So it makes sense that he would have to be human first to even LEARN them in the first place!

Same goes for the turtles themselves, though they at least had the advantage of Splinter's experience to teach them, but they would still have had to adapt or even drop some moves completely from their fighting training. For one thing, turtle shells are very rigid, so anything requiring bending the spine would either have to be adapted to fit around that handicap, or would be right out.

The biggest hurdle for me is how would Splinter ever learn to read, write, do math, or speak just from watching Yoshi? Sorry, but rats just aren't THAT smart. Even if he could learn the rudiments of spoken language, writing would be just marks on a page. It ONLY works if he WAS Yoshi.

[PizzaPower1985]

Regarding ages and lifespan of mutated characters, it was always in my head that the mutagen provided them with more longevity. Just seems to make sense. It never stated outright anywhere but it can force a lot of things to make more sense if you choose to look at it that way. ((Shrug))

Well that has to be the logic behind IDWs Leatherhead because he came from the 18th century (pirate times) and then was mutated and exists in current 21st century, so he obviously got some longevity because alligators live 30 to 50 years and crocs live a max of about 70 to 75 years.

[PizzaPower1985]

Agreed. Even though my first real exposure was to the movie's origin, I always thought the FW one made more sense, especially considering the difficulty of a normal rat ever even being physically capable of doing certain fighting moves. Rat bodies are built very differently from human ones, and even after mutating, he would have had a great deal of trouble learning to adapt his body structure to perform some moves. So it makes sense that he would have to be human first to even LEARN them in the first place!

Same goes for the turtles themselves, though they at least had the advantage of Splinter's experience to teach them, but they would still have had to adapt or even drop some moves completely from their fighting training. For one thing, turtle shells are very rigid, so anything requiring bending the spine would either have to be adapted to fit around that handicap, or would be right out.

The biggest hurdle for me is how would Splinter ever learn to read, write, do math, or speak just from watching Yoshi? Sorry, but rats just aren't THAT smart. Even if he could learn the rudiments of spoken language, writing would be just marks on a page. It ONLY works if he WAS Yoshi.

You are correct! The story doesn't really make sense unless somehow either Yoshi became a rat OR the mutagen made the rat somehow so human and so sentient that he automatically became a polymath and familiar with ninjitsu, literacy, mathematics etc.

[Leo656]

I often wonder if Kev and Pete ever wish they'd put more thought into their drunken, marijuana-haze scribblings from almost 40 years ago, simply because at the time they had no idea anyone would ever be taking this stuff so seriously? :lol:

I like to imagine Pete occasionally skimming this forum and then re-enacting the Shatner At The Trek Convention skit from SNL. :trazz:

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Lol! That would be too funny. I might even pay to see that!

As for their lifespans, I could see Splinter gaining a longer lifespan from the mutagen, which would explain why he still seems to be very old in most versions, but even if he was maybe 5-6 years old at the time of his mutation, that would still mean he would be far too old to do much fighting- or training!

[PizzaPower1985]

I often wonder if Kev and Pete ever wish they'd put more thought into their drunken, marijuana-haze scribblings from almost 40 years ago, simply because at the time they had no idea anyone would ever be taking this stuff so seriously? :lol:

I like to imagine Pete occasionally skimming this forum and then re-enacting the Shatner At The Trek Convention skit from SNL. :trazz:

There's definitely A LOT of stuff that could have been better plotted and thought out after the initial issue. If the Mirage series as a whole had stuck with the types of storytelling that we saw in the first 12 issues, the Northampton introspective style, Return to NY and City At War, Eastman and Laird today would be regarded as the Alan Moore's of the black and white underground comics scene. There was a lot of genius in what they did (and other writers like Rick Veitch) but a lot of Mirage suffers from tonal shifts and stories that suck.

[Leo656]

Speaking of Veitch, ever read Brat Pack? I'm sure you have, but it bears asking. I'm always surprised at who has and hasn't read it.

Also, did we just compare Eastman & Laird to Alan Moore? Whoa there, chief, let's not say things we can't take back. :lol:

[PizzaPower1985]

Speaking of Veitch, ever read Brat Pack? I'm sure you have, but it bears asking. I'm always surprised at who has and hasn't read it.

Also, did we just compare Eastman & Laird to Alan Moore? Whoa there, chief, let's not say things we can't take back. :lol:

No. I'm serious. I think the best of the Eastman and Laird team in those books were as good as much of what Moore has done. Outside superheroes and V For Vendetta Moore never really captured my interest.

And yeah, I love Veitch so of course I read it. Wasn't it partly inspired by the death of Jason Todd?

[Andrew NDB]

You are correct! The story doesn't really make sense unless somehow either Yoshi became a rat OR the mutagen made the rat somehow so human and so ts, literacy, mathematics etc.

He was never supposed to be a normal rat. Peter just says he... forgot what the plan there was.

[Leo656]

No. I'm serious. I think the best of the Eastman and Laird team in those books were as good as much of what Moore has done. Outside superheroes and V For Vendetta Moore never really captured my interest.

And yeah, I love Veitch so of course I read it. Wasn't it partly inspired by the death of Jason Todd?

That I'm not entirely sure of. But it wouldn't surprise me, either.

You know Garth Ennis read "Brat Pack". :lol: I love The Boys (comic, anyway; less interested in the show as they changed way too much of the story to really be able to retain my enthusiasm, as I REALLY love the books and don't think they needed any tinkering), but upon reading it, it's like "Yeah, some of this feels... familiar." :lol: Not that that's bad, though.

I have not read everything Alan Moore ever put out, but between "Watchmen", "V For Vendetta", his Superman stuff, and "Lost Girls", he's on a whole other level, to me. I personally feel that Eastman, Laird, or a combination of same, would frankly need a rocket up their ass to be able to even come close to Alan Moore's ability.

Individually, neither Kev or Pete is a "great" writer. They definitely did better as a collaborative unit, but even then... I don't think their best stuff comes close to Moore's, or even Morrison's frankly.

I mean, you know, "opinions". :) I was like 20 the first time I read Mirage so I don't really have a romantic fixation with it. It's fine. I just notice that's a prominent variable much of the time. It wasn't one of the things that shaped my view of the TMNT or their universe and I came into it way after the fact, and I notice that to people with similar experience to myself, Mirage is generally "meh".

