Ninja Weapons... Technical & Historical Uses

[PizzaPower1985]

The more savvy among you MAY already know this... But I thought it'd be fun to look at the turtle's chosen weapons.

https://www.japaneseswords4samurai.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/ninjato-nin-to-training-sword-9.jpg

Some of the earliest depictions of the one called Leonardo do not feature the turtle wielding katana swords. They are "fake" nonexistent short swords known as ninjato (also called ninjaken, or shinobigatana) that have no basis in history. It was not a Shinobi weapon and comes out of popular imagination and was popularized in the 20th century Hong Kong movies. Swords like the ninjato did exist in Feudal Japan and onwards but they were closer to butterfly swords and daggers.


https://www.karatemart.com/images/products/large/20--octagon-ying-yang-sai.jpg

The ninja traditionally did not use swords but most often carried knives and daggers, and primarily used anything that was available for combat or anything that could be concealed for stealth. Police of the Edo period used sais or jitte (jutte) daggers. Samurai later adopted them as short arms or side arms.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/04/Nunchaku_%28Parts%29.JPG/400px-Nunchaku_%28Parts%29.JPG

Nunchakus were less common as well but did appear historically. They originated as the traditional weapon used in Okinawan army training and were thought to be invented by Japanese farmers as a primitive thresher. They were not popular weapons as they were ineffective against blades.

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/Ka4AAOSwnJxcqKlb/s-l640.jpg

The bo or boe-staff (aka bong (LoL), pang, bang or kun) is ancient and would probably be the most realistic object for a ninja. It originated with a fighting form called bojitsu or boiejutsu. The bo traveled from China as a tool used by Chinese monks and made its way to Okinawa where it became a weapon.


https://cdn.hiconsumption.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/History-Of-The-Samurai-Sword-5.jpg

The katana was of course a Samurai sword. Samurai were the opposite of ninjas. They were the medieval knights of the Orient. Somtimes the blade was squared off at the end, sometimes it had a pointed curve.

Leo's swords are sometimes depicted as katanas and this would probably be more accurate for him, as Leo is obsessed with the ways of bushido. However, wearing them on his back would be extremely heavy AND over time might ruin the blades as katanas have to be stored a certain way to prevent warpage and blade damage.

[Leo656]

On one hand, topics like this always are informative and entertaining since I probably know less than the average bear about it. And it's cool that a lot of people were inspired to learn so much about the topic thanks to TMNT, at least in part.

On the other, they always tickle me because I know that the fans who take part in the discussion generally did about 1000% more research than Eastman or Laird did when they created the thing. :lol:

[PizzaPower1985]

On one hand, topics like this always are informative and entertaining since I probably know less than the average bear about it. And it's cool that a lot of people were inspired to learn so much about the topic thanks to TMNT, at least in part.

On the other, they always tickle me because I know that the fans who take part in the discussion generally did about 1000% more research than Eastman or Laird did when they created the thing. :lol:

Yeah. Those guys just did what every comic book artist does... Ape from pop culture, watch Hong Kong flicks and read and borrow from other comics. Pretty much delivered what was expected of American ninja fiction.

And I just found out... Bruce Lee has an entire subgenre of film named after him. Bruceploitation! Hundreds of martial arts action films where the main character is made to look, act and sound just like Bruce Lee.

[IndigoErth]

Always found it interesting that some weapons probably originate from farm tools, though it make perfect sense if that's what you had in your hands all day.

The people who insist Leo uses ninjato, not katana, bug me though. Some of them maybe straight, but if a show, etc calls them katana, then it just comes down to art style. Esp in hand drawn cartoons, it's just less time consuming to make them straight frame after frame. Maybe it's just me, but no way in hell could I keep that curve consistent. lol

[Leo656]

Eh, when I write Leo, I just say "katana" because it's easier. But I draw them straight, because again, Easier.

I guess at the end I'm just a lazy ass who don't give a sh*t. :lol: I mean, I do, just not enough to inconvenience myself in any way. :trazz:

[oknazevad]

Only thing I absolutely must state is that sai are not daggers. They're rarely sharpened to a point, and wielding them is more clubbing, parrying, and disarming than stabbing. They're truncheons.

And they might or might not have originated as farming tools. The turtles' weapons (except Leo's swords) are really weapons from Okinawan kobudō. "Kobudō" is a catch-all Japanese term for martial arts that predate the Meiji Restoration (indeed it literally translates as "old martial way"). In the Okinawan case, it refers mostly to the old weapons of the island, which was once a very small, independent agricultural and maritime economy. Subsequently the old weapons were the sort that a poor peasant could adapt from common items. In addition to the straight staff (bō) the boat oar was a weapon. So was the sickle (kama), a side-handled baton (tonfa), and the simple spear and shield (the latter of which was often made from a sea turtle shell!). None of which, outside the straight staff which can be found in almost all cultures, were likely common on mainland Japan for historical ninja to use, as Okinawa wasn't annexed by Japan yet during the height of the ninja era. Funnily enough, the chances are more likely that historical ninja would use simply made swords than any of the others, though the modern "ninjato" is not the form they would use. They would have actually used... katana. Inexpensive versions, not the top quality family heirlooms of samurai, but katana none the less. Shuriken, bow and arrow, and kursarigama, were also used, the latter also doubling as a climbing implement.

