Michigan high school massacre

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Yesterday, Tuesday 30 November 2021, three students were killed and at least eight people were injuried after being shot during a high school massacre in Michigan. A 15 years old boy is suspected.

https://edition.cnn.com/us/live-news/oakland-county-michigan-high-school-shooting-11-30-21/h_92684175c7a045edd7d29fe2c8b54249

[Andrew NDB]

Used a handgun and not a scary black rifle so you won't hear about it much. Doesn't fit the narrative.

Have they revealed the killer's race? That they haven't yet makes me think it might be black. If not, then get ready for more "white supremacy" talk.

[Jester]

https://nypost.com/2021/12/01/michigan-school-shooting-suspect-identified-as-ethan-crumbley/
15 year old white kid.

[IndigoErth]

Heard about it plenty enough when I got home last night and this morning, so I don't know about that old "doesn't fit the narrative" shtick.

Also heard that daddy just bought him the gun last Friday. Oh yeah, his father must be feeling super great right now.

[Andrew NDB]

Heard about it plenty enough when I got home last night and this morning, so I don't know about that old "doesn't fit the narrative" shtick.

Oh, well let me explain. If there's a shooting... they'll report all about it (well, maybe while obfuscating certain details for the duration) for 2 or 3 days... then it's gone/onto the next thing. If there's a shooting and there's a rifle involved, now it's weeks and weeks of coverage about why there needs to be (more) gun control, etc.. We know this is what happens because this is always what happens.

Nowadays? Since it's a white kid and there will be stories coming out about how the dad was super irresponsible, white supremacy, etc., but not a whole lot of talk about gun control. Is my guess. So it's not that it doesn't fit the narrative, necessarily, it's that they need a little time to figure out what the narrative will be. In this case.

[Jester]

Also heard that daddy just bought him the gun last Friday. Oh yeah, his father must be feeling super great right now.
Yep, the Post article has pictures of him posting he new gun on Instagram

[frank_one]

[random "you Americans and your crazy obsession with guns" post from a peaceful and unarmed European dude]

[IMJ]

[random "you Americans and your crazy obsession with guns" post from a peaceful and unarmed European dude]

Yeah. Eh Don't go there, brother.

[mrmaczaps]

[random "you Americans and your crazy obsession with guns" post from a peaceful and unarmed European dude]

Stay in Europe easy pickings... we'll fight for our freedoms here.

[mrmaczaps]

Best part about this case, is once again, the school was made aware the kid had issues & apparently made some threats and guess what they did? Nothing. The Left LOVES dead children. Preborn & the born ones. You can have my guns when you pry them from my cold dead hands. The black supremacist in the suv killed more than this kid. Just the change of topic needed for the lunatic left. Congrats. 6

[IndigoErth]

Considering the details coming out now about troubling behavior in school, etc. it's dumbfounding that his father thought it just fine to get him a gun. Or let him anywhere near one. WT-actual-F.

I know no parent ever wants to dream that their child would ever have it in them to do such a thing and it may be temping to ignore any red flags, but come on. If they end up charged too, oh well, they likely deserve it if they ignored and neglected his mental health and enabled the deaths of other people's kids.

[Andrew NDB]

Obviously I'm a big gun advocate but while I certainly wouldn't see anything wrong with a parent showing a 15 year-old how to handle a firearm, even letting them shoot one in the woods or at the range... just saying, "Here's your pistol" and gifting them a handgun... no, that's screwed up. Especially a troubled kid in an age where white youths are being told everyday they're worthless and probably racist by the media and their teachers.

[IMJ]

Obviously I'm a big gun advocate but while I certainly wouldn't see anything wrong with a parent showing a 15 year-old how to handle a firearm, even letting them shoot one in the woods or at the range... just saying, "Here's your pistol" and gifting them a handgun... no, that's screwed up. Especially a troubled kid in an age where white youths are being told everyday they're worthless and probably racist.

On that note, isn't it strange how in other threads, the thread liberals will go on to excuse the crime by virtue of RAAAASSSSSS-Cism! or some other bent excuse, but here in a case like this no one will acknowledge the abuse this kid endured that made his cracked headmath pop into taking this action?

Now, I don't think that observation excuses the kid's actions - I have more intricate thoughts about the realities of that. But as usual I'm pointing out the hypocrisy and bull $#!( from this group's observers.

[Andrew NDB]

On that note, isn't it strange how in other threads, the thread liberals will go on to excuse the crime by virtue of RAAAASSSSSS-Cism! or some other bent excuse, but here in a case like this no one will acknowledge the abuse this kid endured that made his cracked headmath pop into taking this action?

I could be way off base but I think on some level there might be kind of an unspoken understanding by the leftist media: "Yo yo yo, people right of center... look, we'll make you a deal. You don't give us too much crap about our ignoring the... vehicle that ran over a bunch of people last week, and in return we won't make a big deal about this school shooting. We won't talk about white supremacy or gun control, this time around. You get a freebie."

Because their hands are a little tied, I think. As soon as they go, "See?!?! White supremacy in action!" about the school shooting, anyone could very easily go, "This is, but the black guy who TOLD us he was into black supremacy before running over a bunch of white people and children isn't? And number two, I notice you're not talking about it at all anymore?" And the black racist guy killed even MORE people than this school shooter did. It's too recent in the rearview of the school shooting for the school shooting to be viable for their usual narratives. They'll probably keep it in their pocket for two or three years and dust it off to lump it in with other shootings to help some terrible "common sense" cause along.

[frank_one]

Stay in Europe easy pickings... we'll fight for our freedoms here.Three poor young students were killed. Weird way to fight for your freedom. Teenagers shouldn't have access to guns, never. They are not ready.

[IndigoErth]

Three poor young students were killed.
Sadly a 4th died of his injuries yesterday.

[Bahamut810]

Three poor young students were killed. Weird way to fight for your freedom. Teenagers shouldn't have access to guns, never. They are not ready.

"Teenagers" should be taught respect for guns, not fear of them or to treat them as some sort of godly takers of life that will get their point across. Add Shooting to PE and let them learn to use the tool.

