TMNT - The John Byrne Thread

[PizzaPower1985]

I thought this TMNT 2014 movie thread was lost to history because a friend of mine, who frequents these forums, said that he remembered Byrne getting disgusted and or in a dispute on his own forum over the TMNT and apparently several people were banned. Apparently it was never deleted (but my friend was eventually banned for something else).

It sums up John Byrne's (and his fans') opinions of TMNT as a whole.

http://www.byrnerobotics.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=46644&PN=1&TPN=1


A 2nd thread involving "Kirby the ill-fated 5th turtle" has an interesting response here by the comic book legend.

http://m.byrnerobotics.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=43444

[neatoman]

Oh yeah, MovieBob, someone mentions his speculation on what this movie would have been like. I'm not sure why he assumed Splinter would turn out to be April's dad, but then again he's known for having really bad takes. I also find it amusing that MovieBob said he'd like for the next movie to feature Bebop, Rocksteady, Krang and the Technodrome because he'd just prefer the franchise to head into Fred Wolf wankery, only for him not to do a video review of OotS and quietly admitting the movie sucked on his website.

Anyway, Byrne's take that "Miller doesn't get a nickel" is pretty weird. Obviously TMNT is Miller inspired but Miller had nothing to do with the actual creation and it does not cross into plagiarism.

[oldmanwinters]

Thanks for the heads-up, but I was hoping for more candid comments from Byrne.

I don't consider TMNT so much a "parody" of Marvel/Miller classics but more of an homage that paid tribute to the established tropes before immediately doing its own thing. I don't think anything about the Eastman & Laird issues storylines could be said to be lifted from Marvel or Miller. Clearly, they had other influences as well, and had some creative vision to tell their own story arc before loaning out the car to the guest-era contributors.

[Leo656]

Eh, I'unno if Miller "deserves" anything from TMNT. Kinda don't think so. Does Liefeld get royalties every time someone draws a character with giant shoulder pads, a million belt pouches, tiny/nonexistent feet and a 7-foot giant gun? Like, did DC pay him and the Image guys when they came up with Azrael As Batman? Because that's Liefeld all over, even though he physically had nothing to do with it, but it's 100% a "Liefeld Design" on purpose by way of "homage/parody". Should he then be compensated? I don't think so. The TMNT/Miller parallels are more numerous and substantial but I still kinda don't think so.

I do remember that "Splinter will be April's Dad" was a very heavily-discussed rumor in the lead-up to the first BayTurtles film. Frankly, given that there is no "Hamato Yoshi" character in the film and how many other things were switched and moved around hastily and haphazardly during production, I'm gonna hazard a guess and say that just like Sacks being Shredder, Splinter being April's Dad probably WAS the plan, or at least discussed, at some point before it leaked out and people got angry. It just sounds way too much like something they'd do. Like it's exactly their "flavor" of Bad Idea. So I'm just gonna assume that they wanted to do it, and would've, if someone hadn't leaked it.

Also, gotta love when people chime in on a topic about a popular property just to say "I never liked this and I'm not gonna start now." :lol: Alright Chad. We all needed to know.

And in that Kirby thread, what's that guy talking about with the "Fourth movie would have starred a 'Slutty April'" thing? I never heard anything like that before. I swear sometimes people just make stuff up. At least I have no idea what they're referencing, I'unno.

[Ninjinister]

And in that Kirby thread, what's that guy talking about with the "Fourth movie would have starred a 'Slutty April'" thing? I never heard anything like that before. I swear sometimes people just make stuff up. At least I have no idea what they're referencing, I'unno.

Are you familiar with Eastman at all, man???

https://bleedingcool.com/wp-content/uploads//2012/12/evil-april.jpg

[Leo656]

Oh, well that's lovely. :lol:

I'd never seen that drawing or heard of any propsective plans at all for April in TMNT4 so I was unaware. :lol:

She certainly has some big nipples. I enjoy that.

[PizzaPower1985]

I have little wish to disparage the man because he's one of my top five comics creators of all time, but he's wrong. Miller was an inspiration to many. Being an inspiration doesn't mean you get paid because somebody imitated or homaged your style to create an incredible work of fiction.

