Revisiting 2012

[Vegita-San]

So, now that all the show drama has had time to die down, and i t's not tainting the series at all for me... I thought I'd go back and re watch everything from the start, see if it flows any better with out the super long breaks.

Season 1 - clearly the best season. tries to keep things a little more grounded. evens things out between shredder and the krang pretty well. characters set up nicely.

Season 2 - Normally I'd skip 'worthless' episodes like Pizza Face, The Pulverizer, and a few others (Squirlenoids) but this time I sat through 'em. hardest was the Shellacne episode, weirdest was the Fungus episode. Season 2 isn't the best. but it has it's moments. including slash. Things that felt forgotten about the first time around where clearly a bit better planned out when you watch it full through, like Karai finding out her parenting secret.

Season 3 - on it now. This season, honestly, felt like the crews horror movie wet dream. EVERY single episode so far is some kind of horror movie rip off. as someone not a real fan of the genre, it just comes off pointless to mix the two so much. Normally, there are SO many episodes I would have skipped. the stupid epsidoe with April's mother that got totally forgotten about later down the line. The Creeper...the frog episode...etc. but, in interest of fair shakes, watching it all..

[FredWolfLeonardo]

A pretty fair analysis. Looking back, I think the show started off pretty strong with seasons 1 and 2 but went downhill on season 3 and the first half of the season 4, before getting better once again.

[sdp]

I also made a watch through thread on the drome, here are all my thoughts of impressions of the 2012 TMNT seasons (https://miscrave.com/articles/tmnt-2012/) as I watched them. But don't let other people's comment in the thread influence you, I personally think season 4 is the best since Season 1. Season 5 has many fans but I only liked the series finale which is Mutant Apocalypse, make sure to watch that at the end as it was intended and the crossover before). That finale 3 parter is perhaps the best episode(s) of the 2012 show.

This season, honestly, felt like the crews horror movie wet dream. EVERY single episode so far is some kind of horror movie rip off.
It doesn't get much better, each season has about 5 horror themed episodes or more, it's my main complaint, the writers wasted so many episodes on horror tributes. It's almost as if they wanted to write another type of show and only dealt with the turtles to be able to have their stupid horror tributes.

[IMJ]

I'm normally pressed nowadays for my screen time, but now that you posted this, I truly would like to sit down and rewatch it too.

I'm going to see if I can do it..... I remember I got legit bored with the show around the cabin season.

[AquaParade]

Yeah, I seem to have a fonder memory of the show but I dipped it out around season 2, so maybe that's why.

[CyberCubed]

The Northampton arc is only the first 8 eps of Season 3, I have no idea where this nonsense of "half of Season 3 being horror themed" even comes from, but it should have been shorted to 5 eps in Northampton. The bulk of the space eps were good aside from a few of them (the gremlins ep and a few others)

Fungus Humungus is probably one of the best episodes of the season.

EDIT: Also the irony of Vegita-san complaining about "fillers" when he loves the Fred Wolf cartoon where almost 1/3rd of the eps can be skipped (and I'm saying this as someone who loves the original cartoon)

[Leo656]

EDIT: Also the irony of Vegita-san complaining about "fillers" when he loves the Fred Wolf cartoon where almost 1/3rd of the eps can be skipped (and I'm saying this as someone who loves the original cartoon)

Yeah but it doesn't really "need" to be spoken of in regard to the FW cartoon like it does with the Nicktoon. By this point most of the FW show's flaws are oft-recognized, even by people who are fans of it. By contrast, the Nicktoon still carries this reputation for being this amazing show when objectively it kinda wasn't. There was a ton of stuff wrong with it that people just "weren't supposed" to mention because people were so thrilled to have a new TMNT show out. Now that it's been over with for a few years I think we'll see a lot more criticism coming out as people revisit it.

[CyberCubed]

Yeah but it doesn't really "need" to be spoken of in regard to the FW cartoon like it does with the Nicktoon. By this point most of the FW show's flaws are oft-recognized, even by people who are fans of it. By contrast, the Nicktoon still carries this reputation for being this amazing show when objectively it kinda wasn't. There was a ton of stuff wrong with it that people just "weren't supposed" to mention because people were so thrilled to have a new TMNT show out. Now that it's been over with for a few years I think we'll see a lot more criticism coming out as people revisit it.

It's very common for kids cartoons to have half the season be filler or stand-alone episodes, so kids can jump in at any episode and not be "confused" by what's going on. The 2012 show mixed filler/stand-alone eps with plot eps coming directly after, so it's not like there was entire seasons of nothing happening.

I watched the 2012 series in full 3 times, it has a number of arcs each season. Of course some stuff gets flanderized and some of the mutant of the week eps could be boring or whatever, but the better parts hold up.

[newfan]

I was surprised to see it was you who created this thread VS :D By the time I got here you weren't a fan but I think I remember you saying you liked the early stuff.

I also feel the earlier seasons were stronger, I know for a number of people season 2 was a big drop but I liked it, not the pizzaface ep though :) With the horror stuff I think it was mostly grouped in the Northampton arc, I liked some of that (mostly the first ep) though it's not something I would want to go on too long. With season 4 I preferred the later half as the Space arc started to go on too long for me.
As for 5, I preferred having an on going series to having tales but I didn't dislike it, didn't feel the horror arc needed 4 eps but it's not really a big deal. 5 At least worked with all the airing issues, it would at least air the arcs at a time.

[IMJ]

EDIT: Also the irony of Vegita-san complaining about "fillers" when he loves the Fred Wolf cartoon where almost 1/3rd of the eps can be skipped (and I'm saying this as someone who loves the original cartoon)

Well... in his defense there is a bit of an expectation that 2012 was carrying a cross-season story and whereas the FW show had maybe a single continuity thread ever that could be encompassed by the term "recognition" - like "where has Shredder been since we sank the Technodrome" or Rat King shows up and it's simply "this guy is back".

I think the nature of the show can command an observation like Vegita-san was making. Filler in 2012 stuck out like a sore thumb whereas filler in FW was "just another episode".

[CyberCubed]

I actually think some of my favorite eps were some of the fillers. As I mentioned, Fungus Humungous is one of the funniest eps of the series and had the best visuals too with the Turtles tripping out due to the fungus spray making them hallucinate. But I do agree some eps like the Pizzaface ep and the Pulverizer eps were pretty bad, and my least favorite ep overall is the Bigfoot ep which was terrible. I loved The Creep ep though, it was a very well done episode.

Season 5 is probably one of the strongest seasons after Seasons 1-2, but Seasons 3 and 4 also have many great episodes. The backhalf of Season 3 is fantastic, and Season 4 had a number of great eps in space and then when they get back to NY almost every ep was important since they were wrapping up most of the character arcs back then.

[IMJ]

I actually think some of my favorite eps were some of the fillers. As I mentioned, Fungus Humungous is one of the funniest eps of the series and had the best visuals too with the Turtles tripping out due to the fungus spray making them hallucinate.

Oh man it's been so long I forgot about that... that was hysterical.... I think, in hindsight I might have fonder memories of that show than it deserves on the basis that it's one of the few cartoons I ever actually laughed out loud at now and again.

I'm going to have to re-watch it.....

[AquaParade]

I've been meaning to watch season 5 one of these days. Is that the apocalypse arc?

[newfan]

I've been meaning to watch season 5 one of these days. Is that the apocalypse arc?

Apocalypse is the last arc of season 5.

I've not gone back and watched the show from start to finish, just revisited whatever ep I've wanted to watch.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Apocalypse is the last arc of season 5.

The Nickelodeon Bebop and Rocksteady crossovers were the final episodes to air, but the Mutant Apocalypse episodes take place much later.

[newfan]

The Nickelodeon Bebop and Rocksteady crossovers were the final episodes to air, but the Mutant Apocalypse episodes take place much later.

But besides Nicks airing the production order didn't change, I don't think anyway. So if someone buys the series to watch then M/A would still be last.

[CyberCubed]

I've been meaning to watch season 5 one of these days. Is that the apocalypse arc?

The apocalypse arc is only the last 3 episodes of Season 5. The first 17 episodes all take place in the present.

[Vegita-San]

My God, a Foot Too Big. How many different drugs where they on when they wrote that one?

dunno if that one or attack of the mega shredder, or buried secrets goes down as worst 2012 episode.

they could have found a better way to show what a creep donnie was being to april.

[Zog The Magnificent]

A Foot Too Big is by far the worst episode of the show.

I've said it before, but the 2012 show is my favorite out of the Ninja Turtle cartoons. I think it holds up really well, and it has it's weaker parts, but the strong parts are really strong. My personal favorite season is season 4, especially the back half where it was just really solid all around. Though I do wish the show had just done the Kavaxas arc as a movie and ended there. The apocalypse ending kind of ruins the show, which is why I'm somewhat glad that it's "officially" noncanon. I also think that this show watches better on DVD, as the longer arcs like Northampton, April's dad being mutated, Karai reuniting with the turtles, etc., are not nearly as painful as when you get a month or longer break every four episodes, and you get to see the development play out at a much better pace.

[CyberCubed]

You can choose to view the Apocalypse finale as a "what if" if you want to. For Ciro it's likely intended to be canon, but if not, it doesn't really matter.

The Kavaxas arc and the 80's crossover with Bebop/Rocksteady both work well as series finale arcs.

[Zog The Magnificent]

You can choose to view the Apocalypse finale as a "what if" if you want to. For Ciro it's likely intended to be canon, but if not, it doesn't really matter.

The Kavaxas arc and the 80's crossover with Bebop/Rocksteady both work well as series finale arcs.

I actually disagree that the Bebop and Rocksteady arc works well as a finale. The Kavaxas arc continued on from the primary narrative, tying off the final loose ends and then providing an emotionally satisfying ending, which is something the B&R arc didn't have. But beyond that, what really makes it not feel like a finale, at least for me, is the lack of cohesion throughout the parts. Characters will show up in one of the three parts, and then be completely absent in the following parts, like the Mutanimals in part 1, or Karai and Shinigami in part 2. Nothing really builds up and it just kind of start and go throughout, as the conflict stays the same size in each episode rather than getting bigger each episode. Also, I just think the other works better because it's entirely within the context of the 2012 show, rather than once again tying in with the '87 show. They're fun episodes on their own, but it's not exactly the best note to leave the series on.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Mutant Apocalypse is the canonical ending, and a fantastic one at that.

[sdp]

apocalypse arc is canon, just because you don't like how it ends the series and the implications of that being the future doesn't mean it's non-canon. I don't know how this narrative 'you can view it as a what if episode and if you like it you can count it if not that's ok". I mean by that logic can I just say Splinter's death didn't happen and that's a what if scenario? It's a canon episode and a great one and a great finale.

the crossover episode is worse than the first crossover, so it's not a great ending, not to mention how is it an ending to the 2012 show if it deals with the 80s characters and they got help from the 80s cartoon characters. I wasn't a huge fan of the apocalypse arc but it surely feels more of a "last epic" adventure than the crossover which isn't focused on the 2012 characters.