[mrmaczaps]

Three poor young students were killed. Weird way to fight for your freedom. Teenagers shouldn't have access to guns, never. They are not ready.

I've been around guns for 40 years, been bullied but still never shot anyone. The problem is not ours. Its liberals telling little white kids they're racist @ssholes simply for being white. Go pound sand.

[Andrew NDB]

I mean, it's true. You go back a few decades... there was literally gun clubs in junior high/high school in which you would fire guns and learn about gun safety. Even girls would join (https://blogs.davenportlibrary.com/sc/2016/03/03/aiming-for-success-davenport-high-school-girls-rifle-club/). Guess how many school shootings back then? Zero.

[IMJ]

I think the real problem as a catalyst for this issue is synergistic and combines some of the things said in this thread along with greater cultural issues that become distilled down to an individual level. Things like feelings of being trapped, or short sightedness that isn't tempered or met with the correlated wisdom from family, etc. Combine even just those two things with a relentlessly punishing peer group and you should be able to imagine the outcome. Things that certainly aren't going to be resolved or even appropriately identified by any singular position here.

I mean, look at this place as a marker of the entire paradigm..... the bull $#!( that's whipped around, people talking at people, other people literally making the most simple-minded of correlations and then standing by them as if they are religion, groups who can't be put in check because they bug up for low-self-esteem, people who can't be even talked to with intelligent backing because they resent the wisdom they don't have, and other guys literally driving conversation intentionally towards posters he/she would want to hear from in a synthetic online effort to disregard others (the online equivalent of standing around in a group and being the socially stunted f#$% who intentionally never looks AT someone they don't like in the same cohort)

Take much of the T-Drome's current posting cohort which is a reflection of the environments those kids are in. But now amplify it through childhood and in a school environment as if we were all face-to-face. And that's probably closer to the environment that fool kid with the gun was in. Except that gun-kid, rather than being a singular voice of reason and speaking through it, or standing his ground,; was instead more like-minded to the people picking on him and so brought a gun over experiences and fortitude to check the masses and would-be-relentless-bottom-feeders around him.

Again, the kid who did the shooting was a villain for sure. Absolutely a villain. But being the villain in action doesn't always yield the reasons for his villany. The truth is that it's the truly rotten evil people in society who catalyze these shooter-kids who might not have committed any such action otherwise in their lives.

And I CAN'T WAIT for the few Dromers to pour in who miss or disregard the nuance of what I've illustrated here specifically to combat what I've said in favor of their own bull $#!(. Please. Bring it.

[IndigoErth]

I've been around guns for 40 years, been bullied but still never shot anyone. The problem is not ours. Its liberals telling little white kids they're racist @ssholes simply for being white. Go pound sand.
No...the problem is raising kids in a world where they expect participation trophies, applause, attention, and benefits for just existing, and adults failing to teach them how to deal with effing life and its difficulties and disappointments and the right way to handle problems and feelings without deciding that someone needs to die for making them feel bad.

And that isn't at all a specifically "liberal" thing, because raising entitled brats is done by a percentage of parents of all political leanings. After all... here's a boy with Trump loving parents who apparently felt entitled to having daddy buy him a gun at 15 -- and not even make him wait until Christmas as a gift? -- and go on a premeditated shooting spree to end lives seemingly at random.

You keep throwing race in there when that hasn't even come up and, though I'm not sure about the 14-year-old, the other kids who died all look white, so... I mean, maybe aside from their major city, Michigan is otherwise a very white state and given its stats that school is too. (https://www.usnews.com/education/best-high-schools/michigan/districts/oxford-community-schools/oxford-high-school-10207) Maybe you need to go there and protest white-on-white violence. Because no, excusing a white kid for killing other white kids because meanie liberals allegedly, so claims you and the kinds of sources you pay attention to, tell him AND his victims that they're bad for being white... yeah, that isn't adding up. Again.


edit: Buying a gun that a parent intends to belong to their kid may not be a choice we can stop them from making, but I really feel that legally it should belong to the parent only, until the kid is an adult, and be required to be locked up and inaccessible to a minor who is only ever handling it with parental supervision. Not just hand it to a 15-year-old with total disregard for if he's going to toss it in his backpack and go kill people. And if a parent fails that badly on that front... charge the hell out of them.

[frank_one]

"Teenagers" should be taught respect for guns, not fear of them or to treat them as some sort of godly takers of life that will get their point across. Add Shooting to PE and let them learn to use the tool.What? Respect for... guns? For an object? What are you guys even talking about? We need to teach our kids respect for other people, not for guns. Man, that's why America is messed up.

[Andrew NDB]

What? Respect for... guns? For an object? What are you guys even talking about? We need to teach our kids respect for other people, not for guns. Man, that's why America is messed up.

I don't think he means "teach respect for guns" in some kind of revered way ("worship the gun!" or whatever). Because that's silly and somewhat troubling. I think he means it the way most people mean it when they say that, as in "to teach basic handling and operation and gun safety of guns, as well as an understanding of how dangerous they can be in the wrong or hands that aren't careful." And this is important for a lot of reasons, especially here in the U.S. where there is the constitutional right to bear arms. Raising kids to be scared of guns they never get to see in person or understand just creates a boogeyman out of guns and the people who bear them in their eyes. This breeds demonization of not just guns themselves but a majority of society here, ignorance, and very stupid talking points to say the least.

[Turo602]

What? Respect for... guns? For an object? What are you guys even talking about? We need to teach our kids respect for other people, not for guns. Man, that's why America is messed up.

What do you expect from a bunch of people who just heard children died in a school shooting and immediately made it about themselves and their agenda? They bitch about liberals while acting like them. It's like a f*cking episode of South Park in here.

