WandaVision

[TigerClaw]

Disney just released the Trailer for Marvel Studio's WandaVision Series for Disney+

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[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Weird.

I want to like it, but I don't.

[Galactus]

I love it.

[Coola Yagami]

I don't get it. Most I can gather is it looks like Wanda can't cope with her loss so she somehow bent reality to bring Vision back or whatever? And that the boardroom behind this must have been smoking bowls of the **** during the entire process, beginning to end?

[neatoman]

What are the odds of Magneto showing up?

[ZariusTwo]

This is based partially on Tom King's Vision comic book series, which while equally pretty trippy and good is...pretty depressing.

Seems they've flipped the concept though, with it being about Wanda trying for an idealised family. Wanda is only a supporting character in the comic book, not the co-lead

[AquaParade]

Looks pretty great to me. Feels like somewhat of a curveball for the MCU, which it needs. They are showing the subdued aspects but you can expect it will burst into color and action by the end.

[Andrew NDB]

Hm. Could be pretty OK.

[raph27]

Glad this is still coming out in 2020, unlike most other things.

[Autbot_Benz]

Glad this is still coming out in 2020, unlike most other things.

nope not coming out till January 2021


WandaVision
@wandavision
· 2h
A new era arrives. Marvel Studios’ #WandaVision, an Original Series, is streaming Jan. 15 on #DisneyPlus.

[ZariusTwo]

The series will be nine episodes

https://thedisinsider.com/2021/01/04/wandavision-confirmed-for-nine-episodes-new-theme-song-from-frozen-songwriters/

The show will have several songs penned by the Frozen franchise's Kristen Anderson-Lopez and Robert Lopez

[ZariusTwo]

Was able to watch the first episode. Alright start


I like that we got to see Vision at his workplace, sets up more characters and it did a good job of prepping us for the circumstances of the dinner party.

"Breakfast for Dinner"...heh, it is hard to tell sometimes in black and white just what time of day it is.

Mrs. Hart covering Wanda's eyes and saying "this guest is leaving your home" sounds like security clearance to me.

[AquaParade]

I'm hearing that things kick into gear during the third episode, which releases next week.

[CyberCubed]

After all the eps are up I might marathon through this but so far not that interesting but it could be a surprise.

[frank_one]

Elizabeth Olsen is top-waifu but I don't give a damn about Marvel stuff. I must admit the series' concept seems quite original though.

[ZariusTwo]

Overall I like it, but don't love it. They waste too much time on the sit-com plots and there's very little progression of the overall mystery until towards the end of each story.

[Leo656]

Overall I like it, but don't love it. They waste too much time on the sit-com plots and there's very little progression of the overall mystery until towards the end of each story.

Hmm, I've seen some people compare it to "Twin Peaks", that sounds like a big reason why, albeit with "sitcom" and "soap opera" swapped around.

[ZariusTwo]

Hmm, I've seen some people compare it to "Twin Peaks", that sounds like a big reason why, albeit with "sitcom" and "soap opera" swapped around.

Yeah, the boss choking on his dinner in episode one is kind of like a TP freak-out sequence.

[Coola Yagami]

Overall I like it, but don't love it. They waste too much time on the sit-com plots and there's very little progression of the overall mystery until towards the end of each story.

Isn't that the point though? They can't blow their wad early or it won't last past the third episode.

[Andrew NDB]

Saw the first two. Pretty OK. Eerie, in a big way. I think by the time we get 2 or 3 more into things we will appreciate this starting off point quite a bit more, the way I reckon.

[ZariusTwo]

Isn't that the point though? They can't blow their wad early or it won't last past the third episode.

You don't need to 'blow the wad' early, but they could at the very least have advanced and enhanced the situation more than they did here.

[AquaParade]

I agree with the majority here. It drags a bit, but there is an effective, eerie tone. Looking forward to more.

If nothing else, it may be the most unique thing the MCU has done within it’s own catalogue. That alone has me excited for the other upcoming projects.

[Coola Yagami]

Honestly though, I kinda don't like any of these new shows coming out. Like I'm glad Wanda is at least in the next Dr Strange movie. I know End Game was final, but it didn't have to be for anyone but the core (movie) Avengers. Hell, Thor is still going on adventures, and it follows the comics all Hulk has to do is get really made (accidentally or some other incident) to turn him back into OG Hulk and his healing factor will heal up his arm.

I just feel these shows, even though they might be interesting or whatever, really water down the brand and almost guarantees that their movie fun is over. While Cap and Iron Man are gone, I'd like to know if some other big threat happens, at least Falcon, War Machine, Thor, Wanda and whoever else are still there to protect the world alongside whatever new characters they bring in (X-Men or Miss Marvel or what-have-you).

[CyberCubed]

They are probably just trying to get more mileage out of the actors until they get too old or get too busy working in other shows/movies. It makes sense, the MCU has been going on over 12 years now and there's no guarantee how much longer they can keep the same cast.

Eventually in the year 2030+ they'll probably have to do a full reboot with a new Iron man, Thor, Captain America, Hulk, etc. with a whole new set of young actors, so might as well squeeze the current cast for everything they can.

[TigerClaw]

They are probably just trying to get more mileage out of the actors until they get too old or get too busy working in other shows/movies. It makes sense, the MCU has been going on over 12 years now and there's no guarantee how much longer they can keep the same cast.

Eventually in the year 2030+ they'll probably have to do a full reboot with a new Iron man, Thor, Captain America, Hulk, etc. with a whole new set of young actors, so might as well squeeze the current cast for everything they can.
They don't really have to reboot all those characters and recast them. They can just use the characters that are the next generation of those. Look at Hawkeye for example. Kate Bishop became the new Hawkeye in the Comics. Also Ironheart replaces Tony Stark's Ironman.

[Leo656]

They don't really have to reboot all those characters and recast them. They can just use the characters that are the next generation of those. Look at Hawkeye for example. Kate Bishop became the new Hawkeye in the Comics. Also Ironheart replaces Tony Stark's Ironman.

Yeah nobody cares about them.

It'll definitely be a full reboot eventually. Probably revisiting Time Travel Shenanigans as a way to both preserve the idea of original MCU timeline for people who don't want to see it thrown out or ignored entirely, and also to explain why suddenly everyone looks younger and entirely different.

I doubt they'd gamble the future of the brand on "scab" replacements for their most iconic characters when they could whip up a new Tony Stark tomorrow if they felt like it. Like three people would whine and everybody else would go along, just like when Xavier and Magneto and the other X-Men got recast. "They'll never be able to replace Patrick Stewart!" and then they just went ahead and did that. Same thing.

Speaking of the X-Men, though, smart money says that will be the "buffer" between the original MCU and the Reboot MCU. That makes the most sense, to me. I mean you can't focus on too many things at once anyway, and they're absolutely bringing the X-Men in sooner rather than later, so for a few years the MCU will be less "Avengers"-centric and more "X-Men"-centric. And then eventually they'll probably do another "Days of Future Past" adaptation, which will cause havoc with the timeline and allow the Avengers like Captain America and Iron Man to come back with new actors, and THEN they'll do the inevitable X-Men/Avengers cross-over and make 8 billion dollars.

That's one of the biggest reasons you know they'll do a reboot. They are 100% going to do an X-Men/Avengers movie and they're absolutely not going to do that with "scabs". They're going to include the "real" Avengers like Cap and Iron Man or else they're not gonna bother. They'll be different actors, but it won't be "Ironheart" or whoever, it'll be Iron Man. Guaranteed. So even if they do one or two movies with the scabs between Now and Then, they definitely won't be sticking around.

[Coola Yagami]

Yeah nobody cares about them.

It'll definitely be a full reboot eventually. Probably revisiting Time Travel Shenanigans as a way to both preserve the idea of original MCU timeline for people who don't want to see it thrown out or ignored entirely, and also to explain why suddenly everyone looks younger and entirely different.

I doubt they'd gamble the future of the brand on "scab" replacements for their most iconic characters when they could whip up a new Tony Stark tomorrow if they felt like it. Like three people would whine and everybody else would go along, just like when Xavier and Magneto and the other X-Men got recast. "They'll never be able to replace Patrick Stewart!" and then they just went ahead and did that. Same thing.

Speaking of the X-Men, though, smart money says that will be the "buffer" between the original MCU and the Reboot MCU. That makes the most sense, to me. I mean you can't focus on too many things at once anyway, and they're absolutely bringing the X-Men in sooner rather than later, so for a few years the MCU will be less "Avengers"-centric and more "X-Men"-centric. And then eventually they'll probably do another "Days of Future Past" adaptation, which will cause havoc with the timeline and allow the Avengers like Captain America and Iron Man to come back with new actors, and THEN they'll do the inevitable X-Men/Avengers cross-over and make 8 billion dollars.

That's one of the biggest reasons you know they'll do a reboot. They are 100% going to do an X-Men/Avengers movie and they're absolutely not going to do that with "scabs". They're going to include the "real" Avengers like Cap and Iron Man or else they're not gonna bother. They'll be different actors, but it won't be "Ironheart" or whoever, it'll be Iron Man. Guaranteed. So even if they do one or two movies with the scabs between Now and Then, they definitely won't be sticking around.

That makes sense. I mean there's a reason why even to this day, despite all the wannabe replacements and whatever, the original Captain America, Thor and Iron Man are still around in the comics.

That's why I never liked the idea of legacy character. Sure it builds up the notion that our hero's name and ideals live on through someone else..... but it isn't really a legacy if the original is still around.

Legacy characters only work if they come from the far future or if the OG hero really does retire or die and actually stays retired or dead like... forever. Uncle Ben style.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Watched this yesterday. It was weird and trippy, like a bizarre mix of I Love Lucy, Pleasantville, and The Twilight Zone. In a good way. On the surface, it looked like cheesy saccharin 50's sitcom fare, but there are some pretty bizarre and creepy moments throughout each episode, especially with the little "commercial breaks", and certain scenes where things are definitely "off". Plus, the odd juxtaposition of the black and white show and the pixilated color credits at the end. I thought it would be like a parody of Bewitched or some such, but this seems far more twisted (or warped) than that. Wanda seems to have some kind of partial control over things around her, (ie, certain scenes make it seem as if she is doing everything unconsciously), but there is clearly also something going on outside of her perspective.

[Andrew NDB]

and also to explain why suddenly everyone looks younger and entirely different.

Are they going to ever get around to giving us the explanation why Bruce Banner doesn't look like Ed Norton anymore, then? I've sure been waiting for it.

[Leo656]

Are they going to ever get around to giving us the explanation why Bruce Banner doesn't look like Ed Norton anymore, then? I've sure been waiting for it.

:lol::lol::lol: You're alright, You.

[The Deadman]

Watched the first 2 episodes last night, found the humor to be actually pretty good.

[AquaParade]

The multiverse angle allows the MCU to have their cake and eat it too when it comes to legacy characters. They don't need to reboot anything, necessarily. Downey's Jr will always be Iron Man in the MCU....at least in the first MCU universe established. If they want a new Iron Man, they can hop over to a new timeline, while still respecting the legacy of RDJ.

That said, I wouldn't be so sure they will do away with "scabs" or legacy characters anytime soon, or neglect them in future crossovers. General audiences didn't much care for Cap, Thor, or Hawkeye before the MCU began, but Feige sold them on the idea and now they are nearly as big of pop culture icons as Spidey. Who's to say that the MCU can't do the same with legacy characters? T the end of the day, general audiences will decide which characters are important to the MCU, not aging comic book readers.

It really could go either way. The other thing is Kevin Feigr is very reverent of the comic books, so yeah, he will want to see Wolverine meet Steve Rogers, as opposed to Sam Wilson, on some significant level. At the same time, the MCU is:
A. Unprecedented
B. Finally free of upper mgmt breathing down it's neck
C. Beginning to experiment more with characters and storylines. See: The Eternals, WandaVision, etc.
These are elements that point towards a possibility of Kevin and his team of producers having a desire to put their own stamp on things. This is easier with lesser known characters.