[Zog The Magnificent]

The canonicity of things is a bit nebulous when dealing with a franchise made by different people over different times. Whose to say whose word really "counts"? If Peter Laird spoke on the canonicity of the newer shows, we'd ignore him even though he's the original creator, as it were. Likewise, I can't speak for those here, but a large number of people, myself included, will ignore the Star Wars sequel trilogy because of how it undermines the rest of the story and sucks in general. Disney, the current owner and creator of Star Wars, considers it canon, George Lucas doesn't, but he doesn't own it anymore. Whose word matters more? In some ways, I almost think it can be better to focus on what's good rather than what counts, but that can lead to it's own set of problems. Ciero considers it canon. Nickelodeon officially does not. Whose word counts? It really depends on your perspective. Mutant Apocalypse is a fine set of episodes by themselves, technically competent from a writing and foundational perspective. But as an ending to the show? It undermines the story by making everything the turtles did completely pointless. Nothing they did mattered. They just delayed the inevitable. I think that sucks. Ultimately it doesn't matter. 2012 is just another show that I'll say "Yeah, it was really good, but it kinda has a sucky ending."

[Vegita-San]

what makes a bigfoot even more stupid is at the end april contradicts her earlier actions making the entire point moot and confusing.

one reason why the episode Leonardo Cuts Loose of 87 is so annoying. characters contradict themselves and forget what they said a few seconds earlier, like they aren't paying attention.

[The Great Saiyaman]

I still watch the series (the first season in particular) on a regular basis because I wanted my fan comic "the Full 80%" to feel as authentic as possible.

So the canon of my comic is pretty much the canon of the series after the Kavaxxas series. I always felt that the Kraang were criminally underused in the series and when I read about the idea that Ciro had for a full movie called "Return of the Kraang" I went with that.

What I do when introducing people to the 2012 series is to play "Lone rat and cubs" to them before unleashing the first season because "Lone rat" is an excellent way to show what the series is all about, it's by far the best episode of the entire series.

So yeah, I still love the series and watch it on a regular basis even if the animation is a little iffy at times.

[Zog The Magnificent]

I always thought Lone Rat and Cubs worked really well as a nice denouement episode, to follow the Kavaxas arc. A nice, low-key adventure that brings the whole show full circle. In that regard, it also works really well following the Mutant Apocalypse arc, if you want to take it as canonical. Either way, I think it works really well when watched as the final episode.

[sdp]

The canonicity of things is a bit nebulous when dealing with a franchise made by different people over different times. Whose to say whose word really "counts"? If Peter Laird spoke on the canonicity of the newer shows, we'd ignore him even though he's the original creator, as it were. Likewise, I can't speak for those here, but a large number of people, myself included, will ignore the Star Wars sequel trilogy because of how it undermines the rest of the story and sucks in general. Disney, the current owner and creator of Star Wars, considers it canon, George Lucas doesn't, but he doesn't own it anymore. Whose word matters more? In some ways, I almost think it can be better to focus on what's good rather than what counts, but that can lead to it's own set of problems. Ciero considers it canon. Nickelodeon officially does not. Whose word counts? It really depends on your perspective. Mutant Apocalypse is a fine set of episodes by themselves, technically competent from a writing and foundational perspective. But as an ending to the show? It undermines the story by making everything the turtles did completely pointless. Nothing they did mattered. They just delayed the inevitable. I think that sucks. Ultimately it doesn't matter. 2012 is just another show that I'll say "Yeah, it was really good, but it kinda has a sucky ending."

What? the canonicity is not nebulous, it's an actual episode of the series and never is it implied that it didn't happen in the show, on the contrary it's an epilogue. Whether you like that as an epilogue or not is another thing, it's like when Batman Beyond started and people didn't like it being Batman's future since everything was wrong and many people online would say it was "an alternate future" or possible event, with no evidence whatsoever, it wasn't until much later when the show proved to be great and even had crossovers with their past selves that people stopped spouting nonsense.

I hate the Star Wars sequels as much as anyone, in fact even before most people did, I hated Ep.7 since it came out. That doesn't mean it's not canon, it definitely is and Disney decides that, not George Lucas; Who by the way has never said it wasn't noncanon either, which wouldn't matter either since he doesn't own star wars.

Now when the creator says something that is not in the actual show it's usually called word of god, it's what the creator says he wanted but isn't in the actual canon show (which sometimes they make up stuff the longer it's been since the show created). I think taking word of god with a grain of salt is the best take, sometimes they go crazy with what the IP owners would ever approve so it really depends, so i dont' care what Ciro necessarily thinks but in this case we do see it was part of the show and Nickelodeon has never explicitly stated it is not canon. You might not like it as an epilogue, I also prefer a happy ending to the turtles but it's as canon as it can get.

[Zog The Magnificent]

What? the canonicity is not nebulous, it's an actual episode of the series and never is it implied that it didn't happen in the show, on the contrary it's an epilogue. Whether you like that as an epilogue or not is another thing, it's like when Batman Beyond started and people didn't like it being Batman's future since everything was wrong and many people online would say it was "an alternate future" or possible event, with no evidence whatsoever, it wasn't until much later when the show proved to be great and even had crossovers with their past selves that people stopped spouting nonsense.

I hate the Star Wars sequels as much as anyone, in fact even before most people did, I hated Ep.7 since it came out. That doesn't mean it's not canon, it definitely is and Disney decides that, not George Lucas; Who by the way has never said it wasn't noncanon either, which wouldn't matter either since he doesn't own star wars.

Now when the creator says something that is not in the actual show it's usually called word of god, it's what the creator says he wanted but isn't in the actual canon show (which sometimes they make up stuff the longer it's been since the show created). I think taking word of god with a grain of salt is the best take, sometimes they go crazy with what the IP owners would ever approve so it really depends, so i dont' care what Ciro necessarily thinks but in this case we do see it was part of the show and Nickelodeon has never explicitly stated it is not canon. You might not like it as an epilogue, I also prefer a happy ending to the turtles but it's as canon as it can get.

It's interesting that you use Batman Beyond as your example. There aren't actually any crossovers within the show itself, and in the early years, it wasn't treated as the definite future, but a possible future. It wasn't until Justice League and Static Shock crossed over with it that it was codified as the definite future. Until that point, not even the showrunners of the DCAU considered it definitive.

As to your other points thought, Mutant Apocalypse actually has been rendered noncanon officially by Nickelodeon. From the Wikipedia page:

"The Wasteland Warrior, "The Impossible Desert", and "Carmageddon!" are typically presented as a television movie, "Raphael: Mutant Apocalypse". Although these episodes were not the last to air, and not officially considered canon by Nickelodeon, they were the last episodes produced.[6] In an interview, executive producer Ciro Nieli revealed that he intended for these episodes to be the series finale in order to prevent any alteration of the timeline that he and the rest of the crew had built,[7] despite the episodes' contradictions to previously established canon (most notably Renet's description of the future from the Season 3 episode "Turtles in Time"). However, Nickelodeon chose to air those episodes on Nicktoons in the middle of the season, and declared "Wanted: Bebop and Rocksteady" the finale instead.[8] On threads from the official TMNT twitter, the company indicated that "Raphael: Mutant Apocalypse" is non-canon,[9][10] and a press release for the DVD refers to the special as "another dimension".[11]

Here is all of the text from the tweets in question:


TMNT
@TMNT· Sep 22, 2017
Wanted: Bebop & Rocksteady is the finale. Airs on Nickelodeon on 11/12.


TMNT
@TMNT· Sep 25, 2017
Replying to @Spidey4Evs and @pacodelbarrio12
Right on. "Tales of the TMNT" is stories from the past, future, and beyond.


TMNT
@TMNT· Sep 22, 2017
Replying to @ShinobiPizza and @NickAnimation
A "Tale" from the beyond!

Lucy Rogers
@asfaloth_12· Sep 30, 2018
Replying to @TMNT
Anything can happen in an AU
TMNT
@TMNT· Oct 1, 2018
Alternate possibilities


FrodoFan1986
@frodofan1986· Jan 30, 2018 @auman_brandon
Is there any validity to people saying "Mutant Apocalypse" can be interpreted as an AU? I'm asking on behalf of someone with severe depression who swore off the show entirely after seeing that, because it upset her so much.
Brandon Auman
@auman_brandon· Jan 31, 2018
It could be seen as AU, because it takes place in the future

Momin
@rignaceous· Jan 22, 2018
Replying to @auman_brandon
Wow you replied! That’s an interesting response, and the number one big question all TMNT 2012 fans have, is that did you want Mutant Apocalypse to be canon or be in an alternate universe?

Brandon Auman
@auman_brandon· Jan 22, 2018
That's for the audience to decide

But, perhaps the most damaning piece of evidence regarding it's noncanon status is from a press release from Nickelodeon advertising the final dvd collection of this series, where they explicity refer to the mutant arc as taking place in another dimension. From the press release:

"NEW YORK; November 1, 2017 - Leo, Raph, Donnie and Mikey put five years of training and fighting to the ultimate test as they embark on their final missions in the new Nickelodeon DVD Tales of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: The Final Chapters, available December 12. In this final collection of episodes, the half-shelled heroes must band together once and for all, in order to be the heroes they were destined to be. Whether they are battling mutants in another dimension, teaming up with a rabbit samurai to defeat an evil sorcerer, or clashing with classic movie monsters to protect New York City, the Turtles will have to use all of their ninja-knowledge to defeat their enemies!"

Per your own statement, this would render the arc noncanon, as Nickelodeon and Viacom own TMNT right now. This is what I meant by saying that it is nebulous. Whose word should count more, the showrunner who made the show, or the studio that owns it? It's easier in works made by a single author. Stan Sakai is the only person to ever write and create Usagi Yojimbo. Whatever he says about any details about the story would be taken as true. If IDW, the current publisher, tried to say that the earlier Fantagraphics stories were noncanon, they would be ignored. George Lucas no longer owns Star Wars, but Disney's Star Wars sucks. Whose word matters more? According to you, whoever owns it gets to be right, but ownership could change, and if someone else buys it, they could wipe out all the canon if they wanted. Canon in franchises almost has a Schrodinger's cat thing going on, as it could at any point be retconned into never being canon and them right back. Whose word matters more? But regardless, Nickelodeon has explicity referred to it as noncanon, and they own it, which means that, at least by your standards, Mutant Apocalypse is noncanon.

[Vegita-San]

got through most of season 3.

some episodes where not as bad as I remembered and actually had a few redeeming things about them. Eyes of the Chimera. Vision Quest. In Dreams.

The rest, where as bad, or worse. a Foot To Big, Within the Woods, the Croaking, Casey Jones Vrs The Underworld.... The latter being how he single handedly beats everyone, even for a few seconds, without even a sweat into mary sue territory.

The Good, Clash of the Mutanimals, Battle for new York. Serpent Hunt, Pig and the Rhino...Turtles in Time/Tale of the Yokai... havbn't gotten to the last few.

I'd say about 9 bad episodes in season 3 that never need re watching again. the rest ok.

[Zog The Magnificent]

got through most of season 3.

some episodes where not as bad as I remembered and actually had a few redeeming things about them. Eyes of the Chimera. Vision Quest. In Dreams.

The rest, where as bad, or worse. a Foot To Big, Within the Woods, the Croaking, Casey Jones Vrs The Underworld.... The latter being how he single handedly beats everyone, even for a few seconds, without even a sweat into mary sue territory.

The Good, Clash of the Mutanimals, Battle for new York. Serpent Hunt, Pig and the Rhino...Turtles in Time/Tale of the Yokai... havbn't gotten to the last few.