Leo's right about Azrael. Does Joey Q need to pay Rob L some restitution because his Az-Bats design is a Rob L ripoff? No!

And I really think Byrne should give TMNT a chance. I mean he's had 30+ years to read the books, collect the figures, adore that first movie etc. But he dismisses them and it pisses me right the F*ck off. His prerogative to not like them BUT it really seems like he never even gave them a chance. I really wanna see Byrne be a fan so he can actually attempt to draw the TMNT. He never has but I'd love to see it.

And those fans? Talk about being clueless. I think it's good that a few on that board at least were familiar with Mirage.

And yeah, that April has some nice ones. And I actually do like that Kirby drawing but it reminds me of Slash a lot.

[Leo656]

I love Byrne, but like many Brits he sometimes seems a tiny bit snooty, even without trying to be. Perhaps it's just his way.

[PizzaPower1985]

I love Byrne, but like many Brits he sometimes seems a tiny bit snooty, even without trying to be. Perhaps it's just his way.

Well, his reputation for being cantankerous and quick to anger are well known. I just think if he doesnt agree with someone he either shuts them down or dismisses them as idiots. That's not the way to be. As wonderful as his art is... as wonderful as much of his Superman run is, his FF run, X-men art, it's all great, but you don't get to be a jerk about everything just because... opinions.

I love Byrne too, but when does snooty just become jerk?

[Dejablue]

Does Liefeld get royalties every time someone draws a character with giant shoulder pads, a million belt pouches, tiny/nonexistent feet and a 7-foot giant gun?

Thats not Tetsuya Nomura ?? But anyway who cares what this Byrne guy says? He doesn't seem to be all that important.

[Leo656]

Jesus Christ, there ought to be a hefty fine for saying such ignorant things out loud.

John Byrne has contributed more to the comic book industry every time he scratches his ass than Eastman and Laird have in their entire f*cking lives. C'mon. Don't be ridiculous.

[PizzaPower1985]

Thats not Tetsuya Nomura ?? But anyway who cares what this Byrne guy says? He doesn't seem to be all that important.

You must really despise the Fantastic Four there, friend. Byrne's run defined Reed Richards and Byrne taught us all how to properly draw Ben Grimm.

And I bet you got a mad hate on for Superman? There's that Byrne guy again.

How do you feel about Wolverine's brown/tan costume? Created by Byrne.

Kitty Pryde? Days of Future Past? Byrne developed both of those X-men things by himself (Claremont just wrote the script).

She-Hulk?

I could go on but you get the idea. You wanna post stuff like that again, we're gonna need you to put $25 in the Technodrome Cookie Jar. Just for good measure.

[Dejablue]

I did thoroughly expose myself. I don't read comics outside of ...Turtles. Or an independent work every once in a while. Everything else I read is manga.

[Leo656]

I mean, it's a common issue among some TMNT fans: They're myopic. Doesn't make 'em bad people but you can spot 'em from a mile away, usually.

You can generally tell which ones don't read a lot of comics because some - not all, but some - practically fetishize TMNT; the truth is, when you actually read a lot of comics, you quickly discover that even the very best TMNT comics are merely "Pretty good, I guess." They're only "great" if you haven't read anything else. Maybe a few individual issues here and there are "great", but that's about it. The writing and art has been consistently "serviceable at best" since day one by any objective standard, no matter which series it is.

I mean, they're "fine", but there's, like, a million better comics out there. So when people stick with "just" TMNT, it kinda makes me sad. It ain't that good, pal!

You must really despise the Fantastic Four there, friend. Byrne's run defined Reed Richards and Byrne taught us all how to properly draw Ben Grimm.

And I bet you got a mad hate on for Superman? There's that Byrne guy again.

How do you feel about Wolverine's brown/tan costume? Created by Byrne.

Kitty Pryde? Days of Future Past? Byrne developed both of those X-men things by himself (Claremont just wrote the script).

She-Hulk?

I could go on but you get the idea. You wanna post stuff like that again, we're gonna need you to put $25 in the Technodrome Cookie Jar. Just for good measure.

