Future of the Turtles

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Since the Nickelodeon purchase of the TMNT in October 2009, we've seen the Turtles returning in various forms. But are new comics, cartoons and movies almost all the time a good thing? What do you think should happen to the franchise?

Between June 1969 and September 1987, Star Trek had just one, short-lasting, cartoon and a few movies on screen.

Star Wars mostly slept for about five years, from 1986 until 1991. Then, it slowly began to return with books, comics and video games until the full-scale cinema comeback in May 1999.

Masters of the Universe slept in hibernation for about 12 years, from about December 1990 until August 2002. Maybe too long?

The Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles were declining during the late 1990's and early 2000's.

[Andrew NDB]

My choice (not listed) would be: "Bury the Turtles, and let them rest in peace... until such a time as when/if Viacom/Nickelodeon get serious about them not exclusively as a children's or camp property/Fred Wolf regurgitation of a regurgitation."

Or just "Sell TMNT to someone else." I really almost don't care to whom. After 10 years we have a pretty good idea of Viacom/Nick's "plan" for TMNT and it's not a really good one. Let's try somebody else's.

[AquaParade]

I've always been the type of audience member that is fine with the license holder throwing a ton of stuff at the wall and seeing what sticks. Most of it won't be for me, but some of it will.

So I hope the franchise keeps chugging along, and just maybe, someday, there will be something I enjoy as much as the Mirage books or the first movie. Otherwise, it's just fun to occasionally check out for curiosity's sake.

Viacom hasn't done a whole lot with the franchise that appeals to me, but then again, if TMNT were buried a decade ago, we wouldn't have The Last Ronin, which is a great book and an exciting product to come out of TMNT in this day and age. At the least, it's something from the franchise that appeals to me.

I don't feel like the franchise could be desecrated anymore than it already has. It's not like we're stepping on sacred ground here. Keep trying. Let's see what happens.

[Jephael]

I feel they would do well with Warner Bros and DC Comics. Heck they've already teamed up with Batman, I'd love to see them cross paths with the likes of Superman, Wonder Woman and others down the road.

[Leo656]

The magic's gone. Throwing a billion disparate takes at the wall to see if anything sticks does little except damage what's become an already-tainted brand. There was a time when there wasn't much TMNT product in existence, and most of it was good. Now if you take in the collective amount of Everything TMNT, MOST of it isn't just "bad", but trash. The longer it goes on, the more things tip the wrong way. Saying "Well, it's already damaged goods so whatever, just pile more sh*t on top" doesn't help anything. "Oh, boy, perhaps ONE of these hundred new iterations WON'T be terrible!" Who cares?! One Good Thing with a TMNT sticker on it doesn't counteract the hundred Bad Things, and those Bad Things do more harm to the brand than any good that those Good Things could ever do.

It's officially become Stupid Sh*t For Dummies. It shouldn't be, should never have been, but there's no going back, now. It's gone way too far off the rails and the Bad far outweighs the Good. You officially can't proclaim yourself a TMNT Fan without immediately branding yourself as someone who likes Dumb Sh*t, and the onus is now on you to explain to anyone judging you, "No, I mean I like the GOOD TMNT stuff from like a hundred years ago, before it all got stupid." But before you get to say that, the immediate judgment of the other person is, "Oh, they like TMNT. This person is either an idiot or a manchild."

TMNT, once upon a time, was "cool". It's not "cool", now, and probably never will be again.

The most respectful thing to do, would be to let it rest. Keep making those overpriced "collector's" action figures, maybe try a new video game once every ten years or so. There's just nothing good that can come from endless reboots, at this point. They fixed it until it was broken and now it's not salvagable.

It's like how once upon a time the Toy Story franchise was "pure"; it was just three movies (and a couple TV spin-offs nobody watched), and everyone liked those movies. It was about as "perfect" and "pristine" as a franchise could ever be. But they just HAD to chase one last dollar, they made that lousy fourth movie, and now that franchise is "broken", too.

"Sometimes, dead is bettah."

[mrmaczaps]

Too much low brow dumbest versions is bad for long term. Best idea is to stop for a bit, see what worked from Mirage & the 1990 movie & move forward from that point. The bro's are same species, all male, red bandana wearing, color coded wraps on weapons they're using & telling Turtle centered stories that kick ass. Want to tell the tails/tales of side characters, use a mini series. Next.

[IndigoErth]

I favor short breaks and more thought given to what they intend on doing with them.

I feel that throwing anything and everything at the wall and then ending up with 85% crud is just going to result in people thinking the property no longer has any value when that would be purely the fault of the people who failed it.

If we were a lot younger still a long hibernation might seem less of an issue, but I don't really want to have to wait until many of us are all nearing retirement age for anything good to actually happen, nor do I want them to stop existing completely.

[Leo656]

So here's a hypothetical.

Pretend a version of You from the future came back in time to Right Now and said, "Yeah, there's gonna be another hundred versions of TMNT between Now and Then, and they keep getting dumber. In the future, the TMNT franchise is looked at with naught but mockery and disdain; any claims that it was once one of the most popular things around are met with snickers of disbelief. It's 100% just disposable entertainment for dipsh*ts, like those Transformers movies. Not only will there never be a version that you like, ever again, but the entire franchise is beyond a bad joke in the eyes of pretty much everyone."

BUT, here's the kicker: Future You has come back in time to let you know that YOU have the power to prevent that... but the flipside being, there will never be another version of TMNT ever again. Only nostalgia-based stuff like toys and video games, which never go away for any property; but no more cartoons, movies, comics, no more "new versions".

So... would you do it? Cancel the entire future of the property, with the caveat that at least things won't get any worse than they are Right Now? Especially armed with the knowledge from Future You that literally nothing they ever do with the brand will ever again be to your liking? Let's assume for the sake of argument this isn't some alternate-timeline Future You, but literally You In 40 Years. And you have 100% of the power to prevent this Dark Future, where most TMNT material that ever existed is trash and everyone thinks the brand is and always was stupid.

I would. I'd cancel that sh*t so hard. Right now, things are bad but it's still possible to see through some of the crap on the windshield to see the Good that once existed in this franchise. If things continue their current course, though, there won't even be any "windshield", just a three-inch thick layer of sh*t that nobody in their right mind would even attempt to scratch the surface of.

[mrmaczaps]

So here's a hypothetical.

