What is the obsession with TMNT creators adding in a 5th turtle?

[superstaff]

I wasn't sure whether to put this here or at the movie section since this issue seems to crop up mostly in the movies (but also in TV and comics, as I will discuss below).

But I was just watching this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0X6nWfi6wo) from THE OLD TURTLE DEN, on a Hallmark movie from the early 2000s that got scrapped. One of the things that caught my attention was that the twist in this film was going to be that the Shredder was, in fact, a long lost brother of the TMNT. A 'fifth' turtle, as you will.

It's a concept that's been forced into the franchise, time and time again. Sometimes it gets rejected like with Kirby, the turtle Shredder, and others they've planned to put into a movie in the past. Then there's the times they've actually managed to canonize it, like with Venus in The Next Mutation and Jennika in the IDW comics.

I've seen some people here regard the concept with disdain, and I can't disagree. I've never seen them do this concept right. It just comes off as lame, hokey, and awkward. For instance, how would a Shredder turtle work? I guess you'd need to completely re-write their backstories, not just for the TMNT but also Splinter. How would such an arc end? Would Shredder turtle join them, and seek redemption? Would they kill him? Does he die? How would this affect their group? It's...strange to think about, and I honestly wonder if the creatives behind that project actually thought this through.

I'd really like to see people's thoughts on this concept. Do you like the idea of a fifth turtle? How would it be able to work, if at all?

[Leo656]

Lack of creativity, masquerading as creativity.

I personally feel there's no "good" way to do it, just ways that are "less-bad".

Between the four "archetypes" each of the Turtles represent, add them all together and you have One Well-Rounded Person. The balance of personalities is pretty evenly-split; while not to say they're each in any way one-dimensional (or shouldn't be, at least), each one is distinctively "The Smart One", "The Funny One", "The Hothead", "The Leader"... what would a fifth one be? "The Funny Smart One"? The "Angry Funny One"? All the bases are already covered, another would just a combination of traits, an amalgamation of two of the others. It wouldn't feel organic. Venus on "The Next Mutation" tried to skate by as "The Naive One", but in truth was just "The Annoying One", so that didn't work either. Thus far, there hasn't been a single attempt that didn't feel forced and tacked-on.

It's a bad idea, best left to the imaginations of first-graders at scribble-time. Because that's what it always comes off feeling like. "I wanna be a Ninja Turtle, toooo! I'mma make up my own and stick him/her in there with the others, and it'll be coooool!"

It ain't cool. It's dumb. It will never NOT be dumb.

[The Deadman]

It's a concept that's been forced into the franchise, time and time again. Sometimes it gets rejected like with Kirby, the turtle Shredder, and others they've planned to put into a movie in the past. Then there's the times they've actually managed to canonize it, like with Venus in The Next Mutation and Jennika in the IDW comics.


Well it's not really being forced if it's only been successful twice.

[Leo656]

It's been executed twice.

Whether either attempt has been "successful", well... mileage varies.

[mrmaczaps]

Lack of creativity, masquerading as creativity.

I personally feel there's no "good" way to do it, just ways that are "less-bad".

Between the four "archetypes" each of the Turtles represent, add them all together and you have One Well-Rounded Person. The balance of personalities is pretty evenly-split; while not to say they're each in any way one-dimensional (or shouldn't be, at least), each one is distinctively "The Smart One", "The Funny One", "The Hothead", "The Leader"... what would a fifth one be? "The Funny Smart One"? The "Angry Funny One"? All the bases are already covered, another would just a combination of traits, an amalgamation of two of the others. It wouldn't feel organic. Venus on "The Next Mutation" tried to skate by as "The Naive One", but in truth was just "The Annoying One", so that didn't work either. Thus far, there hasn't been a single attempt that didn't feel forced and tacked-on.

It's a bad idea, best left to the imaginations of first-graders at scribble-time. Because that's what it always comes off feeling like. "I wanna be a Ninja Turtle, toooo! I'mma make up my own and stick him/her in there with the others, and it'll be coooool!"

It ain't cool. It's dumb. It will never NOT be dumb.


I'd argue that the idea of Jennika becoming a turtle worked in story if not so much since then due to lack of a well thought out character arc since issue 101. Her whole shtick seems to be SJW SJW SJW and whichever strand of sjw bullsh*t the writer wants to beat into our faces.

[MikeandRaph87]

I like the idea of an evil opposite, that began with Rival, Jay Garrick/Flash I's nemesis, but was populaized by Bizarro, Superman's evil opposite. A possibility of redemption and a dark mirror to the hero. Perhaps not a direct one as Bizarro whether from Bizarro World or an imperfect clone created by Lex Luthor is not, but having an evil version of the hero is an idea that can be done very well. Look at all the examples from any Flash to Superman to Green Lantern to Spider-Man. I wish Batman had a definitive one instead of various attempts that don't fully go with the concept. Anyway, I do not want a fifth Turtle, but an evil opposite. Slash has been done so well in both Archie and IDW. They both met tragic endings, but are so well developed and carried the story without hogging the spotlight.

That being said Tokka is redundant to Slash and is unnecessary. Only by being paired with Razhar does it give him something to stand out from Slash, who I prefer.

I do not want to see any female turtle as it is commonly said it enables procreation among the mutant turtles and it will take away the novelty of who they are. I also don't want Kirby or another male mutant turtle. Adding another to the group no matter how its gone about just makes the iteration stand out, and not in a good way. You would think the Venus experiment would have taught TPTB not named Laird never to do it again. Instead of putting a personal stamp and likely alienating fans its best to keep it on the quartet that we were drawn to in the first place. I have no problem at all with various ESTABLISHED mutants that add to a story, but unnamed genderless anamorphs is unnecessary and absurd.

[LeotheLateBloomer]

Yeah, it's just a creatively bankrupt idea. I don't want to see a fifth turtle period. Male or female. You're not reinventing the wheel.

[CyberCubed]

It's the Scrappy Doo scenario. Usually a long running series tries to introduce a new character and tries to make them "work" with the original cast. Sometimes it's successful, most of the time it isn't.

Obviously a new Turtle is a bigger deal than the Turtles just having other random human or mutant friends which they do in every series anyway.