It's like, pick any big name character, almost, and Byrne did either The Best run, or one of the Top 3 Best Runs. His JLA circa 2003 or whatever kinda fumbled but it was a different time. 80s Byrne was Best Byrne. But holy sh*t, that guy was just hitting back-to-back home runs across multiple companies for that entire decade. It's like he was single-handedly carrying the business! That's a bit hyperbolic, but he DID have some of the most defining runs in all of history on just about every important character. I don't love everything he's done but if there's a Mount Rushmore of comic creators, at least of the "modern" era, he's gotta be on it.

It's kinda odd to me that he never had a Batman run, even a short one. But he did some cool Batman stuff during his Superman run. And his Superman run was, of course, the best version of the character that's ever been presented in any medium in over 80 years. How many people were able to write AND draw so many iconic characters at such an impeccable level? Not many!

He's definitely very in love with himself, but eh. Few people have earned it like he has, when you've done the work and earned the rep, you can talk down to people all you want. :lol: :trazz:

[Galactus]

Jesus Christ, there ought to be a hefty fine for saying such ignorant things out loud.

John Byrne has contributed more to the comic book industry every time he scratches his ass than Eastman and Laird have in their entire f*cking lives. C'mon. Don't be ridiculous.

Well....that depends how you see things.

Can anyone name a character that Byrne created that has had anywhere near the impact of TMNT? Heck can anyone name a character that Byrne has created that has had anywhere near the same impact as the Fugitoid?

Now that may be an unfair comparison Byrne isn't a guy who comes up with new characters and ideas he's a guy that takes pre-existing characters and ideas and rejigs them and not always for the better.

It's like, pick any big name character, almost, and Byrne did either The Best run, or one of the Top 3 Best Runs

Spider-Man.

[Leo656]

It doesn't really depend on how you see things, it just depends on whether you choose to live in reality or not.

Bob Kane created exactly Zero characters and got a million dollars and a rimjob anytime anyone said the name "Batman", until he up and died. Stan Lee created, like, two characters, and spent a lifetime being hailed as a saint while openly profiting from work he was only barely involved with. Who "creates" what and who gets credit for what isn't necessarily the point.

How many characters did Byrne come up with on his own? I'unno, I only really know his Marvel and DC work, but I know he did other stuff. But again, when you talk Superman, X-Men, Hulk, Fantastic 4... you talk the Big Guns, you talk the All-Time Best Stories to ever see print in those books, you hear Byrne's name. His portfolio speaks for itself. He didn't NEED to create anything all his own, he made his bones taking existing characters and presenting the Best Ever versions of them. That's even HARDER. That's even MORE of an accomplishment.

Eastman and Laird are f*cking hacks. There, I said it. They were a couple of hacks who got lucky ONCE, and I'm glad they did. But on their own, away from each other and the unique circumstances that led to the TMNT's creation? We've seen enough work by either of them to know, their work is sh*t. They got drunk, smoked a bunch of weed, and accidentally dropped a bomb on the industry... and then Everyone Else took their idea and did much more iconic things with it. They arguably weren't even the best people to work on their own damn creation. Some say Yes, some say No, but the fact that it's even a debate speaks volumes. Yes, TMNT had an impact... because of Playmates Toys and Fred Wolf Studios. Kevin and Pete just signed a very good licensing agreement. Otherwise, TMNT would be f*cking "Brat Pack". Let's just be goddamn real about that for a second. THEY are not the reason TMNT became a phenomenon, outside of the fact that they put their names on the right piece of paper.

And even then, TMNT, as "influential" and "iconic" as they are, are still a relative pimple on the ass of the entire comic book industry. They've NEVER had a best-selling series, they've NEVER had top creators working on it, and I get it, it's "indie", but that right there says it all, doesn't it? Meanwhile, every single book that Byrne ever worked on at DC or Marvel, every single character, was 10x bigger and more important than TMNT. Very few people got into the business ever hoping to do a TMNT book, they wanted to do big iconic runs on stuff like Superman and X-Men, and he did it. He did it better than anyone, practically.