[Mayhem]

I don't think he means "teach respect for guns" in some kind of revered way ("worship the gun!" or whatever). Because that's silly and somewhat troubling. I think he means it the way most people mean it when they say that, as in "to teach basic handling and operation and gun safety of guns, as well as an understanding of how dangerous they can be in the wrong or hands that aren't careful." And this is important for a lot of reasons, especially here in the U.S. where there is the constitutional right to bear arms. Raising kids to be scared of guns they never get to see in person or understand just creates a boogeyman out of guns and the people who bear them in their eyes. This breeds demonization of not just guns themselves but a majority of society here, ignorance, and very stupid talking points to say the least.
This. I fired guns when I was younger, a lot younger, yes that was possible in the UK and obviously curtailed a bit in the wake of shootings such as Dunblane and Hungerford. In a controlled environment, with qualified people instructing me, and teaching me to respect the gun because it can, and will harm you and others if you don't use it correctly.

On a secondary more minor note, you can also swap the word "alcohol" in here for "guns" and it would be the same, teaching kids responsible drinking at a younger age (here in the UK while you can't buy until you're 18 you can drink in the company of adults from 12, and the same applies to many other European countries) could mean them not trying to get older kids to buy for them, going completely nuts at college with drinking parties and so forth. Maybe.

[frank_one]

I don't think he means "teach respect for guns" in some kind of revered way ("worship the gun!" or whatever). Because that's silly and somewhat troubling.I hope you are right, you usually are. It just hit my brain that three kids died and the first thing that a person says is "we should teach our kids how to use guns" and not just "that's horrible and it keeps happening. We'd better not let kids use guns". Just that.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

What do you expect from a bunch of people who just heard children died in a school shooting and immediately made it about themselves and their agenda? They bitch about liberals while acting like them. It's like a f*cking episode of South Park in here.

This exactly. It's quite disheartening, but thats to be expected from this forum.

[IMJ]

Respect for guns means teaching that they are a tool for defense and protection of property and not an outlet for vengeance or other negative emotions. And in doing so, the teacher should be imparting the values of living and let live.

Hence "have respect for the gun" meaning in it's intended function in perseverance of life; on those merits rather than any other banal self-serving outlet.

[frank_one]

This exactly. It's quite disheartening, but thats to be expected from this forum.Nah, it's not this forum. This place is full of good people. It's our society (both in Europe and USA from what I see) that is constantly pushing us to take sides and to fight each other like we were in a big civil war. But we are not. :ohwell:

Respect for guns means teaching that they are a tool for defense and protection of property and not an outlet for vengeance or other negative emotions.Very good points, you've touched the main topics here. Weapons should only be used as a defence tool. Also, emotions and guns should never go together. Now, the big question: how you teach these stuff to a teenager? Teenager are known to be very bad at taking their emotions under control. Obviously, not all of them will go down the streets killing people whenever they have a bad day but few of them are more problematic and more inclined to an aggressive behavior under certain mental circumstances. Our society needs to prevent those ones from obtaining a gun. How? Are a couple of words of advice from a parent enough? I say schools and psychologists should be involved.

[Bahamut810]

"to teach basic handling and operation and gun safety of guns, as well as an understanding of how dangerous they can be in the wrong or hands that aren't careful."

This is exactly what I meant and had nothing to do with the deaths, specifically with the comment about "teenagers should never have guns." It may be the places I grew up and where I live now but "respect guns" round abouts means that.

Weapons should only be used as a defence tool.

And a hunting tool, and an entertainment tool for people who like target and skeet shooting. Guns have a lot of uses.

[Autbot_Benz]

They are searching for the parents who have been charged with involuntary manslaughter

The mom is a real piece of work

The day after Thanksgiving, he and his father had gone together to a Michigan gun shop to buy it. He and his mother spent a day testing out the gun, which was stored unlocked in the parents’ bedroom. On Monday, when a teacher reported seeing their son searching online for ammunition, his mother did not seem alarmed.

“LOL I’m not mad at you,” Jennifer Crumbley texted her son. “You have to learn not to get caught.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/03/us/crumbley-parents-charged-michigan-shooting.html

[Sumac]

I am surprised they didn't go to shot someone as a family unit.

[IndigoErth]

Wow, so they're going to hide out and make it worse for themselves.

“You have to learn not to get caught.”
Ohh... I see.


“My new beauty,” Ethan Crumbley, 15, called it.
What happened to the days when the thing most 15-year-olds wished to be able to say that of in the near future was a car...



On the morning of Tuesday’s shooting, the suspect’s parents were urgently called to Oxford High School after one of his teachers found an alarming note he had drawn, scrawled with images of a gun, a person who had been shot, a laughing emoji and the words “Blood everywhere” and “The thoughts won’t stop. Help me.”

School officials told the parents during the in-person meeting that they were required to seek counseling for their son, Ethan, Ms. McDonald said. The teenager’s parents did not want their son to be removed from school that day, and did not ask him whether he had the gun with him or search the backpack he brought with him to the office, Ms. McDonald said.

“The notion that a parent could read those words and also know their son had access to a deadly weapon, that they gave him, is unconscionable, and I think it’s criminal,” she said.

He was allowed back to class.


:(

The school is not to blame in what happened, but I feel like they should have put their foot down with the parents and refused to allow him to go back to class or remain in school that day. Nor to even return without a note from a psychiatrist.


edit: Some article I saw the other day mentioned he was active on YouTube as a young kid... a lot of it via posting videos playing Call of Duty.

Now I'm not one of those "video games cause all this" kind of people and MOST normal older teens and adults probably aren't going to get warped by that kind of game unless they already have mental issues, questionable or lack of understanding of right and wrong, and can't separate reality from fantasy. But I'm sorry, a child young enough to have a brain that's still developing in some fundamental ways has NO business playing games of that nature. Not when there are so many other awesome games that are far more appropriate for kids. If he was addicted to playing some game that role plays a theme of murdering people, I can see how that could help eff up the head of a young kid.

But I guess it's unsurprising with that particular set of parents... Sad.

[Leo656]

Every single time this happens, there's a million red flags out the ass which all screamed "This person is severely mentally-disturbed", along with the knee-jerk "Never MY son!" reaction from clueless parents.

We need to be a lot more proactive in hawking people who display obvious mental instability. We've gotten away from that because we don't want to be "judgmental" or make them feel like "outcasts", so we mostly just leave them alone. But "back in my day", any kids who acted "off" were well-known to school officials, watched closely and kept on a short leash. Most of them were in remedial groups for "troubled" kids and kept far away from everyone else, and most of those kids did in turn grow up to become career criminals who never integrated into society. BUT, as far as I know they never killed anyone else (although a couple of them did end up killing themselves).