Pretend a version of You from the future came back in time to Right Now and said, "Yeah, there's gonna be another hundred versions of TMNT between Now and Then, and they keep getting dumber. In the future, the TMNT franchise is looked at with naught but mockery and disdain; any claims that it was once one of the most popular things around are met with snickers of disbelief. It's 100% just disposable entertainment for dipsh*ts, like those Transformers movies. Not only will there never be a version that you like, ever again, but the entire franchise is beyond a bad joke in the eyes of pretty much everyone."

BUT, here's the kicker: Future You has come back in time to let you know that YOU have the power to prevent that... but the flipside being, there will never be another version of TMNT ever again. Only nostalgia-based stuff like toys and video games, which never go away for any property; but no more cartoons, movies, comics, no more "new versions".

So... would you do it? Cancel the entire future of the property, with the caveat that at least things won't get any worse than they are Right Now? Especially armed with the knowledge from Future You that literally nothing they ever do with the brand will ever again be to your liking? Let's assume for the sake of argument this isn't some alternate-timeline Future You, but literally You In 40 Years. And you have 100% of the power to prevent this Dark Future, where most TMNT material that ever existed is trash and everyone thinks the brand is and always was stupid.

I would. I'd cancel that sh*t so hard. Right now, things are bad but it's still possible to see through some of the crap on the windshield to see the Good that once existed in this franchise. If things continue their current course, though, there won't even be any "windshield", just a three-inch thick layer of sh*t that nobody in their right mind would even attempt to scratch the surface of.

Bury it like Hillary's involvement in the deaths of soooo many people. :tlol:

[Leo656]

Bury it like Hillary's involvement in the deaths of soooo many people. :tlol:

:lol: Bit of an odd tangent, but I'll allow it.

I'll even go one better! :tgrin:
SOsfrppKd1k

"The First Lady claimed that she won the Women's 100-Meter Dash at the 1956 Olympics, and that she had an I.Q. of, quote, 'Over 700'. When it was pointed out to her that these were not especially good lies, Mrs. Clinton responded, 'I know, I have a problem,' and then added, 'I invented the formula for 7-Up'."
:tgrin::tgrin::tgrin::tgrin::tgrin:

[Allio]

Clearly there is an argument to both sides. A franchise like Pokémon gets lots and content, and honestly it’s pretty much all the main line stuff that is bad and the side content is really the only worth things (stuff like Pokken and the different types of manga) but because of the mainline it feels like everything is over bloated. Then again on the opposite spectrum we are still waiting on a new F-zero game.

Then waiting on 4-5 years doesn’t always work as when something comes out and it’s bad, it hurts worse. The era of Metroid federation force/Other M proves this.

Obviously it all depends on one’s own taste. There is both positive and negatives on both.

And don’t get me started on Silent Hill.

[MrPliggins]

So here's a hypothetical.

Pretend a version of You from the future came back in time to Right Now and said, "Yeah, there's gonna be another hundred versions of TMNT between Now and Then, and they keep getting dumber. In the future, the TMNT franchise is looked at with naught but mockery and disdain; any claims that it was once one of the most popular things around are met with snickers of disbelief. It's 100% just disposable entertainment for dipsh*ts, like those Transformers movies. Not only will there never be a version that you like, ever again, but the entire franchise is beyond a bad joke in the eyes of pretty much everyone."

BUT, here's the kicker: Future You has come back in time to let you know that YOU have the power to prevent that... but the flipside being, there will never be another version of TMNT ever again. Only nostalgia-based stuff like toys and video games, which never go away for any property; but no more cartoons, movies, comics, no more "new versions".

So... would you do it? Cancel the entire future of the property, with the caveat that at least things won't get any worse than they are Right Now? Especially armed with the knowledge from Future You that literally nothing they ever do with the brand will ever again be to your liking? Let's assume for the sake of argument this isn't some alternate-timeline Future You, but literally You In 40 Years. And you have 100% of the power to prevent this Dark Future, where most TMNT material that ever existed is trash and everyone thinks the brand is and always was stupid.

I would. I'd cancel that sh*t so hard. Right now, things are bad but it's still possible to see through some of the crap on the windshield to see the Good that once existed in this franchise. If things continue their current course, though, there won't even be any "windshield", just a three-inch thick layer of sh*t that nobody in their right mind would even attempt to scratch the surface of.

This is an interesting hypothetical. I'd let the franchise keep going. I can just ignore the stuff I don't like, like I've done for the past 10 years. Let the people who like it, like it. If it keeps the property relevant long enough for my #1, 1st printing, to be worth a million dollars like Action Comics #1, I'm all for it. :lol:

[oldmanwinters]

My choice (not listed) would be: "Bury the Turtles, and let them rest in peace... until such a time as when/if Viacom/Nickelodeon get serious about them not exclusively as a children's or camp property/Fred Wolf regurgitation of a regurgitation."

Meh, when that happens, you usually end up with something like the Kevin Smith Masters of the Universe reboot. And the inevitable fan backlash followed by the corporate shamming of the "not true fans."

[Leo656]

Meh, when that happens, you usually end up with something like the Kevin Smith Masters of the Universe reboot.

It was fine.

[AquaParade]

Saying "Well, it's already damaged goods so whatever, just pile more sh*t on top" doesn't help anything. "Oh, boy, perhaps ONE of these hundred new iterations WON'T be terrible!" Who cares?! One Good Thing with a TMNT sticker on it doesn't counteract the hundred Bad Things, and those Bad Things do more harm to the brand than any good that those Good Things could ever do.


This is where I disagree. I really dig The Last Ronin and a lot of the figures Neca are putting out. The new game looks fun too. Oh, and the Injustice DLC was dope. Why do I care if there are five lame cartoons and a movie in the meantime?

Really...why do I care? We are past the point of desecration.
If Nickelodeon wants to make a ton of money, indoctrinate the kiddo's with TMNT, and occasionally throw me something cool, why would I be against that?

I don't see how it'd be better for the TMNT franchise to be dead, with no chance of the occasional cool product, just so we could look at it every once in a while and say "well, that was cool. I'm glad the franchise is bringing nobody joy anymore. I got mine. Respect!"

The easiest thing in the world is to just ignore the offerings that aren't aimed at you. In the meantime, they are bringing others joy and occasionally aiming at a different demographic.
So here's a hypothetical.