I'd say about 9 bad episodes in season 3 that never need re watching again. the rest ok.

I remember being really annoyed with the first part of season 3 the first time around. This was before I had read the Mirage comics, so the long arc away from the plot, combined with the month long breaks in the middle, made for a tedious time. But then after I read Mirage, and rewatched the show, I found I could appreciated the purpose of the Northampton arc. The extended breather period was what it was supposed to be, and honestly it did it better than the 2003 show, which only had 2 episodes dedicated to it. I think the only things I remember distincly not liking from this season were this show's interpretation of Hun, the inconsistency with Muckman's hero status reletive to the turtles, and Casey's "This is awesome!" line right at the end of the finale after the world just got destroyed. Really kind of killed the mood.

[ABrown]

I've occasionally rewatched an episode here or there on Pluto. I don't think that I'll ever reach a point where I'll want to rewatch the show in its entirety. I think Hulu still has the entire series though, correct?

[Vegita-San]

I remember being really annoyed with the first part of season 3 the first time around. This was before I had read the Mirage comics, so the long arc away from the plot, combined with the month long breaks in the middle, made for a tedious time. But then after I read Mirage, and rewatched the show, I found I could appreciated the purpose of the Northampton arc. The extended breather period was what it was supposed to be, and honestly it did it better than the 2003 show, which only had 2 episodes dedicated to it. I think the only things I remember distincly not liking from this season were this show's interpretation of Hun, the inconsistency with Muckman's hero status reletive to the turtles, and Casey's "This is awesome!" line right at the end of the finale after the world just got destroyed. Really kind of killed the mood.

the thing that bugged me is that these are supposed to be 'down time' episodes. but there was just as much action in these as the main plot. and most where horror movie rip offs that made little or no sense. it felt like a totally different show runner was in charge. compared to the more grounded return to new york section.

I think Casey's line was supposed to try and lighten the mood a little after what just happened, but like mikey's line after leatherhead 'dies' in 2003 when the layer collapses on him, it feels really weird and defeats the purpose.....

It just feels like someone was trying to keep this show grounded....and someone else was trying to take it in a different direction. feels like a case of two different people in charge this season and that's why it's a real mess.

for example, clash of the mutanimals. Why does shredder sit in a lowered pit of fire for no reason during that battle? something weird in an other wise ok episode. there could have been other better reasons to show ways he didn't get crushed by that statue at the end.

Dr.Cluckenstein is another weird addition that gets totally forgotten about once they move on.

At least in 2003, they DID have some down time. turtles recovering from their injuries with the battle. camping trips. felt alot more fun and natural.

here, we get a society of frogs in a giant tree that NO ONE seems to notice. a city that gets invaded and goes totally dark/quiet and the entire world things everything is ok......I mean...come on.

[CyberCubed]

I've occasionally rewatched an episode here or there on Pluto. I don't think that I'll ever reach a point where I'll want to rewatch the show in its entirety. I think Hulu still has the entire series though, correct?

It should still be streamed in multiple places. Watching the show in order is much more rewarding than just a random ep

[Leo656]

Not if you dislike most of it.

[MrPliggins]

I still never watched past season 2 of this show. It just couldn't keep my interest. Good to know it gets better later on. Maybe I'll skip to the end.

[sdp]

It's interesting that you use Batman Beyond as your example. There aren't actually any crossovers within the show itself, and in the early years, it wasn't treated as the definite future, but a possible future. It wasn't until Justice League and Static Shock crossed over with it that it was codified as the definite future. Until that point, not even the showrunners of the DCAU considered it definitive.

As to your other points thought, Mutant Apocalypse actually has been rendered noncanon officially by Nickelodeon. From the Wikipedia page:

"The Wasteland Warrior, "The Impossible Desert", and "Carmageddon!" are typically presented as a television movie, "Raphael: Mutant Apocalypse". Although these episodes were not the last to air, and not officially considered canon by Nickelodeon, they were the last episodes produced.[6] In an interview, executive producer Ciro Nieli revealed that he intended for these episodes to be the series finale in order to prevent any alteration of the timeline that he and the rest of the crew had built,[7] despite the episodes' contradictions to previously established canon (most notably Renet's description of the future from the Season 3 episode "Turtles in Time"). However, Nickelodeon chose to air those episodes on Nicktoons in the middle of the season, and declared "Wanted: Bebop and Rocksteady" the finale instead.[8] On threads from the official TMNT twitter, the company indicated that "Raphael: Mutant Apocalypse" is non-canon,[9][10] and a press release for the DVD refers to the special as "another dimension".[11]

Here is all of the text from the tweets in question:


TMNT
@TMNT· Sep 22, 2017
Wanted: Bebop & Rocksteady is the finale. Airs on Nickelodeon on 11/12.


TMNT
@TMNT· Sep 25, 2017
Replying to @Spidey4Evs and @pacodelbarrio12
Right on. "Tales of the TMNT" is stories from the past, future, and beyond.


TMNT
@TMNT· Sep 22, 2017
Replying to @ShinobiPizza and @NickAnimation
A "Tale" from the beyond!

Lucy Rogers
@asfaloth_12· Sep 30, 2018
Replying to @TMNT
Anything can happen in an AU
TMNT
@TMNT· Oct 1, 2018
Alternate possibilities


FrodoFan1986
@frodofan1986· Jan 30, 2018 @auman_brandon
Is there any validity to people saying "Mutant Apocalypse" can be interpreted as an AU? I'm asking on behalf of someone with severe depression who swore off the show entirely after seeing that, because it upset her so much.
Brandon Auman
@auman_brandon· Jan 31, 2018
It could be seen as AU, because it takes place in the future

Momin
@rignaceous· Jan 22, 2018
Replying to @auman_brandon
Wow you replied! That’s an interesting response, and the number one big question all TMNT 2012 fans have, is that did you want Mutant Apocalypse to be canon or be in an alternate universe?

Brandon Auman
@auman_brandon· Jan 22, 2018
That's for the audience to decide

But, perhaps the most damaning piece of evidence regarding it's noncanon status is from a press release from Nickelodeon advertising the final dvd collection of this series, where they explicity refer to the mutant arc as taking place in another dimension. From the press release:

"NEW YORK; November 1, 2017 - Leo, Raph, Donnie and Mikey put five years of training and fighting to the ultimate test as they embark on their final missions in the new Nickelodeon DVD Tales of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: The Final Chapters, available December 12. In this final collection of episodes, the half-shelled heroes must band together once and for all, in order to be the heroes they were destined to be. Whether they are battling mutants in another dimension, teaming up with a rabbit samurai to defeat an evil sorcerer, or clashing with classic movie monsters to protect New York City, the Turtles will have to use all of their ninja-knowledge to defeat their enemies!"

Per your own statement, this would render the arc noncanon, as Nickelodeon and Viacom own TMNT right now. This is what I meant by saying that it is nebulous. Whose word should count more, the showrunner who made the show, or the studio that owns it? It's easier in works made by a single author. Stan Sakai is the only person to ever write and create Usagi Yojimbo. Whatever he says about any details about the story would be taken as true. If IDW, the current publisher, tried to say that the earlier Fantagraphics stories were noncanon, they would be ignored. George Lucas no longer owns Star Wars, but Disney's Star Wars sucks. Whose word matters more? According to you, whoever owns it gets to be right, but ownership could change, and if someone else buys it, they could wipe out all the canon if they wanted. Canon in franchises almost has a Schrodinger's cat thing going on, as it could at any point be retconned into never being canon and them right back. Whose word matters more? But regardless, Nickelodeon has explicity referred to it as noncanon, and they own it, which means that, at least by your standards, Mutant Apocalypse is noncanon.

that's some good mental gymnastics to make the headcanon replace screen canon canon through interpretation of vague tweets at best from word of god mostly done to not piss off aspies on social media. But at the end of the day, still canon.


I still never watched past season 2 of this show. It just couldn't keep my interest. Good to know it gets better later on. Maybe I'll skip to the end.


Even if you hate the show, anyone can watch the Mutant Apocalypse arc by itself and understand it perfectly and love it. Start there, might get you curious to check the entire show out. It's just good and works as a standalone movie.

[Zog The Magnificent]

that's some good mental gymnastics to make the headcanon replace screen canon canon through interpretation of vague tweets at best from word of god mostly done to not piss off aspies on social media. But at the end of the day, still canon.

There's no mental gymnastics about it. It's not headcanon. Nickelodeon deemed it noncanon. They referred to it as noncanon. It is officially listed on available sources of information as noncanon, which is just as well, as it contradicts the canon of the show. This is entirely consistent with your previous statements wherein you said whoever owns the property gets to determine canon. At this point, the only mental gymnastics are on your end, as in response to the sizable amount of evidence I've presented, you have essentially said "Nah, that doesn't count" and then not addressed any of the actual points I made.

[sdp]

What official information? Do you really want me to go full aspie and go point by point? I will. Granted I don't like the idea of the 2012 turtles having that future and the implications of it but it's a good story arc and canon, i can't change it.
It's interesting that you use Batman Beyond as your example. There aren't actually any crossovers within the show itself, and in the early years, it wasn't treated as the definite future, but a possible future. It wasn't until Justice League and Static Shock crossed over with it that it was codified as the definite future. Until that point, not even the showrunners of the DCAU considered it definitive.

Batman Beyond was always canon, it was always fans who said it might not because they didn't like bruce being a jaded old man. Later crossovers proved them wrong.

As to your other points thought, Mutant Apocalypse actually has been rendered noncanon officially by Nickelodeon. From the Wikipedia page:

"The Wasteland Warrior, "The Impossible Desert", and "Carmageddon!" are typically presented as a television movie, "Raphael: Mutant Apocalypse". Although these episodes were not the last to air, and not officially considered canon by Nickelodeon, they were the last episodes produced.[6] In an interview, executive producer Ciro Nieli revealed that he intended for these episodes to be the series finale in order to prevent any alteration of the timeline that he and the rest of the crew had built,[7] despite the episodes' contradictions to previously established canon (most notably Renet's description of the future from the Season 3 episode "Turtles in Time"). However, Nickelodeon chose to air those episodes on Nicktoons in the middle of the season, and declared "Wanted: Bebop and Rocksteady" the finale instead.[8] On threads from the official TMNT twitter, the company indicated that "Raphael: Mutant Apocalypse" is non-canon,[9][10] and a press release for the DVD refers to the special as "another dimension".[11]

first of all quoting wikipedia with obvious fan slant, not even worthy of being included in the current page of wikipedia grasping at straws.


Here is all of the text from the tweets in question:
TMNT
@TMNT· Sep 22, 2017
Wanted: Bebop & Rocksteady is the finale. Airs on Nickelodeon on 11/12.

So? Something being the "finale" doesn't mean it's the actual last episode.

TMNT
@TMNT· Sep 25, 2017
Replying to @Spidey4Evs and @pacodelbarrio12
Right on. "Tales of the TMNT" is stories from the past, future, and beyond.

Where does it say it's non canon? It's a tale from the future.

TMNT
@TMNT· Sep 22, 2017
Replying to @ShinobiPizza and @NickAnimation
A "Tale" from the beyond!
Not that it matters what some wagie working the social media account says, the account might be official but not necessarily what he types there. Social media managers get stuff wrong all the time.


