So what happens with the next virus? [Archive]

Leo656

09-12-2020, 11:37 AM

Too many "coincidences" all at once for it to NOT be man-made. I never even believe in ONE coincidence happening at once; this would require, like, multiple "coincidences". Along with willfully ignoring that Chinese nationals were getting caught sneaking manufactured biological weapons into the U.S. as recently as five or so years ago. Along with ignoring that the Obama administration paid money to and assisted the Chinese government in developing said weapons for reasons mysterious. Technically High Treason, BUT what else is new with That Guy. He gave guns to Mexican drug cartels, gave dangerous diseases to China, dropped bombs on thousands of civilians via drone strikes while nestled in the safety of his country club... BEST President EVAR! :lol:

The dots are big and bold and very easy to connect. China was tinkering with population control methods, possibly with our government's "help", and things went south from there. "Oops". But no, ALL of that stuff can't be true AND this just happens by accident for no reason. ALL things are connected.

They wouldn't create a plague without also having a way to reign it in. Nobody's THAT stupid. But, they also have ALL the leverage over the entire world because the entire world relies on their slave labor. They don't have to share anything they don't want to, they know nobody's gonna do anything about it. They're sitting there laughing while everybody else tries to reverse-engineer something that they already have in hand, just waiting for the U.S. government to cave in and write 'em a big, fat check so we can have a little bit of medicine, while we pray they didn't put something horrible in THAT, either.

I mean, sure, anything is possible technically. As in maybe this was the one kind of "bad meat" that gives you a respiratory illness instead of a gastrointestinal one like, y'know, everything else does. By the same exact logic that, "Well, we can't entirely DISPROVE Santa Claus. He might be there, for all we know!"

When things like this happens, you should ALWAYS ask, "Who benefits?" The answer, in this case, being China. They're up there playing a fiddle while the world burns. And they know nothing's gonna happen to them because everyone is enslaved to them and their cheap labor.

That's what happens when you cultivate a global society that values cheap thrills and cheap sneakers over people's lives. This was inevitable.

IndigoErth

09-12-2020, 12:41 PM

Well obviously it was the Shadow People.

No really, it is what it is -- but not in the way the president means. We don't live in a vacuum, there is no exact playbook or magic tome of prediction for WHEN or WHAT or HOW any of this can, could, or will happen or how it would need to be responded to if a similar one occurred.

And I wouldn't assume it's destined for this to suddenly now become a constant thing that keeps happening. Few in the large coronavirus family infect humans, even fewer are bad news. This was a rare one. Just like the 1918 influenza pandemic was a rare one, because most flu strains generally aren't that bad for most and in over 100 years it hasn't mutated another strain that has repeated the severity of that one.

Sure, it could any day now, but that's like always waiting and expecting "the big one" to hit in a relatively seismic stable region... What is the sick joy in the fear of assuming it'll happen any day now even when the probabilities are low. I guess the same brain quirk that causes some to repeatedly try to "predict" yet another date that the world will end.

But back then in 1918 they also didn't have quite as much of the knowledge or the tools at their disposal to combat it as we do now.

Humanity is smart, it is capable of so much, yet it insists on failing so greatly even when we could be capable of getting through near anything if we'd cut the crap and just do what's needed to get past a challenge like this. Some try, but not enough. Really, just wtf.

Honestly, I'm just disappointed in us, as human beings, in general and esp in my own nation. We are the ONE species on this planet capable of understanding how this stuff works, the only species smart enough to respond in a knowledgeable enough way to protect ourselves, and yet we can't deal with it. Instead it devolves into a global drama queen meltdown of blame, conspiracy, and other bulls*** because temporary masks and other "best practices" are inconvenient and empathy isn't cool anymore. Again... wtf.

And sorry, this whole "China did it, it HAD to be done on purpose" conspiracy crap is utter BS. (Possibly stupid habits from them such as the wet markets? Sure. On purpose...highly doubtful.) Even if it WAS, why are many people who believe that so weak in their response? No, they are probably not going to get their wish and see China bombed for it, so the response to it has been what then? Just allow a virus to continue to run rampant because masks, etc are inconvenient? Don't try to cut a "manufactured" virus off at the pass by responding in ways that limit it's ability to continue? Nah, forget that, just come on in, Virus, make yourself at home, we'll just allow you to keep spreading because... I dunno... muh freedom and maybe it feeds a victim complex and drama is fun to some people. Yeah, that's real cute.

In before thread lock.

Leo656

09-12-2020, 01:07 PM

You're over-simplifying and projecting.

- China being responsible isn't "Complete and utter BS", it's what probably actually happened. Bad meat doesn't give you the sniffles, it gives you a tummy ache. Outbreak happened right around the corner from the largest biological weapons lab in the entire world. 2+2. C'mon. Their own PEOPLE don't even believe the cover story. Every Single Thing the Chinese government said from Day one has been proven to be a lie, from "It's not that bad" to "it's getting better already". But they're gonna tell the truth about THIS part? :roll:

- People argue against wearing masks because they don't believe the official story. And little by little, the "official story" has been PROVEN to be exaggerated at best and outright lies at worst. Has NOTHING to do with "lack of empathy", and everything to do with people looking objectively at a situation and saying, "SOMEthing is wrong. These things DON'T add up. They're manipulating the situation for some reason and therefore I Don't Trust These People."

I don't trust them either. Oh, I follow "The Rules", but once it came out and was PROVEN that hospitals were puffing up the numbers of COVID deaths so they could get more grant money, I stopped believing the "official" story.

- The long-term economic ramifications of this are going to be WAY worse than a few people dying from a virus, people who we're now finding out were most likely gonna die anyway. 70% of small businesses, closed forever. Entire families homeless. Amazon and Netflix make record profits. Do The Math. Far-left Democrats want to create Universal basic Income and create a nation of freeloaders who don't work. NOW we suddenly have a society where going outside makes you an irresponsible nitwit. "Just stay at home and don't work, we'll even pay you!" Again, Do The Math.

There are LOTS of very Good Reasons why people are raging against the machine right now, and not all of it is politically or racially-motivated. It's just plain common sense.

- China lied about the virus's origins.
- The media capitalized on it being an election year and used it as ammo for their "Anyone But Trump" narrative.
- The numbers of deaths are fake.
- More people are going to die from being Poor than will from being Sick when this is all said and done.
- MOST people don't get sick.
- MOST people will be fine even if they do get sick.
- None of this needed to happen.

But sure. Let's all just keep bending over and believing The Official Report when it's been factually proven to be nothing but agenda-driven misinformation.

We'll see how fast this all goes away post-November, depending on how the election goes.

But no, in the meantime let's not demonize people for walking around with their eyes open. What's REALLY going on is plain as day for anyone to see, the rest is just a matter of how adamantly a person NEEDS to believe that their side are "The Good Guys".

You can't be "paranoid" when the facts say there really IS more than meets the eye.

And please, let's stop the "Blame America" stuff. We didn't do anything wrong and it's in our nature to disbelieve obvious lies and bullsh*t. "It's better in other countries, the numbers aren't as bad in other countries." Y'know WHY? Because it's not an election year over there! THUS they don't have to float a bunch of inflated and artificial statistics and try to pin this all on some demonic boogeyman whose absolute worst sin was trying to avoid mass panic by telling the truth: "It ain't that bad and most people aren't gonna get it." Whaaaat a monster.

But yeah, it's not our fault. I have a reeeeaaaaaal problem with accepting any blame that isn't mine. So if people wouldn't do that, that'd be great.

China's fault. Blame China. Nobody else. Just China.
----------

Meanwhile, in this part of Joisey, numbers going down. It's about 75% of people wearing masks when they go to a store or something but to a man, every single person will tell you that they think this is all bullsh*t. Nobody's gotten sick or knows a single person who has. And one wonders WHY some people have a hard time going along? In such a densely populated area full of "Can't tell me what to do" types, there ought to have been a ton of outbreaks. But there weren't. Everybody is Fine. So again... can't fault people for calling it as they see it. They're gonna trust what's in front of their own face more than they're going to believe some empty suit on TV. That's just the way it is, AND they're not wrong for doing it.

Sumac

09-12-2020, 04:38 PM

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

09-12-2020, 05:00 PM

What happens next?

I stay home, keep working remotely, have a great excuse to avoid people I don't like, and keep paying Netflix. :tlol:

triplexxx

09-12-2020, 05:07 PM

Since most if not all of us, who weren't born this year, won't be around to see 2118-2120, I don't believe we need worry about the next time.

neatoman

09-12-2020, 05:12 PM

Leo656

09-12-2020, 07:02 PM

Economy will crash.
Governments will become more authoritarian under the cover, of "caring about safety of people".
Corporations will further encroach on people's privacy by pretending that "everything they do is for people".

Eventually system will crash.
Revolutions are everywhere, millions of dead, military comes in power and starts genuine tyranny to save everyone from fighting everyone.
At some point they transform into democracy and so on and so on.

The same old dance humanity was doing for the rest of its history.

Unless someone will have a bright idea to swing around some nuclear missiles.

Yep.

I've been thinking, how long can this sort of thing realistically go on? Let's say a virus with the kill rate of COVID-19 hits again and it doesn't seem to go away at all, how long can the safety measures be enforced before it's a bigger inconvenience than the virus itself? It seems like, eventually, you'd have to let society take the hit.

Yep.

What happens next?

I stay home, keep working remotely, have a great excuse to avoid people I don't like, and keep paying Netflix. :tlol:

Meanwhile, my livelihood was entirely wiped out. "Because something bad MIGHT happen." I have serious doubts I'll ever be able to work again, quite frankly. I'm very good at a few specific things, but those skills no longer apply in "The New Normal" so I'm pretty well f*cked.

And oh boy, are all the people who used to go to my gym pissed off. Y'see, THEY didn't get sick, either. And neither did anyone they know. They're asking why this all had to happen "for no good reason" and I frankly don't have any answers besides, "I know, it's bullsh*t."

I kinda think next time something like this happens you're going to see even more resistance to "protocol", because MOST people are not convinced that this whole "scorched Earth" approach was even necessary. But we're damn sure all paying for it regardless.

I get it. Nobody wants to kill Grandma. But y'know, at some point enough is enough. If Pelosi can get her hair done and walk around without a mask on at her leisure, people need to be allowed to go back to normal already.

If it ain't any better by now after six months, then it's as much "better" as it's gonna get. And if it gets worse, well... Nobody lives forever.

Sumac

09-13-2020, 07:58 AM

I've been thinking, how long can this sort of thing realistically go on? Let's say a virus with the kill rate of COVID-19 hits again and it doesn't seem to go away at all, how long can the safety measures be enforced before it's a bigger inconvenience than the virus itself? It seems like, eventually, you'd have to let society take the hit.
That is the most logical conclusion.
Even if people will survive, the economy and infrastructure will be in shambles, which means a lot of people will die, fighting for whats left of the resources. Others will commit suicide or leave wherever they can.