Pretend a version of You from the future came back in time to Right Now and said, "Yeah, there's gonna be another hundred versions of TMNT between Now and Then, and they keep getting dumber. In the future, the TMNT franchise is looked at with naught but mockery and disdain; any claims that it was once one of the most popular things around are met with snickers of disbelief. It's 100% just disposable entertainment for dipsh*ts, like those Transformers movies. Not only will there never be a version that you like, ever again, but the entire franchise is beyond a bad joke in the eyes of pretty much everyone."


Oh, well...that's just different. I don't assume that literally every single TMNT offering is going to be bad. I mean, if we knew they were all going to be bad and none would appeal to us for the next 100 years, of course we'd all be willing to shut it down. Anyone except the occasional addicts, which do exist. But if they told me "90% of what comes out for the rest of your life, in regards to TMNT, won't appeal to you, but 10% will", then yeah, I'd definitely keep it alive.

TMNT isn't my legacy, I don't give a crap if the brand is tarnished anymore, if that's even possible. I'll skip the crappy buffet and wander straight over to the ice cream when it's ready.

[Andrew NDB]

The easiest thing in the world is to just ignore the offerings that aren't aimed at you. In the meantime, they are bringing others joy and occasionally aiming at a different demographic.

Which is fine, but the question is "what do YOU think SHOULD happen" with the TMNT. He's answering the question. It's not "What do you think is an equitable for all move with TMNT?" I'm guessing Leo656 doesn't give a crap about the latest crop of 5 year old potential fans -- or the furries, or general weirdos or whoever we may happen to be talking about -- and neither do I.

[AquaParade]

Which is fine, but the question is "what do YOU think SHOULD happen" with the TMNT. He's answering the question. It's not "What do you think is an equitable for all move with TMNT?" I'm guessing Leo656 doesn't give a crap about the latest crop of 5 year old potential fans -- or the furries, or general weirdos or whoever we may happen to be talking about -- and neither do I.

I think you're missing my point. It's not so much "think of the kids" as it is "let the kids have their thing, and as long as I get mine too on occasion, I'd like the train to keep rolling."

If none of our opinions are up for discussion, then I don't know why we are here. Leo asked a hypothetical and I also responded to that.

I mean, let alone that his post was in large part, in response to what I voted for - whether intentional or not - and that's totally fine with me. Felt like it was open for discussion.

It's officially become Stupid Sh*t For Dummies. It shouldn't be, should never have been, but there's no going back, now. It's gone way too far off the rails and the Bad far outweighs the Good. You officially can't proclaim yourself a TMNT Fan without immediately branding yourself as someone who likes Dumb Sh*t, and the onus is now on you to explain to anyone judging you, "No, I mean I like the GOOD TMNT stuff from like a hundred years ago, before it all got stupid." But before you get to say that, the immediate judgment of the other person is, "Oh, they like TMNT. This person is either an idiot or a manchild."

Btw, Leo, I think this is actually right where we part ways, in a sense. Because I can agree with some of this and my stance is just "well, if it's too late, why stop now? Occasionally some gold gets shat out, so who cares?". But I don't think you're wrong, it's just difference of opinion.

[oldmanwinters]

Speaking of the Franchise's future, this might be nothing of consequence, but the official TMNT Instagram posted this picture today which has people talking and speculating if it might be a tease of a new show/project. If it's just fan art, it appears to have been posted without credit:
http://i.imgur.com/mut3L4Mm.jpg (https://imgur.com/mut3L4M)
https://www.instagram.com/p/CUupSvnsc2Y/

The art style reminds me quite a bit of Brian Thomas' under-rated work on the occasional Archie TMNT Adventures issue.

EDIT: For whatever it's worth, the same account shared Thomas' cover for issue 72 back in August (https://www.instagram.com/p/CSuh2iDtRJW/).

EDIT x2: TMNT Official Facebook account also posted the image around 3pm:
https://www.facebook.com/teenagemutantninjaturtles/posts/4465638843475012:0

[AquaParade]

Speaking of the Franchise's future, this might be nothing of consequence, but the official TMNT Instagram posted this picture today which has people talking and speculating if it might be a tease of a new show/project. If it's just fan art, it appears to have been posted without credit:
http://i.imgur.com/nkVth45m.jpg (https://imgur.com/nkVth45)
https://www.instagram.com/p/CUupSvnsc2Y/

The art style reminds me quite a bit of Brian Thomas' under-rated work on the occasional Archie TMNT Adventures issue.

Interesting. Looks to me like they post a lot of fan art, but I could be wrong.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Speaking of the Franchise's future, this might be nothing of consequence, but the official TMNT Instagram posted this picture today which has people talking and speculating if it might be a tease of a new show/project. If it's just fan art, it appears to have been posted without credit:
http://i.imgur.com/nkVth45m.jpg (https://imgur.com/nkVth45)
https://www.instagram.com/p/CUupSvnsc2Y/

The art style reminds me quite a bit of Brian Thomas' under-rated work on the occasional Archie TMNT Adventures issue.

Except for the bandanas, it reminds me of the TMNT Adventures Turtle Tots.

[Allio]

Reminds me of the manga versions of the anime turtles.

[CyberCubed]

Definitely looks like a cross between the original cartoon and Archie series in terms of art. I don't know if it means anything though.

[IndigoErth]

More than one official account posting it... hmmm. That image may be nothing, but it's strange that it's uncredited, giving it a teaser vibe.

May be nothing and I may be far off, but it sparked a memory of seeing this tweet (https://twitter.com/AshPaulsen/status/1372012876727160834?s=20) pointed out elsewhere online just recently.

Ash Paulsen Rainbow flag @AshPaulsen · Mar 16
I just got to stand in as Leo for a TMNT script read with @LeftFieldBarry, Townsend Coleman, and my dad @yakkopinky and they said I did well and OH MY GOD Loudly crying faceExploding headSmiling face with open mouth and smiling eyes

(Can't say what it's for yet but don't worry, you'll of course hear the amazing @CamClarkeVoices in the real thing!)

10:32 PM · Mar 16, 2021·Twitter Web App


From back in March, but it was something and still unknown? In comments he says it's not for Shredder's Revenge, and don't need a paid subscription, so anything Netflix is out.

What I'd seen had people speculating about a possible tv special. edit: Would be funny if that's what the re-release of the toys is about.

[Leo656]

I don't feel like doing clips of multiple quotes so I'll just say upfront that some of this is in reply to Aqua and some of it is just general statements.