[neatoman]

I do agree that it is a very lazy idea, but what exactly makes them gravitate towards this particular lazy idea?

Yes, obviously it's trying to add yet another main character and making it a turtle seems obvious to them. But why stick to the turtle concept? It seems that if they want to add another mutant it would be easy to pick just about any animal there is. A Teenage Mutant Ninja Wasp is not that much better than another Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle, but at least such a character would be unique to look at. Like it's still really lazy, but it is just creative enough to not be a total abomination of creativity.

My guess is that the writers who make such characters think that if the title applies to this new character as well, others are more likely to stick to it.

While we're on the subject. While it may not usually work to make the new character a copy of the main ones, there are instances where it has seemingly worked to some extent. Let's face it, Batgirl and Supergirl are effectively just sexy Batman and Superman halloween costumes for women turned into actual characters, yet they still stick around for some reason despite the obvious lack of thought that went into their creation.

[IndigoErth]

Saw that video last night myself. Maybe the idea didn't seem quite as stale back then, but it just seems rather boring now. I guess it's what you do when you can't come up with anything else. (That and clip shows.) People like Turtles... here, have another one! Yawn. The 4-pack works for me, thanks.

Turtle Shredder is an interesting idea, and sounds like it's taken from that period when Raph played Shredder... but I'm not sure it's really something we need to go back into or make up a new character for it. It would have been less convoluted if that Shredder HAD simply been Raph. That's something that would have been interesting in live action.


I do not want to see any female turtle as it is commonly said it enables procreation among the mutant turtles and it will take away the novelty of who they are.
Letting them reproduce, at least naturally, would be more annoying to me than just allowing a girl one to exist. Real world hybrids and genetic oddities as an example... given how nature works, the TMNT probably aught to be sterile and would be an easy explanation as to why they wouldn't be having any of their own.

Though I like the idea of Lita and bringing both a girl Turtle and a little kid into their lives from a completely different direction that doesn't come with the baggage of adding one their own age.


edit: Granted, even bringing a grown Turtle woman in doesn't mean she and one of the guys have to hit it off. It might be more interesting if they don't and let them struggle with deciding if they have some kind of "duty" to bring another into the world, even if they aren't into each other, or if that would only be wrong and cruel to do to a child anyhow, given the dead end gene pool. And whether it's right or wrong to instead choose other partners who don't look like them, but actually connect with.

[Dejablue]

I used to say that Jennika was a pretty good idea. But the story she is in is crumbling and heavily cutting into her appeal. So what exactly makes her an SJW? The fact that Sheena kissed her? She didn't ask for that. Though one can argue the depiction of said kiss, places a strong assumption on Jennika by readers that she's bisexual now. And that might be the author's intention.

There is the stereotypical girl-band ****. But that alone is not a deal breaker.
Its mutant town. Mutant Town was so poorly done that it hobbled Jennika. And then Lita was thrown in to steal her thunder even further. Lita even more so didn't have to be a turtle. With Jennika it at least made sense.

[GoldMutant]

Unless one plans on making a specific crossover (i.e. Power Rangers) or willing to tell a proper story, I don't think a fifth turtle works. By that, I mean you could separate the fifth turtle from the main four and tell themes of isolation. Being the only one of its kind, let alone reacting to the TMNT/vice versa. It has potential but can reek of desperation.

Really, it's like having the multiple mutants in specific TMNT incarnations. Yes, you have unique types/abilities, but how do they react? Better yet, if it's entirely mutant-based, how does it work?

Do it properly and you can get an interesting character. Do it poorly, and you could end up with the abandoned Kirby or Venus (doesn't deserve the hate, personally).

All things considered, it's creatively bankrupt but can be run with depending on circumstance.

[Leo656]

I do agree that it is a very lazy idea, but what exactly makes them gravitate towards this particular lazy idea?

Yes, obviously it's trying to add yet another main character and making it a turtle seems obvious to them. But why stick to the turtle concept? It seems that if they want to add another mutant it would be easy to pick just about any animal there is. A Teenage Mutant Ninja Wasp is not that much better than another Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle, but at least such a character would be unique to look at. Like it's still really lazy, but it is just creative enough to not be a total abomination of creativity.

My guess is that the writers who make such characters think that if the title applies to this new character as well, others are more likely to stick to it.

While we're on the subject. While it may not usually work to make the new character a copy of the main ones, there are instances where it has seemingly worked to some extent. Let's face it, Batgirl and Supergirl are effectively just sexy Batman and Superman halloween costumes for women turned into actual characters, yet they still stick around for some reason despite the obvious lack of thought that went into their creation.

I think the reason why this specific idea persists - and in turn, why so many of us groan and resent it on its very face - is because it's the MOST absolutely lazy and uncreative thing you could think of, as a way to try and "add to the mythos".

I mean seriously. It's LITERALLY the laziest idea. Literally ANY other idea you could think of, even if it were as simplistic as "Let's add a mutant frog" (which the cartoon did, and indeed it did feel lazy), would by default be less lazy and more creative, simply for the fact that it was even 1% different.

"Add more mutant turtles" is the absolute nadir of creativity. Even if you somehow managed to execute it well, by some miracle, there's still no escaping the fact that by definition it's the laziest possible thing anyone could ever think of. Any three-year old who can count to five could think of it.

So the reason it comes up so often is the same reason everybody hates it: Simply because it's literally the worst idea.

[Dejablue]

"Add more mutant turtles" is the absolute nadir of creativity. Even if you somehow managed to execute it well, by some miracle, there's still no escaping the fact that by definition it's the laziest possible thing anyone could ever think of. Any three-year old who can count to five could think of it.

So the reason it comes up so often is the same reason everybody hates it: Simply because it's literally the worst idea.

There are worse ideas than a 5th turtle. Going by the complaints about recent idw issues. And even if an idea is lazy or dumb it can still be successful and popular.

But admittedly, adding 1 extra is already walking the fine line. Adding 2 extra is crossing it by a giant leap. Lita could have been the "Lets add a mutant frog" idea and I think less people would mind. There is a gigantic pool of reptiles and amphibians (or even fish) to chose from we didn't need another turtle.