Lucy Rogers
@asfaloth_12· Sep 30, 2018
Replying to @TMNT
Anything can happen in an AU
TMNT
@TMNT· Oct 1, 2018
Alternate possibilities

Again, this means nothing

FrodoFan1986
@frodofan1986· Jan 30, 2018 @auman_brandon
Is there any validity to people saying "Mutant Apocalypse" can be interpreted as an AU? I'm asking on behalf of someone with severe depression who swore off the show entirely after seeing that, because it upset her so much.
Brandon Auman
@auman_brandon· Jan 31, 2018
It could be seen as AU, because it takes place in the future

Momin
@rignaceous· Jan 22, 2018
Replying to @auman_brandon
Wow you replied! That’s an interesting response, and the number one big question all TMNT 2012 fans have, is that did you want Mutant Apocalypse to be canon or be in an alternate universe?

Brandon Auman
@auman_brandon· Jan 22, 2018
That's for the audience to decide


First of all, that would be word of god and not necessarily screen canon. Second of all how would you reply to a fan who is basically saying they're going to commit sudoku because they're cartoon show for kids didn't end how they wanted it to end? AND even then he uses the word "could" which is a modal verb that expresses possibility at best and a vague statement of "for the audience to decide" AKA head canon. He sure didn't want to be in a news hit article of how a fan killed themselves because their headcanon is wrong.

But, perhaps the most damaning piece of evidence regarding it's noncanon status is from a press release from Nickelodeon advertising the final dvd collection of this series, where they explicity refer to the mutant arc as taking place in another dimension. From the press release:

"NEW YORK; November 1, 2017 - Leo, Raph, Donnie and Mikey put five years of training and fighting to the ultimate test as they embark on their final missions in the new Nickelodeon DVD Tales of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: The Final Chapters, available December 12. In this final collection of episodes, the half-shelled heroes must band together once and for all, in order to be the heroes they were destined to be. Whether they are battling mutants in another dimension, teaming up with a rabbit samurai to defeat an evil sorcerer, or clashing with classic movie monsters to protect New York City, the Turtles will have to use all of their ninja-knowledge to defeat their enemies!"

How is this damaging? Anyone can write those synopsis and they often include wrong information all the time, most fandoms don't consider that type of information as canon. And even then it doesn't state it's not canon.


George Lucas no longer owns Star Wars, but Disney's Star Wars sucks. Whose word matters more? According to you, whoever owns it gets to be right, but ownership could change, and if someone else buys it, they could wipe out all the canon if they wanted.
Disney decides what canon is, all the EU is gone and anything Lucas wants is also non canon. Now I hate Disney star wars and just enjoy things whether canon or non-canon. but that doesn't mean the sequel trilogy didn't happen. it did and it sucks.

[IMJ]

Do you really want me to go full aspie and go point by point? I will.

:lol::lol:

Dude, this is the funniest thing I've seen you post, OMG.

[Zog The Magnificent]

What official information? Do you really want me to go full aspie and go point by point? I will. Granted I don't like the idea of the 2012 turtles having that future and the implications of it but it's a good story arc and canon, i can't change it.

Every single thing I cited was from official sources or based on official sources.

Batman Beyond was always canon, it was always fans who said it might not because they didn't like bruce being a jaded old man. Later crossovers proved them wrong.

You are mistaken. Back when Batman Beyond was still on the air, the showrunners made many comments in both interviews and public comments on how Batman Beyond wasn't necessarily the definitive future. They always called it a "possible future," and it wasn't until the crossover episodes of Static Shock and Justice League that it was fully cemented as the definitive future.

first of all quoting wikipedia with obvious fan slant, not even worthy of being included in the current page of wikipedia grasping at straws.

While it is true that Wikipedia can be edited by anyone, the information is constantly checked over and verified, and is generally correct and accurate. I wouldn't use it in an academic paper, but for something like this it is perfectly servicable, and I cited every source it used in its citations.

So? Something being the "finale" doesn't mean it's the actual last episode.

This tweet was in specific response to people asking about whether or not Mutant Apocalypse was really the ending. This, combined with Ciero's comments on how he intended Mutant Apocalypse to be the ending, as well as Nickelodeon's comments and the fact that they rearranged the season to put it in the middle, clearly indicate that B&R was being treated as the ending and Mutant Apocalypse was rendered noncanon.

Where does it say it's non canon? It's a tale from the future.

You are correct that the word "noncanon" does not actually appear. However, combined with the other statements, Mutant Apocalypse clearly fits into both "beyond" and "future."

Not that it matters what some wagie working the social media account says, the account might be official but not necessarily what he types there. Social media managers get stuff wrong all the time.

Of course it matters. You can't just disregard it out of hand. This information came from an official source, and confirms that the special is considered noncanon by Nickelodeon.

Again, this means nothing

The alternate possiblities line and the fact that it corroborates the above comment regarding an AU adds further evidence that the special is considered noncanon.

First of all, that would be word of god and not necessarily screen canon. Second of all how would you reply to a fan who is basically saying they're going to commit sudoku because they're cartoon show for kids didn't end how they wanted it to end? AND even then he uses the word "could" which is a modal verb that expresses possibility at best and a vague statement of "for the audience to decide" AKA head canon. He sure didn't want to be in a news hit article of how a fan killed themselves because their headcanon is wrong.

Word of god is just as valid as on screen canon. If a creator clarifys something after the fact, as the creator of the work, and therefore the authority on it, anything they say has just as much bearing on the story as what is actually depicted. Auman's comments also both add credence to this idea, as well as the concept of Death of the Author, which at the very least, if you decide to disregard word of god, allows you to make your own conclusions. Personally, I believe a creator can give a definitive answer on what a work is or means, but not on what a person may get out of it.

How is this damaging? Anyone can write those synopsis and they often include wrong information all the time, most fandoms don't consider that type of information as canon. And even then it doesn't state it's not canon.

"Anyone" in this case is Nickelodeon, the current owners of the property, who are therefore at liberty to decide what is and isn't canon. There is no point in trying to speculate whether or not the information is "correct" or not. It came from an official source regarding a fictional property, and nothing about it contradicts anything in the show. Ergo, it is correct. And once again, while the specific word "noncanon" does not appear, it explicitly refers to the mutant apocalypse arc as being in "another dimension"; as in, a dimension other than the one where all of the show takes place. In other words, it is noncanon as far as the rest of the show is concerned.


Disney decides what canon is, all the EU is gone and anything Lucas wants is also non canon. Now I hate Disney star wars and just enjoy things whether canon or non-canon. but that doesn't mean the sequel trilogy didn't happen. it did and it sucks.

That wasn't the main point of that point. I know that Disney is currently in charge of determining canon. I was merely trying to explain why continuity is a tricky business with franchises. If Star Wars is ever sold to someone else, or heck, if the administration changes, they could easily render the movies noncanon, and in a way that they were never canon to begin with, just becoming weird elseworld tales. I think a better example would be a mainstream publisher like DC comics. In just one ongoing, a writer can write a story, only for the next writer to render it noncanon, only for the next writer to change it right back, only for one of their annual events to render the whole thing noncanon except for certain details which are still canon. When a work is in the hands of multiple people, canon is more of a guiding line than a hard and fast rule.

[sdp]

That's some impressive autism. regardless, still canon

[Leo656]

That's some impressive autism.

https://www.memecreator.org/static/images/memes/5244861.jpg

[IMJ]

I wanted to quote someone that made me laugh in this thread, but then I kept scrolling and laughin' and now I don't know who to quote! :lol:

[Zog The Magnificent]

That's some impressive autism. regardless, still canon

No need to resort to insults. Though I think that based on your response, you really don't have anything substantive to say, since it appears you can't really refute my evidence beyond declaring it doesn't count. Even in your longest post many of your refutations boiled down to this. Regardless, I've said all I need to say. By all available evidence and information, Mutant Apocalypse is officially noncanon. If you want to cling to the idea that it is canon, be my guest. At the end of the day it's a fictional story and people are going to count what they want to anyways. It's clear that you'll never change your opinion no matter what I present, and that this dialogue, one sided as it was, has run its course. So with that, I'm done talking about it. Off to other conversations!

[Zog The Magnificent]

So, in all honesty, how well do you think the Space Arc worked? For me, it was one of my favorites in the show, though not as good as the second half of season 4. I enjoyed seeing the different renditions of the various space characters, as well as Lord Dregg and Armaggon. I'll admit, it took a bit for me to get behind this verison of Dregg, but by the end he really grew on me, and I think he worked pretty well for his role. I also especially appreciated the more serialized format and the overall more serious tone, barring the occasionall filler episode ("The Weird World of Wyrm" comes to mind). I also thought that the character writing, particularly around Fugitoid's character arc, was excellent. My one gripe with that was them showing us he was still alive at the end, undercutting the sacrifice, but then never doing anything with it. And of course, it was nice to see the Triceratons in the villain role again. I think the only realy problem I have with the arc as a whole is that at the end, they're left with two sets of turtles, which they immediately brush away and then never talk about again. A bit rushed, in my opinion.

[Leo656]

No need to resort to insults. Though I think that based on your response, you really don't have anything substantive to say, since it appears you can't really refute my evidence beyond declaring it doesn't count. Even in your longest post many of your refutations boiled down to this. Regardless, I've said all I need to say. By all available evidence and information, Mutant Apocalypse is officially noncanon. If you want to cling to the idea that it is canon, be my guest. At the end of the day it's a fictional story and people are going to count what they want to anyways. It's clear that you'll never change your opinion no matter what I present, and that this dialogue, one sided as it was, has run its course. So with that, I'm done talking about it. Off to other conversations!

Saxon = Joke Account

I keep telling people this but they never seem to listen.

[Zog The Magnificent]

Saxon = Joke Account

I keep telling people this but they never seem to listen.

Okay, I actually didn't know that. But good to know for the future!

[Vegita-San]

OK, Season 3.

IMHO, this is where the show really goes off the rails. and starts to loose whatever cohesivness it had.

- an entire world believes that NYC is fine? yet aliens walk the streets and the city is basically dark and deserted? OK.

- the rest of the country seems to not really care and goes about business as normal.

- we went into the first half of the season. Foot to big, buried secrets, within the woods, croaking, terrible. race with the demon, eyes of the chimera, vision quest, in dreams. not as bad as I remember.

The second half of the season feels like a totally different series. seems like two show runners split the season in 2.

The Good - Pig and the Rhino, Battle for New York, Serpent Hunt, Return to New york, Clash of the Mutanimals, Turtles in Time, Tale of the Yokai, Creeping Doom, Fourfold Trap, Annihalation Earth.

The bad -
Casey Jones Vs the Underworld, the Noxious Avenger,

- the OK.....
Meet Mondo Gecko, Attack of the Mega Shredder, Dinsosaur seen in sewers...

for the last three, the mondo episode wasn't a bad retread of the 87 series. But Mondo himself is so pointless and useless that it makes the episode not needed. and deletes anything cool about the race that happens later.

I had pretty much forgotten then entire plot of the Mega Shredder episode. The actual plot itself wasn't bad. including the creation of the mega mutant. It's the mega mutant itself that gets stupid. from the 'the brain is the tounge' part to mikey surviving being eaten. and the rather pointless turtle mech creation. the entire battle just feels like filler.

dino in the sewers WOULD have been OK, but you don't feel for zog in this one. he regains his memories and his feelings and basically turns evil, negating the whole raph bonding thing. therefore his sacrifice feels flat and you don't care.

they also basically seem to forget about Krang Prime after this. She seems to vanish totally.