As far as stuff like the NECA figures and the Injustice DLC, I agree those things are good, which is why I made it a point to mention that I not only think stuff like that will always happen, but should, and that that's probably where the brand should stay. It's like Dick Tracy or Popeye or Flash Gordon - super-popular once upon a time, but now only exists in the rear-view mirror with the occasional "Remember This?" bone thrown to the people who still care about it.

Nobody is even bothering trying to make NEW things with those properties, like movies or shows or whatever, nor should they. They'd be terrible when run through a modern lens, anyway. The people who control those properties understand that there's no point trying to create new content for a new audience that's way too young or out of the loop to appreciate those things properly. So instead, it's all "throwback" stuff. An action figure here, a Collected Edition of old strips there, and honestly, that's plenty. And that's where things like TMNT arguably belong now. The abundance of New Stuff is lousy, and I'm somewhat clairvoyant so I can't ever see another good movie or TV show coming out. Not in my lifetime, and probably not after that either.

So I definitely don't think they should NOT do stuff like the NECA toys or the Injustice DLC, or that little DLC game that's coming out. But I do think that's as ambitious as they should get with this brand. They probably won't ever even attempt a "real" TMNT game again, and since Mutants in Manhattan under-performed despite being perfectly fine, that's probably for the best, too. It's not like a "real" developer even wants the brand, anyway; they don't see any money in it.

And that's really the crux of it. The brand is owned by people with no love for the property past how much they can make off of it, and quality is of no concern. And I'd rather just see them stop trying to mess with it instead of seeing a never-ending series of diminishing returns. A movie in the vein of the 1990 movie is an impossibility, for example; we'll never see anything like that again, ever, and I don't want to see another bunch of Bay-style or Rogen-style reboots just to keep toys on the shelves. One could argue that the brand lost any remaining semblance of its "virginity" ages ago, but it's noticeably worse now that's it's 100% "just" a commodity. The shows and movies are terrible, will always be terrible, and a few cool toys and a cameo in a video game don't come close to wiping off the stink of those other things. So I'd prefer they stop trying to make those Other Things.

There's a mindset - one which I partly subscribe to; not with everything, but selectively - that things should end before they turn sour. It's like the Denis Leary Elvis rant - "Wouldn't it be great to remember Elvis thin, with that big head of hair and that gold lame' suit? But that's not how you remember Elvis. You KNOW how you remember Elvis." Now, I don't agree with Leary's (most likely joking) statement that "Someone should've just walked up behind Elvis back in 1957 and shot him in the head so we could all remember him in a good way and none of the later stuff ever happened", but I get his point. Some of the stuff towards the end did go a long way towards erasing or at least diminishing his earlier legacy in people's minds.

And that's all TMNT is now, or ever will be again. Fat Vegas-Era Elvis, with the occasional Greatest Hits record to remind you of the good old days. It's sad, and it's painful.

Basically, everything ends, and even though that can be sad there's something to be said for knowing when to call it a day. You never want to overstay your welcome at the party, or else you will absolutely embarrass yourself. Nobody will remember the awesome joke you told around 11pm that slayed the entire room, but they WILL remember you with the lampshade on your head, pissing in the potted plant at 4am. You never want THAT to be what people remember you for, but that's inevitably what happens when you stick around too long.

It's just nice when things stop before they turn sour. Endings are tough, but they're inevitable. And there's wisdom in knowing when enough is enough. Those hypothetical "new fans" can go pretend to care about something else, it's fine. The "fans" who've gotten into TMNT after the Nick sale haven't stuck around long-term anyway, so if TMNT went away tomorrow those people wouldn't care much, anyway. It's not some sort of cultural touchstone for those folks the way it was for us back in the day, it's completely different. Younger people nowadays simply aren't capable of becoming emotionally invested in their entertainment the way my generation did; everything is disposable and forgettable to those people. And seeing TMNT become something as disposable as a paper cup is frankly more depressing to me than watching it go away completely would be.

Some people wish Metallica quit making music after the Black Album, so Load and Reload and St. Anger never happened. Now, I don't agree with those people, but I absolutely get their point and I respect their opinion. There's definitely some wisdom in that. Now, I do get your point about other things, how sometimes you still get something good in between all the junk - as bad as St. Anger was, after that we got Death Magnetic, so it all sort of evened out, eventually - but to a lot of people, it still isn't worth it. I get it. On some things, it's better to just stop while you're ahead.

The vibe I get from some people with regard to TMNT - not all, but some - is simply fear. Fear of getting older, fear of "losing" something they care a lot about, lots of things all mixed together. "Losing" this cherished childhood thing is an unavoidable sign that time has passed, we're getting older, life isn't simple anymore, etc. etc. etc. And endings of any kind, big or small, are a reminder of our own mortality. On some level, it isn't even about TMNT specifically; people want it to stay around because they don't want to lose Yet Another Thing to the passage of time. They take comfort in knowing that some of those things from when they were young and innocent still exist. They say things like, "Even if I end up ignoring 99.999% of the product because it isn't for me, I'm just glad it exists." Well, if that person is ignoring everything new, anyway, then it may as well NOT exist for them anymore to begin with; what they're demonstrating is, again, a feeling of security and comfort, not actual engagement.

Put simply, wanting or forcing something to exist long past its expiration date is unnatural, and in some cases unhealthy. All things, in time, must end. That's the natural order of things. And I'd argue that TMNT still shuffling around as a zombified corpse 30 years from now would be incredibly sad and pathetic.

But that's my opinion.

"Why is it that I've spent my life doing everything in my power - which is staggering, even to me - preventing endings? Why is it I live to save worlds, when one's ending made me? Why do I fight against them? Isn't my existence proof enough... that there CAN be happy endings?"
- Superman, "For Tomorrow", Superman Vol. 2 #215

"Everything Dies."
- Type O Negative, "Everything Dies"

[Wildcat]

I love that artwork that was posted.

I voted take short term breaks maybe a little longer. Take more time developing something. That’s not to say effort wasn’t put into 2012 cartoon or Rise...or even the Bay movies to a point. It’s just that every attempt is not going to turn out favorably. Which is normal.

There’s franchises that are older and just as old as TMNT that have gone through various highs and lows. I don’t see why anything has to come to an absolute end. Specific storylines and individual versions must end of course but it’s unnecessary to end the entire property.