People want to do 5th turtles is because they want to leave a mark on tmnt's legacy in some way. 5th turtle seems to be the fastest way to do that. A better reason would be to, maybe, tell a good story? If the story is good I don't care.

[Coola Yagami]

Most hero groups and whatnot deal with the idea of a 'add one more character' to the team.

Look at Power Rangers. **** got real when they introduced the Green Ranger cause the idea (at the time) of a NEW Power Ranger joining in the original crew was awesome. Not much different when it comes to the Turtles.

[CyberCubed]

Has adding a new character to an established set of characters ever worked before? And I don't mean recurring characters or side characters, but adding in a main character that becomes a permanent staple of the franchise in all incarnations going forward.

[neatoman]

Most hero groups and whatnot deal with the idea of a 'add one more character' to the team.

Look at Power Rangers. **** got real when they introduced the Green Ranger cause the idea (at the time) of a NEW Power Ranger joining in the original crew was awesome. Not much different when it comes to the Turtles.

1. That character was introduced as a villain, rather distinct in that regard.
2. It actually happened fairly early on.
3. The character explicitly could only help out a limited amount of times.
4. In the actual show, not the reshoot hellspawn show you're talking about, the character straight up died. He only lived in the American edition because Americans don't think kids can handle the subject.
5. The series literally introduces a new set of characters every single season, nobody cares about anyone character in particular. It's formulaic as all hell, if you were to describe any season without mentioning names or terminology, it would be hard to tell which season you're even talking about.

Adding a fifth turtle is more like adding another member to the Fantastic Four than adding another Power Ranger. The Fantastic Four does not consist of easily replaceable characters. Zyuranger is like what? The sixteenth season of Sentai? At that point there must have been at least 70 characters. Zyuranger is technically not even the first one to add more team members partway through the run, it's just the first to have six in total. The franchise was like this long before it was given cheap reshoots for Americans.

Has adding a new character to an establishes set of characters ever worked before? And I don't mean recurring characters or side characters, but adding in a main character that becomes a permanent staple of the franchise in all incarnations going forward.

Raven, Starfire and Cyborg have more or less subplanted the original Teen Titans but I don't think the original Titans (aside from maybe Robin) were all that popular in the first place.

[Leo656]

Has adding a new character to an establishes set of characters ever worked before? And I don't mean recurring characters or side characters, but adding in a main character that becomes a permanent staple of the franchise in all incarnations going forward.

The X-Men were around a long time before Wolverine ever showed up. Just off the top of my head.

Which is pretty funny considering how to most people he's the one guy you absolutely can't leave out but he was a relatively "late-game" addition. Whereas nobody cares about Iceman at all but he was there from Day One.

[AquaParade]

While I have never loved the idea, I can understand why it's popular. It's a question that easily comes to mind - "What if there were another turtle??". It does sort of ask to be explored, even if it seems like low-hanging fruit. I mean, I'd probably have no interest in exploring it as a creative person, but I could see how some would.
From a purely visual standpoint - and hey, comics are about the visuals - I think it's been fun to see Jennika on the covers, as well as a new "color scheme" for a turtle. I'm not saying that validates the character on a story level for me, but I like TMNT art and it's fun to have a wrench thrown into the visual dynamic.

And obviously, for marketing or toy manufactures, the reasons are obvious.

[neatoman]

The X-Men were around a long time before Wolverine ever showed up. Just off the top of my head.

Which is pretty funny considering how to most people he's the one guy you absolutely can't leave out but he was a relatively "late-game" addition. Whereas nobody cares about Iceman at all but he was there from Day One.

Yeah but the Original X-Men book only actually lasted 66 issues if you don't count the reprints. That may sound a lot these days but keep in mind that The Amazing Spider-Man started the same year, it lasted 406 issues without anything weird happening, and that just promoting Ben Reilly as the new main character by temporarily replacing it with "The Amazing Scarlet Spider". It's a book that has never really been cancelled. With X-Men there was about seven years of a single book being published and a literal five year gap when it came to new stories before Wolverine was introduced. Guest appearences in other books from 1963 to 1975 is pretty much just enough to fill a single trade.

It's kind of like the Teen Titans example I brought up earlier, not every series was that popular from the start, sometimes it's an iteration made way later that becomes popular. In the case of the X-Men, they seemed popular enough to be kept alive through reprints but the lack of actual content until the introduction of Wolvie certainly implies the series just wasn't popular enough to actually keep it going properly.

Although, I have to admit it's a weird scenario. Unpopular titles are typically just kept dead and are only reprinted if it's important to some other book, like if it introduced a character that is popular in some other book. But I don't think any of the pre-Claremont team members were popular before he got on the book, so you tell me?

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

I'm gonna disagree with all these guys.

Ninja Turtles needs a female turtle. What other female characters in TMNT are there for girls to like? April is boring. Renet is barely ever involved. Karai? But she's not a mutant (or she's a stupid snake mutant).

My daughter likes TMNT; she likes typically girly things. And I know my child; she would be even happier with TMNT if there was a girl Turtle.

Look at Power Rangers; there are female Power Rangers. He-Man has Teela and She-Ra. Star Trek has Janeway, Dax, Seven, Torres, etc etc etc.

What other major kids properties are there that are so one-sided in representation? And not for "SJW purposes" but just in the terms of bringing in more potential fans?

Venus could have been great, but was done terribly.
Jennika could be great, but so far, there's not a ton to like about her (and yes, I still hold her human origin against her).
Lita could be great, but so far, she's a tiny little kid OR a super-powered Time Mistress.

Regardless, as soon as Volume 13 comes in, I'm really looking forward to introducing my kiddo to Jennika. I may not like the character, and there may be a ton of problems with her creation and execution, but my daughter will like her. And from there, there's even more potential moving forward... both for my daughter's fandom and for the character herself.

[neatoman]

Why the hell would the inhuman mutated sewer monster somehow be more appealing if it was female?

[srmff]

Look at Power Rangers; there are female Power Rangers. He-Man has Teela and She-Ra. Star Trek has Janeway, Dax, Seven, Torres, etc etc etc.