A lot has been and continues to be said about whether that approach was "correct" or not, and whether all it did was make these "outcast" kids feel even more like outcasts by basically acknowledging to them, "Yes, you're 'worse' then the other kids, you don't fit in and never will, and we're keeping you away from them because we're concerned you're going to hurt someone, based on every single precedent of your behavior." Maybe the fact those kids all grew up to be drug dealers and criminals does in some way mean the system failed them.

OR, it could mean that everyone saw a rotten apple early on and kept it far away from the non-rotten apples so as to slow the spread of contamination. Because I don't care what anyone says, SOME people are just plain rotten from Day One. Whether that's genetics, bad upbringing, a head full of bad wiring, or some combination of all of it, some people were looked at like "lost causes" at a young age and were treated as such. And maybe that is mean. BUT. Again, none of those specific individuals ever killed anyone. A few got expelled for saying they'd thought about it, but never followed through. Never got the chance to. So perhaps "writing them off" and keeping them away from the kids who actually did have a future to look forward to wasn't the worst idea.

No easy answers. I just know that things like this never used to happen, and now they happen a lot. There's not more guns, so I look for other variables. Lack of basic respect for other people, definitely a ton of that now. Complete inability to cope with things not going your way, 100%. Dehumanizing or "un-personing" people for incredibly nebulous reasons, certainly. Failure to take notice or action towards clearly disturbed individuals because "We don't want to make them feel bad", for sure.

I just can't help but notice how EVERY single time this happens, it's always some kid who should've been expelled and in jail and/or counseling way before things ever got so far out of hand. People keep dropping the ball on that, and I can only assume it's out of "not wanting to treat them like they're bad kids". Except some of them definitely are, and should be treated as such BEFORE they get to do things like this. Who cares if they feel bad? They openly want to kill people, they SHOULD feel bad. Someone needs to do something to either rewire their brains so they can act right OR just get them out of civilized society before they hurt someone. But nobody does anymore.

[Andrew NDB]

The problem is that they don't want to label anyone with mental illness... they're just special and unique and their truth is different than your truth. And they're only into releasing everybody from jail/prison, not putting new people into it.

[Leo656]

And that's weird considering how even if it's "just" depression/anxiety, clinical studies in recent years have overwhelmingly proven that the vast majority of human beings struggle with some type of "mental illness" and that nobody is actually "wired right" in the first place. Some people are just better at coping/compartmentalizing. But essentially, everyone is "mentally ill" and therefore there's supposed to be LESS of a stigma around diagnosing and discussing it, not more of one.

Either way, one thing I know for a fact about mental illness is that trying to wish it away and/or circumvent it with positive reinforcement and ass-pats absolutely does not work. And by the time someone is even making comments or threats about acting out in a violent manner, it's already kind of too late.

[IMJ]

I'd like to point out something that.... I would bet most people here do not know, and bare minimum might have some inkling of but haven't put the concept into play here....

Kids go and do things when they are presented with new information. And in some ways, it's the same kind of behavior as office sheep who hear some fringe, opportunistic edict from their boss ("we should use this tool") and then for like three weeks the more bellicose employees broadcast and project ludicrously that thing that was presented to them as a "behavior" option.

There are other examples of this on the same spectrum of analytics - for example, studying psychology at some point along the way you'll hear about studies where people adopt traits that other people put onto them. Call someone a criminal enough times they oddly enough enact criminal behavior. Tell a kid that he scored high on the verbal/word component of his standardized testing and out of nowhere the kid begins to force bigger words into his conversation where he didn't before. All because he read a paragraph on a test and scored in the 90th percentile.

People are.... more like blank templates open to personal reinforcement than any one of us are probably comfortable enough to admit. And this especially true in, whether you like it or not, the mental midgets of society - groups of children, institutionalized people and low information people. An example here that everyone can identify with - even they don't admit it openly - in another thread here there was a conversation about whether or not a company was going to put TMNT weapons on connected weapon racks and from that the conversation went into an inordinate and borderline nonsensical use of the word "sprue". It was like a series of people trying the word out in any sentence they could, either to onboard with the group or because it was their personal proof that they understood the word.

My point?

That's a level of mentality at which these things happen in schools. Kid is picked on, kid is angry, kid has gun exposure, gun exposure is normalized, kid uses gun. It's like "karate". Nobody in their right mind has an honest "karate fight" - you just go in and combine street fighting with some moderate skill, that's the reality. But some kid in school gets into a fight by the bike rack, and the kid who goes to Karate on Wednesday's goes into karate form. It's front loaded as "the thing to do". But he gets his ass beat by some undisciplined punk kid who was out for blood and peer-power-status.

It's a spread of examples I've given here, but they are all the same spectrum. Go tell your fat kids that they are athletic and the next thing you'll see is them suddenly trying to do push-ups somewhere until their laziness or whatever it is brings them back into their previous patterns.

We invite this $#!( by not being good teachers.

[IndigoErth]

The problem is that they don't want to label anyone with mental illness...
I don't know about that, given the push in the past decade or so to try to destigmatize it and make it less taboo to discuss or get help and to an extent society does openly discuss it more than it used to.



While he has zero sympathy after what he did, because he damn well should know right from wrong, I do still feel for the kid he was before all this if had had terrible and uncontrollable compulsive thoughts and issues that no adults around him were willing to face and get him help for, even if he resisted.

At least the school did try to address it with his parents instead of suspending him. But to just leave him in class after that...

[Leo656]

The one mental illness nobody likes to acknowledge is Sociopathy. Because it clouds the "all people are inherently Good until some external force ruins them" narrative that some feel-good types try and push.

Problem is, Sociopaths exist and nobody still knows exactly Why. Cases can and have been made for both Nature and Nurture. In my experience, it's more Nature, although Nurture can certainly reinforce it. But the point is, Sociopathy exists, and Sociopaths exist, and you can't effectively "teach" empathy to a person who sincerely believes that their only responsibility in life is in indulging their own impulses and everyone else can be damned.