It's perfectly fine to not agree, though. :)

But regarding Eastman & Laird... between Vol. 4 and "Bodycount", neither guy makes my Mount Rushmore of Comic Book Writers. :trazz: Just gotta be honest!

He was never supposed to be a normal rat. Peter just says he... forgot what the plan there was.

I knowwwww, but that's some "Dumbledore Is Gay" stuff. Postscripts don't count, if it's not in the official text it's not in the text.

That may have been an idea they had Once Upon A Time but they had 30 years to actually do something with it and they didn't. So it's stricken from the record.

Doesn't matter if Peter Parker was "really" the Clone and Ben Reilly was the "Real" Peter all along. That might have been The Original Idea, but that's NOT what happened, so it doesn't count.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Never a normal rat? Then what was he? An escapee from the NIMH experiments? (I am currently working on a short story using exactly that concept, as it happens....)

[PizzaPower1985]

He was never supposed to be a normal rat. Peter just says he... forgot what the plan there was.

Well, that first issue reads excellently and the origin is great. I just think a revision makes more sense.

[Leo656]

Never a normal rat? Then what was he? An escapee from the NIMH experiments? (I am currently working on a short story using exactly that concept, as it happens....)

Well, like I said, "postscripts" don't count.

I can totally believe that Laird had it on a notepad somewhere that Splinter The Rat had some mysterious "Secret Origin" - Geoff Johns style ;) - but they never executed that idea, so it's just hot air, now. Means nothing.

I DO generally defer to Word Of God BUT, again... they had a lot of years to make it Official Canon and they never bothered. SO. It couldn't have been THAT important.

You snooze you lose, f*ck-face! :lol:

[Andrew NDB]

Well, that first issue reads excellently and the origin is great. I just think a revision makes more sense.

A... clarification, for sure.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Well, like I said, "postscripts" don't count.

I can totally believe that Laird had it on a notepad somewhere that Splinter The Rat had some mysterious "Secret Origin" - Geoff Johns style ;) - but they never executed that idea, so it's just hot air, now. Means nothing.

I DO generally defer to Word Of God BUT, again... they had a lot of years to make it Official Canon and they never bothered. SO. It couldn't have been THAT important.

You snooze you lose, f*ck-face! :lol:


Yeah, that was kind of what I was getting at. Nothing was ever mentioned in any version of the origin, so.....

[Leo656]

And they had FOR-EV-ER to try and fit it in somewhere. :lol:

That's why it's bullsh*t. Laird had 30+ issues over 8 years or so ALL to himself in Vol. 4 and he never once thought to himself, "Oh, wait, yeah... that Splinter thing"? Not to mention all those issues of Tales Vol. 2.

The fact that it never came up at all, ever, even when Laird had complete control over the story? COME ON, NIKKI!

I'm like Roddy Piper over here with it.
"So Pete, what was that Big Secret about Splinter The Rat you always tease us with?"
"Well, I..."
((Yanks the mic away)) "Didn't wanna know that bad!" :lol:

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Lol you're funny today! (And I got off work early, so I'm sitting here bored waiting for my check, for the record.)

[Leo656]

I'm funny every day! But moreso when I'm sleep-deprived and riding the ol' 4:20 Express if'n ya catch my meaning. :trazz: So yeah this week's goin' swell. :tgrin:

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Gotcha. Man I'm really dreading that walk in 92? Texas heat when I get my check. Bank, then Walmart, then home. Gonna be fun. (And I use the term loosely.)

Edit. It keeps putting the degree symbol in as a question mark. Weird.

[Leo656]

I keep seeing the ? thing and it's not happening for me yet, so that's weird.

Also, that sounds dreadful. I'd ask about a bike but Lord knows I've asked myself the same question so I know Sh*t Happens and I don't wanna pry.

[neatoman]

I keep seeing the ? thing and it's not happening for me yet, so that's weird.

Also, that sounds dreadful. I'd ask about a bike but Lord knows I've asked myself the same question so I know Sh*t Happens and I don't wanna pry.

It's not happening to me either. I'm guessing it might be an issue with the operating system or browser? I'm using Windows 10 and Chrome, ifsomeone else also does and still experience the problem then it's caused by something else.

Anyway, back on topic. There certainly are ways you can fill the gaps and still have Splinter be a rat, such as reincarnation or lab experiments. I just don't think the inconsistancies caused by having the same incident turn a man into a rat and turtles into humanoids just aren't worth it if you can make your fictional horseshit rules more clear. If the mutagen just does whatever for no clear reason (like mutating a car or turning a man into goop), then it becomes kind of awkward to accept as a plot device. It's the reason people hated the new Force powers in the Disney trilogy, you don't want an element that's just a bag of tricks for what the writer wants at the moment.

Proposed rules:
Wanna turn animals into humanoids? Utrom Ooze.
Wanna turn human into animal men? Intentional genetic engineering.
Wanna make a fusion of man and trash?... Modified teleportation device???

The point is, if you want different results of a plot device, make different plot devices.

[IndigoErth]

I use the site with the last retired XP compatible version of Firefox and no issue. Could it be a glitch happening on the mobile end?

I assume it's a coincidence that it seems to hate both the apostrophe for some and/or the degree mark for others, both located in the same spot..? :tconfuse:


Rat bodies are built very differently from human ones, and even after mutating, he would have had a great deal of trouble learning to adapt his body structure to perform some moves.
Not to mention also teaching it to four Turtles whose own body plan he will never relate to and have to compensate in different ways than a rat and they'd have to figure that part out on their own.

edit: Like FW Splinter trying to teach Leo that serpent strike move or whatever it was (I think in the one where Leo is afraid of snakes) and it really just shouldn't be possible for the guy, given the whole back bending part.

[Andrew NDB]

Sidenote:

"Splinter in 2012 Nick TMNT is the best! Because it's Hamato and it's played semi-serious!"

Eh, yes. And as I've often said, that incarnation will always have a special place in my heart because it's the one that made my daughter and I kind of share something that we both enjoyed. It's not "TMNT" to me, but it's... "our TMNT" for an extended moment in time, if that makes sense.