I've seen it back in the 90s and it was pretty bad. But Russia survived mooching of USSR legacy. Imagine if country has no legacy of the superpower it might lead to complete collapse.

Voltron

09-15-2020, 04:22 AM

I've been thinking, how long can this sort of thing realistically go on? Let's say a virus with the kill rate of COVID-19 hits again and it doesn't seem to go away at all, how long can the safety measures be enforced before it's a bigger inconvenience than the virus itself? It seems like, eventually, you'd have to let society take the hit.

Until the systems we have in place can compensate for the change.

Any social system we invent is inevitably going to have a delay when a big change comes.

When COVID hit, we didn't have the supplies necessary to meet the projected demand. Hence the whole "flatten the curve" campaign and the focus on PPE and ventilators.

Should this become the new norm, everything will adjust to that new norm.

Or we could just blame other people and demand a cure that probably isn't there. Seriously, if this was a biological attack, it is a really crappy one.

MsMarvelDuckie

09-15-2020, 08:51 AM

Until the systems we have in place can compensate for the change.

Any social system we invent is inevitably going to have a delay when a big change comes.

When COVID hit, we didn't have the supplies necessary to meet the projected demand. Hence the whole "flatten the curve" campaign and the focus on PPE and ventilators.

Should this become the new norm, everything will adjust to that new norm.

Or we could just blame other people and demand a cure that probably isn't there. Seriously, if this was a biological attack, it is a really crappy one.

Extremely crappy. It hit the REST OF THE WORLD before it ever really even got going here. China itself, along with Italy (why there?) were the hardest hit until we overtook them both out of sheer pig-headedness and stupidity. No, that has no markings of a bio weapon, more like a bad flu gone "viral", as it were. And as with most such things, the origin point was among the worst hit, simply because literally NO ONE saw it coming!

Leo656

09-15-2020, 10:17 AM

So it's entirely outside the realm of possibility that a country like China, full of billions of people and constantly struggling with the realities of massive overpopulation, with an evil totalitarian government that literally keeps their people slaves and would be perfectly happy stuffing 1/3 or more of their population into ovens so long as they didn't have to feed them if only they could get away with it, and who dabble in bio-weapons research like it's a goddamn hobby and who had people already caught repeatedly smuggling dangerous diseases into the U.S. not even five years ago... whose own civilian population do not believe this was an accident and generally feel that the government of China did this on purpose... a government who's been caught lying about every single aspect of the pandemic since the very beginning of it and even before... they would NEVER have manufactured a disease designed to kill off huge swaths of their own population by way of controlling the numbers of said population, and there's also NO way the experiment could have gotten out of hand.

The Chinese government isn't evil, they don't screw around with diseases, they didn't get caught sneaking samples of manufactured plague viruses into the U.S. multiple times, the Wuhan lab being near the outbreak was a big coincidence, and they haven't lied once throughout the entire affair. That's what you're telling me, and what you expect me to believe. "Because other places got it too." Am I getting this right?

So... these are all just big giant dots floating in space, then, and anyone who can easily connect them into a crystal clear picture is a paranoid fool. That's what "rational-minded" people believe?

That's adorable. It's absolutely adorable that THAT's the picture you can form out of the plethora of factual information that exists and is all too easy to find. I don't mean the conspiracy nut bullsh*t, I mean simply The Facts As We Know Them, which I've already laid out in full.

I can believe that the virus wasn't meant to spread outside of China's borders. Or that if it was, they thought it would be contained better than it ended up being. I can not and will not believe this was all an accident over some tainted beef. That's the LEAST likely scenario out of a million possible scenarios. The pedo ring conspiracies are ludicrous, but so is "Someone ate a ________ and now everyone's coughing themselves to death." For one thing, that's not even generally what happens when a person eats tainted meat, but OKAY then. For the sake of argument, we'll pretend that This One Time some bad meat unleashed a plague of people coughing themselves to death instead of bleeding out the ass like every other time. It's STILL the least-likely scenario and requires ignoring all other Facts in order to believe it. And I can't ignore THAT many things at once.

Tell me WHY the Chinese government has been experimenting with manufactured plague viruses for years upon years, then, if NOT for reasons of controlling their population numbers. These aren't things I or anyone else simply made up, there are facts everyone knows. So, what then... they have people working in a lab 24/7-365 making designer viruses that are meant to... NOT be used? The U.S government has even been quietly complicit in said experiments, something else that's been (quietly) exposed and reported more than once. We've sold them our own research and experiments into designer viruses and such. Part of our little "quid pro quo" with them, as it were.

If people are tinkering with homemade killer germs, it's so they can use them one day. And anyone who manufactures a plague and doesn't also manufacture a way to control it is an idiot. Therefore I'm inclined to believe there's a vaccine. Nobody working for either the U.S. OR Chinese government has died from this "killer virus", and they're never going to. Which leads me to even more questions, like "How much of this virus came from the stuff WE sold China a few years ago?" Unsettling questions, sure, but you have to ask them.

You can blame a President for all of this simply because you hate the guy, despite the fact that he has everything to lose by the numbers going up because it's going to potentially cost him re-election. Still, you can believe that him telling people bad advice born of ignorance is all part of his Evil Master Plan rather than just him being an idiot. But you CAN'T believe that a government run by actual super-villains was playing God over in Wuhan and it turned out worse than they planned for it to.

Again, that's adorable, but it's not what's going on.

If you see a giant puddle of milk on the floor, and a cracked jug of milk sitting on the counter top and your kid has a guilty look on their face... are you gonna BELIEVE their silly story that some other random kid ran in with their own milk, spilled it on the floor and then left, just to make your kid look bad? No, of course not, that's silly. Just like it's silly to believe that there's a giant f*cking bio-weapons lab right next door to Patient Zero and they magically had NOTHING to do with any of this.

Dots. Gigantic f*cking dots. Connect them or don't, but don't pretend Your Version of the story isn't patently ridiculous in ignoring them.

China wanted to kill off a few stragglers inside their own borders. It got messy. Now we're all dealing with it. And we will be until Uncle Sam cuts them a check. Hence the constant back-and-forth over relief funds, who gets what and when... they have to make sure they can afford all that AND afford to pay the Chinese government for the vaccine. This Is Reality.

You can say it's outrageous. I say it's all perfectly logical, A-B-C. Again, we're not talking pedo rings or 5G or Bill Gates, or jet fuel melting steel beams or "blood for oil". I don't entertain that nonsense as it has nothing to do with The Facts As We Know Them. We're talking about facts, logic, and cause-and-effect, nothing more. China creates plague viruses. One of them slipped out of the lab. "Oops." Deal with it. If the people living there believe it - and many of them apparently do - then that's enough to reinforce my belief in what I already know. If the people living at Ground Zero think their own government did this, then you should too. The facts do NOT support the "It was all a big cosmic accident" narrative. I'm sorry, but they don't.

I could live with people's naivete if they weren't so smarmy and preachy about it, pointing fingers at everyone except the people who actually DID this. Bad People Did A Bad Thing. It was inevitable, it HAD to happen eventually. I know you all like your cheap sneakers, but the fact that nobody's ever going to be held accountable for this sh*t is horrific.

They or anyone should not be allowed to play God and tinker with homemade plague viruses. But they do, and they did, and Now This. This is what you get. What did you/they THINK was gonna happen? That they could just have their little germ warfare facility and we could all just look the other way forever and nothing bad was EVER gonna happen?

C'mon. Just accept that Bad People Did A Bad Thing and we're all paying for it. Anything else, you may as well believe in Santa Claus. Sorry, these things matter.

They matter because IF we all look the other way on this, and IF China gets away with it, then mark my words... it WILL happen again, only much worse. Because that's what happens when you give a mouse a cookie.

If we're serious about fixing sh*t, and furthermore preventing it from ever happening again, you HAVE to 1. Point the finger at the actual guilty party, and 2. F*cking spank 'em. Otherwise, they don't learn nothin'.

OR, just sit on your hands and pray. Lord knows THAT always gets results.

Voltron

09-15-2020, 08:11 PM

Is it within the realm of possibility? Sure.

But what was their goal? To control their population? To destabilize rival powers?

First, they currently have extermination camps. Everyone knows about them. There's also a video of a tank running over a guy in the middle of the street. There was a one child policy. Population control isn't a big deal here.

Why the hell would you go to all the work of synthesizing a disease to do something you're already doing in broad daylight, anyway? To destabilize rival nations? Facebook and Tumblr do that already for free.

So I'm supposed to believe that China poured millions, if not billions of dollars and heaven knows how many hours into creating a disease to kill off a few people that they could've just shot?

That doesn't make any sense.

Then comes the argument that COVID isn't that bad. People have argued that there's no sense being worried or taking precautions because

A. It doesn't affect healthy people

and

B. We're all going to die eventually anyway.

So now we have a virus that is both deadly and devastating AND not a big deal so we should all just go to work. It was masterfully designed by evil geniuses to kill people somewhere but it doesn't work that well. There's a cure for it that no one has seen or heard of.

Spies exist. Someone would've said SOMETHING by now.

Do you know what kind of windfall a cure for COVID would be at the moment? And while it would be tantamount to a guilty plea, I doubt the Chinese government would have any qualms about selling it to the rest of the world, playing the hero and getting rich at the same time. Again, they have concentration camps operating in full view of the world.

Nothing you're saying adds up. The furthest I'd go is that there may have been an accident at a lab somewhere and COVID happened to get out by chance.

Otherwise, if you're aiming to really cause some havoc, release a deadlier disease. Give a nuke to terrorists. Fund revolutionary militant political fringe groups.

EDIT:

Also, why the hell would someone release a virus in the hopes of destabilizing a global economy they're benefiting from? The West gives billions upon billions of dollars to China for all sorts of goods. China's just going to end that cash flow? Because they're evil? This sounds like something from a Saturday morning cartoon.

Leo656

09-15-2020, 08:21 PM

The furthest I'd go is that there may have been an accident at a lab somewhere and COVID happened to get out by chance.

This is ultimately what I believe happened. But I allow for the fact that there may have been aspirations for something much "worse" to happen at a later date. Others can disbelieve if they choose. I don't think what happened was entirely on purpose but I do believe they were, and are, dealing in shady sh*t and that we're all now paying the fright on their mistake.

Past that, a LOT of sh*t happens in dark rooms behind closed doors that we're never going to be privy to and I don't think we'll ever know the full story, but that in the end there's a more sinister hand at work here. I think it's naive to dismiss that possibility outright, and on at least a superficial level, you agree with that.