Either way, I'm pretty happy. The MCU isn't perfect but it brings me plenty of joy with what it gets right and the ambition & scope are unparalleled at this point. They've done justice to the original lineup, and I'm excited to see them build upon that. I'd rather that than another Iron Man "reboot" anytime soon.

[Andrew NDB]

I really hope WandaVision and/or Dr. Strange 2 aren't going to be the way they bring in the X-Men and/or the Fantastic Four. i.e., "here they are, coming in from another universe/reality! Ta-da!" Because that would be really, really dumb.

[ZariusTwo]

Just caught episode three.

Wanda wears a 'yellow jacket' at some point...nice nod there to one of Hank Pym's more problematic alter egos from the comics

Ultron reference from 'Geraldine'/Monica when Wanda makes mention of her being a twin and having lost a brother. Wanda casts Monica out of her bubble dimension after she references this

The twins are born...both boys that they name Billy and Tommy. It's implied here Wanda seemed to have planned the pregnancy from the outset, what with it having a 12-hour window.

Agness and some of the other neighbours seem to be trying to warn Vision of this world, maybe sway him to their side perhaps? Difficult to tell now who the antagonists are, especially with the way Wanda acts towards the end.

Agness' unseen husband Ralph 'prefers the dark'

And someone fire the person who approved the budget on that Stork. About the only kind of legitimate cringe in the episode

[Galactus]

I really hope WandaVision and/or Dr. Strange 2 aren't going to be the way they bring in the X-Men and/or the Fantastic Four. i.e., "here they are, coming in from another universe/reality! Ta-da!" Because that would be really, really dumb.

I highly doubt they will be used to introduce the FF but the X-Men remain a distinct possibility. I don't think there is any easy way to introduce mutants as if they've always existed that they might go the easy route that whatever Wanda does activates dormant X-genes in the MCU public. Kinda an inverse of what Wanda did in the comics at the end of House of M.

Personally while it might strain credibility I'd go that they did always exist in the MCU but we're in hiding. During the early Claremont days there was really only supposed to be a couple of hundred mutants in the world so easy for most who were not the X-Men or Brotherhood to retain their anyminity. It was only the line grew to numerous books and you needed an endless parade of new X-related characters and then Morrisson took the oppressed minority allegory to it's logical conclusion hence why when it was over Quesada felt had to use Wanda to cull the numbers of mutants.

[Andrew NDB]

Personally while it might strain credibility I'd go that they did always exist in the MCU but we're in hiding.

I don't think it would strain anything and they better do this.

[frank_one]

I really hope WandaVision and/or Dr. Strange 2 aren't going to be the way they bring in the X-Men and/or the Fantastic Four. i.e., "here they are, coming in from another universe/reality! Ta-da!" Because that would be really, really dumb.Don't give 'em ideas, man! Seriously this is the kind of stuff I can see Disney coming up with.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

But if they were always there, wouldn't they have been in the battles in Wakanda and that planet in Endgame?

[Coola Yagami]

But if they were always there, wouldn't they have been in the battles in Wakanda and that planet in Endgame?

Maybe they were still dealing with being mutants, before they joined a superhero group.

I'm assuming Quicksilver was just a one-time thing, but between this and the movie with Dr. Strange, they really are missing a hell of an opportunity to just bring him back to life with her reality-warping powers.

[frank_one]

But if they were always there, wouldn't they have been in the battles in Wakanda and that planet in Endgame?Maybe the original team was trapped on the Krakoa island like in Giant-size X-men #1 and a new team is recruited by Xavier to save the them like in the 1975 comics.

[AquaParade]

Episode 3 was a lot of fun. I feel like the first three episodes have been more or less the same thing, but they're clearly building up and the execution has been good. I'm excited to see where this goes. It feels fresh and different for the MCU.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Maybe the original team was trapped on the Krakoa island like in Giant-size X-men #1 and a new team is recruited by Xavier to save the them like in the 1975 comics.


I don't really see them doing that. The only really logical ways to bring in the X-Men, continuity wise, would be to either bring them from another universe(a cheap move, maybe, but it would at least keep from mucking up the timeline more than they have already) OR.... They could say their mutant genes didn't kick in until the "Snappening". That would give them the five year gap between for their mutations to awaken, and they could spend the time training. So they just weren't ready to fight yet. That's how I would sell it, anyway.

[Leo656]

It's okay. One day, Disney will have enough money to build a time machine so they can go back in time and talk Marvel out of selling all their properties to different movie studios back in the 90s. While they're there, Disney will also just buy Marvel outright about 20 years ahead of schedule, since in 1996 they probably could have had them for about a buck and a quarter. After that they'll just kickstart the MCU early, somewhere around the year 2000.

On one hand, this will mean the Raimi Spider-Man movies never happened. :ohwell:

On the OTHER hand, it will mean that the X-Men movies AND the Fantastic Four movies never happened. :tgrin::tgrin::tgrin:

All in all, a Net Win for everybody! You know that this is already well past the planning stages by now. This is what's going to happen.

We just won't know about it when it does, on account of our own timeline being either erased or folded into the new one once all of that actually comes to pass.

I will not miss my memories of X-Men 3. So that's fine.

[Andrew NDB]

Can anyone remind me why Marvel Studios even sold out to Disney? I vaguely remember Feige and the whole studio gambling everything on the success of Iron Man 1 and Incredible Hulk thing (like if they failed, they'd have to sell)... but it paid off, and then they sold anyway?

[ZariusTwo]

Can anyone remind me why Marvel Studios even sold out to Disney? I vaguely remember Feige and the whole studio gambling everything on the success of Iron Man 1 and Incredible Hulk thing (like if they failed, they'd have to sell)... but it paid off, and then they sold anyway?

Fiege didn't have half the power he had back then, others were making the decisions....hell the comic book writers had more power over the Studio projects back then.

[TigerClaw]

I'm expecting the final for WandaVision to have some kind of "No More Mutants" moment. But given we don't have Mutants in the MCU yet. Its gonna be something else entirely.

[IMJ]

I'm expecting the final for WandaVision to have some kind of "No More Mutants" moment. But given we don't have Mutants in the MCU yet. Its gonna be something else entirely.

Maybe that moment will actually somehow introduce mutants to the MCU rather than wipe them out.

[Galactus]

I've had a suspicion something like that would happen for a while not. However I still believe that the best way to do it is that mutants are out there in secret Xavier in the school training up the X-Men, Magneto training the Brotherhood in secret.

The big challenge of MCU mutants is to get the regular audience to 'get' why the majority of the public has little problem with humans with powers but are prejudiced against mutants or how they even distinguish between the two. How do they know Spider-Man isn't a mutant but instantly know Wolverine is. The explanations for all this is waifer thin and never really made sense even in the comics so I'd be interested to see how the MCU handles it.

[Leo656]

The big challenge of MCU mutants is to get the regular audience to 'get' why the majority of the public has little problem with humans with powers but are prejudiced against mutants or how they even distinguish between the two. How do they know Spider-Man isn't a mutant but instantly know Wolverine is. The explanations for all this is waifer thin and never really made sense even in the comics so I'd be interested to see how the MCU handles it.

Possibly my biggest problem with the entire Marvel comic book universe is that inconsistency right there. It makes NO sense why the general public within the Marvel Universe loves Spider Man and the Avengers but can't stand those "Dirty Muties". It's f*cking STUPID. Like it's SO obvious that the X-Men stories shouldn't even take place in the same universe as the rest of the Marvel U, they only do because of publishing rights. But it doesn't fit at ALL. It would be like if within the DCU, Superman was beloved but Martian Manhunter was "an alien menace", or some dumb sh*t. They're almost the same freakin' GUY. A little internal consistency, PLEASE. Like, I get that X-Men is a political allegory for oppressed/marginalized peoples more than anything else, more even than it is a "super-hero story" I guess, but it goes to show how staying slavishly devoted to that allegory has caused serious consistency problems for the larger Marvel brand. People hating Cyclops while cheering for Iron Man makes no goddamn sense, in-universe.

The BEST, though, is how in-universe, the whole story is bluntly and directly "Mutants Are People, Too!", that's literally the whole point... and yet, in court, Marvel said the exact opposite so they'd get to pay lower tariffs on X-Men action figures. :lol: Seriously! At one point there was a court case about whether or not the Mutants are actually human beings, since toys based on human beings are more expensive to produce and ship, but "non-humans" are cheaper. SO, in spite of what they've been putting on the printed page as gospel for decades and what the overall message of the X-Men comic is supposed to teach to kids and the rest of the audience - "Mutants Are Just People Like Anyone Else" - when it came down to saving a few bucks, Marvel stood up in court and said "Of COURSE the Mutants aren't actually human beings, what're you, nuts? Look at 'em, they're clearly freaks and monsters, not people." :lol: Greed-driven hypocrisy for the motherf*cking WIN. I love that kinda sh*t. :lol:

Can anyone remind me why Marvel Studios even sold out to Disney? I vaguely remember Feige and the whole studio gambling everything on the success of Iron Man 1 and Incredible Hulk thing (like if they failed, they'd have to sell)... but it paid off, and then they sold anyway?

The same reason why Marvel contradicted their entire publishing history by testifying in court that the X-Men aren't really human beings:
https://64.media.tumblr.com/98b41254e8ebbbddff34e90471a934c4/tumblr_p2r2c9gGzs1r7dh6wo1_250.gifv
https://i.makeagif.com/media/12-21-2015/pXxSop.gif

These answers need not be complicated. :trazz: It's generally Exactly What You'd Think It Is.

[Andrew NDB]

Possibly my biggest problem with the entire Marvel comic book universe is that inconsistency right there. It makes NO sense why the general public within the Marvel Universe loves Spider Man and the Avengers but can't stand those "Dirty Muties".

It makes sense to me. Captain America got his powers by being given an experimental super serum and hit with Gamma Rays, Spider-Man got his by being bitten by a one of a kind radioactive spider, Iron Man built a suit, and so on, and so on.

But mutants? Anybody could end up being a mutant. The guy next to you could be a omega-level supermutant one day and destroy a city, for all you know. Alternately, your son or daughter could also one day turn out to be a mutant (this is where the woke writers have always loved X-Men... their favorite thing to do is parallel being a mutant with being gay, and "the cure" with gay conversion therapy and all that). And it's a gene.

On a government-level (Sentinels, high level G men, etc.)? The immediate push would be to identify and round up mutants, for classification and study (as in, "Are they evil and do they have mutant nuclear powers that will kill a million people one day?" -- they kind of need to make sure the answer is a "no") and/or therapy to ensure they're no danger to themselves or others. This isn't remotely the same thing as the people who get powers in completely random situations ala the Avengers... mutants are everywhere and half of them are probably going to end up being bad guys and this would horrify the government(s). The occasional Spider-Man or even Captain Marvel popping up once every couple of decades is one thing... this is quite another.

Maybe that moment will actually somehow introduce mutants to the MCU rather than wipe them out.

I'm really, really hoping that's not what they do. Just popping open the door to some other dimension and the X-Men jumping through it into the main MCU universe... that's ridiculously dumb. Alternately, exploring another dimension and meeting the X-Men there and just leaving that dimension as the dimension that future movies will explore as its own separate thing... also dumb.

X-Men Movie #1, just begin with Professor X making a speech that after the Thanos debacle, mutants can no longer afford to hide in the shadows as they have for decades... that they are among you and are (mostly) your friends. Maybe cut to Nick Fury stepping to a mic, chiming in, "Yeah... they've been out there. Today, I'm de-classifying the X-Men." And we just go from there. Simple. Future MCU movies could even have flashbacks to when MCU characters encountered mutants but didn't make a big deal about it. Like Storm in Black Panther 2, etc..

Although sh**... maybe I've just figured out what they're going to do. Maybe they're going to indeed reveal a second Earth as an Earth that doesn't have the Avengers, but instead has the X-Men and the Fantastic Four. We'll get a couple of movies out of each, and then there will be the big X-Men vs. Avengers movie... and they'll merge the two worlds together and that will be the explanation.