No comparison at all. Two hacks who had a good lawyer, who most people still never heard of 35 years later, and a guy who shook up the entire business every time he picked up a pencil for over a decade. That's who you're comparing. Don't talk to me about who had a bigger impact or did more good of had more influence for the industry, that entire conversation is a goddamn joke. It's practically blasphemy. A guy who everyone in the business cites as an influence, and two guys most people never heard of. Do you people think it over before you say this stuff, or...?

"The Fugitoid". :lol: Nobody even knows what that is! I swear to God, anyone who's never in their life been on this specific forum, has no idea who that character is. C'mon. COME ON.


Spider-Man.

:roll: Hence the "Almost", Captain Pedantic. And not everything about that run was bad, just redundant.

I love "Gotcha" games. It's like wearing a name tag that says, "I know my points are full of holes, but if I deflect enough, I might gain credibility!" Except nah, doesn't work like that. You actually need to have a position worth defending in the first place.

This post comes off as very mean. But I can't be any nicer about it! This was one of the worst takes I've ever seen and now I need a drink.

...I mean, I was gonna get one anyway, but this has expedited things greatly. :lol:

[PizzaPower1985]

Well....that depends how you see things.

Can anyone name a character that Byrne created that has had anywhere near the impact of TMNT? Heck can anyone name a character that Byrne has created that has had anywhere near the same impact as the Fugitoid?

Now that may be an unfair comparison Byrne isn't a guy who comes up with new characters and ideas he's a guy that takes pre-existing characters and ideas and rejigs them and not always for the better.



Spider-Man.

One character that he created ALL BY HIMSELF... that is more famous and has more staying power than Fugitoid... KITTY PRYDE... Sprite... Shadowcat... whatever you wanna call her. YES! He also co-created Sabretooth... The Phoenix/Dark Phoenix.... There are a lot but as Leo said, it doesn't really matter.



It's kinda odd to me that he never had a Batman run, even a short one. But he did some cool Batman stuff during his Superman run.

"The reason I do Batman as infrequently as I do is because [along with Captain America] he's my favorite character and there is a little fear that I may not do him as much justice as he deserves. I don't wanna be the guy that writes Batman and then messes up. That's not gonna be on me."

- John Byrne

[Leo656]

Hey, thanks for the Hail Mary, I had a feeling something would come up from someone who'd know better than I. But yeah, that's a short but pretty solid list of Byrne-created characters who've had enormous impact on the world at large. Good call, Garth! :lol:

Pretty nice self-aware statement from Byrne regarding Batman, but I'unno, I think he'd do alright. Superman's way harder to write than Batman and he nailed it. And the Batman he presented within the Superman books was also great. As was most of "Superman/Batman: Generations", which in itself was a really keen idea. I don't think he gives himself enough credit in that particular case. He does a good Batman!

[PizzaPower1985]

Hey, thanks for the Hail Mary, I had a feeling something would come up from someone who'd know better than I. But yeah, that's a short but pretty solid list of Byrne-created characters who've had enormous impact on the world at large. Good call, Garth! :lol:

Pretty nice self-aware statement from Byrne regarding Batman, but I'unno, I think he'd do alright. Superman's way harder to write than Batman and he nailed it. And the Batman he presented within the Superman books was also great. As was most of "Superman/Batman: Generations", which in itself was a really keen idea. I don't think he gives himself enough credit in that particular case. He does a good Batman!


Knowing your love of DC, you may have these issues... Batman #433-435

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/marvel_dc/images/3/30/Batman_433.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/321?cb=20080508173955

Many Deaths of Batman is a three part Batman storyline written by John Byrne and illustrated by Jim Aparo. Published in 1989 and shortly after the groundbreaking storyline Batman: A Death in the Family, this story follows the activities of a serial killer who murders a number of people dressed in Batman costumes.

[Leo656]

I do! I do have that! Although I have to re-read it, it's been far too long. Good pull!

Totally off-topic, but y'know what else was kinda neat, was that arc in "'Tec" around that time, or shortly after, with the serial killer who said he was "Batman" and was inspired by the in-universe comic book where Batman was some kind of Vengeance Demon. That late-80s/early-90s Batman stuff was off the chain, man.

