Dragon Ball Super: Super Hero

[neatoman]

I can't believe there wasn't a thread for this upcoming movie.

The details we know is that it is a CGI movie that emulates the appearance of cel animation. The plot appears to be a loose sequel to the Android and Red Ribbon arcs. It appears to be set shortly before the Manga's ending.
Oh and yeah, the title really is "Dragon Ball Super: Super Hero". Not "Dragon Ball Super: Hero" or "Dragon Ball: Super Hero", it does indeed use the word "Super" twice in a row...

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[CyberCubed]

Thank goodness Gohan has a big role and Goku/Vegeta are pushed to the side. The two manga arcs going since the Super anime ended is all Goku/Vegeta again and it's stale as hell. I have no idea why Super thought it was a good idea to push the entire cast to the sidelines but two characters, there's no further place to take Goku/Vegeta's dynamic since its been done for years.

[Coola Yagami]

Kinda looks like the movie will mostly feature Gohan, Piccolo and Pan while Goku and Vegeta are training with Broly elsewhere, out of the main plot.

This is very interesting, I really, REALLY hope they don't blow it near the end and have Goku appear last minute to end things. The advantage of the Android arc is it made the Red Ribbon into everybody's problem, it's no longer Goku's personal problem.

I managed to hear jinzouningen among all the Japanese which means artificial humans, so I'm wondering if these superhero Red Ribbon guys are androids.

[oldmanwinters]

I'm impressed that the trailer made me forget the movie uses primarily 3D-rendered models. That shot of Piccolo really looks like classic cel (CELL?) animation, as well as when Gohan "locks horns" with the villain.

Big fan of the Red Ribbon aesthetic too. It would make sense if Gohan and Pan get are the protagonists, but I've seen enough DBZ movies to know that we should all assume Goku will have to show up and pull off something crazy to actually save the day.

[sdp]

Looks like a cel shaded videogame. granted I prefer this style a lot more than current CG, especially the pixar look which everyone rips off. If we aren't getting 2D animation because it's expensive I'd rather get this.

As far as story, I'm glad it's called Super Super Heroes, it's ridiculous as Dragon ball is and dragon ball Z had become a parody with Super so it might as well embrace the sillier aspects of the franchise's origin though I'm sure it'll be hated by DBZ purists whose first Dragon Ball was Z.

[CyberCubed]

Too bad I got permabanned from Kazenshuu for saying Majin Vegeta was in the right to kill all the humans at the Budokai tournament in the early Boo saga, since he was in the knowledge they'd all be wished back to life with the Dragon Balls after. They permabanned me because I said fictional humans in the Dragon Ball world being killed was no big deal.

lol

[neatoman]

Too bad I got permabanned from Kazenshuu for saying Majin Vegeta was in the right to kill all the humans at the Budokai tournament in the early Boo saga, since he was in the knowledge they'd all be wished back to life with the Dragon Balls after. They permabanned me because I said fictional humans in the Dragon Ball world being killed was no big deal.

lol

Uh... What the hell was your actual argument there?

It's kind of hard to come up with a real world comparison to bringing people back from the dead but... Let's say I destroy you cellphone, just because you can get a new one and get back everything you had on it with an online backup, if I just did it out spite you can't really say I was "right" for doing so even if it's not technically a big deal.

His motive for killing those people was just to piss of Goku so he could fight him to the death, there was no real justification to it. Even though they could be brought back it was still an evil thing to do. And of course it's not a big deal if fictional characters are murdered but it's still clearly an act of evil in the story.

[Coola Yagami]

Uh... What the hell was your actual argument there?

It's kind of hard to come up with a real world comparison to bringing people back from the dead but... Let's say I destroy you cellphone, just because you can get a new one and get back everything you had on it with an online backup, if I just did it out spite you can't really say I was "right" for doing so even if it's not technically a big deal.

His motive for killing those people was just to piss of Goku so he could fight him to the death, there was no real justification to it. Even though they could be brought back it was still an evil thing to do. And of course it's not a big deal if fictional characters are murdered but it's still clearly an act of evil in the story.

Still a stupid reason to get banned.

I used to post there every now and then but as usual politics and wokeness devours everything. It's now a woke leftist nightmare over there. It sucks but even the Gamefaqs and especially the He-Man.org forums are hit hard by this.

IMO Gamefaqs was a better place when all the forums were game and possibly anime related. All the other personal junk has no place on a videogame forum. Then they hijack the Playstation forums with their political and 'all unxaxed deserve to die' nonsense. You can actually get banned there for saying 'no they don't'.

[CyberCubed]

Getting banned because you say it doesn't matter that Vegeta killed a bunch of fictional humans that would get revived with the Dragon Balls only less than 10 eps later is ridiculous. It's a fictional TV series, the people there were acting like if you agree with what Majin Vegeta did, they were comparing it to Hitler or Nazi's or whatever.

LMAO.

[sdp]

Weird how this video game doesn't look THAT much different from this movie, I hope that the movie at the very least popularizes this, I also hope we get more cel shaded games, they're beautiful

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[Coola Yagami]

That's the first thing I thought when I saw the trailers. It looked a lot like the cut scenes in both DBZ Kakarot and Dragonball FighterZ.

[The Terror of Death]

I'm guessing the plot is the new red ribbon army committing acts of terrorism and using fake footage, lookalikes or a wish from the dragon balls to make it seem like the z warriors are the ones responsible. The android duo are presented as the heroes who can stop them and the two start hunting them down. They eventually find Piccolo who is training Pan. They defeat him and Pan gets caught in the crossfire. Goku and Vegeta are off world training with Broly so it's up to Gohan to stop them.

A few things I'm wondering though. With the theme being superheroes why is Gohan wearing his cell games clothes instead of his Great Saiyaman outfit? Will they bother explaining how the new red ribbon army have the technology to create androids the same strength as the post Universal Survival Z warriors? Also, will there be anything that contradicts the end of z or the current manga arcs?

[CyberCubed]

Gohan probably couldn't find his orange gi again, the same thing they did in Movie 15 where he was wearing his green tracksuit because he couldn't find his fighting outfit.

[neatoman]

Gohan probably couldn't find his orange gi again, the same thing they did in Movie 15 where he was wearing his green tracksuit because he couldn't find his fighting outfit.

He reverted back to the Namekian style gi in the manga for the tournament and he kept during the Moro arc as well. So I'm guessing they want to keep in continuity with that, maybe? I know he used the orange one in the anime but the Moro arc hasn't been adapted yet and... Well, it's not like the anime hasn't ignored it's own version of events if they conflicted with the manga before...

https://images-cdn.9gag.com/photo/aV3MOMy_700b.jpg


https://media.comicbook.com/2020/02/0056-022-1205350.jpeg?auto=webp&width=650&height=975&crop=650:975,smart

[Coola Yagami]

I guess it all depends. The Moro arc mentioned they met Broly after the Tournament of Power. They might throw in a line or two referring to the events of this movie somewhere after the Granola saga ends.

[The Terror of Death]

He reverted back to the Namekian style gi in the manga for the tournament and he kept during the Moro arc as well. So I'm guessing they want to keep in continuity with that, maybe? I know he used the orange one in the anime but the Moro arc hasn't been adapted yet and... Well, it's not like the anime hasn't ignored it's own version of events if they conflicted with the manga before...

I forgot about that. Toriyama apparently has more involvement with this than even the last three films, so it's possible he prefers the manga look.

Red Ribbon Army casting news and descriptions:

https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2021-12-22/dragon-ball-super-super-hero-film-casts-more-of-red-ribbon-army/.180894

[Coola Yagami]

I forgot about that. Toriyama apparently has more involvement with this than even the last three films, so it's possible he prefers the manga look.

Red Ribbon Army casting news and descriptions:

https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2021-12-22/dragon-ball-super-super-hero-film-casts-more-of-red-ribbon-army/.180894

Interesting, so the 'kid' is actually an adult, but just very short. Might be related to Commander Red somewhere? Maybe not a son but a cousin or whatever?