Otherwise, we can agree to disagree, and that's fine. Like I said, we'll never know. Some Chinese scientist could come out tomorrow and say outright that he/she created it, and they still might just be a patsy for the state, assigned to take the fall so that it looks like things are wrapped up neat and tidy, all the while being a distraction for something else. And still, we'd never know. That's how these things go, unfortunately.

All I'll say in closing is that NOTHING is "by accident" and things don't just happen. There ARE no "accidents", merely a lack of care. And that remains fundamentally true whether we're talking about a government experimenting with bio-weapons, or a country where people in 2020 think it's still okay to eat raw bats and pangolins. Either way, people look the other way and call it "culture", and they shouldn't do that.

There needs to be accountability. No matter which version of events is true, this happened because people looked the other way on things they should not have looked the other way on. And now we're all paying for it.

Whether it's their death-dealing experiments or the fact that they have billions of dollars yet force their people to live like it's a third-world country, their "culture" needs an intervention. And if it had happened sooner, we wouldn't be in this mess.

That's really all I can say about it. Either way, too late now.

Voltron

09-15-2020, 08:32 PM

[QUOTE=Leo656]All I'll say in closing is that NOTHING is "by accident" and things don't just happen. There ARE no "accidents", merely a lack of care. And that remains fundamentally true whether we're talking about a government experimenting with bio-weapons, or a country where people in 2020 think it's still okay to eat raw bats and pangolins. Either way, people look the other way and call it "culture", and they shouldn't do that.

Here's the problem: this idea of dangerous aspects of culture cuts both ways. Look at the Oscar thread. That's a criticism of our "culture". A lot of people feel it's an unnecessary attack and that it poses an existential threat.

Demanding a group of people change who they are isn't going to happen unless everyone gets on board with the same definition of civilization.

There needs to be accountability. No matter which version of events is true, this happened because people looked the other way on things they should not have looked the other way on. And now we're all paying for it.

THIS is the killer, though. What does accountability look like? Is it war? Is it increased sanctions? What is to be done to punish a world power?

What if the United States was guilty of something like this? I mean, we've been accused of hundreds of crimes against humanity, and we've never ONCE faced accountability for it.

What's to be done?

Andrew NDB

09-15-2020, 08:39 PM

Myself, I'm not of the mind that the virus was bio-engineered or created for some nefarious purpose (population control, whether in China or here). At the same time, I don't completely rule that out either.

It is interesting, though, that the virus is juuuust lethal enough (as in, basically just killing obese people or immuno-compromised people or the very old) to cause a pandemic lockdown to devastate the economy (the one thing that you-know-who could always point to as flourishing under his watch, previously) and forcibly taking jobs away from people, forcing them to rely on the government's teet and getting them used to that. Because all of this really seems to create very favorable conditions for one very vocal side of the country. Could a people hate a man soooo much? I mean, apparently.

Now, I'm not even suggesting something nefarious. I just find it very interesting.

Leo656

09-15-2020, 08:42 PM

If people can't collectively and unanimously decide that no "civilization" needs to encourage either manufactured plagues OR eating raw and rabid animals for kicks, then "civilization" doesn't deserve to survive, anyway.

Past that, I don't have any easy answers. I know what *I* would do, but again, my view of humanity is always very grim even on a good day and I know most people would think it was "too far".

I've said this before and I'll say it again: I think everybody's "guilty", I don't believe in "Good Guys", and frankly, we've all overstayed our welcome on this rock. Some people would say Mutually Assured Destruction sounds like a horror movie, whereas I'd say it was a deserved and fitting end for ALL mankind.

But then, I'm not a very upbeat person. So please try and bear that in mind.

Voltron

09-15-2020, 08:49 PM

There's thinking the worst, and then there's insisting on the worst.

If there's no motive, it's near impossible to make the accusation stick.

Also, if you're arguing for self-extinction, it sounds like you're projecting your own desires onto the "super-villains". As a species, our sense of self-preservation is too strong to gather en masse and end things. At least, not a country of a billion strong all going along with the idea.

As for "civilization", China is one of the oldest kids on the block. Everyone has their own form of country bumpkin or backwards weirdo who doesn't fit into larger society. There's not a lot we can do about that.

Leo656

09-15-2020, 09:02 PM

You can spank 'em. But again, I am aware that is "mean". It's still arguably what should've been done a long time ago, "mean" or not.

It is interesting, though, that the virus is juuuust lethal enough (as in, basically just killing obese people or immuno-compromised people or the very old) to cause a pandemic lockdown to devastate the economy (what you-know-who could always point to as flourishing under his watch, previously) and forcibly taking jobs away from people, forcing them to rely on the government's teet and getting them used to that. Because all of this really seems to create very favorable conditions for one very vocal side of the country.

I'm not even suggesting something nefarious. I just find it very interesting.

It's very "interesting".

Those People want to be free to go wherever they want whenever they want, but YOU can't, because "You're killing the planet" every time you leave the house. So suddenly, you're not allowed to leave your house unless it's an emergency. They can even fine or arrest you. As always, The Ruling Class are exempt. They can even get their hair done! But not you.

Those People walk around without masks unfettered and even gather en masse if they feel like it. But YOU can't be allowed to or else you might unwittingly kill a bunch of people. Funny how that works.

Those People have been braying for months and years about creating a society where "If you don't want to work, you just plain don't have to" and they'll just pay you to sit at home. And when people ask how that could ever be feasible, Those People say, "Well it's the government's job to find a way to make that happen." And they'd talk about "What If" scenarios in which people had no CHOICE but to stay home, and wouldn't it be nice if the government just kept sending them free money? And then out of nowhere, right in the middle of the debate at its most heated, one of these "What If" scenarios magically comes to pass, and Those People all get to say "See? THIS is exactly what we were talking about!"

And let's not forget, a billion-dollar mask industry springs up overnight. And how they keep changing the mask rules. That one that worked just fine last week is useless now. You probably infected Grandma and didn't even know it; she seems perfectly fine, but you NEED to get this newer, better more expensive mask now, just to be safe.

ALL of this happens at once, and the timing of it compared to the timing of certain debates and discussions is... "convenient".

I strongly, strongly believe that there is NO such thing as coincidence.

Thus, the timing of all of these events happening at once and nudging things towards a path that Those People have been swearing for years that they'd get to happen no matter what, well... again, as you said, Andrew... it is very, very "interesting".

Especially since Their Guy Barry O. sold China those virus samples in the first place back when he was the guy in the Big Boss's Chair. "Allegedly". Whoops?

"Interesting" indeed.

It's not ALL about Those People and it's not ALL about China, but there's a lot of parallel things going on that are tangentially connected and it all seems to be in service of very specific means to an end for both parties. For China, it was about population control. In America, it was about establishing a society that a very specific segment of the Ruling Class thinks is "proper" and forcing it into being by any means necessary... all while blaming it on someone people already hate.

I think China started it, "accidentally" or otherwise, and Those People over here are merely capitalizing on the situation to finally push their agendas through. They've manipulated the situation to the point where opposing their ideas (which not even six months ago most people considered loony and unfeasible) now makes one the short-sighted lunatic. We went from "Those ideas will never work" to "Well, what CHOICE do we have but to get paid to sit at home?" in no time at all.

Again... if you don't believe in coincidence... and I absolutely do not... well, it's all very hard to ignore. And as Andrew said... very, VERY "interesting".

Voltron

09-15-2020, 09:27 PM

You can spank 'em. But again, I am aware that is "mean". It's still arguably what should've been done a long time ago, "mean" or not.

This isn't a very clear answer. I don't think violent action would go over very well in this case. The fallout would be horrendous.

Those People have been braying for months and years about creating a society where "If you don't want to work, you just plain don't have to" and they'll just pay you to sit at home. And when people ask how that could ever be feasible, Those People say, "Well it's the government's job to find a way to make that happen."

You either misunderstand the argument, or you're deliberately misinterpreting it.

First, if you don't want to work, you don't have to. There's plenty of people living on the street who can attest to that.

Second, if you're referring to welfare recipients, you're opening a very complex can of worms that requires some very, VERY nuanced deliberation.

Third, if you're referring to universal basic income, that's in response to the growing trend of automation. What happens when millions of workers are replaced by robots? It's already happened in Detroit. And that IS the government's problem, because the government's job is LITERALLY to see to the common welfare of the people of the United States. That's in the Constitution. "To provide for the general welfare".

Those People want to be free to go wherever they want whenever they want, but YOU can't, because "You're killing the planet" every time you leave the house. So suddenly, you're not allowed to leave your house unless it's an emergency. They can even fine or arrest you. As always, The Ruling Class are exempt. They can even get their hair done! But not you.

Those People walk around without masks unfettered and even gather en masse if they feel like it. But YOU can't be allowed to or else you might unwittingly kill a bunch of people. Funny how that works.

. . . The ruling class? Who exactly are you talking about? I mean, there's a political rally where masks aren't required. If you're talking about protesters, they're mostly wearing masks.

Masks are a pretty effective way to control the spread of COVID.

Also, if a place of business requires certain attire, that's their right and privilege. You can't enter most restaurants without a shoes and shirt. Now you can't without a mask.

On a similar note, If you want to reign in corporate power, why can't we tax them and use that to pay for UBI?

Everything I'm hearing boils down to "why can't everything go my way all the time?"

Well, because it can't. Life is unfair sometimes, and sometimes it's unfair to us. Sometimes the economy craps out. Sometimes your empire falls. Sometimes your job sucks. Sometimes your government is a steaming pile of garbage. Sometimes your car breaks down. Sometimes NFL players take a knee during the national anthem. Sometimes the cops shoot a guy in the back 7 times at point blank range.

My point is that if we're going to say that ruling powers are evil, then look at who current ruling powers are and be careful about your insinuations. If you're going to say that people need to toughen up and take hardship in stride, then why are we complaining about other people and not pushing forward ourselves, leading by example?

I'm all for stoicism, but stoicism entails not griping about other people.

Leo656

09-15-2020, 10:00 PM

Everything I'm hearing boils down to "why can't everything go my way all the time?"

Nobody's saying any of that.

Nobody's going to convince anyone of anything, so I'm just gonna make my feelings on the entire subject crystal clear and let that be the end of it before I bow out.

Here's the deal:

- A virus exists that kills people, but only some, and mostly people who weren't long for the world anyway.

- That sucks, but as you said, That's Life. "Life Is Unfair Sometimes".

- Shutting down the economy and putting millions of people out of work was not necessary, it was an incredible overreaction that's going to do more harm than good in the long run.

- We need to let things get back to normal, even if that means people die. People die every day. "That's Life. Life Is Unfair Sometimes."

- Precautions are fine, but the overkill is delaying the inevitable. We HAVE to put this "You can't go out or PEOPLE WILL DIE" stuff to bed sooner rather than later.

- People need to be allowed to work. And it shouldn't have to be "Amazon, Walmart, work-from-home or F*ck You". Let people who want to take the risk take the risk.