But back to Byrne, y'know what I loved as a kid? That Superman issue where Joker showed up in Metroplis, Just Because. That was one'a my favorites back then. You almost never got a Superman Vs. Joker story, and it's like "Why not?" That was a good'n.

[PizzaPower1985]

I do! I do have that! Although I have to re-read it, it's been far too long. Good pull!

Totally off-topic, but y'know what else was kinda neat, was that arc in "'Tec" around that time, or shortly after, with the serial killer who said he was "Batman" and was inspired by the in-universe comic book where Batman was some kind of Vengeance Demon. That late-80s/early-90s Batman stuff was off the chain, man.

But back to Byrne, y'know what I loved as a kid? That Superman issue where Joker showed up in Metroplis, Just Because. That was one'a my favorites back then. You almost never got a Superman Vs. Joker story, and it's like "Why not?" That was a good'n.

ONE OF THE GREATEST COMICS IN THE HISTORY OF THE MEDIUM!

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/marvel_dc/images/3/34/Superman_v.2_9.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/327?cb=20060115163131

[Galactus]

Sure Eastman and Laird are two guys who got lucky and a lot of the appeal of those early comics was it's haphazard home made nature however the two of them did improve quite a lot - you could even make an argument that the more polished they became as creators the more series lost some of it's initial quirky charm - but I do think they made some objectively good stuff.

Most of the big names in comic books only work for the big 2 until they get disillusioned with it. Still Murphy was critically lauded for his work on The Puma Blues when he went to work on turtles (granted he probably did it for he money and teach the kids about environmentalism, labour unions, the occupation of Tibet and spirituality) he also got Michael Zulli to work on property and Rick Remender. We know many big name writers have a soft spot for the property they just don't want to slum it on an indie book.

Sure, TMNT made a bigger name for themselves in animation and movies and toys and so on but that is true of all comic characters. Sure, TMNT is notable by how different the version that launched the franchise into the stratosphere is to the original but it's still at it's core the very same basic ideas and characters.

This isn't really disparage Byrne's record but it's not exactly a huge suprise that he doesn't 'get' TMNT. The vast majority of his career is taking other peoples works and making his own head canon reality. Since he didn't grow up with he simply dismisses it. Not a simple 'this isn't for me' but he seems to have zero interest in it unless he has a nostalgic fondness for it.

[Leo656]

ONE OF THE GREATEST COMICS IN THE HISTORY OF THE MEDIUM!

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/marvel_dc/images/3/34/Superman_v.2_9.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/327?cb=20060115163131


Sigh. That cover just jumped right off the rack. What a classic. So mind-blowing to a 5-year old.

What a clever story, too, with Joker using a very common misunderstanding of Superman's powers and essentially outsmarting himself into failing. Good sh*t, pal.

And the reasoning for why bother going to Metropolis and pestering Superman in the first place? "Ohhhhh, Superman... Why NOT?" :lol: Direct and to the point.

Y'know what else gets me hard, is all'a that early Silver Banshee stuff. SO GOOD, man. That one issue where they had Martian Manhunter help him out was keen.

People always comment on how incredible it is that Byrne's Superman run was so memorable despite being, ultimately, very short. But I mean, he did nothing BUT gold on the book(s) when he was on them, that's why. About a two-year run, not very long for Byrne, but long enough to make serious, serious impact and everything's a winner. It felt like he did five years of work instead of two because he was just so completely on fire with it.

Passing the torch to Jurgens was a very wise decision, even though I hated to see Byrne leave. But really, the fact that there didn't even seem to be much disruption, and all of Byrne's work still showed up in the book for the next 15+ years, speaks incredibly highly to just how impactful it was. He worked on Superman for two years, but they were still referencing his stuff for the next 20. That's incredible! Like even Dan was just playing in the sandbox Byrne built, and was obviously very reverent towards what Byrne had done. He didn't come in and try to overwrite it, he just kept it going.

Siiiiigh, those were the days, man. You went and got me all misty.