[oldmanwinters]

On account of the recent Toei hack (https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2022-03-18/dragon-ball-super-super-hero-film-delayed-due-to-toei-animation-hack/.183750), the movie's April release has been "cancelled." It's unknown how severe the hack was, but it's at least possible they lost the data for the movie:
ZAYi3A_LLcE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAYi3A_LLcE

[neatoman]

On account of the recent Toei hack (https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2022-03-18/dragon-ball-super-super-hero-film-delayed-due-to-toei-animation-hack/.183750), the movie's April release has been "cancelled." It's unknown how severe the hack was, but it's at least possible they lost the data for the movie:
ZAYi3A_LLcE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAYi3A_LLcE

Well that sucks but I don't understand how they would "lose" the movie? Surely they have back-ups and it seems more likely the hacker would leak the movie rather than destroy it.

[CyberCubed]

How on earth can they "lose" a movie, especially in today's digital age?

Either way they still have the scripts, maybe they can re-do the movie in traditional animation now like the Broly movie like everyone wanted instead of using CG. :lol:

[neatoman]

So there is a leak that I assumed was fake because it looked and sounded fake but given something that just happened in the manga, I am willing to say it's somewhat more likely to be real:
https://i.ibb.co/Ss9wx7V/1649004032142.jpg

[Coola Yagami]

I don't know. I mean considering the rumors that Cell might or might not return, bringing that other person into this will just too many cooks in the kitchen. Like it's not a 3 hour movie or anything.

[Vegita-San]

I don't know. I mean considering the rumors that Cell might or might not return, bringing that other person into this will just too many cooks in the kitchen. Like it's not a 3 hour movie or anything.

there was a new villain in the manga that was like cell, only he could take over the 'soul ' of entire planets and actually become the earth.

cell would be redundant after that.

That image looks like vegita, but has the hair of a certain someone else

[CyberCubed]

It's a corpse they likely used it to power up the new android villains.

[Coola Yagami]

It's a corpse they likely used it to power up the new android villains.

If that was true, Gamma 1 and 2 would be weak as ****.

[neatoman]

The movie debuted in Japan and I have seen a tiny bit of footage.
Cell or a clone of Cell is in the movie. He looks like the second form except red and with a ball at the end of his tail.

[Coola Yagami]

The movie debuted in Japan and I have seen a tiny bit of footage.
Cell or a clone of Cell is in the movie. He looks like the second form except red and with a ball at the end of his tail.

Hmmm interesting. I was wondering if it was true or not because it seemed every other DBZ Youtuber kept posting these fake clickbait images of what they'd assume what this character would look like in this movie.

[Coola Yagami]

Just saw it, through certain means. Lots of fun, pretty much a Piccolo movie, with Pan and Gohan, but mostly a Piccolo movie.

There are some things I absolutely need subtitles to understand the long bits of conversation.

They sure had fun drawing Bulma's butt though, lol. There's even a scene with her bent over butt covering 95% of the screen as she's looking for something.

[CyberCubed]

Bulma looks old in the last 3 episodes of DBZ so I guess that's being retconned given she's been wishing herself to look younger.

[Coola Yagami]

Bulma looks old in the last 3 episodes of DBZ so I guess that's being retconned given she's been wishing herself to look younger.

Just the fact that Bulma chews Goku out that he hasn't come to visit since the defeat of Majin Buu is retconned. They obviously have been seeing each other a lot during all of Super.

[superstaff]

Just the fact that Bulma chews Goku out that he hasn't come to visit since the defeat of Majin Buu is retconned. They obviously have been seeing each other a lot during all of Super.

I can't see the Briefs and Son families ever drifting apart. That's one of the things I disliked about GT's ending. Same goes for Krillin's family associating with them (though I think in GT they don't say Krillin and Goku's families stop seeing each other at least).

[CyberCubed]

What I can see them doing is remaking the last 3 episodes of DBZ with the current designs when they move to that time period. I imagine Goku will then take Uub to train with Beerus on his planet, rather than staying on Earth with him like he did back then and into GT.

[Coola Yagami]

Most likely. At the end of the Moro arc Uub makes a cameo looking maybe a year or so younger than his debut at the tournament. They can't keep dragging this out anymore. Even in this movie, Pan is a toddler but she looks older than she did at the tournament.

Unless they say something like Uub was somehow born with God Ki or whatever, I just don't see any reason for Goku to ditch his family to train with Uub after meeting Beerus and Whis. It made sense at the time because Majin Buu was the most powerful face they have faced at the time. But now, the real fight is to someday surpass Beerus and possibly Whis, or even Broly or Jiren... but not a human version of Majin Buu.

As for the manga, we'll see. Broly was canon in the manga and was mentioned during the Moro arc. With Goku and Vegeta out in space with the current Granolah arc, I wouldn't be surprised if they went home Gohan mentioned the Red Ribbon shenanigans.

[CyberCubed]

By Super Logic, Goku training Uub for 3 months will make him Super Saiyan Blue level of power, so I can understand why he would want to train him.

[Coola Yagami]

By Super Logic, Goku training Uub for 3 months will make him Super Saiyan Blue level of power, so I can understand why he would want to train him.

I mean if he had God Ki maybe.

But let's be fair, Freeza was naturally all-powerful (at the time) without trying a day of his life. It took a legendary transformation to beat him. Him getting incredibly powerful by actually trying to improve himself makes sense.

[CyberCubed]

Well Uub is literally Kid Boo, so at his current stage he would be stronger than a Super Saiyan 3. Then after Goku trains him, he'd be at Blue level power at the minimum.

[Allio]

Watched Superhero

It was… fine. Out of the four major films, I would rank this at 3. Better than Resurrection F, but weaker than Battle of Gods.

I rank it low probably because of Cell Max. A mindless beast just leave much for investment.

[CyberCubed]

Watched Superhero

It was… fine. Out of the four major films, I would rank this at 3. Better than Resurrection F, but weaker than Battle of Gods.

I rank it low probably because of Cell Max. A mindless beast just leave much for investment.

I'm just glad it gives Gohan/Piccolo, and to a lesser extent Pan and Trunks/Goten (as adults) more screentime.

The franchise needs to move away from Goku/Vegeta for awhile. Most of Super has focused on them and its gotten so stale.

[neatoman]

I'm just glad it gives Gohan/Piccolo, and to a lesser extent Pan and Trunks/Goten (as adults) more screentime.

The franchise needs to move away from Goku/Vegeta for awhile. Most of Super has focused on them and its gotten so stale.

I'm guessing Toriyama and Toyotaro ran out of ideas on how to make Goku and Vegeta look all that different every time they need a power boost, so probably best to shift the arbitrary transformations to other characters for now. Vegeta's current highest form is just purple hair with shaven eyebrows, and as for Goku? The latest chapter just had him settle for the imperfect form of Ultra Instinct because he didn't think being perfectly calm was going to work out this time, he basically decided what is currently considered his peak thing was stupid...

[CyberCubed]

At this point the manga arcs may never be adapted to the anime so they may not even be canon.

[sdp]

Canon never mattered and definitely doesn't matter to Toei and Toriyama as long as you buy figures. Which is why SSJ4 keeps showing up despite GT not being canon, Garlic Jr appearing in the anime despite that the movie it references can't happen, why you have XenoVerse and All these video game continuities like super Dragon Ball Heroes and why the Manga "canon" Super anime retcons DBZ and ignores the super Manga canon as well.

Dragon Ball ended in the 90s. Anything after is just official fan service. And that's fine but it's silly to get into canon arguments

[neatoman]

At this point the manga arcs may never be adapted to the anime so they may not even be canon.

That's not how that works, Jaco the Galactic Patrolman does not have an adaptation yet the anime still clearly expected you to have read it.

[CyberCubed]

The anime and manga already contradict each other, as the way the Tournament of Power plays out in the manga is completely different than the anime. Different characters beat different characters, and Kefla never fights Goku in the manga and half of the main cast is wasted.

Also with Super Hero taking place later in the timeline (Pan is 2 and Trunks/Goten are grown up), it'll be awkward to adapt the Moro arc and the Granola arc which takes place before this with everyone still kids again and Gohan without his recent power up.

