Alec Baldwin shoots and kills his own cinematographer

[Andrew NDB]

Jeeze...

https://www.darkhorizons.com/cinematographer-killed-in-rust-set-accident/

[Wildcat]

I saw this on tv.

It’s very sad and scary that the movie is also about an accidental death.

I did not know until I read it in the article.

[Papenbrook]

The director is also left in critical condition.

This is exactly why workplace safety should be a priority. Accidents and tragedies shouldn't occur on film sets.

I send my condolences to their loved ones.

[Leo656]

Jesus.

I confess, I don't know much about movie SFX. But one would think that in the age of CGI and "just do it with computers", prop guns that actually have stuff in them would've been one of the first things to go. You can add both the sound effects and "discharge" in post, can't you? Why do we need to still use "blanks"? This isn't the first time a prop gun malfunctioned and someone died, after all.

I figured after Brandon Lee died, all that stuff would've gone out the window forever. 30 years later, here we are again.

Stupid. Pointless. Needless. You got the stupid computer SFX, use 'em.

[Wildcat]

That’s exactly what I was going to say. Just use cgi. Nobody will or should care that the brief fire of a gunshot is cgi.

There’s no need for anything to actually be shot out.

I did not know about some of the other accidents until they were mentioned on the Blu Ray forum.

[Leo656]

I mean it's insane. I sincerely can't believe blanks are still a thing in this day and age. I'm always going on and on about "practical effects are the better option" but also, safety trumps all of that. Once is an accident. Twice is just carelessness.

If I were an actor, I'd be goddamned if anyone would EVER point a gun at me that had anything in it. Not a blank, not a goddamn dandelion.

Stupid. And now Baldwin's gonna have this on his conscience for the rest of his life. It's not his fault, but still. He technically killed the person. That's heavy sh*t to live with.

AND he's had a long history of substance abuse problems. This is exactly the kind of thing that has a way of sending people into a downward spiral which can last forever (see Scott Hall).

Such a f*cking pointless goddamn thing to happen. Multiple lives ruined. One over with completely. For literally no goddamn good reason at all.

[1987]

https://mobile.twitter.com/alecbaldwln____/status/911425278123048960

[Wildcat]

I mean it's insane. I sincerely can't believe blanks are still a thing in this day and age. I'm always going on and on about "practical effects are the better option" but also, safety trumps all of that. Once is an accident. Twice is just carelessness.

If I were an actor, I'd be goddamned if anyone would EVER point a gun at me that had anything in it. Not a blank, not a goddamn dandelion.

Stupid. And now Baldwin's gonna have this on his conscience for the rest of his life. It's not his fault, but still. He technically killed the guy. That's heavy sh*t to live with.

AND he's had a long history of substance abuse problems. This is exactly the kind of thing that has a way of sending people into a downward spiral which can last forever (see Scott Hall).

Such a f*cking pointless goddamn thing to happen. Multiple lives ruined. One over with completely. For literally no goddamn good reason at all.It was the girl that died. The guy is in the hospital.

Ya I feel bad for Alec Baldwin. It’s an awful thing to have in the back of your mind.

Just use guns that have nothing in them or use realistic fake guns.

[Leo656]

Sorry I misspoke, I read the article rather fast and I missed the part that the person who died was a woman. Whoops. That's on me. Post corrected.

[Ninjinister]

https://mobile.twitter.com/alecbaldwln____/status/911425278123048960

OUCH! Dark

[Andrew NDB]

Yeah. All kinds of yeesh.

[ZariusTwo]

And now Baldwin's gonna have this on his conscience for the rest of his life. It's not his fault, but still. He technically killed the person. That's heavy sh*t to live with.

And that's the troubling thing. Baldwin's not going to have a whole lot of years left in him, and s*it like this so late in your career is kind of a 'final chapter' watermark moment.

Alec's fairytale should have been calling it a day after the Trump parodies (not trying to press any hot buttons on that, just an observation)

Anyway, IATSE have got to be feeling pretty damn stupid right now. All of this could have been avoided on Monday.

[newfan]

What a damn tragedy for all involved.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

YIKES! I have always liked the Baldwins, Alec in particular. This is so sad, and so eerily similar to what happened with Brandon Lee. Just the other way around this time. Terrible news....

[triplexxx]

A very tragic occurrence, in the film industry, just like in the sports industry, things/accidents like this can happen. My condolences to director of photography Halyna Hutchins, up in heaven now, as well as her family, to director Joel Souza, hoping he recovers, and to Alec Baldwin who will be having a hard time with this for the rest of his life, hopefully he can find a way to cope with it.

[IMJ]

Sounds similar to what happened to Brandon Lee and Michael Masse on The Crow.

[Sumac]

This is horrible.
I don't know how someone would be able to return to "normal state" after such experience.

[Andrew NDB]

For the record, I've been on many sets with real guns, and many sets with blanks being fired (once, right at my camera/me). There's many benefits to using blanks and not just pantomiming out gunshots.

[ChosenOne]

Everything I could say about this has already been said, probably better than I could say it to boot, but I have just one question: I get the accidental discharge scenario, which is tragic enough, but why did he fire the gun at two different people?

[IndigoErth]

Such a tragedy. How do you even live with that etched in your brain. Hope he gets the great counseling that he's probably going to need for the rest of his days. :cry:

Have to agree, with as far as the technology has come and CGI being able to be totally indistinguishable from the real thing in many cases, why are something as simple as prop guns still using blanks, or firing at all for that matter? Maybe now the industry will decide it needs to move past that, and if so, hopefully, it's just terribly tragic that, as usual, it took something like this (again) to make improvements.

If they want the acting and motion authentic, than have an actor train with an expert, get a feel for how a particular real gun fires, than let them do what they do best on set with a fake version that can't hurt anyone.

[Andrew NDB]

Such a tragedy. How do you even live with that etched in your brain. Hope he gets the great counseling that he's probably going to need for the rest of his days. :cry:

Not everyone is wired that way. If he was handed a gun by a propmaster that swore up and down it was fine that's 100% on him and not, say, Baldwin. But it's still very sh**ty.

In the unlikely event it turns out that Baldwin was like waving away people and was like, "No no, I'm sure this gun is fine, you don't need to check it" then that's another story.

Have to agree, with as far as the technology has come and CGI being able to be totally indistinguishable from the real thing in many cases, why are something as simple as prop guns still using blanks, or firing at all for that matter?

Because you get the noise to react to, real recoil, you get flash, you get real surprise from everyone in front of the camera, you get a smoking casing popping out and hitting the floor and it immerses everyone into what you're shooting. Also it's pretty affordable. And has been going on for 100 years.

Maybe now the industry will decide it needs to move past that

Hopefully not.

If they want the acting and motion authentic, than have an actor train with an expert, get a feel for how a particular real gun fires, than let them do what they do best on set with a fake version that can't hurt anyone.

A gun with blanks is a version that can't hurt anyone (but it does make scary noises that may equal violence or harm to people who have a girlfriend who has a boyfriend or believe that voter ID is racist). Something else happened here. I'm sure there will be a very public investigation to follow.

[Papenbrook]

I would assume that VFX work is likely ( already ) expensive, and that it would likely be much cheaper to just use a prop gun with blanks. Plus, occurrences such as this are quite a rarity.

Thus, companies don't usually bother with applying/transferring to a different filming technique/method.

I myself feel hesitant to just place all weaponry filming/handling to VFX crews.

VFX artists/designers are already overworked and underpaid as is. Multiple VFX studios are pushed to their absolute limits by film studios. As a result, the VFX companies either shut down and/or lay off hordes of people. Hell, some VFX workers just quit/retire altogether.

The film/television industry desperately needs some sort of reset.

[Andrew NDB]

I would assume that VFX work is likely ( already ) expensive, and that it would likely be much cheaper to just use a prop gun with blanks.

That's hardly the point or remotely the issue. If you're filming a sequence where someone shoots somebody else... if you CAN, you will want to be using blanks. It will look better, it'll sound real, and you'll get genuine performances.

[IndigoErth]

Okay, but shouldn't the same sort of reasons and decision making apply to, say, a Jaws remake?

[Andrew NDB]

Okay, but shouldn't the same sort of reasons and decision making apply to, say, a Jaws remake?

No. No, it shouldn't.

[Leo656]

Yeah, and in my business the standard used to be, "Never put your hand up on a chairshot to the head. Just let 'em crack you full-speed, unprotected." Because it "looked better", "made a better noise", and as a bonus, actually hurt really bad, thus "enhancing the realism."

Except, y'know... it's all fake, and everybody knows it's all fake.

And then a guy got so much brain damage from unprotected shots to the head, he tied his wife up with duct tape and strangled her to death with an extension cord, then strangled his son to death before hanging himself in his basement.

Now everybody just puts their hands up. Or else they just don't swing for the head.

Once people are legitimately getting hurt or killed in the name of "enhancing the realism" of something every single person knows is patently fake, it is no longer important for anything to look THAT "real". The Risk/Reward balance simply isn't favorable.

[Andrew NDB]

2 deaths in 2 non-indie movies out of tens of thousands of movies over 100 years of cinema that've featured guns with blanks is a pretty good running average. And taking chairshots to the face vs. getting shot with air 99.9999999999999999999% of the time is hardly the same thing. You'd have a better chance at dying from COVID if you're a healthy, fit 9 year-old with no pre-existing conditions than accidentally dying from a blank or killing someone with one. Or winning the lottery, for that matter.

The only person or thing to get mad at is the checks and balances system that put a gun with either a defective internal mechanism, some kind of debris in the nozzle or a defective blank (honestly I've never heard of such a thing) into Alec's hands. But again, I'm positive we'll learn a bunch more in the coming days.

[IndigoErth]

But it's just not believable or genuine enough if modern film shark attacks aren't authentic.

[Andrew NDB]

But it's just not believable or genuine enough if modern film shark attacks aren't authentic.

That's stupid.

[ChosenOne]

But it's just not believable or genuine enough if modern film shark attacks aren't authentic.

How do you suggest they handle future Jurassic movies?

[IMJ]

Everything I could say about this has already been said, probably better than I could say it to boot, but I have just one question: I get the accidental discharge scenario, which is tragic enough, but why did he fire the gun at two different people?

There is already debate about how the gun had a live round in it - I guess the crew had spent weeks on social media explaining that they were abused by the cast and director, etc. So of course there are already theories about that....

But with that said, my understanding is that he fired one time and the round went through the cinematographer, exited her and into the Director.

[Wildcat]

Entire scenes are made with cgi now and actors pretend to interact with things that are not there. Using cgi gunshots and sound effects does not lessen the authenticity or the actors believability.

We have animatronics and fantasy weapons. I’m sure fake realistic guns that don’t shoot anything can be made.

I know these accidents are rare but the point is taking out the possibility because mistakes happen.

[Leo656]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/sheriff-baldwin-fired-prop-gun-100904090.html

SANTA FE, N.M. (AP) — Alec Baldwin was handed a loaded weapon by an assistant director who indicated it was safe to use in the moments before the actor fatally shot a cinematographer, court records released Friday show.

The assistant director did not know the prop gun was loaded with live rounds, according to a search warrant filed in a Santa Fe court.

Cinematographer Halyna Hutchins was shot in the chest on the set of a Western starring Baldwin. Director Joel Souza was wounded. The records said he was standing behind her.

Boy. Sure seems like these "accidents" happen more often than they should, if the last few lines of the article are to be believed.

Lee, son of martial arts star Bruce Lee, died in 1993 after being hit by a .44-caliber slug while filming a death scene for the movie “The Crow.” The gun was supposed to have fired a blank, but an autopsy turned up a bullet lodged near his spine.

In 1984, actor Jon-Erik Hexum died after shooting himself in the head with a prop gun blank while pretending to play Russian roulette with a .44 Magnum on the set of the television series “Cover Up.”

Such shootings have also happened during historical reenactments. In 2015, an actor staging a historical gunfight in Tombstone, Arizona, was shot and wounded with a live round during a show that was supposed to use blanks.

In Hill City, South Dakota, a tourist town that recreates an Old West experience, three spectators were wounded in 2011 when a re-enactor fired real bullets instead of blanks.

Yeah, nah, this is stupid. Just do something else. Once bitten, twice (gun)shy. No real reason things like this need to happen. It's entertainment.


I know these accidents are rare but the point is taking out the possibility because mistakes happen.

Once is an accident. Twice is carelessness. After that it's simply having no value for human life if it interferes with the "realism" of a completely make-believe scenario.

It's not defensible. People can try and defend it if they want, that's their prerogative. But it's simply not defensible, objectively. It'd be such an easy thing to change so that nobody ever has to die that specific way ever again.

Or, we can get super hung up on just how "real" it was when the actor onscreen went "EEEEK!", or whatever. Because that's ultimately the more important thing, I guess.

I think if you took a poll, like globally, I think MOST people would be fine if gunshot scenes were a few percentage points less "realistic" so long as nobody ever got shot in the f*cking head again. Pretty sure most people would make that trade gladly. I don't KNOW that, but that's my feeling.

Lots of times, when people die, other people say "There's nothing anyone could've done." Most times, that's true.

In cases where that's NOT true, and something COULD have been done, there's a responsibility to ensure that such "mistakes" never happen again. If it's a preventable incident, then you work to prevent a repeat of the incident. Very simple.

[Leo656]

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/brandon-lee-family-responds-fatal-prop-gun-shooting-alec-baldwin-film-set-144429369.html

Brandon Lee's family responds to fatal prop gun shooting on Alec Baldwin film set: 'No one should ever be killed by a gun on a film set'

When news broke that a fatal shooting involving a prop gun occurred on the Santa Fe, New Mexico set of the Alec Baldwin film, Rust, many drew a connection to a similar tragedy that claimed the life of Brandon Lee during the production of the 1994 film, The Crow. Now, Shannon Lee — Brandon's sister — has issued a statement through her sibling's official Twitter account.

"Our hearts go out the family of Halyna Hutchins and to Joel Souza and all involved in the incident of on Rust," she writes, referencing the film's cinematographer and director respectively. "No one should ever be killed by a gun on a film set. Period."

---

Lee's tragic on-set death has remained a Hollywood cautionary tale about gun safety for almost three decades. And Shannon Lee's statement has allowed fans to mourn his loss — along with the loss of Halyna Hutchins — all over again.


https://www.yahoo.com/news/alec-baldwin-rust-camera-crew-193409810.html

'Rust' crew describes on-set gun safety issues and misfires days before fatal shooting

---------
Safety protocols standard in the industry, including gun inspections, were not strictly followed on the "Rust" set near Santa Fe, the sources said. They said at least one of the camera operators complained last weekend to a production manager about gun safety on the set.