[Leo656]

This isn't really disparage Byrne's record but it's not exactly a huge suprise that he doesn't 'get' TMNT. The vast majority of his career is taking other peoples works and making his own head canon reality. Since he didn't grow up with he simply dismisses it. Not a simple 'this isn't for me' but he seems to have zero interest in it unless he has a nostalgic fondness for it.

Or, another way of looking at it is, when you're up high in the Penthouse, you're less inclined to concern yourself with what's going on down in The Slums. Harsh, but truthful.

It's like why guys who work for WWE don't watch indy wrestling in high school gyms. Why would they? Sure, some of those guys are "better", but they're not on the radar of anyone making a million dollars a year, nor should they be. They're barely even in the same business. Likewise, guys who work "Up Top" are often dismissive of the guys "Down Below". That's only natural, it doesn't make 'em bad people or anything.

Byrne never cared about TMNT because he was never inclined to care, he had no reason to. He was a millionaire juggling multiple "big" comics when the Mirage book came out, he probably never even heard of it. Did his kids watch the cartoon? I don't know, but that might be the only reason he ever heard of it in the first place, if so. MOST creators working in the industry back then only heard of TMNT when the cartoon hit, because they weren't in the business of being "fans" and they weren't following the independent scene, they were busy. Just like Seth Rollins has no idea who Joey Janela is. Why would he? Why would a guy who headlines PPVs know anything about a guy who works in front of 200 people in a gymnasium? Again, it's not all equal.

Maybe Byrne's a bit "snooty" about it, but so what? I've said this many times, and I know it irks some people here, but it's true nonetheless: If you weren't about 6 when you first saw TMNT, then TMNT just isn't a big deal. That was true to the generation that saw them in 1988, and it's true of people just discovering them now. It's Kids' Stuff, you need to be a kid when you first see it to really think it's cool. Otherwise, it's silly. Byrne was already an older guy when he would have first heard of TMNT, so it wouldn't even have any appeal for him in the first place.

I'm not saying that TMNT isn't a thing a person can encounter as kids and then still appreciate for their entire lives, because we all know better than that; what I AM saying, is that the things that make TMNT appealing are things that predominantly target The Very Young, and that's why older people who see it for the first time almost unanimously think it's stupid. It's like Star Wars or pro wrestling; nobody gets into either of those things for the very first time as adults, because they're stupid things! 99.9% of adults who care about either of those things, were like 5 the first time they saw them. That's just how these things go, and opinions on Other Peoples' Opinions should be adjusted accordingly. No grown-up (as Byrne was when TMNT was created) is gonna look at something like TMNT and think it's anything but junk. That's forgivable, in my opinion. They're not the audience.

Expecting John Byrne to have any appreciation for a brand that he was never in any way the audience for, is like asking a second grader who their favorite porn star is. They might have an opinion, but they're not the audience anyway, so nothing they say should have much of an effect.

[PizzaPower1985]

Sure Eastman and Laird are two guys who got lucky and a lot of the appeal of those early comics was it's haphazard home made nature however the two of them did improve quite a lot - you could even make an argument that the more polished they became as creators the more series lost some of it's initial quirky charm - but I do think they made some objectively good stuff.

Most of the big names in comic books only work for the big 2 until they get disillusioned with it. Still Murphy was critically lauded for his work on The Puma Blues when he went to work on turtles (granted he probably did it for he money and teach the kids about environmentalism, labour unions, the occupation of Tibet and spirituality) he also got Michael Zulli to work on property and Rick Remender. We know many big name writers have a soft spot for the property they just don't want to slum it on an indie book.

Sure, TMNT made a bigger name for themselves in animation and movies and toys and so on but that is true of all comic characters. Sure, TMNT is notable by how different the version that launched the franchise into the stratosphere is to the original but it's still at it's core the very same basic ideas and characters.

This isn't really disparage Byrne's record but it's not exactly a huge suprise that he doesn't 'get' TMNT. The vast majority of his career is taking other peoples works and making his own head canon reality. Since he didn't grow up with he simply dismisses it. Not a simple 'this isn't for me' but he seems to have zero interest in it unless he has a nostalgic fondness for it.