My guess is if they do adapt Moro to the anime, they'll re-write the entire arc. I mean even the Goku Black/Zamasu arc in the manga is different than the anime version (Future Trunks never defeats him, the battles play out differently), so it really is a different continuity now. It's not like the original manga which was Toriyama's canon and the anime threw in some filler episodes and scenes, now the manga is just its own thing.

[neatoman]

The reason for the manga and the anime being different is mainly because one isn't directly based on the other, it's because they work from the same synopsis. If I were to guess, the synopsis Toriyama wrote for the Zamasu arc probably isn't more detailed than:
"Trunks comes back because there is an evil Goku killing everyone or something, so they look into it and it turns out he's actually a god who the tournament on Youtube or some **** and used the Dragon Balls to swap bodies, so they go back to the future to kick his ass after killed him in the past. I guess the Mafuba would work. But then it turns out he teamed up with his future self and they fuse, so Goku and Vegeta fuse so there can be a pretty sweet fusion vs fusion match. Then it looks they beat him but then he, like I don't know, makes a billion copies of himself. So they get the help from the all-powerful god who just blows up the entire timeline, I guess that will explain why he can't keep showing up. Then... Trunks gets to live in a copy of his timeline, that's close enough to a happy ending. I don't know, fill in the blanks, I'm tired...".
If the TV anime were to come back, I don't think there would be much of a reason to deviate anymore, given that there exists a more concrete story this time.

As for this notion that there needs to be an animated version to constitute canon, still doesn't make sense. It's not like the contradictions are all that meaningful here, the stories all end up in the same place (BoG still ends with Goku getting God mode, RoF still had them turn blue, Universe 6 still got Earth back, Zeno still destroyed Trunks' timeline, ToP still ended with Freeza coming back to life, etc). As for the contradictions that do exist, does anyone actually think they matter? Does anyone actually care if Kefla, a character who is a combination of two minor characters and who probably won't ever come back, was defeated by Goku or Gohan? And the manga simply having story arcs that do not exist animated form does not constitute a contradiction, Super Hero does not contradict the manga only arcs because it doesn't occupy the same place in the timeline. And need I remind you that the movie versions of BoG and RoF are very different from the TV versions, so if we're gonna have to take this logic and run with it, we have to discount one or the other in order to make the story work, which we don't really have to.

Sorry if that was a little bit ranty but you have to understand that the Super era's notion of canon isn't a very strict one in comparison to the olden days. The way it's structured it's almost as if it's designed so you could watch the the TV version of BoG, go for the movie version of RoF next then read the manga version of the Universe 6 tournament. It's very much focused on how it starts and ends, not so much the details in between.

If the TV anime were to come back, it would probably be something like this:

The thing with the Cell Juniors in the manga along with some Tournament epilogue.
Retroactive adaptation of Jaco the Galactic Patrolman and Minus, along with some additional backstory for Broly.
A retelling of the Broly movie.
The Moro arc.
The Granolah arc.
Whatever arc(s) that comes after the Granolah arc.
Retelling of Super Hero.
Retelling of whatever manga arc(s) is set after Super Hero.
Retelling of whatever movie(s) comes next.
Retelling of Z's ending.

And I'm not pulling this out of my ass either, it's based on what the TV version of Super actually did before. The only difference being the omission of pure filler.

[oldmanwinters]

Saw it on an IMAX-ish big screen last night and enjoyed it greatly.

I successfully avoided reading or listening to spoilers since the Japanese release, but seeing images of the new character transformations was pretty much unavoidable given the inexcusably large delay getting that thing released over here, so I hope Toei/Funimation/Cruncyroll are happy.

My local theatre is offering showings of the subtitled Japanese version, so I might go check that out tomorrow.

This film seems to be the point where the source material becomes fully aware of the franchise's own tropes to the point where it's basically a running gag played straight throughout the film. The movie seems to want to have that AND recreate the emotional beats of the Android/Cell sagas, and I'd say it has mixed success (at best) in that regard. Even the post-credits scene is an odd mix of it, as if it exists only to throw a bone to frustrated Vegeta fanboys.

Anyhoo, I think the most interesting part of the movie is probably the introduction of the villains in the first 10 minutes, prior to any appearance by the "Dragon Team" mains or even the film's title. The whole Red Ribbon army saga got way convoluted with its retcons back in DBZ, and I think this film does its best to reconcile as much as it wants to with continuity that stretches back to the 1980s. And the RR spin on the franchise history was inspired, making "the aliens" into a villainous conspiracy dedicated to world domination It was entirely believable and allowed Dr. Hedo to remain some endearing quality to the audience. Also, RR Army rebranded as the Red Pharmaceutical Company could be some real biting satire.

For the most part, the fully 3D animation is a rousing success. The city scapes and RR base look very good in the 3D wide shots. I prefer traditional 2D animation for this franchise, but I'll take a 3D style over 2D with obvious 3D elements sticking out. DBS: Broly seemed to balance it well, but most shows don't. Characters look great in motion but a little weird ("off model" even) when they stand/sit around talking. Maybe it has something to do with ADR for the dub?

The opening animation summarizing Goku's struggles against the Red Ribbon army looks amazing. I honestly couldn't tell whether it was 2D or 3D animation.

I was glad to finally get a DB movie that features Piccolo as the main character.

I never cease to be amazed at the franchise trope of "random Earth scientist builds machine or android who rivals or surpasses the strongest forces in the multiverse." And now Capsule Corp has one of each under the same roof.

I was surprised the movie wasn't afraid to exploit Bulma (nothing above PG though) for some laughs, but for the most part, she always seemed to be in on the jokes. Her dubbed voice seemed a little "off" to me... not sure why, but looks like Monica Rial did the voice over, so who knows?

Broly has a couple lines of dialogue in this film, so maybe they were trying to dodge the brunt of the controversy over recasting the character after the Vic Mignogna fallout?

Beerus seems to have sex on his mind. Can't believe I typed that. But I think he still prefers sleep and ice cream.

I had no idea Charles Martinet (It's-a-me-Mario) had a major role in this film, and I didn't even notice until I finally started watching fan reviews today. I didn't even think he was in the Funimation orbit for available options.

Zeno Robinson's voice, on the other hand, was obvious to me through the whole film. Made me think of Remy Remington from Disney's Big City Greens every time he spoke.

Also, Krillin gets a nice moment or two to shine, so that's something.

Pan seems to be set up for larger things in the franchise's future, but she doesn't do anything obnoxious in this film, and I'm thankful for that. Trunks and Goten are visibly older now, but I don't have great hope for their future development.

Also, Videl is a character in the movie... I think. Some of the little story beats she has seem to be wrapped up in the credits-overlaid artwork.

Mr. Satan and Buu are discussed, but they don't get any actual cameos, so far as I remember.

I can't imagine being an obsessive fan trying to even comprehend "power scaling" at this point.

Cell Max didn't seem to have much in the way of "cellular regeneration." After a major attack, he loses an arm for the remainder of the fight, which helps turn the tide for the heroes. His death was perfectly satisfying but I felt the original Perfect Cell was WAY trickier to kill because he could regenerate fully from any functioning cells. OG Cell's head wasn't an exploitable weakness at all.

[Coola Yagami]

To be fair, DB will always be a Japanese franchise, despite what Funimation wants to boast or whatever, all they do is dub it. Nothing in the US affects Toei so they could have had Broly in 90% of the movie if they wanted with little regard to the Vic nonsense.

[oldmanwinters]

To be fair, DB will always be a Japanese franchise, despite what Funimation wants to boast or whatever, all they do is dub it. Nothing in the US affects Toei so they could have had Broly in 90% of the movie if they wanted with little regard to the Vic nonsense.

Oh, sure, but Funimation could also give the character more dialogue, as they have done in the past with characters doing voice overs from off-screen, such as commenting on a fight.

EDIT: The more I think about it, wasn't TOEI reportedly infuriated with Funimation about all how the Vic situation played out... and the fallout with fans? There was even some speculation they might pull the franchise license.

[Coola Yagami]

Oh, sure, but Funimation could also give the character more dialogue, as they have done in the past with characters doing voice overs from off-screen, such as commenting on a fight.

Argh. True. Though I think they stopped doing that ******** in recent years.