[Leo656]

Ehhhhhh... You're still dealing with people who are "extra-enabled" and "more than human" in either case. Why are some people who can fly and shoot fireballs REALLY that much Better or Worse than others? Because of the specific "How" in regards to how they ended up that way? Ehhhhhh.

I get your point, but I still feel like it only makes sense if you squint. If anything, I think people would be MORE accepting of Mutants if it were an "It could happen to anyone" type of thing, because of "There But For The Grace Go I" and all of that. They'd probably resent people like Captain America, Iron Man and so on for being "chosen" to be "special people"; they'd conversely have empathy for people who had no say whatsoever in the matter.

Again, I understand how you see it. You also pay a lot closer attention to Marvel than I do or ever did. As a relative neophyte, their universe and the motivations of people and characters within said universe make NO goddamn sense to me whatsoever. If this were Real Life, the common rabble would most likely accept and empathize with Mutants but they'd hate Captain America and Iron Man and so forth. That's how I look at it. IF there were any schism whatsoever between "specially-abled" people within said universe. And I still kinda don't think there really ought'a be. There's Freaks and Normies and that's that, as far as I'm concerned; once you start dividing up the people who can fly and say "These Ones are bad because they got their powers by accident but These Others are good because it was on purpose", or whatever, it's just muddying things up too much and it's all very silly.

Like, in DC there's humans and "Metahumans" and that's that. When the public in the DCU every so often decides they're fed up with guys who wear capes, they turn on Batman just as much as Superman. You're on one side or the other of the "Capes and Masks Brigade", whether you have powers or not, got them by accident or on purpose or born that way... you're either a "meta" or a civilian and That's That. There's no further splitting of hairs and I prefer it be that way.

[Andrew NDB]

Also, unless I missed it... the Sekovia Accords are still in place, aren't they? I didn't see them getting torn up during Infinity War or Endgame, even if things were dire for everybody.

i.e., the Avengers are a government sponsored entity. Mutants would not be.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

And that right there is the crux of it. Mutants can't be controlled like a random "accidental" or experimentally powered human. They are literally an entire "race" unto themselves- amd one with frightening implications for the rest of humanity, at that. The whole POINT of the Xavier vs Magneto debate is whether or not mutants should be RULING humans, perhaps even exterminating them, or simply trying to coexist and work WITH them. This is why so many humans in the MU are afraid of mutants, because they never know which side of that equation a mutant will fall on, or if they might ALL decide to rise up and take over one day. (M Day, aka House of M was a good example of how that would end up, and it's why so many on both sides were horrified by the prospect. Now imagine the average Joe getting caught up in that, and seeing it come true!)

[Coola Yagami]

I kinda feel in the MCU Captain America and Iron Man (and by default War Machine) get a pass cause at least in the movies it kinda looks like schools teach about Captain America and everybody knows Iron Man is a guy in a suit.

But in a world where mutants exist, there is no reason at all to not think Hulk, Thor, Vision, Spider-Man or even Ant Man are mutants. Sure, WE know about the radioactive spiders and gamma rays and Ant Man is using some shrink suit, but the world at large doesn't.

Come to think of it, it doesn't even make sense people at a mall or whatever have zero problem posing with a friendly, but still very oversized and friendly Hulk but would wish death upon Jubilee for example.

In the comics it also doesn't make sense cause the characters are so interchangeable. Members of the X-Men have been Avengers before, Spider-Man is a 'menace' but he's an Avenger too and so forth.

[frank_one]

But in a world where mutants exist, there is no reason at all to not think Hulk, Thor, Vision, Spider-Man or even Ant Man are mutants. Sure, WE know about the radioactive spiders and gamma rays and Ant Man is using some shrink suit, but the world at large doesn't.Very good point. As far as people know Spider-man could have been born with his powers so he could be a mutant. No one knows he got bitten by a radioactive spider. Actually people know very little about superheroes' origins.

[Andrew NDB]

Very good point. As far as people know Spider-man could have been born with his powers so he could be a mutant. No one knows he got bitten by a radioactive spider. Actually people know very little about superheroes' origins.

But they'd know he was one of the Avengers, a government overseen entity and would have been vetted accordingly. i.e., not just some random scary mutant.

And he was. Fury apparently had been watching him from the very start.

[sdp]

the x-men universe being a part of the Marvel Universe has never made sense no matter how many convoluted explanations they write to explain it.

[TigerClaw]

The issues with bringing Mutants into the MCU is nobody won't be able to distinguish between humans who have powers to the mutants who also have powers. Same goes with Inhumans. With Ms Marvel coming up. They either change her origin of being an Inhuman or they find a way to introduce Inhumans to the MCU even though they ignored the Inhumans TV show.

[Leo656]

And that right there is the crux of it. Mutants can't be controlled like a random "accidental" or experimentally powered human. They are literally an entire "race" unto themselves- amd one with frightening implications for the rest of humanity, at that. The whole POINT of the Xavier vs Magneto debate is whether or not mutants should be RULING humans, perhaps even exterminating them, or simply trying to coexist and work WITH them. This is why so many humans in the MU are afraid of mutants, because they never know which side of that equation a mutant will fall on, or if they might ALL decide to rise up and take over one day. (M Day, aka House of M was a good example of how that would end up, and it's why so many on both sides were horrified by the prospect. Now imagine the average Joe getting caught up in that, and seeing it come true!)

But to this SAME exact point, why is that exclusive to "mutants"? What's stopping The Avengers from hypothetically taking over from "regular people" and ruling over all mankind, too? You've got "gods" and super-soldiers and guys wearing indestructible walking tanks; if they wanted to "rule the world", nobody could stop them. They're NO different from "Mutants" in that regard, and thus the public by rights should have the same mistrust and fear of ANY metahumans that they do towards mutants. If they're going to fear and hate One Group of super-powered people, then the only logical thing would be for them to fear ALL of them. Because there's no logical reason to believe "Well, Magneto might try and take over the world, but Thor wouldn't." He might; who'd stop him?

This is why the only non-Spider-Man Marvel stuff I ever read much of was the Supreme Power/Squadron Supreme stuff. It really bangs that nail on the head. You don't need to be a mutant to potentially take over the world; you simply need to have the power to do so, it doesn't matter WHERE that power came from. So if you're an in-universe character and you fear and distrust mutants, you really ought to be just as afraid of the Avengers. They're every bit as "dangerous" as the Brotherhood or the X-Men.

And again, in the DCU you treat this issue a lot more clearly and succinctly. Max Lord doesn't only hate or fear or mistrust "one specific group" of metahumans or extra-abled people for weird arbitrary reasons; he and people who think as he does just think, "Yeah, ANYBODY who can punch out a mountain or walk on the sun is probably too dangerous to run around among human beings; doesn't matter WHY they're super-powered, we need to get rid of them." WE know the Good Guys from the Bad Guys, but in-universe the very concept of anybody being that powerful would be terrifying to any non-metas. They wouldn't care "Well some guys are aliens and some guys are mutants and some guys are lab accidents, therefore SOME are more dangerous than others"... that's NOT how these things work. They'd just think ALL of them were dangerous. Because potentially, they are. We the reader know that Max Lord and Lex Luthor are "bad guys", because we see the thought balloons of the heroic characters and thus we know who's a Good Guy and who's not. But in-story? In-Story, Lex and Max make rational sense when they say, "ALL metahumans are dangerous, no matter where they came from or how they got their powers." They're correct to say that. WE only know they're full of sh*t and acting for their own gain because again, we see their thought balloons. But on a surface level, they aren't wrong.

Again, the whole "Mutants are more dangerous than other metahumans" thing is just plain silly. Captain America has been a bad guy. Iron Man has been a bad guy. ANYONE who can shoot lasers out their eyes or crack a hole in the planet is potentially a Very Big Danger, and it matters not one bit how they came about their powers. There's Metas, and there's Normies. The rest is just splitting hairs.

[Andrew NDB]

But to this SAME exact point, why is that exclusive to "mutants"? What's stopping The Avengers from hypothetically taking over from "regular people" and ruling over all mankind, too?


The Sekovia Accords. And, in theory, even if some of them don't care about the Sekovia Accords and don't sign them, the rest that do will police them accordingly.

[Leo656]

Words on paper? :lol: Pshaw. People who can flip tanks have no reason to be honor-bound to such things.

If Thor hypothetically turned bad and decided to "rule the world", the fact that he signed a piece of paper promising that he wouldn't would be entirely meaningless. He's incredibly dangerous with or without that piece of paper.

Thus, Thor is ostensibly every bit as "dangerous" as Magneto or Prof. X. Which was my original point before it got muddied up. "Mutants" are no more or less inherently dangerous to "normals" than any other super-powered beings. It's All or Nothing, you're either a Meta or a Normie and ALL Metas are inherently "dangerous" to humanity. Which is why it's dumb to say, "These Metas pose MORE of a threat than Those Other Metas".

No, they don't. You can either read minds or you can't, you can fly or you can't, shoot fireballs or you can't. And if you CAN, then you're "potentially a threat" regardless of where those powers came from. I don't see what's so complicated about that.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

The entire point was that mutants represent a threat to humanity as a species. They are literally (and it's a known fact in-universe) the "next stage" of human evolution, and that scares the living $#*t out of normal people. Not because they are part of the powered community, but because their increasing numbers was seen as a clear threat to the survival of normal humans. It's like an australopithicus looking at a homo erectus and going "oh crap, they are going to REPLACE us!" And they'd be right. Because that was (and still is) the evolutionary progression in the MU, which is why people are so terrified of them. Because they AREN'T just random powered individuals, they are a NEW and "superior" SPECIES. So yeah, people treat them as something to be feared and hated for what they represent, not just because they have powers. The fact that they DO have some insanely powerful abilities just makes it even worse. Some mutants are KNOWN to have powers that can literally change the world around them, like Storm or Jean Grey or Magneto. And people know this, and it scares them $h*tless. It would be like dandelions in a grass lawn- they are stronger and more versatile; given time, they overrun the grass and edge it out. And that's what normal humans fear mutants will do (which was partly true, at least until Wanda's "no more mutants" meltdown.)

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

I'm with Leo.

Mutants and the "mainstream" Marvel universe should have been kept separate.

Anti-mutant prejudice makes zero sense in a world with the Fantastic Four, the Hulk, Spider-Man, the Avengers, Ant-Man and the Wasp, etc, etc, etc...

Average Joe on the street ain't gonna know the difference between gamma rays and the X gene, or Super Soldier Serum and the X Gene, or radioactive spiderbite and the X gene, and need I go on?

But comic crossovers gonna crossovers.

[AquaParade]

Mutants have always existed in the MCU, but barely. Now they are becoming a known quantity and parents everywhere are worried their child will be born with razor sharp eyeballs.

Resentment grows, lies are spread, rumours of the "x-gene" being contagious. Propaganda flairs up, because fear sells and leads to more control for those at the top.

Hulk, Spider-Man, Wanda are still, and have always been general outcasts and somewhat polarizing. Avengers are heroes. The public knows they aren't mutants. Some people pick and choose which "supers" they defend, some just hate them all.
There can be a bit of nuance there. It's not perfect, but it works.

Or do the multiverse thing, that works too. Occasional crossovers will likely feel just as epic either way.

[Leo656]

I'm with Leo.

Mutants and the "mainstream" Marvel universe should have been kept separate.

Anti-mutant prejudice makes zero sense in a world with the Fantastic Four, the Hulk, Spider-Man, the Avengers, Ant-Man and the Wasp, etc, etc, etc...

Average Joe on the street ain't gonna know the difference between gamma rays and the X gene, or Super Soldier Serum and the X Gene, or radioactive spiderbite and the X gene, and need I go on?

But comic crossovers gonna crossovers.

Thank you sir.

Although I'm not exactly totally against the X-Men being part of the rest of the Marvel U, I just think the WAY they've been integrated and so on makes no sense since they're treated like there's some huge substantial difference between mutants and other Metas. "These guys who can fly = Good, Those guys who can fly = Bad." That's dumb. It breaks the consistency of the universe.