Three crew members who were present at the Bonanza Creek Ranch set on Saturday said they were particularly concerned about two accidental prop gun discharges.

Baldwin's stunt double accidentally fired two rounds Saturday after being told that the gun was "cold" — lingo for a weapon that doesn't have any ammunition, including blanks — two crew members who witnessed the episode told the Los Angeles Times.

"There should have been an investigation into what happened," the crew member said. "There were no safety meetings. There was no assurance that it wouldn't happen again. All they wanted to do was rush, rush, rush."

A colleague was so alarmed by the prop gun misfires that he sent a text message to the unit production manager. "We've now had 3 accidental discharges. This is super unsafe," according to a copy of the message reviewed by The Times.


Sloppy Shop. It's good no charges are being filed against Baldwin, but all of this suggests that at some point someone is going to be held liable. Probably not criminally, but I fully expect a civil suit against the studio and a big, big payout.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. "Oops".

[IndigoErth]

So there had already been other very recent issues prior to this incident?? If there was ever reason to strike and walk off the set, that might have been it.

How do you suggest they handle future Jurassic movies?
Obviusly CGI can't really make it real enough, so no more films until they can really bring them back. That way they can also use them to make a real park afterwards and really bring the films to life in all their repeating tragic glory.

[Leo656]

Yeah, apparently the set's just been one gun-related disaster after another all week long and multiple people working on the movie made noise about it. The more I read about it the more I have to shake my head. This was preventable, but sadly, inevitable under the circumstances.

Sloppy Shop.

I feel bad about my snarky comments about "Oh, those poor movie people" the other day. To be clear, I wasn't snarking them about Things Like This. Things like this are exactly why there should be advocates and oversight.

[Wildcat]

There should not even be real bullets on a set.

I thought guns don’t flash in real life. That it’s something movies started and it kept on. I thought the Mythbusters did a segment showing how it’s done but I guess I’m remembering wrong. A flash does happen.

I remember they showed something about it. Maybe it was a certain type.

[Leo656]

There should not even be real bullets on a set.


I'd actually love to know how/why that happens.

I assume it's to test to make sure that the guns are firing properly. But... I don't know, can't they do that somewhere else and then just bring the empty guns to the set once ensured that they're empty?

Allegedly the woman responsible for overseeing the gun safety was a real screw-up in general. Only 25, seems more like she got her job because her Mommy worked in the business than anything. Probably not qualified or experienced enough to even be put in charge of such things.

I confess, part of me sincerely does want to make a joke about "Who even put a woman in charge of the guns, anyway? They're guns, not cupcakes." However, this isn't really a joking matter.

[ZariusTwo]

ABC's 'The Rookie', effective immediately, won't be using real guns on their show


https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/business/story/2021-10-22/abc-bans-live-weapons-from-the-rookie-after-alec-baldwin-accident

[Wildcat]

I'd actually love to know how/why that happens.

I assume it's to test to make sure that the guns are firing properly. But... I don't know, can't they do that somewhere else and then just bring the empty guns to the set once ensured that they're empty?

Allegedly the woman responsible for overseeing the gun safety was a real screw-up in general. Only 25, seems more like she got her job because her Mommy worked in the business than anything. Probably not qualified or experienced enough to even be put in charge of such things.

I confess, part of me sincerely does want to make a joke about "Who even put a woman in charge of the guns, anyway? They're guns, not cupcakes." However, this isn't really a joking matter.Ya testing can be done somewhere else but you should not even need to test with real bullets.

I don’t know if 25 is too young. Seems like it was all just poorly handled. Lack of common sense.

The Rookie changing them to fake guns is good. I don’t watch it but I’m sure you cannot tell the difference.

[Leo656]

I don’t know if 25 is too young. Seems like it was all just poorly handled. Lack of common sense.

Seems kinda young to me, but I'm 39. 25-year old me was pretty needlessly overconfident about multiple things. I never had anything THAT bad happen, but I definitely had my share of "What could possibly go wrong?" moments. At that age, it has a tendency to happen. It's not until way later that you look back and realize that you knew dick at that age.

You can say it was JUST a lack of common sense... but as it happens, "lack of common sense" is one of the biggest side effects of not having turned 30 yet. At that age, you simply don't fully realize the consequences of your actions, and how they might affect others, even if you THINK you do.

In my current-year exposure, most 25-year olds I encounter are total f*cking morons, to be kind. I, personally, would not entrust the life-and-death safety protocols of my entire cast and crew to a 25-year old. I *probably* would have second thoughts about sending them on an unsupervised Starbucks run. I *definitely* would not be putting them in charge of the guns.

But that's me. I can only speak to my own experience. Perhaps this person was properly trained and earned her spot.

Within the context of the situation, though... I highly, HIGHLY doubt it. She seems pretty unqualified. And if the blame is ultimately gonna fall anywhere come lawsuit time, you can bet hers is one of the heads that will ultimately roll.
-------------

I read that the woman who got killed was married. I feel horrible for her husband. Like sick-horrible. I can't even imagine what that's like.

[Wildcat]

I agree when you’re in your 20s you don’t realize how immature you are. I’m 37 and look back on certain things. I did not get into any trouble or put anyone in danger but I know what you mean.

I have not read any reports. I’m assuming she was like a manager of a crew. Not actually handling the props. Not that that excuses her just I can see how it could get past you if your crew is not following your orders.

It seems like multiple people are to blame for not taking it seriously. Real bullets should not have even been around.

[Leo656]

Per the one article:
The person in charge of overseeing the gun props, known as the armorer, Hannah Gutierrez Reed, could not be reached for comment. The 24-year-old is the daughter of veteran armorer Thell Reed and had recently completed her first film as the head armorer for the movie "The Old Way," with Clint Howard and Nicolas Cage.

So while you might have something of a point, in theory, "overseeing the gun props" was literally her entire job description. Therefore, any "oopsies" ultimately have to rest in her lap.

Also, I misspoke; she was 24, not 25, and that's even worse.

Also also, this was only her second movie in that role. So we know for a fact she was inexperienced, at least in the practical sense.

Also also ALSO, you can put dollars down that Mommy got her into the business, and helped get her work on jobs like this in SPITE of her lack of practical experience. I'm sure Mommy taught her a thing or two over the years, but there's no substitute for life experience.

Not the right person for the job. I'm sayin' it. If I'm the studio, and I'm looking for someone to take 100% of the heat for this fiasco, that's your scapegoat, right there.

[Wildcat]

There’s this. Just did a quick google search out of curiosity.

https://www.tmz.com/2021/10/23/alec-baldwin-rust-gun-accident-armorer-head-handler/

It sounds bad but there was more than one armorer and I guess it’s still not confirmed if it was a real bullet. Just going by this. It was posted an hour ago.

Thell Reed is a gun expert that works in movies. I did not know who he was until right now.

[Andrew NDB]

If it was a real bullet... this is a whole different can of worms. It'd be like, if someone was filming a scene with Italian mobsters sinking someone off a boat in the middle of a deep lake somehow being given real lead weights that locked to sink someone to the bottom and kill them. This isn't "oh noes more scary guns!", this is gross negligence. Possibly even intent, given what we're learning about the pretty startling production and crew issues.

[Leo656]

I really hate social media.

Lots of people who clearly haven't read one article about the subject, screaming about how Baldwin is "a murderer" and "is gonna walk away because he's rich".

Go on Google for two minutes and don't just read one headline, you ignorant f*cking jackals. :roll:

I don't even especially care about Alec Baldwin - I liked him in Beetlejuice (that was Alec, right?), and that's it; past that, he's a non-entity in my eyes and I never even think about him otherwise - but that's not what happened, morons.

This isn't even the sort of incident where criminal charges would generally be filed. "Criminal negligence" on the part of certain staff, possibly. A civil suit and a large payout to the victim's family, 100% going to happen. And the chick who "oversaw" the guns on set probably isn't going to get a lot of work in the industry after this.

But Jesus Christ. "Alec Baldwin's a murderer and ought'a be in jail." :roll: F*cking sterilize these people, please. They can't read and they can barely write. Sterilize them, drown 'em, I really don't care... but we really ought'a make sure they don't f*cking breed.

[Andrew NDB]

Well. We can't say he isn't at this point until we know more about the gun situation. I think it'll turn out that he absolutely had no idea about what was going on with the gun being handed to him but we don't have all the facts yet.

That said, yes. This old tweet, while I don't think this is any reason to bang a pitchfork for him, now becomes somewhat interesting.

https://i.ibb.co/56HvSS6/Screenshot-20211023-043351-Gallery.jpg

[Leo656]

By its very definition, "murder" demands intent.

And I find it very hard to believe that Alec Baldwin had any intent whatsoever to kill that woman.

Back in school we spent quite a few days in Criminal Justice going over what specifically defines "murder" versus other incidents where people get killed as a result of someone else's actions.

Turns out, 99% of the time when your average person cries "Murder!", it's actually something else entirely. That's why there's a dozen other terms for situations where one person kills another. "Murder" is not a catch-all; it's a very specific term with very specific criteria. Which is why most people accused of "murder", aren't actually found guilty of "murder", but something else entirely. "Murder" is hard to prove because intent is hard to prove. And the very term is predicated upon intent. "Did you MEAN to kill this person?" That's the most important part.

Call it a personal peeve. But whenever I see people fling around terms like "murder" with complete disregard for its actual definition, it's one of those "The f*ck did I even bother going to school and learning for?" moments. Very, very annoying. Granted, my grade in Criminal Justice was a B+, but I challenge anyone to do better when they missed 80 days out of a 180-day school year. Also, I never planned on being a lawyer, I just needed an elective with a lot of credits.

Anyway, no, Alec Baldwn didn't mean to kill that woman, ergo, Alec Baldwin is not a murderer. He's not even likely to be charged with anything, by most reports (thus far). If anyone is, it's likely to be a criminal negligence charge against the girl whose job it was to oversee the prop guns... y'know, the ones that kept going off all week long before this incident. She didn't do her job, period. If there's fault, it's on her. Her entire job on the movie's set was to make sure this sort of thing didn't happen, and it did.

But even then, it's unlikely she'd do time, or realistically even be charged.

What's going to happen is, this is ultimately going to be written off as a tragic accident, and the studio is going to cut someone's family a very large check, and that's very likely all. The armorer woman may be found liable in the civil suit and be forced to pay damages as well.

But point of fact, nobody - based on what we know - "murdered" anyone. And it's very unlikely that anyone did.

Someone died, but that's not the same thing as murder. At all.
-----------------------

On the other tip, "Hooray for proof that nobody should ever have Twitter, especially drunk famous people like Alec Baldwin."

[IMJ]

I can't imagine how it isn't part of the S.A.G. protocols that when an actor is handed a gun for a role that he takes a moment to clear it visually with his Director standing next to him.

[Leo656]

If I'm an actor, and assuming I don't know dick about guns - easy in my case, since I don't - my first instinct is to say "That ain't my job, I don't even know what I'm looking at," and trust that the "experts" in charge of the props did theirs. My job is to point the thing and squeeze, and if the expert did their job then all's clear. If not, I shouldn't even be holding this f*cking thing. Nobody should be handing me a loaded gun. If I'm holding a loaded gun as an actor then several other people in the chain of command already screwed up big before it ever made it to my hands, that's all I can say.

Another wrestling anecdote: Bunch'a years ago, ring crew guy forgot to take the bracer bars off the bottom of a folding table so it would crack in half clean when two guys went through it for their big spot in the main event. Guys didn't know that, did the spot as planned. Table didn't break clean, guy got sliced by the metal bracer bar when it snapped. Not too bad, thankfully.

But see, it wasn't their job to know if the table was gimmicked right or not. Taking pins out of folding chairs before you crack a guy in the head, same thing. You don't check; you have to implicitly assume that the guy in charge of "props" did their job, because that is 100% of their job and 0% of yours. Otherwise, why are they even there?

[IMJ]

If I'm an actor, and assuming I don't know dick about guns - easy in my case, since I don't - my first instinct is to say "That ain't my job, I don't even know what I'm looking at," and trust that the "experts" in charge of the props did theirs. My job is to point the thing and squeeze, and if the expert did their job then all's clear. If not, I shouldn't even be holding this f*cking thing. Nobody should be handing me a loaded gun. If I'm holding a loaded gun as an actor then several other people in the chain of command already screwed up big before it ever made it to my hands, that's all I can say.

Another wrestling anecdote: Bunch'a years ago, ring crew guy forgot to take the bracer bars off the bottom of a folding table so it would crack in half clean when two guys went through it for their big spot in the main event. Guys didn't know that, did the spot as planned. Table didn't break clean, guy got sliced by the metal bracer bar when it snapped. Not too bad, thankfully.

But see, it wasn't their job to know if the table was gimmicked right or not. Taking pins out of folding chairs before you crack a guy in the head, same thing. You don't check; you have to implicitly assume that the guy in charge of "props" did their job, because that is 100% of their job and 0% of yours. Otherwise, why are they even there?

But see that's just it - these clearly aren't props. They are clearly using real firearms in simulated situations.

[Leo656]

Then they don't belong on a movie set where they can possibly end up in the hands of untrained civilians. That's how accidents happen. Boom.

[1987]

But Jesus Christ. "Alec Baldwin's a murderer and ought'a be in jail." :roll: F*cking sterilize these people, please. They can't read and they can barely write. Sterilize them, drown 'em, I really don't care... but we really ought'a make sure they don't f*cking breed.

well that’s a very far left radical extremist way of saying you disagree with them.

if it was another celebrity who wasn’t such a leftist extremist i could see your point. but alec baldwin spent the last 4 years of his career alienating half the country politically. you know if this happened to someone else he’d be one of the first in line calling for their extreme punsihment. look what he tweeted just 5 days ago:

https://mobile.twitter.com/AlecBaldwin/status/1450173885358374918

he was calling for “Jan 6 terrorists” to be put in the worst prisons, but ironically now Alec Baldwin has killed more democrats than Jan 6. and he was the PRODUCER of this film, not just some actor or crew member, so he is entirely responsible for this. but he’s a rich celebrity, a democrat at that, so yeah he will probably walk, and come out even harder in support of gun control since he has experienced the dangers of guns first hand.

By the way, NIH admitted Dr Fauci lied under oath about gain of function research in China. Enjoy your distraction.

[IndigoErth]

So now Baldwin did it on purpose? :tconfuse:

That would have to be a rather elaborate plan between multiple people if there was any intent whatsoever. I mean, how would you set up that scene to hurt the cinematographer and director, when THEY would be calling the shots (awful pun not intended) and putting themselves in that line of fire. Come on...