(I accidentally pressed post before finishing in case it seemed weird that I only wrote 2 lines)

[sdp]

I feel all franchises need a long hibernation after it gets done with a "cycle", it gives time to refresh, feel nostalgic about the franchise etc. When things go on and on and on, they kind of lose their appeal to me. Not that it matters since oldmanwinters just derailed the thread :tlol:

Even if it's fanart and not any new project I do feel the next project is going to be heavily influenced by the 1987 show, like a reimagining of the show, just look at how all merchandise is basically based of the 1987 show, the new game, the representation on the nick brawler etc. The fact that Rise of the TMNT failed, sent a loud message to viacom "FANS ONLY WANT 1987 TMNT", I think we're stuck in a 1987 rehash for the next decade at the very least.

[AquaParade]

Hibernation could be good, but then again, I’m not sure how that would change much. I don’t think it really increases the chances of it going in any particular direction. I suppose there would be less stuff to ignore lol.
I think if it sticks around, there are more attempts, which just gives more odds of good stuff coming out.
I respect the hibernation opinion, I just don’t see how it’d be beneficial. Maybe if this discussion had happened 15-20 years ago, I’d feel differently.

Probably helps that my favorite aspect of tmnt is still the place where they came from: comics. I even get joy out of seeing the monthly covers come in for the IDW ongoing, and I don’t even read it. I just like cool tmnt comic covers. So stuff like TLR go a long way for me. Same with reprints. Getting Image/Volume 3 reprinted in color, with a conclusion was damn awesome.

I get that it’s easy for fans of a specific Saturday morning cartoon, or the first movie, or whatever they’re “fix” was, to act like the show is over, but when an original creator is still alive and creating the comics, I’d say the show must go on. That’s a pretty special thing you don’t get with a lot of properties like this, especially this far into their life or in this day and age.

Kevin is still making tmnt comics. And they’re great. We can hibernate now, but we may never have that again, if we do.

[Leo656]

I mean, I guess that's nice. But Eastman's been openly rubber-stamping anything TMNT for a paycheck for so long now that he's basically just another Liefeld in my eyes. Just better at drawing.

It's why I wasn't sad when Laird packed it in. He had to stop himself multiple times from outright saying he wished he'd never even created TMNT. It was very clear that he had no emotional investment anymore and just wanted to wipe his hands of it all for good. And yet, people still wish for him to come back and "finish" something he'd emotionally divorced himself from ages ago. I have serious doubts he even had his heart in Vol. 4, no matter what he said at the time, and was only doing the series out of obligation to the audience and not out of any sincere want on his part.

On one hand, I didn't like what Laird was doing with the comics anyways, so him retiring was no skin off me. But at the same time, I was like "Okay, you really don't like doing this anymore, so you shouldn't have to, end of story." Even if I did like his direction I wouldn't be begging him to stay on if he didn't care anymore, that would be selfish.

Kevin, I don't think, has mentally "checked out" anywhere near the point where Pete did. I mean, obviously not, he chooses to remain involved. But it's still pretty clear to me that the whole TMNT gig is essentially, "It's all good as long as I get paid," and I'm kinda not a huge fan of that. He can stay involved as much as he wants, and that's fine, but even that isn't a huge deal to me by this point. Make no mistake, he's not in it for the love of the game, so while it's nice to see him get off the bench occasionally I'm certainly not gonna gush about it.

[AquaParade]

Nah, Kevin is all in on The Last Ronin. You can see the dude is pouring his back into the thing. It’s his legacy. And it’s damn cool to see him going at it so hard.

Kevin will do the promotion for the cruddy films and he’ll work for the paycheck, and he’ll even sell some weird ass **** on his website, but that doesn’t mean he isn’t a passionate creator. It’s cool if the comics aren’t your thing, but it seems like you’re out of the loop if you think Kevin is doing TLR simply for the paycheck. It’s clearly his baby.

Might agree with you on Peter Laird doing volume 4 though. That book reeks of depression.

[Leo656]

I just work with what the guy gives me. Again, he's said so many awful TMNT things were great that he comes off to me very clearly as a guy who'll say whatever so long as he gets paid.

I also own "Bodycount", and I paid for it, and it's junk, so I feel like I can be as critical as I want to of the guy. :lol: If anything HE probably owes ME a few bucks, for that.

I swear, both Kevin and Pete to me come off as pretty much hopeless without the other one to reign them in. They both did Good Things and Bad Things, but to me they only ever did Great Things when they were working together. They cancelled out each others' weaknesses pretty well, given their completely different sensibilities and priorities. As a solo act, each of them has thoroughly underwhelmed me. Although I do think Kevin is a bit better at handing a commercial property than Peter was, and seems to have a bit more on the ball as far as that goes. Peter was "booking" TMNT entirely for himself, whereas Kevin has a better sense of what the larger audience wants, which is important when working in the mainstream.

Also, you gotta remember that to me, Last Ronin is "just pretty good". Way too much of a love letter to The Dark Knight Returns, which is a story I've never been in love with to begin with, so what you essentially have (for me) is a TMNT-flavored retread of something I never thought was fantastic to start with. I get what they're going for and it's about a hundred times better than what the ongoing book is, but it's still not like the best thing ever, or anything. I feel like if the ongoing wasn't trash then TLR wouldn't be so mind-blowing for so many people.

It's Perfectly Fine and it's more on the right track with what things ought'a be. But again, I'm not gonna gush, I don't feel like gushing, you can't make me. :trazz:


Might agree with you on Peter Laird doing volume 4 though. That book reeks of depression.

And mid-life crisis, to boot.

At BEST, Vol. 4 is a slog. At worst, it's navel-gazing and joyless.

Really WANTED to like it, but for me, that series peaked with Issue 1 and never, ever got its heat back.

[AquaParade]

I agree that Kevin and Peter made a great team. They complimented each other and alleviated the flaws.

Bodycount was a mess, but from what it sounds like, Kevin pretty much had to tie Bisley down to get him to draw the pages and they didnt even always follow the script. And they're friends. I sort of feel for him on that one. But yeah, he may owe you a few bucks.

TLR is awesome, man. In comparison to the ongoing, for sure. It's not on the same shelf as the classics they are aspiring to, but not much is.
Quite honestly, it's exactly what tmnt should be, which yeah, is a miracle compared to what we usually get.