Idk if it was to pay the actors for more lines or cause they thought us dumb Americans would get bored easy if the characters aren't talking every 2 minutes.

[neatoman]

So a pleasant surprise for me, turns out at least one theater in Stockholm is showing this movie. As far as I can tell, this is the first Dragon Ball movie (with the probable exception of Evolution but who the hell even counts that as part of the official DB franchise anyway?) to get a theatrical release.

Fun fact, while the original Dragon Ball manga has a full Swedish translation, the TV shows have never gotten dubbed or even aired in Sweden. Some of the movies got released on DVD but that's it.

[oldmanwinters]

So a pleasant surprise for me, turns out at least one theater in Stockholm is showing this movie. As far as I can tell, this is the first Dragon Ball movie (with the probable exception of Evolution but who the hell even counts that as part of the official DB franchise anyway?) to get a theatrical release.

Fun fact, while the original Dragon Ball manga has a full Swedish translation, the TV shows have never gotten dubbed or even aired in Sweden. Some of the movies got released on DVD but that's it.

Man, your country has it rough! I say Universal Healthcare isn't complete without ready, legal access to Dragon Ball episodes! :tlol:

[lonewarrior20]

Cell Max didn't seem to have much in the way of "cellular regeneration." After a major attack, he loses an arm for the remainder of the fight, which helps turn the tide for the heroes. His death was perfectly satisfying but I felt the original Perfect Cell was WAY trickier to kill because he could regenerate fully from any functioning cells. OG Cell's head wasn't an exploitable weakness at all.

just saw it in theater and loved it.
if i recall future cell only got that upgrade after draining piccolos arm and they only had dr. gero's notes and early data to make cell max.

[oldmanwinters]

just saw it in theater and loved it.
if i recall future cell only got that upgrade after draining piccolos arm and they only had dr. gero's notes and early data to make cell max.

Since I primarily watched the Funimation TV dub, I don't remember, but I always had it in my brain, Dr. Gero created Cell with Piccolo's DNA from the start.

Also, courtesy of Team Four Star:

http://i.imgur.com/hwxOR1wh.jpg (https://imgur.com/hwxOR1w)

[Coola Yagami]

just saw it in theater and loved it.
if i recall future cell only got that upgrade after draining piccolos arm and they only had dr. gero's notes and early data to make cell max.

Ah no, Cell could do it, he just didn't know he could til Piccolo showed him, inadvertently of course


Also, courtesy of Team Four Star:

http://i.imgur.com/hwxOR1wh.jpg (https://imgur.com/hwxOR1w)


To be fair, we didn't see Piccolo do that til the Buu Saga.

Also I'm assuming Cell Max just wasn't finished or whatever. Not only can he not (or doesn't know he can) regenerate, he also have the extra weak spot on his head.

[ChosenOne]

It's explicitly stated in the movie that Cell Max is unfinished and effectively mindless. It's possible he already had Piccolo's regen, along with the whole suite of the cast's signature techniques, but simply couldn't pull off the required conscious effort to grow his arm back. Also, the weak spot is said to be a built-in safety mechanism in case he gets out of control.

[oldmanwinters]

Saw the subtitled version today, and it made a few things more clear:

Cell Max seems to be powered by seven color-coded sources. Could each one be a different dna input?

He probably does have cellular regeneration ability but the failsafe head weakness is engineered to make an explosion that even his cells can’t survive.

The framed portraits on Magenta’s desk suggest he’s the love child of Commander Red and Colonel Violet… makes sense!

Gero mated/married Vomi. I need to dig deeper into Dragonball Fighterz. Wonder if we will learn about their mysterious other child one day.

Piccolo seems to be unaware of what “poop” is, which O think ties into the earlier joke about how he doesn’t eat. Honestly, I never knew that. I was thinking Gamma 2 should have tried hitting him where the sun don’t shine, but maybe that would have been pointless too.

The English dub suggests the Red Ribbon army could have been stopped with a wish from Shenron but it was never brought up in the original, the only regret being they did not think to transport Goku and Vegeta to earth.

The English dub gives Piccolo a line about never earning his license, an apparent callback to the infamous filler episode that got a laugh out of my theater. Not a reference in the Jap version, so it seemed.

I got the sense Beerus wasn’t quite as horny as suggested in the English dub. Maybe his attraction is more for the sake of aesthetic beauty?

I was still not sure why 18 was comically pushing around Krillin at the very end. Not sure if it was a lover’s game or some background dialogue the subtitles did not pick up on.

I am as confused as Piccolo why Gohan could not recognize him in disguise when Pan could.


Seeing/Hearing the film in the original language is about the most Japanese thing I have ever experienced.

Edit: I call bull on Goku not understanding then dismissing Vegeta’s mental training. Goku REPEATEDLY studied that same discipline in OG Dragonball with Korin, Popo & Kami. It was a major plot point that he reduce his unnecessary movements to increase his focus to overcome Mercenary Tao and then Piccolo. Goku meditated a ton in DB and probably parts of DBZ I have forgotten about. Maybe he was really knew what Vegeta was up to and was just trying to test his commitment?

Edit x2:
Vegeta deserves to feel elated after ANY small victory over Goku, the fact is that he has never outright lost an on-screen fight against him. So he holds a perfect head-to-head record, in my book.

[Anarchistguy]

Oh, sure, but Funimation could also give the character more dialogue, as they have done in the past with characters doing voice overs from off-screen, such as commenting on a fight.

They stopped doing that When Dragon Ball Kai came to North America and actually started translating the script instead of localising it to make it sound cool to a five year old.

[oldmanwinters]

So it just now hit me that the movie makes a big deal out of Pan's struggle learning to fly. And yet, she has been doing it effortlessly as a baby throughout the Super anime.

Even (light) space travel. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsQwEHJV-Y0)

Is there a Manga vs. Anime discrepancy that the movie is choosing to favor/ignore?

[Vegita-San]

maybe it's a skill you loose the more brain you gain. and you have to re learn it all over again.

[oldmanwinters]

maybe it's a skill you loose the more brain you gain. and you have to re learn it all over again.

I guess baby Gohan kinda-sorta pulled it off at least once:
wetKxaxCvdY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wetKxaxCvdY

I don't even recall when he learned to fly permanently.

EDIT: I am still amused that Master Roshi got selected to fight in the Tournament of Power arc (and did well enough to earn Beerus' respect) and yet he probably refuses to learn flight out of spite against Shen and the Crane School.

[neatoman]

Alright, so the Manga version of the story just concluded and it has this page:
https://desu-usergeneratedcontent.xyz/a/image/1703/11/1703110185318.jpg
So I'm guessing the Red Ribbon army will continue to be recurring villains in the series? The movie doesn't imply they're still around but it doesn't state that it's the end of them either, so maybe a scene like this was planned but ultimately cut?

[CyberCubed]

At this point the manga is just glorified fanfiction so I guess it doesn't matter what it does. Super is over and Daima isn't covering any of these arcs so...

[IMJ]

Question for the Dragonball guys -

I think the likelihood of me actually getting around to doing this is next to zero, but if I wanted to watch the first season of the "original" Dragonball, what would I have to buy or download to do that? Meaning what was it called, etc?

Grassroots Dragonball - not "Dragonball Super Yayayaya" or "Dragonball Elite Power Zord Super No Dinero X" - just "Dragonball for Dummies".... What do I have to seek out to do that?

[CyberCubed]

The first series is literally just called, "Dragon Ball" and began in the mid-80's. It ran for over 150 episodes. The sequel series is called "Dragon Ball Z" and is basically the reason the franchise exploded into popularity as it was the main series. After that there's movies, spinoffs, sequel series, etc...but you can ignore those for now.

All of the series has been on DVD and online streaming for decades now, so you can probably just buy it or look it up wherever.

[ZariusTwo]

Question for the Dragonball guys -

I think the likelihood of me actually getting around to doing this is next to zero, but if I wanted to watch the first season of the "original" Dragonball, what would I have to buy or download to do that? Meaning what was it called, etc?

