What does Peter Laird think of the direction TMNT took in since he sold it?

[Prowler]

It's been around a decade or so since Laird sold the property to Nick/Viacom.


I don't think he's spoken about the direction of the franchise since then, after all he no longer owns it. But I do wonder how he feels about it. That is, if he's paying attention at all.

I'd say either he just doesn't care at all anymore since it's no longer his responsibility, or he just thinks his Turtles are no longer recognisable at all. That being said, Laird is old now and probably enjoying his retirement.

[Andrew NDB]

He's only commented gently on the early IDW stuff and I think that he planned to watch 2014 at some point. He's diplomatically said he's happy if Kevin is happy working on TMNT stuff again... but that's about it.

I suspect he avoids looking at it all but he would almost assuredly hate all of these universes if he did. They're all about things he fought to shield TMNT from for years and years.

[Prowler]

He's only commented gently on the early IDW stuff and I think that he planned to watch 2014 at some point. He's diplomatically said he's happy if Kevin is happy working on TMNT stuff again... but that's about it.

I suspect he avoids looking at it all but he would almost assuredly hate all of these universes if he did. They're all about things he fought to shield TMNT from for years and years.
I know right? There's no way Peter Laird would ever approve most of those creative decisions.

I remember being excited about the sale because it meant TMNT wouldn't die, but looking back, if I knew what we were going to get, I'd rather have the franchise end at Turtles Forever.

TMNT took the whole multiple universes thing too far. I can no longer explain simply to a random person who's never seen TMNT what the hell the franchise is about or what each character is like anymore. So I've decided to just not recognise the existence of the post-sale stuff. Its easier for me that way. I'm not part of whatever audience Nick/Viacom are catering to.

[Leo656]

He's too polite of a guy to say what he really thinks out loud. But anyone who knows anything about him at all knows that he'd be furious if he actually paid any attention at all to what's been going on the last ten years.

I'm sure he tries his best to avoid it at all costs. I'm sure well-meaning but unknowing people try and send him stuff online, figuring he'd be interested. And I'm sure some of it slips through despite him trying to avoid it, and I'm sure that every bit of it kills him a little more inside. BUT, he knew what would happen when he took the money.

On one hand, it's heartbreaking. On the other hand, he did take the money and he had to know what was gonna happen, especially with someone like Nickelodeon in charge.

But yeah, I'm sure if he knew the half of it, he'd be even more of the mindset of "God dammit, I wish I'd never even created this f*cking thing." Which he's admitted is a thought he's had to push back from a few times already.

[Prowler]

He's too polite of a guy to say what he really thinks out loud. But anyone who knows anything about him at all knows that he'd be furious if he actually paid any attention at all to what's been going on the last ten years.

I'm sure he tries his best to avoid it at all costs. I'm sure well-meaning but unknowing people try and send him stuff online, figuring he'd be interested. And I'm sure some of it slips through despite him trying to avoid it, and I'm sure that every bit of it kills him a little more inside. BUT, he knew what would happen when he took the money.

On one hand, it's heartbreaking. On the other hand, he did take the money and he had to know what was gonna happen, especially with someone like Nickelodeon in charge.

But yeah, I'm sure if he knew the half of it, he'd be even more of the mindset of "God dammit, I wish I'd never even created this f*cking thing." Which he's admitted is a thought he's had to push back from a few times already.

Yeah basically.

I'm sure he knew it was going against his vision. But it probably turned out even worse than he had imagined.

I wonder if at this point, he's just ashamed of being one of the creators of TMNT. I know he's a rather low profile person and all, but really, look at the state of the property. What incentive does Peter Laird have to get himself in the spotlight? I'm not sure he wants to be known by the general public anymore.

[Leo656]

I mean, he's always seemed "a little ashamed".

TMNT was never supposed to be his "life's work"; by all accounts, he had aspirations to be a "real" writer, and once he became "The Turtles guy" that was simply never, ever going to happen. And while the millions of dollars probably soothed that heartbreak to a point, it's a bitter pill to swallow when you're typecast into One Thing when you have dreams and aspirations that go far beyond that.

I think that's part of why Vol. 4 was what it was, and why it was kind of a mess. He had other types of stories he wanted to tell, other themes and whatnot, but he knew the only avenue he'd ever get to even address any of those things was within a TMNT comic, and so even though it wasn't a great fit for the material, he did his best to fit it in there since it was the only shot he'd ever get. And the result was what it was. "Maybe this isn't the TMNT people want, but it's my only shot to get some things off my chest and out into the world."