I will admit that I was drawn most to the female power rangers. Other than that, all that I can remember about Power Rangers is laughing at them being constantly knocked over in a big dramatic fashion before getting up again straight away again. It was Dad who laughed about it first though.

However, I preferred He-Man to She-Ra because I just saw her as a female version of He-Man. It's probably why I've had little interest in Batgirl as well. I knew that she there to attract female viewers and I didn't have much interest since He-Man was already there. It just feels forced to me if they have a female ninja turtle since it's pretty obvious what the sole purpose of that introduction is.

The female characters do tend to appeal to me in a male dominated movie or TV show if it doesn't feel forced. I liked Arwen in Lord of the Rings because, as a young girl, I liked that we had similar features like long brown hair, pale skin and blue eyes. She is a character that had her role increased compared to the books but it didn't feel forced to me. She probably did mainly appeal to me because she was a woman. However, I didn't particularly like Galadriel or Éowyn. Aragorn was actually my favourite character though.

When I played Lego Star Wars: The Original Trilogy before seeing the movies, I always played as Leia whenever given the option and the same with Padmé in the other game. However, once I watched the movies, I mostly wanted to play as Luke but still picked Leia now and again to switch things up. The point of that example is that, yes, I was automatically drawn to the female characters when I knew nothing about them, but once I actually watched the movies, it was Luke who I liked the most. I think that I might have kept playing as Padmé in the other game since there wasn't one character who I liked in particular above all others.

[Powder]

I'm gonna disagree with all these guys.

Ninja Turtles needs a female turtle. What other female characters in TMNT are there for girls to like? April is boring. Renet is barely ever involved. Karai? But she's not a mutant (or she's a stupid snake mutant).

My daughter likes TMNT; she likes typically girly things. And I know my child; she would be even happier with TMNT if there was a girl Turtle.



It's high time people stopped clinging to things they "identify" with & just enjoy characters & stories for what they are. TMNT doesn't "need" to appeal specifically to anyone. It's already proven its merit as an almost 40 year old powerhouse that reaches all ages, genders, races, religions, etc, as-is. If someone doesn't like something because they don't see themselves in it, they can move on to the next thing.

[CyberCubed]

To be honest female characters tend to be written very poorly in franchises primarily aimed at boys. For the reason they either fall into one of two categories, either the helpless damsel in distress character who falls in love with the main character, or the opposite end of the spectrum where the girl is "grrrrrrl power" and she is strong and always right and is always smarter than all the boy characters and can do no wrong.

[IndigoErth]

and she is strong and always right and is always smarter than all the boy characters and can do no wrong.
Because franchises aren't loaded up with her Gary Stu equivalent, huh?

[Dejablue]

It's high time people stopped clinging to things they "identify" with & just enjoy characters & stories for what they are. TMNT doesn't "need" to appeal specifically to anyone. It's already proven its merit as an almost 40 year old powerhouse that reaches all ages, genders, races, religions, etc, as-is. If someone doesn't like something because they don't see themselves in it, they can move on to the next thing.

Wise words. Until TMNT, in its 40 years of existence, starts shifting into trends you don't like. Then its "sh*t go back".

[superstaff]

I'm gonna disagree with all these guys.

Ninja Turtles needs a female turtle. What other female characters in TMNT are there for girls to like? April is boring. Renet is barely ever involved. Karai? But she's not a mutant (or she's a stupid snake mutant).

My daughter likes TMNT; she likes typically girly things. And I know my child; she would be even happier with TMNT if there was a girl Turtle.

As a female fan, I don't feel like there needs to be a female turtle in order to get me to enjoy the series, and I disagree that the female TMNT characters are boring. Based on your response, it seems you only saw 2012 since you're only citing the 3 girls who appeared regularly.

In the wider TMNT franchise, I've enjoyed many characters including April, Renet, Karai, and also Alopex, Ninjara, Oyuki, Shadow, Irma, Aska, and so on.

No offense, but just because your daughter has specific tastes doesn't mean all women share those, and believe the same thing. There's many women here who enjoy the TMNT just the way they are, and don't need a female turtle to pander to them.

[IndigoErth]

Agree. Being guys doesn't mean the Turtles aren't or can't be relatable to women.

Female characters don't need and shouldn't be there to pander to female viewers, they should just there because, you know, women exist and make up half of the world.

That's really the only props I have to give to 'Rise,' that women, esp mutant/yokai ones, were there in a bit more decent number simply because it was normal that they exist. I feel that most versions of the TMNT can add at least one thing of value to the franchise, and for this one that aught to be it.

Credit to 2012 for trying a little harder eventually, but the issue to me is that for the most part it was all otherwise/initially normal looking girls...with a twist. Yawn. While going overboard on the number of mutants in a series is unnecessary, one reoccurring non-Turtle mutant woman ally who isn't just a one-off character would be nice to see. Doesn't have to be there all of the time, just now and then. Hell, I wouldn't even care if she was simply an adult character who becomes a (platonic!) friend of Splinter and mostly stays out of the general plot line.

[Leo656]

The debate about TMNT needing more TMNT characters of substance isn't new, nor is the debate about whether there should be a fifth (female) turtle, or at least a female mutant character for the kids to play as or relate to or whatever. I remember at least one instance where someone wrote a letter to the Archie comic about that specific topic, their daughter being a big fan of TMNT but outside of April or Irma there was no "in" for any of the little girls (and that April and Irma, let's be honest, were not the most compelling characters in the first place). I'm pretty sure that Ninjara was created for the comic at least in part to address some of those issues, and I always thought she was pretty cool. Problem being that not a lot of people read that book or were exposed to her character, she never appeared on the cartoon(s), and most of the "female-appeal" characters in the FW cartoon were only there once or twice.

So yeah, while I dismiss the "need" for a "Fifth Turtle" be they male OR female, and while it doesn't affect me personally, I can see how the TMNT brand maybe had a bit of a problem with female representation/inclusion for a lot longer than other brands have.