That said, no. The mutagen in that series made it lose all credibility. It was bad enough that the Fred Wolf mutagen morphs you into whatever the last lifeform you touched (which makes no sense... what if you have a COVID virus on you at the same time you touch an ant... do you become COVID-Antman? or if an amoeba is around too? nonsense!) but now... you can fuse with a blade of grass? Or a walky-talky or something? Even worse!

[newfan]

Sidenote:

"Splinter in 2012 Nick TMNT is the best! Because it's Hamato and it's played semi-serious!"

Eh, yes. And as I've often said, that incarnation will always have a special place in my heart because it's the one that made my daughter and I kind of share something that we both enjoyed. It's not "TMNT" to me, but it's... "our TMNT" for an extended moment in time, if that makes sense.

That said, no. The mutagen in that series made it lose all credibility. It was bad enough that the Fred Wolf mutagen morphs you into whatever the last lifeform you touched (which makes no sense... what if you have a COVID virus on you at the same time you touch an ant... do you become COVID-Antman? or if an amoeba is around too? nonsense!) but now... you can fuse with a blade of grass? Or a walky-talky or something? Even worse!

Yeah if you can splice with non living things technically the concrete ground people are standing on when they splashed with mutagen would count.

[Dejablue]

I like both origins of Splinter being human original or rat always. But I guess one has to consider the implications of Splinter always being a rat, absorbing knowledge and human morality before his mutation and passing that mindset into his sons. So like...does this mean non mutated animals have sapience/self awareness?

The mutagen can't just give that to them can it? Like the concept of right and wrong isn't pre-loaded into the ooze. He had to learn that somehow. I know it's just a cartoon tho sooo I'm over thinking things.

I suppose doing it Secret of Nimh (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secret_of_NIMH) style would be the best work around to explain Splinter's pre-mutation intelligence. I wouldn't count reincarnation as it works in IDW, because there were supernatural forces involved, how did Splinter just know that those 4 turtles were his kids.

[Andrew NDB]

The mutagen in the Mirage and movies and 2K3 is the only one that makes any sort of sense. The only outlier anyone can point to is "Welllll! How did Splinter in his cage learn everything in his cage!" And that's fair. But Laird has been asked and answered multiple times on his Q&A that he DID have a story behind that. As in, that wasn't a normal rat. But he forgot where he was going with that.

We can talk in circles about "I really wish Hamato Yoshi is Splinter! Because that'd be best!" (and you know what, you might be right) but that's really the first discussion we need to have (about how the mutagen works and thus mutated Splinter). Because if that's bullsh**, then the bottom drops out. And we can't take it seriously.

[Dejablue]

Which is the more important discussion the mutagen or yoshi being splinter?

[Andrew NDB]

Which is the more important discussion the mutagen or yoshi being splinter?

I feel like the former needs to be settled before we can get into the latter. But it won't.

[Dejablue]

well I mean the mutagen works however the writer wants it for the most part but I figured the basic rules stayed the same?

I could see there being wiggle room without it feeling like BS if the writers add in a throw away line about some evil scientist making adjustments to the mutagen to create variations.

[Andrew NDB]

well I mean the mutagen works however the writer wants it for the most part but I figured the basic rules stayed the same?

What, between everything TMNT ever? Nonsense. The Mirage/movie/2k3 mutagen works way different than it does in everything else. There are no "basic rules" in those other things because they don't want any. Touch a "Walk" button on a crosswalk and you might become "Crosswalk Man" or some other nonsense.

Mirage/movie/2k3 at least make sense within themselves, say what you will about Splinter's origin (which I've spoken on). Either you believe whatever hits the ooze becomes hyper-evolved suddenly, or the Utrom factor somehow forcibly makes whatever it comes into contact with more humanoid and sentient.

Simple.

I could see there being wiggle room without it feeling like BS if the writers add in a throw away line about some evil scientist making adjustments to the mutagen to create variations.

I'd rather it not be convoluted like that. Though I do like that Eastman & Laird made it a little bit vague, while still holding water. No other incarnation did that (beyond the movies/2k3).

[Dejablue]

well now I feel like I need a chart of how the mutagen is treated in all the different versions of tmnt.

[neatoman]

well now I feel like I need a chart of how the mutagen is treated in all the different versions of tmnt.

Mirage, 4Kids, original movies, first PD movie:

It turns animals into humanoids, that's all it ever does.


Fred Wolf, Archie:

Turns things into hybrids
Seemingly works the same as in Mirage when no humans are present
Fuses man to trash
Turns man into goop
Fuses animals of the same species together
Fuses micro organisms to ice
Turns rocks into rock soldiers
Probably other things I can't remember


IDW

In it's most raw form, it's a regeneration formula. If it does anything but regenerate lost tissue, restore youth or increase muscle mass, it has been altered. If any chemicals that alter the substance are used on their own the subject will die quickly.
One variant does turn animals into humanoids (but somehow also caused a colony of flatworms to share a hivemind). A brain altering formula is required to ensure the subject don't become an idiot.
Another variant creates creates hybrids and depends on what DNA has been added to it. The humanoids variant seeming turns into this when inside the blood of a mutant. Effects can seemingly be reversed with a cyybernetic pump.
One variant seems to fuse things together but it's never been intentionally used and was seemingly in testing stages.
If not kept sealed for long enough, any variant will yield worse results.


Nick

In general it creates hybrids, in general.
In it's natural state it's literally milk and regulates the ecosystem in Dimension X.
Utroms are seemingly immune to the effects.
It turns men into pizza when used as a pizza topping.
It can cause existing mutants to mutate even further.
It can fuse three different lifeforms together.
It can create animal-plant hybrids.
Can allegedly be used to create restorative medicine (though it seemingly didn't work).
It can cause massive brain growth.
It can give you psychic powers without any visible deformities.
It can give mushrooms powerful fear toxins.
It can fuse men to trash.
It can cause body parts to come loose and mutate into their beings.
It can cause rats to become giant monsters with plenty of deformities but without signs of hybridisation or a humanoid appearence.
It can cause humans to become more Utrom-like, despite the Utroms being immune.
It can turn cats into ice cream.
It can turn men into goop.
It made Shredder part metal.
It gave squirrels the ability to reproduce within host bodies.
It turned a car itself into a monster that could possess people.
It gave wasps mind control powers and made them giant without any other deformities.
It takes a long time to make a cure unless you add random nonsense to it so you can instead do it instantly.