I envision him as someone who had a yearning to be a "serious artist" and got "trapped" in Commercial Hell. And I think he has a lot of resentment about that, but does his best to be grateful because at least he got rich and famous. But I get the feeling he's always been rather discontented all the same. Rich or not, "Life didn't work out the way I wanted it to", and also, most people only like the "bad versions" of the thing he created, the versions he openly despises. THAT has got to eat him up inside.

I mean, imagine how many times in a lifetime he had to hear some variation of, "I just LOVE TMNT, and I'm SO glad you created it! I just LOVE Krang and Bebop and Rocksteady, and coming up with Venus was SO amazing and inspiring for little girls, and..." Like, HOW hard do you think it must have been for him to not just puke all over the table whenever some well-meaning but ignorant person started gushing at him about that? You know it had to have happened, a lot, and I'm betting it was insanely difficult for him to just swallow his tongue and be like, "Yeah, well... thanks."

I've always been open, I don't really like his style of writing or his political opinions BUT at the same time I have always felt a little bad for the guy.

Long, LONG time ago, I was in preliminary talks with an independent comic book publisher to do some work on an anthology book of theirs using a character I'd created. In the end, I couldn't bring myself to do it, because I wouldn't have full say in how the character was used and I just couldn't stand the thought of someone "beating up my kid".

Laird's had to watch people "beat up his kid" since the day said kid was "born", more or less. And yeah, he knew that was likely, but he probably didn't know HOW bad it would get and it probably bothers him more than most fans could really understand. To them, it's either "His stuff brought joy to millions of people, he should just be happy about it," or "It made him rich, he should just be happy about it."

And I'm sure he is, to a point... but many things can be true at once. So I think on some level, he definitely wishes he could un-do the entire thing. He's hinted as much a few times.

Poor guy. I'd have a beer with him. Not sure how much we'd have to talk about, but I'd be open to the experience.

[Prowler]

Those are very good points, indeed.

Honestly, wasn't the first ever TMNT issue supposed to be just a one shot thing? I mean, the Turtles kill Shredder in the very first issue. That seemed pretty conclusive.

Did Eastman and Laird even think it would spawn a long comic book series with comercially successful movie and cartoon adaptations?

And besides, we all know or suspect they were high and/or drunk when they come up with the concept. What kind of sober person would come up with such a concept even drawing a turtle with a talking brain in its stomach? :lol:

Yes, that happens to a lot of people. Life often doesn't turn out the way we want it to. A similar case is James Rolfe. He's always wanted to be a movie director and movies are his true passion... but he ended up becoming known for reviewing bad video games in a peculiar way.

[Leo656]

Yeah, and many people have noted that at times Rolfe comes off as feeling a little "trapped" by his situation as well.

There's times he makes a joke or uses one of his "catchphrases", and the look he gives to the camera just SCREAMS, "Yep. 20 years in, still saying 'Sh*tload of F*ck'. Because if I don't, people wonder Why not. I know, it's corny, it's tired, but THEY WON'T LET ME STOP!" He's done other stuff with the channel, too, but most of it never got the traction the Nerd stuff did. I did like "Board James", although one could argue there was a short shelf life on that premise since there haven't really been any "iconic" board games since the early-90s anyway, and the fact that things went into completely bizarre territory by the end of it sort of hints that he just didn't know what else to do with it by then.

I mean, a cynical person like me might be like, "Just don't have kids, then if you feel 'trapped' in your career situation by middle age you can try and shift gears into something else with a lot less risk involved, and if it doesn't take off it's not the end of the world." Since both Laird and Rolfe (among others) have said that starting a family meant they didn't have as many opportunities to take risks with their careers, their livelihoods were dependent on maintaining the status quo and so any other dreams they had went to the back burner. On a surface level, it seems "Just don't have kids, then you can do what you want" would be the simplest solution, BUT I allow that's a very cynical perspective which is also coming from a person who does not like kids.

[Prowler]

I don't know if Laird would have led a successful live or not if the TMNT never took off, since I haven't checked any other stuff he's worked on outside the Turtle sphere. But James... yeah not trying to be mean, but I doubt more than two hundred people on Earth would have any idea who he is if Mike Matei hadn't convinced him to upload the first 2 Nerd episodes onto youtube in 2006. James not only is an independent film maker, but his movies are also horror movies. That's a niche within a niche.