"Mutants might supersede humans"? So potentially might aliens, "gods", Gamma-irradiated whatsits or super-soldiers. That's not a good explanation as to what makes mutants any "different" from other Metas, or why they're viewed or treated differently in-universe. If I lived in a world with The Hulk, for example, I'd definitely be thinking "Yikes, man, what if that thing breeds?" Spider-Man and Cap and other Metas, same thing. The progeny of ANY metahuman "race" or "species" could potentially mean the end of regular humans, if it became widespread, not just Mutants.

It's all just "It makes sense if you squint." And squinting gives me a headache.

Alan Moore's never-published "Twilight of the Super-Heroes" saga made use of this exact premise; in a "dark future" all the various meta-humans and their children have become so widespread that they've basically "taken over" and made regular humans an endangered species, putting the entire world at risk. No "mutants" in that, and yet the same thing happened - metahumans superseding "normals" as the dominant species.

The entire "But mutants might replace humans and that's why humans hate and fear them!" argument falls apart completely once you realize that ANY metahumans could just as well do the same thing, not just mutants. Again, if Mutants are the only ones in danger of "replacing humanity" or "dominating humanity", then WHAT exactly was the point of Squadron Supreme? Eh? Ehhhhhhh?

"Metas Might Take Over From Humans" is a good story to execute in a super-hero universe. It's logical. Making that "threat" exclusive to just mutants, however, is NOT logical.

[Galactus]

There have been arguments in the comics that carry some weight. Firstly that prejudice doesn't really make sense. In the real world people can bigoted towards certain races or ethnicities but not others. It's not that like non-mutant Marvel heroes don't face any backlash; Spider-Man, Hulk even the FF and Avengers have all faced hatred from the general public to varying degrees.

There is also the idea that a mutant can be anyone you're next door neighbor or even your own kids. I think that's one of the things the Singer movies got right making it analogous to homophobia "have you tried not being a mutant". Not to mention that there is the belief that mutants will just naturally supplant humans - again that should resonate with people who have ever heard racists bark on about the 'great replacement theory'.

Heck some writers have portrayed that anti-mutant sentiment coming almost exclusively from the incident at Cape Citadel in X-Men #1. Again the sharp spike in islamaphobia that remains to this to this day occurred after 9/11 shows that it's not such an unrealistic consequence of Magneto's actions.

Where it's always fallen down for me is that in X-Men stories super powered people regardless of whether they well known or whether they are wearing an X-uniform or not are generally immediately identified as mutants. That doesn't happen in non-X books...well there are exceptions like a brief subplot in a 90s Spider-Man title which had the Friends of Humanity target Spider-Man because they believe he's a mutant but by and large mutant issues are generally kept in the X books for creative reasons even if it doesn't complete sense in what is supposed to be shared universe.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

I'm with Leo.

Mutants and the "mainstream" Marvel universe should have been kept separate.

Anti-mutant prejudice makes zero sense in a world with the Fantastic Four, the Hulk, Spider-Man, the Avengers, Ant-Man and the Wasp, etc, etc, etc...

Average Joe on the street ain't gonna know the difference between gamma rays and the X gene, or Super Soldier Serum and the X Gene, or radioactive spiderbite and the X gene, and need I go on?

But comic crossovers gonna crossovers.


Actually, the difference is common knowledge in the MU, for the most part. As mentioned by Aqua, even guys like Spidey and the Hulk have been outcasts (though for different reasons). In Hulk's case, everyone is terrified of him getting ticked off and going berserk. Understandable. But JJ Jamison has at various points led an absolute smear campaign against Spidey, even accusing him of BEING a mutant! And even though there have been mutants- mostly X-Men- among the Avengers, those members have never been trusted like the "real heroes" of the group. Beast, Wolverine, and Wanda herself have all been Avengers, even from the early days, but they still get the general bias against mutants simply because it's the "accepted" thing to be prejudiced against them. There are literal anti-mutant hate groups like the Friends of Humanity, whose sole purpose is registration, imprisonment, and even slavery or extermination of mutantkind. That was why they even created their own country in Genosha. Mutants were originally created in the MU as a metaphor for racial oppression and bigotry in the real world, so it makes sense that they see plenty of it.

Another thing is that, while some mutants can easily pass as normal when not using their powers, others are plainly obvious as to what they are. Guys like Beast, Beak, or Nightcrawler can't even go out in public without causing a panic. But it's the ones who DO pass who cause the most fear, because, like others have said, they could literally be walking next to you on the street. And unless they are in suit or using powers, you'd never know. And that's what scares people the most- not knowing who they all are, or where they are, or what they can do. The Avengers, the FF, those are known celebs of a sort, but mutants? Might as well be a secret, well armed terrorist group.

[ZariusTwo]

_jnLIq-Wu_s

[Leo656]

Actually, the difference is common knowledge in the MU, for the most part. As mentioned by Aqua, even guys like Spidey and the Hulk have been outcasts (though for different reasons). In Hulk's case, everyone is terrified of him getting ticked off and going berserk. Understandable. But JJ Jamison has at various points led an absolute smear campaign against Spidey, even accusing him of BEING a mutant! And even though there have been mutants- mostly X-Men- among the Avengers, those members have never been trusted like the "real heroes" of the group. Beast, Wolverine, and Wanda herself have all been Avengers, even from the early days, but they still get the general bias against mutants simply because it's the "accepted" thing to be prejudiced against them. There are literal anti-mutant hate groups like the Friends of Humanity, whose sole purpose is registration, imprisonment, and even slavery or extermination of mutantkind. That was why they even created their own country in Genosha. Mutants were originally created in the MU as a metaphor for racial oppression and bigotry in the real world, so it makes sense that they see plenty of it.

Another thing is that, while some mutants can easily pass as normal when not using their powers, others are plainly obvious as to what they are. Guys like Beast, Beak, or Nightcrawler can't even go out in public without causing a panic. But it's the ones who DO pass who cause the most fear, because, like others have said, they could literally be walking next to you on the street. And unless they are in suit or using powers, you'd never know. And that's what scares people the most- not knowing who they all are, or where they are, or what they can do. The Avengers, the FF, those are known celebs of a sort, but mutants? Might as well be a secret, well armed terrorist group.

That's a ton of in-universe hoops to jump through to justify why some people who can shoot lasers are okay and others are "bad". Very silly.

It's a plot hole. Deal with it. :trazz:

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

That's a ton of in-universe hoops to jump through to justify why some people who can shoot lasers are okay and others are "bad". Very silly.

It's a plot hole. Deal with it. :trazz:

Nah, it makes perfect sense that the guy made 100% out of orange rock is okay but the guy with big' ol bird wings is terrifying.

Or why the girl who can turn invisible is fantastic but the guy who looks like the Blue Man Group crossed with a furry convention is bad news.

Or why the black guy with bulletproof skin is a hero but the stripper with psychic powers and diamond skin is terrifying.

After all, if there's one thing you can count on the General Public for, it's understanding nuance and detail when discriminating against certain classes of people!

[Jester]

I've often thought this when thinking of White Supremacists. Who counts as "White"? I know at one point Irish and Italians were out, was that because of Catholicism? And do the Spanish and Greeks count? The only group of "White People" that always seem to be A-Ok are Germans....I guess...maybe...

[neatoman]

I've often thought this when thinking of White Supremacists. Who counts as "White"? I know at one point Irish and Italians were out, was that because of Catholicism? And do the Spanish and Greeks count? The only group of "White People" that always seem to be A-Ok are Germans....I guess...maybe...

I have no idea honestly. If we're gonna talk about fictional portrayals of those people, American History X has a few scenes that seem a bit contradictory. Danny is praising Adolf Hitler in one scene but also explicitly proclaims his disdain for anyone who isn't a protestant. Which makes me wonder if the character is meant to be ignorant of the fact that Hitler was a catholic or if the script writer was.

[Leo656]

I've often thought this when thinking of White Supremacists. Who counts as "White"? I know at one point Irish and Italians were out, was that because of Catholicism? And do the Spanish and Greeks count? The only group of "White People" that always seem to be A-Ok are Germans....I guess...maybe...

Irish Catholic (lapsed). I'm trash and everybody hates me! :lol:

Except black people. Apparently, to some black people, Irish are almost like kin. "White N-words", they call us. I don't know how to feel about that, but I guess it's nice. :lol:

But yeah, at its root all of these types of prejudice are incredibly silly and fall apart with two seconds' worth of thought.

Nah, it makes perfect sense that the guy made 100% out of orange rock is okay but the guy with big' ol bird wings is terrifying.

Or why the girl who can turn invisible is fantastic but the guy who looks like the Blue Man Group crossed with a furry convention is bad news.

Or why the black guy with bulletproof skin is a hero but the stripper with psychic powers and diamond skin is terrifying.

After all, if there's one thing you can count on the General Public for, it's understanding nuance and detail when discriminating against certain classes of people!

You get an A. Have some red rope licorice. :tgrin:

[AquaParade]

I don't know, plenty of racist towards black people people probably cheer on the NBA or vis versa. It's not hard for me to imagine people praising the Avengers while not giving the benefit of the doubt to mutants for various reasons, such as propaganda or plain ignorance.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Again, though, it's the fact that mutants are a literal species of their own. As opposed to one-off guys like Hulk, Ant-Man(who is just a guy with some really high-tech gear), or Cap(military experimental serum for better performance, but otherwise normal! Basically just perfomance enhancing drugs....) who are still human, in spite of their abilities, and thus PROBABLY not likely to pass their powers on, because in most cases the abilities were just enhancements or tech-related. Some do, perhaps, but they are still a tiny minority, whereas mutants (before M-Day) numbered in the MILLIONS at one point. There was even an entire event arc about it. Post M-Day, they were reduced to only 200 left, and no more being born. And that was seen as an extinction crisis by mutants, but was being CELEBRATED by anti-mutant groups as a sign of victory over the enemy! It's a HUGE distinction, vs guys that got their powers by accident, experiment, or from a god or other entity. Heck, in-universe, it is even accepted that Thor and some other heroes ARE gods (there was even a joke about it in one Avengers issue, that damage done during a fight between Thor and a villain was classified as an "act of god" for insurance purposes) so it's not as if the people themselves aren't aware of differences. They KNOW that literal gods walk among them, and that the military and government keep tabs on ALL known powered people. It's the ones that just pop up spontaneously via mutant genes that scare them, because not only are they not a known quantity, but many have powers they can't even control! (Rogue, or Sauron, or Leech, anyone?) Others are flat out malevolent and dangerous on purpose, simply because they see themselves as superior. And then there are some that are just too powerful to allow loose, like Jean. (And mutants tend to attract odd attention from all sorts of sources, like aliens- the Shi'ar, Brood, and Phalanx- from cosmic entities- the Phoenix force and Beyonder- and supernatural beings like the Shadowman, Mephisto, and others.) Add in that they even have their own special school and their own nation, and it looks pretty scary to an average person on the street, like a conquest in the making. That was the whole point of Registration and the Sentinels. Paranoid government and militant organizations trying to forestall what they see as a future where mutants take over and oppress normals. House of M was all about a future just like that, with the House of Magneto being rulers of the world, and mutants being the elite class while normals were treated little better than slaves. And it was caused by ONE mutant- Wanda! Pretty alarming to think ONE mutant could completely remake reality on Earth like that, so is it any wonder people fear them? Or Jean, who as Phoenix has obliterated entire planets in an instant.