I feel for that stupid girl who was in charge of the safety of the arms on set, but yeah, no, someone that age... hell no, I don't care who your daddy is or what job you were able to just get handed because of it, someone that young and relatively new to it should not be the one fully in charge yet. Nothing against people young/mid 20s, but far too many are still just too lax on things they should not be.


Have they released yet what actually hit them? Did it go through the cinematographer and hit the director or was it some other kind of projectile that may have split and just hit both?

[joe-eyeball]

There is under NO circumstances any reason LIVE AMMO should even be on the set! Also, it would be almost impossible for a blank to kill someone when fired from a properly functioning firearm. The only reasonable ways a death could occur is if there were a barrel obstruction and the powder charge from the blank forced the obstruction out (ie, Brandon Lee death) or if an overpowered blank were used and the muzzle of the gun were pressed up against a persons body and even that in most cases likely wouldn’t result in death, or possible an overpowered blank resulted in a catastrophic failure of the firearm and “shrapnel” struck someone. If this shooting occurred because of live ammo being in the gun then someone did it on purpose and this was no accident at all!

[The Deadman]

Crew member yelled 'cold gun' as he handed Alec Baldwin prop weapon, court document shows
https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/23/entertainment/alec-baldwin-rust-shooting-saturday/index.html

And now we're getting this

‘Rust’ crew describes on-set gun safety issues and misfires days before fatal shooting
https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/business/story/2021-10-22/alec-baldwin-rust-camera-crew-walked-off-set

Apparently this happened before the accident. This is on the prop department 100%.

[1987]

Very tragic what happened to the cinematographer.

I totally understand why people are condemning Alec Baldwin and saying he is fully responsible. Not only was he the producer of the film, Alec Baldwin has been politicizing everything for the last 4 years so this is just poetic justice on him with his hate and bigotry now being turned upon him by the canceled culture he helped create. Just very tragic that it cost that woman her life.

Some liberals already trying to blame this on Trump, conspiracy theory saying a Trump supporter loaded the prop gun with real bullets to get revenge on Alec Baldwin for years of SNL parodies

https://mobile.twitter.com/Villavelius/status/1451499563903242242

Liberals never cease to amaze

Everything Alec Baldwin has said about Trump and his supporters is not going to age well.

[IndigoErth]

What does a "misfire" even mean?

[Sumac]

I don't want to turn it into politics debate, but its just amazing how fast the very same people who say that "Right-wingers see Left conspiracies everywhere" turn into conspiracy nutjobs themselves.

[joe-eyeball]

What does a "misfire" even mean?

An actual misfire is only when a round that is chambered in a functioning gun and the trigger is pulled resulting in the action functioning allowing the firing pin to move forward and strike the primer and the round does not discharge. A misfire is typically ammo related and sometimes due to a “light” strike on the ammo casings primer. Sometimes the primer of the cartridge is a hard primer and needs another strike to set it off and sometimes the ammo is just a plain dud.

I must say that the information in some articles talking about accidental discharge of the guns is a bit ignorant. I mean this a western and so the prop guns would be revolvers and more specifically single action only revolvers. That means the only way to fire them would be if someone deliberately pulls the hammer all the way back to c0ck it and then pulls what would then be a light trigger pull to fire it. You also could potentially fire the gun if you have a round in the chamber with the hammer down on a live round and something struck the hammer hard to ignite the primer. If the guns being used were 100% accurate to the time period it would be possible to fire a round by smacking a down hammer on a live round, but if they used modern replicas of the guns then those particular guns may have a transfer bar mechanism inside them that would make that almost impossible to occur.

[IMJ]

Then they don't belong on a movie set where they can possibly end up in the hands of untrained civilians. That's how accidents happen. Boom.

Exxaacccctttlllyyy........

[joe-eyeball]

Then they don't belong on a movie set where they can possibly end up in the hands of untrained civilians. That's how accidents happen. Boom.

I don’t necessarily agree with all if this! They can be on sets when all safety measures are followed to the letter then it is almost impossible for a tragedy to occur. I mean an enormous deal is going to be made about this because of the star involved and a gun was used to kill. But let’s be real, stunt accidents (mostly falls) happen many times a year where film performers are killed and nobody makes a big stink! Bottom line is someone deliberately put live ammo in a gun and the worst possible outcome occurred because multiple important rules to firearms safety were broken!

[Leo656]

I can't stand most of Alec Baldwin's political opinions but I'm not inclined to try and politicize this situation. That's trashy. I'm aware he's said lots of dumb sh*t. Lots of people say dumb sh*t. He's still a person, and so is the girl who's dead.

Saying he somehow "earned" or "deserved" this because he's an outspoken Liberal is... well, garbage. Sorry. That's just plain one of the dumbest things I've ever heard in my life.

And it's pretty weird to compare on-set fall accidents to on-set gun accidents. Point of fact, you generally get a little more room for error with the former than the latter. People accidentally get stabbed on movie sets, too - infamously, my boy Kevin Nash (aka SUPER SHREDDER!) got stabbed in the chest with a real knife while filming "The Punisher" when someone accidentally forgot to swap it for the prop knife... and like a boss, he didn't even sell it until they yelled "Cut", because Kevin is a god amongst ants. BUT, again, more room for error with a knife mishap. If it had been another gun mishap, he'd be dead. So it's apples and oranges. Yes, accidents happen. The thing about gun accidents on a movie or TV set is, they're 100% preventable. Just don't have real guns there. Now your entire problem goes away in one fell swoop.

Y'know how rare it is to actually have a problem with a 100% effective safety solution? And now we have a case where we have one, and some people just plain don't think it's worth it because "sometimes other bad stuff happens too." That's f*cking weird, man.

I have no problem with guns. They admittedly make me nervous, I held one exactly once and didn't especially care for it, and it wasn't even loaded. It doesn't help that I'm kind of a sociopath, and multiple systems are in place in order to keep people like me, specifically, from ever getting my hands on one. And honestly that's probably a good thing. But I don't have any problem with them. I've often advocated loudly for people's basic right to own, carry and operate one, so long as they're properly trained to do so. I know multiple people who you'd call "responsible gun owners", and there's nothing they disdain more than IRRESPONSIBLE gun owners/users, on account of those people ruin things for everyone else with their carelessness. When people say things like, "We need to get rid of all the guns!", I always, always say "Nah, we really don't."

BUT. They have no reasonable place around people who are just playing make-believe.

Apparently, more and more people in Hollywood agree with me on that.
https://www.insider.com/the-boys-showrunner-firearm-blanks-halyna-hutchins-alec-baldwin-2021-10

Now, I think I get where some folks of the more conservative persuasion are coming from. They're nervous all of a sudden because they think the Left is going to use this as one more opportunity to rally and say "We're comin' for yer guns!" and now that the Democrats have a majority they're actually in a position to try it. I hear you. That's probably what they will try and do, and it's unfortunate. It's unfortunate that a situation that really shouldn't be political, is immediately becoming political for multiple reasons.

But it's not a political issue, or rather it shouldn't be. It's a "Someone shouldn't have been a f*cking dumbass" issue. Even if you're of the opinion that real guns belong on a movie or TV set, multiple basic gun safety protocols were ignored and then this sh*t happened. And I don't think any sane person - Right or Left - would honestly try and argue that adherence to basic f*cking gun safety protocols is somehow a BAD thing.

But since people apparently CAN'T be bothered to adhere to basic f*cking safety protocols on a movie set, and something like this happening even ONE time is way too many times, then the alternative solution immediately presents itself: Just Use F*cking Fake F*cking Guns, For F*ck's F*cking Sake.

And if someone thinks this whole thing isn't gonna screw with Baldwin's head, or that he's not gonna be bothered by this situation for the rest of his life, you're nuts. He might be a Loony Leftie, but I'm pretty sure he also still has a human soul and a conscience. Even though it's NOT directly his fault, he has to live the rest of his life knowing that accidentally or otherwise, someone's wife and mother is no longer on this Earth because of something he did. That's a heavy cross to bear.

I've never killed anyone, accidentally or otherwise. But full disclosure, a few times I came really, really close. It's not a fun thing to think about or remember, and my only real "comfort" when I think about it is, "At least you didn't." But if I had? Jesus. I don't even wanna think about it. That kind of thing can, has, and does, screw a person up for life.

I don't know man. I'm a little bit shocked by the complete lack of compassion some people are showing in light of this situation. I'm not checking who they're registered to vote for, I'm looking at the people in this situation like human beings, nothing more. And this sh*t is f*cked up. It's f*cked up enough without bringing that sh*t into it.


Did it go through the cinematographer and hit the director...?

Yes, apparently. One of the articles I linked to earlier goes into it in some detail but I can't remember which one of the top of my head. But yeah, it hit her, passed through, hit the other person.

Like something you'd see in a movie. Boy, if that's not some dark irony right there I don't know what is.

[Andrew NDB]

I 100% agree with Leo on that. However, you just know if this happened to, say, James Woods on a set... you'd have 1,000s of people on the left saying just that.

[Leo656]

Yeah, people are sh*tty and getting more sh*tty all the time.

I look back to when I was young, and I just have this really strong feeling that if this had happened Then... MOST people would just be looking at it like "Jesus, what a f*cking tragedy. Those poor people." And that's all.

We're so divided now that everything has to be this insidious political agenda... thing. It's sick.

[ProphetofGanja]

So apparently "prop" literally just means "property of the theatre" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theatrical_property), and that's it. Not like fake or whatever people have taken it to mean.

[IMJ]

So apparently "prop" literally just means "property of the theatre" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theatrical_property), and that's it. Not like fake or whatever people have taken it to mean.

-meh-

Nevermind.

[Andrew NDB]

So apparently "prop" literally just means "property of the theatre" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theatrical_property), and that's it. Not like fake or whatever people have taken it to mean.

I don't think the theatre can legally own actual firearms. Pretty sure you can't go into the gun store and say, "No no, it's not for me and you don't need to run my FBI information. It's in the name of the theatre."

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Legally, all props are owned by whomever owns the production company, or the prop supply company that is being used to provide them. So they would the the responsibility of that party. Ie, is it's an independent prop provider, the guns would belong to the owner of that company, if it's in-house of the production company, they would own and be responsible for them.

[Mayhem]

Yeah, it's the entimology of the word. In the same way that "fan" derived from "fanatic". Actor Michael Sheard (RIP) never liked the term "fan" because of that, and always used different terms to describe people who liked his work.

[mrmaczaps]

Stupid. And now Baldwin's gonna have this on his conscience for the rest of his life. It's not his fault, but still. He technically killed the person. That's heavy sh*t to live with.



It kinda is his fault though... He is ultimately responsible for checking the firearm. If someone hands me a firearm, first thing I do is make sure its clear/empty & i still don't point it at anything or anyone I don't want to put holes into... He SHOULD have checked it before using it for the scene and he should have definitely made sure not to point it where people were standing or directly at anyone. Add in all the comment the deceased and other people on the film made weeks prior about the u safe working conditions & other "prop" gun problems. He should be charged and so should anyone else that handled the firearm on set prior to its use for that scene. Too bad he had to learn the hard way... except I'm sure its legit just another excuse/sacrifice by the lunatic left to try to ban firearms... (already seeing leftists post about it...)

[mrmaczaps]

So apparently "prop" literally just means "property of the theatre" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theatrical_property), and that's it. Not like fake or whatever people have taken it to mean.

Prop guns are prop in name only. They're still legit firearms. Everything still works like any other firearm unless its been disabled by whoever bought it. The ammo is usually "blanks" meaning no projectile, however they're still dangerous/deadly. Some movies use real ammo, or full loads because blanks tend to jam. Not enough powder can make the firearm not cycle fully and thus not eject the casing.

Baldwin should have made sure the firearm was properly loaded or unloaded & not pointed the firearm at anyone. No one that didn't need to be on set should have been around & safety equipment should have been in place. They make bulletproof walls & barricades that can be used to hide behind and/or protect cameras, equipment & you know, people...

[Andrew NDB]

There's been a comparison made back to Dick Cheney. Years ago he went off hunting and accidentally shot his friend and suddenly, because Dick Cheney was on the right, there was tons of comedy sketches on SNL and jokes all over the talk shows and pop culture. I remember it. You couldn't avoid that kind of stuff for a while. Now, when Alec Baldwin does it? Dead silence and heartfelt sympathies along with a push for greater gun control (in Hollywood).

[joe-eyeball]

There's been a comparison made back to Dick Cheney. Years ago he went off hunting and accidentally shot his friend and suddenly, because Dick Cheney was on the right, there was tons of comedy sketches on SNL and jokes all over the talk shows and pop culture. I remember it. You couldn't avoid that kind of stuff for a while. Now, when Alec Baldwin does it? Dead silence and heartfelt sympathies along with a push for greater gun control (in Hollywood).

I hear ya but the big difference here is Cheney’s friend even though seriously injured didn’t die. And also the left is horribly hypocritical:D

[Jester]

The only way Baldwin is "at fault" is because he's also a producer and if corners are being cut, he's one of the people who is making those decisions. He's not a gun expert and there are checks that go into how guns are handled on set. His role is to take the gun and use it as directed by those who do. Now if those who do were less experienced in attempt to save money, then he is responsible as a producer.

[IndigoErth]

It kinda is his fault though... He is ultimately responsible for checking the firearm. If someone hands me a firearm, first thing I do is make sure its clear/empty & i still don't point it at anything or anyone I don't want to put holes into... He SHOULD have checked it before using it for the scene and he should have definitely made sure not to point it where people were standing or directly at anyone.
It's a film set, he's just an actor, there are literally people there whose job it is perform those duties, to ensure the safety, know what is or isn't in it, work with actors on performing with the "prop," and tell him how to stand, where to aim, etc...

The person who handed it to him should have already gone through all those checks.



That said, I heard in passing that he may have been practicing drawing it at the time this happened? Why the heck was anything even in it if he was just rehearsing the movements. :tsad:

[Iroh]

This reminds me of the Brandon Lee incident all over again. Sad stuff.:(

[sdp]

I hope this doesn't delay the movie.

[Jester]

I hope this doesn't delay the movie.
I doubt this film will ever be released.

[TigerClaw]

I doubt this film will ever be released.
It will get delayed more then anything, In the past there been horrific accidents that happen during filming, And those films still got released.

[Jester]

It will get delayed more then anything, In the past there been horrific accidents that happen during filming, And those films still got released.
You might be right...Twilight Zone was released after all.

[TigerClaw]

You might be right...Twilight Zone was released after all.
As well as The Crow.

This film will get released, and they will put in a this film is dedicated to credit.