I mean to carry the MOTU football from CKD, that brand was 100% a "male power fantasy" by design, but Strong Female Characters were always included from the beginning. Even before She-Ra, Teela was always there and portrayed as He-Man's equal, and then when the cartoon show tweaked the canon a bit, they made her Captain of the Royal Guard as well as Prince Adam's bodyguard, both rather lofty positions, and while He-Man occasionally had to rescue her she was more often than not portrayed as highly capable in her own right and not just the "Damsel" trope. He-Man was literally gifted the Power of Grayskull in the first place by the Goddess/Sorceress, who mentored him throughout every version of the canon even when she wasn't able to physically get involved, so she's literally Why/How the story happens. Evil-Lyn might be as powerful as Skeletor, and possible even more ruthless and cunning. And so on. She-Ra was a more deliberate attempt to spin the brand off for little girls specifically, BUT little girls were already watching the show and playing with some of the toys because of things like this.

Whereas for the longest time, TMNT only had April, and to a lesser extent Irma, and both of them were... eh, not "useless" obviously but I can see how a little girl TMNT fan would aspire to something greater than what either of them represented. So sure, while I don't specifically agree with the need for a "Fifth Turtle" in any regard, I do kinda agree that it took a while for the brand to really get moving in the direction of depicting more, "better" female characters, sure.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

As a female fan, I don't feel like there needs to be a female turtle in order to get me to enjoy the series, and I disagree that the female TMNT characters are boring. Based on your response, it seems you only saw 2012 since you're only citing the 3 girls who appeared regularly.

Actually, no. Never watched more than an episode or two of 2012. But it seems like it put the most effort into female characters, and in the first three or four seasons... there's April, Karai, and I think that's it?

In the wider TMNT franchise, I've enjoyed many characters including April, Renet, Karai, and also Alopex, Ninjara, Oyuki, Shadow, Irma, Aska, and so on.

Ah, I did forget about Ninjara. I TRY to forget about Alopex. :tlol:

No offense, but just because your daughter has specific tastes doesn't mean all women share those, and believe the same thing. There's many women here who enjoy the TMNT just the way they are, and don't need a female turtle to pander to them.

I fully understand and agree that just because my daughter has specific tastes doesn't mean it's best for all females. There are enough examples of female fans to show that the property can survive without a fifth female Turtle.

At the same time, I think that it's a good idea from a corporate point of view AND that it could be done well. I think most everyone is too quick to hate on the concept, just because of the two female Turtles ever done (Venus and Jennika), both are pretty terribly written and portrayed.

The debate about TMNT needing more TMNT characters of substance isn't new, nor is the debate about whether there should be a fifth (female) turtle, or at least a female mutant character for the kids to play as or relate to or whatever. I remember at least one instance where someone wrote a letter to the Archie comic about that specific topic, their daughter being a big fan of TMNT but outside of April or Irma there was no "in" for any of the little girls (and that April and Irma, let's be honest, were not the most compelling characters in the first place). I'm pretty sure that Ninjara was created for the comic at least in part to address some of those issues, and I always thought she was pretty cool. Problem being that not a lot of people read that book or were exposed to her character, she never appeared on the cartoon(s), and most of the "female-appeal" characters in the FW cartoon were only there once or twice.

So yeah, while I dismiss the "need" for a "Fifth Turtle" be they male OR female, and while it doesn't affect me personally, I can see how the TMNT brand maybe had a bit of a problem with female representation/inclusion for a lot longer than other brands have.

I mean to carry the MOTU football from CKD, that brand was 100% a "male power fantasy" by design, but Strong Female Characters were always included from the beginning. Even before She-Ra, Teela was always there and portrayed as He-Man's equal, and then when the cartoon show tweaked the canon a bit, they made her Captain of the Royal Guard as well as Prince Adam's bodyguard, both rather lofty positions, and while He-Man occasionally had to rescue her she was more often than not portrayed as highly capable in her own right and not just the "Damsel" trope. He-Man was literally gifted the Power of Grayskull in the first place by the Goddess/Sorceress, who mentored him throughout every version of the canon even when she wasn't able to physically get involved, so she's literally Why/How the story happens. Evil-Lyn might be as powerful as Skeletor, and possible even more ruthless and cunning. And so on. She-Ra was a more deliberate attempt to spin the brand off for little girls specifically, BUT little girls were already watching the show and playing with some of the toys because of things like this.

Whereas for the longest time, TMNT only had April, and to a lesser extent Irma, and both of them were... eh, not "useless" obviously but I can see how a little girl TMNT fan would aspire to something greater than what either of them represented. So sure, while I don't specifically agree with the need for a "Fifth Turtle" in any regard, I do kinda agree that it took a while for the brand to really get moving in the direction of depicting more, "better" female characters, sure.

At least someone understood my points and examples.

[Leo656]

I mean, part of why I, personally, have no general problem with female mutants being created (or even "shipped" with the TMNT, if written well enough) is because you have to get more chicks in there SOMEwhere and make them an important part of the story. Even when April is handled well - which is rare - she's still One Character and that may have flown once upon a time but nowadays people expect/demand more. And I don't have a problem with there being more female characters of substance even in a property rooted in "male power fantasy", so long as it's written and handled well.

But I prefer they be more thoughtfully handled than the "fifth Turtle" scenario. Venus and Jennika feel lazy and uninspired; with Ninjara and Alopex, Kala or Mona Lisa, or whoever, it's at least a bit more creative than "One of the pre-existing main characters, but with a vagina".

More female characters? Fine. More female mutants, even, for the sake of being creative? Also fine. But a "Fifth Turtle", to me, whether male OR female, is the laziest possible method of expansion, and I can't see how I'd ever be a fan of it. I like to see people work a *little* harder than that. If a four-year old can come up with it, then it's probably a weak idea.

Which isn't to say that it's "worthless" as an idea, or that it could never conceivably be executed in a semi-interesting fashion... but it DOES betray an inherent lack of creativity, generally speaking.

[Dejablue]

Its interesting to me how different this fandom takes to 5th turtle with anger and vitriol vs Power Ranger fans who love the 6th Ranger. I wonder why it is so different?

[Leo656]

I think it's because Tommy had his own theme song. :lol:

[IndigoErth]

Maybe I'm wrong since I haven't watched it, but doesn't the Power Rangers cast also change over the years? Plus the various themes. Change kind of looks natural to that one? The Turtles, on the other hand, are more set in stone for decades and people clearly don't have much appreciation for anything that goes too far past the normal portray of that group.

