Is there a reason the FW cartoon stopped airing in the US after 1997?

[neatoman]

From my understanding, the Fred Wolf cartoon has not aired in re-runs since 1997, one year after it aired it's final episode. This is curious as the show "managed" to reach syndication standards very early on and has almost three times as many episodes needed for syndication. So... Why did stop airing so shortly after finishing?

[Leo656]

Good question, one which Google seemingly has no answer for either.

My guess would be, a surface reason might be that USA Network's deal to air the reruns in syndication expired and since the brand wasn't that popular anymore they (and other networks) decided that it would cost too much money to cut a new deal for the episodes. There's reasons why that theory both Would and Would Not make sense, but it's all I can come up with. Especially since USA Network did the exact same thing with "He-Man and the Masters of the Universe", "G.I. Joe: A Real American Hero", and "The Real Ghostbusters" before TMNT; they purchased exclusive syndication rights to the shows upon their completion, ran them daily as part of their "Cartoon Express" block, and once their contract was up no other network ever purchased the shows or aired them ever again. So they ALL just faded out after USA was done with them, until their eventual DVD release and all the fanfare that went along with that.

It bears keeping in mind, the entire idea of re-running old cartoon shows in high volume was a bit of a novel idea back then to begin with. USA and Nickelodeon were somewhat pioneers in that regard; conventional thinking back then was simply, "Kids don't like Old Shows", so when a show was done it might get a couple extra years in syndication but it wasn't a guarantee, and after that it would just go away because the expectation was that nobody wanted to watch it again.

Lest we forget, Cartoon Network was just starting to bubble around that time and was considered a huge risk because "Nobody wants to watch old cartoons from when they were 5." And initially, when it was predominantly old reruns of stuff like Thundercats and Super-Friends, the ratings supported that line of thinking. It wasn't until they shifted gears heavily and started pandering to stoners and anime fans with their late-night lineup that they had any real success. The standard "just play cartoons that were popular a few years ago" model wasn't paying off for them at all. People begged for years, "Someone should bring Thundercats back in reruns!" Then Cartoon Network did exactly that and nobody watched it.

All of those above-mentioned shows had enough episodes for syndication and were hugely popular in their initial run, so modern-day thinking assumes they would all have had a long and successful "second life" on cable rather than just an extra year or two. And yet, none of them did, so it's not just a TMNT thing. Thus, I'm forced to look at the entire business of television reruns in the mid-90s and theorize that the general idea among programming directors was, "Adults like old shows, kids just think they're Old Shows" and thus there'd be no point in keeping them around. I mean even Disney Channel wasn't still running reruns of Rescue Rangers in 1995, and they owned the show outright; they (probably) just figured nobody would care, so they aired newer shows like Aladdin and The Little Mermaid instead.

I mean, this is all just speculation on my part but I'm pretty sure it's right. I can't fathom any other reason why NO popular kids' cartoon from the 80s or 90s had more than an extra year or two in syndication, or why they went away when USA Network dropped them. If it were just TMNT, you could speculate "the fad was just over" or whatever, but the fact that it happened to EVERY cartoon show means it had to be something else entirely.

[MikeandRaph87]

I did not realize it was beyond TMNT, I was just in 4th grade and had no sources for information. It just stopped airing before Labor Day 1997 on both CBS Saturday mornings and USA Network. The other shows either I barley remember or did not watch,but I guess its 'misery loves company' but good to know it was not just TMNT (1987). I thought the fad was over and focus was set on the Next Mutation. I never understood why Viacom has not even put the cartoon on Pluto TV or even add it to any of its extra channels. I always assumed ownership of the show was not clear.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

"Kids don't like Old Shows"

Back then, with no Internet around, I just watched the cartoons I liked, often without any idea what was old and what was new. All I knew was:

*The Flintstones were popular when my parents were young.

*He-Man and the Masters of the Universe and Transformers were popular when I was younger

*The Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles are popular now.

