Over time, do you like the 1987 Cartoon more or less?

[FredWolfLeonardo]

I think its fair to assume that most us have known the Original Cartoon for a long time, possibly spanning decades for some. With time, has your opinion on the show changed?

For me personally, I've only grown more fond of it with time, even though tmnt is nowhere near the top of the list of my favourite entertainment franchises. What has really sold the Original Cartoon for me and keeps it in my thoughts are the Voice Performances and the Background music, those two things alone are so memorable that I'd be crazy enough to convert the cartoon episode files into mp3 files and listen to them.

I used to be more nitpicky about things like animation and writing in the past, but present me cares more about colourful characters, which are plentiful in the 1987 toon.

[neatoman]

I have a more negative perception of it than I used to. I used to think it was just typical for the time when compared to Transformers, He-Man or GI Joe as well as several other cartoons from the 80's. That's not to say I felt it was good, just a mediocre product of it's time. Of course, then I explored several other cartoons and realised that even for the time the Fred Wolf cartoon was a piece of crap, it's just that it was made in the sludge pipeline of animation history.

There is a minimum level quality for animation and writing that existed long before the 80's and it shouldn't have been more difficult to meet it in the 80's than it was in the 30's. "It had to sell toys", "They needed to reach 65 episodes as quickly as possible" or "This isn't exactly a Disney movie" aren't really excuses for the poor quality. If the intention was to make a quality show (which, no, the show was clearly never intended to be much more than advertisement and a syndication deal scheme) then they would have put in the effort and time to make it happen.

Then there is the adaption issue. Defenders of this terrible show will often blindly shriek that this show had to be different from the comics because it had to be for kids or that there weren't enough issues to adapt. While the latter is somewhat true (new stories would have to make up the bulk of the episodes but not all of them), the fact that many of these comic book stories still ended up forming the basis for children's entertainment later on proves it wasn't necessary. Even if it was true, it doesn't really justify the other changes, did the show really become better by recasting April as a reporter or turning Leatherhead into a Cajun bully? I don't think so. If anything the show just makes the Turtles and the characters around them less complex for no reason.

Then there is the comedy which is one of the most common defenses for this show, largely because "comedy is subjective". However, I fail to see anything funny about this show, it's basically all just pizza jokes and dry snark, it's about the most toothless comedy I can imagine. It just makes me wonder if the people who use that argument have any taste in comedy whatsoever or if they just use it because they realise there's nothing else they can defend the show with unless they're willing to use fallacies and strawmen.

[MikeandRaph87]

It is still my favorite version of the Ninja Turtles and what defines the franchise in my eyes.

It is not perfect as nothing is. I cringe at a few of the lazy plot resolutions such as Ninja Sword to Nowhere with the alien antique dealer showing up out of the blue and made no sense. There was also the ridiculous secret move of the Foot Clan that only the master of the clan would know, the Cur-lee Manuver. The Three Stooges reference was out of place and is a let down. Why not make it a move that plays a hypnosis on the opponent's mind? A third one is the plot resolution to Michelangelo's Birthday which mothballs deflate the three Turtles? Splinter shrugs it off as all one has to do is believe. It gives credibility to '87 Donatello in the misrepresentation of the series in Turtles Forever. The overall plot of Raphael Knocks'em Dead was absolutely absurd and stupid.

However, I have come to realize that my taste in humor is actually shaped by the series itself along maybe with Full House. I love pun related humor and the sarcasm of Raphael. I also enjoy things that are quotable. That seems to be the basis of the humor in Ninja Turtles (1987).

Additionally while I detest the likes of Zach, Mr. Ogg, Carter, and Dregg as well as no interest at all in mobsters not named Big Louie or any mad scientist at all, I find the characters much more appealing and memorable even if only appearing once. It also gave us the most iconic take on various characters such as Leatherhead, Rat King who appeared in many different versions in many different looks. It has many characters that can be mined further and expanded upon. I don't feel like other versions gave us that nearly as much.