Grassroots Dragonball - not "Dragonball Super Yayayaya" or "Dragonball Elite Power Zord Super No Dinero X" - just "Dragonball for Dummies".... What do I have to seek out to do that?

if you want a more digestible version of DBZ, seek out Dragonball Z Kai, which was a partial remake/reedit that cut out all the filler (DBZ has a ton of it, sometimes the filler episodes lasted a month)

[LeotheLateBloomer]

if you want a more digestible version of DBZ, seek out Dragonball Z Kai, which was a partial remake/reedit that cut out all the filler (DBZ has a ton of it, sometimes the filler episodes lasted a month)

Kai is the definitive way to watch DBZ.

[neatoman]

At this point the manga is just glorified fanfiction so I guess it doesn't matter what it does. Super is over and Daima isn't covering any of these arcs so...

... So you assume that because they are making what's (probably) a prequel set shortly before Battle of Gods, that they're just going to let Freeza run around freely? And speak for yourself, but the manga isn't invalid if Toei actually ignores it, Toei doesn't even care about what they do, most of the contradictions in the anime comes down to Toei ignoring their own additions to the series.

[IMJ]

Okay so the iterations that anyone cares about are basically:

Dragon Ball - the first iteration from the 80s where the characters looked like little chibi people
Dragon Ball Z - the 2nd iteration from the 90's where the characters looked like muscular anime drawings

and then there were a whole bunch of follow-ups after that, but if I want to watch Dragon Ball Z I can watch some edited version called Dragon Ball Kai instead.

It looks like the original 1980s Dragon Ball never got a Blu Ray release. I'd say I should just stick to Fist of the North Star, but that's a complex mess of releases too...

[neatoman]

Okay so the iterations that anyone cares about are basically:

Dragon Ball - the first iteration from the 80s where the characters looked like little chibi people
Dragon Ball Z - the 2nd iteration from the 90's where the characters looked like muscular anime drawings

and then there were a whole bunch of follow-ups after that, but if I want to watch Dragon Ball Z I can watch some edited version called Dragon Ball Kai instead.

It looks like the original 1980s Dragon Ball never got a Blu Ray release. I'd say I should just stick to Fist of the North Star, but that's a complex mess of releases too...

The original Dragon Ball show does have a great Blu-Ray release... In France only...

[sdp]

power scaling stopped mattering since DBZ. Even if they kept the Z fighters weaker than the Saiyans, the fact that they became as strong as Saiyans were just the last arc still didn't make sense.
Super is just more blatant about it than Z. This whole "Akira Toriyama" canon is BS, GT handled stuff far better and likely will give a better ending than Super ever will. Hell even the "what if" scenarios of video games in Dragon Ball Heroes and Xenoverse are far more interesting since at least they dont' try to break power scaling, they play around with stuff that already exists, like making fusions of characters already out there or putting SSJ4 Goku vs SSJ Blue etc. They aren't trying to outdo the previous arcs power but just play with what has already been created.
but fans will eat up Purple Piccolo, Magenta Freeza and SSJ Rainbow Vegeta boomer instinct Goku if Toei releases it with Toriyama's approval

.

[CyberCubed]

I'd recommend DBZ over Kai. DBZ has filler, but a lot of it actually adds to the lore of the show. Kai is basically a super-cut of DBZ spliced down to the key plots from the manga, but it doesn't flow as well since they just cut scenes from old episodes together and didn't reanimate the show from scratch.

Dragonball and Dragon Ball Z were the original run from Toriyama, from 1984-1995. Everything else is a sequel or spinoff or non-canon.

[neatoman]

Don't listen to Cubed. He's only correct about how Kai should have been a remake instead of a shortened cut, but the awkward cuts are a price worth paying.

Virtually everything the anime added in is garbage. The vast majority of it is extremely pointless flashbacks, many of which reuse footage from less than five episodes and is something Goku thinking back to how he dodged a kick or something. The second most type of filler are scenes that designed to be pointless, sometimes it can be kind of exciting if it's a bonus fight or something, but it's mostly going to be crap like Bulma turning Yajirobe's scarf into a diaper for Trunks. And despite the manga literally having nine time skips (some of which are so close together I might as well not even bother classifying them as separate) and the longest one being seven years, you'd be surprised at how little the shows bother to take advantage of them, leading to the more boring forms of filler I've already mentioned. This is of course also all on top of the problems you get with contradictions.

No, Kai is not by any means perfect and they really should have started from scratch there, but it is far less of a boring slog full of deliberate pointlessness that the original cut is.

[CyberCubed]

DBZ is much better. The filler in the Saiyan saga is the best part as it fleshes out Goku being dead in Snake Way, Gohan training, the humans training, etc. The Namek saga filler is some of the weakest/worst, but there's still some good stuff there.

Most of the Cell and Buu saga filler was good that you wouldn't even know it was filler unless you read the manga.

[Mad Dog McMutt]

I have to agree with Cyber Cubed here on this one. I love most of the filler in DBZ and I think it helps build atmostsphere to the DBZ universe. We get to see a fake planet Namek, Vegeta in space searching for Goku, the other world tournament and many other priceless moments. I couldn't imagine DBZ being the same without all of those moments. How boring would that be? I also can't stand the Voice of Gohan and Frieza in Kai. I know that I am in the minority, but I like the feminine weird reptilian tone that the original voice had. It seemed more fitting for him being an alien reptilian like being.

[TheCanadiandrome]

Question for the Dragonball guys -

I think the likelihood of me actually getting around to doing this is next to zero, but if I wanted to watch the first season of the "original" Dragonball, what would I have to buy or download to do that? Meaning what was it called, etc?

Grassroots Dragonball - not "Dragonball Super Yayayaya" or "Dragonball Elite Power Zord Super No Dinero X" - just "Dragonball for Dummies".... What do I have to seek out to do that?

CrunchyRoll or Funimation

[neatoman]

CrunchyRoll or Funimation

Or you know… Once again… If you can read French, the single best release is out there…

[TheCanadiandrome]

Or you know… Once again… If you can read French, the single best release is out there…

French...pfft LOL :lol: :lol:

[Mad Dog McMutt]

Okay so the iterations that anyone cares about are basically:

Dragon Ball - the first iteration from the 80s where the characters looked like little chibi people
Dragon Ball Z - the 2nd iteration from the 90's where the characters looked like muscular anime drawings

and then there were a whole bunch of follow-ups after that, but if I want to watch Dragon Ball Z I can watch some edited version called Dragon Ball Kai instead.

It looks like the original 1980s Dragon Ball never got a Blu Ray release. I'd say I should just stick to Fist of the North Star, but that's a complex mess of releases too...

If I were you I would watch DBZ first and then if you like that check out the original Dragonball. The only thing you have to really know going into Dbz is that when Goku was a kid he and his friends had adventures searching for dragonaballs that can grant a wish once all 7 are collected. As Dbz plays out you will learn all you really need to know about the characters and their roles especially through flashbacks without needing to know too much about the original Dragonball series. A lot of people watched Dbz before the original Dragonball.

[neatoman]

French...pfft LOL :lol: :lol:

Yes yes, I know. "Sacre Bleu, nous nous rendons!" and what not, but dude, trust me, the French Blu-Rays of Dragon Ball have the best sound quality of any home release ever. And I mean in the Japanese language, not some dub but the actual original language sounds amazing on the French Blu-Rays.

[IMJ]

Good to know - thanks for the info. Simplified enough here given how much Dragonball is out there.

They do this "short recut" of seasons with Ghost in the Shell as well. Take seasons of the show and re-edit them into a single movie.

[sdp]

I think Kai might be a good recommendation for someone more casual that wants to check out DB. They really should've added the Piccolo Jr Tournament from DB to give a bit more context, it's still adult goku and action oriented so it would've fit as a precursor to Raditz. I've yet to check out Kai because I don't want to hear a new dub or a new soundtrack, so I'd rather watch the filler again, and yeah some of the filler can be good, not all of it but some of it. Didn't they reanimate some specific parts? I'd definitely want to watch those reanimated bits though.

DB and DBZ are very different shows indeed with DBZ being the favorite among most, but besides Japan and Europe I don't think many people got to enjoy DB before DBZ and I'm sure it hits very different. DB is just an adventure comedy with plenty of action. It starts to lean more action oriented towards the end but DBZ is pretty much just an action shonen. As many faults as GT had, I appreciate they tried to bridge the gap between both the original and Z in terms of tone.