[Zog The Magnificent]

dino in the sewers WOULD have been OK, but you don't feel for zog in this one. he regains his memories and his feelings and basically turns evil, negating the whole raph bonding thing. therefore his sacrifice feels flat and you don't care.

they also basically seem to forget about Krang Prime after this. She seems to vanish totally.

Well, I mean, Kraang Prime dies, so it's no surprise that they stop using the character. The Kraang are pretty much beaten after Battle for New York, and they make one attempt at coming back before dying to the Triceratons. I don't think it's "forgotten" so much as "resolved."

I'm surprised you didn't like Dinosaur Seen in Sewers. I think that 2012's take was actually more realistic because of the fact that they turtles suffer a realistic consequence for what they did. It's something that's never really touched on in any other version, but it's kind of a messed up thing what they do to Zog. Here's a guy whose delusional and doesn't know what's going on, and the turtles take advantage of him and use him for their own purpose, resulting in his death. Zog in this version regains his sanity and rightly calls them out on it, which was also an effective twist since everyone, being familiar with the old stories, wasn't expecting it. Also, I don't really think his sacrifice fell flat because it wasn't really a sacrifice this time. He let himself die so the rest of the Triceratons could show up, and the emotional payoff is supposed to be less in his death and more in the turtles feeling guilty.

EDIT: I TOTALLY forgot about the super retromutagen. That part was also stupid. That was just "we couldn't think of a way to resolve this realistically, here's a solution we pulled out of our butt."

[TylerD]

A pretty fair analysis. Looking back, I think the show started off pretty strong with seasons 1 and 2 but went downhill on season 3 and the first half of the season 4, before getting better once again.

Exactly how I feel. I loved the first season, the next I really didn't care for..... I find myself going back and watching the first season quite often.

[Vegita-San]

So, Season 4.

I always enjoyed season 4. It felt MUCH more cohesive. it felt like a different team running it. even with the longer breaks, it didn't feel like anything was forgotten or over looked. the plot stayed consistent.

There really isn't a bad episode in the bunch of the space arc. From the Weird World of Worym (Their version of Q or Mr.Mxy), to the odd journey to the center of mikey's mind. Arena of Carnage is kind of boring, since we've seen it done before, but the rest are perfectly fine.

The only odd thing : How does Krang Sub Prime keep coming back to life? they kill him each time and somehow he always comes back. That's why I say they forgot about Krang Prime after season 3. He wasn't dead, the drome just sunk back to the ocean.

Even Dregg was a bit more likeable this time around. at first I thought it was a bit stupid that they made him more biological than technological....but it does separate him from the krang more. the only thing I didn't like with him was showing that he had a ....robot head? never gets mentioned again and didn't make much sense. and then they kill him off..supposedly. ( think he returns again somehow in season 5?)

on the second half now.

[The Great Saiyaman]

So, Season 4.

I always enjoyed season 4. It felt MUCH more cohesive. it felt like a different team running it. even with the longer breaks, it didn't feel like anything was forgotten or over looked. the plot stayed consistent.

There really isn't a bad episode in the bunch of the space arc. From the Weird World of Worym (Their version of Q or Mr.Mxy), to the odd journey to the center of mikey's mind. Arena of Carnage is kind of boring, since we've seen it done before, but the rest are perfectly fine.

The only odd thing : How does Krang Sub Prime keep coming back to life? they kill him each time and somehow he always comes back. That's why I say they forgot about Krang Prime after season 3. He wasn't dead, the drome just sunk back to the ocean.

Even Dregg was a bit more likeable this time around. at first I thought it was a bit stupid that they made him more biological than technological....but it does separate him from the krang more. the only thing I didn't like with him was showing that he had a ....robot head? never gets mentioned again and didn't make much sense. and then they kill him off..supposedly. ( think he returns again somehow in season 5?)

on the second half now.

The first half of the fourth season takes back six months in the past, so Kraang Subprime hasn't been taken out by the Triceratons yet.

Plus he was send to the Mirage Turtles dimension in the crossover episode which also could well save his ass from getting killed.

[Vegita-San]

yes, b ut even before that, Bishop supposedly took him out in dimension X AND he came back in transd turtles. So, regardless if he's been killed, somehow he keeps coming back. most likely because they enjoyed godfrieds performance alot.

[The Great Saiyaman]

yes, b ut even before that, Bishop supposedly took him out in dimension X AND he came back in transd turtles. So, regardless if he's been killed, somehow he keeps coming back. most likely because they enjoyed godfrieds performance alot.

OR, they went with what the IDW series of TMNT established.
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-aax31pppgnk/Wfp59RFEegI/AAAAAAAAS6U/tQoc351yiSoUEDJ69Xm0W8_k66Ss9amxACLcBGAs/s1600/75-4.png
Leatherhead eating Krang.

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/58c35f74d1758e424ee76710/1576084618152-ZLDFK1SLABL41DMSCCV6/Screenshot_20191211-120657_Comics.jpg?format=500w
And a few issues later...

Extremely resilient the Utrom species sure is...

[IMJ]

I abandoned the IDW Turtles stuff wayyyyy back with issue 50. But those panels just above are pretty intriguing to be honest! :o

[The Great Saiyaman]

I abandoned the IDW Turtles stuff wayyyyy back with issue 50. But those panels just above are pretty intriguing to be honest! :o

Look them up online, there are plenty of online comics sites which have them, that way you can check them out without having to actually buy the issues.

[IMJ]

Look them up online, there are plenty of online comics sites which have them, that way you can check them out without having to actually buy the issues.

I might!

Honestly I dropped the title with 50 out of complete boredom with the series. It wasn't until after I dropped it that I started hearing about the woke SJW crap permeating the title. I'd throw some money at it again out of story interest, but I don't give a dime to Woke $#!(, and that's what the title seems geared for from word-of-mouth.

If you have a recommendation to sample a digital copy though, please PM me and I might follow your advice. :tcool:

[Zog The Magnificent]

yes, b ut even before that, Bishop supposedly took him out in dimension X AND he came back in transd turtles. So, regardless if he's been killed, somehow he keeps coming back. most likely because they enjoyed godfrieds performance alot.

I think at that point it was more just a recurring joke, sort of like how Joker kept clearly dying in the DCAU but then would show up again later no worse for wear.

[CyberCubed]

I really enjoyed all the eps back on Earth in the backhalf of Season 4 too. The writers knew the show was wrapping up at that point so they were bringing back a ton of characters to close out their plotlines and this continues into Season 5.

I love the gangster characters, Don Vizioso I think his name was? Bebop/Rocksteady were great in all these eps too.

[sdp]

You'll get through season 5 faster, don't forget to watch The Wasteland Warrior, The Impossible Desert, carmagedddon at the end since it's the last story of 2012.

[The Great Saiyaman]

You'll get through season 5 faster, don't forget to watch The Wasteland Warrior, The Impossible Desert, carmagedddon at the end since it's the last story of 2012.

But I have to say, that that ending was a let down. There were too many plots unresolved.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

But I have to say, that that ending was a let down. There were too many plots unresolved.

As much I wish some of the plots were resolved, I thought that ending with all four turtles re-United in Oasis was really touching and bittersweet. Especially that final shot of them posing for a photo with Splinter, and then the image of the Mirage turtle holding the sign.

[Turo602]

I thought this show was just okay. What I remember most about binging the show though, is just how hard it is to sit through sometimes. Way too much filler, plus it can be a little annoying at times, and story arcs just dragged on for too long. Everything always came back to the Kraang and it got tiring. Especially the stupid way in which they speak.

Arcs that I thought had some great potential, like the North Hampton arc, space arc, Usagi, and the Apocalypse stuff just sort of fizzled out for me with how long they went on. I also thought they over did it with mutations and I wasn't a fan of teenage April and Casey and April having super powers just to make her relevant and part of the action.

Donnie and Mikey were also completely butchered. They went full retard with Michelangelo and everyone pretty much acknowledges how stupid and incompetent he is and Donatello lusting for April was very weird and just made him come off creepy and unlikable with how often he blows up and gets angry.

But as much as I'll always prefer the 2k3 series, even I have to admit that this series did some bold and cool stuff. Even as a fan of the 80s cartoon, with how much 2k3 distanced itself from all its wackiness, it was pretty cool to see a lot of that stuff redone here while still trying to maintain a more serious tone and unique identity. I was so bored by this franchise by the time I started watching this, and even though I wasn't 100% in love with this iteration, it was refreshing to see something that very clearly had a lot of passion and heart put into it.

It's definitely worth a watch for any turtles fan and it's far more respectable than anything that has come out since. It will never be as beloved as the 80s cartoon or as great as 2k3, but it was solid enough to be considered a substantial part of the franchise.

[sdp]

I think like most shows it's a different experience to watch it week by week since things satay to become tedious than if you binge watch and are able to see the while season stuff play off

[CyberCubed]

Well I did both, I watched each ep when it was new in their first airings. Then after that I rewatched the show twice in full with about 4-5 episodes a day.

So I've seen the show in total 3 times already. I should probably start a 4th rewatch sometime, probably won't till next year though.

[ABrown]

I really enjoyed all the eps back on Earth in the backhalf of Season 4 too. The writers knew the show was wrapping up at that point so they were bringing back a ton of characters to close out their plotlines and this continues into Season 5.

Don't forget the second half of season four introduced Shinigami. The best thing to come out of this series.


https://media3.giphy.com/media/3oz8xvBdJaQY208S2I/giphy.gif?cid=790b76116750759ca72cd20a6e6f080e8eef 39220fcb2635&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g

[newfan]

Don't forget the second half of season four introduced Shinigami. The best thing to come out of this series.
]

For you two maybe, she was not that interesting to me never mind being the best thing in the series..

Karai returning here was a plus for me.

I liked this half of season 4 and of course the finale, I prefer it to the space arc which started to get long for me in the end. I liked the change of scenery both times but then I liked to get back to the main story after a while.
I prefer Shredder as a threat without needing to be Super Shredder but I can see they were going for upping the threat and point of no return for him (though he was pretty gone in his hate anyway)

[Zog The Magnificent]

Don't forget the second half of season four introduced Shinigami. The best thing to come out of this series.


https://media3.giphy.com/media/3oz8xvBdJaQY208S2I/giphy.gif?cid=790b76116750759ca72cd20a6e6f080e8eef 39220fcb2635&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g

I'm gonna have to disagree there. While I love season 4, it's my favorite in the show, I think that Shinigami was the most useless character they introduced. She added nothing to the dynamic, had no interesting development, and was consistently the first to get taken out in a fight in basically every episode she was in, after which she would stop appearing in the episode. It go to the point of me wondering why she was even there since she never did anything. She just existed.

[The Great Saiyaman]

I'm gonna have to disagree there. While I love season 4, it's my favorite in the show, I think that Shinigami was the most useless character they introduced. She added nothing to the dynamic, had no interesting development, and was consistently the first to get taken out in a fight in basically every episode she was in, after which she would stop appearing in the episode. It go to the point of me wondering why she was even there since she never did anything. She just existed.