Second PD movie:

It... finds some ancestral DNA and turns you into something related to it, regardless of wheter that thing would logicially be part of the evolutionary line or not.


Rise

It generally creates hybrids, usually based on what the individual ate or wore.
Some arbitrary additional effects may happen, there's no logical reason Ghost Bear gets phasing powers but he does.
Draxum thinks of Yokai and mutants as interchangeable, so it's not always clear what we see are mutants and what are Yokai.


That's basically it. Generally speaking, Mirage has the simplest rules, IDW has the most complex and Nick has the least amount of rules (pretty much none).

[IndigoErth]

what if you have a COVID virus on you at the same time you touch an ant... do you become COVID-Antman?
Oh, and lets not forget the bacteria that lives inside and on us all and is more of a living thing than a virus. I would think that in the mutation of ANY creature, human or otherwise, where contact come into play, most recent and closest contact should always be bacteria.

Maybe that could have been an explanation for what happened to Mutagen Man. :tconfuse: Bacteria doesn't exactly provide much to go on for a new physical form. But then every mutated creature should have turned into that. lol



Although COVID-Antman as a villain sounds like a good pandemic themed superhero movie. :tlol: Gotta stop that evil super shredder spreader.




Second PD movie:

It... finds some ancestral DNA and turns you into something related to it, regardless of wheter that thing would logicially be part of the evolutionary line or not.


Also, if Donnie tinkers with the same mutagen for a minute it could turn Turtles into humans. (So... human DNA required...? Ancient humans? :tconfuse:)

[Dejablue]

The way the second PD movie described it was so stupid my brain hurt as I watched the movie. I think even the 2012 cartoon's logic wasn't that bad. how does one human have ancestral rhino genes and another have ancestral warthog genes....just...no.

[Galactus]

I can genuinely go both ways on this issue and it's all been said already but I do feel that all this discussion and debate does highlight how important it is for new versions of the property not to skip the origin.

Like there is important stuff that needs to be laid down for TMNT to work like how the mutagen works, what is it's purpose etc. Whether Splinter is Yoshi's pet or Yoshi himself may seem trivial but it does fundamentally alter his relationship with their primary antagonist.

Jumping in and sorting out the details later may seem lime a good idea to jump to the good stuff but we Nederland the basics nailed down first.

[IndigoErth]

The way the second PD movie described it was so stupid my brain hurt as I watched the movie. I think even the 2012 cartoon's logic wasn't that bad. how does one human have ancestral rhino genes and another have ancestral warthog genes....just...no.
Makes me laugh to be honest, because it sounds like it was written by someone who hasn't a single clue how evolution works. Like they did just two seconds of "research" on it and landed on a creationist site's wacky and wholly inaccurate "explanation" on that "theory" they reject. :tlol:

[victory_angel]

The way the second PD movie described it was so stupid my brain hurt as I watched the movie. I think even the 2012 cartoon's logic wasn't that bad. how does one human have ancestral rhino genes and another have ancestral warthog genes....just...no.

It would have been better if they said everyone has an animal they identify with in personality or possesses an animal-like trait. Such as how some people can look like their pets. Or cliches such as sly as a fox, shy as a mouse, kinda thing.

Then I would have bought Bebop and Rocksteady's transformation at lot easier rather than saying that they somehow possess Rino or Warthog genes.

[neatoman]

The second PD movie is easily the worst depiction of the mutagen ever. FW and Nick might have inconsistant results across the board the point of almost having no rules, but at least I can the necessary building blocks are present so you can see the logic. Makes no sense why it would make a chicken brain bigger when it otherwise targets the entire body, why it would make a cat into a pile of ice cream when it otherwise operates on DNA or why it would turn a car into a monster when it's... not a living being and has no DNA to work with. But at least I can say that a brain, ice cream and a car are present in those instances. There is no way in hell that a human being has enough DNA in common with a Rhino to become a Rhino monster.

All they had to do was have Krang say "mix in DNA to make it work" and then depict Baxter add in "Rhino" and "Warthog" vials to the mixture. That's all they had to do in order to not be entirely retarded.

[Leo656]

What's very telling, at least to me, is the fact that based on what we've seen, we the audience are clearly not expected to give a sh*t about any of this stuff, when most of us clearly do. But we're obviously not supposed to, because they're so haphazard with their presentation of the subject of "ooze"/mutagen that no two out of a half-dozen or more disparate versions of the sh*t in over 30 years work the same at all. Based on how inconsistent it is, one could assume that, in the minds of the writers, it's the least important thing in the entire story, when clearly to many of us who read and view that is not the case at all.

I mean, no TMNT writer on any book, movie or TV show has ever come out and said "Don't worry about it, it's Magic", but that's clearly how they look at it when they write the stories.

[PizzaPower1985]

What's very telling, at least to me, is the fact that based on what we've seen, we the audience are clearly not expected to give a sh*t about any of this stuff, when most of us clearly do. But we're obviously not supposed to, because they're so haphazard with their presentation of the subject of "ooze"/mutagen that no two out of a half-dozen or more disparate versions of the sh*t in over 30 years work the same at all. Based on how inconsistent it is, one could assume that, in the minds of the writers, it's the least important thing in the entire story, when clearly to many of us who read and view that is not the case at all.

I mean, no TMNT writer on any book, movie or TV show has ever come out and said "Don't worry about it, it's Magic", but that's clearly how they look at it when they write the stories.

That's a fair point. I remember watching Michelle Ivey interview Tom Waltz for her show, Cowabunga Corner... oh, this was a few years back now, just prior to issue #50 of IDW dropping, and Tom Waltz said something like (major paraphrasing) "the ooze is mysterious and should only serve as a plot device for whatever story the writer/creator is trying to tell."

Now, does that mean they can do whatever the hell they want with it? I think so. I don't think the ooze is supposed to have much meaning beyond, oh, it transformed our terrible terrapins and lowly lil' rat vermin into humanoid ninjas.

I think consistency isn't important in relation to ALL the incarnations, as long as its function makes sense for a particular story/incarnation.

