Shredder's inability to find the Turtles Lair

[Prowler]

In the FW series, Shredder really wanted to find out the Turtles Lair and tried to do so several times but to no avail.

However, some other characters have managed to find it. Lotus Blossom, Zach, Chronos and The Rat King alone have done it. So how come Shredder and Krang couldn't with the technology they had? I mean, ZACH of all people, managed to find it.

The Rat King knowing of it in the Red Sky seasons and not telling Shredder about it is just strange. You'd think Shredder would have pressed him to tell the location.

Thoughts?

[CyberCubed]

Realistically New York's sewers are huge and the Turtles only live in one particular storm drain. It would make sense they're difficult to locate.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

He is there in The Old Switcheroo.

[IMJ]

By that analysis though, it would also make sense that Shredder could systematically find them....

I mean... he does have a foot army to comb the sewers and a living brain with super tech to create a search plan.

[Prowler]

He is there in The Old Switcheroo.

In Splinter's body. He had something covering his eyes the whole way to there. Meaning he didn't find it nor did he get to know how to get there.

He's also there in Cowabunga's Shredhead, but that's when his brain gets turned into Michelangelo's.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

In Splinter's body. He had something covering his eyes the whole way to there.

But not on his way back to the laboratory.

[Icebot]

But not on his way back to the laboratory.

I think he left in a hurry and didn’t remember where the lair was later. After all, it was shown he still didn’t know where it was in later episodes:

Pizza By The Shred: he needed an anchovy homing device to find it and ended up in the Rat King’s domain.

The Missing Map: he needed the map to find the lair, ended up on a wild goose chase.

Also Baxter Stockman found the lair in Return of the Fly.

[Prowler]

I think he left in a hurry and didn’t remember where the lair was later. After all, it was shown he still didn’t know where it was in later episodes:

Pizza By The Shred: he needed an anchovy homing device to find it and ended up in the Rat King’s domain.

The Missing Map: he needed the map to find the lair, ended up on a wild goose chase.

Also Baxter Stockman found the lair in Return of the Fly.

Oh I don't remember Baxter finding it.

Interesting how characters with much less technological means at their disposal were able to find the Turtles Lair while Shredder and Krang never managed to.

It's also surprising how April always seems to remember the way and never get lost.

[Coola Yagami]

That's another thing. They always captured April to lure the Turtles into a trap, but never to try to get the info out of her of where the Turtles Lair was.

They even had April go after the Turtles while she was a mutant cat.... and never sent some Foot Soldiers or whatever to follow her.

[Prowler]

I guess if they let Shredder find the Lair they'd have to make the Turtles move to a different one and come up with a new design, and they didn't want to do that.

[Leo656]

Yeah, I try not to gripe about it too much but this is definitely one of those "The show was just pretty lazily-written" kinda things. In-story there's just no good explanation.

[the_minimizer]

In "Name That Toon" Shredder and Krang saw the turtles' lair from the view screen.

[cammy85]

Baxter only found it because he was between dimensions and it took months of searching. Probably why he wasn't at all concerned that the Technodrome was back on Earth again,

Another instance is The Making Of Metalhead. After Metalhead was defeated after acquiring the Turtles' ninja skills, there was an oil slick the villains used to track the Turtles and the new Metalhead alerted them, leading to a chase scene.

[oldmanwinters]

You'd think with all the random cameras Shredder had monitoring the streets and the sewers of the city, that he'd have been able to triangulate the most likely locations!

[Leo656]

You'd think with all the random cameras Shredder had monitoring the streets and the sewers of the city, that he'd have been able to triangulate the most likely locations!

This is the sh*t, man. It's like how in some of the old He-Man cartoons, the bad guys have their magic portal thing that lets them just spy on whatever the heroes are doing... and conveniently, they never catch Adam changing into He-Man at any of those moments. Just for example.

Thundercats did that sh*t too. Lots of shows. The bad guys need to be omniscient so they can "make up" a brilliant plan on the spot by watching what the good guys are up to, but are also conveniently ignorant, blind, or stupid whenever the plot demands it.

Part of it is kinda forgivable, in that "Hey man, it's for little kids and they're not gonna think about that." On the other hand, watching some of this stuff as an adult can be tooth-grinding.