The soul of who the characters are is all from the original DB the "Z" fighters which btw I'm sure it's an American only term, I don't remember it being used before the DBZ arrived in the US are pretty much worthless in Z, the reason they're even there is because of how important they were in the original DB.

The only reason the first episode of DBZ is so epic is because you know Goku is the strongest after defeating the demon Piccolo. So to see those two team up against a greater foe was crazy. Piccolo had been the baddes MF ever and he's only making this one exception join Goku. Seeing the Red Ribbon army return for the Android saga was epic because we knew all the crap Goku had to deal with to defeat the Red Ribbon army. Hell we love Master Roshi because of the type of teacher that he was during all of the original DB. I think watching DB after DBZ just wouldn't be the same, you have a different perspective of who the characters became. Yamcha will forever be seen as a loser when he was a great warrior, Piccolo will never be seen as the threat that he was meant to be, Tien would just be seen as another fighter Goku dealt with instead of one of his greatest challenges etc etc.

[IMJ]

This level of debate is what I sought to avoid - getting into the murky waters of how Japanese anime is handled rather than continuing to be straight-line serialized or anthology content.

From the more helpful posts, what I'm getting out of it is, as a starter, Dragon Ball began with "Dragon Ball". And then it became Dragon Ball Z.

The short of it is, you start with Dragon Ball and if you don't want to watch chibi-characters at the height of their weirdness, just go to Dragon Ball Z which is the first incarnation of the anime as we tend to see it in pop culture today.

Best places to do this are probably Crunchyroll or Funimation unless they can be easily DL'd somewhere because the on-disc releases have been a mess to invest into.

[CyberCubed]

Starting with the original dragon ball is how the story was intended and all the important characters are introduced. Many fans incorrectly view it as a prequel since they started with dragon ball Z but that's literally the beginning of the series.

Keep it mind DragonBall is 153 eps long and Dragon Ball Z is another 291 eps, so altogether this is like 400+ something eps if you want to commit to it. And that is not counting that there are also 15+ movies, specials, and GT and Super and some of it is non-canon so it's a wild ride.

[TheCanadiandrome]

Yes yes, I know. "Sacre Bleu, nous nous rendons!" and what not, but dude, trust me, the French Blu-Rays of Dragon Ball have the best sound quality of any home release ever. And I mean in the Japanese language, not some dub but the actual original language sounds amazing on the French Blu-Rays.

Ya kind have me curious

[neatoman]

Ya kind have me curious

Basically, what happened was that the way Toei stored audio for the show degraded over time, they basically just kept some analogue recordings synced to the master tapes of the show, instead of the tapes they recorded the voice work on. This does result in crisp sound when initially airing but isn't as good down the line. However, fans managed to record the entire series on VHS when it was originally airing, which preserves audio quality much better. Fans offered both Toei and Funimation copies of these tapes but they went unused by them, instead trying to fix the broken audio digitally. THis method does improve the quality but isn't as crisp. The French distributor of the original Dragon Ball, AB group, did however accept the tapes and used them for their Blu-Ray remasters.

Here's a video detailing it:
mlGY8u9PbwI

[Allio]

Kind of weird coming to this thread to see a question about a “watch order” but I guess for anime viewers it might seem confusing with Kai, GT and Daima

[neatoman]

Kind of weird coming to this thread to see a question about a “watch order” but I guess for anime viewers it might seem confusing with Kai, GT and Daima

And typical watch order answers tend to be something like:
"The proper way to watch Super is to skip episodes the first 27 episodes and watch the two movies that have the same stories instead, then you need to be careful not to watch episodes 42-46, 68-76 and 90-91, then watch the Broly movie and make sure to read the Moro/Granolah arcs before you watch Super Hero. Oh, and by all means try to find a shortened fan cut of the episodes you still have to watch."

[CyberCubed]

I can see why people would he confused how to watch if you're not familiar with Dragon Ball or trying to get into it for the first time as there's multiple series now and some non-canon series and movies.

Granted we're on a TMNT forum and people also watch star wars, star trek, and DC/Marvel so people should be used to long running franchises with multiple continuities and series so people should be used to it.

[sdp]

Does anyone here actually care for the story to continue? I mean I feel Dragon Ball reached it's storytelling possibilities when it finished. A few specials or movie from time to time can be fun for a nostalgic look at the heroes we loved but giving them new adventures is just staining the story with bloat.

A remake wouldn't work since it already follows the manga fairly well and it'd feel unecessary. I think what I'd like is a series of "what ifs". They are always my favorite aspect in the video games, the world already has tons of interesting stuff to work with, it doesn't need to introduce new power ups. What if Vegeta had arrived to earth instead of goku like that fan manga, and what if Trunks hadn't come to the past to warn about the robots, how would our Z fighters have handled the situation with Mecha Freeza and King Cold. What if Raditz,Vegeta and Nappa had recruited successfully Goku to defeat Freeza through deception instead of fighting against him. So many dream matches could be had at different stages of the DBZ lore that never happened because of another big baddie appearing, but we'd still ike to see those what if events. Maybe it's just me. At least the video games like to have fun with these scenarios.

[CyberCubed]

I would have said otherwise but the floodgates have been opened already. I think it'll end again when Toriyama says so, Goku's VA dies, or they feel they exhausted the "new" era again.

At the very least Super ended in March 2018 which is nearly 6 years ago now. Imagine if Super was still going these 5 years, it'd have more episodes than DBZ by now. At least they took a break besides the 2 new movies since it ended.

[IMJ]

So I finally got around to watching something "Dragonball" and I have to say that as luck would have it the thing I watched I feel is probably the thing that you guys should have recommended all along.....

By some weird twist of fate, I sat through, beginning to end, "Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Gods". Now I know, I know some of you argumentative savants want to immediately pull the "how do you know if you haven't seen more than thaaatttt?"

And the reason I know is because the movie checked all the boxes simply through some dialog cues here or there that bring you up to speed enough to draw you in.

-Goku and Vegeta are basically Superman and Zod. Due to anime tropes, there was probably an entire movie or season of them fighting only to reveal that Vegeta is misunderstood and is a good guy.
-Goku is the good guy who wins a lot.
-The universe consists of aliens and alien worlds with a variety of creatures rather than just humanity and whatever species Goku and Vegeta are the last of (can't remember what they were called)
-The show's vibe is a lot more slapstick and upbeat than I would have guessed. Honestly I thought that it had the same vibe as "Fist of the North Star" but it's actually incredibly light-hearted instead.
-Just from that one movie I can tell the show follows all of the standard "Japanimation" tropes. If I had to guess, at one point Picollo was a "bad guy" later to be revealed as having "motivation" instead of "evil" and he goes on to be one of Goku's buddies. All very "Power Rangers". All very "anime".
-The Egyptian Cat-God guy (can't remember his name) clearly becomes a future ally in some other movie or show, and this movie laid the groundwork for the iterations that were coming after it (increasing power-ups, next level "universal" villains, etc).

And so it's all nicely dialogged-in and also very cliche in a way that you could ascertain much of the story by sitting through this movie without being indoctrinated by hours and hours of series beforehand. Combine that with even a modest understanding of "anime culture" and you've got it pinned down.

But again, I lucked out having "Battle of the Gods" as the first one I watched. I stumbled upon it on YouTube and watched it while lying in bed. Like I was 12. I didn't necessarily "choose it", but instead just saw it on YouTube and said "ah what the hell".

It was cool, I liked that it was light-hearted - the comedy kept me from feeling like I was wasting my time. I don't know that I'll ever get around to watching more Dragon Ball, but I get it now. It's fine. It's cool.

[shihe]

I've watched all shows and movies.
It's been my #1 anime for a long time (and I've watched more than I'm proud of) until it was recently dethroned by another one. But still... I'm kind excited for Daima. Although I would've preferred a the Moro arc to be made into anime WAY more.

(Only one I didn't like was Super Dragonball Heroes)

[CyberCubed]

So I finally got around to watching something "Dragonball" and I have to say that as luck would have it the thing I watched I feel is probably the thing that you guys should have recommended all along.....