- "But if YOU take a risk, you might kill someone else!" Oh. Well.

- China started it, "Because Culture", but we can't hold them accountable because if we push too hard they'll push back. Awesome.

- Nothing about this situation is sustainable.

- People on The Left are manipulating the situation to force their agenda on people who not too long ago thought they were nuts. Twisting things to their own ends. And it's nonsense. The numbers are FAKE, and MOST people are Just Fine.
-------------

ALL of that is true, and people who disagree with any of it whatsoever simply can't be helped. Truth doesn't require Belief to exist. It simply has to be The Truth.

I'm glad that for people who get to keep their push-button jobs and either enjoy or have no problem living in fear, this situation is advantageous. For everyone else, it's a living death and it f*cking sucks. Millions of people losing their entire livelihood because something bad MIGHT happen to them or someone they know is nonsense. BUT, it's reality.

Have fun with it. Frankly, if I'm expected to wear a goddamn mask every time I go out for the rest of my life, and if I can't work anymore, and it's all because other people are afraid of dying, then just sign me up for f*cking Death. I'll take it over All This, gladly.

This ain't "living", and it ain't sustainable. It's a bad joke that's gotten way out of hand.

That's my beginning, middle, and end on the subject. Have a nice day, and enjoy a lifetime of inconvenience and financial ruin because some people get the sniffles and a few don't get better.

"That's Life. Life Is Unfair Sometimes."

Voltron

09-15-2020, 11:04 PM

Nobody's going to convince anyone of anything

You're right about not convincing me. I'm pretty stubborn.

so I'm just gonna make my feelings

Unfortunately, feelings don't always match up with the reality of the situation. That's going to happen a lot here.

- A virus exists that kills people, but only some, and mostly people who weren't long for the world anyway.

Then, arguably, what China did wasn't that bad. One could argue it was a net good, since we don't have to pay social security or medical expenses for people who were lingering, anyway.

. . . Thanks, China?

- That sucks, but as you said, That's Life. "Life Is Unfair Sometimes".

It is. But we can do things to rectify those inequities. That' more or less the plot of human civilization.

- Shutting down the economy and putting millions of people out of work was not necessary, it was an incredible overreaction that's going to do more harm than good in the long run.

It was necessary in order to spare us a larger economic meltdown later in the game. If a quick spreading disease manages to take out a sizable portion of the workforce, the economy is going to collapse anyway.

Couple this with the high risk of medical workers becoming infected and unable to render treatment to people who need it, and that's a recipe for disaster.

Shutting down and maintaining social distance has been our go-to strategy for decades, if not centuries. In lieu of that, we could all wash our hands, wear masks, and generally look out for each other. However, we all see what happens when half the population are asked to pitch in.

- We need to let things get back to normal, even if that means people die. People die every day. "That's Life. Life Is Unfair Sometimes."

Again, this absolves China of any responsibility. In fact, this outlook absolves anyone of any responsibility for any life lost due to malice or negligence.

Did I hit your dog with my car? Get over it. Dogs only live for a decade, at best, and no one but you liked it anyway. What do dogs even provide?

Dismissing the feelings of people is never a good way to calm a situation. I'll show this through example later. Keep your eyes open for when I turn my assholishness up to 11 and tell you this is all YOUR fault.

- Precautions are fine, but the overkill is delaying the inevitable. We HAVE to put this "You can't go out or PEOPLE WILL DIE" stuff to bed sooner rather than later.

I've explained this before: limiting exposure mitigates a greater disaster down the line. It's not that everyone is going to die. It's that we don't have the infrastructure to handle the influx of new infections. You'd be none-too-happy if you go into cardiac arrest but can't find a bed at a hospital because the local frat had a COVID party and they're all laid up in the local ER.

- People need to be allowed to work. And it shouldn't have to be "Amazon, Walmart, work-from-home or F*ck You". Let people who want to take the risk take the risk.

1. No, they don't. Because they're all going to die anyway. That's how nihilism works. In fact, why not just kill them? They're unnecessary burdens on society. That's sarcasm, by the way. Please don't start murdering people.

2. Why haven't you taken the risk? We talked about this awhile back, where a lot of members of the board said they'd be billionaires if they just worked at it.

I submit that that's not the case. Why? It's not because you're lazy. It's because. . .

3. The mega-corporations make it so that we can't really start a business. What business can you start that isn't being done better, cheaper, and faster than what's already out there?

If I manage to create a new social media company or an online delivery service, Facebook, Google, and Amazon have the financial power and resources to either buy me out or undercut me.

There's a chance someone breaks away and manages to create a new, large business. . . but that's a VERY small chance.

Also, you seemed really upset about the billion-dollar mask business sprouting up over-night. That's one of those risks hitting the outside chance, but I get the sense you aren't happy about it.

- "But if YOU take a risk, you might kill someone else!" Oh. Well.

Yeah. Yeah, you could. It's like drunk driving. You might not kill someone on the way, but you could. If you're wandering around with a communicable disease knowing full well the dangers, are you not responsible for it?

- China started it, "Because Culture", but we can't hold them accountable because if we push too hard they'll push back. Awesome.

But as you already pointed out, there's really no problem with the virus to begin with. You actually say this again later on.

- Nothing about this situation is sustainable.

No. But living in plague isn't our natural state, either, so it's not meant to BE sustainable.

- People on The Left are manipulating the situation to force their agenda on people who not too long ago thought they were nuts. Twisting things to their own ends. And it's nonsense.

Here you're saying it isn't a problem anymore. If so, then why be so mad at people eating bat souffle?

The numbers are FAKE, and MOST people are Just Fine.

You have to make up your mind. Either China did this and needs to be held accountable, or the numbers are fake and nothing is happening. You can't have it both ways.
-------------

ALL of that is true

By definition, it can't be. You've stated scenarios that are mutually exclusive.

, and people who disagree with any of it whatsoever simply can't be helped.

Trust me, I know the frustration.

Truth doesn't require Belief to exist.

No, but you stated that these were your "feelings" on the matter. That's different from truth.

It simply has to be The Truth.

No, it doesn't.

I'm glad that for people who get to keep their push-button jobs and either enjoy or have no problem living in fear, this situation is advantageous. For everyone else,

I got to keep my job. It's great. I experienced literally no negative effects from this at all. I'm not making that up, either. My company expanded and got new customers. We're doing better NOW than at the beginning of this whole mess.

But maybe that's because I'm smart. Maybe I work harder than you. Maybe I wanted it more. Maybe I'm just plain better than you and God is showing that by making me richer and more comfortable. Or I did it through my own sweat.

I'm joking. But that's what I mean about deciding other people are automatically at fault when misfortune befalls them. We're not going to move forward while we're too busy pointing fingers at the person next to us.

it's a living death and it f*cking sucks.

Sounds like you're just lingering. Why not go out and take that risk? Be the next Amazon! Be the next Walmart! The only thing in your way is you.

Millions of people losing their entire livelihood because something bad MIGHT happen to them or someone they know is nonsense. BUT, it's reality.

Yeah, but what were those people actually producing? I mean, let's be realistic. We kept the essential workers. If you got laid off, you're not really all that important, are you?

Have fun with it. Frankly, if I'm expected to wear a goddamn mask every time I go out for the rest of my life, and if I can't work anymore, and it's all because other people are afraid of dying, then just sign me up for f*cking Death. I'll take it over All This, gladly.

This is actually in line with what you've been saying. If you're all for human extinction, it's appropriate to lead by example.

This ain't "living", and it ain't sustainable. It's a bad joke that's gotten way out of hand.

I've been saying this whole economic model isn't sustainable. We can change it, but that's out of the question.

That's my beginning, middle, and end on the subject. Have a nice day, and enjoy a lifetime of inconvenience and financial ruin because some people get the sniffles and a few don't get better.

I already told you that I'm not. I still have my job. I never lost it. I have a ton of skills that are very marketable, and I could pick a few more up while I'm sitting on my ass. At the very least, I could jump on Fiverr and write some furry porn for JarrahWhite and make a few bucks off that.

"That's Life. Life Is Unfair Sometimes."

If you're angry, I understand. But anger clouds reason. That's why our news cycle pumps out things like the Oscar diversity list. We're all looking at that while Jeff Bezos just got billions of dollars richer. . . but you don't seem too upset about a guy who makes more in a month than all of us combined over the course of several life times.

But maybe that's because he's way better than us, and we deserve to be ruled by god-kings. I dunno.

Allsparrow

09-16-2020, 03:44 AM

I’ve noticed a strong pull to the right in this forum. There’s also a lot of finger pointing going on. I’m wondering if anybody here has had direct experience with COVID-19? Anybody here get sick? Anyone here get COVID and still think it’s a bio weapon against Trump, or that it’s just a flu?

Andrew NDB

09-16-2020, 04:50 AM

Anybody here get sick?

Not that has ever been posted about here. Presumably no.

Anyone here get COVID and still think it’s a bio weapon against Trump, or that it’s just a flu?

I'm guessing no. Personally, I only know of one guy in my entire circle of friends, both online and in person to get it and die of it. The husband of an old friend. Not even my friend, really, but he was a good guy. He was a little older than me at 41. Also, about 400 pounds with asthma. The regular flu probably could have done him in just the same, honestly. Don't know of anyone else. Or does my wife... and she works in healthcare. And come to think of it, beyond that I only know of one other person to get it that is even on my FB feed (and I have 1,100+ "friends" on it) to get it, and I'm not even certain I believe her because she's the type to wake up every day and post 5 times a day about how horrible Trump is and how much we need to fear the virus even before she "got" it. In the interest of fairness, fine, let's count her. Though here I am in Seattle, where reportedly hundreds are dropping dead like flies everyday.

Again, I'm not the conspiracy theory type, but I do think the whole COVID thing is being harnessed by the left to... if not thwart Trump (though I'm sure it is a more than welcome side effect for them), then go for the throat after capitalism at large. Encourage and foster fear, encourage people to tattle tale on neighbors, "stay home and stay safe" so the existing system implodes on itself and they can replace it with their own. Do I think, like, Pelosi and Schumer paid some lab to make a virus to this end? No, not at all. But a mountain is being made of a mole hill to their benefit, for sure.

I'm not afraid of the virus. Also, I don't have any grandma, nor do I hang out with or go around hugging grandmas. You can't force people to fear, as much as you might want to. Also, that's incredibly unhealthy. Either to want that or to do that.

What should we do, as a compromise, as a country? I think it's fairly simple. Reopen EVERYTHING. No restrictions. Encourage tourism again. The movie theaters. Give companies incentive packages to do so to up the daily cleaning and hygiene factor. Masks? Fine, mandatory. For a while, but let's agree on an end date. You're old or at high risk but were previously in the workforce? Fine, stay home if you want and we can look at additional unemployment or other benefits for you. Also: stay away from people you think might be infected. Nobody cares more about your personal well being than YOU.