I never knew the age of the Superfriends, James Bond Junior, Real Ghostbusters, Scooby Doo, Yogi Bear, Dastardly and Muttley in Their Flying Machines or even Disney cartoons like Darkwing Duck, Rescue Rangers, Ducktales, Talespin.

[Leo656]

MikeandRaph: Nah, it was pretty universal among cartoons back then. The first one I *noticed* it happening with was He-Man, since that was my favorite, but even before then Thundercats and Voltron had quietly slipped into oblivion almost immediately after their first run had ended, and they didn't even get the courtesy of an extra year or two of repeats on USA Network. They just vanished as if they never existed.

He-Man actually had a much better post-series run than most shows did, as the show ended in 1985 but remained on the air in daily reruns, mostly on USA Network, until September 1990. The fact that it had been so popular, as well as the fact that She-Ra had sort of carried the brand in animation until 1987, probably led to it having a longer "second life" than most cartoons got. But even then, after 1990 it was like it just vanished until the DVDs came out. And almost no other cartoon was that lucky, to have five years of reruns after it was cancelled. It just wasn't how things were done back then.

TMNT had a long contract with USA Network as well, as I believe they started running repeats of that show as far back as 1993, but I'm talking specifically about how long a cartoon stayed on the air in reruns post-cancellation. For most of the time TMNT was on USA un repeats, new episodes were still being shown on Saturday mornings, and it was common for most shows to be syndicated on multiple channels while they were "fresh"; it's after they were cancelled that they tended to vanish in just a year or two. Likewise, about a year after they stopped making new TMNT episodes, USA stopped airing reruns.

Believe it or not, I think Speed Racer has a ton to do with cartoon shows having a post-life resurgence. When NOW Comics published their Speed Racer comic book in the late-80s, it was a bit of a curiosity for older fans who remembered the cartoon from decades earlier (NOW Comics, for those who weren't there, was a bit like the late-80s version of IDW, in that they specialized in licensed comics based on famous pop culture brands). When MTV started airing the Speed Racer cartoon late at nights around 1992 or so, it was an unexpected hit... and then suddenly, other channels started airing it, and then there was a SNES video game, VHS tapes, action figures and toys, a reboot series... all for this cartoon show that had been almost entirely off the air since 1968 and hadn't even been in reruns in years! There was even some talk of a live-action movie, which obviously did not come to pass until 2008 or so. But point being, this "dead" cartoon show was suddenly a minor phenomenon, out of nowhere.

And I think that probably started the conversation about whether or not some of these "old" cartoons could still have significant value. It wasn't the final word, since that brand's popularity fell off again fairly quickly and it still took a few years for people to come around as far as airing older cartoons in general. But I wouldn't be surprised if that was in some ways the beginning. "Man, kids really like this old Japanese race car show, maybe they'll watch other old cartoons? Couldn't hurt to find out."

But nah, it definitely wasn't just TMNT. When cartoons were done, they were just Done, back then.

Seems silly in hindsight since nowadays nostalgia is big business. But once upon a time, even the concept of a "rerun" was baffling to TV executives. "Why would people watch something they already saw?" Some older shows and movies from the "Golden Age" are gone forever, destroyed because someone with no foresight figured nobody would ever care to watch them again. It took a shockingly long time for people to come around on the idea that yeah, people actually like to rewatch things.

So I guess it shouldn't be all that shocking that TV executives in 1990-whatever figured kids who watched a show 100 times wouldn't have the patience to sit through it for 101. Now, we know that's silly. At the time, I guess it made sense, kind of.

Back then, with no Internet around, I just watched the cartoons I liked, often without any idea what was old and what was new. All I knew was:

*The Flintstones were popular when my parents were young.

*He-Man and the Masters of the Universe and Transformers were popular when I was younger

*The Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles are popular now.