Yeah, issue #1 of volume 4 was good, wasn't it. I remember going back to that series a handful of years ago, and thinking "Hold up, this isn't so bad..." at the start. There are bits I like later on, but the pacing is horrible.

[Leo656]

I think perhaps, for me, the whole "Dark Future" angle is overplayed by now.

First Batman, and then they did a Superman Annual in 1991 that inverted that story with Superman as the focus (great issue, by the way), and then they did "Spider-Man: Reign" which was eh, and then all the terrible DKR sequels, and by now even TMNT have had several "dark future" stories of their own.

Basically, I'm over the whole non-canon Dark Future stuff just in general. I've seen it. Even at its best, by now its just an unavoidably derivative concept. Which isn't to say TLR is doing it poorly, it's just to say that I can't help but be bored by the entire idea in general after seeing it done, re-done, and overdone over the last 35 years. Especially since by way of being non-canon What If stuff, for me anyway it immediately negates a huge chunk of the emotional investment.

It's like watching The Exorcist as an atheist; if you're a devout Catholic or Christian, then it's a terrifying and engaging horror movie. If you're a non-believer, then it's a comedy with some pretty laughable overacting. How you come to the material in turn effects your opinion of it. If you're like me, then "non-canon What If" is shorthand for "None of this actually matters", and immediately, I care less. Granted, not everybody is like that, but that's how it works in my head.

What WOULD get me a bit more excited would be if there was an ongoing present-day TMNT which had some of the same sensibilities as TLR. The stakes immediately feel higher for me when a storyline is Creating Canon and not avoiding it on purpose. But again, that's me.

[Wildcat]

I don’t read the comics or follow Kevin Eastman on social media but whenever I do see an interview or something I think he genuinely likes staying with TMNT.

It’s a huge franchise (despite what some might think or recent material). It’s a legacy franchise by now. It’s so ingrained in pop culture I’m sure he’s proud of it. I’m sure he dislikes some versions too. He just can’t come out and trash it.

I don’t think he keeps doing it for money though. He could have stepped away years ago if he wanted.

[Leo656]

I don’t think he keeps doing it for money though. He could have stepped away years ago if he wanted.

I'unno about all that. I'm not in any way involved in the situation but I'm aware he had some business ventures blow up on him over the years, and that he himself was at various points alleged to have engaged in some questionable business practices outside of Mirage.

I'm sure he's doing very well, but I doubt he's at "F*ck-You Money" status. He cashed out on his ownership of TMNT long before Laird did, AND the $60 million that Nick paid Laird for the brand is... well, kind of a joke. I mean You or I would kill a truckload of orphans for $60 million dollars, but it's actually not a ton of money considering how "huge" the brand is supposed to be. They spent more on either of the BayTurtles movies than they did for the entire franchise, for f*ck's sake.

Consider that Disney paid over $4 billion to George Lucas for Star Wars, and it really hammers home how small-time the TMNT franchise truly is. In the grand scheme of things, it's... nothing. It's only big to "us" because we care about it.

Anyways, Eastman had already cashed out years before then, and whatever he got back in the day, I highly doubt it was anywhere near $60 million. He probably doesn't "have" to work these days, but it's probably in his best financial interests to do so. Outside of TMNT, his track record is... spotty.

And, not to be mean or anything, but it bears pointing out that like most others from Mirage, if it's not TMNT-related nobody was ever exactly beating down any of their doors with job offers. Whether it's fair or not, outside of TMNT Eastman (and Laird as well) never managed to achieve any tremendous success, and there are multiple reasons for that, I figure. Eastman's greatest success outside of TMNT was arguably with Heavy Metal, but he bought into that, it's not like he created it. And some say he wasn't exactly great in that role, either, but I wasn't there nor did I follow the situation very closely. I just know that outside of Mirage, not everyone who worked with the guy has great things to say about him.

For my money, Eastman's greatest "success" wasn't even with TMNT, anyways. It was banging Julie Strain back when that meant something.

[Wildcat]

I'unno about all that. I'm not in any way involved in the situation but I'm aware he had some business ventures blow up on him over the years, and that he himself was at various points alleged to have engaged in some questionable business practices outside of Mirage.

I'm sure he's doing very well, but I doubt he's at "F*ck-You Money" status. He cashed out on his ownership of TMNT long before Laird did, AND the $60 million that Nick paid Laird for the brand is... well, kind of a joke. I mean You or I would kill a truckload of orphans for $60 million dollars, but it's actually not a ton of money considering how "huge" the brand is supposed to be. They spent more on either of the BayTurtles movies than they did for the entire franchise, for f*ck's sake.

Consider that Disney paid over $4 billion to George Lucas for Star Wars, and it really hammers home how small-time the TMNT franchise truly is. In the grand scheme of things, it's... nothing. It's only big to "us" because we care about it.

Anyways, Eastman had already cashed out years before then, and whatever he got back in the day, I highly doubt it was anywhere near $60 million. He probably doesn't "have" to work these days, but it's probably in his best financial interests to do so. Outside of TMNT, his track record is... spotty.

And, not to be mean or anything, but it bears pointing out that like most others from Mirage, if it's not TMNT-related nobody was ever exactly beating down any of their doors with job offers. Whether it's fair or not, outside of TMNT Eastman (and Laird as well) never managed to achieve any tremendous success, and there are multiple reasons for that, I figure. Eastman's greatest success outside of TMNT was arguably with Heavy Metal, but he bought into that, it's not like he created it. And some say he wasn't exactly great in that role, either, but I wasn't there nor did I follow the situation very closely. I just know that outside of Mirage, not everyone who worked with the guy has great things to say about him.

For my money, Eastman's greatest "success" wasn't even with TMNT, anyways. It was banging Julie Strain back when that meant something.Oh man, the orphans line made me laugh.

Well I don’t know about his personal business either but I think he views TMNT as more than a paycheck. He co-created what ended up being iconic characters.

I agree Laird should have gotten more. I don’t remember any of the Nick figures from then.

[Leo656]

Well yeah, if you create something then it's always gonna mean at least SLIGHTLY more than just money. But as we've seen in Laird's case, arguably not always MUCH more. He sold the brand for a song just to be rid of it.

I do think Kevin cares more than Laird does, definitely. How much, I can't say. But I doubt he'd be doing this for free, let's just put it like that.