Like, if you've ever actually known a "real" one, Sociopaths are fascinating (and terrifying) people. Even in just having a conversation with one, it's amazing what you discover. But the whole "Only I matter, and how my actions affect other people is no concern of mine" bit always stands out super-hard. They simply don't have the mental capacity to understand why anything they do is "wrong"; in their minds, it got them what they wanted or just plain made them feel better in the moment, and that's all that matters, therefore it's the "right" thing to do.

It's hard to try and explain how people like that aren't "bad people". By definition, they are very bad people. BUT, admitting that not everyone is a decent human being runs very contrary to what we're being taught anymore, so on one hand it makes sense why you never hear anyone say "This person was just plain a sociopath" and instead try and pinpoint any one of a dozen other "reasons" why they do things. But sometimes it's just that simple. But you can't SAY that, because it skews the narrative.

I feel like if we collectively admitted that some people are plain Bad we could actually make more progress with this kind of thing. Instead we get hung up on "HOW could they do it?" and "HOW could they not even feel bad about it?" Well, there's very simple reasons How, actually, you just have to stop pretending that human nature is fundamentally decent. I'd argue that it isn't in general, but definitely not in many individual cases. Some people are plain rotten; pretending otherwise until it's too late does no one any favors.

[IndigoErth]

you just have to stop pretending that human nature is fundamentally decent. I'd argue that it isn't in general
Ehhh I dunno, if human nature was inherently bad as a majority, I doubt human society would come this far. Bad as people think it is now, I doubt we'd have gotten past living some barbaric, primitive life if it was normal human nature to totally disregard any needs and well being of others. Sure, some today want to watch the world burn, but still the majority wouldn't. I think the minority of nutcases who do are just simply louder and more, uh, demonstrative, for lack of a better word, in their making a mess of things.

[Autbot_Benz]

Kendall Keys
@KendallKeysTV
·
31m
Oakland County Undersheriff tells TV5 Detroit Police Department arrested both Jennifer and James Crumbley, parents of the Oxford High School shooting suspect.

https://twitter.com/KendallKeysTV/status/1467025938844168193

[Andrew NDB]

Kendall Keys
@KendallKeysTV
·
31m
Oakland County Undersheriff tells TV5 Detroit Police Department arrested both Jennifer and James Crumbley, parents of the Oxford High School shooting suspect.

https://twitter.com/KendallKeysTV/status/1467025938844168193

Yeah... given latest stuff. These seem like total sh**bags. Going back a page or so, when we say "people should respect a/the gun"? They did the opposite for a kid they apparently made very troubled.

[IndigoErth]

They are not making this easy for their attorney who kept trying to insist they'd been making arrangements for them to turn thslemves in. (As if that's even any special process.) Meanwhile they'd withdrawn a few thousand dollars and hid in the basement of some commercial building... Oh yeah, that doesn't sound at all like they were trying to run. Nope. No way.

[Hamato Yoshi]

"been bullied but still never shot anyone"

Sorry but that does not justify bullying just cuz YOU could handle it , its like those that put blame on fans for buying fake autographs when it is the forgers that are to blame and cops for not doing anything to stop it. They try to paint the collector that has been had as the bad one and put the blame on him instead of the forger.

Usually terrorists try to hide as much as possible , blend in : "i never wouldve guessed he could do something evil like that , he was my next door neighbour and lived a normal life" , hear anecdotes like that all the time......

[Turo602]

"been bullied but still never shot anyone"

Sorry but that does not justify bullying just cuz YOU could handle it , its like those that put blame on fans for buying fake autographs when it is the forgers that are to blame and cops for not doing anything to stop it. They try to paint the collector that has been had as the bad one and put the blame on him instead of the forger.

Usually terrorists try to hide as much as possible , blend in : "i never wouldve guessed he could do something evil like that , he was my next door neighbour and lived a normal life" , hear anecdotes like that all the time......

It's not about justifying bullying. It's about holding people accountable for their own actions. Blaming anyone but the shooter is no different than saying video games cause violence despite many people having played video games and not doing violent or horrendous sh*t.

[IndigoErth]

People who bully others are equally awful wastes of oxygen for their own reasons. Murdering them however is not the answer to dealing with them and adults need to stop failing to teach these kids how to handle it or seek out an adult. Though this kid sounds like he had some screws loose to begin with, not just some fed up loser who didn't know how to deal with a mean classmate. Anyone who wants to pick on that kind of psycho just because he may come across weird... well, good luck with that.


The defense also argued in court Saturday morning that the suspect was not given access to a gun.

"That gun was actually locked," the Crumbleys' co-counsel, Mariell Lehman, said in court. "So when the prosecution is stating that this child had free access to a gun, that is just absolutely not true."
Wait... what? What kind of mental gymnastics is that. Was the shooting just "fake news" and didn't happen? Or it just somehow happened by magic?

[Coola Yagami]

People who bully others are equally awful wastes of oxygen for their own reasons. Murdering them however is not the answer to dealing with them and adults need to stop failing to teach these kids how to handle it or seek out an adult. Though this kid sounds like he had some screws loose to begin with, not just some fed up loser who didn't know how to deal with a mean classmate. Anyone who wants to pick on that kind of psycho just because he may come across weird... well, good luck with that.



Wait... what? What kind of mental gymnastics is that. Was the shooting just "fake news" and didn't happen? Or it just somehow happened by magic?

We're gonna get to the point where instead of guns kill people, it's gonna be bullets kill people.

[IndigoErth]

What can I say... people, metal/emotional problems, parents and adults who fail youths, people who ignore warning signs, guns, bullets, a society that is too casual about it and willing to just shrug off each new mass shooting, willing to give guns to people who can't be trusted... they're all factors that play a part.

[Coola Yagami]

What can I say... people, metal/emotional problems, parents and adults who fail youths, people who ignore warning signs, guns, bullets, a society that is too casual about it and willing to just shrug off each new mass shooting, willing to give guns to people who can't be trusted... they're all factors that play a part.

That and this weird new woke leftist refusal to treat mental illness for what it is and not try to ignore because 'you night offend the person's.