Yeah, she basically was the Yamcha of that series.
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11143/111430233/7545680-yamcha.png

But she did provide with more background story on Karai, a slight glimpse in who she was back in Japan. (I'm sorry to bother all of you again about my comic) but Shinigami inspired me to create a more fleshed out back story on Karai's past and what kind of training she had from both Tatsu and her sensei from the IDW comic book series: Toshiro.
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-k9M8UrE5gTs/WXNbPP_CEBI/AAAAAAAASjA/Z10cdbhsYBAT1bZmR9mLGECLEUVnq1M-gCLcBGAs/s1600/12-3.png
Toshiro dealing with Koya, his attitude here would have fit perfectly in the 2012 series as a counter balance from Tatsu. I can so see him training Bradford. It's a missed opportunity he didn't appear in the series.

[Vegita-San]

I have to agree. Shinigami was a weird character. not really all that useful, although I could see Karai needing a lieutenant if she where to take over the foot clan.

Other than that, she wasn't really all that useful.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

I like the idea of Shinigami and I think she had potential, but one thing that annoys me to no end is how she easily beats all 4 turtles in her first appearance, especially when you consider how the turtles are well trained at that point and Shinigami never shows such a feat again.

[CyberCubed]

She was clearly included in the show to give Karai a lesbian lover. Anyone could see the subtext a mile away.

[The Great Saiyaman]

She was clearly included in the show to give Karai a lesbian lover. Anyone could see the subtext a mile away.

Err... Not really, her flirt sessions with Leo were more frequent after Shini's introduction.

[Zog The Magnificent]

She was clearly included in the show to give Karai a lesbian lover. Anyone could see the subtext a mile away.

Karai by the end of the show clearly liked Leo and said as much. She had more flirting with Michelangelo than anyone else. There was no real subtext between her and Karai, and before you come at me with the one shot from the music video, that was noncanon and was more just part of music video choreography then anything actually indicative of actualy characterization.

I remember a time when characters of the same gender could hang out without everyone immediately assuming gay. Whatever happened to just being good friends?

[newfan]

Why shini is there at all makes sense, as Vegita San pointed out. After everything that went down Karai went off to find old friend she could trust to help her overthrow Shredder, then she'd need a second in command. Just as others have said she wasn't really a strong character, just there, came in at the end to fit the story but there was little to her after her intro otherwise. (though I suspect that isn't what ABrown meant in his post... just a guess)

Course if they had gone the other way and cast a shadow over Karai I wouldn't like that. I liked that the writers did still show Karai in eps without her so that she stood out on own still.

So the watch through is almost done, for the main series/story anyway.

[sdp]

Shinigami seemed a random addition, she was barely introduced properly and just stayed relevant for less than the average new recurring baddie, then she was just there. I never understood why she was even added since she didn't add much and her witch look just didn't seem to mesh well.

[CyberCubed]

She was Shinigami the lesbiani to me.

[Vegita-San]

So the watch through is almost done, for the main series/story anyway.

I tried watching it about a year ago, and it stopped at season 2. this time I managed to get alot farther.

I will say the show DOES work alot better without the long breaks. some things don't seem as forgotten, other things seem better planned out. it helps to view it all at once.

and yet, other episodes I still have no desire to ever watch again.

[newfan]

I tried watching it about a year ago, and it stopped at season 2. this time I managed to get alot farther.

I will say the show DOES work alot better without the long breaks. some things don't seem as forgotten, other things seem better planned out. it helps to view it all at once.

and yet, other episodes I still have no desire to ever watch again.

So it fractionally improved for you in parts, barring some of season 3 :) Where there were eps you really just didn't like a re-watch likely wouldn't change that much.

[Vegita-San]

yep, for the most part. things I thought where problems with big breaks don't seem as bad. filler episodes that where annoying didn't seem as bad with SOME this time around.

[IndigoErth]

Just for a sec gonna be that person who randomly throws something in mostly unrelated to a present conversation...

Anyone see that new ad (bumper?) Nick has? One of those they make that's a bunch of bits from various shows thrown together. Show has been over for the better part of four years yet they included this TMNT in it, and Leo even has the last piece. (In contrast, not one bit of Rise even with a Netflix thing pending.)

[CyberCubed]

Well it's not surprising, Rise was swept under the rug. Also we're at the point now where Nick 2012 is almost a decade old (hard to believe it'll be 10 years old next year), and now all the kids who grew up with it will be nostalgic for it.

This is why I always believed we would eventually get a reunion movie for the show at some point, and the 10th anniversary would be a good time to revisit the series. Imaging capitalizing of the nostalgia of the kids who grew up with the show, a single movie special would be ideal.

[sdp]

To put it into perspective, someone who was watching the show as a kid at 9 years old (the target audience for the show) would now be 18 years old. Legal adults, some might be married already, some might have kids already.

To put it into perspective, the 2012 show is as old as Rugrats, Doug, Ren and Stimpy and all the original Nicktoons from 1991 were in the year 2000 and in the year 2000 people were already posting nostalgia of the early 90s on sites like X-Entertainment and other nostalgia websites from the 2000's. The 2012 show is now closer in terms of years of when the Egyptian pyramids were first built than it is to the present.

[CyberCubed]

What's weird is that 2012 doesn't even seem that long ago. Like when we were IN 2012 and I said 2002 was a decade ago, back then THAT felt like a long time ago.

But now that we're almost in 2022...saying 2012 was a decade ago...just feels wrong. 2012 feels like a few months ago to me.

[newfan]

The older kids who watched from the start would be grown up now but then you have the younger kids who came across it while it was still airing, so there would be a mix. Maybe not little kids with it not airing much now (does it still air on re-runs over there?)

So far as Nick using this version over Rise sometimes with merch, Rise is no-longer running either and this one was their first and ... is it fair to say bigger version of the two?... as in it ran longer and there was so much more merch made for it.

[The Great Saiyaman]

Let's talk about the Turtles themselves in the 2012 series.

Leonardo
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/7f/e6/45/7fe645e1ae1a209c928a5c74f4f72553.jpg
- First of all, the fact that of all of the Turtles, he went through the biggest personality growth is one of the most memorable of the 2012 Leo. He went from this happy-go-lucky Space Heroes fan boy to this brooding "Am-I-making-the-right-decisions?" strategist. (And to this tyrannical "Maestro" ruling the post apocalyptic landscape.) To be honest, I can't envision Jason Biggs voicing the later seasons' Leo, he simply doesn't have the grief which became the main fuel behind Leo's character changes.
https://sengalboy.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/tmnt-14-11.jpg
- Karai. Well, let's be perfectly honest, this was the only one of the pairings in this show that didn't feel forced. And it wasn't smooth sailing either, the first major shift in his personality came from watching her fall into the mutagen and later when she got the mind bending worm, he was faced with impossible choices.
- Sensei. As Karai said "You always liked to boss others around, don't you?" in "The forgotten swordsman" But it's more than just that, as the Sensei, Leo's responsibility to his clan is a heavier burden than just being the leader of the squad. He's not perfect and he KNOWS he's not perfect, which is probably the best attribute of his personality
- Compared to the FW Leo and the 2003 Leo. One of the funniest scenes of the crossover episode was when the FW Leo kept shouting "Turtle Power" to 2012's Leo's annoyance, until at the end of the episode where he actually yelled it himself. The reason why this is funny is because the 2012 Leo being reminded of his old self, when he would shout out ridiculous intros during fights.
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mcaxemikI01qhdexto2_500.gif
Perhaps it was meeting that counterpart that allowed him to channel his old self again.
Compared to the 2003 Leo, he's more fun loving, as the 2003 Leo was much stricter. The 2003 Leo hardly had any fun.

Donatello
https://images6.fanpop.com/image/photos/36100000/2012-Teenage-Mutant-Ninja-Turtles-image-2012-teenage-mutant-ninja-turtles-36153416-553-530.jpg
- This version of Donatello had a personality change from the Get-go, as in he was VERY different from his FW and 2003 counterparts, which were much more subdued and quieter. This Donnie actually gets mad and screams at the others, which certainly in the 2003 you weren't likely to ever see happen.
- His Will-they-or-won't-they interaction with April has been mentioned in this thread a couple of times. But most of the time, his interaction with her weren't him being this blubbering idiot, as he was actually quite comfortable with being around her.
- But I also have to point out that Donnie was Neurotic and prone to feeling really guilty when something went wrong. Such as when he failed to save The Pulverizer and how devastated he felt wen the latter was frozen solid and seemingly forgotten about.
https://i.pinimg.com/236x/e1/66/7d/e1667d50ebf4460876ccbd606b8cc3b2--im-hurt-donatello.jpg
- Having mentioned that, there were a couple of very notable instances where Donnie took on a leader role and actually did a good job at doing so. I'd say that the best example was in "Monkey brains" his mission with April to investigate Dr. Falco and him fighting the latter at the end of the episode.

Michelangelo
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/1f/74/b4/1f74b4de870c575f1dfb87bfded3ac30.gif
- It's debatable how much of Mikey's screw up behavior was an act, as there were plenty of examples during the show's run where it's on full display that he's much more capable than others (And he himself) give him credit for. In "Never say Xever" for example, during the bar fight, he's seen knocking Sid around without even looking his way. Or in "Pizza face" where he takes on his brother and Splinter and is actually besting all of them.
- But act or not, when Mikey is Goofing off, he REALLY is goofing off.
- Greg Cipes.
x10hX8WFXV4
Perfect casting.

Raphael
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ae/4a/74/ae4a741a0f90210aaa12fe59179e37f0.png
- I'm going to start this off with a quote said by Alopex from the IDW series.
https://majorspoilers.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/TMNT110_pr-5.jpg
I've pointed out that the IDW series itself has taken a lot of influence from the 2012 series, certainly the issues drawn by Matteus Santolouco where he depicts the turtles pretty much as their 2012 counterparts with Leo having his sword at his right shoulder, Mikey having a shorter Bandana, Donnie having a gap tooth and Raph having a crack in his shell (A different shape but still) And the most notable thing about Raphael in the 2012 series is his very distinct feminine side. Something that the IDW series has adopted too.
- But not just behaving like a girl but also behaving like a mom, always providing a shoulder to cry on if somebody needs it and taking care of Spike and later Chompy. After Spike turned into Slash we see Raph sitting there with Spike's last lettuce leaf, mourning the loss of his pet turtle he care so much about.
https://i.pinimg.com/600x315/06/0c/ec/060cec3f4cdf45991fdf46a7b1a83686.jpg
- The funniest expression of Raph acting like a girl is whenever he's around Mona Lisa, as he's pretty much the woman in that relationship. And has no issue whatsoever with being so, he tries to come across as this manly man but in the meantime...
- But this Raphael also reminds me very much of Grimlock from the eighties Transformers series as in he's into having big power but hates it when others abuse big power. Which also brings us to his main character trait.
- He's afraid that he'll put others in danger thanks to his outbursts.
https://sengalboy.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/tmnt-14-12.jpg
It happened quite a few times that he gets the team in trouble thanks to his explosive personality and he always feel guilty whenever that happened.
https://sengalboy.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/tmnt-14-18.jpg
"I said I'M SORRY!"
- And, as the Mutant Apocalypse saga showed, he's actually quite good at leading the team, despite being quite scared about taking on the responsibility of doing so in earlier seasons.