[Leo656]

Depends how much was already shot. Baldwin allegedly is stepping back from all projects for a while to get his head right. So even if they tried to get back to work tomorrow, he isn't available.

There's a decent chance the whole thing just gets scrapped due to a mix of bad publicity, insurance rates skyrocketing, and physically not being able to finish it.

I'll be surprised if it gets finished and released. This thing's a complete wash.

[Papenbrook]

Out of respect for the deceased, I hope that they don't release it.

[Leo656]

They probably won't release it, but that would be the single least-important reason not to, by their standards.

Most likely, after this it will just cost too much to insure and they may not even have their big-name actor. Thus, it may not even be physically possible to finish it. Otherwise, the entire point would be (and has been, in the past), "Well, it's a tragedy, but we need to make our money back." That's literally all anyone in Hollywood cares about.

[Papenbrook]

I wonder how this incident will influence the IATSE strike.

Surely, some members must regret negotiating/ratifying so early ...

[oldmanwinters]

You might be right...Twilight Zone was released after all.

Man, I can't imagine how that day on the set must have been after the helicopter accident. What a tragedy.

[IMJ]

They released The Crow and the star himself was shot, so yeah.

[Andrew NDB]

Out of respect for the deceased, I hope that they don't release it.

I kind of hate how everyone -- mostly SJWs -- presume to know the wishes of the dead person in these cases where the person dies in the middle of making a movie. If I was the DP of a fairly big movie and I died in the middle of it, making the damn thing... you bet your f***ing ass I'd want it to come out and people to see it! This thing cost me my life... now you think I want the movie buried with me in the casket? Shesus, why would you think that? It would have to be a tiny, TINY percentage of people that would actually want that.

[IMJ]

I kind of hate how everyone -- mostly SJWs -- presume to know the wishes of the dead person in these cases where the person dies in the middle of making a movie. If I was the DP of a fairly big movie and I died in the middle of it, making the damn thing... you bet your f***ing ass I'd want it to come out and people to see it! This thing cost me my life... now you think I want the movie buried with me in the casket? Shesus, why would you think that? It would have to be a tiny, TINY percentage of people that would actually want that.

Right?
"I died for this movie"
SJW phony emotional projection - "No one must see this film now".

[joe-eyeball]

I kind of hate how everyone -- mostly SJWs -- presume to know the wishes of the dead person in these cases where the person dies in the middle of making a movie. If I was the DP of a fairly big movie and I died in the middle of it, making the damn thing... you bet your f***ing ass I'd want it to come out and people to see it! This thing cost me my life... now you think I want the movie buried with me in the casket? Shesus, why would you think that? It would have to be a tiny, TINY percentage of people that would actually want that.

Exactly! I mean as far a career goes that would be your legacy. If it were me I’d want it released, but I agree with some that it probably will never be finished let alone be released.

[Leo656]

Going by the plot synopsis, it's a movie nobody would've seen anyway. A western about a kid who accidentally kills someone? Who makes a western in 2021? Who watches a movie where a bunch of people are trying to hang a kid? Even if it came out, it would've been invisible. It's got no audience.

Its only value NOW would be among super-creepy people. "Come see the movie where Alec Baldwin killed someone!" Obviously there are SOME people who'd watch it for that exact reason, but outside of that kinda morbid stuff, it has no value.

Best-case scenario would be to cancel it. BUT, it also wouldn't shock me to see Hollywood somehow finish it, and then use the tragedy as a marketing tool. "Come see the 'controversial' western drama... a film so important, people gave their lives for its completion!" I can see that happening. I don't WANT to, but I can.

[Andrew NDB]

BUT, it also wouldn't shock me to see Hollywood somehow finish it, and then use the tragedy as a marketing tool.

I doubt they would. But media would provide the marketing as soon as they release it for them, even if it's years from now. "Remember that time Baldwin killed his DP? That movie is out!" and thousands of people share it, etc.. The truth is yes, many people that never would've checked this out will now do so.

I imagine things stay shut down for 2 or 3 months. Then Baldwin comes back and they wrap it and it gets a quiet release on Amazon Prime or Netflix or something. Or Baldwin doesn't come back and they replace him with another actor, and either reshoot or recomposite the new actor into the old footage. They didn't even get quite halfway done with the shoot so it's anybody's guess.

[Sumac]

A western about a kid who accidentally kills someone?
Regardless of this particular movie, this attitude would so dumb for a writer.

[ZariusTwo]

Dwayne Johnson won't be using real guns on his productions

https://variety.com/2021/film/news/dwayne-johnson-gun-safety-movies-halyna-hutchins-death-rust-1235104627/

[Coola Yagami]

That logic is stupid. I know it's not 100% the same thing, but imagine them not releasing The Dark Knight over Heath's suicide. Just release the damn thing and get it over with.

[Leo656]

Dude they barely even started filming it. They probably didn't even get anywhere near close to "done" and now there's gonna be a ton of litigation around a bunch of people involved for the foreseeable future.

"Dark Knight" was already completely filmed when Heath Ledger died. Totally different situation. We're not talking about not being able to release it because of "controversy", they physically didn't get to shoot the movie. And now they probably won't be able to finish it regardless.

[Andrew NDB]

Dwayne Johnson won't be using real guns on his productions

https://variety.com/2021/film/news/dwayne-johnson-gun-safety-movies-halyna-hutchins-death-rust-1235104627/

Oh, what a big hero. What a joke.

Dude they barely even started filming it. They probably didn't even get anywhere near close to "done" and now there's gonna be a ton of litigation around a bunch of people involved for the foreseeable future.

"Dark Knight" was already completely filmed when Heath Ledger died. Totally different situation. We're not talking about not being able to release it because of "controversy", they physically didn't get to shoot the movie. And now they probably won't be able to finish it regardless.

Yeah, they didn't even get to the halfway point. Maybe approaching the one third mark, if that.

[Leo656]

Oh, what a big hero. What a joke.
.

Yeah, like how dare common sense win out over a more realistic recoil effect that 99% of the audience doesn't even notice or care about. What a dick move. :lol:

I hate Flex, but this was a wise decision. I mean if he's gonna run for President in 2024 these are the kinds of stances he needs to take. He's already got Allyssa Milano's vote, after all.

[IMJ]

Dude they barely even started filming it. They probably didn't even get anywhere near close to "done" and now there's gonna be a ton of litigation around a bunch of people involved for the foreseeable future.

"Dark Knight" was already completely filmed when Heath Ledger died. Totally different situation. We're not talking about not being able to release it because of "controversy", they physically didn't get to shoot the movie. And now they probably won't be able to finish it regardless.

Not only that but this movie had direct to home release written all over it anyway. I mean... did anyone care about this movie in the first place?

Oh, what a big hero. What a joke.

In a couple of years when the zeitgeist of this event fades he will go back to making movies to meet the criticism of things being "fake" and there will be some special features where he goes on about how everything in "Future Movie XYZ" is "all real - all the stunts, all the car crashes, all the firearms" and use it as a marketing draw for "Future Movie XYZ". Everything these people do is a response to whatever the sheep are yammering about in that particular moment.

[Leo656]

I think the last Western anyone cared about at all was honestly "Tombstone". And if Val Kilmer at just about the peak of his fame wasn't in it, even that's debatable how big a mark it would've left.

There was a little scuttlebutt around "The Assassination of Jesse James by the Coward Robert Ford" some years, back, but even then not really.

I like a good Western myself - Young Guns is very likely my favorite movie of all time - but I'm fully aware that nobody but me gives a sh*t. Genre's totally dead, those movies don't make any money. No matter what did or didn't happen this was a project nobody asked for or wanted in the first place.

[Andrew NDB]

Not only that but this movie had direct to home release written all over it anyway. I mean... did anyone care about this movie in the first place?

Exactly. So many articles and people writing these scathing articles, talking about "Rust" in the same breath as if it was to be the next megabudget Michael Bay Hollywood movie or something. This was a tiny production with most likely a shoestring of a shoestring budget, perhaps like a hair above a student film "production" and the biggest cost likely being Alec Baldwin himself.

[frank_one]

Dude they barely even started filming it. They probably didn't even get anywhere near close to "done" and now there's gonna be a ton of litigation around a bunch of people involved for the foreseeable future.AND they need to find a new cinematographer. Also, the director is injured, I'm not sure he is ready to go back to finish the movie.

[Leo656]

In a couple of years when the zeitgeist of this event fades he will go back to making movies to meet the criticism of things being "fake" and there will be some special features where he goes on about how everything in "Future Movie XYZ" is "all real - all the stunts, all the car crashes, all the firearms" and use it as a marketing draw for "Future Movie XYZ". Everything these people do is a response to whatever the sheep are yammering about in that particular moment.

I must be honest, though, I kinda question your thesis.

On every single Comments section (where that's still allowed) of any article that's reported on this, the OVERWHELMING majority of people are like, "Wait... WHY do they still use real guns in movies now? That's the single dumbest thing I've ever heard, I thought they switched to fake guns the second CGI was a thing."

Literally nobody except a grand total of five people cares if they use real guns, and those are the only people who want them to. MOST people, by far, think that using a real gun on a movie set is total "You Are A Retard" stuff.

The people have collectively spoken, it's pointless and needlessly dangerous and they say they'd rather this practice not continue. That they're fine with fake guns being used so long as this never happens again. So why fight it, if that's what the audience says they want? The people saying "Nah, it's worth someone getting shot and killed if it means the visual is more realistic for the audience" are being disingenuous, because "The Audience" is officially saying they don't care if it's "realistic"-looking or not, they'd simply prefer nobody ever again get killed by a prop gun.

It's like 99-to-1, with 99% of people saying "Holy sh*t, they still use real guns? That's retarded," vs less than 1% of people saying, "Welllllll, it makes sense because......." Just tap out, it's done with. There is no GOOD reason for real guns on a movie set, end of story.

People can give "reasons", but they are not GOOD reasons. They say it's for the audience's benefit and yet the audience says they don't want it. That means, it's just masturbation. "We want movies to use real guns because We Want Them To," not because it makes any goddamns sense. It doesn't. And nobody wants them to anymore. Oh well.

Sometimes, once in a great while, "progress" actually Is That.

[frank_one]

Exactly. So many articles and people writing these scathing articles, talking about "Rust" in the same breath as if it was to be the next megabudget Michael Bay Hollywood movie or something. This was a tiny production with most likely a shoestring of a shoestring budget, perhaps like a hair above a student film "production" and the biggest cost likely being Alec Baldwin himself.From wikipedia:
Budget $6–7 millionBaldwin is among the producers so he is probably the one putting those millions on the table.

[Jester]

Heck, can't we come up with a fake weapon that has no bullets, blank or otherwise, BUT has like a electric rumble to give feedback similar to recoil? I'm sure there have to be ways work around live weapons.

[Andrew NDB]

Heck, can't we come up with a fake weapon that has no bullets, blank or otherwise, BUT has like a electric rumble to give feedback similar to recoil? I'm sure there have to be ways work around live weapons.

Because of 2 very easily preventable deaths in 100 years of real guns being used in Hollywood productions? This is like a big problem we suddenly need to solve, because of an Alec Baldwin indie movie? Meh. This is stupid. We might as well discuss banning real helicopters from movies because CGI and because the Twilight Zone movie accident.

[Leo656]

It's an easily-solvable problem that shouldn't even exist. Two or 200, those people died for no reason. It's not about a numbers' game, it's about whether or not something could've been avoided at all, and making sure it doesn't happen again.

99% of problems aren't solvable. When presented with a problem that actually has a very easy solution, one has a responsibility to do so.

"Real Guns Look Cooler" is like the most brick-stupid reason to cling to something I've ever heard, can't lie. Nobody watching the movies even gives a sh*t. So here's a question: Why Should You?

Like "If I'm doing a sex scene I'm actually gonna d*ck this chick, just for the sake of 'keeping it real'." :lol: News Flash, that isn't how movies work, nor should it be. C'mon. This is silly, now.

[Jester]

There were more issues involved with The Twilight Zone shoot than just the helicopter....but that's neither here nor there. Also helicopters aren't designed as killing machines.

Sure, movies have done it one way for 100 years, and there have been 2 on-set accidents involving prop guns (as far as we know, there are probably more than the 2, they are just the most high profile), but if we can come up with a 100% safe alternative that gives the same result, why is that a problem?

[Leo656]

if we can come up with a 100% safe alternative that gives the same result, why is that a problem?

Bingo.

I made the analogy before, but back in the day, wrestlers used to just legit clobber each other with chairshots to the head. Literally just home-run swing at a guy with a metal folding chair. "Because it looks and sounds SO GOOD!" Except guys got brain damage.

Then one day, someone figures out, "Hey y'know... we can take one or two of the pins out of these things... and then you still get the noise AND the seat bands all the way backwards on impact, and it looks even more sick but it's actually safer that way!" So overnight, that was the new thing, just take the damn pins out. Or, y'know, just don't hit guys in the head at all, which is the NEW "new normal". But if you are gonna do it, take the pins out of the chair.

Avoidable Problems with Simple Solutions. Why keeping people safe and alive is a priority over anything else is some kind of "problem" or "inconvenience", I have no idea. Everything else should be way, way in the background behind... y'know... keeping people from Not Dying.

I mean they had Kirk Alyn actually dodge a real-life speeding train in the Superman movie serial, too. That wasn't a "stunt", they just waited until a train was coming and put a girl on the tracks and had him "rescue" her from a real-life oncoming train. But that wasn't for Style Points, it was because they didn't have any f*cking options. Once they had a way to fake it, they did. That's called "progress".

[Jester]

I know it's only a 3rd, but:


Actor dies on the set of the TV show 'Cover Up' in 1984
Another on-set death involving a mishap with prop guns firing blanks came in 1984 when actor Jon-Erik Hexum, 26, died while filming the CBS television series "Cover Up."

Hexum played around with a .44 Magnum prop gun filled with blanks during delays between scenes. Fragments of the blank went into his skull when he put the gun up to his head and fired. He was rushed into surgery and went into a coma before he was determined brain-dead six days later, according to Entertainment Weekly.

[Leo656]

I personally don't see much of a reason why it matters if it was three or 300 people.

If you can fix a problem and make sure it NEVER happens again, and you DON'T do that, then I'm sorry, you're kind of an asshole. Especially when it's a situation where people get killed for no reason.

It's not like they signed up to go dodge bullets in Afghanistan, these people all thought they were going to go have a fun day of playing make-believe. And then they never came home, because of Some Dipsh*t. I'm sorry, that's just about the most needless reason for anyone anywhere to die that I can even think of.