Done. The rest of us go back to work.

Also the billion+ dollar mask industry (and I'm assuming hand sanitizer goes hand in hand with this, no pun intended) that's sprouted? I'm sure that's wonderful for the people looking to make $12 an hour making masks in a plant. The rest of us need our real jobs back.

Allsparrow

09-16-2020, 05:18 AM

What do you do for a living?

Andrew NDB

09-16-2020, 05:26 AM

What do you do for a living?

Hotel sales manager. I'm the guy you'd speak to and meet if you'd like, want to book a wedding or reunion or business meeting in one of our hotel meeting rooms and I draw up your contract and see that all of your catering needs are met. And... guess what isn't happening at all now, because they're being scared away? Meetings. And catering.

Allsparrow

09-16-2020, 05:30 AM

Wildcat

09-16-2020, 05:42 AM

A relative of an inlaw that passed away was said to have it and I think my the grandmother of my neighbors had it who also passed away. They probably had other health problems and made it worse. Like you hear it causes complications.

Just because many have not gotten something does not mean anything. Sometimes you can go a long time without getting the flu or a cold. Theyre still out there and contagious.

In response to the topic...if another pandemic came around it would depend on what kind of sickness it caused. Not that I think it will become a regular occurance. Last time was 1918 I guess. Other stuff like swine flu were contained.

I mentioned I hate politics and this happening in an election year makes it just a little worse. Ive always hated those stupid attack ads they do all the time. Theyre so cartoonishly exaggerated. So of course they find anyway to make it about the virus in these things. Does not even matter. It could have been any world event.

Aliens could have abducted people and they would have been like...(Blank) played Space Invaders growing up and were last seen watching Mars Attacks. Can we really trust them to protect us from extraterrestrials? Im (Blank) and I approve this message...Complete nonsense.

Ive actually been able to tell when one is being beamed into something Im watching because the screen glitches. I turn off the satellite, not the tv, to break the signal and a totally different commercial is playing when I turn it on.

In general though I stopped reading up on things but still hear the daily news. If it was man made I can see it accidently getting loose and spreading but I do not think it was done on purpose to wipeout people like a super villian.

I think it SHOULD be taken seriously though. Not much is known about it long term yet and theres no vaccine. Its scary that just like in movies theres always some people that do not and think they know better. Im sad to see those movies were an accurate representation.

Nobody is even asking that much. Keep your distance, practice cleanliness and and cover your mouth/nose. Honestly protesting masks makes me mad. Its like protesting seatbelts. Its such an easy precaution to take and can help agaisnt other germs. Its just a mask. Not a whole hazard suit.

Andrew NDB

09-16-2020, 05:43 AM

So your job depends on people getting together in large groups, and you’re not afraid of getting sick. I can see how you’d be fed up. Maybe you could try advertising to People who’ve had COVID? Social gatherings for people who have the anti-bodies?

I can't tell if you're being snarky or not. I'm going to assume you're not.

For that, I'd need to actually be employed and doing stuff for my employer. I'm not. Marketing was part of my job as well, it's true. Though I think the bigger and better answer to this would be to come out and admit "we gotta get back to business... but with added precautions! Don't worry, we're taking it seriously!" With commercials of, like, housekeepers wiping down everything and buffets where people are being served individually by staff with masks, etc.. Maybe some nice music. :)

But... hotels need to actually be allowed to do that. Right now they can't. Maybe tiny meetings, which wouldn't justify any salaries for sure. Not quite up on the latest "phase" business here but I know it's not good.

Allsparrow

09-16-2020, 05:49 AM

I’m not being snarky. Many people are obviously feeling the way you do, getting anxious, looking to have a place to go. They say antibodies give you 3 months immunity.

Andrew NDB

09-16-2020, 06:12 AM

Nobody is even asking that much. Keep your distance, practice cleanliness and and cover your mouth/nose. Honestly protesting masks makes me mad.

They ARE asking a lot, obviously. People are losing their livelihoods and jobs and businesses and shops because of a bug ridiculously less lethal to young people than Swine flu.

Masks. Eh. I mean, I'm OK with it if it makes people happy in certain circumstances. What I don't like is the silly idea that if they'd been forced months beforehand, millions would still be with us. Bullsh**. If these numbers were true at all, the bulk of these were nursing homes where this spread like wildfire.

I’m not being snarky. Many people are obviously feeling the way you do, getting anxious, looking to have a place to go. They say antibodies give you 3 months immunity.

Fair enough, I just feel a bit on the defense with how some cats come at me on boards. Now, I've been up on that kind of stuff. My conclusions? They basically know nothing and the data showing people getting reinfected seems to always end up being flawed or inconclusive. Like "maybe the virus wasn't actually all the way out yet... but we're going to look at it as a possible reinfection," etc..

The data on the mostly successful vaccine trials (disclaimer: there may NEVER be a vaccine and can we please stop assuming there will be) suggests it doesn't mutate much or at all and is going to be zappable like anything else.

Wildcat

09-16-2020, 06:48 AM

They ARE asking a lot, obviously. People are losing their livelihoods and jobs and businesses and shops because of a bug ridiculously less lethal to young people than Swine flu.

Masks. Eh. I mean, I'm OK with it if it makes people happy in certain circumstances. What I don't like is the silly idea that if they'd been forced months beforehand, millions would still be with us.I understand businesses are really struggling. I see why some want to reopen but Im sorry I really have to disagree with going back 100% with zero restrictions. That is waaaaaay too soon. It seems long but this just started in the spring. We are barely entering fall.

Theaters are like the least important. If they went on as usual the movies would underperform by default. Why should studios purposely hinder their movies performance? They know many people will still stay home. Being open does not automatically make sales.

Ya the masks are not a guarantee. Its a precaution. Like seatbelts. Thats why I used that example. The fact some are totally against masks when it’s such a simple precaution and at the very least protects from other airborne germs is ridiculous to me. Are they gonna protest tissues next?

Im surprised you are not afraid of it. It seems like older people are more vulnerable but it can negatively affect anyone. You do not know til you have it. Some people have appeared on tv who are not that old have gotten really sick. Some say they had side effects even after they recovered. Like I said its long term effects are unknown. Its all still very new.

Andrew NDB

09-16-2020, 07:06 AM

Wildcat

09-16-2020, 07:40 AM

I'm neither fat or super old. Also, no asthma. So no, not afraid of it. I'd way rather have it now than in 10 years if it's still floating around as this silent political killer. I'd be fine. I'm thin and fit and work out everyday (also take my vitamins per Hulk Hogan) and am under 40.Im neither of those things either but ok.

You keep bringing up Swine Flu though. I did a quick check and the total deaths were around 500,000 plus. The Coronavirus total is getting close 1 million. Ya it affected more young people than older but I do not see why this matters. People are still dying. I really do not understand why you keep bringing it up.

And if the arts (theaters, etc.) aren't protected in some way... what are we even doing? Why even bother, then?What do you mean protected? Nothing wrong with delaying things so they get a better chance at performing well. Plus it could help in quality too by not rushing or trying to work around quarantines if something is not done yet.

Leo656

09-16-2020, 11:26 AM

Voltron: You're gonna pick and twist much of whatever I say and I accept that, therefore I'm not going to drag it out further. There's nuance in many of my points that you either fail to recognize or willfully ignore and therefore I'm not going to continue the long, drawn-out back and forth about it. There's no point in typing words that aren't going to be read OR will be misunderstood either by accident or on purpose.

Put simply, and for the record once and for all, though, here's what I sincerely believe happened:

- China's been trying to create a "manageable plague" for a long time and something slipped through the cracks. You asked "Why bother?" at one point; my theory is, so they can stop literally murdering people in public to keep their population under control and start pretending to be "Nice Guys" instead, while letting their super-bug do the hard and dirty work for them. This HAS to be true, otherwise, why would they spend so much time and money experimenting with biological weapons and super-germs as they do? There has to be an Endgame or else it's all just a sick hobby.

- I don't think that what got out was a completed project nor was it probably supposed to get out. Which would explain why it doesn't seem to be very bad; it likely was a prototype, bad enough to do some damage but not to its full potential. Again, you stated that "If it were all by design then it would be a lot more potent" and thus my theory is invalid, but that's oversimplifying and ignoring the fact that multiple things can be true at once. They absolutely could have designed this thing BUT it absolutely could have gotten out by accident in an unfinished state. Get it?

- Even in an unfinished state, they more than likely would have something, if not a vaccine then SOME kind of "control" in place to protect not only the lab workers but any government officials from contracting it, because that's only common sense.

Frankly, without getting too deep into it, I believe and always have that there are a LOT of "cures" and vaccines for all kinds of things that You or I will never be privy to, because they're kept under lock and key for "The Important People" like heads of state and so on. But you don't dabble in designer viruses without having some sort of control in place, that's stupid. That's why I believe China has something to counter this and are waiting for a chance to sell it back to us.

- Just because I believe the numbers are completely exaggerated doesn't mean I think nobody's dying. I don't know a single person personally who's even gotten a sniffle since this ordeal started, but it's NOT an all-or-nothing game. The virus can be real AND lethal to some (but not most/all) AND the numbers can all be completely made up to serve a Very Specific Agenda (as Andrew posits).

- The fact that the numbers (and the entire situation) is a lot more under control in countries where there's not an extremely cutthroat election going on this year isn't lost on me, and shouldn't be lost on anyone. "They take it more seriously Over There, THAT's why the numbers are so low!" Oh, lord, to be young and naive again. I live in one of the most densely-populated states in the Northeast, 3 out of 10 people walk around with no masks on and yet nobody's gotten sick or knows anyone who has. MOST people here are in agreement that people Up Top are stirring the pot so they can get back the White House in November. We may think differently IF what the lying liars who lie on the TV news said anything that was matching up to what we see with our own eyes, BUT, that hasn't been the case. Not a sniffle in 6 months, whether people comply or don't comply. Hmmmmmmm......

So again, we've debated long and hard and I don't want to do that, I'm simply making what *I* think is going on perfectly clear and you can believe it or don't, but I find my version of events more based in reality. Hopefully I've detailed and better-explained the nuances which you missed before.

There is NO reason that China couldn't have been playing with germs, something bad (but not TOO bad) leaked out, and now the Democrats are using the situation to their advantage. That's my A-B-C theory and there's nothing about it that's hard to believe whatsoever. If people don't want to believe it, well... that's fine, so long as they don't wag fingers and scold, because Their Version of "the truth" doesn't make any more OR less sense than what I think happened.

Love you brother, glad you have a job.