I never knew the age of the Superfriends, James Bond Junior, Real Ghostbusters, Scooby Doo, Yogi Bear, Dastardly and Muttley in Their Flying Machines or even Disney cartoons like Darkwing Duck, Rescue Rangers, Ducktales, Talespin.

Similar experience, but even when I was a kid most of the "older" cartoons I watched like Flintstones and other Hannah-Barbera stuff was on USA Cartoon Express. Otherwise, I might not have seen them at all. USA were one of the first networks to see significant value in repackaging older cartoons for a new audience, and they did very well with it for many years.

[Prowler]

Yeah I was surprised too when I first heard, many years ago, that FW was off the air for good in USA after 1997 or so.

Here in Portugal FW was rerunning on a popular cable TV channel that aired cartoons as early as 1997 or 1998. I guess the series was already cheap enough by then.

Reruns of it aired up until 2005 or so, at least. Several years ago, that saem channel was airing reruns of the 2k3 series.

Kids don't like old shows? True I guess but we got the UK version of Cartoon Network here that aired both newer and older shows. I grew up watching a lot of Looney Tunes, Tom and Jerry, Wacky Races, Flinstones, Hair Bear Bunch and such. I didn't care how old something was as long as it was entertaining. But maybe I just wasn't the typical kid, who knows.

[CyberCubed]

Why is this a surprise? Time Warner owned Cartoon Network, and then there was just Disney owned channels like ABC or Nickelodeon. TMNT wasn't owned by any of these companies and Lionsgate still owns the rights for the original cartoon.

Time Warner wasn't going to pay the right air the original cartoon on Cartoon Network, and of course it wouldn't air on Disney or Nick at the time.

[DarkFell]

Because Turtle Mania had fizzed out?

That would be my guess. Not many people want to invest air time for a series that people lost interest in. Perhaps CBS wanted more money from the other station(s) to get the cartoon series off of their hands, and other networks might have said "No Deal."

** My Red Sky Collection still has the CBS logo. That is why I came up with the latter option.

Money and lack of interest probably kept the FW series in the vault until renewed fan interest returned some years later.

[Leo656]

Kids don't like old shows? True I guess but we got the UK version of Cartoon Network here that aired both newer and older shows. I grew up watching a lot of Looney Tunes, Tom and Jerry, Wacky Races, Flinstones, Hair Bear Bunch and such. I didn't care how old something was as long as it was entertaining. But maybe I just wasn't the typical kid, who knows.

Nobody ever said TV executives or programming directors had their finger on the pulse. Simply that they were prone to making decisions based on their own assumptions and biases.

As I alluded to, a long time ago even the concept of reruns of TV shows was considered bizarre. "People saw it once, why would they see it again?" It's stupid, but that's how people thought. It took decades for people to smarten up.

Because Turtle Mania had fizzed out?


But again, that in and of itself can't be the sole or biggest reason because EVERY popular cartoon of the era had the same thing happen. So while it was very probably a factor it had to have been one of several.

[MrPliggins]

Real Ghostbusters did air again (heavily edited), when the Family Channel changed to Fox Family in the late '90s or early 2000s. I think it stopped airing once the channel converted to ABC Family. I assume the episodes were also edited on USA, because TMNT was.

[Leo656]

Oh, yeah, I do remember that. If I'm not mistaken it was sometime in the late-90s and was rather brief.

I paid less attention as a kid so I most likely wouldn't have noticed the editing of the shows. I assume USA did so to add an extra commercial break, as is standard practice (but also why I prefer watching shows on DVD rather than on TV in reruns).

You're right, though, and I'd completely forgotten about the brief Real Ghostbusters run until you just now mentioned it.

[superstaff]

I mean...

People here are saying it's because Turtle Mania ended and stuff, but...I think if 2003 and 2012 can rerun ad naseum, especially on their own channel on Pluto TV, then why couldn't the Fred Wolf show air as well?

I think it's some kind of rights issue that's preventing it, not so much that it isn't popular anymore.