And his only movie people can name is the AVGN film, which was lousy.

The only way for his audience to care about James film making skills is by making use of them in his AVGN episodes. I've never bothered watching Monster Madness and other of his horror movie reviews because I'm not a horror fan and don't even know the vast majority of those movies. I only check his movie reviews when he reviews a movie like Rocky or Back to the Future or something.

He'll always be known as the Nerd. And is trapped in thst role forever. Even if he stopped doing AVGN forever tomorrow, I'm not sure he'd be anyone special in the indie movie business.

[Andrew NDB]

He's too polite of a guy to say what he really thinks out loud. But anyone who knows anything about him at all knows that he'd be furious if he actually paid any attention at all to what's been going on the last ten years.

Of course. Which is probably why he honestly has made an effort not to look at any of it. Might make him regret, etc..

But also there's the cordial aspect of it. A company gives you 60 million dollars to buy your property... it's really not very nice to turn around and start badmouthing what they're doing with it a few years later. #1, you could've easily stopped that from happening by not selling to them, and #2, now you're sounding like a sad sack. Lose-lose.

I'm sure he knew it was going against his vision. But it probably turned out even worse than he had imagined.

Far worse. There isn't even like, one TMNT thing post-sale out there that's anywhere remotely in line with anything he was about with TMNT. Nothing. Everything he fought against has just been doubled-down on, tripled-down on in every way imaginable.

"Mutant Town"? A bunch of female turtles? Tons of mutants and humans hooking up? Turtles in no way, shape or form being unique or isolated or anything? Hulk-sized and bulletproof Turtles with tons of accessories in the last movies? Donnie wearing glasses in everything now? Jesus... intentional or not, it's like almost every single little thing done post-sale with TMNT has been designed to fail the "Things Peter would Allow" rulebook.

I wonder if at this point, he's just ashamed of being one of the creators of TMNT. I know he's a rather low profile person and all, but really, look at the state of the property. What incentive does Peter Laird have to get himself in the spotlight? I'm not sure he wants to be known by the general public anymore.

I think one thing that was really starting to bother him about, you know, the "Ask PL" bits towards the end when he was still doing them was all of the questions from fans to him about IDW or the Bay movies or the 2012 cartoon. Lots of questions about how he feels about this going on, or that going on while he was constantly responding like, "I have no idea, I haven't seen any of it." Like, rubbing his face in what was going on without actually doing do. I wager he grew to not like that one bit.

But that's just speculation on my part.

[Prowler]

It is a little sad that Laird no longer owns ir has any say anymore on TMNT, something he created alongside Eastman.

It was his decision to sell the property sure, but still. Im sure He appreciates the money and no longer being burden by TMNT, but he's gotta regret his decision even if just a little. And I'm sure him not keeping up with it ever since he sold it kinda proves it. It would just be too painful for him, most likely, to see the current state of his creation.

Oh well.

[Leo656]

Oh, definitely.

It's like Alan Grant and Norm Breyfogle creating the Batman villain Anarky. Grant, in particular, hasn't paid any attention to what DC has done with the character since he stopped writing the character many years ago. Whenever he's been asked about DC's use of Anarky since he walked away from it, he's like "I have no idea. I made it a point to never pay any attention to what other writers have done with the character. I knew I gave up any ownership when we did the deal, I knew other writers would go on to use the character I created, but in some cases it's SO much not at all the character I came up with that you can either pay attention to it and get mad, despite being in no position to do anything about it, or just kind of pretend it doesn't exist so it's out of sight and out of mind."

Again, the "watching someone else beat up your kid" thing.

[Andrew NDB]

And to be further speculative... yeah, I'm sure for the first few years he really did feel a sense of being relieved of a huge burden, and then in rediscovering the simple things in life. And spending more time with family and all.

But it's not 2009 anymore. It's 2022. It's been 13 years since he cashed that check. Maybe he feels the same as he did in 2009 and maybe he doesn't... but it's been a while. 13 years is a long time to come back around to miss being in the driver's seat.

But maybe not.

[AquaParade]

I actually have to imagine that he should know the sale of the franchise to Nickelodeon could have gone way worse than it has.

I mean, I don't think Nick has done a great job, but when I think of what it could have been....it's not so bad. Hard to blame 2014/PD film on them, wasn't that already in motion?
2012 was surprisingly decent - it feels like authentic tmnt, despite whatever Laird-rules are being broken. The comics are going stronger than they were under his guidance, and despite rules broken there, it does, over the majority of it's run, maintain a sense of integrity and utilize authentic, passionate creators.