[Coola Yagami]

I like how Rita's plans would vary between taking over Angel Grove, to wiping out the Power Rangers to 'awww Kimberly is working on a parade float, let's smash it and ruin her day!'

Rita Repulsa was literally the 'that's a real nice thing you got there, be a real shame if someone were to **** it up' meme before the meme existed.

[Galactus]

Shredder often did know were the lair was or had the means to locate it.

In the first season he knew were Yoshi was living in the sewers so he could plant the mutagen meant to...come to think of it what did he think was going to happen to Yoshi?

The Mousers easily located the lair. Either because Shredder had programmed them were to look or they could home in on a mutant rat.

He broadcast his ultimatum over the turtles TV so presumably was able to simply broadcast the signal straight to the lair.

I know the general fanon is that the turtles moved lairs to explain their differing designs in the first three seasons. Even if that's accurate in the second season opener Baxter kidnapped Splinter straight from the lair. Again he either knew were it was or was able home in on a mutant rat. The latter seems plausible considering the next episode he was able to build a device to locate the turtles themselves.

In the third season The Making of Metalhead, Metalhead was able to locate the lair. I guess Krang and Shredder were extremely shortsigted by not using the device or program that allowed the robot they themselves built to that themselves.

[IMJ]

Part of it is kinda forgivable, in that "Hey man, it's for little kids and they're not gonna think about that." On the other hand, watching some of this stuff as an adult can be tooth-grinding.

:teek:

ahem

:lol:

[The Deadman]

If Shredder attacked the lair right away, there'd be no reason to have multiple seasons.

[sdp]

I like how Rita's plans would vary between taking over Angel Grove, to wiping out the Power Rangers to 'awww Kimberly is working on a parade float, let's smash it and ruin her day!'

"What a wench"

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-h4A074vrR18/VA57u5gRkYI/AAAAAAAAAzo/SS-WB5_QZOM/s1600/More%2BPhenomanal.gif

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSGHsxJFYkggOC6ghEjBluLXUp6ro62q clhT7Fpey6Udmnlo9O4WSKWry3ijPtHIfV485s&usqp=CAU
https://i.gifer.com/Hgr2.gif

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

If Shredder attacked the lair right away, there'd be no reason to have multiple seasons.

If Shredder found and attacked the Turtle Lair, the Turtles would just have to relocate.

[cammy85]

Metalhead, Monroe Q Flemm, Lexx, Lotus Blossom, and Chronos found them without any real problem. Zack doesn't count... or does he????

[Zachatello00]

I like how Rita's plans would vary between taking over Angel Grove, to wiping out the Power Rangers to 'awww Kimberly is working on a parade float, let's smash it and ruin her day!'

Rita Repulsa was literally the 'that's a real nice thing you got there, be a real shame if someone were to **** it up' meme before the meme existed.

I also always wondered why Rita never just announced to the world who the Rangers were. Thought would have been problematic for them at best.

[Coola Yagami]

I also always wondered why Rita never just announced to the world who the Rangers were. Thought would have been problematic for them at best.

Never thought of it like that but you're right. I never got just how Rita found out who they were to begin with.

[neatoman]

I can't believe I haven't posted this here before but... Ahem...

...

Shredder is the guy responsible for mutating the turtles, he knew exactly where Hamato Yoshi was hiding. It was never implied he moved after mutating and the setting of the mutation looks just like the lair. For all intents and purposes, Shredder should know damn well where they are, he just forgot out of convenience.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Shredder is the guy responsible for mutating the turtles, he knew exactly where Hamato Yoshi was hiding. It was never implied he moved after mutating and the setting of the mutation looks just like the lair. For all intents and purposes, Shredder should know damn well where they are, he just forgot out of convenience.

To be fair, the lair doesn't get its established and specific look until the start of season 3, so it's not out of possibility that they moved multiple times before then off-screen. Even between seasons 1 and 2, the lair looks wildly inconsistent so from a story perspective, constantly moving around to avoid the villains is probable.

[Leo656]

I can't believe I haven't posted this here before but... Ahem...

...

Shredder is the guy responsible for mutating the turtles, he knew exactly where Hamato Yoshi was hiding. It was never implied he moved after mutating and the setting of the mutation looks just like the lair. For all intents and purposes, Shredder should know damn well where they are, he just forgot out of convenience.