I hear the voices of the 1987 cast no matter what and their voices define the characters. It makes me hear two Raphael in the 2012 cartoon since Rob Paulsen has a particular brand that he injects into the characters that he voices. They prove to the most versatile cast as they took on many roles in addition to the main character he or she played. I understand it was so Fred Wolf productions could get more bang for their buck and 4Kids did it as non-union, but I like figuring out which VA did a random background character. I also never got invested enough to learn who all the voice actors behind the characters were. I may really enjoy the 2003 cartoon but I can't list off the names of the voice acting cast beyond Veronica Taylor voiced Ash Kechum.Ketchum.

Most of the animation errors I can forgive as rushed production especially in seasons 3 and 4. However, I would like to know what caused the error of the wrong voice actors getting the cue to speak another's line. Was it a script mistake or what? The one that I cannot forgive is the infamous plot related one from New York's Shinnest. The Turtles are using the Turtle Van and do the suicide dive gamble while Splinter, April and Rex-1 take the Turtle Van and Rex-1 rips off the back doors. The vehicle took a lot of damage in that episode! Why did the trio not take April's news van?

I think that I covered everything.

[CyberCubed]

Same as its always been. What I do wish is that the censors in the 80's and 90's weren't so strict with it, you can tell because some episodes have no fight scenes at all and of course the remove of Michelangelo's nunchucks which were ridiculous.

But this is all because back then "cartoons are for kids" was a strict mentality and all the damn soccer moms complained the show was "too violent" for kids (lol, it hardly is), and that's kinda sad.

[IndigoErth]

I'd say my adult feeling about it has just remained at a comfortable room temperature, if that makes sense. Still like it for what it is, but see it as a product of its time and while it may have been the big thing back then, it's not going to meet that by today's standard and doesn't have to.

[IMJ]

Loved it as a kid for the first few seasons, but lost interest shortly after it became a Saturday morning cartoon. Now? It's just part of personal-culture which means that even if I have passive disinterest, it's a thing I've been with for so long that I'll always "like" it.

So basically I don't even really "watch" it with any engagement anymore, but it does make for great background noise while doing something else. From time to time I'll put a disc in and just let it play while I'm busy with something - usually when I'm doing photography of some kind.

[Cowabung-Gal]

I’d say that I like it even more as the years go by, considering that the overall quality of cartoons has gone downhill since the late 2010’s.

Sad, I know

[IMJ]

I’d say that I like it even more as the years go by, considering that the overall quality of cartoons has gone downhill since the late 2010’s.

Sad, I know

Thundercats 2011 was a rare gem. I'd be ecstatic if that show got a movie or a revival. It was amazing...

[Cowabung-Gal]

Thundercats 2011 was a rare gem. I'd be ecstatic if that show got a movie or a revival. It was amazing...

Yeah, it was a cool show. And Will Friedle did an awesome job voicing Lion-O.

But, had it not been cancelled, Lion-O and a grown-up Wilykit would’ve gotten together and Pumyra would’ve turned into a spider-like monster.

No, I’m not kidding.

[NeonTurtledude]

I love it for what it is, but it's definitely not perfect and it does show its age (especially in some of the animation and audio errors) and also in the characters,

but I still find it very entertaining and the voice acting is all great

I vaguely remember seeing adverts and clips of 2011 Thundercats, it reminded me a lot of Avatar.

[Wesley]

I like it less than I did over time. Some episodes are more enjoyable to me as an adult, though, as a lot of the humour such as Raphael’s sarcastic remarks and the banter between Shredder and Krang went over my head as a kid.

I prefer the 2003 cartoon. I can watch that series no matter what mood I’m in whereas with 1987 I have to be in the right mood to enjoy it.

I just have the first two seasons on dvd and that’s enough for me.

[Leo656]

My actual opinion shifts with the day and the hour.