[Leo656]

Yeah, it's a bit easier to cover all the "representation" bases with a group where the cast of characters rotates often.

Like on the surface, a person can look at almost any "current" or contemporary roster of the Justice League, see that there's generally only one, maybe two women on the "Core 7" group, and find fault with that. But if you dig deeper, the team goes back so long and the roster changes so frequently, that you quickly come up with a list of dozens upon dozens of female characters who were team members, so the "only one or two at a time" thing doesn't seem like much of an actual problem in the grander scheme of things.

Meanwhile, groups like the Power Rangers and Justice League are super-hero groups with a rotating roster of characters, while TMNT is not. The fact that they were created to be a family of Just Four kind of precludes any addition (or subtraction, for the sake of argument).

I will say, though, in regard to something I forgot to comment on earlier, I think it was MikeandRaph who mentioned it, but I do allow for a "fifth Turtle" in the sense of them being a villain, or antagonist, such as Slash. "Dark Doppelgangers" are one of my favorite fictional tropes, as played out as they might be. But at least it's a touch more creative than just sticking another member on the "team" for the heck of it.

The Turtles' "family" was created as Four (male) Turtles, and the (still-living) creator has gone on record many times that changing that dynamic is disrespectful towards his original vision, and I happen to agree with that.

[CyberCubed]

You'd be surprised how much of the general public to this day doesn't know that Batman has had multiple Robin's. To most people Dick Grayson is the one and only Robin, and if you told people there are 4+ Robin's most casual fans could not name any of the others.

I think it goes to prove the original characters usually have mainstream popularity, and the additions outside of the core fanbase are usually not well known. It's odd because these days Tim Drake and Damian do get a lot of appearances outside of comics in cartoons, animated movies and videogames, etc...but still only Dick is recognizable to the general public.

[neatoman]

You'd be surprised how much of the general public to this day doesn't know that Batman has had multiple Robin's. To most people Dick Grayson is the one and only Robin, and if you told people there are 4+ Robin's most casual fans could not name any of the others.

I think it goes to prove the original characters usually have mainstream popularity, and the additions outside of the core fanbase are usually not well known. It's odd because these days Tim Drake and Damian do get a lot of appearances outside of comics in cartoons, animated movies and videogames, etc...but still only Dick is recognizable to the general public.

I'm not surprised that the general public is unaware there is more than one Robin. Anyone but Dick haven't really shown up much outside of comics and if they aren't reading comics, how the hell would they even know Tim and Jason are different characters?

If we bring the conversation back to characters like Jennika and Lita, I doubt they're going to show up much outside of IDW. To be honest, I don't even know if they're gonna stick around in IDW either. To me it seems like they're either gonna get cured when the mutant town crap has somehow gotten even more stale than it already was and it's time to put it to a merciful end, or whatever writer who replaces Sophie don't care about using them and just writes them out of the story.

[Leo656]

It probably helps that Dick Grayson was Robin for FORTY f*cking years before they replaced him, and that none of his successors have lasted anywhere near as long before they in turn have been replaced. Status Quo Bias is on Dick Grayson's side, basically.

Jason Todd was introduced in 1983, and was dead by 1988. Not even long enough to be "The Robin of a generation". He also looked exactly like Grayson, which made him redundant for merchandising purposes. All of those lunchboxes in the '80s could very well have Jason instead of Dick on their packaging, for all we know, but who could tell the difference? In-story, Batman didn't want anyone to know that there was a new Robin, so it made sense, but as far as making Jason a distinct character it was difficult since he more or less was Dick's twin from a visual sense.

Tim Drake became Robin in 1990, and lasted until he was replaced by Damien in 2009. That's a good run, but it didn't help that he wasn't given much of a push outside of comic books. Most adaptations try and recount the events "in order", which meant that the cartoon, for example, had to start the Robin saga with Dick Grayson (even though they made him a composite character by giving him Tim's costume) before they could conceivably get to Tim; and by the time they got to Tim, interest in the cartoon was waning and he didn't get much of a chance to do anything. Making him yet another composite by giving him Jason's personality wasn't much help. The Teen Titans show and the "Batman Forever" movie did the same thing, starting as they should have with "The First Robin" in Dick but giving him Tim's costume since it's more modern and appealing. Basically, Tim suffers in adaptations simply for the fact that no adaptation is going to last long enough to really get around to featuring him properly, since they generally start "at the beginning", which means the Robin they use should be Dick Grayson, despite the fact that in-canon Dick hasn't been Robin for as long as I've been alive. I'm sure that most shows/movies/misc. have had Tim in the creative conversation, but in the sense of "We'll use him when we get there," and in turn they simply don't get there.

Damien's been Robin since 2009, so we're over ten years in for him. But it's not like a ton of ancillary merchandise has been produced in that time. No cartoons to speak of, and only a few video games, and so on. He was Nightwing for shock value in the Injustice games, but even in that, they completely skip over his tenure as Robin.

Basically, all of the subsequent Robins suffer from the fact that they weren't The First. Since most adaptations start the story at the beginning, they'd have to cover a long period of time before they could get past Dick Grayson in the storyline, and most of them simply won't last long enough to get to cover the Jason Todd or Tim Drake material. And since most "fans" depend on cartoons, video games, and other adaptations for the sake of following these characters, if they're not represented in those cartoons and video games then they simply won't be as well-known to the casual audience.

The only way for Tim or Damien to ever be more prominently known as Robin in the mainstream, would be for more one or several adaptations to just jump right over Grayson and all the others and start with Tim or Damien or whoever as Robin right from the start. And there's a lot of reasons why they're probably not going to do that, since if you lose Dick you also lose Nightwing.

In theory, a cartoon show for example could try and work everyone in there by plotting out about six seasons in advance, and give Dick, Jason, and Tim two seasons each as Robin. But such long-term planning is not usually how these things work, and furthermore, even if they did there's no guarantee the show would survive long enough to actually execute that idea. And then we'd be right back where we started.

When you're "first to market", you're always gonna have an edge over your successors, predecessors, and the like. There's simply no getting around it.