[Coola Yagami]

Again, though, it's the fact that mutants are a literal species of their own. As opposed to one-off guys like Hulk, Ant-Man(who is just a guy with some really high-tech gear), or Cap(military experimental serum for better performance, but otherwise normal! Basically just perfomance enhancing drugs....) who are still human, in spite of their abilities, and thus PROBABLY not likely to pass their powers on, because in most cases the abilities were just enhancements or tech-related. Some do, perhaps, but they are still a tiny minority, whereas mutants (before M-Day) numbered in the MILLIONS at one point. There was even an entire event arc about it. Post M-Day, they were reduced to only 200 left, and no more being born. And that was seen as an extinction crisis by mutants, but was being CELEBRATED by anti-mutant groups as a sign of victory over the enemy! It's a HUGE distinction, vs guys that got their powers by accident, experiment, or from a god or other entity. Heck, in-universe, it is even accepted that Thor and some other heroes ARE gods (there was even a joke about it in one Avengers issue, that damage done during a fight between Thor and a villain was classified as an "act of god" for insurance purposes) so it's not as if the people themselves aren't aware of differences. They KNOW that literal gods walk among them, and that the military and government keep tabs on ALL known powered people. It's the ones that just pop up spontaneously via mutant genes that scare them, because not only are they not a known quantity, but many have powers they can't even control! (Rogue, or Sauron, or Leech, anyone?) Others are flat out malevolent and dangerous on purpose, simply because they see themselves as superior. And then there are some that are just too powerful to allow loose, like Jean. (And mutants tend to attract odd attention from all sorts of sources, like aliens- the Shi'ar, Brood, and Phalanx- from cosmic entities- the Phoenix force and Beyonder- and supernatural beings like the Shadowman, Mephisto, and others.) Add in that they even have their own special school and their own nation, and it looks pretty scary to an average person on the street, like a conquest in the making. That was the whole point of Registration and the Sentinels. Paranoid government and militant organizations trying to forestall what they see as a future where mutants take over and oppress normals. House of M was all about a future just like that, with the House of Magneto being rulers of the world, and mutants being the elite class while normals were treated little better than slaves. And it was caused by ONE mutant- Wanda! Pretty alarming to think ONE mutant could completely remake reality on Earth like that, so is it any wonder people fear them? Or Jean, who as Phoenix has obliterated entire planets in an instant.

I think the point is, in the world that is full of mutants, who's to say Hulk isn't a mutant? Or that Spider-Man isn't a mutant? Or Rhino isn't a mutant? Hell, Juggernaut is one of the X-Men villains and he's confused for a mutant in his own series.

Normal people aren't gonna know that Hulk was a guy blasted by gamma radiation. To be honest, I think most of the world thinks Hulk is Hulk 100% of the time, only Ross and the military under him know he's some guy that they have to be ready for when he gets mad. If Banner turned into the Hulk in front of enough witnesses that alone should add fuel to the paranoia that 'anyone can be a mutant, right under your nose'.

[ZariusTwo]

Can we please focus on the show?

Episode 4:

If this were a movie, this would be the opening act. I get the first three episodes were scene-setters to establish the situation at Westview, but you really could have just started with this one. It probably would have warded off all the criticisms I've seen about the slow-burn. I think we'll be back to the sit-com format next week, but the answers will come thick and fast in less time.

I appreciate we got to see more of the grim reality of coming back from the blip also.

And, raise hands, who wanted the NWO to show up at the end? I even said "let's bring out the man" with the world's worst Eric Bischoff impersonation when that music hit

[Leo656]

Can we please focus on the show?


What're you, new? :lol::lol::lol:

[ZariusTwo]

What're you, new? :lol::lol::lol:

I got sucked into Westview:D

[MsMarvelDuckie]

I think the point is, in the world that is full of mutants, who's to say Hulk isn't a mutant? Or that Spider-Man isn't a mutant? Or Rhino isn't a mutant? Hell, Juggernaut is one of the X-Men villains and he's confused for a mutant in his own series.

Normal people aren't gonna know that Hulk was a guy blasted by gamma radiation. To be honest, I think most of the world thinks Hulk is Hulk 100% of the time, only Ross and the military under him know he's some guy that they have to be ready for when he gets mad. If Banner turned into the Hulk in front of enough witnesses that alone should add fuel to the paranoia that 'anyone can be a mutant, right under your nose'.


The thing is, m9st people DO know in the MU. The Avengers and some others like the FF get treated like celebs, the media follows them and their histories are well-known even by the general public, except in the few cases like Spidey's secret identity, and even that was revealed (and then mind-wiped) not too long ago. They get interviewed by reporters, have movies made of them in-universe, and books written about them. Most of the heroes are as well known in their personal lives as famous actors. There have been issues where this was mentioned or even focused on, so no, they really aren't ignorant of who or what guys like Banner, who HAS Hulked out in public, or Rhino, whose power comes from his suit, are. They even know which past Avengers have been mutants, mainly for that very reason of media and government digging. When Wanda and Pietro first joined, they were almost denied admission, because their status as both mutants AND criminals was well known! It was Cap who actually vouched for them, saying they deserved a chance to be redeemed. So it's been pretty well understood from the beginning that the difference is documented and tracked. It's literally JUST racial bigotry against mutants, always HAS been.

And as a last point of reference, there was even a DRUG that was made using mutant growth hormones, aka MGH, that became a threat akin to mixing steroids, meth, and ecstasy! It gave normal humans temporary powers based on the mutant the MGH came from, but the cost was that some of them came from mutants whose powers were involuntary or hard to control, or were part of their physical bodies, which led to a bunch of deaths and serious injuries.

[Coola Yagami]

And as a last point of reference, there was even a DRUG that was made using mutant growth hormones, aka MGH, that became a threat akin to mixing steroids, meth, and ecstasy! It gave normal humans temporary powers based on the mutant the MGH came from, but the cost was that some of them came from mutants whose powers were involuntary or hard to control, or were part of their physical bodies, which led to a bunch of deaths and serious injuries.

Yeah..... I would not want the Marrow MGH and def keep the Maggot MGH away from me.

[ZariusTwo]

New trailer

45Bd1nJanD0

[AquaParade]

Fourth episode: pretty good.
Satisfying revelations but a little too much exposition and groundwork being laid all at once. It was a bit exhausting by the end, probably in part because the dialogue isn't riveting enough for all the ground they have to cover. Which I admit, is a tall order.
I'm still all in on the show. Enjoying it.

[ZariusTwo]

Footage from a later episode is presently leaking on Youtube, reddit, twitter etc, so tread carefully

If you want the gist of it

It's from the one that's set around Halloween, Vision bursts through the barrier into the world outside Westview, telling S.W.O.R.D that the people inside Westview need help. Wanda's twins are now older, also the X-Films' Evan Peters does indeed show up, Wanda attacks him after he jokes about Vision dying

[Vicky82]

I've been watching it and enjoying it.

I wonder if any other Avengers will get involved in this.

Because I assume this happens round about the same time as Spiderman Far from Home. I partly remember a scene when Spiderman asking if anyone else could do the mission but end up being not available.

Thor - off world
Miss Marvel - unavailable

Can't remember if any other names mentioned though.

But i'm thinking that maybe Miss Marvel or someone else could end up appearing in Wandavision.

[Andrew NDB]

Yeah, episode 4 was a hell of a thing. Nice to see them cobble all these minor characters from Thor, Ant-Man, etc..

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Yeah..... I would not want the Marrow MGH and def keep the Maggot MGH away from me.


Lol Or Blob. Jeebus, what happened to that poor guy on M Day.... But just imagine getting Angel's MGH, and then having it wear off mid-flight! That was just one of the horrible effects that were happening. One guy turned his arm to stone, and then it got shattered or something. And wore off shortly after.... :teek:

[Coola Yagami]

Lol Or Blob. Jeebus, what happened to that poor guy on M Day.... But just imagine getting Angel's MGH, and then having it wear off mid-flight! That was just one of the horrible effects that were happening. One guy turned his arm to stone, and then it got shattered or something. And wore off shortly after.... :teek:

OMG no.

That's the one thing I always wondered about Colossus. Was his skin just flat out invincible? Like if during a fight with some super strong mutant, I got a few dents on my armor, I'd be afraid to turn back to normal form until I figured out some way to smooth those out. I don't want to know how those would 'translate' to flesh and blood.

[Andrew NDB]

So a few days ago Bettany said there's a top secret top level appearance by an actor (yes, male) on WandaVision, someone who he's always wanted to work with.

https://www.slashfilm.com/wandavision-tease-paul-bettany/

He can't be talking about Evan Peters because, well... I like the guy, but let's be honest, nobody is going around saying "I really wish I could one day work with Evan Peters!" Particularly someone like Paul Bettany.

Any over/unders from folks on who you think it'll end up being?

If we take the Evan Peters showing up on the show as a clue, which yes, you can go online and watch then... we know the Fox-Men universe is on the table. I've read a fairly recent interview with Patrick Stewart in which he admitted Feige asked him if he wanted to "come back" as Xavier and he turned him down, because of Logan, so it isn't him. Fassbender as Magneto? McKellen? The familial ties to Wanda would make sense, maybe. Though I DO recall Jackman saying in one of the many "Won't you play Wolverine again!?" dumb interviews that he WOULD play Wolverine again, as long as he could take on the Avengers. This could... kind of be that?

[ZariusTwo]

Well, as of Wandavision episode five

Peters is a 'recast' Quicksilver. Time will tell if he exhibits powers at some point next week, or if he's only there for a couple of episodes

[NinjaPug]

Well, as of Wandavision episode five

Peters is a 'recast' Quicksilver. Time will tell if he exhibits powers at some point next week, or if he's only there for a couple of episodes

Should we assume she recast QS by reaching across the multiverse to pull him in? I'm hoping that's the case and he's not a random guy and they're just using the Fox actor as a swerve.

[ZariusTwo]

Should we assume she recast QS by reaching across the multiverse to pull him in? I'm hoping that's the case and he's not a random guy and they're just using the Fox actor as a swerve.

That's why it's crucial to find out if he has powers or not next week I think...but yeah, given this series ties into the Doctor Strange sequel where the multiverse is a major factor, I can't see that being ruled out in favour of a tease

[NinjaPug]

That's why it's crucial to find out if he has powers or not next week I think...but yeah, given this series ties into the Doctor Strange sequel where the multiverse is a major factor, I can't see that being ruled out in favour of a tease

Wanda's comment about how she has a brother "far away" makes me think this is the Fox QS being pulled through the multiverse by whoever is really in control of this.

[Leo656]

So wait, after all the hullabaloo about "How is Disney gonna work in the X-Men for the MCU?"... in the end they're just gonna "swipe" them from the Fox Universe and drop them into this one?

God, I hope not. That'd be like one of the dumbest possible ways they could do that. Makes it feel like they really want the X-Men in the MCU but just don't wanna do the work of re-establishing them from the ground up all over again. "Fox already did the work, let's just use the Exact Same X-Men." Wooof.
Nah. For one thing, objectively those were some pretty crappy X-Men and the MCU reboot is a chance for a clean slate. That's what I was hoping for. There's just about nothing from the FoX-Men universe I'd wanna keep except maybe one or two actors. Maybe not even that. I'd junk absolutely everything else.

Hopefully just transplanting FoX-Men into the MCU is not what they do. But I can definitely see them doing that.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

So wait, after all the hullabaloo about "How is Disney gonna work in the X-Men for the MCU?"... in the end they're just gonna "swipe" them from the Fox Universe and drop them into this one?

God, I hope not. That'd be like one of the dumbest possible ways they could do that. Makes it feel like they really want the X-Men in the MCU but just don't wanna do the work of re-establishing them from the ground up all over again. "Fox already did the work, let's just use the Exact Same X-Men." Wooof.
Nah. For one thing, objectively those were some pretty crappy X-Men and the MCU reboot is a chance for a clean slate. That's what I was hoping for. There's just about nothing from the FoX-Men universe I'd wanna keep except maybe one or two actors. Maybe not even that. I'd junk absolutely everything else.

Hopefully just transplanting FoX-Men into the MCU is not what they do. But I can definitely see them doing that.

Absolutely agree with that. Ugh, this would be terrible.

I mean, it'd be pretty fascinating from a logistics point of view. (How little work can they put in to get their desired outcome?) But in terms of character, continuity, and story... UGH.

[Andrew NDB]

I'm not too worried about that. While they might sprinkle some Fox-Men stuff, we still have to get a proper X-Men in the MCU.

For example, if they use the Fox-Men... their last appearance was in the 1990s, in Dark Phoenix. The MCU is currently set in the year 2025 or so. Pietro and Cyclops and so on would be like 80 years old. It wouldn't work and it wouldn't be worth it to try.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

I'm not too worried about that. While they might sprinkle some Fox-Men stuff, we still have to get a proper X-Men in the MCU.

