Is the concept of Shredder himself a bad guy? Oroku Saki did nothing wrong

[CyberCubed]

Of course this changes depending on which version of TMNT you're talking about, (the original cartoon version wanted to take over the world, Ch'rell was pure evil from 2k3, etc), but speaking of Shredder in general.

He was raised in Japan to become the leader of the Foot Clan. His brother was killed by Yoshi since they had a love quarrel over Tang Shen, and then Saki killed Yoshi out of vengeance. Everything would have ended right here if the concept of mutagen did not exist, so Splinter and the Turtles would never have happened.

Yes we know the Foot Clan are assassins and have killed people, but it seemed to be a legitimate business in Japan. Is Shredder really a bad guy, from a certain point of view?

[neatoman]

He murdered two people out of revenge and is explicitly stated to be involved with several criminal activities afterwards, including drug smuggling and assassinations, within the US so it can't be argued that it is "legitimate business elsewhere". He may be more sympathetic than in most adaptations but he is certainly still a bad person.

[Coola Yagami]

I'm sure the dude that leads a criminal empire is just horribly misunderstood.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Yes we know the Foot Clan are assassins and have killed people, but it seemed to be a legitimate business in Japan. Is Shredder really a bad guy, from a certain point of view?

Killing people is not legitimate in any country on Earth.

[MementoMori]

This is the kind of question we can have for any evil character and that's why we love them: it's fascinating to see that above all of this, they are humans. And as humans, they failed. Why ? For many reasons many for no reasons.
Concerning Shredder, I will only talk about the TMNT 1987's cartoon. Well, his huge desire of power is for me a result of his habit of no limits.
For me he was raised in a context where he's been told that there's no limit in everything he can have. His mother helped him to be the criminal he is. Thinking about it, I'm wondering why his younger brother has been a good man ...
Shredder is also a victim, like so many men, of the patriarchy: boys are raised with the idea that to succeed, they have to be ambitious, aggressive, dominating.
So Shredder may be a result of all of these things...
If he's totally bad ? He doesn't sound like a psychopath at all. Ch'rell from 2003 is more psychopath. But in the 1987's cartoon, it seems he's more like a spoilt chid.
Smart, clever, no doubt on that. But spoilt.

[The Deadman]

Of course this changes depending on which version of TMNT you're talking about, (the original cartoon version wanted to take over the world, Ch'rell was pure evil from 2k3, etc), but speaking of Shredder in general.

He was raised in Japan to become the leader of the Foot Clan. His brother was killed by Yoshi since they had a love quarrel over Tang Shen, and then Saki killed Yoshi out of vengeance. Everything would have ended right here if the concept of mutagen did not exist, so Splinter and the Turtles would never have happened.

Yes we know the Foot Clan are assassins and have killed people, but it seemed to be a legitimate business in Japan. Is Shredder really a bad guy, from a certain point of view?

The Yakuza are a legit criminal organization over in Japan, kinda like the mob over in the States. Not one takes them as the good guys. Same goes for Shredder and the Foot.

[CyberCubed]

From my point of view it is the Turtles and Splinter who are evil!

[MementoMori]

From my point of view it is the Turtles and Splinter who are evil!

Not evil. But the "good" who always win.
But can you tell us more ? What does make you think they are evil ?

[dawwe]

I am pretty sure he was quoting the Star Wars prequels.

[Andrew NDB]

Saki could maybe justified in killing Yoshi... but killing Tang Shen? What did she do to anybody, except maybe not return his older brother's affections?

Though when you think about it... both the Turtles and Saki were born into ninja clans with vengeance on the brain. The Turtles, to avenge someone they never even met. Saki, his older brother who he would have known quite well.

[shredder orokusaki]

Yes iam very bad! I kill and kill and i like watching my enemies suffer! I will conquer the world and kill all the turtles!

[shredder orokusaki]

The Yakuza are a legit criminal organization over in Japan, kinda like the mob over in the States. Not one takes them as the good guys. Same goes for Shredder and the Foot.

Yakuza are my enemies and ihave fought and killed them many times. You must play the Yakuza games if you havent already.(Yakuza 0, 1,2,3,4,5,6, and like a dragon). I still have to finish yakuza 4 and after that i have to play 5 and 6. These game shows that while most yakuza are bad not all of them are bad. But yes i am VERY BAD AND EVIL!

[newfan]

If you are talking about the character overall then we all know he's not exactly a nice guy :lol: If you are talking about blame in the original feud then that is his brother, killed Shen for no good reason other than she did not want him. After that it's a chain of revenge.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

From my point of view it is the Turtles and Splinter who are evil!

The Turtles were just used by Splinter to kill Shredder.