[Leo656]

Oh, my mistake, then. That definitely indeed sounds like he just said "It's Magic." :lol:

Ah well. I can't say I'm surprised.

[Dejablue]

I don't really care about the origins of mutagen but its very important for the way it works to make sense. Otherwise you could just say mutagen is Phoenix Down and bring people back from the dead. And on that note I suspect its best to keep what it can do very limited. At least for more "mature" versions of tmnt story telling.

Like okay yeah if you want to sell toys then that mutagen is going to be an elixir of bullsh*t and miracles. But personally I don't want it to behave that way.

[PizzaPower1985]

I don't really care about the origins of mutagen but its very important for the way it works to make sense. Otherwise you could just say mutagen is Phoenix Down and bring people back from the dead. And on that note I suspect its best to keep what it can do very limited. At least for more "mature" versions of tmnt story telling.

Like okay yeah if you want to sell toys then that mutagen is going to be an elixir of bullsh*t and miracles. But personally I don't want it to behave that way.

Was that seriously a Final Fantasy 7 reference in 2020? Damn, homie! You're awesome.

[IndigoErth]

All they had to do was have Krang say "mix in DNA to make it work" and then depict Baxter add in "Rhino" and "Warthog" vials to the mixture. That's all they had to do in order to not be entirely retarded.
Exactly, and the fact that it would require only just a very few seconds of dialogue to smooth that out is shameful that they didn't.

an elixir of bullsh*t and miracles.
Aaahahaha!

I want this on a TMNT shirt. :tlol: A fabulously self aware one done for humor.

[Coola Yagami]

Was that seriously a Final Fantasy 7 reference in 2020? Damn, homie! You're awesome.

Not like they made a remake recently or anything. :lol:

[victory_angel]

Not like they made a remake recently or anything. :lol:

Phoenix Down have been a revival potion in other incarnations of final fantasy such as 8, 9, 10, X2, and 12 so it's more of a reference to the final fantasy franchise in general, not just 7.

[neatoman]

Oh, my mistake, then. That definitely indeed sounds like he just said "It's Magic." :lol:

Ah well. I can't say I'm surprised.

Well, considering the origins of Leatherhead, Jagwar and Dreadmond is literally and explicitly magic in the Archie series, then you might as well go with that. Like I said, the mutagen does not need to be the one explaination for having humanoids and monstrosities running around.
Although, to be fair, Magic also comes with some expecations (see "magic systems") but I don't see much in terms of self-contradiction when it comes to this particular area. Even if there was, you can still go with the idea that the humanoids are aliens or cryptids.

[Leo656]

Jagwar's origins are... interesting. :lol:

It's all a work. What really happened with Juntarra was more like that scene near the end of "Clerks II", just with a jaguar instead of a donkey. But of course she's not gonna tell her KID that's how he was conceived. :lol:

Man, that must've been one crazy Yom Kippur.

[ABrown]

My preference is for Splinter to have originated as an ordinary rat, rather than as Hamato Yoshi. However, I thought that the original cartoon handled him originating as Yoshi very well.

[neatoman]

Jagwar's origins are... interesting. :lol:

It's all a work. What really happened with Juntarra was more like that scene near the end of "Clerks II", just with a jaguar instead of a donkey. But of course she's not gonna tell her KID that's how he was conceived. :lol:

Man, that must've been one crazy Yom Kippur.

Well, you know, pretty weird circumstances would make you actually want to take the barbed cat dick.

Anyway, I did remember there is a story in which Splinter allows himself to get possessed by a ghost who explicitly has the power to transfer centuries of martial arts experience into other people. Don't think that's inteded to be a factor in his abilities, but it's worth consideration.
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ch74R7wdd6s/Vw9WoA5B0YI/AAAAAAAAA64/khaVGWIamLMGveShzsEq7PnHzUB5b6QJgCCo/s1600-Ic42/RCO010.JPG
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-YymFmlEFGeo/Vw9WoceBXNI/AAAAAAAAA64/J6UJdsFW22c7tJ1uf6UFakifkxTKqZ8iQCCo/s1600-Ic42/RCO011.JPG
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-yr8NIrVrjqI/Vw9WqOcmLTI/AAAAAAAAA64/Xstqv5NGreEfZ4fUhJl91Egod7MDCPsgACCo/s1600-Ic42/RCO027_w.JPG
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-n3GAidvgSDY/Vw9WqGN6wRI/AAAAAAAAA64/AlinJNNescEnYb14ENLd8Pe38BjujuS3gCCo/s1600-Ic42/RCO028_w.JPG
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ZCfQCkqmit8/Vw9WqbWQVBI/AAAAAAAAA64/csmajYgr-p8moQcNGt9G0ZC3YPTx9V2vQCCo/s1600-Ic42/RCO030.JPG
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-eVk0bhwUavE/Vw9WqZ8ndoI/AAAAAAAAA64/bfecZQVML2sUqR1LaRRZGDG8MYOwmJH3gCCo/s1600-Ic42/RCO032.JPG

[PizzaPower1985]

Well, you know, pretty weird circumstances would make you actually want to take the barbed cat dick.

Anyway, I did remember there is a story in which Splinter allows himself to get possessed by a ghost who explicitly has the power to transfer centuries of martial arts experience into other people. Don't think that's inteded to be a factor in his abilities, but it's worth consideration.
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ch74R7wdd6s/Vw9WoA5B0YI/AAAAAAAAA64/khaVGWIamLMGveShzsEq7PnHzUB5b6QJgCCo/s1600-Ic42/RCO010.JPG
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-YymFmlEFGeo/Vw9WoceBXNI/AAAAAAAAA64/J6UJdsFW22c7tJ1uf6UFakifkxTKqZ8iQCCo/s1600-Ic42/RCO011.JPG
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-yr8NIrVrjqI/Vw9WqOcmLTI/AAAAAAAAA64/Xstqv5NGreEfZ4fUhJl91Egod7MDCPsgACCo/s1600-Ic42/RCO027_w.JPG
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-n3GAidvgSDY/Vw9WqGN6wRI/AAAAAAAAA64/AlinJNNescEnYb14ENLd8Pe38BjujuS3gCCo/s1600-Ic42/RCO028_w.JPG
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ZCfQCkqmit8/Vw9WqbWQVBI/AAAAAAAAA64/csmajYgr-p8moQcNGt9G0ZC3YPTx9V2vQCCo/s1600-Ic42/RCO030.JPG
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-eVk0bhwUavE/Vw9WqZ8ndoI/AAAAAAAAA64/bfecZQVML2sUqR1LaRRZGDG8MYOwmJH3gCCo/s1600-Ic42/RCO032.JPG

When I first read that issue I didn't completely understand how that worked. It has since become one of my favorite TMNT issues.