For example, if they use the Fox-Men... their last appearance was in the 1990s, in Dark Phoenix. The MCU is currently set in the year 2025 or so. Pietro and Cyclops and so on would be like 80 years old. It wouldn't work and it wouldn't be worth it to try.

Andrew, if the MCU decides to handwave things and just bring in Fox-Men in lieu of their own X-Men, they would absolutely handwave things and skip or ignore the age thing. That's a very small hurdle after the hurdle of "**** it, just bring over the Fox-Men. Don't care how you do it or if it makes sense, just do it."

Not saying it WILL happen. The MCU absolutely plays hardball and for keeps, and I can't imagine them settling for another franchise's take on characters.

But if they did, they wouldn't let a little thing like that stop them.

[neatoman]

Alright, so...
... Is it safe to assume that Evan Peters is not literally playing the version of Quicksilver as he did in the Fox movies? Like, maybe he's from an alternate reality and maybe he joined the X-Men, but at the same he did not necessarily rescue Magneto to prevent the assassination of Bolivar Trask or stop Apocalypse from nuking the world. Allegedly Alfred Molina and Jamie Foxx are not literally returning as their characters from SM2 and ASM2, just alternate universe versions of themselves.

Although...
If we assume he is indeed an alternate universe version of Pietro, why does he look different? If they are indeed reflections of the same person, they should be genetically identical and look more or less the same. Otherwise they would be different people with the same name and powers, which is weird. And if he is indeed the Fox depiction of Quicksilver, why would their backstories be so different?

Let's just assume the physical differences don't matter and that MCU Pietro is also the son of Magneto, just to minimise the problems. What about all the other differences?

Why is there a 40 age difference?
Why is one of them a twin and not the other?
Why are their nationalities different?
Why do they have different origins for their powers?

Of course...
Peters could just be some guy swept up in Wanda's fake reality just like everyone else and this is just a casting gag.

In short, I'm not so sure it's a good idea to present different adaptations as being part of a multiverse, it could easily open up a bigger can of worms than what one might initially suspect.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Alright, so...
... Is it safe to assume that Evan Peters is not literally playing the version of Quicksilver as he did in the Fox movies? Like, maybe he's from an alternate reality and maybe he joined the X-Men, but at the same he did not necessarily rescue Magneto to prevent the assassination of Bolivar Trask or stop Apocalypse from nuking the world. Allegedly Alfred Molina and Jamie Foxx are not literally returning as their characters from SM2 and ASM2, just alternate universe versions of themselves.

Although...
If we assume he is indeed an alternate universe version of Pietro, why does he look different? If they are indeed reflections of the same person, they should be genetically identical and look more or less the same. Otherwise they would be different people with the same name and powers, which is weird. And if he is indeed the Fox depiction of Quicksilver, why would their backstories be so different?

Let's just assume the physical differences don't matter and that MCU Pietro is also the son of Magneto, just to minimise the problems. What about all the other differences?

Why is there a 40 age difference?
Why is one of them a twin and not the other?
Why are their nationalities different?
Why do they have different origins for their powers?

Of course...
Peters could just be some guy swept up in Wanda's fake reality just like everyone else and this is just a casting gag.

In short, I'm not so sure it's a good idea to present different adaptations as being part of a multiverse, it could easily open up a bigger can of worms than what one might initially suspect.

Hoping for casting gag. It'd make the most sense.

But it also makes you wonder why Marvel decided to screw over the REAL guy. You know who.

[Autbot_Benz]

Hoping for casting gag. It'd make the most sense.

But it also makes you wonder why Marvel decided to screw over the REAL guy. You know who.

Easy Aaron Taylor Johnson was forgettable as Quicksilver Evan Peters stole the show in the fox-men films he was in. Well that's my opinion anyway :lol:

[Andrew NDB]

Also, are we sure we can even rule out Ryan Reynolds for this? If Evan Peters is popping up... why couldn't Deadpool? In fact, this could even be the "why" and "the how" of how Deadpool crosses the breech into the MCU.

I could see Bettany meaning Reynolds when he said "he finally got to work with someone he's always wanted to work with."

[neatoman]

"This isn't a big deal"
"Excuse me?"
"Well, didn't Bruce Banner and Jim Rhodes look different before as well?"
"... No...."

[AquaParade]

That. Was. Awesome.
Only nitpick was the baby crying for an entire five minutes at the start. That with the laugh track made it nearly unbearable.

Sometimes it feels like with each episode, we are repeating ourselves and the "remember how corny/bad these old shows were?" schtick grows old, but the payoff is pretty much always worth it. Tonight's episode especially. So much fun for someone who has been watching comic book movies all their life.

[neatoman]

I think I figured out the least confusing explaination.

"Pietro" is not from the Fox Universe, any other alternate universe or even a literal recast. If I am correct, it is a hint that Wanda simply can't bring the dead back no matter how hard she tries. So, instead of bringing Pietro back, she does the next best thing transplants Pietro's persona onto some random guy. This would work in with the obvious implication that Vision, Billy and Tommy aren't entirely real either.

[TigerClaw]

I think I figured out the least confusing explaination.

"Pietro" is not from the Fox Universe, any other alternate universe or even a literal recast. If I am correct, it is a hint that Wanda simply can't bring the dead back no matter how hard she tries. So, instead of bringing Pietro back, she does the next best thing transplants Pietro's persona onto some random guy. This would work in with the obvious implication that Vision, Billy and Tommy aren't entirely real either.
I think that Quicksilver is from the Fox X-Men universe but under mind control. This is setting up the multiverse so you can see characters from other marvel universes show up in some way.

Episode 5 is a gamechanger.

[Andrew NDB]

Episode 5 is a gamechanger.

Not really. We've known there is a MCU multiverse since the professor Thor guy drew up those big graphs 10 years ago.

[AquaParade]

In hindsight, it's likely that the J. Jonah Jameson we saw in Far From Home has been brought over from the Raimi universe. This show takes place before Far From Home and we know it will have effects on the rest of the MCU.

[Leo656]

Easy Aaron Taylor Johnson was forgettable as Quicksilver Evan Peters stole the show in the fox-men films he was in. Well that's my opinion anyway :lol:

I know I'm in the minority but I disagree with this. I would've liked to see more of the Quicksilver from "Age of Ultron", who was blatantly killed off just to give an "F-You" to Fox, in one of the pettiest moves Disney's ever done.

There was nothing "wrong" with the guy from the FoX-Men movies, but... he wasn't a "character", he was a set piece. It was a cool set piece, but... that was his only function and they told the same "joke" twice. I feel like his whole bit was kind of overrated in general. Like, the actor gets a ton of credit for what was essentially the director, cinematographer and set designer's job. Literally anybody could've done that scene and "gotten over" the exact same way. Nothing against the guy at all, but c'mon. With that much "ga-ga" it would be asinine if those scenes DIDN'T "steal the show". Let's just be honest, y'know?

It's like having Hulk Hogan come out with Shaquille O'Neal and Mr. T and wrestle Ric Flair in Orlando, about a half hour from Hogan's house. Of course the crowd went nuts, that was the entire design of it and the setup left nothing to chance. "Good job doin' what you're supposed to do!" :lol:

------------

It's looking more and more like Marvel's just gonna transplant characters from other Marvel movie universes at their leisure so they don't have to do any work to re-establish their own versions. "You want a Goblin? Have the one from 20 years ago! You guys want X-Men? Well thank goodness Fox already gave us some!" And so on.

I mean, maybe they won't, but we'll see. I have very little faith in the company whose sole business model right now is "CGI/Live Action remakes of movies from 30+ years ago" to actually, y'know... work hard. I mean, why cast a new Wolverine when they can buy Hugh Jackman a solid gold house to get him back?

I'unno. Seems like fan-wank gone amuck, to me. Cameos are fine (although I'm generally not a fan of that kinda thing, either, I find it distracting and masturbatory), but I'd rather they recast and do their own versions of these characters rather than just cherry-pick them in from another "universe".

I mean, we'll see what happens, obviously, but it kinda seems like that's what they're gonna end up doing.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

I know I'm in the minority but I disagree with this. I would've liked to see more of the Quicksilver from "Age of Ultron", who was blatantly killed off just to give an "F-You" to Fox, in one of the pettiest moves Disney's ever done.

Yeah, I prefer Aaron Taylor Johnson myself. Evan Peters had the better action scenes, but as a character, he was too goofy. Don't want to see more of him.

It's looking more and more like Marvel's just gonna transplant characters from other Marvel movie universes at their leisure so they don't have to do any work to re-establish their own versions. "You want a Goblin? Have the one from 20 years ago! You guys want X-Men? Well thank goodness Fox already gave us some!" And so on.

Oh ****, I forgot about all the actors being brought back for Spider-Man 3. For ****'s sake, this is absolutely what they're doing, isn't it?

Why risk casting new actors when they can just bring in fan favorites now that Disney has the rights again?

[Leo656]

I mean, even at their best, that's what they do. The entire Disney brand was built on serving people re-heated, polished-up versions of things that had already been around and popular for sometimes hundreds of years. "New and Original" ain't what they do, never was and never will be. They "borrow" other people's stuff and re-sell it at a mark-up.

There has never been an ounce of original thought in the Mouse House. Why expect them to change now when the hard work has already been done?

Any day now, expect them to bring Patrick Stewart in for a long weekend to film a bunch of Prof. X stock footage, and to sign a contract stating that they get to CGI his face into every future X-Men movie for perpetuity. You heard it here first.

[AquaParade]

I don't mind seeing more characters pulled over if we also get to see a brand new X-Men team, built from the ground up for the MCU. I think we will, but who knows.

I thought Aaron Johnson's Quicksilver was dull. He was in a pretty cruddy movie in that case, but I've never really enjoyed him in any role, if I'm being honest. Evan Peter's has a fun on-screen personality. I can imagine it wearing thin for some but I like it.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Ok, so.... Wow. That was unexpected, but worth the "hype". Not just the part at the end, but Wanda's confrontation with her own grief, and everything dealing with the dog and Vision. I think there is a hint there. Wanda's power is basically reality warping, bending the very fabric of the universe to her will, and yes, that includes creating or even recreating what does not exist or is gone. So her speech to the boys about not being able to reverse death no matter how much we want, was her coming to terms with having done just that with Vision. And that was with his body available. With Pietro, there was no body to use, so she subconsciously did the next best thing and yoinked him across the multiverse. Which opens the door for others to follow, perhaps. Keep in mind, Wanda is one of a very few "Omega" mutants, so her power literally rivals the Reality Stone!

[ZariusTwo]

Any day now, expect them to bring Patrick Stewart in for a long weekend to film a bunch of Prof. X stock footage, and to sign a contract stating that they get to CGI his face into every future X-Men movie for perpetuity. You heard it here first.

Source: Rik Johnson.:P

[ZariusTwo]

Darcy and Jimmy Woo spin-off being pitched

https://twitter.com/StephenSeanFord/status/1357847408789495808

[Andrew NDB]

Darcy and Jimmy Woo spin-off being pitched

https://twitter.com/StephenSeanFord/status/1357847408789495808

OK. I'd watch.

[neatoman]

Darcy and Jimmy Woo spin-off being pitched

https://twitter.com/StephenSeanFord/status/1357847408789495808

X-Files like? How does that work in the MCU? In X-Files the agents investigate the paranormal. In the Marvel Universe, Aliens, Ghosts, Witches, Vampires, Swamp Monsters, Trolls, Dwarves, Rock People, Demons, Super AI, Radiactive Monsters, Government Experiments, Mutants, Gods, Reality Warping and Duck People are common enough to just be considered normal.

[TigerClaw]

Darcy and Jimmy Woo spin-off being pitched

https://twitter.com/StephenSeanFord/status/1357847408789495808
Jimmy Woo actually lead a team in the comics called Agents of Atlas.
https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Agents_of_Atlas_(Earth-616)

https://terrigen-cdn-dev.marvel.com/content/prod/1x/aoatlas2019001_dc11.jpg

[Galactus]

^^^

That was a neat little book but I prefer the original incarnation of the Agents of Atlas.