[frank_one]

Nah. Peter was the one who cared. He had an opinion about what was good for the franchise and he wasn't afraid to fight for it. At the end he sold the Turtles as a consequence of a long and incurable burnout after he had been "the Turtles guy" for most of his life. He obtained more money than he will be able to spend in his remaining years but STILL he asked Viacom for the right to publish some Turtles comics a year. This is something to remember.
Kevin? Man, he sold his part of Turtles way before 2009. He will openly say that every new iteration of the franchise is cool if you pay him enough. He is definetely not the one to trust.

[LeotheLateBloomer]

I feel all franchises need a long hibernation after it gets done with a "cycle", it gives time to refresh, feel nostalgic about the franchise etc. When things go on and on and on, they kind of lose their appeal to me. Not that it matters since oldmanwinters just derailed the thread :tlol:

Even if it's fanart and not any new project I do feel the next project is going to be heavily influenced by the 1987 show, like a reimagining of the show, just look at how all merchandise is basically based of the 1987 show, the new game, the representation on the nick brawler etc. The fact that Rise of the TMNT failed, sent a loud message to viacom "FANS ONLY WANT 1987 TMNT", I think we're stuck in a 1987 rehash for the next decade at the very least.

If it does happen, I have a feeling it won't last. It's really only going to appeal to the small minority of fans who still hold onto nostalgia. I mean is anyone watching the new Animaniacs series on Hulu? As someone who would rush home from school to watch the original show, I've only watched one episode of the new series and while I enjoyed it, I haven't watched the rest of it ever since. People jumped up for joy when they saw the trailers for it only to either not tune in for it or to watch an episode and drop off from there. I don't think anyone's paying attention to the Rugrats reboot.

I've never said this before but I believe more fans are really into the 90s films than the FW toon, especially if we include fans born in the mid-90s. They're introduction to turtles came from the 90s movies and I had a chat with quite a number of people that were born around 94 or younger and they've heard of the original cartoon but they never got into it. There are FW fans that love both FW and the 90s films while others who love the movies may never have been into FW.

Also that picture could very well be just fanart. It leans more towards Archie than FW.

[frank_one]

Might agree with you on Peter Laird doing volume 4 though. That book reeks of depression.Like, you know, most of the comics from Mirage. "Life at best is bittersweet".

[Leo656]

Perhaps I misspoke. "Cares more" was too broad, and as you've pointed out, not entirely accurate.

I guess I should have said, "Cares enough to want to remain involved even now." Or, "At one point, Laird cared more, but now it's Eastman, since he still wants to be involved but Laird doesn't."

Laird definitely cared more about "what was right for the brand", sure. At least back then. As I pointed out, Eastman is more of a "rubber-stamp" guy. Anything TMNT, to him, is "awesome"... especially if he gets paid for saying so.

But yeah my previous statement wasn't entirely accurate. In my defense, I've been chatting with Andrew on FB this whole time and he has a smooth-ass narrator's voice so I might be a little distracted. :lol: Seriously, though, someone hire this guy to do some books on tape, stat. :trazz:

No wonder he pulled down so much Drome Trim back in the day. Allegedly. "Back When That Meant Something." :lol::trazz:

[mrmaczaps]

Perhaps I misspoke. "Cares more" was too broad, and as you've pointed out, not entirely accurate.

I guess I should have said, "Cares enough to want to remain involved even now." Or, "At one point, Laird cared more, but now it's Eastman, since he still wants to be involved but Laird doesn't."

Laird definitely cared more about "what was right for the brand", sure. At least back then. As I pointed out, Eastman is more of a "rubber-stamp" guy. Anything TMNT, to him, is "awesome"... especially if he gets paid for saying so.

But yeah my previous statement wasn't entirely accurate. In my defense, I've been chatting with Andrew on FB this whole time and he has a smooth-ass narrator's voice so I might be a little distracted. :lol: Seriously, though, someone hire this guy to do some books on tape, stat. :trazz:

No wonder he pulled down so much Drome Trim back in the day. Allegedly. "Back When That Meant Something." :lol::trazz:

Eastman cares more to stay involved because they pay him AND because the fans (some of you) can be milked out of every dime you have just to get him to sign some random @$$ sh¡t for a fee... And I say that as someone who has been in line wishing I had a few spare dimes to pay him to do a sketch or whatever. One of his handlers at shows even gave me hell on two occasions because she didn't like that I bought items elsewhere & showed up with those items to have him sign... lol. And as of Granite Con 2 years back, he supposedly said he "owes me a beer"... but I had to skip out early cuz I was exhausted & dehydrated... and I don't drink beer. Lol

I'm not saying any of that as a negative either. He knows where he can get paid & doesn't have to do much new to get money... last I was aware, IDW pays him pretty much the same rates as anyone else they employ so he isn't rolling in the cash from doing covers & stuff. I enjoyed conversing with him as much as Laird, Lawson, Lavigne or any of the other Mirage guys... And they're always happy to sign stuff (usually for free, except Eastman)...

[AquaParade]

You can chase the dollar and be passionate. That's where Kevin is at.

He loves to see his creations live on in any shape or form, because who doesn't want to see the seeds of their imagination become a worldwide phenomenon.

He likes to get paid.

But he is clearly passionate about comics and is putting his full heart in to The Last Ronin. It's clearer than day if you just follow the guy, listen to his interviews, or read his work. It's a bummer that people would think otherwise. I guess that's what happens when you sell used Playmates toys, from your "personal collection" on your website. Stuff like that does seem a little strange.

[Andrew NDB]

But he is clearly passionate about comics and is putting his full heart in to The Last Ronin.

Well... that's not entirely true. If he was putting his "full heart" into TLR then surely he'd be writing it and drawing it. He is doing neither of those things.

[AquaParade]

Well... that's not entirely true. If he was putting his "full heart" into TLR then surely he'd be writing it and drawing it. He is doing neither of those things.

Yeah he is.

He's doing 200+ pages of layouts, plotted it himself based on his and Laird's idea, and is scripting the whole thing in back and forth fashion with Tom, just like he did with Peter Laird, except with a bit more control on Kevin's side.
Multiple covers for every issue.
He is directing and collaborating in every aspect, on every single panel, like he did with the original Mirage books. Are we going to say his full heart wasn't in those, because Peter was involved?

The team is big, but he is involved heavily in every aspect. They've been on a short leash with the deadlines and it's 10 issues worth of comics, so it makes sense.