[Filespit]

For me it's always been more logical that Yoshi is mutated into rat-form, rather than a rat transform into humanshape. I've never bought the fact that he becomes an expert martial artist by either mimicing his owner or reading books about it. It's obviously part of whole parody idea of the original comic, so I take it for what it is, but I feel it would be more logical if he was human-turned-rat. It would also give more substance to his relationship with Saki/Shredder.

[Myko]

Here's an idea I had for an alternative timelines that keeps both "mutagen just makes the target more humanoid/evolved/bigger/strong" and is less silly in terms of a rat learning martial arts:

1. Yoshi and Splinter flee to New York and are forced to live in the sewers
2. An accident drops a canister of mutagen and a jar of turtles into the sewers. Splinter and the turtles are mutated into humanoids.
3. Splinter being a rat (short lifespan) and the turtles being turtles (long lifespan) age at much different rates.
4. Yoshi teaches Splinter and the turtles martial arts, but since the turtles are still young he mostly focuses on Splinter.
5. Saki finds them and kills Yoshi.
6. Splinter vows to train the turtles and take revenge on Saki.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Here's an idea I had for an alternative timelines that keeps both "mutagen just makes the target more humanoid/evolved/bigger/strong" and is less silly in terms of a rat learning martial arts:

1. Yoshi and Splinter flee to New York and are forced to live in the sewers
2. An accident drops a canister of mutagen and a jar of turtles into the sewers. Splinter and the turtles are mutated into humanoids.
3. Splinter being a rat (short lifespan) and the turtles being turtles (long lifespan) age at much different rates.
4. Yoshi teaches Splinter and the turtles martial arts, but since the turtles are still young he mostly focuses on Splinter.
5. Saki finds them and kills Yoshi.
6. Splinter vows to train the turtles and take revenge on Saki.

Wow, that is actually a fantastic way of mixing both origins, and I'm surprised this never crossed my mind before.
It certainly would be interesting to see a mutated Splinter interact with Hamato Yoshi and get an insight into what their relationship was like.

The only time I remember such happening was in season 5 of the 2003 series, in which Splinter briefly met the ghost of Hamato Yoshi after they defeated Demon Shredder.
It was honestly a very touching moment from what I remember, and I'd totally be down for more Splinter and Yoshi interactions in future incarnations.

[ssjup81]

I know this discussion has gone on for a bit, but I would really like to share my opinion on this.

Now as some of you may or remember (I know, I've been awol for a while), I've always preferred the Hamato Yoshi -> Splinter story over the Pet Rat > Splinter scenario. Here's why...

One thing I had a hard time suspending my disbelief with was Splinter, as a pet rat, paying attention enough to his master to learn marital arts. I know rats are known to be intelligent creatures, but that seems a bit too unbelievable. I know...it's a series about mutant animals, but I still feel this way. It's sad that Splinter lost Hamato Yoshi and Tang Shen to Saki, but he just became a bigger rat. Seems it would be easier for him to readapt since animal instincts would've taken over, imo.

As for human to rat scenario....I just feel that it's more tragic. The rat to mutated rat is also tragic, but as mentioned, he's a rat who could probably readapt in the wild based on his natural instincts. Yoshi lost his wife to his friend turned enemy younger brother, he lost his home, and he lost the life he'd once lived. He was born a human and lived life as a human doing normal human things. His life pretty much collapsed and then he was turned into a rat...one of the most disliked animals on the planet and forced to hide in the sewers. This to me is just much sadder. I also like the fact that Splinter is Hamato Yoshi and is already a master and have that knowledge to pass down to the turtles which makes more sense to me.

So, yeah, this is why I feel that the human to rat method adds more dimensions to his character. The life of a pet rat isn't as vast as that of a human's and would require much more changing and adapting on the part of the human as opposed to the rat, imo.Here's an idea I had for an alternative timelines that keeps both "mutagen just makes the target more humanoid/evolved/bigger/strong" and is less silly in terms of a rat learning martial arts:

1. Yoshi and Splinter flee to New York and are forced to live in the sewers
2. An accident drops a canister of mutagen and a jar of turtles into the sewers. Splinter and the turtles are mutated into humanoids.
3. Splinter being a rat (short lifespan) and the turtles being turtles (long lifespan) age at much different rates.
4. Yoshi teaches Splinter and the turtles martial arts, but since the turtles are still young he mostly focuses on Splinter.
5. Saki finds them and kills Yoshi.
6. Splinter vows to train the turtles and take revenge on Saki.Wow, now this actually works for me. Something where Hamato Yoshi is the one doing the teaching works for me.

[PApagreg]

Coming from a guy who's earliest TMNT media is the 90s movie and the 2k3 TV I prefer Splinter as Hamato Yoshi because the idea of a Rat learning ninjutsu from watching a guy train is super dumb.


Rise

It generally creates hybrids, usually based on what the individual ate or wore.
Some arbitrary additional effects may happen, there's no logical reason Ghost Bear gets phasing powers but he does.
Draxum thinks of Yokai and mutants as interchangeable, so it's not always clear what we see are mutants and what are Yokai.

.

Keep in mind Rise mutagen is magic in origin so there is a chance for an addition of powers. Also Yokais are people who are non humans while Mutants who are humans(or animals in the turtles cases) who turned into Yokai(that's my theory).

Here's an idea I had for an alternative timelines that keeps both "mutagen just makes the target more humanoid/evolved/bigger/strong" and is less silly in terms of a rat learning martial arts:

1. Yoshi and Splinter flee to New York and are forced to live in the sewers
2. An accident drops a canister of mutagen and a jar of turtles into the sewers. Splinter and the turtles are mutated into humanoids.
3. Splinter being a rat (short lifespan) and the turtles being turtles (long lifespan) age at much different rates.
4. Yoshi teaches Splinter and the turtles martial arts, but since the turtles are still young he mostly focuses on Splinter.
5. Saki finds them and kills Yoshi.
6. Splinter vows to train the turtles and take revenge on Saki.