And if you can enact change to prevent it, and you don't, then I'm sorry, you're a dick.

[Andrew NDB]

I know it's only a 3rd, but:

That's not a Hollywood movie. So no, not a third. And before you Google it, no, "Man in indie movie in Sri Lanka short film kills another man with gun supposedly loaded with blanks" wouldn't count either.

Avoidable Problems with Simple Solutions.

Yeah, and I've got it: the armorer (as in, doing their ONE job). Oh wait, we've known that for decades. I guess we didn't really need a new solution to begin with?*

*: This one's for you, IMJ.

[Leo656]

Except she wasn't doing her One Job at all. And she wasn't on the last movie she worked on, either.

I'd have to find the article, but supposedly on the movie she just made with Nic Cage she was a terror, too. Casually sticking loaded guns under her armpit to have conversations with crew members and stuff, oblivious of the people standing behind her (who now had a loaded gun pointed at them). And Cage screamed at her and stormed off-set because she fired off a round without warning anyone, as you're supposed to announce it before firing a gun on-set.

The armorer was a f*cking dipsh*t who only got a job because her Daddy was well-respected in the industry. SHE herself is an idiot. She's done one-and-a-half movies and there's already a laundry list of complaints about her behavior and lack of protocol. And someone already died. It took less than 9 months of her being in the business for someone to get killed while she was "doing her One Job."

Sounds to me like the kid was a f*cking moron and all of this could've been avoided if a more competent person had been put in her position.

But that's me.

So obviously, "Just have someone watch out for the Real Guns on the Fake Movie Set" isn't a good enough solution. Didn't work. Y'know what has a 100% success ratio? NOT having f*cking real guns on a goddamn movie set to begin with.

Again, if audiences say they don't want it, Why Do You? It really sounds more like you just think it's super cool to watch them go "Pow" more than anything, not gonna lie.

[frank_one]

Using real guns on a set is as dumb as using real cocaine in a movie about a cocaine addict.

[Leo656]

Using real guns on a set is as dumb as using real cocaine in a movie about a cocaine addict.

Your comment reminds me of how back in 1996, WWF did an angle where they had Jerry Lawler pour whiskey down Jake "The Snake" Roberts's throat after he'd just gotten out of rehab a couple of months before and was in the middle of his sobriety. Jake didn't know they were gonna do that, and he was furious about it. Like "You know where I'm at and you're pouring f*cking whiskey in my face on live TV? The hell is wrong with you assholes?"

He's like "You could've just put iced tea in the f*cking bottle and not whiskey, who gives a sh*t?" And no joke, the guys who booked the segment were like, "Well I mean, the smell! It had to smell like real whiskey so the people in the front row wouldn't think it was fake!" :roll: Jake's like "I'm pretty sure the three people who might've been able to tell would've been perfectly fine with it if you just used iced tea instead. News Flash, everybody KNOWS it isn't real, god damn it!"

Just the dumbest sh*t ever, and in a roundabout way that's still what we're debating here. "Everyone knows it's fake, so who gives a sh*t?"

[IMJ]

I must be honest, though, I kinda question your thesis.

On every single Comments section (where that's still allowed) of any article that's reported on this, the OVERWHELMING majority of people are like, "Wait... WHY do they still use real guns in movies now? That's the single dumbest thing I've ever heard, I thought they switched to fake guns the second CGI was a thing."

Literally nobody except a grand total of five people cares if they use real guns, and those are the only people who want them to. MOST people, by far, think that using a real gun on a movie set is total "You Are A Retard" stuff.

The people have collectively spoken, it's pointless and needlessly dangerous and they say they'd rather this practice not continue. That they're fine with fake guns being used so long as this never happens again. So why fight it, if that's what the audience says they want? The people saying "Nah, it's worth someone getting shot and killed if it means the visual is more realistic for the audience" are being disingenuous, because "The Audience" is officially saying they don't care if it's "realistic"-looking or not, they'd simply prefer nobody ever again get killed by a prop gun.

It's like 99-to-1, with 99% of people saying "Holy sh*t, they still use real guns? That's retarded," vs less than 1% of people saying, "Welllllll, it makes sense because......." Just tap out, it's done with. There is no GOOD reason for real guns on a movie set, end of story.

People can give "reasons", but they are not GOOD reasons. They say it's for the audience's benefit and yet the audience says they don't want it. That means, it's just masturbation. "We want movies to use real guns because We Want Them To," not because it makes any goddamns sense. It doesn't. And nobody wants them to anymore. Oh well.

Sometimes, once in a great while, "progress" actually Is That.

I mean... I agree with most of that. Earlier in the thread I think I was even saying that there is no need to use real weapons. And so with my post there I wasn't arguing that they should keep things "real", but rather I was pointing out the whimsical nature of responses to stuff like this and an example of how I could see it changing when convenient for someone like the Rock.

Using real guns on a set is as dumb as using real cocaine in a movie about a cocaine addict.

Exactly.

[Papenbrook]

ABC's 'The Rookie', effective immediately, won't be using real guns on their show


https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/business/story/2021-10-22/abc-bans-live-weapons-from-the-rookie-after-alec-baldwin-accident


Dwayne Johnson won't be using real guns on his productions

https://variety.com/2021/film/news/dwayne-johnson-gun-safety-movies-halyna-hutchins-death-rust-1235104627/


Between these and what's happening with The Boys (https://people.com/tv/the-boys-the-rookie-ban-live-guns-rust-shooting-death/), I'm glad that producers are taking the necessary steps to ensure that productions maintain safety.

[mrmaczaps]

This whole thing is asinine. Baldwin is 100% responsible for this completely avoidable tragedy. He was handed a firearm and neglected to check it. Fvck everything else going on here. Case closed. Any time someone hands me a gun, I make sure its NOT loaded. If I hand someone a firearm, I've checked to make sure its not loaded. And I never point it at anyone & pull the trigger.

[Leo656]

No, he's not. At best he's "partially responsible". And even that is a stretch.

There were people on set who were PAID to make sure the gun wasn't loaded. THEY did not do their jobs. End of story.

I'll find the articles later about what a colossal idiot the girl with the job of "head armorer" was. You may be fascinated to read what a complete moron she is and how completely irresponsible she's been from the day she started working in the industry. Someone getting killed on one of her sets was only a matter of time, and this happened to be The Time.

I get it, you hate Alec Baldwin because he's a Democrat. I hate his politics, too, but his job is to point the gun and pull the trigger when someone says "ACTION!". That's it. The previous 87 steps regarding whether or not it was loaded were all LITERALLY someone else's responsibility. A "job" is more than just a goddamn title. The people whose JOB it was - their ONE job, in fact - did not do their One Job. There's simply no getting around that. If all blame rests on Alec Baldwin, WHY are those people even paid to be there? Come on. Objective Reasoning.

Turns out all of them - including Baldwin, as a producer - are getting sued. Well, that's fine. That's what should happen. He is "responsible" in that he is a producer and somehow or other a complete moron got hired to oversee the firearms. He's NOT responsible for her not doing her job, that's 100% on her.

Seriously, I'll find the articles I read and link them later. You won't BELIEVE what a f*cking idiot this girl is. If you end up reading all of that and still think that Baldwin is more at fault than she is... then I'm sorry, you're completely biased and beyond help.

And also... Real Guns don't belong anywhere on a movie set to begin with. If nothing else comes out of this, at least that's going to be done away with once and for all, which is long overdue. "But actors won't be able to amuse themselves between takes by shooting at cans anymore!" :roll: Cry me a f*cking river. That redneck sh*t is SO damn important, I'm sure.

[Andrew NDB]

And also... Real Bullets don't belong anywhere on a movie set to begin with.

Fixed it for you. And yes, I agree 100%.

[Leo656]

A real bullet didn't kill Brandon Lee. "Oops".

There's only one reason anyone wants real guns (or bullets) on a movie set. Redneck Bullsh*t. I have no time for that. It's lunacy.

I mean, all this talk about "gun safety", when I'm pretty sure that one of the primary rules of gun safety is "People who are drunk and/or intoxicated shouldn't be handling guns." Meanwhile, everyone on a movie set is either drunk, hungover, or high on cocaine. It's a miracle there aren't more of these "accidents".

BUT, they're 100% preventable, and doing less than 100% to prevent them is irresponsible. I have no problem with guns. But they just don't belong in certain places. They don't belong on a movie set any more than they belong in school or church. Except if you're a security guard, obviously, but that's a different conversation.

"But the recoil!" Nobody. CARES. No-f*cking-body cares if the recoil looks "real". Everybody wants the entire industry to switch to fake guns.

This is like some "We've always had separate water fountains for black people, so let's just keep doing that even though it's stupid and makes no sense" kinda sh*t. Things evolve, that's real life.

[mrmaczaps]

No, he's not. At best he's "partially responsible". And even that is a stretch.

There were people on set who were PAID to make sure the gun wasn't loaded. THEY did not do their jobs. End of story.

I'll find the articles later about what a colossal idiot the girl with the job of "head armorer" was. You may be fascinated to read what a complete moron she is and how completely irresponsible she's been from the day she started working in the industry. Someone getting killed on one of her sets was only a matter of time, and this happened to be The Time.

I get it, you hate Alec Baldwin because he's a Democrat. I hate his politics, too, but his job is to point the gun and pull the trigger when someone says "ACTION!". That's it. The previous 87 steps regarding whether or not it was loaded were all LITERALLY someone else's responsibility. A "job" is more than just a goddamn title. The people whose JOB it was - their ONE job, in fact - did not do their One Job. There's simply no getting around that. If all blame rests on Alec Baldwin, WHY are those people even paid to be there? Come on. Objective Reasoning.

Turns out all of them - including Baldwin, as a producer - are getting sued. Well, that's fine. That's what should happen. He is "responsible" in that he is a producer and somehow or other a complete moron got hired to oversee the firearms. He's NOT responsible for her not doing her job, that's 100% on her.

Seriously, I'll find the articles I read and link them later. You won't BELIEVE what a f*cking idiot this girl is. If you end up reading all of that and still think that Baldwin is more at fault than she is... then I'm sorry, you're completely biased and beyond help.

And also... Real Guns don't belong anywhere on a movie set to begin with. If nothing else comes out of this, at least that's going to be done away with once and for all, which is long overdue. "But actors won't be able to amuse themselves between takes by shooting at cans anymore!" :roll: Cry me a f*cking river. That redneck sh*t is SO damn important, I'm sure.

Don't actually care that he's a democrat. He was handed a firearm. 100% HIS responsibility to double, triple, quadruple check that it was not loaded or properly loaded with blanks or whatever & ready for use a prop. And then to NOT point it at a living person. He is solely responsible because he did not follow ANY of the normal gun safety rules. Had he followed the rules, the person that is deceased would not be and the other person wouldn't have been wounded. It is also the fault of the person who's job it was to check, but apparently everyone on set was aware she was terrible at her job.

[Leo656]

Why have a "head armorer" whose job it is to check the firearms at all, then? To stand around?

There were multiple people whose entire job was to ensure that gun was "safe" by the time it reached Alec Baldwin's hands. I'm willing to bet that Alec Baldwin never in his life handled a real gun outside of a movie set. Most people haven't.

If someone hands me a gun and asks me to "check it", I have no idea what I'm looking at. Most people don't. If I'm an actor, nowhere is that in my job description. I'm trusting the people who DO have it in their job description, to do their goddamn job.

When I show up to wrestle, it's not my job to inspect the ring for loose cables or broken boards. I CAN do that, and some guys in fact do. But I am not supposed to HAVE to; my job is to get in the ring and perform, not to build and/or inspect it. I'm supposed to trust that the dozen guys with "Ring Crew" in their job title all did their job. Because that is the ONLY reason those people are there. If I have to do their job for them then something is very wrong.

And if I shoot a guy into the ropes, and the rope breaks - which has happened, not to me personally but I've witnessed it up close - and the guy hits the floor and gets hurt, *I* am not the one at fault and I'm not the one who gets fired. That's the Ring Crew Guy who f*cked up, and they're the one who gets the heat. I only did exactly what I was supposed to do; "mechanical failures" are not my problem because none of that is in my job description. Because me shooting the guy into the ropes isn't why they broke, in this hypothetical; they broke because they were put on wrong, and I wasn't the one in charge of that.

Even if Alec Baldwin "checked the gun", you have no reason to believe that he'd even know what he was looking at. And it also doesn't negate the fact that this woman in charge of gun safety was completely negligent in her duties on another movie earlier this year, and that prop guns were going off like Jiffy-Pop all week long on this movie's set before the incident with Baldwin even happened.

It's technically true that Alec Baldwin pulling the trigger was what caused the cinematographer's death. BUT. If the person whose ONLY job it was to ensure gun safety had done their job, then Alec Baldwin isn't holding a loaded gun in the first place.

That's just simple Cause and Effect. Sh*t rolls downhill, not uphill.

[skylord]

for a stage play we handled a real gun for a murder mystery show. There was a very lengthy, standard set of procedures we had to follow. As stage manager I was part of this process.

1. I had to retrieve the gun which was locked in a room on the opposite side of the building and also unlock it from a safe for which I was the only one with the key.
2. The gun, stored in a small locked box, was handed to someone else familiar with guns to make sure the gun was not loaded, including the barrel. They would then load with blanks.
3. The gun was only handled by the actor who used it during the show. It stayed in his possession until after the scene it was used.
4. When firing the blanks, the gun was aimed not at the other actor, but behind them, using the angle from the audience to obscure the reality of the shot angle.
5. Gun was confirmed empty, placed back in the box and I would take it back to the safe.

The gun was handled by 3 people, each one with specific tasks. Nobody was aimed at and the gun was inspected thoroughly before each use.

I still don't think it was worth it. ****'s dangerous. A community college doesn't need a real gun for a cheap stage play. Ideally if a gun is used, it should never be pointed at a person if possible. Human error is just impossible to avoid entirely.

[Papenbrook]

I'm just worried about the outcome of this tragedy.

What will be learned?

[Leo656]

for a stage play we handled a real gun for a murder mystery show. There was a very lengthy, standard set of procedures we had to follow. As stage manager I was part of this process.

1. I had to retrieve the gun which was locked in a room on the opposite side of the building and also unlock it from a safe for which I was the only one with the key.
2. The gun, stored in a small locked box, was handed to someone else familiar with guns to make sure the gun was not loaded, including the barrel. They would then load with blanks.
3. The gun was only handled by the actor who used it during the show. It stayed in his possession until after the scene it was used.
4. When firing the blanks, the gun was aimed not at the other actor, but behind them, using the angle from the audience to obscure the reality of the shot angle.
5. Gun was confirmed empty, placed back in the box and I would take it back to the safe.