[IMJ]

Does anyone remember whether or not this show was rendered for 4k? Probably wasn't....

I'm still down for a Blu Ray release for this series though.

[CyberCubed]

There's no blu-ray sets, but it was on itunes in HD.

[Turo602]

I'm still down for a Blu Ray release for this series though.

Same. There's no excuse why this or the 2003 series hasn't been released in full. I hate when they do volumes and season by season releases because those are a lot harder to keep up with for the average consumer and if sales flop, like morons, they think people aren't interested in it. Meanwhile, stuff like Avatar and Korra have gotten nice complete series releases in various forms.

[sdp]

Same. There's no excuse why this or the 2003 series hasn't been released in full.
no one buys physical media

[Leo656]

Bull f*cking sh*t. :lol: Jesus, just stop already.

[IMJ]

Bull f*cking sh*t. :lol: Jesus, just stop already.

I think he blows his wad every time he types nonsense. It's just how some people are. Blowing your wad can be very influential - especially when it happens simply for routinely typing nonsense, I mean c'mon man..... cut the wad-blowing guy a break! 8)

[sdp]

Buying DVDs today is like those weirdo old couple who kept buying VHS even in 2006
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/jpSw4VEeAmLdP3akpDgytMD9NlUDWFyJ5-NIpPi6G5DyOLXFOboK6SkDJa6haG99cOs-rrj5HKO-pbglwMKgW_E7D6GhM35oOIkNZkq9NCNyNoe95gWvlE0jyXA4HX Mu9w

here we have a more updated chart of DVDs up to 2019
https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-232e80c8799065b00fa310550354a72c

BluRay never surpassed DVDs in sales, less so if we divide Bluray and 4K bluray which people really should since they are two different formats.

https://static1.ddigest.com/images/bdsales/mpn_20191207.jpg

I guess BluRays could potentialy outsell DVD at one point, to see who is selling 5 copies of something instead of 3.

https://cdn.statcdn.com/Infographic/images/teaser/15894.jpeg

I mean I used to have this debate back in the early 2010s and it was hard convincing everyone but I don't think nowadays anyone would argue otherwise. There's a reason why the DVD/BR sections in stores have gotten tiny to non-existant over the years when at one point it was half of best buy. Obviously I don't mean it literally that no one is, but it's a niche market of mothers buying DVDs for the kids hence why you see a bunch of kid content in crappy releases or for the videophile/enthusiast who still care about physical media. The rest of the world moved on.

[Leo656]

Which is why every single movie and most TV shows gets a physical media release across multiple formats, with no signs of that slowing down anytime soon. These profit-minded billion-dollar corporations spend all this money producing, manufacturing and shipping these things because there's NO significant money in it, and some rando on the internet has the charts and graphs to "prove" it.

OR you're just a f*cking moron. Y'know, whichever. Simplest explanation is usually the correct one, so that's the one I'm going with.

The fact is, the only things that don't get a physical release are MOSTLY things so niche there's no significant market for them. TMNT is not actually very popular, so that would fall under this explanation, especially for things like "Rise" which were an abject failure. The 2012 show would be more deserving, but they could also claim somewhat-rightly that "We already put that show on disc, kinda". Like no, it wasn't Blu-ray, but their research probably shows that the number of people who already bought it once on DVD who would do so again for Blu-ray is insignificant. Plus Nick as a general rule is incompetent as all hell when it comes to putting stuff out on disc, and have been for ages. They're perfectly fine leaving money on the table so long as they don't have to do any work.

I'd say "They'd definitely do a disc release if they saw money in it," but as far back as the early-2000s (when "nobody buys discs anymore" wasn't even an "excuse") Nick was pretty stupid with what they put out and what they didn't, so I don't even think it's about money, because they were leaving money on the table back then, too. I just think they can't be bothered to give a sh*t about much of anything.

[IMJ]

Buying DVDs today is like those weirdo old couple who kept buying VHS even in 2006

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

We need an emoticon with a turtle holding a sign that says "Funny Post!"

Either way SDP, saying "nobody buys DVD's anymore" is a lot different than saying "sales of physical media has declined". And even then your statement squashes any valid conversation as to why you'd still want to buy physical media in many instances.

I've got my share of digital media at home served wirelessly by a media server and even then I'd say that in many cases I'd rather own the physical media for a myriad of reasons, man. And I pick up a lot of that streaming media here through an OPPO UDP-203; but the 4k disc sources that thing can churn out blows away any source that comes in over the air. I'm sure that given the rise of streaming media, we are entering a phase where the people who still want the physical media either have disposable income, or they are home theater enthusiasts.

The rest of the world outside of those enthusiast circles are content to consume through their crappy Netflix stream on their computer or "amazing" Best Buy house-brand T.V. that they'd report "looks pretty good!" and not know any better. People who have driven Honda Accords their entire life would swear it's pretty fast, even to a guy with a new ZL1 Camaro, man. Don't get me wrong - I don't believe in frowning on what someone has or doesn't have, but even that philosophy doesn't change the fact that ignorance is bliss.

OR you're just a f*cking moron. Y'know, whichever. Simplest explanation is usually the correct one, so that's the one I'm going with.

Wouldn't it be f'n funny if we met this guy at some.... Turtle Convention and he turned out to be this pretty cool cat? HAHAHAHA! Wouldn't surprise me - I've seen weirder $#!( happen.

[Leo656]

If you people think I'm a mean person based on the stuff I actually post, you should see the stuff I f*cking delete. That's all I'm gonna say.

[IMJ]

If you people think I'm a mean person based on the stuff I actually post, you should see the stuff I f*cking delete. That's all I'm gonna say.

LMAO! Leo I was talking to you about meeting SDP. Not about meeting you at a convention. :lol:

OMG.

I was saying that SDP, even being an idiot $#!( poster might surprise everyone and be a cool cat.

[Leo656]

No, I know, I made my comment before you made your Edit.

Seriously, though. Some of the stuff I post and then delete is so horrific that I only take it down because I'm legit afraid that God would punish me for saying such awful things by having them happen to me, instead.

It's just that... well, I just plain don't have any other way of expressing my absolute disgust with some of the people here. The wrong f*cking people ate the Tide pods. Or at least, not enough of the "right" people did.

Anyways. "Turtle Conventions" would have to be a thing for your hypothetical scenario to happen. And as we all know... wait for it... TMNT isn't actually very popular. :trazz: Y'all can hate me, I'm gonna keep saying it until it stops being true. Especially since other people boldly and repeatedly claim much more stupid and provably-false things than that around here.

[IMJ]

You know that several of us have talked about it... it's clearly a unique fandom. I mean, dude people have entire threads devoted to furries and one guy pretends all of his friends are residing in a NECA thread and makes life-complaint and woe-is-me-videos on YouTube.

It's.... you know... a unique fandom.

[Turo602]

Anyways. "Turtle Conventions" would have to be a thing for your hypothetical scenario to happen. And as we all know... wait for it... TMNT isn't actually very popular. :trazz: Y'all can hate me, I'm gonna keep saying it until it stops being true. Especially since other people boldly and repeatedly claim much more stupid and provably-false things than that around here.

They cancelled all the TMNT conventions because they didn't like all the gross and suspect 40 year olds gathering around a children's event.

[IMJ]

They cancelled all the TMNT conventions because they didn't like all the gross and suspect 40 year olds gathering around a children's event.


If that's true then they would be doing the same for.... basically any pop culture convention.... :lol:

[Turo602]

If that's true then they would be doing the same for.... basically any pop culture convention.... :lol:

I'm telling ya, man. They already got Gobo.

[IMJ]

I'm telling ya, man. They already got Gobo.

I don't think I've ever even seen a kid at C2E2.....

[sdp]

These profit-minded billion-dollar corporations spend all this money producing, manufacturing and shipping these things because there's NO significant money in it, and some rando on the internet has the charts and graphs to "prove" it.


Of course there's a profit it used to cost something like $0.07 a disc for a manufacturer, I'm sure prices haven't changed much. Even when you count the whole product life cycle it should still be a few dollars at most. But people aren't buying them so it is so little in profits it's not even worth highlighting in their fiscal quarters.

DVD sales peaked in 2006 and have only gone down since then, that's 15 years of a downward trend and even to as far as I could get information they still outsell Blu-Rays (and that's BR and 4K BR combined which are two different formats). Streaming outperforms physical by such a shockingly huge margin to argue otherwise is just ridiculous.

I used to get these type of responses in the early 2010s when people were still holding on to their physical media collections and not understanding the downward trend but come on we're in the 2020s, this isn't some secret. It's like arguing with someone that the internet is the future, when in the 2020s it's now all about how blockchains are disrupting the markets now and will continue to do so for the rest of the decade. Then again some people still think Mattel actually owns He-Man.

[Leo656]

Then again some people still think Mattel actually owns He-Man.

Jesus, stop. :lol:

[Vegita-San]

Season 4 and Season 1 are probably my favorite of the show, because they seemed the most stable, even with the long breaks.

Earths Last stand was an interesting twist, because thanks to one word from leonardo, splinter had enough intuition to survive one more time.

City at War should have been renamed something else. Foot Reborn, because the title didn't really fit.

Insecta was a nice little baxter finale. Bat in the Belfry, while goofy, was a good batman rip off, and the last 7 episodes tied everything together nicely. The only one that didn't really fit was mutant gangland.

And it took a NICKELODEAN show to finally kill off shredder and splinter of all things, when simply chopping off his head took a fox sensors job a mere ten or so years earlier. go figure.

Season 5 introduces tatsu, sadly for only one show really. we get alot of ghostbusters references. and a final appearance by Splinter. Shredder's sudden change of heart going back willingly STILL doesn't make alot of sense. But I guess they needed to finish the episode somehow. tiger claws truce did, however.

on to the rest.

[CyberCubed]

The opening 4-parter of Season 5 is one of my favorite arcs of the show, I'm surprised they were able to cram so many storylines and returning characters into just 4 episodes.

[newfan]

The opening 4-parter of Season 5 is one of my favorite arcs of the show, I'm surprised they were able to cram so many storylines and returning characters into just 4 episodes.

That arc is my favourite of season 5, but then it is still attached to the main story, I still feel I would have preferred it last just due to tying up the characters and we would have had time before Shredder returning. I guess the idea was to close up loose ends at the start and then move onto tales.
Tatsu would have been a good character to use earlier but I liked the arc with him here.

Not sure exactly the order I would rank the seasons off the top of my head but 1,2 and 4 would come up stronger then and 3 and 5.

Vegita San, I'm not sure if I am misreading your comment about the beheading, did someone get fired to trying to do that previously? or was it the beheading in 2k3?

[sdp]

2K3 has shredder getting beheaded and it aired on Fox Box at the time, so I guess that's what he's referring to. I didn't know they fired a censor over that, especially since Shredder picks up the helmet at the end of the episode.

[CyberCubed]

The difference is during Season 1 of the 2k3 series we didn't know Shredder was an Utrom yet, so when Leonardo slashed off his head people thought he was human. Then at the end of the episode his body stands up and picks up his head, so people were speculating he was immortal or something.

The Utrom reveal wasn't until Season 2, so back then it was a bit surprising. The Nick series on the other hand DID allow Leonardo to slash off Shredder's head, so they actually did it for *real* this time.