If they want you could have Darcy help them (because I love Kat Dennings) and maybe a few of the modern members can join them later but I'd love an Agents of Atlas that was about the original lineup.

[Allio]

Only thing I read of Atlas is the Aero ongoing. It’s good if you enjoy Manwha.

I do hope that Wandavision sticks the landing, could easily be one of MCU’s best stories

[TigerClaw]

I heard Agents of Atlas originally had an all Asian team. With Shang-Chi coming to the MCU. He can join the team.

[Galactus]

Agents of Atlas started with an issue of What If.. In this case what if the Avengers in the 1950s and it used heroes from when the Marvel was known as Atlas comics.

An issue of Avengers Forever mini series kinda hinted that the team actually existed in the main Marvel Universe.

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/scale_medium/11/117763/3206815-whatif.jpg

In the 2000s the book was launched around the premise the group operated briefly in the 50s and Jimmy Woo revived them in the present day.

https://i0.wp.com/nerdsonearth.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/atlantis-attacks-1-spoilers-1.jpg?w=1041&ssl=1

[ZariusTwo]

Wasn't 'feeling' this one.

Easter eggs and teases are nice, but there's too much in the way of escalation without answers. Monica gaining her powers through hex magic is an interesting angle, and I wonder if this is how mutants in the MCU are ultimately created? Could Darcie gain powers even now that she's in the bubble?

[Andrew NDB]

Wasn't 'feeling' this one.

Easter eggs and teases are nice, but there's too much in the way of escalation without answers. Monica gaining her powers through hex magic is an interesting angle, and I wonder if this is how mutants in the MCU are ultimately created? Could Darcie gain powers even now that she's in the bubble?

I think this will just tease Wanda's -- and others' -- further adventures into the multiverse to come (in Doctor Strange, and whatever happens with Spider-Man in part 3), not some kind of "This is how we're bringing in the X-Men and mutants."

Though Pietro "remembering" his death as the other Pietro, even becoming temporarily a bullet riddled corpse... kind of suggests it's not really the Fox-Men Pietro.

[neatoman]

Though Pietro "remembering" his death as the other Pietro, even becoming temporarily a bullet riddled corpse... kind of suggests it's not really the Fox-Men Pietro.

There is an alleged leak that states...
... that when he's freed from Wanda's control, he'll mention something about being from a place where "there are more of us"...
... but I don't put much stock in the validitity of that.

[ZariusTwo]

Episode 7

Monica's powers have been fully triggered as she reenters Westview, and Agnes is revealed as Agatha Harkness and is the one pulling all the strings...and gets a catchy song to accompany the montage of all her mischief so far. There are catacombs under Agatha's house.

Vision quickly snaps Darcie out of Wanda's spell, but find their way back to the house blocked by traffic lights, roadworks, and school children. Vision gets bored and eventually flies back home.

I was wondering why Evan Peters was credited when he didn't appear in the episode...but then he turns up in the show's first mid-credits scene!

I did laugh at the aerospace contact being a big ol' nothing burger, but when your best gag is due to pranking your audience in media hype interviews, that's saying something.

Vision's whole journey to uncovering the serious goings on at Westview,, as well as Darcie's own journey, is side-lined by unnecessary and unfunny gags that are typical of the bog-standard MCU comedy formula. Vision should have flown himself and Darcie straight to the house from the outset. Such insulting writing both for the intelligence of the characters and the audience

[Andrew NDB]

That sounds lame.

[neatoman]

Seems like "Pietro" might just be an illusion cast by Agatha.

[neatoman]

I realised another thing here. If Hayward wants to use Vision as a weapon, and he has already done extensive research on him, does this imply they'll create the Sentinels from reverse-engineering Vision? He sure as hell don't seem to like the "Enhanched" very much, so it does seem like he would fund something like that.

[TigerClaw]

I'm surprise nobody mention this one thing in the episode.
Agatha was the one who killed Sparky the dog.

[Andrew NDB]

I'm surprise nobody mention this one thing in the episode.
Agatha was the one who killed Sparky the dog.

Nobody cares about that.

I realised another thing here. If Hayward wants to use Vision as a weapon, and he has already done extensive research on him, does this imply they'll create the Sentinels from reverse-engineering Vision? He sure as hell don't seem to like the "Enhanched" very much, so it does seem like he would fund something like that.

Interesting thought. Maybe.

[Andrew NDB]

Episode 8... disappointing. It was almost an hour but didn't feel like it. We got a tiny bit of Agatha's backstory and a trip down memory lane with Wanda that told us nothing we didn't already know except maybe that she already had some powers pre-HYDRA volunteering... also that she maybe does have the power to bring back the dead... maybe. I think the main purpose to the episode was just Wanda getting her Scarlet Witch name. According to Agatha she is like a prophesied uber powerful witch.

I kept waiting for... something. Anything. Like maybe oops, she was adopted, or oops, here's a Magneto appearance. There really isn't anything to get excited about.

There is an after credits thing. Vision is brought back online by SWORD.

[ZariusTwo]

Today's episode was alright, I'm glad it gave us some answers after a couple of unimpressive weeks, more questions linger though, and I feel like they're not going to tie it up satisfactorily next week.

Agatha realises Wanda has always been able to tap into chaos hex magic, and finally gives her the title of the Scarlet Witch., which was corny and camp, some things just should not be allowed to filter into the MCU no matter how iconic they are to the comics.

Mid-credits reveal S.W.O.R.D bring Vision back online to use as a weapon, and he's a clear white, much like he was in the comics after being reassembled. I personally had flashbacks to the SEGA Avengers video game from my childhood which uses that version of the character

[neatoman]

Alright, here are some thoughts:
Considering that Wanda always had powers, we can assume Pietro did as well. It seems unlikely that the Mind Stone, which has the property of altering minds, would give someone Super Speed. Which would basically mean they have to be mutants.
Or experiments by the High Evolutionary but I think everyone hates that retcon, considering it was probably forced by Perlmutter and kind of ****s over their main source of dramatic tension. I seriously doubt anyone even wants to use that version of the origin.

Also, a few more things.
Interesting that Wanda's parents are explicitly not named Django and Marya. Not sure why they felt the need to change that. Is it one of those things where it's meant to fool people familiar with the material? If it's meant to imply they're adopted, it's not a good indicator of that.
My previous theories, that Pietro is just an illusion or some guy who has been brainwashed, seems to be somewhat correct. I guess he could be from an alternate universe counterpart but Agatha explicitly mentions that taking a body from europe would be difficult, I don't understand why it would be easier to tap into an alternate reality.
I'm guessing the implication with the Mind Stone, and why I suspect Wanda is a mutant, is that it merely removed Wanda's inhibitions rather than change anything? It's ambigious as to what actually happened. This is what I also think happened to Pietro, his powers were always there, he just had inhibitions that prevented him from moving at the extreme speeds.

Also...
... Yup, people sure are coming back to life alright. I kind of hoped that the MCU would never last long enough to start the revolving door of death thing, but I guess it did. Can't wait to see others come back to life...

[AquaParade]

That episode did not click with me. Way too much time spent with Agatha doling out exposition.
All that sarcasm coming from Agatha, with the zomebie/trance-like replies from Wanda just felt like they were going on forever.
A couple of the flashbacks were effective and the post-credit scene was intriguing, but that was the worst episode so far, for me. Still, looking forward to next week.

[CyberCubed]

So after watching this, is Agents of Shield worth watching? I know it has over 100+ episodes so I'm wondering if it's worth the investment.

[sdp]

So after watching this, is Agents of Shield worth watching? I know it has over 100+ episodes so I'm wondering if it's worth the investment.

It's non-canon

[AquaParade]

It's non-canon

You're non-canon.

Jk.

I heard the Ghost Rider episodes were pretty cool, but I haven't been very interested in the show itself.

[CyberCubed]

Yeah I don't care if it's canon or not, but just wondering.

[ZariusTwo]

So after watching this, is Agents of Shield worth watching? I know it has over 100+ episodes so I'm wondering if it's worth the investment.

It had an incredible tie-in with the Winter Soldier in it's first season, and proceeded to be pointless filler every other season. It's audience gradually dwindled 'till only 'shippers were watching it.

[Andrew NDB]

I heard the Ghost Rider episodes were pretty cool, but I haven't been very interested in the show itself.

The Ghost Rider episodes where when the show was already on the decline. Season 3 was the best.

[ZariusTwo]

The finale run time is said to be 50 minutes plus credits. That likely means just 40 minutes for the overall thing.

Yeah, I think this would have been a far better direct-to-stream movie than something episodic. A lot of this just isn't going to age well, as much as I was raving about it at one point, I now find my mind changing a lot on it. Once the novelty wears off and everything's answered, this latest theme park ride feels hollow and nothing of value has really been learned or gained. All the interesting bits have just been teases. The sitcom sequences should have been better integrated with the perspectives outside of Westview. How Monica gets her powers also feels very lazily inserted.

Doesn't help most of the acting is phoned in or atrocious.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

I don't think it would have worked as well as a movie, given the nature of the episodes all being different, and the literal sitcom "epeisodes" featured as the premise of how she created the world to work. Darcy and Wu even made mention of that quirk of her pocket world, that it was being broadcast as if it were an actual show. A movie would have made that entire concept harder to accept, and be more jarringly disconnected in the flow.

[ZariusTwo]

Knew the MCU would **** the bed again after the last couple of weeks. Why people honestly still go to bat them for continuously insulting their intelligence is beyond me.

Once again, the time honoured traditions of these things turning out to be nothing but trailers for the next thing continue...I don't care about Captain Marvel 2 or Secret Invasion hints as they're years away.

Really annoyed at how little a role the supporting cast all played at the end. Monica saves the kids from a few bullets, sure, Jimmy calls in Quantico and all see are a bunch of vans pull up. Darcie only gets one scene and ONE line...and then that's it, she's not even in the debriefing in the mid-credits scene, just referenced.

They sure were 'dicks' with that 'Boner' joke...Futurama did this better with the I.C Weiner in their pilot. And Bonner's one weakness is Lisa Simpson's beads?

So I like the set up of the kids being put to bed and you get this forboding sense of dread that this is a neat'n'clean way of handling their death...but then we hear them cry out for help at the end, indicating their souls are still alive. I'm not too familair with Children's Crusade which brought them back, is there a connection to that storyline here?

Agatha is another jabronie MCU villain,...we don't find out who she's working for or what her motivations truly are for wanting all the power Wanda possesses (unless it's "power for it's own sake") , there's no other agenda, and it's the finale yet she's still horribly vague in describing what Wanda has unleashed.

The best thing about the episode was the Vision on Vision clash...lots of tightly paced action that ends with a clever philosophical solution that sets up Vision for future appearances

[Andrew NDB]

I'm moooostly satisfied with the bigger plot points.

But...

* So "Fietro"... we're not even going to get into him at all? Was he plucked from another universe, or was the actor just coincidence? Someone in the town just happened to look exactly like the actor that plays Pietro in the Singerverse, then (for now)? Nothing. Lame. I'd kind of rather they just not have had him at all, then.

* All the Vision stuff and no big payoff at the end. So the payoff in... something else? Mmmmh.

* Wanda realizes she can bring people back from the dead... but doesn't actually bring anybody back from the dead?

* Agatha goes back to being Agnes the prying neighbor... but in what? The actual town with the Wanda altered reality removed where she doesn't have a house? So basically... just a confused homeless person? We needed one more scene at the end with her.

* No Mephisto, no deals with Mephisto, no bringing back real Pietro, no full on reveals of other universes (the Fox-Men, etc.) but not even small stuff with even middling clarity? Lame!

* Darcy! Wow. A brief momentary cameo this episode and that's it for her. No payoff or big final moment of any kind. She was just there. Randall Park's character gets only slightly more service here.