I mean, when I first heard of the sale, I think I expected everything to basically be "Rise of TMNT", which is like the worst possible combination of TMNTxSpongebob.

So I'm not disagreeing with you guys, but I actually think that it could be a situation where if he just looks in the mirror, he realizes it ain't as ugly as he thought. Like, it's not good, but I would have expected worse from TMNT under Nickelodeon, quite honestly. They could have dropped all the action elements, turned one of them into the girl of the team, etc.

[Leo656]

I'm sure that whenever he gets any inkling at all at just HOW bad things have gotten - and no matter how deep his head has been in the sand since 2009, at least SOME of it has to have crossed his eyes at various points - a part of him wishes he still had the authority to try and "fix" everything. But at the same time, "What's done is done" and all that.

Like, the worst of it has to be that knowing for a fact whatever he truly intended TMNT to be or represent is gone forever, and the true potential of the characters and their stories will never, ever, ever be realized, because all anyone wants is wacky mutants and pizza puns. People THINK that was the point, they WANT that to be the point, but that was NEVER the point. All the stuff about "misfits" and "outcasts" and "family is what you make of it" and "life, at best, is bittersweet" stuff... it's all only ever going to be paid lip service to, briefly, in-between goofy gags and bad puns.

He intended for TMNT to be "about" something. It's not anymore, and it never will be again. And what's more, nobody even wants it to be. They're fine with the slapstick and bad jokes. They're fine with the pizza obsession and dimwitted villains and nonsensical mutant sidekicks. It's what they WANT, even though none of it was ever the point.

THAT has to f*cking hurt the most.

[Andrew NDB]

Hard to blame 2014/PD film on them, wasn't that already in motion?

Yeah, but he was still very much in a place to say "No" to anything whack that would be brought to his attention. And would've, long before any serious production began. Alien TMNT would never have made it even as far as it did as a script, and certainly not white guy Shredder. Or really anything in those movies. Probably a version of that Fusco script we heard great things about but has never leaked is what we would've gotten.

2012 was surprisingly decent - it feels like authentic tmnt, despite whatever Laird-rules are being broken.

Yeah, 2012 was surprisingly OK. It was like a smarter Fred Wolf with a dark kind of winking at the audience I enjoyed. Bearable, to be sure.

The comics are going stronger than they were under his guidance, and despite rules broken there, it does, over the majority of it's run, maintain a sense of integrity and utilize authentic, passionate creators.

If by stronger you mean out on more racks and getting more spinoffs and this and that, then sure.

And it wasn't like Peter ever had a shortage of authentic, passionate creators around him. He just wasn't afraid to ever tell them "no" whenever they'd ask stuff like, "But what about Bebop?" or "How about more mutants?" or so on.

[AquaParade]

Good point about 2014 film - He still could have prevented it, pre-sale. And yeah, that Fusco script not happening is one of the biggest bummers.

[Leo656]

As good as the 1990 movie was...

If someone from The Future had told you Then, "This is by far the best TMNT movie that will EVER be made, and believe me, they're not gonna stop trying but it's all just going to get worse and worse and WORSE until you'd just wish they'd stop trying... so no, yeah, this movie is It, it literally gets no better than this..."

...Would you have believed them? Part of me wouldn't have been completely surprised BUT at the same time I'd be shocked that in 30 years and so many technological advances they'd continued to do nothing but regress. Something like that wouldn't have even seemed possible, to me.

But then, 8-year old me still had hope and faith in people. 10-year old me probably would've been cynical enough to understand.

[Andrew NDB]

If someone from The Future had told you Then, "This is by far the best TMNT movie that will EVER be made, and believe me, they're not gonna stop trying but it's all just going to get worse and worse and WORSE until you'd just wish they'd stop trying... so no, yeah, this movie is It, it literally gets no better than this..."

...Would you have believed them?

Right after TMNT 1990? No, probably not. After TMNT III? Honestly, maybe yeah. I was only about 12 when I saw it, but I remember kind of feeling crushed when it was over and I left the theater. Up through about the point where TMNT 2007 was really taking shape, though, I definitely held high hopes that one day they would "get it right." I had diminished hopes for such up until the sale in 2009, then 0 hopes afterward. Nothing that happened with 2014 or 2016 (which I still haven't seen) is remotely surprising to me.