By some weird twist of fate, I sat through, beginning to end, "Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Gods". Now I know, I know some of you argumentative savants want to immediately pull the "how do you know if you haven't seen more than thaaatttt?"

And the reason I know is because the movie checked all the boxes simply through some dialog cues here or there that bring you up to speed enough to draw you in.

-Goku and Vegeta are basically Superman and Zod. Due to anime tropes, there was probably an entire movie or season of them fighting only to reveal that Vegeta is misunderstood and is a good guy.
-Goku is the good guy who wins a lot.
-The universe consists of aliens and alien worlds with a variety of creatures rather than just humanity and whatever species Goku and Vegeta are the last of (can't remember what they were called)
-The show's vibe is a lot more slapstick and upbeat than I would have guessed. Honestly I thought that it had the same vibe as "Fist of the North Star" but it's actually incredibly light-hearted instead.
-Just from that one movie I can tell the show follows all of the standard "Japanimation" tropes. If I had to guess, at one point Picollo was a "bad guy" later to be revealed as having "motivation" instead of "evil" and he goes on to be one of Goku's buddies. All very "Power Rangers". All very "anime".
-The Egyptian Cat-God guy (can't remember his name) clearly becomes a future ally in some other movie or show, and this movie laid the groundwork for the iterations that were coming after it (increasing power-ups, next level "universal" villains, etc).

And so it's all nicely dialogged-in and also very cliche in a way that you could ascertain much of the story by sitting through this movie without being indoctrinated by hours and hours of series beforehand. Combine that with even a modest understanding of "anime culture" and you've got it pinned down.

But again, I lucked out having "Battle of the Gods" as the first one I watched. I stumbled upon it on YouTube and watched it while lying in bed. Like I was 12. I didn't necessarily "choose it", but instead just saw it on YouTube and said "ah what the hell".

It was cool, I liked that it was light-hearted - the comedy kept me from feeling like I was wasting my time. I don't know that I'll ever get around to watching more Dragon Ball, but I get it now. It's fine. It's cool.

Yeah you guessed a lot right. Battle of God's came out in 2013 and was basically what started the revival of the series which ended back in 1996.

The original Dragon Ball anime starts off with Goku as a 12 year old and came out in 1986, with the manga in 1984. Basically started the same exact time Ninja Turtles did, so they were like sister series in the east and west.

If you ever check out the first series you'll see how all of Goku's friends and family in the Battle of God's movie were originally introduced over the years and see where they all came from and their backstories. But as said it's a time commitment, it's over 400 episodes with everything combined and then some non-canon shows and movies on top of that.

[neatoman]

-Just from that one movie I can tell the show follows all of the standard "Japanimation" tropes. If I had to guess, at one point Picollo was a "bad guy" later to be revealed as having "motivation" instead of "evil" and he goes on to be one of Goku's buddies. All very "Power Rangers". All very "anime".


Piccolo is a bit complicated to explain. The simple answer is that he really is evil at the start (as in he plans to wipe out a city once per year just for fun when he takes over the world), but takes several actions that reduces his inherent evil and eventually becomes good.

As for what exactly goes on there… This is more or less it:
Piccolo was once an alien child sent to earth alone because his own planet was going through a natural disaster. He wandered around earth for a while and learned evil from interacting with the natives. Eventually he came into contact with the god of planet earth and sought to become his successor once he died, but had to purge the evil from himself to do so. Thus he was split in two, one became the pure good new god of earth Kami, and the other became the demon king Piccolo.

Piccolo was eventually sort of killed by Goku but he spat out an egg containing a more powerful copy of himself who is treated as the same individual as the original (which on some level, he has to be the same one because the lifeforce of Kami and Piccolo is the same, meaning they both die if one of them die) but isn't as inherently evil, this is the version of Piccolo we see throughout most of the series. This new Piccolo learns that he still isn't powerful enough to defeat Goku so he puts his conquest on hold until he is confident enough to take him on. When Vegeta was going to show up, he decided to train Gohan (Goku's son) and bonded with him, thus learning what it means to care about someone. He eventually sacrifices himself to save Gohan but this also killed Kami (remember, they are still technically the same person) and because Kami created the Dragon Balls, this negates them.

In order to resurrect everyone, they go to Piccolo's homeworld to find other Dragon Balls and when they do, they bring Piccolo and Kami back to life so Piccolo can aid in their battle against Freeza and use the earth's Dragon Balls again. On this planet, Piccolo assimilates another of his kind to become stronger and get some knowledge needed to defeat Freeza, the exact effect this has on his identity or personality seems unclear, though he seems to become more analytical after this.

When Cell shows up, Piccolo and Kami decide to rejoin to make sure they're powerful enough to defeat him. This time around, remerging has a clear effect on him. He seems to have no trace of evil left in him, he seems to recall his time as both Piccolo and Kami in equal regard, a few characters refer to him as having been both, declares that he had no name because he was once again the same individual as that alien child and only goes by Piccolo because he probably needs a name anyway. This is the version of Piccolo seen in BoG.

In order to simplify this:

Version 1: Alien Orphan
Version 2 and 3: God of Earth and the Demon King split in two
Version 4: Recreated Demon King
Version 5: Recreated Demon King with an Alien Warrior absorbed
Version 6: Version 5 and Version 2 combined into something that thinks of himself as Version 1

[Mad Dog McMutt]

So I finally got around to watching something "Dragonball" and I have to say that as luck would have it the thing I watched I feel is probably the thing that you guys should have recommended all along.....

By some weird twist of fate, I sat through, beginning to end, "Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Gods". Now I know, I know some of you argumentative savants want to immediately pull the "how do you know if you haven't seen more than thaaatttt?"

And the reason I know is because the movie checked all the boxes simply through some dialog cues here or there that bring you up to speed enough to draw you in.

-Goku and Vegeta are basically Superman and Zod. Due to anime tropes, there was probably an entire movie or season of them fighting only to reveal that Vegeta is misunderstood and is a good guy.
-Goku is the good guy who wins a lot.
-The universe consists of aliens and alien worlds with a variety of creatures rather than just humanity and whatever species Goku and Vegeta are the last of (can't remember what they were called)
-The show's vibe is a lot more slapstick and upbeat than I would have guessed. Honestly I thought that it had the same vibe as "Fist of the North Star" but it's actually incredibly light-hearted instead.
-Just from that one movie I can tell the show follows all of the standard "Japanimation" tropes. If I had to guess, at one point Picollo was a "bad guy" later to be revealed as having "motivation" instead of "evil" and he goes on to be one of Goku's buddies. All very "Power Rangers". All very "anime".
-The Egyptian Cat-God guy (can't remember his name) clearly becomes a future ally in some other movie or show, and this movie laid the groundwork for the iterations that were coming after it (increasing power-ups, next level "universal" villains, etc).

And so it's all nicely dialogged-in and also very cliche in a way that you could ascertain much of the story by sitting through this movie without being indoctrinated by hours and hours of series beforehand. Combine that with even a modest understanding of "anime culture" and you've got it pinned down.

But again, I lucked out having "Battle of the Gods" as the first one I watched. I stumbled upon it on YouTube and watched it while lying in bed. Like I was 12. I didn't necessarily "choose it", but instead just saw it on YouTube and said "ah what the hell".

It was cool, I liked that it was light-hearted - the comedy kept me from feeling like I was wasting my time. I don't know that I'll ever get around to watching more Dragon Ball, but I get it now. It's fine. It's cool.

In my opinion starting off watching Battle of Gods which is basically like watching Super is like first being exposed to Metallica by the St. Anger album. That's when the series got stupid as hell with an over abundance of transformations and terrible story writing. That's just my opinion.

[IMJ]

All of the Piccolo stuff

:o Anime, man. :lol: smh
Thank you for that good character-training. 8)

In my opinion starting off watching Battle of Gods which is basically like watching Super is like first being exposed to Metallica by the St. Anger album. That's when the series got stupid as hell with an over abundance of transformations and terrible story writing. That's just my opinion.

:o:lol: Wow! That is hysterical! Yeah - the Battle of Gods definitely struck me as over-the-top in so many ways, but I think my feeling that I "lucked out" in seeing it first was less about "quality" and more about the good "info dump" it provided in context of a now decades-old, complicated show.