I think it's also a sign of changing of the times. Censors were still very hard on cartoons in the early 2000's (although less than the 90's), but then in the 2010 decade cartoons have been pushing boundaries more with violence, gay/lesbian relationships, and so forth. I know most of the stuff seen in cartoons nowadays would have never been allowed in the shows I watched as a kid.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

The difference is during Season 1 of the 2k3 series we didn't know Shredder was an Utrom yet, so when Leonardo slashed off his head people thought he was human. Then at the end of the episode his body stands up and picks up his head, so people were speculating he was immortal or something.

The Utrom reveal wasn't until Season 2, so back then it was a bit surprising. The Nick series on the other hand DID allow Leonardo to slash off Shredder's head, so they actually did it for *real* this time.

I think it's also a sign of changing of the times. Censors were still very hard on cartoons in the early 2000's (although less than the 90's), but then in the 2010 decade cartoons have been pushing boundaries more with violence, gay/lesbian relationships, and so forth. I know most of the stuff seen in cartoons nowadays would have never been allowed in the shows I watched as a kid.

Between Return to New York aired in early October 2003, and unti Secret Origins aired in mid-late Janury 2004, some people thought it was a Human Shredder in an Utrom-built exoskeleton.

[sdp]

In just a few months this show will be a decade old. What was the revival of a franchise that had been dead and now it is dead again. The 2012 show is the only real success Nick has had with the franchise in the 13 years they've owned it.

[The Great Saiyaman]

I might!

Honestly I dropped the title with 50 out of complete boredom with the series. It wasn't until after I dropped it that I started hearing about the woke SJW crap permeating the title. I'd throw some money at it again out of story interest, but I don't give a dime to Woke $#!(, and that's what the title seems geared for from word-of-mouth.

If you have a recommendation to sample a digital copy though, please PM me and I might follow your advice. :tcool:

I'm sorry it took me a long time to get back with you on that, but PM send

[IMJ]

In just a few months this show will be a decade old. What was the revival of a franchise that had been dead and now it is dead again. The 2012 show is the only real success Nick has had with the franchise in the 13 years they've owned it.

SDP provides a post where every sentence is true and poignant. I'll be darned.... cover me in chocolate and call me gobbsmacked and stunned....

I'm sorry it took me a long time to get back with you on that, but PM send

's cool! TY! 8)

[CyberCubed]

It's also probably why they shouldn't have ended the show so soon, it could have lasted at least 7 seasons.

[Zog The Magnificent]

It's also probably why they shouldn't have ended the show so soon, it could have lasted at least 7 seasons.

That is the worst kind of thinking. Stories should end when they reach their end. They shouldn't continue just for the sake of being longer. If there's more story to tell, then take as long as you need, but no longer. This sort of thinking is what led to all the franchise zombies we have now.

[CyberCubed]

7 seasons isn't that long though, it's the standard length for a show. There are more stories that could have been told (or comic adaptions or other characters they could have brought in) afterward.

[Zog The Magnificent]

7 seasons isn't that long though, it's the standard length for a show. There are more stories that could have been told (or comic adaptions or other characters they could have brought in) afterward.

I dunno, 7 seasons roughly equates to 7 years. That's a pretty long time. And I don't really think there's any one "standard" length of a TV show. Gravity Falls is near perfect, and it was 2 seasons, 40 episodes. Adventure Time took 9 (or 10) seasons. Generator Rex took 3, same with Avatar. Samurai Jack had 5. I could go on. The point is, a good story need only take as long as it needs to tell it's tale. Sure, TMNT could have gone on for longer, but that's true of just about anything. Just look at The Simpsons. You can churn out episodes for as long as you want, but eventually you run out of worthwhile ideas. They could have kept going and done more adaptations or episodes, but did they really need too? 2012 told its main story in 4 seasons and a TV movie. I say let things go out on a high note and fade into a fond memory, rather than parading a corpse around, which only gets worse the longer you do it, and makes everyone sick of it eventually. I think 2012 had as much as it needed. Probably a little more than it needed.

[CyberCubed]

The 2k3 series lasted 7 seasons and 156 episodes, I thought the Nick show (which was a lot more popular with mainstream audiences) would last at least as long.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

In just a few months this show will be a decade old

Not until September 2022.

[Vegita-San]

So, all but done. only really have the renet arc to watch.

I'd rank my favorite seasons as 1, 4, 5, 2 and 3. 5 wasn't bad. apart from the goofy Mad Max parody done purely out of spite to make sure no one else 'messed with the universe'. what THAT needed to make it better was more back story on the mutagen bomb and how things went down. we never found out what happened to karai, april and the other mutants already mutated. we never found out who launched the bomb or why. We never found out how the world got so deserted so fast so it all looked like nevada. About the only clue we got was that apparently casey got beheaded at one point and raph kept his skull for some reason. while the thing was goofy, it was at least interesting in a what if sort of way.

Yojimbo was probably the best, and with an episode written by stan saki. this usagi is a tad on the boring side being so straight laced, but he's not a bad character. and when it's all done, you wish there was more.

The Return of Shredder arc was probably the most pointless. yeah, we got 'hot head' who was kind of cool. but demon shredder lasted one episode, and did himself in for no reason at all. arguably, you could say that he did it because mikey held the seal and ordered everything back to normal...so he commanded super shredder too...but that wasn't well explained. best part of that was the short reunion with spirit splinter at the end.

Bebop and Rocksteady arc was odd. it was as close to a straight up classic episode as we'll get. although I still don't like how the old turtles are shown as 'worthless' compared to their modern counterparts, when the 2k12 turtles are just as goofy, if not more so than they ever where in some cases. but, it was a nice way to end the series, and far nicer than mutant wasteland.

don't remember much of the monster arc, other than the fact that it was yet ANOTHER excuse for this crews odd fascination for horror and fantasy elements to surface.


All in all, as we've later found out, we could have had MUCH worse a turtle series. While 2003 will always be the high bench mark for me (Even FF and BTTS), 2012 was a close second. it just needed FAR less breaks to be enjoyable...a LITTLE more tighter planning so things didn't have loose ends. and it could have been even better.

Now the question is, do I want to slog through Rise for the first time?

[sdp]

And you used to hate the show right Vegita? Cool to see someone's opinion change. I also rank it after 2k3 and 1987 but it's a good show despite the things that annoy me.

Bebop and Rocksteady arc was odd. it was as close to a straight up classic episode as we'll get. although I still don't like how the old turtles are shown as 'worthless' compared to their modern counterparts, when the 2k12 turtles are just as goofy, if not more so than they ever where in some cases.


The second crossover was a mistake, while it's funny it treats the 1987 turtles as worthless, not as bad as Turtles Forever but the first crossover they had was done so well, they should've just left it at that.

[Vegita-San]

I didn't hate it. I DID dislike the producers and thought they where big babies with how they handled criticism.

I DID hate the long breaks.

What basically changed was my opinion of the shows plotting. with the super long breaks, it felt like they didn't plan things out and forgot stuff. When you see it all at once... you see they planned things a bit better than thought previously and things where not as forgotten as they seemed.

yes, some things just vanished, like Casey's family, or April's Mother and father. but since they where not as plot important, I guess that can be forgiven.

but yeah, all in all, the series estimation did improve.

[CyberCubed]

I mean, "long breaks" is just how the network decides to air episodes, it has nothing to do with the show itself. The 4kids series had long rerun breaks too when it originally aired, even in the middle of arcs (first ep of the Battle Nexus aired around May and the last 3 parts didn't air till the Fall for example), and so forth.

Obviously once shows end and people can marathon through shows and watch many episodes close together none of that matters anymore. How shows air new eps for the first time is up to the network deciding to stretch out new episodes, it has no impact on the show itself.

[Zog The Magnificent]

How shows air new eps for the first time is up to the network deciding to stretch out new episodes, it has no impact on the show itself.

I mean, except for the pacing. The show is WAY better on DVD. The breaks killed the pacing and made certain elements feel like they dragged on way too long, which is solved by being able to watch the episodes closer together.

[CyberCubed]

Which is why how eps air on TV don't matter, it's just the original run of a show and this happens with every series.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

The Nickelodeon cartoon didn't go on extreme breaks until later seasons. Christmas breaks in December and mid year breaks in June, July and until late August are OK.

[sdp]

I gave up on the show because of breaks during the second season and didn't start watching again until the final season was being released so I could just watch it all at once and it was great. Waiting for seasons in 2021 is ridiculous, there's plenty of shows that are finished to watch and when you finish those you can finally watch the show you wanted completely.
You miss out on discussion and speculation, but over the years I've realized it's overrated and a waste of time, you can still have a good conversation as in this thread while watching later with people who watched it years ago and you get a better viewing experience.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

We also had episodes airing in South Korea first (Season 4).

[Zog The Magnificent]

We also had episodes airing in South Korea first (Season 4).

That was the worst one by far. Here I am, waiting for the season 4 finale, looking up to see if an airdate has been announced, and what's the first thing that comes up? A big ol' screen shot of Shredder Killing Splinter because they decided to air it in South Korea two months early and spoiler images popped up everywhere. I didn't even look up anything specifically that should have led to that, but it showed up anyways. Thank you Nickelodeon and your incomprehensible scheduling decisions.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

That was the worst one by far. Here I am, waiting for the season 4 finale, looking up to see if an airdate has been announced, and what's the first thing that comes up? A big ol' screen shot of Shredder Killing Splinter because they decided to air it in South Korea two months early and spoiler images popped up everywhere. I didn't even look up anything specifically that should have led to that, but it showed up anyways. Thank you Nickelodeon and your incomprehensible scheduling decisions.

Did you just Google for "TMNT Requiem" or something?

I was spoiled too, just because I happened to read some thread on this community.

[Zog The Magnificent]

Did you just Google for "TMNT Requiem" or something?

I was spoiled too, just because I happened to read some thread on this community.

I don't remember exactly what I googled. I just remember that I was looking for the air date, and I believe the first thing that came up was an article or video where the thumbnail was a big image of the moment Shredder stabs Splinter. Good times.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

I think all these breaks, becoming longer and more for each year passing, are a sign that scheudled television is on its deathbed. Breaks weren't that long 30–40 years ago.

[sdp]

I'm pretty sure "live" tv as we knew it as kids has been dead for over a decade.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

I'm pretty sure "live" tv as we knew it as kids has been dead for over a decade.

The media landscape changed a lot while the 2012 Nickelodeon TMNT cartoon aired. When it debuted in September 2012, scheudled television was still the norm. When it ended in November 2017, it wasn't anymore.

[Vegita-San]

J ust can't really bring myself to watch the last 4 episodes of the monster arc. usually I like ghost things and time travel. but something about this arc just seems redundant after the demon shredder one.

Curse of Savanti just wasn't that interesting. although I'll get to the last three eventually.

[Jephael]

J ust can't really bring myself to watch the last 4 episodes of the monster arc. usually I like ghost things and time travel. but something about this arc just seems redundant after the demon shredder one.

Curse of Savanti just wasn't that interesting. although I'll get to the last three eventually.

I totally agree. April and Renet should have both been in "Mutant Apocalypse". It would've made way more sense to have them somehow end up in that alternate future instead of introducing that meerkat girl.

[Zachatello00]

Happy mutation day!