OH, that reminds me, before I forget and since you asked: I'd love to "Take the risk" and go back to work. But here's the thing: I only have a very narrow set of marketable skills AND I live in a suburban area where most places are completely shut down, still. I still have a few months' worth of unemployment left to coast on, and in the meantime nothing around here is going to pay me more than what I'll make at home. In the end, I MIGHT have no choice but to swallow my pride and mop floors at f*cking Walmart, but in the meantime I have no inclination to do that because frankly, I'm too old and have worked too hard for too long to go back to Square One dipsh*t work that any high school dropout can do. If that's where I was gonna end up I wouldn't have busted my ass to get where I was before all this happened. If I end up having no choice, that's another conversation for another time, but I still have time left to think about it. Meanwhile, no gyms are open around here for an hour in any direction, and even if there were, Personal Training is a dead industry now, I doubt I'll ever be able to go back to doing what I was, which sucks because I was great at it. But nobody's got the money and people are scared to be around people. My ex-boss has even said that he has no inclination to try and open a new gym for at least a year, because he's not of the mind nor temperament to enforce mask rules and follow people around with spray bottles when everyone in NJ knows that these excessive precuationary measures are all for show any damn way. He says he MIGHT open up another gym in a year or so once this farce is done away with, IF it is, but in the meantime it's too much of a hassle. He's a millionaire, he'll be fine.

But yeah, I personally have few/no options in the immediate. Like I've said many times, "It sucks, but in all the hubbub I forgot to go to law school." So yeah, people like me, who are the majority, are pretty well and truly f*cked by this scenario.

We'll see what happens. I'm talking to a few people. Something might pop, or not. We'll see.

I'm guessing no. Personally, I only know of one guy in my entire circle of friends, both online and in person to get it and die of it. The husband of an old friend. Not even my friend, really, but he was a good guy. He was a little older than me at 41. Also, about 400 pounds with asthma. The regular flu probably could have done him in just the same, honestly. Don't know of anyone else. Or does my wife... and she works in healthcare. And come to think of it, beyond that I only know of one other person to get it that is even on my FB feed (and I have 1,100+ "friends" on it) to get it, and I'm not even certain I believe her because she's the type to wake up every day and post 5 times a day about how horrible Trump is and how much we need to fear the virus even before she "got" it. In the interest of fairness, fine, let's count her. Though here I am in Seattle, where reportedly hundreds are dropping dead like flies everyday.

Again, I'm not the conspiracy theory type, but I do think the whole COVID thing is being harnessed by the left to... if not thwart Trump (though I'm sure it is a more than welcome side effect for them), then go for the throat after capitalism at large. Encourage and foster fear, encourage people to tattle tale on neighbors, "stay home and stay safe" so the existing system implodes on itself and they can replace it with their own. Do I think, like, Pelosi and Schumer paid some lab to make a virus to this end? No, not at all. But a mountain is being made of a mole hill to their benefit, for sure.

I'm not afraid of the virus. Also, I don't have any grandma, nor do I hang out with or go around hugging grandmas. You can't force people to fear, as much as you might want to. Also, that's incredibly unhealthy. Either to want that or to do that.

What should we do, as a compromise, as a country? I think it's fairly simple. Reopen EVERYTHING. No restrictions. Encourage tourism again. The movie theaters. Give companies incentive packages to do so to up the daily cleaning and hygiene factor. Masks? Fine, mandatory. For a while, but let's agree on an end date. You're old or at high risk but were previously in the workforce? Fine, stay home if you want and we can look at additional unemployment or other benefits for you. Also: stay away from people you think might be infected. Nobody cares more about your personal well being than YOU.

Done. The rest of us go back to work.

Also the billion+ dollar mask industry (and I'm assuming hand sanitizer goes hand in hand with this, no pun intended) that's sprouted? I'm sure that's wonderful for the people looking to make $12 an hour making masks in a plant. The rest of us need our real jobs back.

All the bold, I STRONGLY agree with. The Left have been waiting and salivating for a scenario Just Like This so they can cram all their shortsighted U.B.I. nonsense through. I've said all of that before. And when you control the mainstream media as they do, well... 200 people dying from a virus can be 2,000 or even two million pretty damn fast, and suddenly everybody HAS to take you seriously.

You banged the nail. Pelosi, etc. didn't create the situation but they're absolutely taking advantage of it. You'll NEVER convince me otherwise.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

09-16-2020, 11:39 AM

I actually lost a business associate to COVID-19 earlier this year. And I had a sibling who works in the ICU of a major hospital in town come down with (and recover from) COVID.

She's my go-to source on "is this trumped up or something to actually worry about?" "Are masks and social distancing necessary?" "What about closing down businesses?" "Should I avoid you for 2 weeks now?"

I don't care to get into this whole argument, just throwing that out there. I suggest people do the same. Find a personal trusted source who knows their medical $hit and ask them your questions.

Frankly, without getting too deep into it, I believe and always have that there are a LOT of "cures" and vaccines for all kinds of things that You or I will never be privy to, because they're kept under lock and key for "The Important People" like heads of state and so on. But you don't dabble in designer viruses without having some sort of control in place, that's stupid. That's why I believe China has something to counter this and are waiting for a chance to sell it back to us.

That reminds me, I need to ask my sis about that... I've suspected the same regarding some illnesses. Curious what someone who knows their medical $hit thinks.

Leo656

09-16-2020, 11:41 AM

As for "Do I know anyone who got it", no, not even on FB, at least not among anyone I speak to regularly (although a few claim their relatives had it).

Closest it's gotten to me was, my mother-in-law said that her 90-something aunt had gotten it and was perfectly fine in a few days with no lingering ill-effects. Which does nothing to make me trust the official narrative any more than I do (or don't, as it were).

Again, the reason SOME people are non-compliant and/or don't take this situation at face value, is because what we SEE with our own eyes is the exact opposite of what MSNBC is telling us what's going on. Maddow and Fauci can tell me that the sky is pink, and they can even throw numbers at me to "prove" it, but meanwhile, I look out my window and the sky is blue. I'm gonna take these people seriously? Why? Their Words are not My Reality, so until that changes, giant shakers of salt for every single thing they say. They're the ones benefiting (and in some cases profiting) from this situation, why should I trust them?

As for the bit about making masks in a factory for $12 an hour, Andrew, I completely feel you on that. I wasn't getting rich at my old job because I wasn't working in 8-hour shifts, BUT my commission rate was around $30-40 an hour. I am NEVER going to make that again, thanks to this bullsh*t. I could make more in three hours than the guy mopping the floor at Walmart makes in an entire goddamn day AND I could make my own schedule, more or less. Kiss it goodbye, all gone, never coming back. All because SOME people MIGHT die.

Meanwhile, I lost a good job once, long time ago. Got pneumonia, doctor said I needed a week off. Went back to work, the owner said I should quit. Didn't like that I was out sick for a week. Told me he couldn't fire me for that BUT if I stayed he would make sure to invent a reason to fire me. I reminded him that legally, I could call out sick with a note, especially for something as severe as pneumonia.

Y'know what he told me? "Note or no note, people can't stay home and just decide they don't feel like going to work because you've got a stuffy nose. So you got pneumonia. 'Oh, you could've died.' SO WHAT? People die every day, that's the risk we all take whenever we leave the house. All you told me by staying home all week was, you didn't need this job badly enough to deserve it."

So, I quit. And while I still feel that he was an asshole in that situation, fundamentally, he's right. We can't lock ourselves up and get paid to stay at home because we're scared something bad MIGHT happen.

And frankly, if *I* was expected to risk my own life by going to work even though I could've gotten sick and keeled over dead - and believe me, this wasn't the last time I was in that situation - then everyone else has to, too. It's only fair. If I had a nickel for every time at ANY job I was told, "Sick or not, get your ass to work or else!" I could buy a car with those nickels.

But oh, NOW suddenly it's all the opposite. When it was ME, I was expected to go in and earn my right to breathe whether I was coughing up blood or not because "That's The Way Sh*t Works". NOW, people aren't even sick BUT they might get sick so NOBODY can go to work.

It's nonsense.

The only thing whatsoever that makes me believe in a God, is that SOMEONE has spent the last 38 years manipulating events for the sole purpose of screwing with Me and Me Alone. Nothing else makes any sense.

oldmanwinters

09-16-2020, 11:54 AM

I'm not stirring the pot. I'm genuinely curious. The next time there's a COVID-caliber virus... what is going to happen? The same stuff as this time? Shut everything down, stay home, "mask up" and so on for untold months or what?

What do you see happening? Because this will happen again. Like, it didn't happen with Swine Flu (which was actually killing tons of young people), but it happened with this.

Honestly, that was the first thing that came to my mind when all the schools and sports leagues started cancelling things back in March. Once you do it once, people are gonna expect you to do it the next time. I don't personally believe this was a brilliantly orchestrated political-economic conspiracy, but there are will always be people who won't let a crisis go to waste in order to further their own agendas.

Leo656

09-16-2020, 12:02 PM

Honestly, that was the first thing that came to my mind when all the schools and sports leagues started cancelling things back in March. Once you do it once, people are gonna expect you to do it the next time.

I fear this as well. That this is going to be standard practice from now on.

Given that it's Fall, I expect a huge panic as soon as people start coughing for all the usual reasons, only this time "We can't take any chances!" so then Boom, back to lockdowns and hoarding toilet paper.

And then it's gonna happen again EVERY time there's even the slightest hint of something bad happening. Where does it end? It doesn't.

And if this is going to be our collective reaction to every passing cloud, then screw it, might as well just tap out and give up, and drop any pretense of things ever "getting better". They can't, if we're just gonna lock the doors and hide under the bed from every shadow.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

09-16-2020, 12:31 PM

I fear this as well. That this is going to be standard practice from now on.

Once there is a precedent, it is NEVER walked back.

Otherwise, whether you believe this came from China as a weaponized plague or you believe it's just nature taking its merry course through human incompetence, the people in charge have to admit they were wrong and COVID-19 didn't warrant such a huge response.

That's never going to happen, right or wrong. So this is the new flu season for everyone in America, forever.

sdp

09-16-2020, 12:34 PM

It's going to be better but at the same time a huge mess because countries will continue to try to save face, ignore what's happening to avoid showing how incompetent they are and people will show how dumb they are by being anti-vaxxers or saying how the gov wants to control them with fear and that they won't wear facemasks because their ignorant minds know better.

Leo656

09-16-2020, 12:52 PM

If masks work so well, then the fearful and symptomatic can continue to wear them and people who aren't sick or afraid can opt out. Very simple. It changes day-by-day as to whether or not they do much at all, anyway, depending on who you listen to. Even people who completely refuse to wear masks often aren't getting sick, which only causes them to further dig in.

I'm past the point of caring if I die from it. I don't WANT to, but I'll take it over the alternative if "the alternative" is to continue as we've been for the last 6 months.

There's no point in being incredibly good-looking if you're forced to cover it up. Like I said: Living Death.