But man... :lol: that Metallica analogy... oh man.... :lol:

[Mad Dog McMutt]

:o Anime, man. :lol: smh
Thank you for that good character-training. 8)



:o:lol: Wow! That is hysterical! Yeah - the Battle of Gods definitely struck me as over-the-top in so many ways, but I think my feeling that I "lucked out" in seeing it first was less about "quality" and more about the good "info dump" it provided in context of a now decades-old, complicated show.

But man... :lol: that Metallica analogy... oh man.... :lol:

Glad you liked the analogy. I think if that was my first exposure to Dragonball I would be turned off by it, and this is coming from a huge Dragonball fan. If you thought it wasn't that bad then I am pretty sure you would love Dragonball and Dragonball Z where the story writing and characters are really good. None of that lame Beerus or SS God crap.

[CyberCubed]

Beerus is a great character, but the additional transformations did go out of control from there.

[Vegita-San]

SSJ god should have been the ONLY transformation. what should have happened was various levels. not new colors, or names, but levels. once you master SSJG, you become a God of destruction.

[sdp]

SSJ2 is so pointless even Toriyama forgot about it. I mean even fans debate if a certain character is in SSJ2 or SSJ1 since they're the same thing. I mean it really only existed because everyone and their mom was now a SSJ in the android saga.
SSJ3 looks cool but because of the restriction it wasn't really used so it might as well not exist. I mean when it was used correctly it was cool.
SSJ4 is somehow not awful and worked so well that even people who hate GT ask for SSJ4 to be added in games and whatnot. I think it helped.

Anything after just feels ridiculous:
SSJG: Talk about underwhelming, even in its debut it didn't feel like an epic transformation, just like another thing Goku got.
SSJGSS: So just back to SSJ but now blue hair.
Ultra whatever? Hard to get hyped about 7th or whatever transformation, there'll just be another one for next villain.
As for what exactly goes on there… This is more or less it:
t
Piccolo was eventually sort of killed by Goku but he spat out an egg containing a more powerful copy of himself who is treated as the same individual as the original (which on some level, he has to be the same one because the lifeforce of Kami and Piccolo is the same, meaning they both die if one of them die) but isn't as inherently evil, this is the version of Piccolo we see throughout most of the series. This new Piccolo learns that he still isn't powerful enough to defeat Goku so he puts his conquest on hold until he is confident enough to take him on. When Vegeta was going to show up, he decided to train Gohan (Goku's son) and bonded with him, thus learning what it means to care about someone. He eventually sacrifices himself to save Gohan but this also killed Kami (remember, they are still technically the same person) and because Kami created the Dragon Balls, this negates them.

In order to resurrect everyone, they go to Piccolo's homeworld to find other Dragon Balls and when they do, they bring Piccolo and Kami back to life so Piccolo can aid in their battle against Freeza and use the earth's Dragon Balls again. On this planet, Piccolo assimilates another of his kind to become stronger and get some knowledge needed to defeat Freeza, the exact effect this has on his identity or personality seems unclear, though he seems to become more analytical after this.

When Cell shows up, Piccolo and Kami decide to rejoin to make sure they're powerful enough to defeat him. This time around, remerging has a clear effect on him. He seems to have no trace of evil left in him, he seems to recall his time as both Piccolo and Kami in equal regard, a few characters refer to him as having been both, declares that he had no name because he was once again the same individual as that alien child and only goes by Piccolo because he probably needs a name anyway. This is the version of Piccolo seen in BoG.

In order to simplify this:

Version 1: Alien Orphan
Version 2 and 3: God of Earth and the Demon King split in two
Version 4: Recreated Demon King
Version 5: Recreated Demon King with an Alien Warrior absorbed
Version 6: Version 5 and Version 2 combined into something that thinks of himself as Version 1


I disagree with some of that, especially since this includes retcons that happened later which I think lessens the impact of who King Piccolo was. Originally he IS a demon, not this from another planet alien orphan story he got in DBZ. Picccolo was the embodiment of evil, and yes the first retcon we get is that he was Kamisamas evil being but whatever.

But Piccolo isn't meant to be the original Piccolo. King Piccolo even names him his son before he dies, hell they existed together for a few seconds if you really think about it. Even his name at first is Piccolo Jr./Majunia to make you know he's a different person. Yes he is the incarnation of King Piccolo but it's like in Avatar, Korra is the reincarnation of the Avatar but he's not actually Aang.

Now when he merges with Nail he does say he won't do anything to affect his personlity, but not because he can't just he didn't want to intrude but the way it's stated I feel like he could if he really wanted to and I think in a way he did. Even dende recognizes him as Nail. He clearly has his memories.

Even in the android saga Piccolo says he is the reincarnation of King Piccolo and still evil (ignore krillin speech). I don't necessarily think merging with Kami or Nail necessarily made him "good". It's also mentioned in the show how Piccolo Jr was never as evil as his father and his bond with Gohan and later sacrifice is what changed him.

Fusing with Kamisama the deal ends up being he'll only give him his strength and memories. He only fuses because he knows Piccolo is no longer evil. And Goku recognizes him easily as Kamisama/Piccolo together.

All this nonsense just to say that Akira Toriyama was very inconsistent so that makes it easy to argue one way or another. I don't think he cared much and just changed it as he remembered or was convinient.

[Mad Dog McMutt]

It did get pretty silly in Z with all of the SS transformations. In my opinion that was a huge weakness in the Cell and Buu sagas. In the Cell saga there was an ascended saiyin, then an ascension beyond that, then Super saiyin 2. Fans still argue about all of those ascension levels. DBZ is so good though it was allowed a couple of flaws and that was one. That flaw carried over to Super to a much greater extent though. I am so sick of transormations. In my opinion peak Dragonball is from the very first episode of DB to the end of Frieza. I still like the Cell and Buu sagas though just not as much.

[neatoman]

I disagree with some of that, especially since this includes retcons that happened later which I think lessens the impact of who King Piccolo was. Originally he IS a demon, not this from another planet alien orphan story he got in DBZ. Picccolo was the embodiment of evil, and yes the first retcon we get is that he was Kamisamas evil being but whatever.

But Piccolo isn't meant to be the original Piccolo. King Piccolo even names him his son before he dies, hell they existed together for a few seconds if you really think about it. Even his name at first is Piccolo Jr./Majunia to make you know he's a different person. Yes he is the incarnation of King Piccolo but it's like in Avatar, Korra is the reincarnation of the Avatar but he's not actually Aang.

Now when he merges with Nail he does say he won't do anything to affect his personlity, but not because he can't just he didn't want to intrude but the way it's stated I feel like he could if he really wanted to and I think in a way he did. Even dende recognizes him as Nail. He clearly has his memories.

Even in the android saga Piccolo says he is the reincarnation of King Piccolo and still evil (ignore krillin speech). I don't necessarily think merging with Kami or Nail necessarily made him "good". It's also mentioned in the show how Piccolo Jr was never as evil as his father and his bond with Gohan and later sacrifice is what changed him.

Fusing with Kamisama the deal ends up being he'll only give him his strength and memories. He only fuses because he knows Piccolo is no longer evil. And Goku recognizes him easily as Kamisama/Piccolo together.

All this nonsense just to say that Akira Toriyama was very inconsistent so that makes it easy to argue one way or another. I don't think he cared much and just changed it as he remembered or was convinient.

I'm not going to dispute that it is confusing and inconsistent, or that the writer didn't fully remember what he had established all the time. Much of it is up to interpretation and a purely objective sense, the reincarnated Piccolo can't quite be the same individual Goku killed. And yes, it is doubtful the alien origin was initially considered.

But the thing is that it is explicitly clear that the reincarnated Piccolo and Kami still have their lifeforces intertwined as if the reincarnation is a direct continuation of the old one. Kami survived because the old Piccolo spat out the egg, he died when the new one died and he came back to life when he did. Coupled with the fact that he seems to have the memories of the old Piccolo leaves me to think the intended interpretation (retcons accounted for) is that the new Piccolo is basically the same character as the old one, just in a different body.