Yeah. Mostly this whole miniseries does seem like they had their rough plans for Doctor Strange 2 a while back and then built this as a runway of an afterthought to get to it. Probably this whole series will get barely 2 minutes of screentime's acknowledgement in the movie as it gets going in the first act. Doctor Strange will find her or vice versa and off they go on their adventure.

And yes, the nod to Secret Invasion. We all knew that was coming. But that was tacked on during the brainstorming of the former, for sure. Now we're going to get the Disney+ version of The Defenders, basically. Maybe with a handful of MCU A listers at least as cameos.

And if they run into Vision in Strange 2, probably a line or two about "I'm feeling much better now" and that's it.

[neatoman]

Is anyone else happy this show gave us a Bohner?
But yeah, the twist sucks. I know it's probably the least confusing thing they could have done and I suspected that was where they were going, but still.

Anyway death is cheap.
I'm not sure how to feel about Vision being restored. On one hand, it does kind of cheapen his death in Infinity War a bit, even if it was kind of pointless there. On the other hand, Endgame is sort of the start of the questionable elements of the comics ending up in the movies. That is to say, the parts that are really only there to restore aspects of the status quo. In many ways, the MCU has lasted so long this sort of thing was bound to creep in.

[Andrew NDB]

Again, I never even wondered if Vision would survive Infinity War. They told us he would probably be OK without the stone in the same movie, even. I fully expected him to be in Endgame in a slightly weakened state... so that "Wandavision" now both presents him as DEAD dead and then with a convoluted resurrection seems both unnecessary and... odd, I guess?

But like... Endgame. He could have been there with Tony and everybody after the 5 year gap. Quick line about "If only Shuri could bring back Wanda like she brought me back" and I wouldn't have even winced. Shuri was like 10 seconds away from saving him anyway before Thanos' guard came in, let alone had she had 5 years to spare on the matter. I mean, yeah, Thanos ripped out the stone pretty messily, but that never struck me as the end of the world for him.

[AquaParade]

I really loved the parting words from "fake vision" - "...Who knows what I might be next?"

Other then that, I thought it was pretty darn good, but not amazing. I think the show peaked mid-season, but I enjoyed it all the way through.

[CyberCubed]

The scenes putting the kids to bed if they died permanently would have been the best part of the episode. I know she only knew her kids for what...a week (?) and they aged up fast, but to her, they seemed real.

I'm glad she has the Scarlett Witch costume now. I do wonder if they can make her a villain even if she gets redeemed as usual.

[neatoman]

Why exactly would she become a villain right now? Like yeah sure, Agatha said "Something something prophecy, Something something destroy the world" but what motive would she have for doing it ASAP? What, is she just gonna join the Brotherhood and crash Asteroid M into earth the next time she shows up?

[CyberCubed]

The Scarlet Witch always dabbles in villainy for awhile, even if she's not really evil. She'll definitely be used as an "enemy" against the Avengers for at least a movie at some point.

[Andrew NDB]

I'm glad she has the Scarlett Witch costume now. I do wonder if they can make her a villain even if she gets redeemed as usual.

People keep saying this, and they probably will to some extent. Probably to a lesser degree in Dr. Strange 2 and that'll be that. I don't see her as ending up like the over-arching villain for Phase 4 or anything. Maybe she causes some trouble with the X-Men or something.

Also, I've been hearing a lot that maybe the plans they had for the finale were thwarted by COVID. Like, that's about when they got shut down, and getting people like Kat Dennings back wasn't possible when they resumed (hence the bit of dodgy "face" work when she rams the SWORD guy with her vehicle, and that "Darcy Stunt Double" is credited).

[CyberCubed]

Is Elizabeth Olsen now more popular than Mary-kate and Ashley? Probably not in their prime, but she's getting there.

[SS Kakarot]

Watched this every week and saw the finale yesterday. Gotta say, I did not enjoy it all. :ohwell:

I don't understand the hype and all the positive reactions this series got. I really like (most of) the MCU movies, but this... no words. :lol:

Maybe it's just me, but I'm glad this is over. I hope Falcon & The Winter Soldier will be much, much better! :D

[TigerClaw]

Is Elizabeth Olsen now more popular than Mary-kate and Ashley? Probably not in their prime, but she's getting there.
She's way more talented then they are. All the Olsen Twins got was a TV show and they haven't done anything relevant since then. Meanwhile Elizabeth Olsen is doing extremely well with her acting gigs, and being a part of one of the biggest comic movie franchises in history.

[CyberCubed]

Watched this every week and saw the finale yesterday. Gotta say, I did not enjoy it all. :ohwell:

I don't understand the hype and all the positive reactions this series got. I really like (most of) the MCU movies, but this... no words. :lol:

Maybe it's just me, but I'm glad this is over. I hope Falcon & The Winter Soldier will be much, much better! :D

I thought all the sit-com stuff was very funny. I'm surprised how much they nailed the 50's, 60/70's and 80's time periods. Everything with the way the characters looked and acted was spot on.

I honestly felt like I was traveling through time watching it. I somehow was nostalgic for decades I never even lived in.

[ZariusTwo]

somehow was nostalgic for decades I never even lived in.

Just shows you that you don't know s*it about those sitcoms then. They didn't 'nail' them at all, and the acting was atrocious

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Actually, he's not really wrong. I was getting some very strong "I Love Lucy/Leave It to Beaver" vibes off of the first episode, along with some Bewitched, Brady Bunch, Partridge Family, and a few others off of the second and third ones. The 80's era one was very Family Ties. Each episode was very reminiscent of shows of its era, with a heavy dose of Twilight Zone or Tales From the Dark Side sprinkled in. Loved that aspect, which seemed to keep going right up to the current time, almost like Wanda was living completely through the shows she remembered from her childhood.

[IMJ]

The could still pay off the Quicksilver thing in Dr. Strange by revealing that Agatha used that particular guy because she felt through the multi-verse that he is the Quicksilver of another universe.

I mean that's the short of it, but there are ways. It is pretty ridiculous to go the route they went though, but overall the show was really good.

[Andrew NDB]

My review... as a puppet!

Ih1LueXTJEU

[Autbot_Benz]

Doctor Strange was written out of Wandavision

The mysterious "commercials" for fictional products like Toast Mate, the Strücker Watch, and Hydra Soak were initially intended as messages to Wanda from Strange, as the good Doctor tried to pierce her illusionary sitcom reality. Marvel even finalized a deal with Cumberbatch to appear in the season's final episode.

https://movieweb.com/doctor-strange-not-in-wandavision-explained/

[Andrew NDB]

Marvel has apparently gone in and altered the finale post credit scene. Possibly adding Dr. Strange (kind of)?

https://www.comingsoon.net/tv/news/1180320-wandavision-finale-post-credit-scene-altered

[AquaParade]

Has anyone picked up the bootleg blu ray releases of these? Considering doing that. Pretty easy to find with a search.

[IMJ]

So weird. They've done this now and again on a few films. Maybe even more often than most people know.

I wonder how long it will be before people forget the theatrical "girl power" scene in Endgame where they had all of the girl heroes run at the camera? Flailing their arms around like a 7 Meter titan from Attack on Titan. It was a horrible shot - it was so forced and several of them were all smiling like it was a group of grammar school kids doing something exciting. They were even standing there for a moment and then all took off running and you could totally recognize the instant the Director shouted "action". Took you out of the movie completely.

There was also a shot in Infinity War that they changed on DVD as well. The fight on Titan had a moment in theaters where Spider-Man grabs the Gauntlet off of Thanos' hand and he sort of wiggles his fingers spastically grabbing at it; but on home video he just snatches it. It was a weird thing to change.

[Slade]

So weird. They've done this now and again on a few films. Maybe even more often than most people know.

I wonder how long it will be before people forget the theatrical "girl power" scene in Endgame where they had all of the girl heroes run at the camera? Flailing their arms around like a 7 Meter titan from Attack on Titan. It was a horrible shot - it was so forced and several of them were all smiling like it was a group of grammar school kids doing something exciting. They were even standing there for a moment and then all took off running and you could totally recognize the instant the Director shouted "action". Took you out of the movie completely.

There was also a shot in Infinity War that they changed on DVD as well. The fight on Titan had a moment in theaters where Spider-Man grabs the Gauntlet off of Thanos' hand and he sort of wiggles his fingers spastically grabbing at it; but on home video he just snatches it. It was a weird thing to change.

:roll: my ole lady even let out a "ugh" at that moment in the theater.

I'll have to check my copy, but I feel like mine has Spider-Man doing that.

[AquaParade]

That scene was goofy.

I think they were trying to recapture the "She's not alone" scene from Infinity War (which actually worked really well for me), but it was too much in this instance. Just one of many goofy-ass moments in Endgame. There are a lot of fun moments to balance it out though. That movie is like...a big mess that you just have to dive headfirst into to enjoy. There is a lot to like, if you just go with it, but there's a lot you can justifiably get hung up on.

[CyberCubed]

I only saw the Endgame movies once in theaters and don't remember much outside the few big key moments. I wonder if I should rewatch them.

[AquaParade]

Infinity War is paced really well and flies by. I think the initial "invasion" scene that has Iron Man and Spidey teaming up with Dr Strange is a blast. Really well executed spectacle and fun character moments.

Endgame holds together surprisingly well for all that it is tasked with. I could nitpick it all day, but there are bunch of awesome scenes, like Thanos being decapitated, the cinematography and choreography of Ronin' introduction, Captain America with the hammer. You have to go into it like a big arena concert and just enjoy all the pay-off.
That's not me trying to excuse it, it's just my way of enjoying it. And it's not mental gymnastics, because you wont catch me anywhere near at least half the Marvel movies - just dont enjoy them. But Endgame, I do like, despite the flaws.

[ZariusTwo]

The show has won two emmys.

Outstanding Production Design For A Narrative Program

Outstanding Fantasy/Sci-Fi Costumes

https://deadline.com/2021/09/wandavision-wins-first-emmys-for-marvel-studios-1234831339/

[ZariusTwo]

Agatha spin-off coming to Disney+

https://variety.com/2021/tv/news/wandavision-spinoff-kathryn-hahn-1235082445/

[Dpooly84]

There finally releasing a steel book for the show! But it doesn't include any disc's? What's the f'n point? Give me disc's and I'll buy every show and disney has a chance to recoup money. No disc's is just stupid.

[Coola Yagami]

There finally releasing a steel book for the show! But it doesn't include any disc's? What's the f'n point? Give me disc's and I'll buy every show and disney has a chance to recoup money. No disc's is just stupid.

So is it like an empty steelbook with a download code inside it or something?

[Dpooly84]

So is it like an empty steelbook with a download code inside it or something?

From what I've read, I don't even know if there's gonna be a code. It has like promo items included. I'm honestly hoping they just jumped the gun, and there will be a physical copy available.

[Dpooly84]

That's from comicbookmovie.com

[Autbot_Benz]

Disney/Marvel themselves aren't releasing the steelbook its a 3rd party company called Manta Labs

[Dpooly84]

Disney/Marvel themselves aren't releasing the steelbook its a 3rd party company called Manta Labs

I didn't catch that but why no disc's

[sdp]

I didn't catch that but why no disc's

They're testing the market, including discs would literally cost them a penny but that's a niche market nowadays and has been for years. It can still be profitable but it's not worth the time and effort for companies to bother with.
This is clearly an attempt to find a new market so that people can buy a representation of the shows/movies they love on their shelves even if they consume them digitally. This is clearly not the right format, it's still going to sell out because of its limited collectors run. But eventually one of these ideas will click with consumers.

[Autbot_Benz]

Wandavision is coming to Blu Ray and 4k UHD Steelbook on November 28th with discs

https://i.imgur.com/d6IO3FD.jpg

[TheCanadiandrome]

I hope this comes back, yet at the same time, what more could they do with it?

[Andrew NDB]

I hope this comes back, yet at the same time, what more could they do with it?

Wanda finding the new Vision and getting him back to normal, I guess.

[TheCanadiandrome]

Wanda finding the new Vision and getting him back to normal, I guess.

Two maybe three episodes tops, and that’s generous. I don’t see that being a whole season