This sounds horrible of me, but for me the best, most enjoyable thing to come out of the TMNT movies since 1990 was watching 2016 crash and fail and kill that whole universe and fans' notions of "b-b-but if we just got the big, dumb Bebop and Rocksteady and Krang movie it would make 20 billion dollars!" in one fell swoop. That was really good stuff.

[Leo656]

Oh, yeah, definitely.

I'm admittedly rather spiteful. And while I never outright HATED the idea of doing a FW-inspired movie, and I knew such a film was an inevitability and in theory could be done in a way that would at least be satisfying to some folks who count FW as their favorite TMNT material... all the years and years of people insisting that "ALL they need to do is put Krang, Bebop, Rocksteady and the Technodrome in a movie, and it will be the biggest and bestest TMNT movie EV-AR!" had worn me down. To the point where, yeah, seeing them finally do all that stuff AND have the movie actually LOSE money was perversely satisfying to me.

Like, they insisted there was a "magic bullet", and in the end said "magic bullet" turned around and shot them right in the face. "Whoops".

I'd argue that the "magic bullet" would be, "Just make a TMNT movie that isn't paint-chip-eating stupid and doesn't treat the audience like utter morons." But see, that's why people like me aren't allowed to make movies. "Treat the audience like morons" is kind of like a Main Rule.

[AquaParade]

Luckily for me, my love of the 1990 film increases everytime I watch it. I think the Baron cut would be the film in it's pure form, but I'm pretty damn happy with the film we got, despite a few small hang-ups.

It'd be cooler if the turtles were raised as assassins to take on Saki, but what they have works fine. It has all the heart you could want, nails the characters, a mostly faithful story, with a nice dose of grit and grunge from the comics - and that's including the script down to the grainy camera lens - it feels independent just like those early Mirage books.

I love that damn movie.

[Leo656]

Yeah, I wouldn't exactly say "my love for it grows" - I mean, it can't get much bigger than "My all-time favorite TMNT thing and essentially the only TMNT thing I care enough about to revisit with any frequency at all" - but I definitely keep finding new things to like, or things I appreciate more Now than I did Then.

Like, it's not perfect. But as far as what any TMNT movie that was made and/or distributed through the Hollywood system could ever be... it's about as "perfect" as it would ever have been "allowed" to be.

Like, a "pure" Mirage movie was and is never going to happen; the material is too obscure and off the mark from what people "expect" of TMNT, and was even more so in the pre-internet age when the only TMNT comics anyone knew about were the Archie ones, and mostly not even those. So anyone holding out hope for that kind of thing, Then or Now, was wishing for way too much.

Likewise, a total FW-based movie back then was impossible for budget reasons; they could barely have functional Ninja Turtles, so forget the Technodrome or any of that stuff. Never gonna happen back then.

The best-case scenario for anyone was basically the movie we got. The broad strokes of A with some of the recognizable trappings of B.

Seeing how they immediately sh*t the bed with the second movie further reinforces the idea that the original film was just a perfect storm of things that could never be recreated after that one time. There was too much money at stake, after that. Too many fingers in the pie, too many conflicting visions fighting for control of the project.

We'll never NOT have that. Which is why all future TMNT movie are doomed to be various flavors of suck no matter what, barring some unforeseen miracle.

But yeah, the original is one of those movies I watch and every time can't help but go, "Man, they really don't make 'em like this anymore."

[Andrew NDB]

In a micro level of the original Star Wars' movie's macro level... everything working against it (budget, time, etc.) actually worked for its benefit. It looks grimey and dirty and ill-lit and it should. It was the perfect atmosphere, even if I don't agree with some of the choices otherwise.

Then they get a good budget for part 2 and it's everything the first one isn't. It's polished, overly camp, too many people involved and they did the worst thing they could've done which is kowtow to parents. Some great effects work in 2 but it's pretty soulless.

[Leo656]

Oh, man, visually it's like everything it "should" be. Like, some of the Scotch tape and chicken wire shows up here and there, but I mean, that's Movie Sh*t. That movie is so completely how TMNT looks in my head. That's what most of the characters sound like, too. It's so spot-on.