[miru]

I like how these are actually in contrast to the 1980s millitary weapons of Rocksteady, and I do like exploring all the technical and non-combat uses of them.

[Hamato Yoshi]

"They were not popular weapons as they were ineffective against blades"

Except for Bruce Lee "chucking" away in Chinese Connection :lol:

(and Chuck Norris.....nothing can stop him , you know. Except Bruce Lee did once ;)

[kerorokatak]

I love studying this field. In general I love Japanese culture and it is my dream to go there. I read every day about all these swords and so on and it feels so unreal and unique.

[Iroh]

I am happy that this thread exists because this is my specialty in what I got my degree in. Yay! First, I would like to shed light on the whole katana vs ninja-to controversy. In history, metal or "tamahagane" (traditional high carbon steel) was very hard to come by in feudal Japan. The cultivation of the metal to the processing of blades took months to create. Thus, lots of money had to be spent on artisans to create swords for samurai during that time. Wearing katana alone showed civilians that the carrier of the "daisho" (katana and tanto pair) had some type of rank and nobility. During the smelting, tempering, and quenching process of tamahagane, all blades will have that signature curve in the spine of the blade known and the "mune"(blade spine). In the 80s during the ninja boom from Sho Kosugi films, Hollywood wanted to make movie magic with the ninja lore. Since Katana were to heavy to carry for the actors in every take, directors added the "ninja-to" to the films. In history, the ninja-to did not exist. The ninja-to is really a bastardized wakizashi without the "mune" of the blade. Remember; the only metal in feudal japan back then was tamahagane for weaponry. Tamahagane has to be forged by the heating and folding process in order to be a functional sword. This gives the metal the curved mune when quenched. Ninja-to are straight. So, the answer is right there. Other cutlery such as cleavers and regular knives for cooking and meat cutting came from the manipulation of tamahagane. In order to make either a cleaver or a regular cooking knife, artisans took the failed katana blades and made "tanto"(short sword) A wise person would not run into battle against a horde of samurai with just a tanto right? lol Since these blades were made from FAILED katana, it was only used for two things; suicide or cooking. Forgive me for being so wordy in this post. I can talk about this all day. When you have a masters in Foreign Languages, you will learn the history of the language and the history of the people who speak the language as well.

[LegionareX]

It’s fascinating to learn about the history and craftsmanship behind these iconic weapons. The distinction between the katana and the ninja-to, especially the role? ?f tamahagane, adds? a lot? ?f?*depth? t? our understanding? ?f feudal Japan. Your insights?*about the ninja-to?*being? a Hollywood creation and the real uses? ?f?*tanto blades are enlightening.? I appreciate the detailed explanation and?*would love? t? hear more?*about the cultural and historical aspects? ?f?*these weapons.

[Iroh]

It’s fascinating to learn about the history and craftsmanship behind these iconic weapons. The distinction between the katana and the ninja-to, especially the role? ?f tamahagane, adds? a lot? ?f?*depth? t? our understanding? ?f feudal Japan. Your insights?*about the ninja-to?*being? a Hollywood creation and the real uses? ?f?*tanto blades are enlightening.? I appreciate the detailed explanation and?*would love? t? hear more?*about the cultural and historical aspects? ?f?*these weapons.

I apologize. I could not understand what you have typed here. I got bits and piece of it but the rest is unreadable. Are you from a foreign country where English is not your primary language? It seems like Johhny 5 has typed your response with all of those special characters used.

[LegionareX]

I'm also fascinated by the history and technical aspects of ninja and samurai weapons. I've read a lot about how ninjas adapted everyday objects for combat, while samurais were more about their specialized weapons and the bushido code.

Katanas are particularly intriguing to me. The craftsmanship and the history behind each blade are simply amazing. I've always loved samurai culture and Japanese history, and for years, I wanted to own a katana. Recently, I found a katana sword for sale (https://www.katanasword.is/) that looked perfect. I decided to buy it, and it’s been one of the best purchases I’ve made. The sword is beautifully crafted, with a detailed hilt and a sharp, well-balanced blade.

[Iroh]

Ah. I understand now. Thank you for your reply. I do too. In my classes, it seems that I was one of the few that was excited about learning about this information. Samurai were decorated soldiers for their lord that they served back then. They were more commonly called "bushi"(warrior) more than samurai. The term samurai itself means "to serve". If there was no lord to serve, how can they be called samurai? This is the reason why many bushi became displaced. They became either monks, ronin(wanderer), or ninja. The term ninja itself means "person who endures". Anyway, people really don't know that the female ninja were the most deadly in history. They were known as "kunoichi". History never wants women to outshine men but it happened a lot in Japan. If you want to learn more about kunoichi, let me know.