Yes, comics are a collaborative medium. When I say he is putting his full heart in it, it doesn't mean he is even doing the lettering and stapling the book himself. I'd even feel comfortable saying this if he was only doing one aspect of the book, such as writing. I think you're taking "full heart" a bit too literally, my man. It's a figurative thing.

[Andrew NDB]

He's doing 200+ pages of layouts and plotting/scripting the whole thing in back and forth fashion with Tom, just like he did with Peter Laird, except with a bit more control on Kevin's side.
Multiple covers for every issue.
He is directing and collaborating in every aspect, on every single panel, like he did with the original Mirage books. Are we going to say his full heart wasn't in those, because Peter was involved?

No, but in lieu of Laird's involvement I would think Kevin would want to go at it himself. Also, I think that's what most fans would want. He's perfectly capable of writing and drawing his own comics, solo, and has in the past. Who better to capture the spirit and original vision of "The Last Ronin" than one of the only two guys who came up with it in 1987 who is willing to still work on TMNT today?

And I'm not sure I buy that Eastman is all that involved in the scripts. Maybe on a cursory basis or approval level, or maybe he has a suggestion about this line or that line or an action beat. But it's not like Kevin and Peter's collaboration. Both Kevin and Peter were wired pretty much 50/50 as writers and artists the whole way through (though I suspect Laird had more interest in story than Kevin). You bring in Tom Waltz, that guy is a dedicated writer who does one thing and that is story and it is script. His collaboration is going to be very different than what it was when it was Kevin and Peter.

Covers and layouts are great but that's not drawing or writing a book. That'd be like crediting the storyboard guy for movies as the lead cameraman, or any cameraman. Or crediting the storyboard guy as screenwriter. It's not remotely the same thing.

Yes, comics are a collaborative medium. When I say he is putting his full heart in it, it doesn't mean he is even doing the lettering and stapling the book himself.

What a really dumb thing to say. Did that read as clever before you typed it out? Let's not pretend this is about semantics. Obviously when I suggest he ought to be writing and drawing the book solo, it is because these are things he is known for doing -- and solo -- in the past. These aren't things that would be new to him, or even unusual at all for him to be doing.

[AquaParade]

No, but in lieu of Laird's involvement I would think Kevin would want to go at it himself. Also, I think that's what most fans would want. He's perfectly capable of writing and drawing his own comics, solo, and has in the past. Who better to capture the spirit and original vision than one of the only two guys who came up with it who is willing to still work on TMNT today?

Covers and layouts are great but that's not drawing a book. That'd be like crediting the storyboard guy for movies as the lead cameraman, or any cameraman. It's not remotely the same thing.

Who says all of Kevin's fans want him drawing it all by himself? I've always loved him most on layouts and when he works with someone else, he shines. The same was true of his collabs with Peter.
Not to mention, as a bonus, there are pages in nearly every issue that Kevin completed by himself, which "captures the spirit" you are speaking of.

Your analogy doesn't hold water. Layouts are way closer to the final product in a comic, than layouts are to a 3d space like filmmaking. Especially when you are doing all the scripting and plotting. Kevin is the "director" in that analogy, and yeah, they do end up with a bit of credit for everything, don't they?

What a really dumb thing to say. Did that read as clever before you typed it out? Let's not pretend this is about semantics. Obviously when I suggest he ought to be writing and drawing the book solo, it is because these are things he is known for doing -- and solo -- in the past. These aren't things that would be new to him, or even unusual at all for him to be doing.


No, I think the dumb thing to say was "his full heart can't really be in it, if he doesn't write and draw it all by himself." WhhAA?

Yeah, my exaggerated response may have been a little harsh, but it's just an odd judgement call to make that someone can't be fully passionate about a project, if they are collaborating with a team.

Especially in the comics medium.

Especially with a dude famous for his collaboration of "Eastman and Lairds TMNT".

And I'm not sure I buy that Eastman is all that involved in the scripts..

Yeah, but you didn't "buy" that this book would have a violence level beyond what was shown in the ongoing, or that it would show the turtles killing, and look how that turned out for you. Donatello rammed his staff through a guy's face last issue.
Kevin and Tom have stated that Kevin is in "the driver's seat" now, and they are working in a "completely different way" than how they worked on the ongoing. Kevin has said this is him taking the lead again.
So be skeptical, but also keep in mind this isn't the first time you've doubted what they were saying about the book and been proven wrong.

[shredder orokusaki]

Continue all the time. There must be new series comics and movies all the time! But only comics are doing this unfortunately as we dont have a new series for more than 1 year.

[CyberCubed]

When I become a millionaire the first thing I will do is buy the TMNT IP and only invite the best writers of the industry to reboot it with a new movie line, cartoon series, and comic.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

When I become a millionaire the first thing I will do is buy the TMNT IP and only invite the best writers of the industry to reboot it with a new movie line, cartoon series, and comic.

You're not too far from there since you already have $100,000+ in your bank account.

[shredder orokusaki]

You're not too far from there since you already have $100,000+ in your bank account.

How do you know how much money he has? Do you know him in person?

[FredWolfLeonardo]

How do you know how much money he has? Do you know him in person?

He has talked about it here before.

[terrorblade]

A 2 to 3 year break between cartoon shows would suffice, life's too short to get more than a 5 year break.

Let those who moved on from the franchise to move on permanently. I moved on from lots of other things used to enjoy when I was younger but I just can't see myself wishing those things to just stop existing because I'm done having fun with them.

[Coola Yagami]

In regards to Leo's hypothetical, I'd probably do it, and with luck the butterfly ripple effect will somehow make Corona never happen. Two birds, one stone.

[the_minimizer]

The way I see is 1987 tmnt is a done deal. Nothing will ever change that. 2k3 tmnt I never got into much. 2012 tmnt is done too. At worst, they get remade, reimagined or rebooted.

[oldmanwinters]

Nickelodeon's official Instagram posted that cool but uncredited artwork again (http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showpost.php?p=1907926&postcount=18), but with a new background pattern this time around:
https://i.imgur.com/UtkTPiKm.jpg
https://www.instagram.com/p/CrlRBjLOvL6/
https://i.imgur.com/UtkTPiK.jpg

[CyberCubed]

The Turtles have better designs here than in the new Mutant Mayhem movie. These art look like a cool mix of some of the Archie TMNT designs with the original cartoon ones.

I doubt it means anything though.