[shredder orokusaki]

Exacttly! Most splinters(1987 2003 and 2012) trained the turtles to kill me! Splinter is as evil as me or even more evil than me!

[TigerClaw]

I love the idea of Oroku Saki being on the good side, Since he's not like the other versions out there, This comic series has been around since 2011 where characters can change direction, and undo any past misdeeds that they caused.

The fact he's going around being there guardian behind the scenes, They need someone like him around when there is trouble they can't deal with.

We had characters who started out as members of the foot clan, Then a couple of years later they switched sides, One good example is Alopex.

Old Hob is a character that that has switch sides many times.

[Andrew NDB]

"The Shredder" will definitely explore this.

[Ninja Toitles]

Shredder = Evil.
Attempted murder
Crime syndicate
Spikey Armor

Not misunderstood - but evil.

'nuff said

[frank_one]

If his brother had not been murdered, he PROBABLY would have never become an evil man. He wasn't born evil anyway, that's what Mirage vol. 1 #1 indirectly tells to us.

[Andrew NDB]

All we can gather is that he really loved his older brother. Would he still have joined the Foot and all if he hadn't been slain? Maybe, probably, but he wouldn't have had that driving principle.

[newfan]

All we can gather is that he really loved his older brother. Would he still have joined the Foot and all if he hadn't been slain? Maybe, probably, but he wouldn't have had that driving principle.

Agreed, may not have ended up 'The Shredder' (or at the rank he had) without that driving force but could still have been in the foot. Also, given what Nagi did, what kind of role model would he have been had he lived.

Certainly room to flesh out the character, interested to see what you do with him in your comic.

[CyberCubed]

It's ok to kill people as long as you have a motive. That doesn't make Shredder a bad guy, it's just that he has a vendetta.

[Xav]

To be fair we only believe Shredder to be evil based on the story told be Splinter. I would be interesting if he wasn't telling the truth.

[Andrew NDB]

Agreed, may not have ended up 'The Shredder' (or at the rank he had) without that driving force but could still have been in the foot. Also, given what Nagi did, what kind of role model would he have been had he lived.

Certainly room to flesh out the character, interested to see what you do with him in your comic.

For all we know, Nagi was a wonderful brother and a paragon of virtue... who just had 1 very bad day.

[newfan]

For all we know, Nagi was a wonderful brother and a paragon of virtue... who just had 1 very bad day.

This is true, my speculation is just going on assumptions but a story could be told that portrayed him that way.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

It's ok to kill people as long as you have a motive.

No, it isn't.

[shredder orokusaki]

The 2012 Splinter was the very bad. His father killed my family and then adopted me and raised me as their son without knowing the truth until i grew up. I had every reason to hate and kill Splinter and his family for what they did to me.

[newfan]

The 2012 Splinter was the very bad. His father killed my family and then adopted me and raised me as their son without knowing the truth until i grew up. I had every reason to hate and kill Splinter and his family for what they did to me.

Splinter/Yoshi himself was bad because his father killed Saki's parents?

[ABrown]

It's ok to kill people as long as you have a motive. That doesn't make Shredder a bad guy, it's just that he has a vendetta.

A vendetta IS a motive for murdering someone. Pretty much by definition a "murder" requires motive. Otherwise, what did the person do? Kill them by accident?

[TylerD]

He murdered two people out of revenge and is explicitly stated to be involved with several criminal activities afterwards, including drug smuggling and assassinations, within the US so it can't be argued that it is "legitimate business elsewhere". He may be more sympathetic than in most adaptations but he is certainly still a bad person.

Lol, well said.

[IMJ]

It's ok to kill people as long as you have a motive.

Uhhhhhh.....
-snicker-

Cubed..... uhhh... can you do me a solid and confess just this once whether or not this was a troll-style-comment or your honest head math? Cuz I can't tell.

[Anarchistguy]

It's ok to kill people as long as you have a motive. That doesn't make Shredder a bad guy, it's just that he has a vendetta.

"It's ok to kill people"

This person just said that it's ok to kill people...

Kind sir, you need to go buy some crazy glue because you are CRACKED!!!

And yes....I'm aware of the irony of my signature

[Wartortle]

You people are messed up. Murder is not justified because of a grudge. If someone murders your brother that person is evil. If you murder them you are also evil. If that person has family or anyone who cares about them then you just created a grudge for them against you. By your logic they'd be perfectly within their rights to murder you. This cycle continues forever if this is considered justified.

An eye for an eye and the world goes blind.

"It's ok to kill people as long as you have a motive."

Probably the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Also, does this mean it is only not okay to kill people if there is no motive? Why bother killing someone if there is no motive?

[frank_one]

Well, in real life a lot of murders happen without an actual motive, out of boredom AND mental illness.
"It's ok to kill people". Yes, in comics and movies this is often accepted.