[IndigoErth]

I've never seen anyone trying to normalize mental illness, "leftist" or otherwise. Where are you guys getting this from?

[Coola Yagami]

I've never seen anyone trying to normalize mental illness, "leftist" or otherwise. Where are you guys getting this from?

The fact every time some school shooter with an obvious mental illness is taken out, the woke leftist mob crawls out of the woodwork to dogpile you if you mention the person has a mental illness with 'how dare you, don't shame people with actual mental illnesses bro'.

They refuse to paint the mentally ill in a negative light despite the fact these shooter guys definitely have a few screws loose.

[IndigoErth]

Hm, still have never seen nor herd of that. Must be some fringe I have paid zero attention to.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

I thought we had finally left it behind, but here we go again. No school massacre without the mandatory video game discussion.

https://www.thegamer.com/michigan-shooting-video-games-fallout-4-inside-edition/

https://inews.co.uk/news/world/michigan-school-shooting-shooter-suspect-ethan-crumbley-drawings-video-games-1337254

[IndigoErth]

An article I saw the other day pointed out that he'd been active on YouTube as a young kid, mostly posting videos of him playing Call of Duty. They had a video linked (and later was no longer available when I looked at the article again) and though I did not watch it, the thumb nail image on it... he looked like he must have been maybe around age 8, give or take, far too young for that sort of game. The games aren't to blame, the adults who allow kids to play things far too old for them are. And allowing games with a theme based on killing when kid's brains are still developing in fundamental ways...? Yeah, not good. Again, I don't blame the games, but the exposure to it too young could certainly have potential to be one factor if it got him addicted to those topics and imagery from a young age.

[Leo656]

Hm, still have never seen nor herd of that. Must be some fringe I have paid zero attention to.

It happens in literally every single case where something like this happens. Everyone - including the family of the perp - tries to shift away from the mental illness issue and pivot to music, video games, and TV.

They always try and make the whole "this person was mentally unwell" variable the LEAST important part of the puzzle, when in fact it's the MOST important. But as Coola pointed out, it's a thing we are "not supposed to talk about" because it stigmatizes individuals with mental illness. Even though it's... y'know, KIND of important.

Like I forget which one, but a few mass shootings ago it came out that the shooter in one of the incidents had been diagnosed with Bipolar Disorder and was off his meds and having episodes. And right away, there were articles pouring out about "Let's not make this about Bipolar Disorder! Let's not start saying THAT'S why he did what he did! Not all of us are crazy!"

And like... okay, *I* have Bipolar Disorder. And no, in and of itself, it doesn't make you want to snap and shoot a bunch of people. Does it kind of... "nudge" you there, in some really bad times? It absolutely CAN, yeah. So to come out and say, "Let's not say that this happened because the shooter had a mental condition" is disingenuous. That IS, ultimately, a big reason for Why. Not the one and only reason, and the vast majority of people who have BD do NOT become murderous. But at the same time, to say "Well *I* have BD and to assume that we're all murderous nutjobs is harmful!" is like... okay, Understood. But we MUST be realistic about all the data and consider every variable. If a person has a mental condition, then that MUST be treated as a fundamental root cause of any outburst, way before any external stimuli. That's simply common sense.

But now, there's "advocates" and lobbyists for the mentally ill just like everything else. And you can't just call crazy people "crazy people" anymore, not even when they hurt someone. "Because it makes other crazy people feel bad." And while no, it's not fair to paint everyone with a mental illness with the same brush, to just plain ignore situations where there were tons of Red Flags until something bad inevitably happens is... well, crazy.

Anyways, yeah. We're not supposed to blame the mental problems, we're supposed to blame video games and stuff. It's been that way since at LEAST Columbine.

"Call of Duty" has sold like 100 million copies and like six people who played it ever went on to kill anyone, so... it's probably not the video games. BUT, we don't actually look for the real root causes of anything anymore, because Truths are inconvenient to the narrative. So we just scapegoat and finger-point, because it's easier.

I personally think we're collectively reaping what we've sown by poisoning our gene pool by getting every kid hooked on ADHD meds back in the 90s. Now half of THEIR kids are crazy and the other half are autistic. We probably should've seen it coming, but hey, giving kids pills to shut up and sit still seemed like a great idea at the time. I guess they never expected it might, y'know... screw people up going forward. Funny how that works.

[Zulithe]

Stupid careless parents. We will be learning more about what motivated the kid and what all lead up to him deciding to do this. But at the end of the day, the parents enabled this with their very lax attitude. The text conversations alone reveal a ton about where their heads are at, they don't take the danger of giving their son access to guns seriously, and it should be taken VERY seriously.

I was raised on a farm in rural middle america. My parents had me shooting guns (under proper supervision and with utmost safety in mind) at a very young age. I'm not against using guns or even teaching kids to use guns. But have some ****ing awareness of what is going on in your own family... there were a lot of warning signs here and they made some really poor decisions on how to act on them.

[joe-eyeball]

Stupid careless parents. We will be learning more about what motivated the kid and what all lead up to him deciding to do this. But at the end of the day, the parents enabled this with their very lax attitude. The text conversations alone reveal a ton about where their heads are at, they don't take the danger of giving their son access to guns seriously, and it should be taken VERY seriously.

I was raised on a farm in rural middle america. My parents had me shooting guns (under proper supervision and with utmost safety in mind) at a very young age. I'm not against using guns or even teaching kids to use guns. But have some ****ing awareness of what is going on in your own family... there were a lot of warning signs here and they made some really poor decisions on how to act on them.

Exactly! Same here. I was shooting at 5 years old and learned how to properly use and care and store firearms. I’ve been around them my whole life and there has never been a mishap of any kind. I’m also not ignorant or arrogant enough to believe that even with all the necessary experience in the world that something can’t go wrong! That’s why even if it’s redundant always follow the gun golden rules of safety and the risk of a tragedy is almost zero! These parents are irresponsible scumbags that likely raised a sicko!!!

[mrmaczaps]

If you teach your kids to be responsible with firearms, they don't need to be locked up... they're of no use during a home invasion if they're locked up.