[IndigoErth]

Oh, feel free to keep sharing, anything about kunoichi (and perhaps those rare lady samurai if your studies taught anything about them) is definitely welcome reading. And thanks for the interesting info you've already posted! Glad that next time some ninny tries to argue in defense of the ninjato being "real" I can link them this. :tcool:

[Iroh]

Oh, feel free to keep sharing, anything about kunoichi (and perhaps those rare lady samurai if your studies taught anything about them) is definitely welcome reading. And thanks for the interesting info you've already posted! Glad that next time some ninny tries to argue in defense of the ninjato being "real" I can link them this. :tcool:

Thank you very much. I just don't want to go off on a tangent and start giving the readers here a history class. :lol: Plus, this thread is mainly about the weapons being talked about. I feel that in order to properly understand the making of the weapons, one must know about the history of the people who wielded the weapons. Now, on to the kunoichi. All through Japan's history, the Japanese heavily borrowed everything from China. The writing and numerical system of Japan was all written in "hanzi"(chinese characters). Even though verbal communication was the same as you hear it now, communication between different continents or countries in written form would not exist without the women of Japan. The primary job of women of nobility in Japan was to keep record of all events through written word. Thus, they have created the writing systems of hiragana and katakana. These two writing systems that the noble women created gave Japan its independence in written word. The syllabary of the written systems gave the Japanese people better ways of pronouncing their own words correctly. You see? Women were already in high status in feudal Japan if they were under a lord's roof. In the movies, you only see women as farmers, housewives, geisha, whores, and ninja women running around in shozoku. LMAO! To break it down, the term kunoichi means woman itself. Let's look at the kanji that makes the character for woman. To write this character correctly, you need to write it in 3 strokes; ku, no, and ichi. Put it together and you will have the character for woman. Noble women during the feudal era had secret agendas like assassinations that was carried out by the command of their lord. They didn't perform the tasks by dressing up in shozoku, throwing shakken, and sneaking around at night. They walked right through the front doors of their enemies home while either dressed as geisha, shamisen players, or peasants depending on the objective. Assassinations were carried out by the use of poison made by them or by stabbing during intimacy. Many noble men were caught with their pants down more back then in feudal Japan than now. Disguise is what made the ninja lore popular in movies. Women were the originators of it. No smoke bombs, kusarigama, or ninjato were used at all. :lol: In conclusion, this is the reason why the kunoichi were the most deadly. The writing system, verbal communication, and assassination by disguise made them a force to be reckoned with. Woohoo! The more you know now!

[LegionareX]

Presently, jumping into the kunoichi, it's captivating how the social trade between Japan and China molded so much of what we know nowadays. The respectable women's part in making the hiragana and katakana composing frameworks is without a doubt a confirmation to their impact and insights. These frameworks not as it were encouraged exact elocution but too manufactured a interesting Japanese composed character.

It's captivating to think of these ladies, frequently depicted in well known media as simple foundation figures or cliché parts, as the genuine aces of surveillance and death. The real-life kunoichi utilized their social positions and masks to execute their missions with accuracy, mixing consistently into their situations. This stealth and tricky outperform the dramatized delineations of ninjas in shozoku with smoke bombs and showy weapons.

The chronicled reality that respectable ladies may carry out dangerous missions in plain locate, leveraging their societal parts, paints a striking picture of their vital brilliance. They were not fair warriors within the shadows but influencers within the daylight, seamlessly coordination their deadly aptitudes into way of life.

Thank you for shedding light on this nuanced history. It's a capable update of the often-underestimated parts ladies played in forming medieval Japan. Woohoo! The more we learn, the more we appreciate their uncommon commitments!

[Andrew NDB]

Basically, Leonardo's katanas were always supposed to be curved but either: #1: it's pure artist laziness in not making them consistently curved (I think Dooney is the only one that ever bothered), or, #2: they are hand-forged by, say, Splinter, and his resources were limited. Too limited to create any sort of curve. Also, one of them should always have been drawn a little shorter than the other, as they are supposed to be daisho, meaning a katana-wakizashi pair. Since you wouldn't really -- ever -- see anyone dual-wielding twin katana blades. And this can easily also be attributed to #1 or #2 above.

[Iroh]

You are very welcome, LegionaireX. I'm glad I was able to inform you with the things you wanted to learn. Yes, AndrewNDB. Splinter had to use what he had in his limited arsenal. Since tamahagane is only created in Japan, Splinter had to use weaker metals such as stainless steel for Leo's ninjato. If you have a background in metallurgy, one will know that the heating process differs from high carbon steel. When quenched, stainless steel doesn't curve. Chinese sword scammers will manipulate the steel shape to force a mune in their pawn shop wall hanger katana. lol Little kids and Japanese weebs will buy those blades thinking they have fully functional katana. Then, they will snap and send them to the ER when they try to cut targets. Great observation there!