[Allio]

Its interesting to me how different this fandom takes to 5th turtle with anger and vitriol vs Power Ranger fans who love the 6th Ranger. I wonder why it is so different?

You have your example off Tommy was introduced 16 episodes into a franchise that didn’t have a status quo vs TMNT had a status quo of 11 years (Venus) and 35 (Jennika)

This is more the same as people hating Scrappy doo.

Now as for new Boom power Rangers? Yeah, they suck. Drakkon is a crap character and the brand new Green Ranger, Matt, so far has actually been worse than Jennika and the new green suit is actually fan-art as it’s the bat in the sun (as opposed to Jenn just looking like Sophie’s oc.

[sdp]

But Power Rangers just uses footage of Super Sentai, and Super Sentai had already been going on for like 15 years before a sixth ranger became a thing in Super Sentai. The Green ranger was so popular in sentai every sentai added a sixth ranger. Saban the owner of power rangers had little choice on whether to have a sixth ranger or not.

The Scrappy comparison is also not a good one, people accepted Scrappy Doo when he came out. Scrappy was super popular and saved Scooby Doo from cancellation. He was so popular he started to dominate the cartoons. This lasted for years, eventually people grew tired of Scooby Doo again like it's happened plenty of times in the past only this time the boomers who had grown up with the original show blamed Scrappy and it's stuck ever since. Scrappy ironically saved Scooby, it's just a cycle of people getting tired of Scooby Doo which still happens today. Ironically the last few Scrappy shows were his strongest. #scrappydidnothingwrong

[Lord Nightwalker]

This is nothing new. Comic books in general do the new member,or dark reflection of the hero all the time. Whether it works or not is all upon the creative abilities of those telling the story and shaping their look. Comics show examples a plenty. Hell, even classic toy lines have done it.

[Allio]

But Power Rangers just uses footage of Super Sentai, and Super Sentai had already been going on for like 15 years before a sixth ranger became a thing in Super Sentai. The Green ranger was so popular in sentai every sentai added a sixth ranger. Saban the owner of power rangers had little choice on whether to have a sixth ranger or not.

I mean you can’t exactly compare what appeals to eastern fans to western fans.

[superstaff]

The Scrappy comparison is also not a good one, people accepted Scrappy Doo when he came out. Scrappy was super popular and saved Scooby Doo from cancellation. He was so popular he started to dominate the cartoons. This lasted for years, eventually people grew tired of Scooby Doo again like it's happened plenty of times in the past only this time the boomers who had grown up with the original show blamed Scrappy and it's stuck ever since. Scrappy ironically saved Scooby, it's just a cycle of people getting tired of Scooby Doo which still happens today. Ironically the last few Scrappy shows were his strongest. #scrappydidnothingwrong

I don't know. I'm not a boomer. But growing up, I did not like Scrappy at all. I always wondered why he was there, especially when it came to the movies like Ghoul School where I felt he was super pointless.

Why was he popular at the time, anyway? Because he's always been super one note, and bland. His shtick is him wanting to beat up monsters, but he's a shrimpy little pup so he clearly couldn't do it, and had to be taken away by Scooby so he didn't hurt himself. That was it, that was most of his scenes.

[srmff]

I don't know. I'm not a boomer. But growing up, I did not like Scrappy at all. I always wondered why he was there, especially when it came to the movies like Ghoul School where I felt he was super pointless.

Why was he popular at the time, anyway? Because he's always been super one note, and bland. His shtick is him wanting to beat up monsters, but he's a shrimpy little pup so he clearly couldn't do it, and had to be taken away by Scooby so he didn't hurt himself. That was it, that was most of his scenes.

I'm the same. I'm most definitely not a boomer. Maybe if I was watching Scooby-Doo back then and Scrappy suddenly made an appearance after years of the show, I might have liked him but I have my doubts. My opinion on Scrappy formed in my childhood when watching Scooby-Doo episodes rather than being influenced by people online. From what I can remember, I didn't like Scrappy or the boy.

With regards to Robin, I actually never even knew his real name. I only learned that there were multiple Robins when watching Batman vs TMNT. Ra's al Ghul stated that Batman sends children to do his work for him and that another must die to teach him the follies of his ways. My brother and I had no idea what this meant so I looked it up. I had to laugh at the trivia section of IMDB: "This is an obvious reference to Jason Todd, the 2nd Robin, who was killed when Ra's al Ghul hired the Joker to distract Batman during one of his schemes." Not very obvious to us casuals.

I also agree with what's been said regarding female characters. I don't mind having more female characters but I don't want a 5th turtle. For me, there should be just 4 male turtles in the family, no more, no less.

[CyberCubed]

I think team based shows feel a lot more natural adding new characters, because it makes sense.

As mentioned before, the X-men continually add new mutants, and most of the most popular mutants came way after the initial series debuted. But it makes sense, there's millions of mutants out there and sometimes the creators strike gold with making a new character that becomes a fan favorite. Same for Teen Titans where they added new superheroes who became more popular as the originals.

Power Rangers is a Japanese show that actually replaces the entire cast every series, so again, it makes sense.

But for other series that focus on the same core cast like TMNT...adding in new major characters is much harder. There's a reason why only April/Casey continue to appear in almost every incarnation, whereas the rest of the Turtles friends (both human and mutant), cycle out between series and don't always return in the next incarnation.

[sdp]

Shadow was added to the Sonic the hedgehog series fairly late in the game and he's loved and accepted by most of the franchise. I do think it's easier to accept new members in certain franchises than others but look at how the batfamily keeps growing and all the member it's gotten over the decades with most being accepted. Reboots don't seem to affect the bat family much. TMNT can have a new member but I think it works more as a temporary member and then leaving after one or two story arcs.

As for scrappy most of the internet just uses the term "boomer" as for old people so I just use it in that context nowadays as well. I grew up in the 90s so Scrappy had already come in and left Scooby by the time I started watching it and I still loved Scrappy as an idea. My favorite show was a pup named scooby doo since it was the most recent show at the time but i enjoyed the older shows with scrappy. When people think of scrappy they think of the years where it was only shaggy/scooby/scrappy which are the worst episodes but this was only done because scrappy was so popular. In his first appearances he isn't that annoying with the rest of the scooby gang and in his later appearances with Daphne and Shaggy he had mellowed out and served more as a Velma/Freddy replacement that was far more interesting. I'd love to see Scrappy back and think it's dumb he's blamed for scooby being repetitive. A scapegoat like Venus was.