I have *checks pockets* two firearms on my person right this moment and a shotgun sitting next to my chair. Do I need immediate access like that? Probably not, my front door is locked. But I don't expect my house to burn down either and there are 3 or 4 fire extinguishers in the house & a dozen or so fire alarms that only go off when someone cooks.

[joe-eyeball]

Hm, still have never seen nor herd of that. Must be some fringe I have paid zero attention to.

Yeah the media, politicians, celebrities, the education system have all been trying to “normalize” mental illness. They just call it something else such as de-stigmatize. I’ve read numerous articles and have read on various sites regarding mental health that roughly 7 or 8 out of ten people suffer from some level of mental illness. I 100% completely believe this. I mean how do you even determine what a baseline for perfect mental health is? Most people suffer breakdowns, depression, periods of mania and what have you but most people also have developed coping mechanisms throughout life that help alleviate our suffering. It’s a noble cause to want to “de-stigmatize” mental illness and be inclusive so nobody is made to feel like a social outcast but we need to be realistic in that trying to treat everyone under one banner is great right up until the point it isn’t! We need to accept as a society that some of us don’t have the necessary tools to cope and need to be placed elsewhere. We can’t throw everyone in same box and force it to work. Life isn’t always easy and sometimes tough and even cold decisions need to be made. We must stop ignoring the warning signs and talk about dangers of almost “enabling” certain people and their mental illnesses and do something about it. The problem is that nobody is interested in doing what really needs to be done! The work is controversial, difficult, and in some cases goes against everything a compassionate human being is supposed to be. Bottom line is there a people in our world that quite simply aren’t capable of being a part of it and they should be dealt with with haste!

[IndigoErth]

I have *checks pockets* two firearms on my person right this moment and a shotgun sitting next to my chair.
You live in a dangerous area or something?

[Andrew NDB]

You live in a dangerous area or something?

You know, you don't until you do.

[IMJ]

I have *checks pockets* two firearms on my person right this moment and a shotgun sitting next to my chair.

That seems a little.... awkward interior home setup, bro. :D

I have a fully tactical, professional Remington gripped in Magpul and fitted with a breaching barrel, but it isn't just sitting next to me in the office, you know? :lol:

[IndigoErth]

*shrug* I could also go around wearing a life vest all the time because it might flood, even if the likelihood of it is just as small because I live up hill, but you never know, an asteroid the size of Ohio could hit the ocean, cause an unimaginable tsunami and inundate most of the continent with ocean water.

[Andrew NDB]

*shrug* I could also go around wearing a life vest all the time because it might flood, even if the likelihood of it is just as small because I live up hill

As long as you had the right to get a life vest the whole time and chose not to, I would respect that decision.

[IndigoErth]

The problem is that they don't want to label anyone with mental illness... they're just special and unique and their truth is different than your truth.
Like paranoia that leads to 24/7 life vest wearing? Or... other things that sound like likewise overdoing it.

[Andrew NDB]

Like paranoia that leads to 24/7 life vest wearing?

That's not really the point.

[mrmaczaps]

You live in a dangerous area or something?

A democrat controlled city in a democrat controlled state is dangerous enough.

[mrmaczaps]

That seems a little.... awkward interior home setup, bro. :D

I have a fully tactical, professional Remington gripped in Magpul and fitted with a breaching barrel, but it isn't just sitting next to me in the office, you know? :lol:

Be prepared, motto of the Boy Scouts... *shrug*.

If they're all in my room, down the hallway, they won't do me any good if someone were to kick the door down, right?

My bulletproof vest is setting on the other side of my end table too. Case I have to go into the hood.

[Coola Yagami]

A democrat controlled city in a democrat controlled state is dangerous enough.

I know. You can't go five steps without getting cancelled for accidentally misgendering someone.

[IMJ]

As long as you had the right to get a life vest the whole time and chose not to, I would respect that decision.

No no. You wouldn't respect it, but you would live and let live.

[joe-eyeball]

Like paranoia that leads to 24/7 life vest wearing? Or... other things that sound like likewise overdoing it.

I’m glad you brought up paranoia. I assume you believe anyone that carries a firearm on their person must be paranoid that worst is going to happen at anytime or anywhere? It’s certainly possible even if unlikely. So what’s the harm in a person that has not done anything wrong from carrying a gun? How about the “paranoia” of the people who claim you’ll never need a gun to get yourself out of trouble but couldn’t I say to them that they would be equally unlikely to ever be harmed by a gun? Who’s paranoia wins out in the end? I’d say we are better off sticking with the side that has the Constitution on their side.

[mrmaczaps]

I know. You can't go five steps without getting cancelled for accidentally misgendering someone.

Not quite that bad here yet... but we have a city council member who basically had people threaten to kill her opponents family unless they dropped out of the running, that other person tried to fight it and was called all the -isms in the book and ended up dropping out.... And the terrorists is still holding that Office. So, sooner or later that burning down the Wendy's over a dead criminal is coming...

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

An article I saw the other day pointed out that he'd been active on YouTube as a young kid, mostly posting videos of him playing Call of Duty. They had a video linked (and later was no longer available when I looked at the article again) and though I did not watch it, the thumb nail image on it... he looked like he must have been maybe around age 8, give or take, far too young for that sort of game. The games aren't to blame, the adults who allow kids to play things far too old for them are. And allowing games with a theme based on killing when kid's brains are still developing in fundamental ways...? Yeah, not good. Again, I don't blame the games, but the exposure to it too young could certainly have potential to be one factor if it got him addicted to those topics and imagery from a young age.

The funny thing is: There was a time in the 1970's, 80's and early 90's when young children could play the most violent war video games. The graphics were less realistic, and the characters looked like in comics and cartoons. Spending the evening fighting a war in the living room provided a lot of fun.

MSuVObFusDU

I believe there are more serious problems to blame for violence than media. Like alcoholism, drug abuse, child abuse, dysfunctional families, divorces or politicial and religious extremism. But it is easier for a politician to just blame it on the video games.