[Leo656]

Now, most likely. Possibly not the case in 1998 or so, though. There were almost certainly other factors in play at that specific point in time.

[superstaff]

Now, most likely. Possibly not the case in 1998 or so, though. There were almost certainly other factors in play at that specific point in time.

Yeah, but the topic is why it stopped airing after 1997.

I've been baffled by this because, even now, the 80s turtles are the ones people recognize and 'care' about. So why hasn't the show been shown anywhere on TV since the late 90s? I don't even think it's streaming online anywhere either. So what gives? It's weird. :(

[Leo656]

Well again, by now it's almost certainly a rights/cost issue that prevents it from being aired.

I was just saying it probably wasn't quite so simple Back Then since the same thing happened for a lot of shows even when things like that weren't a factor. Such as Disney Channel choosing to only air reruns of stuff like Rescue Rangers sporadically or not at all, despite the fact that they owned it and it was very popular. They could have easily chosen to keep it on the air longer or featured it more prominently; they simply chose not to for their own reasons. I think they aired it *sometimes* but not as much as you'd expect, and again, newer shows like Aladdin took precedence even though that show was a lot less popular or fondly remembered, even in its day.

Which is why I was speculating that strictly within the context of the late-90s - rather than Now - the FW TMNT cartoon might not have been repeated for other reasons besides cost or ownership. By now, I agree that it's almost certainly an ownership/rights/cost issue. In 1997 or thereabouts, I have to suspect it had far more to do with just the landscape of childrens' programming in general. That being, most cartoons - even the most popular ones - simply didn't get aired anymore after the initial syndication package for reruns was over with, be it with USA Network or otherwise. Typically, they all had their First Run in syndication, then their Post-Cancellation run, and then after that they were quietly retired. That's just how it was done back then, almost universally.

Since neatoman worded the thread title and the question the specific way he did, I chose to speculate more on Then versus Now. Just to clarify.

[superstaff]

It's a huge shame because I think the 80s TMNT have a cultural relevance, and it'd be nice to see them again outside of DVD or old VHS copies.

[CyberCubed]

The original cartoon is also available on google store to watch streaming on your phone or at home, so it's not just the DVD sets anymore. I'm pretty sure it's up to buy streaming in other places too I just haven't bothered to check.

[neatoman]

The original cartoon is also available on google store to watch streaming on your phone or at home, so it's not just the DVD sets anymore. I'm pretty sure it's up to buy streaming in other places too I just haven't bothered to check.

Well I'm not going to say you're wrong because no VPN will help me check if it's on Google Play in the US. But I know the Amazon digital release forces you to pay for the show itself rather than as part of some shared subscription with other shows. You can get the 2003 show on Amazon in the same way but it will tell you that the show is on Paramount+ as well, where you don't have to pay just to watch it beyond the subscription fee to Paramount+. And Wikipedia doesn't list any subscription based services that has the 1987 show, so I'm assuming this "Pay-Per-Show" model is the only way to get it.

Which means that the 2003 show, despite years of Paramount basically pretending it doesn't exist, is cheaper and easier to watch officially than the 1987 cartoon. That's kind of weird, right?

[Prowler]

Well I'm not going to say you're wrong because no VPN will help me check if it's on Google Play in the US. But I know the Amazon digital release forces you to pay for the show itself rather than as part of some shared subscription with other shows. You can get the 2003 show on Amazon in the same way but it will tell you that the show is on Paramount+ as well, where you don't have to pay just to watch it beyond the subscription fee to Paramount+. And Wikipedia doesn't list any subscription based services that has the 1987 show, so I'm assuming this "Pay-Per-Show" model is the only way to get it.

Which means that the 2003 show, despite years of Paramount basically pretending it doesn't exist, is cheaper and easier to watch officially than the 1987 cartoon. That's kind of weird, right?
I guess that's a good compensation for the fact the 2k3 show is one of the hardest ones to collect on DVD.