That last point is incredibly accurate. Byrne only enjoys books and is fond of them if he either created/worked on their characters OR grew up reading them. Kudos. You win the golden cupie doll. The rest of your argument about the Mirage stuff... is more just observational. Steve Murphy, not a big name compared to JB. Remender? The guys you mention are not even comparable to Byrne or Eastman and Laird for that matter. They are work for hire guys. They've rarely if ever done anything of note. Eastman and Laird are comics legends because of their creations. They might be underground guys but they're legends. Byrne, largely because of his 1980s meteoric rise and success is in a completely different class.

Sigh. That cover just jumped right off the rack. What a classic. So mind-blowing to a 5-year old.

What a clever story, too, with Joker using a very common misunderstanding of Superman's powers and essentially outsmarting himself into failing. Good sh*t, pal.

And the reasoning for why bother going to Metropolis and pestering Superman in the first place? "Ohhhhh, Superman... Why NOT?" :lol: Direct and to the point.

Y'know what else gets me hard, is all'a that early Silver Banshee stuff. SO GOOD, man. That one issue where they had Martian Manhunter help him out was keen.

People always comment on how incredible it is that Byrne's Superman run was so memorable despite being, ultimately, very short. But I mean, he did nothing BUT gold on the book(s) when he was on them, that's why. About a two-year run, not very long for Byrne, but long enough to make serious, serious impact and everything's a winner. It felt like he did five years of work instead of two because he was just so completely on fire with it.

Passing the torch to Jurgens was a very wise decision, even though I hated to see Byrne leave. But really, the fact that there didn't even seem to be much disruption, and all of Byrne's work still showed up in the book for the next 15+ years, speaks incredibly highly to just how impactful it was. He worked on Superman for two years, but they were still referencing his stuff for the next 20. That's incredible! Like even Dan was just playing in the sandbox Byrne built, and was obviously very reverent towards what Byrne had done. He didn't come in and try to overwrite it, he just kept it going.

Siiiiigh, those were the days, man. You went and got me all misty.

All this Superman talk is making my geek radar light up. But Byrne left the \S/ books for the largely same reason he left the F.F. books at Marvel. He was growing impatient and tired of editorial and apparently, according to him, the Superman he was writing started to become a different character than the Superman that DC was marketing on the lunchboxes and bedsheets and Pez dispensers. So, apparently it stopped being fun and he quit...

Watch this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjNIQk03AmE

[Leo656]

But man, that hand-off to Jurgens was so seamless that as a kid I frankly barely noticed. It was such a smooth transition. And Jurgens did PHENOMENAL stuff with the ideas that Byrne had built, it was just masterful.

[PizzaPower1985]

But man, that hand-off to Jurgens was so seamless that as a kid I frankly barely noticed. It was such a smooth transition. And Jurgens did PHENOMENAL stuff with the ideas that Byrne had built, it was just masterful.

Oh I'll definitely agree. The Stern/Jurgens/Carlin era after Byrne left was incredible. Jurgens' Superman art (maybe after Byrne???) is the best Superman art since Swan and has never been topped since.

That hand-off was a masterstroke!

[Dejablue]

Jesus Christ, there ought to be a hefty fine for saying such ignorant things out loud.

John Byrne has contributed more to the comic book industry every time he scratches his ass than Eastman and Laird have in their entire f*cking lives. C'mon. Don't be ridiculous.

I just don't give a f-uck about most super hero comic IPs. In fact I think Xmen is kind of stupid...

I'll watch their cartoon counterparts if I have nothing better to do. But I don't have enough disposable cash, to buy a bunch of comics or a place to put them.

I care about the TMNT. I don't care about Superman, X-Men or the Fantastic Four. That's all I can really say for myself.

[Leo656]

That's fine if it's the truth; it's just not something to be worn proudly like a badge of honor, that's all.

Some things are worth bragging about. Getting laid Freshman year, making the play that wins the Big Game, solving a Rubik's Cube with one hand, nailing the Bridesmaid at your sister's wedding while her boyfriend's at the bar... these are all brag-worthy accomplishments, certainly.