You know I like this, the idea of a Hamato Yoshi teaching a mutated Splinter is something that could be explored.

[neatoman]

Keep in mind Rise mutagen is magic in origin so there is a chance for an addition of powers. Also Yokais are people who are non humans while Mutants who are humans(or animals in the turtles cases) who turned into Yokai(that's my theory).

We don't really know where the mutagen came from or who actually made it. All we know is that Draxum had it when he mutated the turtles, had not used it until he turned that guy into a fish and that he seemingly had a limited supply.

[PApagreg]

We don't really know where the mutagen came from or who actually made it. All we know is that Draxum had it when he mutated the turtles, had not used it until he turned that guy into a fish and that he seemingly had a limited supply.

Umm its heavily implied that Draxum made it since

A. He is a warrior alchemist


B. No one else seems to have it but him.

[neatoman]

Umm its heavily implied that Draxum made it since

A. He is a warrior alchemist


B. No one else seems to have it but him.

Then why didn't he have any for 15 years?

[PApagreg]

Then why didn't he have any for 15 years?

...Because his lab was destroyed by Splinter/Hamatao Yoshi/Lou Jitsu, also as for why he still have some now is because he released the Oozesqterous.

[Leo656]

Whenever I read people describe anything that happens on "Rise", it reads like TMNT MadLibs, with the blanks filled in by a very young child. :lol:

[PApagreg]

Whenever I read people describe anything that happens on "Rise", it reads like TMNT MadLibs, with the blanks filled in by a very young child. :lol:

So just like TMNT in general?

[neatoman]

...Because his lab was destroyed by Splinter/Hamatao Yoshi/Lou Jitsu, also as for why he still have some now is because he released the Oozesqterous.

OK

So just like TMNT in general?

Nah.

[PApagreg]

Nah.

TMNT as in Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, how is the title alone not madlibs?

Heck this franchise had two iterations where evil mutated pizzas was a thing.

[Leo656]

Aaaaaaand that's a "good" thing becaaaaaauuuuuuse....?

There's always a line. Wrestling is inherently stupid (As a wrestler, I can say that). Objectively, watching two people pretend to fight when you know full well that's it's all for fun is silly. But there's a willing suspension of disbelief, and that's okay.

Y'know what's not okay? Things like a wrestling mummy. Or Hulk Hogan knocking a guy off the roof of an arena, only for that guy to come back unscathed 20 minutes later with zero explanation and beat Hogan for the World title. Or a guy wrestling "The Invisible Man". Or a guy who beats his opponents by putting a "Voodoo Curse" on them. And so on.

All of those things have happened, they're televised and documented. MOST people, though, understand that they're terrible, even the very same people who wrote them. Those people have all since apologized, numerous times. "Yeah, that was terrible. We were drunk."

The fact that you have a "silly" premise, does not mean that all things Can or Should be overwhelmingly "silly" by extension. There's ALWAYS a line, and the wisdom is knowing when the f*ck to pull back and exercise some goddamn restraint.

There's "Stupid", and then there's "Stoooooooooooooopid."

I feel like TMNT can be the former, without ever approaching the latter.

[PApagreg]

Aaaaaaand that's a "good" thing becaaaaaauuuuuuse....?

Literally never said it was a good thing.

There's "Stupid", and then there's "Stoooooooooooooopid."

I feel like TMNT can be the former, without ever approaching the latter.


It's fine that you feel that way but at this point TMNT not only approached the latter but fused together with it like some kind of Cronenberg abomination more times than being close to the former

Examples like evil mutated pizzas include but not limited

Mutated Street Punks who are a Rhinoceros and Warthog

Squid alien operating a humanoid robot

Fly Scientist that makes robotic rat catchers

Floridan Cajun Alligator

Rockabilly Teenagers from Outer Space

Ninja dressed like a cheese grater with a purple cloak

Mobsters who kidnap and tickle women

Garbageman who kidnaps homeless people

A Nanobot who thinks a scientist and a thief are his parents

A squid like alien who is piloting a humanoid robot but this time he is the ninja dressed like a cheese grater

Humanoid Alien Dinosaurs

A civilization full of winged people

The Title characters turning into dragons

Scientist who is cut up so much he becomes a brain

Ninjas representing the the elements of Air Fire Water Earth and Metal

A Brazilian mutant fish with robot legs

A being that is made up of ooze and exposed guts

Ice Cream Kitty

Dream Beavers

Man who controls rats

A professor ape with psychic powers

Mutated Wasps that controls people

Whatever this thing is

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/tmnt2012series/images/f/f8/Justin%28TMNT2012%29.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/340?cb=20151120143242

Time Traveling Valley Girl

Interdimensional Wish Granting Genie

And that's just scratching the surface but Warrior Alchemist that's just TOO silly and straight out of Madlibs created by a very young child

[Hockey Boy]

“You took EVERYTHING from me!”
“I don’t even know who you are!”
This is the entire problem with Pet Rat Splinter tbh

[Leo656]

That's a very interesting point!

Imagine if at the end of the first movie, instead of Shredder's big dramatic mask removal accompanied by the swelling score... he just started pissing down his leg laughing and said "Wait, wait... are you f*cking KIDDING me right now?" :lol:

It would have taken the piss out of the movie, sure; but it also would be the exact appropriate emotional response to someone's pet being out to kill you on account of some sh*t you did to their owner two decades earlier. :lol:

[Hockey Boy]

That's a very interesting point!

Imagine if at the end of the first movie, instead of Shredder's big dramatic mask removal accompanied by the swelling score... he just started pissing down his leg laughing and said "Wait, wait... are you f*cking KIDDING me right now?" :lol:

It would have taken the piss out of the movie, sure; but it also would be the exact appropriate emotional response to someone's pet being out to kill you on account of some sh*t you did to their owner two decades earlier. :lol:

Yeah, the movies a classic still but I gotta admit -I WILL FINISH WHAT I BEGAN WITH YOUR EAR!- is just....so ridiculous :lol:

[ssjup81]

?You took EVERYTHING from me!?
?I don?t even know who you are!?
This is the entire problem with Pet Rat Splinter tbhYou know, this sums up the problem with the whole Rat > Splinter thing. It's true that Splinter would feel this way, but Saki would have no real reason to care or even know of his existence. Him as Yoshi creates more of a connection between the two characters and can get you more invested in their feud and everything that caused it in the first place.That's a very interesting point!