I'm sure this has all been a great field-leveler for ugly people, but some of us actually like to show face. Plus, it's damn near impossible to have a conversation with one of them on. People can't hear me and I'm already a quarter deaf so to hear them I have to get so close that I'm beyond "social distance boundaries" anyway. Once you're a foot away from someone the mask is more a symbolic measure than anything.

I "comply", but under protest. And I'm absolutely not going to play along forever, that's just the way it is.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

09-16-2020, 12:57 PM

There's no point in being incredibly good-looking if you're forced to cover it up...

I'm sure this has all been a great field-leveler for ugly people, but some of us actually like to show face.

I know, right? How are people supposed to enjoy the sight of my manly beard when it's hidden behind a cotton mask?

And have you tried wearing glasses with a fvcking mask? $hit sucks. :tlol:

Plus, it's damn near impossible to have a conversation with one of them on. People can't hear me and I'm already a quarter deaf so to hear them I have to get so close that I'm beyond "social distance boundaries" anyway.

Brother, don't get me started. Lost a lot of hearing in my left ear from driving with the windows down for a year (no A/C in the car)... can't hear for $hit when everything's muffled like Bane in The Dark Knight Rises.

https://i.gifer.com/3csM.gif

Leo656

09-16-2020, 01:21 PM

Sunglasses, yeah, that's bad enough. Sh*t fogs up immediately.

Not to mention being generally phlegmy-coughy as a natural state of life, wearing a mask for any period of time is a nigh-unbearable aggravation. I just have to remove it every few minutes to spit, anyway.

I put up with it. For Now. But this is already long enough. Workers at the flea market - which is mobbed every weekend - generally stopped wearing them weeks ago and things seem A-OK. Thousands of people there every weekend and no outbreaks, masks or no masks. Some people sure wear them, sure, but only about 6 or 7 out of every 10. And most of the vendors don't. Ask them how they feel, they'll tell you: "It's all bullsh*t, I'm over it."

Time to stop putting condoms on to masturbate and get back to practical living. The worst is over and it's never going away completely, so really, we've done all we can do. Time to let the chips fall where they may.

Sumac

09-16-2020, 01:30 PM

Caught up on this thread. My thoughts about the virus: it was probably created in laboratory and accidentally ventured outside with some hapless idiot scientist or an animal.

After suffering economic damage, China decided intentionally to let virus get outside, so it could cause damage to the rest of the world, to keep status quo and made situation in the West even more messy. Having World Health Organization in their pocket allowed them to achieve their goal, and considering **** which going on in US, they might as well consider this a resounding success, so prepare for a new "accidental" viruses coming from China, I suppose.

Allsparrow

09-16-2020, 02:04 PM

A friend of mine got it. It was no big deal for the first two weeks. They were chatting with us over facetime, and we were kind of laughing it off. She had a stroke last week, 2 weeks after she had been done with quarantine. Hard to know what to make of it.

ABrown

09-16-2020, 02:11 PM

I guess we'll find out in about four years.

IMJ

09-16-2020, 04:29 PM

There is actually a bigger debate here that everyone is disregarding. Maybe it's because it falls outside a domain of understanding, or maybe because some people think it's "pie in the sky thinking". But there should be a rallying cry for research into broad spectrum viral cures - I've mentioned this before.

Go read about DRACO. Seriously - go read the evidence for it and then even read the stuff from the smart people who say it may not be viable. And even after looking at both perspectives, you'll see that the next virus wouldn't be a problem probably at all as soon as we have broad spectrum viral suppressants that change the caliber of illness the way that anti-biotics changed bacterial illness.

But seriously, no one is talking about this. Maybe because there are a lot of people plodding through life out there who don't know the difference between bacterial sickness and viral sickness. And it's ridiculous because the conversation about it so be so publicly large and so publicly concerned that it turns government attention to broad spectrum viral cures.

Go read about DRACO. It will change the shape of this thread's content completely.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

09-16-2020, 04:31 PM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DRACO

IMJ

09-16-2020, 04:57 PM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DRACO

Yeah I'd say that's a good synopsis covering the bigger story over the years. There's a lot of stuff out there about how it works and so on - absolutely brilliant.

8)

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

09-16-2020, 05:02 PM

Yeah I'd say that's a good synopsis covering the bigger story over the years. There's a lot of stuff out there about how it works and so on - absolutely brilliant.

8)

I was surprised to see how little Wikipedia had on it, but it at least brought me up to speed for a quick "huh, okay, got it." :tlol:

IMJ

09-16-2020, 05:20 PM

I was surprised to see how little Wikipedia had on it, but it at least brought me up to speed for a quick "huh, okay, got it." :tlol:

Check out some of the interviews with the guy who invented it. Everyone here should. I'm not saying that it's a sure fire win, but it's really, really odd that with it's success rate and foundational stability the government isn't deeply behind this. But hey - there's less money in actually curing viruses than there is in treating them.

But see, that's not how smart people are supposed to think. Smart people are supposed to realize that you solve a problem for the greater good and it won't put you out of business because the next problem will arise to be solved.

But people don't think that way.

Andrew NDB

09-16-2020, 08:29 PM

And then it's gonna happen again EVERY time there's even the slightest hint of something bad happening. Where does it end? It doesn't.

And my thing, as I've said elsewhere, is that we tried it their way. At the start, the whole "stay safe/stay home" quarantine was touted as, "only for a month or two, to stop the curve"... well it's been 6 now. Time's up, back to work now. If you think "we need to wait for a vaccine!" then you're both a coward and a moron.

If the concern was truly "there hypothetically isn't enough beds and respirators to take everyone sick at once!" well, if the numbers are real numbers they're throwing out there everyday then we've already put a big dent in that.

I actually overheard someone at a gas station complaining, aghast to her friend that she saw someone driving with their top down. "During a pandemic! Can you believe it??"

Allsparrow

09-16-2020, 09:47 PM

A study from July was showing that Covid stays pretty stable in the air for long periods of time. They measure the virus at different time spans, a few minutes, one hour, 3hours, and continued up to 16hours, which is where they stopped, because the decay rate of the virus was minimal, so they didn't continue to test further. I take that to mean it can live in the air for long periods of time. I can see how some people might freak out, and wonder why anyone is taking chances. https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/9/20-1806_article

Andrew NDB

09-16-2020, 09:51 PM

Yes, yes, and the pu$$y graphs trying to scare people as to how runners' "wake" as they're running can float around in a trail, carrying the virus to people around them. But nobody is getting sick like that. People are generally getting sick by up close, long-term contact with people who are infected.

IMJ

09-16-2020, 09:54 PM

I went in on the Kickstarter on that awesome UV filtering mask. I swear to God those guys beat me to the punch - a buddy and I were saying that there should be UV face masks earlier in the year.

Anyway, the whole face covering thing is a bit of a joke for a myriad of reasons - proper use, proper material, lulled into a sense of security, etc. But a built in UV sanitizing filter? That is effective science there, baby!

Allsparrow

09-16-2020, 10:46 PM

We bought N95’s early on. Cloth masks don’t do much, if it’s just the virus alone, but it will stop virus laden sputum. The aerosolized stuff, you need more than basic cloth.

IMJ

09-16-2020, 11:36 PM

We bought N95’s early on. Cloth masks don’t do much, if it’s just the virus alone, but it will stop virus laden sputum. The aerosolized stuff, you need more than basic cloth.

Yup. You've gotta check out the UV mask, man. It's truly awesome and sterilizes both coming in and exhaling.

Allsparrow

09-17-2020, 12:30 AM

Yup. You've gotta check out the UV mask, man. It's truly awesome and sterilizes both coming in and exhaling.

I feel like that was in some comic book I read once. 2020 is so weird. Does anybody think that the real reason for this virus was to curb population growth?

Andrew NDB

09-17-2020, 01:03 AM

I feel like that was in some comic book I read once. 2020 is so weird. Does anybody think that the real reason for this virus was to curb population growth?

Since it only really kills obese people and/or the super old... that isn't really an effective tool for curbing growth. Maybe a way to reduce the pool of people sucking up Medicare and all that, but doubtful. Now, Swine flu/H1N1... not quite as virulant/spready as COVID (though oddly, I actually DO know a bunch of people here that caught Swine flu) but that was actually killing young, healthy people left and right.

Another thought... if masks work and would have saved everybody months ago if they'd have been forced to wear them then (and how dare Trump not force that in February, etc.)... why can't we open everything back up, exactly? Like, if everyone is wearing one?

Mayhem

09-17-2020, 03:04 AM

Do I know anyone who's gotten Covid? Yes, at least ten people, ranging from work colleagues of my missus (one of whom came to my daughter's first birthday party last year, one is the wife of my missus' boss, and another who came to see us all in hospital multiple times as my daughter was born premature and she's a paedatric specialist with 30 years experience), personal friends (mostly in the UK but also one in Sweden), brother of another friend, and more. Thankfully no one has died to date that I know.

It isn't just about not dying. The friend in Sweden is still technically isolating being infected for over two months but not with severe enough symptoms to require hospital admittance. One friend gets MS like tiredness symptoms and horrible breathing issues a couple times per week. It's estimated that at least a quarter of those who survive will live with some form of lung or heart problems going forward. It may not kill you, but damn sure it may affect your life expectancy in some other fashion.

Andrew NDB

09-17-2020, 03:21 AM

garsh

09-17-2020, 04:52 PM

Not a joke post: I think since they can allegedly track who infected whom, we ought to be able to sue those that infect us, or our family members.

Why not? We have legal repercussions for traffic accidents. Manslaughter is still a punishable form a murder. Injury from neglect punishable.

If micro-organism responsibility is too ridiculous, I wouldn't be able to argue against it.

Leo656

09-17-2020, 04:59 PM

I mean, I've had flus that have WRECKED me for a couple of months. But I got better.

Oh man, that reminds me of this one time when I got a REALLY bad chest infection that seemed like it was gonna wreck me for life. I was still doing move jobs, and I was on this gigantic household move until around 11pm and it poured rain for about 3/4s of the time. By the time we got in the truck to go home I already knew I was sick and called out for the next day. I ended up missing about two weeks, and it hadn't really cleared up yet I just had no choice but to get back to work eventually. I think it started as walking pneumonia but I don't remember; for like a whole YEAR afterwards, I would feel perfectly fine but then randomly break out into horrendous coughing fits that would last for over a minute sometimes. It hung around for so long that I figured it just wasn't gonna go away and it just became an everyday part of my life.

Then one day it just stopped happening, and I didn't even notice for the longest time. Damnedest thing! I still can't explain it. Life's very strange sometimes.

Allsparrow

09-17-2020, 05:45 PM

So, Mayhem has had a lot of experience with the virus, while Andrew NDB and it looks like Leo656 have not, while Garsh is looking to sue people, and IMJ likes the cool U-V masks. Anybody else have direct experience? I found out my friends dad died, and so did 7 of his co-workers. They worked at a packing plant, one guy was just 24.