The gun was handled by 3 people, each one with specific tasks. Nobody was aimed at and the gun was inspected thoroughly before each use.

I still don't think it was worth it. ****'s dangerous. A community college doesn't need a real gun for a cheap stage play. Ideally if a gun is used, it should never be pointed at a person if possible. Human error is just impossible to avoid entirely.

This shocks me. My first question is "Why?" For a stage play? Wow. Seems a bit excessive to have an actual gun in use for something like THAT. The closest person in the audience is gonna be like ten feet away AND everything they're gonna see is already gonna look more fake than usual, just given the fact that it's a stage play. Who the heck made THAT call? "What we REALLY need is a real gun. That'll distract everyone from the fact that there's curtains, a boom mic, and a stage. We gotta keep it REAL, after all!" :lol:: Like, what? I kinda don't think ya do!

Kinda seems like the polar opposite of Common Sense, to me. I'd f*cking leave, were I in that cast. Like "Nah, have fun guys, I'm out. I'm not getting paid enough for whatever the heck this is." A movie, same thing. I'm here to dick around and play pretend, don't go waving a f*cking gun around anywhere near me. With my luck I'd be the one getting accidentally shot. Nah. "That doesn't work for me, Brother."

[skylord]

This shocks me. My first question is "Why?" For a stage play? Wow. Seems a bit excessive to have an actual gun in use for something like THAT. The closest person in the audience is gonna be like ten feet away AND everything they're gonna see is already gonna look more fake than usual, just given the fact that it's a stage play. Who the heck made THAT call? "What we REALLY need is a real gun. That'll distract everyone from the fact that there's curtains, a boom mic, and a stage. We gotta keep it REAL, after all!" :lol:: Like, what? I kinda don't think ya do!

Kinda seems like the polar opposite of Common Sense, to me. I'd f*cking leave, were I in that cast. Like "Nah, have fun guys, I'm out. I'm not getting paid enough for whatever the heck this is." A movie, same thing. I'm here to dick around and play pretend, don't go waving a f*cking gun around anywhere near me. With my luck I'd be the one getting accidentally shot. Nah. "That doesn't work for me, Brother."

To make matters worse, it was a thrust stage so the angle trick only worked on a portion of the audience. It was roughly this size:

https://louisville.edu/theatrearts/facilities/images/thrust1.jpg/@@images/208ec0e2-01e2-4703-924b-584edce7b917.jpeg

In a small room like this all we did was hurt everybody's ears. Also this was community theater so nobody got paid except the director who decided to bring in a real gun.

Seriously looking back it makes no sense. The director had a big ego and wanted to sell the "realism" by using a real gun instead of a sound effect.

[Leo656]

Oh, f*cking lovely. :lol: Guy sounds like a real winner.

One of my buddies from wrestling has been in the hospital for two weeks (and counting) with third-degree burns all over his body after doing a deathmatch with Atsushi Onita on some independent show in front of (maybe) 300 people at most. He's a nice guy, but he's a f*cking idiot and he's lucky to be alive.

Because, y'know... it's fake. Therefore sh*t like that is totally unnecessary.

Like, what's the Upside/Downside on that kinda sh*t? What is the f*cking POINT? Who are you gonna impress? Nobody WORTH impressing, I can tell you that for nothing. And worst-case, someone could die for no reason at all. Stupid!

[Jester]

What the...?

What happened?

[Leo656]

To who, my buddy Matt Tremont? Short version, "He agreed to a deathmatch with goddamn Atsushi Onita." :lol: They just did a whole "Dark Side of the Ring" episode on Onita, and the entire Japanese Death Match culture. Give it a watch on YouTube, it's fascinating stuff even though your faith in humanity will drop a hundred points in less than an hour.

I didn't see the match itself because I think deathmatch wrestling is garbage, even though I have a lot of friends who do it. But a fire stunt went horribly wrong and my buddy got the worst of it.

He owns the company, he promoted the show, he paid Onita to fly over from Japan, he booked the match, and he agreed to do the fire stunt. So, to his credit, he's not pointing any fingers.

STILL just about the stupidest goddamn thing I've ever seen or heard of in my entire goddamn life, though. Pro Wrestling Is Not Real. Setting yourself on fire in front of 200 sweaty mouth-breathers who would cheer at a lynching does NOT make it any more "real", it just makes you a self-mutilating dumbass. That's my position.

BUT, Matt is a teddy bear so I love and am rooting for him. I just wish he had more common sense. Because he really is a sweet guy. But in this, he has absolutely no one to blame but himself. Never should have been booked. Zero upside. NONE.

Figure 250 people there at $20-30 a ticket... even if you round it up to 300 people at $30 a head, that's what, nine grand? And I know Onita probably got paid a few thousand bucks, especially with travel expenses. Probably 30 other guys in the locker room, they each get paid from the gate. Then there's the building rental and the insurance... putting on a wrestling show is SUPER expensive and most indy shows LOSE money at the end of the night.

If my buddy went home with two grand in his pocket at the end of the night, that'd be a miracle. And that's BEFORE the lengthy stay in the burn ward. I don't know if he has health insurance, but most wrestlers don't, so... yeah.

Play Stupid Games, Win Stupid Prizes. Again, I love the guy. But... just... WHY? WHY would anyone do this? I don't understand. I'll never understand.

It's just entertainment. People shouldn't get hurt.

[Jester]

Yikes. You're right, that's messed up and in essence (as dark as the thought is, from a business stand point) even more lost money since he's out of commission and can't do a whole lot while he's mending.

[Leo656]

Yeah. :ohwell:

Some of the message board comments about him and his situation are... not kind. They make me mad, but I have to remind myself that 1. I know him personally, these people calling him nasty names do not, and 2. Objectively, they're not altogether wrong, even though they have no goddamn tact in expressing their feelings on the matter.

Like, nobody is GLAD he got hurt and they wouldn't be glad if he'd died. But I'm seeing a lot of, "Well f*ck it, if he did die then that's what he gets. Now he's taking up hospital resources that could've gone to someone with cancer or Covid or... y'know, anything that's not a self-inflicted 'I'm just a dumb idiot' type sh*t."

And I mean, they're not wrong. It's MEAN, but it's not factually incorrect.

Stuff like this is why when I see people get hurt needlessly - for entertainment - I just really push back hard on it. Guns on a movie set, guy getting burned alive in front of a couple hundred bloodthirsty nerds... "Do these things NEED to happen, and can they be avoided?"

Absolutely No, and Absolutely Yes.

[mrmaczaps]

Why have a "head armorer" whose job it is to check the firearms at all, then? To stand around?

There were multiple people whose entire job was to ensure that gun was "safe" by the time it reached Alec Baldwin's hands. I'm willing to bet that Alec Baldwin never in his life handled a real gun outside of a movie set. Most people haven't.

If someone hands me a gun and asks me to "check it", I have no idea what I'm looking at. Most people don't. If I'm an actor, nowhere is that in my job description. I'm trusting the people who DO have it in their job description, to do their goddamn job.

When I show up to wrestle, it's not my job to inspect the ring for loose cables or broken boards. I CAN do that, and some guys in fact do. But I am not supposed to HAVE to; my job is to get in the ring and perform, not to build and/or inspect it. I'm supposed to trust that the dozen guys with "Ring Crew" in their job title all did their job. Because that is the ONLY reason those people are there. If I have to do their job for them then something is very wrong.

And if I shoot a guy into the ropes, and the rope breaks - which has happened, not to me personally but I've witnessed it up close - and the guy hits the floor and gets hurt, *I* am not the one at fault and I'm not the one who gets fired. That's the Ring Crew Guy who f*cked up, and they're the one who gets the heat. I only did exactly what I was supposed to do; "mechanical failures" are not my problem because none of that is in my job description. Because me shooting the guy into the ropes isn't why they broke, in this hypothetical; they broke because they were put on wrong, and I wasn't the one in charge of that.

Even if Alec Baldwin "checked the gun", you have no reason to believe that he'd even know what he was looking at. And it also doesn't negate the fact that this woman in charge of gun safety was completely negligent in her duties on another movie earlier this year, and that prop guns were going off like Jiffy-Pop all week long on this movie's set before the incident with Baldwin even happened.

It's technically true that Alec Baldwin pulling the trigger was what caused the cinematographer's death. BUT. If the person whose ONLY job it was to ensure gun safety had done their job, then Alec Baldwin isn't holding a loaded gun in the first place.

That's just simple Cause and Effect. Sh*t rolls downhill, not uphill.

The actor in this case is also the director & likely okay'd the hiring of this armory person & didn't do his due diligence. Plus the fact that more reports came out saying she was terrible at her job before this incident, plus the fact that it was a real firearm & not an unworking prop or cap gun, would all point to Baldwin being responsible.

All I can say from sitting home in my easy chair is any time someone hands me a gun, I fully expect they check it before handing it over to me & I fully check it once its in my hands. Once in my hands, anything that happens with it is on me. But then, I'm a responsible firearms owner not some pos douchebag actor who thinks his sh!t don't stink that hates freedom. :tlol:

[oldmanwinters]

Things are starting to get very weird on this story:
https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/alec-baldwin-interview-rust-shooting-202159907.html

[Sumac]

I wonder, how does this work?

[IMJ]

I wonder, how does this work?

He is an actor. He's deflecting to create doubt and then curiosity on the story. Probably on advice of his counsel.

he real surprise, however, was George Stephanopoulos asking why he fired the gun when it wasn't in the script and Baldwin replied, "The trigger wasn't pulled. I didn't pull the trigger."

So he never pulled the trigger? "No, no, no, no," Baldwin answered. "I would never point a gun at anyone and pull the trigger at them, never." But there was no explanation beyond that.

Then, while he goes on public "tour" creating vague doubt, the anger subsides for curiosity and then they will suddenly interject "a truth".

Welcome to the textbook manipulations of the $#!(bag left.

[oldmanwinters]

Assistant Director now says the gun must have misfired because Baldwin never put his finger on the trigger (on a gun that was never supposed to contain live rounds... on the set for a scene that apparently wasn't scripted for gunfire):
https://www.yahoo.com/news/apos-rust-apos-assistant-director-132246934.html

I guess this is just one bizarre instance of terrible luck, or... well...

[frank_one]

At some point they will say the gun was remote-controlled.

[oldmanwinters]

At some point they will say the gun was remote-controlled.

This could end up being a conspiracy so wild that it gets its own movie.

I still favor the simple explanations of incompetence and negligence, of course.

[Sumac]

So much deflection from a ****** human.
Funny thing, even if he won't end up in jail, he still will live with this guilt up until the end of his days.

I think, if he won't be found guilty, this punishment is enough.

[Andrew NDB]

I honestly don't think he will be even charged with anything, let alone tried. I don't necessarily think he should be, either. Though I don't believe his "I didn't pull the trigger" thing for a second. Smacks of, "Well, can you prove that I did?" Because it sounds way better if he just claims he didn't.

It doesn't really matter though, IMO. Even if he were to have stopped and checked the chamber... what was he supposed to do? Stop when he sees that there's something in the chamber? There was supposed to be anyway, right? A blank? Then what is he supposed to do, take it out and look at it? I mean, maybe? I would. Most actors probably would. But it's not really on him at that point.

[frank_one]

Baldwin is an actor. He was there to act, with a gun that was supposed to be harmless. Other people were in charge of the safety of that working place. They told him it was safe to play with the gun, that's all he needed to know. They were wrong, they will pay. Baldwin is not responsible for what happened. No matter how his finger interacted with the trigger.

[mrmaczaps]

I honestly don't think he will be even charged with anything, let alone tried. I don't necessarily think he should be, either. Though I don't believe his "I didn't pull the trigger" thing for a second. Smacks of, "Well, can you prove that I did?" Because it sounds way better if he just claims he didn't.

It doesn't really matter though, IMO. Even if he were to have stopped and checked the chamber... what was he supposed to do? Stop when he sees that there's something in the chamber? There was supposed to be anyway, right? A blank? Then what is he supposed to do, take it out and look at it? I mean, maybe? I would. Most actors probably would. But it's not really on him at that point.

If he were "just" an actor and not also involved in the "making the movie & hiring people to work it" aspect, I'd say sure but in this case, he isn't just the actor on set. Its his movie. He hired the people who hired people to make the movie safe and was aware they were doing a terrible job keeping the movie safe.... so yeah, firearms safety says he himself should have checked that firearm. Any normal, responsible gun owner would have checked that thing & then made sure NOT to point it at any living human being that wasn't trying to kill them with hands, fist, feet skateboard or any other blunt force object and/or their own gun...

[oldmanwinters]

Funny thing, even if he won't end up in jail, he still will live with this guilt up until the end of his days.

I think, if he won't be found guilty, this punishment is enough.

Nah, his conscience is totally clean. Totally. Totally.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/alec-baldwin-doesnt-feel-guilt-120334649.html

EDIT: "Bo Duke" apparently has an opinion on the whole thing:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/john-schneider-rails-against-alec-041557767.html

[IMJ]

Baldwin is an actor. He was there to act, with a gun that was supposed to be harmless. Other people were in charge of the safety of that working place. They told him it was safe to play with the gun, that's all he needed to know. They were wrong, they will pay. Baldwin is not responsible for what happened. No matter how his finger interacted with the trigger.

Well we don't know all of the details, and the action around it seems to be that there may have been more going on - not necessarily from Baldwin himself, but in the production he was managing.

So basically if what you outlined above was all there is in it's purest form, then sure. But that's why we have a court system, which more and more I'm convinced is the last bastion of clear judgement in this country right now. It's in the courts that all of the finer and more intellectual and sophisticated details will come out that a real judgement can be made.

[frank_one]

So basically if what you outlined above was all there is in it's purest form, then sure. But that's why we have a court system, which more and more I'm convinced is the last bastion of clear judgement in this country right now. It's in the courts that all of the finer and more intellectual and sophisticated details will come out that a real judgement can be made.Right. I was just thinking of Baldwin as an actor on a set but that's not the full story as he was also the main (I guess) producer for the project. He COULD have some responsibility after all. We will see.

[Andrew NDB]

If he were "just" an actor and not also involved in the "making the movie & hiring people to work it" aspect, I'd say sure but in this case, he isn't just the actor on set. Its his movie. He hired the people who hired people to make the movie safe

I guess that's true to a certain extent. It could be looked at like, let's say you're the owner of a car being raced by a driver at a raceway. You hired the guy that's in charge of looking under the car for car bombs. Before the race, the guy says that there's no need to check under the car for a car bomb, because he already checked. Then the car blows up from a car bomb on the first lap killing the driver, and it turns out the guy the car owner hired to check for car bombs had not only never really done that before, but also maybe used to blow up toy cars as a youth. Now it's kind of on the owner, the guy that hired him.