Imagine if at the end of the first movie, instead of Shredder's big dramatic mask removal accompanied by the swelling score... he just started pissing down his leg laughing and said "Wait, wait... are you f*cking KIDDING me right now?" :lol:I just thinking this after reading the previous post. This actually would've made more sense realistically...unless we go with cray-cray 2012 Shredder. "You're connected to Hamato Yoshi! I will kill you!" Meh, 2012 Shredder probably would've thought he was Yoshi by default in some convoluted way as far gone as his mind was.Yeah, the movies a classic still but I gotta admit -I WILL FINISH WHAT I BEGAN WITH YOUR EAR!- is just....so ridiculous :lol:Yeah, it is pretty silly looking back. Seriously, I don't think any average person would remember slicing a rat's ear...oh wait, didn't pet rat Splinter give him the scar which made him slice at his ear when swinging his sword? Just recalled it...but either way, Shredder probably wouldn't have really thought much of him and had no real reason to brood for 20 years over slicing off a rat's ear that scratched him. lol

[Wingnut II]

Literally never said it was a good thing.




It's fine that you feel that way but at this point TMNT not only approached the latter but fused together with it like some kind of Cronenberg abomination more times than being close to the former

Examples like evil mutated pizzas include but not limited

Mutated Street Punks who are a Rhinoceros and Warthog

Squid alien operating a humanoid robot

Fly Scientist that makes robotic rat catchers

Floridan Cajun Alligator

Rockabilly Teenagers from Outer Space

Ninja dressed like a cheese grater with a purple cloak

Mobsters who kidnap and tickle women

Garbageman who kidnaps homeless people

A Nanobot who thinks a scientist and a thief are his parents

A squid like alien who is piloting a humanoid robot but this time he is the ninja dressed like a cheese grater

Humanoid Alien Dinosaurs

A civilization full of winged people

The Title characters turning into dragons

Scientist who is cut up so much he becomes a brain

Ninjas representing the the elements of Air Fire Water Earth and Metal

A Brazilian mutant fish with robot legs

A being that is made up of ooze and exposed guts

Ice Cream Kitty

Dream Beavers

Man who controls rats

A professor ape with psychic powers

Mutated Wasps that controls people

Whatever this thing is

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/tmnt2012series/images/f/f8/Justin%28TMNT2012%29.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/340?cb=20151120143242

Time Traveling Valley Girl

Interdimensional Wish Granting Genie

And that's just scratching the surface but Warrior Alchemist that's just TOO silly and straight out of Madlibs created by a very young child

That "thing" is named Justin, people. He's a chimera.

[wyze2099]

Here's an idea I had for an alternative timelines that keeps both "mutagen just makes the target more humanoid/evolved/bigger/strong" and is less silly in terms of a rat learning martial arts:

1. Yoshi and Splinter flee to New York and are forced to live in the sewers
2. An accident drops a canister of mutagen and a jar of turtles into the sewers. Splinter and the turtles are mutated into humanoids.
3. Splinter being a rat (short lifespan) and the turtles being turtles (long lifespan) age at much different rates.
4. Yoshi teaches Splinter and the turtles martial arts, but since the turtles are still young he mostly focuses on Splinter.
5. Saki finds them and kills Yoshi.
6. Splinter vows to train the turtles and take revenge on Saki.

Honestly? When I was 10 years old and saw the 1990 movie in the theater, there is a point early on when Splinter mentions "my master Yoshi". I genuinely pictured something like the above scenario in my head. I thought that was what Splinter meant right up until he recounted his origin story to April, and then I thought, "whaaaaa?" At the time, I only knew about the Fred Wolf version, so it took me a while to get used to the idea of Splinter as starting out as a rat.

I prefer Splinter starting out as Hamato Yoshi, but most TMNT media depicted him as a rat first, so I've had to go along with that. At one point in the 2000s, I had the idea for an Ultimate TMNT fanfic series (even briefly collaborated on a webcomic), and there I depicted Splinter as being a rat who was mutated. the way I explained it there was that the mutagen expanded his capacity for understanding concepts both in the present and in his memories. So things he observed as a normal rat made more sense to him.

That was a start, of course; I also established that while the Turtles were still young, Splinter spied on the surface world and the Foot Clan and even engaged in occasional raids on their hideouts. He'd observe their training and steal their gear, attacking them or defending himself when necessary; the Foot Clan thought it was some eccentric vigilante or rival wearing a rat costume. And it was possible he might have made human allies who could teach him various things he could teach his students.

These days if I did it over again, I'd just go with the Hamato Yoshi origin, unless I really wanted to dive into the story of what Splinter did with his time before he started training the Turtles.

[Luckyday]

Changing Splinter's origin depends on what tone they (writers of show and current comics ) are going for and a theme or multiple themes they wanted to explore.

In Mirage, because he was part of Yoshi's family instead of being Yoshi, it was pretty much a cycle of revenge. They kill my family, I kill theirs, they kill my new family and from there a war is born that last generations.

It's almost a similar kind of dynamic in 80's TMNT and Nick but because it was a show for kids, it had to be water down so that Splinter is always in the right and is a paragon of good, because god help us if a man that gave a bunch of kids dangerous weapon isn't a model citizen.:roll:

But Rise, it's more about not turning away from your family for sake of fame or power which ironically enough is what both Shredder and Splinter did in different ways. Shredder turn away from his humanity and his family for the sake of power and Splinter turn away from his family to become a movie star.

What I want to see next not a cycle of revenge but more of a fear/paranoid that reflective of the Cold War or Red Scare or just generally "It's either us or them" mentality, because both Splinter and Shredder had demonstrated why they should fear the other in their brief interactions with each other and had come to see the other as this total monster that needs to be put down.


So not so much a cycle of revenge but more a Mexican standoff between two train assassins.