Yeah, that's always been a huge sticking point for me, too. A big reason why I can't stand the whole "Shredder kind of accidentally on purpose caused Splinter and the Turtles to mutate". Then why is it so hard for him to just go back to that Exact Same Spot whenever he looks for them? Because there's good odds that you take 40 paces in any direction from that spot, you'd find their lair.

Like people talk a lot of sh*t about "Superman Returns". But given that it's a kinda/sorta sequel to Superman II, the fact that one of the very first things Lex does after he gets out of prison is go to the North Pole and break into Superman's house again, with the intent to do a better job this time, was fantastic. Okay, some people said it was "lazy" and "a rehash", but think about it, why WOULDN'T he do Exactly That? He knows where Superman's house is! To NOT go back there and try and screw around more is what would be dumb; what he did was a rare case of a movie villain doing what logic and common sense would dictate, rather than "Well, we did that in another movie so we can't do it again." Nonsense.

Also, you hate that cartoon more than I hate Obama and for whatever reason it always makes me smile. :lol:

To be fair, the lair doesn't get its established and specific look until the start of season 3, so it's not out of possibility that they moved multiple times before then off-screen. Even between seasons 1 and 2, the lair looks wildly inconsistent so from a story perspective, constantly moving around to avoid the villains is probable.

In theory. In practice, we've seen exactly how lazy these jokers are, which is Very. Hopping around setting up shop in a new place every few weeks sounds good on paper but I can't see the Turtles - or at least THESE specific Ninja Turtles - doing it, on account of it would just be too much hassle, maaaaaaaan.

Although on-paper it does sound like a better excuse for the lair's inconsistent look early on, rather than "They just couldn't be bothered sticking to model sheets (or even having model sheets for the lair)," which we all know was the real reason. :)

[FredWolfLeonardo]

In theory. In practice, we've seen exactly how lazy these jokers are, which is Very. Hopping around setting up shop in a new place every few weeks sounds good on paper but I can't see the Turtles - or at least THESE specific Ninja Turtles - doing it, on account of it would just be too much hassle, maaaaaaaan.

I could imagine 80s Mike and especially Raph being extremely lazy about it, but Splinter would've given them a good beating, and they would've eventually helped move house.

[Leo656]

No, no, it was the BayTurtles Splinter who was a child-abusing monster. You're getting your Splinters confused.

BayTurtles Splinter was the physically abusive one, "Rise" Splinter was the emotionally-abusive one who couldn't even be assed to remember their names, and Mirage Splinter was the sociopath who drafted his "sons" from their "birth" into a war they had nothing to do with and twisted them until their lives had no meaning without revenge and bloodshed.

FW Splinter, on the other hand, was generally mellow and laid-back. Worst case, he and Leo would move all the stuff themselves and not tell the other guys where they'd moved to, leaving them to figure it out for themselves. That, I could very much see happening.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

I dunno man, he seems pretty strict throughout the show. Definetly willing to get physical if orders are not followed.

A-KpRWgTzQ8

[Leo656]

I guess it's settled, then. Every Splinter except 1990 Movie Splinter is a goddamn dick.

[ABrown]

I dunno man, he seems pretty strict throughout the show. Definetly willing to get physical if orders are not followed.

A-KpRWgTzQ8

Ah yes, the famous "Sacagawea" battle cry.

[Coola Yagami]

Wtf. Since when were they crime fighters???

[DarkFell]

Because someone that really wants to do a thing (say, as in Shredder searching for the Turtles' Lair), doesn't achieve it and the OT fans cheer on. But, if a random individual (or even The Rat-King) can find the lair by dumb coincidence, then it's a different situation and we have an episode!

It's an odd storyline formula and I'm halfway certain that the OT wasn't the only show that consistently exploited it.

[mikey22]

I love how he just walked in there in cowabunga shredhead w/ mikeys memory apparently?? lol

[Prowler]

And how come he never followed April around to find the Lair? He did try to follow the Turtles a fee times before but they quickly realised they were being followed. As expected from good ninjas. But April? She's no ninja. And EVERYONE in New York knows she's the face of Channel 6. So it would seem logical to me to follow her around whenever she went off the station building.