[srmff]

As for scrappy most of the internet just uses the term "boomer" as for old people so I just use it in that context nowadays as well.

In my case, I'm nothing close to being a Boomer though but I still don't like Scrappy. I'm 23 so I'm even younger than a Millennial. I'm Gen Z. My parents are Boomers though.

[CyberCubed]

I think anime gets a lot of pass with adding new characters, such as Dragon Ball.

Bejita-sama was introduced as a villain and then his and Blooma's son Future Torankasu was introduced and he became a fan favorite character. Meanwhile Son Gokuu after training with the Turtle Hermit Muten Roshi, then learned the Genki-dama from Lord Kaio sama and passed it to Son Gohan who married Bidel the daughter of Mr. Satan. And this is long after Piccolo was introduced when they went to Planet Namekku to battle Lord Furiza-sama to revive their dead friends.

Toriyama even considered killing off Bejita-sama for good but fans liked Bejita so much he made him a main character. This is in addition to Artificial humans 17 and 18 who were originally villains but Lazuli fell in love with Kuririn and they had a daughter.

Desu.

[neatoman]

I think anime gets a lot of pass with adding new characters, such as Dragon Ball.

Bejita-sama was introduced as a villain and then his and Blooma's son Future Torankasu was introduced and he became a fan favorite character. Meanwhile Son Gokuu after training with the Turtle Hermit Muten Roshi, then learned the Genki-dama from Lord Kaio sama and passed it to Son Gohan who married Bidel the daughter of Mr. Satan. And this is long after Piccolo was introduced when they went to Planet Namekku to battle Lord Furiza-sama to revive their dead friends.

Toriyama even considered killing off Bejita-sama for good but fans liked Bejita so much he made him a main character. This is in addition to Artificial humans 17 and 18 who were originally villains but Lazuli fell in love with Kuririn and they had a daughter.

Desu.

I don't know how much of this is actually meant to be taken seriously but I just pretend all of it is because it just isn't funny.

The Dragon Ball manga lasted from December 1984 to June 1995, literally just ten years and a half. Every single character you mentioned showed up within that relatively short time frame. Regular Dragon Ball manga did not resume publication again until 2015. I know it feels like it lasted longer simply because of how much stuff happens in the manga and relatively high page count compared to a western comic, but in terms of publication it really didn't take that long to finish.

Secondly, I don't think anyone would complain for the same reasons as introducing another Turtle. Maybe it's a little annoying that Vegeta replaced Piccolo as the rival chracter, who in turn replaced Tenshinhan and who in turn arguably replaced Yamcha. But I sure as hell can't complain that "Disgraced Alien Prince", "Reborn Demon King", "Tricloptic Would Be Assassin" and "Desert Bandit Shy Around Girls" are too similar too each other.

[CyberCubed]

The original Dragon Ball cast literally consisted of just Goku, Bulma, Roshi, Yamcha and Oolong/Puar. Krillin was added shortly after the first arc but we still didn't get any new characters for awhile until Tien/Chiaotzu. And then after that every new arc introduced a new major character (Piccolo, then Gohan, then Vegeta, then Freeza, then Trunks and 17/18, Mr. Satan, Boo, Trunks and Goten). etc.

If Dragon Ball didn't add any new characters then the core cast would have just been Goku, Krillin, Bulma, Roshi and Yamcha.

[Prowler]

I think anime gets a lot of pass with adding new characters, such as Dragon Ball.

Bejita-sama was introduced as a villain and then his and Blooma's son Future Torankasu was introduced and he became a fan favorite character. Meanwhile Son Gokuu after training with the Turtle Hermit Muten Roshi, then learned the Genki-dama from Lord Kaio sama and passed it to Son Gohan who married Bidel the daughter of Mr. Satan. And this is long after Piccolo was introduced when they went to Planet Namekku to battle Lord Furiza-sama to revive their dead friends.

Toriyama even considered killing off Bejita-sama for good but fans liked Bejita so much he made him a main character. This is in addition to Artificial humans 17 and 18 who were originally villains but Lazuli fell in love with Kuririn and they had a daughter.

Desu.

One Piece handles that very well. Luffy starts out alone and finds crewmates for his pirate crew along the way. The first 4 crewmates are recruited in the early arcs of the series. Then 2 slightly later and 2 more others a tad later. And it's all done organicallt with each cremate filling a role. Luffy needed a Swordsman, a navigator, a cook and a sniper for his crew. Later he finds out he needs an Archaeologist and a doctor as well. And later he find sout he needs a shipwright. He's wanted a musician from the start but Brook was the second to last member to join his crew as of today haha

[superstaff]

One Piece handles that very well. Luffy starts out alone and finds crewmates for his pirate crew along the way. The first 4 crewmates are recruited in the early arcs of the series. Then 2 slightly later and 2 more others a tad later. And it's all done organicallt with each cremate filling a role. Luffy needed a Swordsman, a navigator, a cook and a sniper for his crew. Later he finds out he needs an Archaeologist and a doctor as well. And later he find sout he needs a shipwright. He's wanted a musician from the start but Brook was the second to last member to join his crew as of today haha

Yeah, though as you said, One Piece basically set up the Straw Hat crew status quo right from chapter 2. He even stated he needed 10 strong men for his crew, which hints that there would be 10 Straw Hats to join. Thus everyone knew what to expect for the series after that.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

If Kevin Eastman and Peter Laird created five turtles from the beginning, we would have on obsession with a sixth turtle, and so on.

[neatoman]

If Kevin Eastman and Peter Laird created five turtles from the beginning, we would have on obsession with a sixth turtle, and so on.

That's not the issue here. It isn't important how many existed in the first place and the question isn't wheter or not one more is too many.

The problem is that it is seen as a really lazy idea. If you were to ask a bunch of kids to design another character for TMNT, odds are it's going to be another Turtle. Rule of thumb here, if it is the first thing a child would come up with, it's probably not even remotely a good idea.