[IMJ]

I guess that's true to a certain extent. It could be looked at like, let's say you're the owner of a car being raced by a driver at a raceway. You hired the guy that's in charge of looking under the car for car bombs. Before the race, the guy says that there's no need to check under the car for a car bomb, because he already checked. Then the car blows up from a car bomb on the first lap killing the driver, and it turns out the guy the car owner hired to check for car bombs had not only never really done that before, but also maybe used to blow up toy cars as a youth. Now it's kind of on the owner, the guy that hired him.

There's that, and I'm also feeling that the real.... let's say "truth bomb" of the Baldwin situation will be to vet out whatever was going on against all of the talk of the unhappy production. That's a slippery slope. There are jobs everywhere where people are unhappy and problems ensue, but it's still on the employee to tolerate the situation or find another job.

And so the slippery slope really becomes

-what was going on in the production that may have lead to.... I dunno.... sabotage, foul play, whatever you'd call the priming of the gun incident
-what extent was the "negativity" in the production that caused a "revolt" to the extent that a loaded gun was present
-and if none of that is measurable, then bare minimum (as it sounds like we all understand here) what is Baldwin's liability? For example, an organizational rule might be that the Weapons-Master clears the fire arm and that's it, but if there's a state or Federal Statute somewhere that says, "no, the person of use ALSO clears the firearm" then in that case the higher governmental body takes precedent.

Institutional Directives are trumped by Administrative Directives which are trumped by state directives which are trumped be Federal Directives.

And so as I see it, there are two complexities -

the complexity of whether or not "@$$hole behavior" enabled a crime
the complexity of whether or not "violation of directive" enabled a crime

[joe-eyeball]

Baldwin is not responsible for what happened. No matter how his finger interacted with the trigger.

I 100% guarantee you that even Baldwin himself doesn’t believe this. After all the only logical reason for him to say something as ridiculous as “I didn’t even put my finger on the trigger” is because he knows a civil suit is going to happen. And even if what he did was an accident he is still very much responsible for what happened. Now whether or not he is found responsible in any legal fashion is entirely another thing.

[mrmaczaps]

Baldwin is an actor. He was there to act, with a gun that was supposed to be harmless. Other people were in charge of the safety of that working place. They told him it was safe to play with the gun, that's all he needed to know. They were wrong, they will pay. Baldwin is not responsible for what happened. No matter how his finger interacted with the trigger.

Hey Frank. Come on over. I'm going to tell you this firearm is clear & you can point it at one of your friends and/or loved ones & pull the trigger. You pull the trigger & your current/last significant other is standing down range with a 5.56 through their chest & they fall over dead. Who is responsible? For us normal folks, you are. But for pedo elite hollywood types, the gun is at fault or the "other guy" (in this case of Baldwin, the person he hired, lol)...

Flip it, you come over, hand me a gun after having fun at the range. Know what I'm doing first, even though you said its empty? Fvcking checking it, cuz 3ven if we were best friends for 30+ years, I treat EVERY firearm as if its loaded UNTIL I've cleared it... at least three times... lol.

[frank_one]

Hey Frank. Come on over. I'm going to tell you this firearm is clearYeah, yeah, I get it :D BUT on an Hollywood set it is different. There's some kind of hierarchy, a shared responsibility, agreements, written and signed contracts that tell who is responsible of whatever is used or done. We are talking about professional stuff, not just two drunk guys like you and me on a street playing with a gun and trying to hit a can.

[Coola Yagami]

Has any of the blame gone to the weapon checker person?

I don't think Alec did anything wrong when they literally pay a person to check the weapons. All the blame should go that person. But I'm assuming that person is a nobody and won't make all the big headlines the way 'Alec Baldwin killed someone' would.

[mrmaczaps]

Yeah, yeah, I get it :D BUT on an Hollywood set it is different. There's some kind of hierarchy, a shared responsibility, agreements, written and signed contracts that tell who is responsible of whatever is used or done. We are talking about professional stuff, not just two drunk guys like you and me on a street playing with a gun and trying to hit a can.

Well, I'm a responsible firearms owner so I wouldn't be drunk or hand you a firearm if you're drunk... Alec is at least partially responsible no matter how you shake it down. He cocked that thing & pulled the trigger. The person he was paying to make sure the firearm was ready for use on set is also responsible for failing to do the one job they had, which apparently was well known that they sucked at that one job as there were other previous issues.... except Baldwin didn't fire that person or check the firearm and someone died.

[Andrew NDB]

I 100% guarantee you that even Baldwin himself doesn’t believe this. After all the only logical reason for him to say something as ridiculous as “I didn’t even put my finger on the trigger” is because he knows a civil suit is going to happen.

That's true. I'd never even considered a civil suit in this. I bet that's exactly what's going on.

[Leo656]

Seriously? This is like a textbook case of why civil suits happen in the first place. I swear I called for it on like Page 1 or 2 of the thread. Obviously there was going to be a civil suit, regardless of whether or not anyone went to jail. There'd still be issues of liability and compensation for the victims and their families and whatnot.

Things like this don't happen without SOMEone getting sued. That's why there's Civil Court and Criminal Court in the first place. Whether or not anyone would do time over an incident such as this, THAT was always a big question mark. The civil suit was a promise from the jump, though.

[1987]

Alec Baldwin has apparently threatened someone on twitter for pointing out his hipocrisy

https://i.imgur.com/eSMSK1i.jpg

still making it threats after getting away with murder. liberal privilege

[Coola Yagami]

Alec Baldwin has apparently threatened someone on twitter for pointing out his hipocrisy

https://i.imgur.com/eSMSK1i.jpg

still making it threats after getting away with murder. liberal privilege

What the ****in' hell. That should get him banned from Twitter. But I guess he has the right politics.

[mrmaczaps]

What the ****in' hell. That should get him banned from Twitter. But I guess he has the right politics.

Liberal Privilege. Same thing that allowed him to get away with murder.

[Leo656]

Add "murder" to the List Of Words Far-Right Dromers Love To Throw Around Despite Having No Clue What They Actually Mean.

[Andrew NDB]

He could definitely be charged with manslaughter. Though I don't think he'd be found guilty of it, given other factors.

[Leo656]

And "manslaughter" and "murder" are entirely different things, yes.

I admit I only dip in and out on this one. Still not hearing much about any charges of Criminal Negligence towards the head armorer. The one who was oft-complained about on her previous set for lack of safety protocols, haphazardly waving loaded guns around, etc. People who worked with her were already predicting someone would be shot dead on one of her sets one day because she was a total clown who only got the job because her parent was semi-known in the industry. And yet that part of the story seems to weave in and out of relevance, and I admit that I'm confused as to Why That Is.

She didn't do her job and someone died, so why isn't anyone screaming for HER head? Is it because she's not as famous? That's dumb. Because she wasn't physically holding the gun? It was only through HER being a complete failure at her job that anyone else WAS holding a loaded gun in the first place. So what gives? Now and again, I will see an article about her that's full of people who worked with her saying outright, "This was always going to happen on one of her sets"... but then it disappears in a day or so and gets no traction.

I mean, is it because she's a woman working in a traditionally male role in Hollywood? Does that make her part of the "protected" class and thus all blame needs to be shifted elsewhere? It just makes no sense at all. Everything that happened was ultimately more Her Fault than anyone else's. A literal case of, "You Had ONE Job", and she didn't do it.

If people want to throw frivolous charges against the actor, which he will very easily beat in court and walk away from unscathed, then fine, if they must... but it still seems to me that the more obvious target (snicker) is Right There and yet nobody wants to see whatsername get hers. It's baffling.

If I were a prosecuting attorney, the case against the head armorer for Criminal Negligence is much stronger than any case one could put against Alec Baldwin. He just says "It was an accident" and he walks away, open and shut. In her case, though, there's a chain of events and a history of negligent behavior and reckless endangerment on multiple movie sets, and many people claiming they felt unsafe with her in charge of the guns. So if I'm a prosecutor, I want the case I can actually win.

The chick must have some good connections, that's all I can guess. Otherwise if anyone bothered to prosecute her it would pretty much be a slam dunk. I mean she'd probably get a light sentence but she'd almost certainly be found guilty of SOME thing just as a matter of course. So it's weird to me that nobody even wants to think about any of that.

[Andrew NDB]

If he does get charged with manslaughter, that's the way things would go. The defense would go, "The armourer!" and the prosecution would say, "But Mr. Baldwin, you were a producer on it, responsible for the production of the movie and had some say in blah blah blah." But it's not really a winnable case against him.

[Leo656]

Yeah, the fact he as a producer may have been involved in hiring her reflects poorly on him, but he could always just deflect and say he was too busy to thoroughly check her references.

But yeah, it's pointless to even try and criminalize him. He'd walk. He was told the gun was safe and he trusted the word of the "expert" who was hired and put there to ensure the guns were safe. If he wanted to, and he was hypothetically charged with manslaughter and it went to court, he could have them ask anyone who'd ever fired a gun on a movie set, "Did you personally go through the 28 safety steps to ensure the gun was safe before pulling the trigger? Or did you trust the person who handed you the gun, who was actually paid to do all that?" And every single actor who was asked would 100% say, "No man, I'm just the actor, if someone hands me a gun I assume they already checked it, because that's their job, not mine!" And then that's the end of that. It would be a clown show to even try and prosecute Baldwin, just a complete waste of time and money. There's not a single thing that would stick.

The "expert", though, who lied about the gun being safe and also about lots of other things regarding the weapons safety on-set... well, there's a case where things might actually stick. "Oh, people said her last set was a zoo, too? Well, there we have it, Pattern of Behavior."

I'm left to believe that since nobody even knows who she is, it's just not as juicy a story.

[mrmaczaps]

The woman who should have made sure there ere blanks in the firearm is partly responsible, however, she is not the one holding the gun, pointing it at a human & pulled the trigger without checking it first. If anyone not famous had done this, it would be manslaughter. So, yeah. Maybe not murder, but I would argue, being a responsible gun owner, that it was murder because he intentionally pointed that firearm down range at a person & pulled the trigger. Intentionally being the key issue. If you don't know the 4 rules of gun safety, you shouldn't touch a firearm, ever. Even a "prop" gun. Not sorry.

[Leo656]

"Murder" directly necessitates by definition that Person A had every intention of killing Person B through their actions, "Professor".

And if you honestly think Alec Baldwin went to work that day with the direct intention of killing someone then I am extremely thankful you haven't been tasked with jury duty, for this or anything else. People can't just fling charged words around with no care for what they actually mean.

[mrmaczaps]

"Murder" directly necessitates by definition that Person A had every intention of killing Person B through their actions, "Professor".

And if you honestly think Alec Baldwin went to work that day with the direct intention of killing someone then I am extremely thankful you haven't been tasked with jury duty, for this or anything else. People can't just fling charged words around with no care for what they actually mean.

He intentionally pointed a firearm at a living, breathing human being without checking it, violating more than one of the 4 rules of gun safety, killing someone and harming another. Intentionally doing so by way of neglect. And he's a hollyweird pedo so woodchipper for the pos.

[Leo656]

Again, thank God you're not a jurist.

[Sumac]

He intentionally pointed a firearm at a living, breathing human being without checking it, violating more than one of the 4 rules of gun safety, killing someone and harming another. Intentionally doing so by way of neglect. And he's a hollyweird pedo so woodchipper for the pos.
You don't know how movie production works, neither how laws work, nor...really anything.

I wonder how do YOU function in day to day life without trying to shoot someone?

[mrmaczaps]

You don't know how movie production works, neither how laws work, nor...really anything.

I wonder how do YOU function in day to day life without trying to shoot someone?

Quite easily. I'm always armed and managed to still not murder a single person. Huh. Weird how that works when you know how to handle a firearm.

[Leo656]

Or when you live in Maine, where aside from the occasional surly mutant lobster-man there's nobody gonna act the fool anyway. :lol:

I've miraculously managed to avoid shooting anyone, also... A common side effect of "living in the suburbs". :trazz:

[mrmaczaps]

Or when you live in Maine, where aside from the occasional surly mutant lobster-man there's nobody gonna act the fool anyway. :lol:

I've miraculously managed to avoid shooting anyone, also... A common side effect of "living in the suburbs". :trazz:

Safest state in the nation because we're armed. :tcool:

[Leo656]

Google tells me it's because 99% of you are white and over 45 years of age, with a generally high median household income. :lol:

Something tells me that'd be a pretty safe place to live anyway, guns or no guns. :trazz:

[mrmaczaps]

Google tells me it's because 99% of you are white and over 45 years of age, with a generally high median household income. :lol:

Something tells me that'd be a pretty safe place to live anyway, guns or no guns. :trazz:

What google doesn't tell you is all the drive by shootings in the somolian hoods.

[Leo656]

There's like 10 Somalian people in the entire state. I still personally wouldn't sweat it.

It's like saying all of NJ is a madhouse because of Newark. It's not representative of where I live, which is Mr. Rogers's Neighborhood wth fewer puppets.

Nobody here even locks their doors most nights. They're not all jittery because 45 minutes away from here is a certified sh*thole. That would be a bit silly.

[mrmaczaps]

There's like 10 Somalian people in the entire state. I still personally wouldn't sweat it.

It's like saying all of NJ is a madhouse because of Newark. It's not representative of where I live, which is Mr. Rogers's Neighborhood wth fewer puppets.

Nobody here even locks their doors most nights. They're not all jittery because 45 minutes away from here is a certified sh*thole. That would be a bit silly.

There are a few thousand in my city alone... Portland has more.

A few years back, they did a driveby of the big park downtown with bb guns, pissed off some of the people who have been here all their lives & then proceeded to murder a guy with rocks. Despite video of it, none of the people were arrested or jailed. And the whole incident was swept under the rug... no one wanted to be called "racist" for arresting murderers.

[Sumac]

Quite easily. I'm always armed and managed to still not murder a single person. Huh. Weird how that works when you know how to handle a firearm.
"Press X to doubt.
Also, what it has to do with Baldwins' case?

All this "he should've checked" is a nonsense, it was person responsible for a firearm who was supposed to check it. Not an actor. Actor just goes out there and plays his part. If stunt coordinator ****ed up - its not actor's fault.

[Leo656]

By 'zaps logic, Vic Morrow and those two Chinese kids should'a just ducked. :lol:

[mrmaczaps]

"Press X to doubt.
Also, what it has to do with Baldwins' case?