[IndigoErth]

Even so, still a massive gap between war themed games of that era and stupid adults allowing children to play modern games that try to offer realistic simulations... >.<

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Be prepared, motto of the Boy Scouts... *shrug*.

If they're all in my room, down the hallway, they won't do me any good if someone were to kick the door down, right?

My bulletproof vest is setting on the other side of my end table too. Case I have to go into the hood.


That is NOT what the Boy Scout motto means! It's about preparedness for life situations and skills like wilderness survival or building or fixing things, not thinking like you're in an action movie 24-7. So which MacManus brother are you, Connor or Murphy?

[Bahamut810]

That is NOT what the Boy Scout motto means! It's about preparedness for life situations and skills like wilderness survival or building or fixing things, not thinking like you're in an action movie 24-7. So which MacManus brother are you, Connor or Murphy?

I have never been a boy scout, but do they really not consider preparing to defend yourself under the umbrella of being prepared?

[mrmaczaps]

That is NOT what the Boy Scout motto means! It's about preparedness for life situations and skills like wilderness survival or building or fixing things, not thinking like you're in an action movie 24-7. So which MacManus brother are you, Connor or Murphy?

Be prepared means for any life event. Big or small. "Reasonable" to you or otherwise. Plus they used to teach some some defense. I don't much expect anything useful out of the group these days though.

They used to teach firearm safety, first with bb guns & then with .22s. Not a d@mn thing wrong with always carrying a firearm. I also always carry a pocket knife. I also always carry a credit card for emergency use only. And my wallet & keys. Sometimes I don't carry a cell phone. I don't need to be tracked by the feds. :tlol: I used to carry strike anywhere matches or a lighter too but I needed room for the pocket 380. :tlol: Some people always carry mace for self protection. If you leave that stuff home & something does happen, what use it is? The day 4 young tall criminals approached me & tried to smash & grab my car, I was certainly glad to be packing. I wouldn't have been able to outrun them or fight 4 on 1 otherwise.

If you don't want to carry, I fully support you in that. Not my problem. Just don't come back crying & wanting sympathy if/when something bad happens to you that you could have prevented potentially had you had some training & been packing heat.

[The Deadman]

The fact every time some school shooter with an obvious mental illness is taken out, the woke leftist mob crawls out of the woodwork to dogpile you if you mention the person has a mental illness with 'how dare you, don't shame people with actual mental illnesses bro'.

They refuse to paint the mentally ill in a negative light despite the fact these shooter guys definitely have a few screws loose.

No, if the shooter happens to be white, it's domestic terrorism and mental illness is no longer considered.

[IMJ]

If you don't want to carry, I fully support you in that. Not my problem. Just don't come back crying & wanting sympathy if/when something bad happens to you that you could have prevented potentially had you had some training & been packing heat.

Probably more relevantly stated to say "if you don't want to carry, I fully support you in that. Just don't come back and trample on my rights to carry ever."

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Be prepared means for any life event. Big or small. "Reasonable" to you or otherwise. Plus they used to teach some some defense. I don't much expect anything useful out of the group these days though.

They used to teach firearm safety, first with bb guns & then with .22s. Not a d@mn thing wrong with always carrying a firearm. I also always carry a pocket knife. I also always carry a credit card for emergency use only. And my wallet & keys. Sometimes I don't carry a cell phone. I don't need to be tracked by the feds. :tlol: I used to carry strike anywhere matches or a lighter too but I needed room for the pocket 380. :tlol: Some people always carry mace for self protection. If you leave that stuff home & something does happen, what use it is? The day 4 young tall criminals approached me & tried to smash & grab my car, I was certainly glad to be packing. I wouldn't have been able to outrun them or fight 4 on 1 otherwise.

If you don't want to carry, I fully support you in that. Not my problem. Just don't come back crying & wanting sympathy if/when something bad happens to you that you could have prevented potentially had you had some training & been packing heat.


You know d@mned well what I meant. Basic firearm safety, sure, but not the kind of paranoid overreacting "packing heat" 24-7 that YOU described yourself as doing. You seem to have confused the two. So which one are you? You never answered the question. Or maybe you're Rocco? Yeah, that sounds about right.

I mean, if you want to treat life like some kind of gangland action movie where everybody is out to get you, that's your business, but it's a sad, stressful, unhealthy way to "live". I carry ONE knife and a metal bar on me in my backpack to and from work, I have a pair of sais in the bedroom, and that's pretty much it. I'd rather enjoy living than worry constantly if something bad is going to happen on the way to work or coming home- and I WALK all over town. No car to get jacked, nothing valuable enough to worry about getting robbed for, and honestly, don't care that much if someone wants to make the futile effort to try. They'd get bupkiss for their trouble. And why should I cry over anyone trying to attack me or rob my home? If they came after me, I already know what my response would be, because I've already BEEN through that- lived through an abusive step-parent with a violent temper, in fact, and you know what? I'm still here, and he's had his nuts cracked MORE than once! I can take care of myself, gun or no gun. Same with the idiot who tried to raid the register while I was working overnight at a gas station convenience store years ago. He got clobbered with a shovel handle for his efforts.

[IMJ]

You know d@mned well what I meant.

Says one of the forum queens of disingenuous, defensive gaslighting. :lol:

:roll:

[IndigoErth]

If they came after me, I already know what my response would be, because I've already BEEN through that- lived through an abusive step-parent with a violent temper, in fact, and you know what? I'm still here, and he's had his nuts cracked MORE than once! I can take care of myself, gun or no gun. Same with the idiot who tried to raid the register while I was working overnight at a gas station convenience store years ago. He got clobbered with a shovel handle for his efforts.
Dibs on having Duckie in my team when the zombie apocalypse comes.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Says one of the forum queens of disingenuous, defensive gaslighting. :lol:

:roll:


You got that backwards, sport. You haven't looked in a mirror in a while, have you? Forget what you look like again, did you?

[IMJ]

You got that backwards, sport. You haven't looked in a mirror in a while, have you? Forget what you look like again, did you?

:lol::lol::lol:

Yeah yeah. Okay okay. :roll:

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Probably as close to an apology as I'll ever get, but I'll take it, I guess. Even if it's still full of snide vitriolic double speak.