Saying, "I ignore Good Comics because I strongly prefer Mediocre-To-Bad ones as a matter of personal taste" isn't something to be shouted defiantly from the rooftops, though. :trazz: Not by anyone.

It's like sure, lots of things are true. Some people really hate Guns N Roses while at the same time really, really, REALLY loving Limp Bizkit. It's a true fact, some people are just wired like that. But y'know what else is a true fact? Those People generally have enough sense to keep that sh*t entirely to themselves, because even they know they're lunatics. :lol:

[PizzaPower1985]

I just don't give a f-uck about most super hero comic IPs. In fact I think Xmen is kind of stupid...

I'll watch their cartoon counterparts if I have nothing better to do. But I don't have enough disposable cash, to buy a bunch of comics or a place to put them.

I care about the TMNT. I don't care about Superman, X-Men or the Fantastic Four. That's all I can really say for myself.

That just means you're a TMNT fan. If you read only TMNT comics and don't like other superheroes or comics and GN's in general, you cannot ever be called a comics fan. Simple truth. It's just when you come into a thread about a comics creator and you see a couple of his fans conversing, why feel the need to comment at all? You're a TMNT fan... right? If you don't like Byrne, don't know his work and generally don't read or like other superheroes, why chime in?

Just curious, HONEY! Don't hate me. I'm not a jerk... just a curious, perhaps condescending, fan, sweetheart! :)

[Dejablue]

Because I can do and say whatever the f-uck I want and you're an idiot for thinking I don't have that right. :lol:

But seriously I don't owe you an explanation. You asked a question on a TMNT forum dumbass. I'm a member here. So I get to talk here.

[PizzaPower1985]

Because I can do and say whatever the f-uck I want and you're an idiot for thinking I don't have that right. :lol:

But seriously I don't owe you an explanation. You asked a question on a TMNT forum dumbass. I'm a member here. So I get to talk here.

Ouch! Don't hurt yourself, there, buddy. I call you honey and sweetheart and you call me idiot and dumbass? Now, that's not very nice! I was asking a legitimate question in the "why feel the need to comment at all" thing. Did I condescend? Maybe a little bit, yeah, but that's just because my ass is smart. Sorry for the mix up. There, I apologized. Your turn. Please apologize to me and we'll move on!

[Dejablue]

Ouch! Don't hurt yourself, there, buddy. I call you honey and sweetheart and you call me idiot and dumbass? Now, that's not very nice! I was asking a legitimate question in the "why feel the need to comment at all" thing. Did I condescend? Maybe a little bit, yeah, but that's just because my ass is smart. Sorry for the mix up. There, I apologized. Your turn. Please apologize to me and we'll move on!

Don't ever question my decision to post anywhere in this forum.

[PizzaPower1985]

Don't ever question my decision to post anywhere in this forum.

It wasn't exactly questioning your right per se to post here (you obviously always have that right), it was more just about asking why exactly you made the post you decided to make. Okay! Fair enough. Can we shake hands now? Friends?

[Leo656]

Deja's hyper-overreactions to even the tiniest bit of sass are both comical and tragic. :lol:

Self-awareness, Champ. P.P.85 and I might've been razzing you a little bit, but you invited it with your opening statement and it's all in fun, anyway. Not a good look to get all huffy when you say silly things and people in turn take umbrage to those things, and merely explain why those things are silly to say.

You are what we in the wrestling business call "un-coachable". As in, people often try and explain why you're offsides, and rather than say "Oh, I understand better now, thanks for the dialog", you get all "Screw you" this and "Don't ever tell me" that and calling people names. You take things personally when they're not. You take swings at people who aren't swinging at you. It's all very silly.

If you're not into the conversation, it's probably best to leave it alone. If you can't take a poke, then don't poke. No need to jump right to Attack Mode in what was previously a lighthearted exchange. I know that's generally your gimmick, but it's not a good look. You're obviously insightful in other threads, and that's awesome; More That, Less This.

That's my bit of good advice that I predict you're going to tell me to stick up my ass for no reason at all. :lol: But that's on you, I'unno. I just try and spread a little cheer and goodwill whenever the opportunity arises, people can like it or not, that's their prerogative. I'm only here to help.