All this "he should've checked" is a nonsense, it was person responsible for a firearm who was supposed to check it. Not an actor. Actor just goes out there and plays his part. If stunt coordinator ****ed up - its not actor's fault.

Rule number 1 of firearm safety is always treating every firearm as if its loaded. He himself failed at that one. Rule 2, never point it at anything you aren't willing to destroy.

I get it that he paid people to check the firearm, but he handled it & for his own safety, he should have also checked it. You will never change my mind on that.

[Sumac]

Rule number 1 of firearm safety is always treating every firearm as if its loaded. He himself failed at that one. Rule 2, never point it at anything you aren't willing to destroy.
Rule 1 applies when you dealing with a gun in uncontrolled environment.
Rule 2 is retarded when you are making a movie.

[Leo656]

Not one actor on any set in history has ever "followed the steps" before firing a prop gun, I assure you. It's not their job.

Similarly, as mentioned before, if I am told to crack someone in the head with a folding chair while I am "at work", I don't stop and check first to make sure someone took the pins out to ensure the seat caves in on impact. That's Someone Else's Job, my job is simply to take the "prop weapon" and simply use it as directed. The recipient gets a concussion because the chair wasn't gimmicked correctly? Not my fault, I am not the "prop technician" and I was assured the chair would be "safe" by the time I had my hands on it.

These people don't "own" the guns and they're not supposed to be using real ammo anyway. They're not responsible for the props. The Props Department is responsible for the props. This is such a ridiculous circle-jerk. "He should have checked anyway!" Hypothetically, perhaps. Realistically, that was not his obligation. There was a person whose entire paycheck revolved around doing that. THAT person f*cked up. End of.

Considering the head armorer was a woman, I'm surprised more people here would rather see Baldwin take the fall instead of her, especially since she's the one Actually At Fault. I mean, we know how much the average 'Drome poster hates women, especially in light of recent events/commentary. I guess they just hate Outspoken Democrats even more than they hate women? That's weird, but whatever. The fact the chick loves guns and likes making social media posts posing like she's Calamity Jane shouldn't exempt her from responsibility for the fact she got someone killed through her negligence... something other people she had worked with had said was "inevitable".

But then, this place isn't a place a person goes to for logical arguments. I realize that. It's just that at times it's SO bananas as to become baffling.

[Zulithe]

I can’t believe this thread on such an old story is five pages and still getting bumped. Some of you really need something better to do.

[mrmaczaps]

Rule 1 applies when you dealing with a gun in uncontrolled environment.
Rule 2 is retarded when you are making a movie.

They're 2 of the 4 rules for ANYTIME ANYONE handles ANY firearm.... or someone ends up perforated. Like in this case. If he had checked, no one would be dead. Use your head for something besides a hat rack.

[mrmaczaps]

Not one actor on any set in history has ever "followed the steps" before firing a prop gun, I assure you. It's not their job.

Similarly, as mentioned before, if I am told to crack someone in the head with a folding chair while I am "at work", I don't stop and check first to make sure someone took the pins out to ensure the seat caves in on impact. That's Someone Else's Job, my job is simply to take the "prop weapon" and simply use it as directed. The recipient gets a concussion because the chair wasn't gimmicked correctly? Not my fault, I am not the "prop technician" and I was assured the chair would be "safe" by the time I had my hands on it.

These people don't "own" the guns and they're not supposed to be using real ammo anyway. They're not responsible for the props. The Props Department is responsible for the props. This is such a ridiculous circle-jerk. "He should have checked anyway!" Hypothetically, perhaps. Realistically, that was not his obligation. There was a person whose entire paycheck revolved around doing that. THAT person f*cked up. End of.

Considering the head armorer was a woman, I'm surprised more people here would rather see Baldwin take the fall instead of her, especially since she's the one Actually At Fault. I mean, we know how much the average 'Drome poster hates women, especially in light of recent events/commentary. I guess they just hate Outspoken Democrats even more than they hate women? That's weird, but whatever. The fact the chick loves guns and likes making social media posts posing like she's Calamity Jane shouldn't exempt her from responsibility for the fact she got someone killed through her negligence... something other people she had worked with had said was "inevitable".

But then, this place isn't a place a person goes to for logical arguments. I realize that. It's just that at times it's SO bananas as to become baffling.

I think should both be in jail. She failed at her job, but likely still has one. He shot two people, one that died and should also face some repercussions.

If I'm handed a firearm, first thing I'm doing is checking to see its empty.

Also, why is it her fault or his fault when anytime a democrat murders people in public, its the guns fault? Lol.

[Sumac]

They're 2 of the 4 rules for ANYTIME ANYONE handles ANY firearm.... or someone ends up perforated. Like in this case. If he had checked, no one would be dead. Use your head for something besides a hat rack.
It is not his responsibility, as Leo had said.

[Andrew NDB]

I can’t believe this thread on such an old story is five pages and still getting bumped. Some of you really need something better to do.

It's not over. Charges could still be filed. Civil cases made. This is hardly "put to bed" by any means.

[Leo656]

I think they mean because in the grand scheme of things it's such a "nothing" of a story and people must really be bored to keep kicking it around. Not incorrect, really.

I mean nothing major is gonna come of it. Baldwin might be found liable in civil court as a producer for hiring someone incompetent, and end up paying a big fine. The armorer might also pay a fine after being found liable in either civil or criminal court, but it's doubtful she'll do any jail time either. At the end of the day it was a tragic accident, and we've seen plenty of those happen on movie sets. Nobody ever goes to jail over it, people just pay fines. Not very sexy by way of stories, but that's all that's going to happen.

[mrmaczaps]

It is not his responsibility, as Leo had said.

Who was holding the gun? That person bears at least SOME responsibility.

[Sumac]

Who was holding the gun? That person bears at least SOME responsibility.
Responsibility lies on a person who checks gun before the shoot.

[mrmaczaps]

Responsibility lies on a person who checks gun before the shoot.

Not when it comes to working firearms. Only an idiot takes a firearm and violates all the safety rules... wait, nevermind. Baldwin *is* an idiot. :tlol:

[Sumac]

Not when it comes to working firearms. Only an idiot takes a firearm and violates all the safety rules... wait, nevermind. Baldwin *is* an idiot. :tlol:
Its like arguing with a brick wall.

[Hamato Yoshi]

Walken checks the prop guns (esp after Penn scared the hell out of him on "At close range") , Cazale also checked it during Deer Hunter cabin scene

[mrmaczaps]

Think how safe the set of The Crow would have been if the actor with the gun had checked it first... people fail, so its up to whoever is holding/using it to do the check themselves.

[Cowabung-Gal]

Not when it comes to working firearms. Only an idiot takes a firearm and violates all the safety rules... wait, nevermind. Baldwin *is* an idiot. :tlol:

Baldwin is a **psycho**.

[Hamato Yoshi]

Not really , from what i heard an electrician was almost electrocuted during filming of The Crow so safety didnt seem optimal there (reminds me of a swedish drama Rederiet where power cables where in puddles of water on deck - yeah)

[mrmaczaps]

Baldwin is a **psycho**. true that

Not really , from what i heard an electrician was almost electrocuted during filming of The Crow so safety didnt seem optimal there (reminds me of a swedish drama Rederiet where power cables where in puddles of water on deck - yeah)

Never beard that story before... but it breaks down that you are responsible for your safety. I would have checked, even on a move set.

Heck, a dude today at the local mall collectibles show picked up a nerf gun & just pulled the trigger (without asking or checking the gun). I told him he 4 rules of gun safety & reminded him yet again, not to fvcking touch stuff thats not his. Buy it & then play with it. Had it been real, he would have damaged more merch than he could pay for, destroyed a table, a retaining wall as well as blown bits and pieces of merch & rounds into me & 2 others. He let himself out immediately after & didn't come back.

[Andrew NDB]

Baldwin is a **psycho**.

Kim Basinger has been saying that for decades now.

[ZariusTwo]

Settlement reached with Hutchins estate, filming on Rust to resume January

https://deadline.com/2022/10/alec-baldwin-rust-halyna-hutchins-settlement-1235135693/

[Andrew NDB]

filming on Rust to resume January

Daaamn, really? That's really shocking, honestly.

[Cowabung-Gal]

Daaamn, really? That's really shocking, honestly.

Why is it so shocking? Vic Morrow literally lost his head during the production of the Twilight Zone movie, but that didn’t stop them from completing and releasing the film.

[Andrew NDB]

Why is it so shocking? Vic Morrow literally lost his head during the production of the Twilight Zone movie, but that didn’t stop them from completing and releasing the film.

That was a radically different time.

I mean, good on them. Also, if I die or get killed on a movie set, the very least everyone in the production can do is complete the movie so everyone can at least see it.

[Coola Yagami]

I wonder if it's one of those 'very important movies' so who cares if the person died, the Message is all that really matters.

[The Deadman]

Her husband is getting an executive producer credit on it so I feel like that was in the terms of the settlement. Either let me do this or it doesnt go forward.

[IndigoErth]

Heard its more-so that the family will get part of the profits as settlement, rather than a demand else it doesn't happen.

Personally, find it a little dark that it's gonna go forward, but guess that's on them if they're even comfortable doing so.

[Andrew NDB]

I wonder if it's one of those 'very important movies' so who cares if the person died, the Message is all that really matters.

This seems too indie to be something like that, but maybe. The only guarantee is that a lot more people will check out the movie than would've ever before.

[oldmanwinters]

Baldwin and weapons handler to be charged with involuntary manslaughter.

[ChosenOne]

That's a shame. /s

[Andrew NDB]

Yeesh. Could be a really ugly court case on what the prosecution will have to do in the courtroom.

[ChosenOne]

Yeesh. Could be a really ugly court case on what the prosecution will have to do in the courtroom.

They'll just have to take their best shot. Hopefully they aim for a conviction and bring in some high-caliber legal minds, none of that shoot-from-the-hip crap.

[oldmanwinters]

They'll just have to take their best shot. Hopefully they aim for a conviction and bring in some high-caliber legal minds, none of that shoot-from-the-hip crap.

https://i.imgur.com/tNmSqekm.png

[oldmanwinters]

Sounds like Baldwin is dead set on getting the film finished. Wow.

[ChosenOne]

Sounds like Baldwin is dead set on getting the film finished. Wow.

Well, better to be dead set than dead on set, I always say.

[oldmanwinters]

Well, better to be dead set than dead on set, I always say.

https://i.imgur.com/tNmSqekm.png

[TurtleManiac]

Sounds like Baldwin is dead set on getting the film finished. Wow.

Well, better to be dead set than dead on set, I always say.

I stand behind Alec Baldwin…

because no way I’m standing in front of him!

[oldmanwinters]

I stand behind Alec Baldwin…

because no way I’m standing in front of him!

https://i.imgur.com/tNmSqekm.png

[Cowabung-Gal]

I stand behind Alec Baldwin…

because no way I’m standing in front of him!

https://media.tenor.com/0fnj9X12_JQAAAAC/regular-show.gif

[ChosenOne]

I stand behind Alec Baldwin…

because no way I’m standing in front of him!

Damn I had that one last round in the chamber and was waiting for a chance to use it, but you were just quicker on the draw. Way to shoot my hopes down.

[oldmanwinters]

I stand behind Alec Baldwin…

because no way I’m standing in front of him!

Damn I had that one last round in the chamber and was waiting for a chance to use it, but you were just quicker on the draw. Way to shoot my hopes down.

I've actually seen that one pop up on Facebook and Twitter for months, so as good as it is, I doubt TurtleManiac thought it up independently.

[ChosenOne]

I've actually seen that one pop up on Facebook and Twitter for months, so as good as it is, I doubt TurtleManiac thought it up independently.

Oh, absolutely, I'd seen them all online already, but these will never get old. Just like poor Mrs. Hutchins.

[Andrew NDB]

I guess the charges were dropped? News to me. Also, the movie is wrapped.

https://www.darkhorizons.com/western-film-rust-wraps-photography/

[Mayhem]

I guess the charges were dropped? News to me. Also, the movie is wrapped.

https://www.darkhorizons.com/western-film-rust-wraps-photography/
Yeah they announced charges were being dropped about a month ago.

[Andrew NDB]

They're going after him again after "new facts" emerge.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/prosecutors-seek-to-recharge-alec-baldwin-in-rust-shooting-after-additional-facts-emerge/ar-AA1inOBh?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=83bced13352d4bcb870bf705539e3e1e&ei=12

[ProphetofGanja]

They're going after him again after "new facts" emerge.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/prosecutors-seek-to-recharge-alec-baldwin-in-rust-shooting-after-additional-facts-emerge/ar-AA1inOBh?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=83bced13352d4bcb870bf705539e3e1e&ei=12

wtf msn is still a thing?

[Sumac]

Guess he crossed someone high and mighty, huh?

[oldmanwinters]

Gun supervisor sentencing today:
https://www.wmur.com/article/gun-supervisor-rust-movie-set-shooting-sentencing/60497829
EDIT x2:
18 months maximum
https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/rust-movie-armorer-hannah-gutierrez-162353863.html

Did this movie ever come out? I had sorta lost track of it all.
EDIT:
I guess there was a "first look" in January:
https://deadline.com/2024/01/rust-movie-photos-alec-baldwin-halyna-hutchins-1235693699/

[oldmanwinters]

I had thought all the "news" about this might be over:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/prosecutors-allege-alec-baldwin-engaged-171657523.html

[Andrew NDB]

Judge dismissed the case.

XKh9yPyHHaA

[ZariusTwo]

The left really can get away with bloody murder...

[IMJ]

He got away with it on a Judicial technicality regarding the evidence, and rightfully so on the Judicial side - that's not the problem. But if you read the story, it seems almost like a paid-off setup to create a situation to have it dropped - it's that ridiculous.

The left - littered with finger pointers who routinely do the thing that they claim their opposition is doing.

[Andrew NDB]

No matter how you shake it, he picked up a loaded gun with real ammunition, pointed it at a woman, fired at her and killed her.

[ToTheNines]

The left really can get away with bloody murder...

I mean, Joe Biden killed Trump in that debate and got away with it…

[ZariusTwo]

Due out for Festival screenings in November

https://deadline.com/2024/10/alec-baldwin-rust-halyna-hutchins-camerimage-film-festival-poland-2024-1236106047/

[Andrew NDB]

ODSgb2LpGgY

[ToTheNines]

lol, holy ****. Gonna have to follow that guy.

[Andrew NDB]

"She's looking down right now... she's saying thank you for confronting the man who took me out!"

Good lord... lol... that's hardcore. I also like that Baldwin's response to someone confronting him about murdering a woman is threatening to kill him.