IndigoErth

09-17-2020, 08:58 PM

:tsad: Too sad, the meat packing plants have had such a hard time. Those plants (mostly chicken in my state) are exactly why our most rural county was for quite a while at a greater number of cases than my county, the most populated one.

Now, my county is back to having the greatest number of cases, and given the population difference isn't surprising, however my zip code vs where the meat plants are is, as of yesterday's numbers, at a 165 cases per 10,000 people vs their 838.5 per 10,000. Ouch. My god, just load crop duster planes (or the ones that drop water onto fires) up the tons of Lysol... o.O (The middle county between is oddly the one who is fairing the best.)

It's kind of humbling to think that the food on your plate may have been processed by someone who died of that virus by the time you sat down to that meal. :tsad:

edit: Can I just say though... the ads for the new plastic face shield that sits at your neck rather than from the forehead look pretty damn silly and pointless. Looks like a human wearing half a cone that will just act as a funnel for any virus laden particles succumbing to gravity.

Allsparrow

09-17-2020, 09:20 PM

So, I found this article, which appears to dispel a few myths. Worth a read if you’re wondering why we’ve been getting mixed messages from doctors, including the reluctance to acknowledge that this is actually airborne, and nothing at all like a flu.
https://elemental.medium.com/the-most-likely-way-youll-get-infected-with-covid-19-30430384e5a5

I planned to join because I wanted to talk turtles, but death and sickness seems to be everywhere. I’m feeling down.

I haven’t seen the masks you mean.

Mayhem

09-18-2020, 02:54 AM

None of that is proven yet, as there is no long term data on it (the whole bit about "you may live, but suffer irrevocable damage/quality of life" stuff afterward) that that's actually the case. Maybe it will prove to be but we simply don't know yet as not enough time has passed. The cases I see this being said about appear to largely be the people that are obese and had to be kept on a ventilator for an extended period of time. Then come out of it f***ed up.
Analysis of the lungs of those who contracted Covid but have recovered has demonstrated around 20-25% of them have visible scarring which will affect their breathing capacity. That isn't going to heal, and is what I meant in part by "irrevocable damage". One of my friends is definitely seeing that, he gets out of breath a lot more easily even months after he has recovered. The heart problems are starting to become more pronounced and trying to understand why it also happens.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/09/evidence-builds-covid-19-can-damage-heart-doctors-are-racing-understand-it

My point mostly was, you may recover from it, but as you get older, damage done to your lungs and heart by Covid now even as a younger person (my friend mentioned above is 48 and no where near obese) may decrease your life expectency, and may bring on conditions associated with those organs earlier in life. As you note Andrew, sure none of this is proven, but logic suggests this is the more likely scenario.

Voltron

09-18-2020, 05:22 AM

Analysis of the lungs of those who contracted Covid but have recovered has demonstrated around 20-25% of them have visible scarring which will affect their breathing capacity. That isn't going to heal, and is what I meant in part by "irrevocable damage". One of my friends is definitely seeing that, he gets out of breath a lot more easily even months after he has recovered. The heart problems are starting to become more pronounced and trying to understand why it also happens.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/09/evidence-builds-covid-19-can-damage-heart-doctors-are-racing-understand-it

My point mostly was, you may recover from it, but as you get older, damage done to your lungs and heart by Covid now even as a younger person (my friend mentioned above is 48 and no where near obese) may decrease your life expectency, and may bring on conditions associated with those organs earlier in life. As you note Andrew, sure none of this is proven, but logic suggests this is the more likely scenario.

There's not many positive ways to approach this idea. Even if someone isn't sympathetic to the chance of permanent damage, proven or otherwise, "short-term" infections could last months.

That costs the state a LOT of money. There's a lot of unseen costs that fall directly on the tax payer. A lot of people don't have jobs at the moment, either, so a lot of the bills can't be paid. If we aren't going to shell out cash for a public option, then why waste cash for people who insist on living recklessly?

In the end, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure rings true. Since we don't know what we're dealing with, it's a good idea to proceed with extreme caution.

Allsparrow

09-18-2020, 12:26 PM

The proven part is what seems to be confusing. I think sometimes, it’s hard for people to actually believe it until it happens to them. There is a significant amount of disinformation going around. This is not a flu, the flu is influenza, corona virus is a category which includes the common cold, but also sars-covid2, amount others. It can get confusing, and the early messaging that it only affected the weak and obese, or the old, is turning out to be bad information. Lung scarring is part of what happens, the amount of scarring is dependent on how sick you get, but everyone who gets COVID, will have scared lungs. All major organs are also going to have damage, it’s long been known, but because the media is focused on stopping spread, aftermath has taken a backseat.

It is also very disheartening to continue to read that we do not know what we are dealing with. We do. It is a blood disease, that affects how your blood clots. They treat it like SARS, because sars describes the most common methods of infection. It was seen to enter and attack the lungs, so the assumption was this would behave like SARS. If any if you are in the sciences, medcram on YouTube does a great job of going into further detail.

IndigoErth

09-18-2020, 12:26 PM

And to add onto Mayhem's point... What if there is a next time? Sure, a lot of people around our ages and younger may have a higher survival rate with this and most who get it will likely pull through, but if it's leaving people with permanent lung damage, what then if we have the bad luck that another strain of this or an equally bad virus does show up later? Well, I guess enjoy the higher chance of dying from a second blow, because that's now a preexisting condition on a vital organ harshly impacted by respiratory illnesses. :ohwell:

Hell, if scarring is bad enough, I suppose that also then puts people at a greater risk of a tougher time dealing with viruses like the flu. But at least there's already always new vaccines for it every year.

I'd rather just try to avoid the whole darn thing and not risk being a victim of round two, so to speak, because of the fallout of this one.

Allsparrow

09-18-2020, 12:33 PM

The bigger issue is that you don’t maintain immunity. You can catch it again, as the antibodies don’t stay in your system for longer than 3 months.

Andrew NDB

09-18-2020, 04:10 PM

The bigger issue is that you don’t maintain immunity. You can catch it again, as the antibodies don’t stay in your system for longer than 3 months.

Not proven.

Voltron

09-18-2020, 09:59 PM

Not proven.

It's been observed and documented.

Ignorance isn't an excuse for recklessness.

Allsparrow

09-18-2020, 09:59 PM

Not proven.

I’m beginning to understand why some cats, as you said, might come at you. Why would you argue it’s not proven? I’m not even sure proven is the right wording, seems like a weird thing to debate. I don’t mind you expressing how you feel, but arguing about what people are suffering is insensitive and kind of cruel. I’m happy you haven’t had to deal with it, and happy that your daughter is enjoying distance learning, as you said. It’s not optimal, but she’s at least safe.

Sumac

09-19-2020, 04:33 AM

There is a lot of strange stuff about this virus. Like WHO, which changes it position about according to Chinese communists. And strange numbers and inconsistencies about people who have been infected.

Andrew NDB

09-19-2020, 05:29 AM

I’m happy you haven’t had to deal with it, and happy that your daughter is enjoying distance learning, as you said. It’s not optimal, but she’s at least safe.

She was already safe. She's fit, she's 12, she has no asthma or anything else to be bothered with. The only thing doing her active damage is the lack of actual school.

Voltron

09-19-2020, 09:22 AM

Just because someone has a low risk of symptomatic infection doesn't mean they can't spread it. Reopening the schools at the moment would be a disaster, if not for the kids, then for their families.

Allsparrow

09-19-2020, 12:42 PM

I think the WHO arguments are political, and maybe should be left aside. If you don’t trust governments and institutions, that’s okay, but this is a group on Facebook, of people talking about their experiences. There are many like this, sharing what it’s like afterwards. https://www.facebook.com/groups/COVIDLongHaulers/

To Andrew: Why would that make her safe? She’s not, you are not, just because you think you’re healthy. That’s part of the bad information from 3 months ago. I can’t stress enough, as angry as you might be about the job loss, it’s important to stay appraised of what the developing information is. The article I shared before showed that many early assumptions were false. I know a mask is annoying, but having a stroke, is more annoying, having to walk slowly, when pre COVID you could run, is frustrating. It all sounds like scare tactics, and stuff that happens to other people. My friends thought so too. Try to take it as warnings, and if you never have to go through it, count yourself lucky, better to be safe than sorry.

To Voltron: I don’t think most people care, sadly, if others get it. Most people are only worried about them. Other people starts to sound like socialism, and socialism is communism, and that’s UnAmerican. The real concern is that the longer this goes on, the harder the economy will be hit. For that reason alone, masking up, together, ending all social gatherings, together, in unison, is the best bet, to move forward.

IndigoErth

09-19-2020, 02:34 PM

Most people are only worried about them. Other people starts to sound like socialism, and socialism is communism, and that’s UnAmerican.
I guess this is what good old ME culture has evolved into. Gone from just being a self focused jerk and attention whore that mattered little in the long run to..."Why should I care if we pass a harmful virus around, give it to you and some of your family dies as a result?"

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union"...forgot how to effing care about our fellow citizens.

"America first! But screw anyone who isn't me!"

And now you've got QAnon idiots who were tying up 911 lines with false conspiracies of "leftists," etc causing the wildfires and literally harming the response time of first responders for people in the middle of it that need actual help.

There used to be a line people wouldn't cross. A point where they think "this is too far" or "this is too absurd to be real" or "doing this would hurt people." But it seems like many don't even recognize that line anymore.

Ugh. The whole thing just makes me so angry anymore. (Don't expect me to be pulled into debate, anyone who wants to yell about my opinions on it. Feeling sometimes like wanting to roast some of these people on a spit and burn the world down is enough outside of this place without getting into it with people I generally otherwise enjoy talking to here and normally some of the better part of my day.)

Yes, I understand that the shutdowns that have cost some businesses their existence and some people their jobs, including some of you here (and I hope all the best and better for you), is awful and unfair, but I do not in any way agree that allowing an unnecessary amount of people to die of this is the answer; because that's a really effed up answer. As much money as we all collectively are giving this so-called government of ours all the time, people deserve to get things back on that investment when they are in need of it, and the goverment should absolutely have stepped up, and still should, to ENSURE that those businesses that have had to close can come back and reopen their doors and rehire those people. All that cost of our tax dollars spent on golfing during this pandemic could and probably should have gone into some businesses to help them stay open or come back after this crap has passed. I would so gladly support and believe, if I truly could, that taxes I pay went into help other citizens in this mess to get those businesses and jobs back, rather than paying for stupid golf trips, etc.

If we can not collectively help our people get through this, then that is a gross failing on our government and as a nation, not a failing of people who don't want themselves or loved ones to get ill and die in preference of money being more important.

There are reasons why we are failing at dealing with this as well as many other nations have, and it isn't because liberals want people to wear masks and stay safe.