As for the mutagen and Splinter thing, well they couldn't flat out say Shredder wanted Yoshi dead. Or show him trying to kill him. So they had to work around that... but did it poorly. Maybe Shredder thought Yoshi becoming a grotesque human sized rat would make him never rkeavr the sewers again or eventually be captured and killed by the government or something. But the irony is, Yoshi had no idea Shredder was also in USA. And even if he knew, he was now a homeless man living in the sewers. So what threat did he pose to Shredder exactly?

[Leo656]

Yeah, Shredder's whole "plan" to "eliminate" Hamato Yoshi by dumping mutagen down the sewer never made any damn sense and it always bugged me. Even Krang was like, "That was stupid, you stupid idiot".

And yes, since he knew April was thick as thieves with the Turtles, one would think all he'd have to do is follow her around for a while, or pay someone to do the same, and he'd either find the Turtles' lair or catch them otherwise unawares eventually.

Even the good 80s cartoons had a ton of sh*t writing, objectively. I think "The Real Ghostbusters" was probably the best-written show of its era; there really wasn't anything in the original few seasons that was completely ridiculous, full of plot holes, or otherwise made you sigh and just agree to not notice so it wouldn't ruin the show for you. Everything else was pretty shoddy.

For example, like in the He-Man cartoon - which I still love - there was this constant inconsistency where sometimes Skeletor could just tune in and see what all the good guys were up to from his evil lair, and sometimes he couldn't; but even when he could, he somehow NEVER happened to tune in at a moment where Adam turned into He-Man, or talked about being He-Man, or any of that stuff. The bad guys knew where the good guys lived - because most of them lived in a gigantic palace - but the villains almost never tried to just storm the castle or anything, despite having just as much tech and weapons as the good guys. Instead they'd always just come up with some plan to trick Teela into going into the woods by herself so someone could jump her, or something.

Looking for logic in any 1980s cartoon - even the good ones, which I would count MOTU and TMNT among - just makes your head hurt. At the end of the day, even if they'll deny it, "Kids are stupid, they won't care" was the general rule of thumb for writing scripts back then. They DO deny it to this day, when asked, but... if you actually WATCH the shows, you can tell, for a fact, that the "Kids Are Stupid" rule was in full effect, because otherwise there's just NO way so many gaps of logic or other inconsistencies ever could have happened.

[Prowler]

Funny thing is, there is an episode or two, at least, where Shredder and Krang can see on the Techbodrome big screen what the Turtles are doing. How, though? Did they have cameras all over New York? And if that's the case... why not put some in the sewer tunnels in order to try locating the lair?

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Funny thing is, there is an episode or two, at least, where Shredder and Krang can see on the Techbodrome big screen what the Turtles are doing. How, though? Did they have cameras all over New York? And if that's the case... why not put some in the sewer tunnels in order to try locating the lair?

In episode 3, "A thing about rats", we see Shredder release tiny flying helicopters with cameras into the city, and he also probably used them when he was spying on Yoshi prior to mutation.

[neatoman]

In episode 3, "A thing about rats", we see Shredder release tiny flying helicopters with cameras into the city, and he also probably used them when he was spying on Yoshi prior to mutation.

That idea is hilarious to me.

"Ah yes! I sit here with my army of robots, giant death machine, portal to other dimensions, mutagenic substances and various other things that will help me conquer this planet! Now I will use my vast resources to... SPY ON A SEWER HOBO TO MAKE SURE HE ISN'T A THREAT!!!"

[Leo656]

That idea is hilarious to me.

"Ah yes! I sit here with my army of robots, giant death machine, portal to other dimensions, mutagenic substances and various other things that will help me conquer this planet! Now I will use my vast resources to... SPY ON A SEWER HOBO TO MAKE SURE HE ISN'T A THREAT!!!"

80s cartoon villains sure had a lousy record when it came to priorities and planning.

Like, the time that Jake "The Snake" Roberts gave Miss Elizabeth a box full of live cobras as a wedding gift was a lot more creative and forward-thinking than 99% of things Shredder or Mumm-Ra or Skeletor ever came up with. If they had that kind of "evil" streak they might've actually gotten sh*t done.

Alas, most of 'em were just dicking around.

[Coola Yagami]

I guess Shredder ****ed around but never found out.

[shredder orokusaki]

I found it some times and i destroyed it.

[MattOnWheels]

Wtf. Since when were they crime fighters???Well, he meant in the sense that when they have to, they need to fight it.