Funny story, and I mentioned this to someone yesterday. It's weird how I've always been a guy who pays attention, and yet, despite the fact that I watched both the 1990 TMNT movie as well as the Police Academy movies hundreds of times growing up, along with Leo being my favorite character and everything... it took me a WHILE before it fully clicked that the Japanese guy fawning over Callahan's tits in three straight movies was actually Leo's voice in the TMNT movie. :lol: I'd be like "Brian Tochi, Brian Tochi... rings a bell, but I'm not sure from where..." And then one day it was like, "Waaaait... what? Dude, no way!" :lol:

I like that voice for him a lot. Like, he tries to be assertive and bold, but still comes off as young-ish and has a subtle bit of a "lovable dork" quality that some of the cartoons didn't quite nail for me, with the kind of dry sense of humor and everything. Cam Clarke's voice is obviously iconic, and I'm a big fan of it, but it also got a little self-parodying at times, and often a bit too whiny for my tastes. The 4Kids cartoon was good, but often sounded a bit older than the character is supposed to be, and also rather stiff and over-the-top at times, like a bit too "super-hero", if that makes any sense. But Leo in the movies is exactly spot-on, for me.

But like I said, first movie got pretty much everyone's voices right, to me. I know not everyone loves Feld-dawg as Donnie, but al I can say to that is "C'mon, it's Feld-Dawg, he's a gift and we should be grateful." :lol: Although if I'd been he, I would've fought for a scene where Donnie does a Moonwalk into a little twirl and pose, just to complete the whole "Donnie Is Corey Feldman" circle. Maybe Donnie could have briefly worn a black fedora and dark sunglasses while doing so. Then I'd say that it was "perfect".

As is, still quite excellent. But man, that would've sealed it.

[AquaParade]

Feldman as Donatello works great for me. Actually, all four of those characters are probably my favorite versions if them, aside from maybe the Mirage versions, which is a tough comparison.

No one feels pigeonholed. Leo is focused and attentive to Splinter and the family but still goofs off with the others, we laugh with Mikey because he's funny, instead of at him for being an idiot, Raphael is all kinds of emotional, and Donatello felt textured as well because he had a sense of humor but was also reflective and intelligent.

[LeotheLateBloomer]

As good as the 1990 movie was...

If someone from The Future had told you Then, "This is by far the best TMNT movie that will EVER be made, and believe me, they're not gonna stop trying but it's all just going to get worse and worse and WORSE until you'd just wish they'd stop trying... so no, yeah, this movie is It, it literally gets no better than this..."

People remember the 1990 movie so fondly that it makes me wonder why they don't try learning or emulating off of that film.

As for this topic, I'm sure Peter has to regret it to some extent. I know he wouldn't want TMNT to churn out the way Viacom is doing them. But I don't think any company would handle TMNT the way he would. Others just see it as a cash-cow where they rather go back to what they're familiar or do something that's far off spectrum like Rise. And that can be frustrating.

It makes you wonder if he had considered DC, Marvel, Image, or Dark Horse. Would they have handled the property any better? I believe DC would do a much better job but even Batman vs TMNT had it's flaws that kind of rubbed me the wrong way. It is the one of the best things we've received since the buyout though.

Would Kevin Eastman had been interested in buying the property back then? I know he left the property before Laird sold it but was he ever on thought? I will always prefer how Laird handles the property over Eastman but I wonder how Eastman would run it if he owned it. He wouldn't have to be a "yes man" to a lot of decisions being made right now.

[Coola Yagami]

eh.... I would only want the TMNT with Marvel or DC as long as they were just published by them and not part of their greater universe. Yeah, crossovers are cool now and then, but I wouldn't want to see silly stuff like Shredder working with The Hand, or Donatello being part of the Justice League or such nonsense.

[Anarchistguy]

What does Peter Laird think of TMNT now that it's literally become EVERYTHING he fought so hard to prevent?

My guess is he's probably trying to avoid any contact with the franchise as much as he can.

[Prowler]

Since I was only born in November of 1990, I obviously didn't get to see the original TMNT movie until several years later on TV. I believe I first watched it in... 2002? So I cannot answer that question.

But, if you told me around 2005 or so that there'd be 2 more TMNT cartoons after 2k3 and that the whole franchise would become worse and regress to a Pseudo-FW pandering mess, I'd not have believed you. During the time 2k3 was on, the franchise seemed to have completely ignore all its FW elements. I didn't think it would be possible to recover from that now that a new generation was growing with a different interation that was closer to the original source.

And if you had told me in 2007 that the live actions movies coming after the CGI TMNT animated film would be WAY worse, I'd definitely have not believed you.