I'm generally pretty forgiving of it, since it is "of its time" and also the entire reason I ever paid any attention to TMNT to begin with. BUT, pretty much everything neatoman has ever said about it IS objectively true; I just don't feel quite AS strongly about all of it as he does. But there ARE a ton of easily-caught errors, the writing IS piss-poor most of the time, and I've never been of a mind that "Well it's for KIDS, maaaaaaan" is a good enough reason to handwave all of that. Many cartoons since then - including TMNT 2K3 - have illustrated quite clearly that you can do a kids' cartoon and NOT have it be brick-stupid or full of errors and plot holes Just Because. All it takes is a bare minimum of care, something the original show's producers simply could not be bothered with.

They knew their audience was too young and ignorant to care, and so they pretty much put in bare-minimum effort, and it shows. A LOT. I'm pretty much of the mind that the voice acting is what holds it all together, which is supported by the fact that to most people, a lot of the later seasons' episodes with several of the iconic actors replaced are nowhere near as memorable or entertaining as the earlier ones. The actors gave the characters a certain quaint charm that made you forgive a lot. The same bad jokes coming through other voices just didn't land.

I don't think I have it n me to flat-out hate it as much as neatoman does, even though I agree with most of his points. I do still have a sliver of nostalgia for it, but I've never managed to do a full-series binge and I doubt I ever will. When the Seasons were coming out on DVD, we would just binge-watch the latest release by itself and even just that was was more of the show than I could handle anymore, and afterwards I wouldn't be able to watch any of it for months, at least. By this point it's been at least five years since I've watched a full episode. I'm just not at all the same person I was when I was 7 and thought the show was a riot. Nowadays, I mostly just groan - HARD - throughout most of every single bit of it that I see. It's... not "good" unless you're 7, or remain adamant that everything you liked at that age is exactly as good as it was then. And I harbor no such delusions. It's NOT a "good" show, it's a Bad Show With Charm and the charm helps elevate it in peoples' eyes.

It's one of the best cartoon shows of the 80s, sure, but as mentioned that whole era was about Quantity Over Quality. There were more memorable cartoons in that decade than any era before or since, but very few of them were actually "good". Being among the best of a weak crop isn't the most noteworthy accomplishment.

I will say, though, that a lot of my resentment of the show isn't even about the show itself, but rather the cultural insistence that this insipid version is "The REAL TMNT" in so many peoples' eyes, and also that it means we'll never get a truly "good" interpretation of the franchise's characters and storylines. Like, TMNT CAN be "better" than this, if it's "allowed" to be. But it's NOT allowed to be, because a bunch of people think that jokes about "Pineapple and pepperoni pizza with strawberry ice cream and chocolate sprinkles, duuuuuuuuudes!" are somehow actually funny or clever, and that that's the bar any TMNT iteration needs to clear.

Like, it's not the show's fault some people are that vapid and easily-amused, and that they think "Well, it's s stupid concept, so the show(s) about it should also be stupid, the dumber the better." That society's fault for having such terrible taste and standards and refusing to accept that not everything a person liked when they were 7 is actually "good" or well-made. But regardless, the show exists as it is, and people insist that THAT is the "best" version of TMNT ever, despite it being objectively one of the dumbest versions. I sincerely wish one of the TRULY "good" versions, like 2K3, could have become the "iconic" version of TMNT, because Lord knows that show deserves such acclaim WAY more than the FW cartoon does. But that isn't how things work, unfortunately. Nostalgia and confirmation bias have seen to that.

So... I don't know. I guess one could say I like it less as more time goes on. But it's less about the show itself, and more about how I simply cannot fathom how 30+ years later the franchise seemingly "peaked" in most peoples' minds with one of the stupidest and most poorly-made iterations of the property. We've had better versions since then but they're not as recognized, for dumb reasons mostly having to do with Nostalgia Worship and 'Member Berries. That does really bother me. But I recognize that's less to do with the show and more to do with people generally being dumb.

[MrPliggins]

At the time it aired, I was somewhat obsessed with the show and the property in general, fully buying into the mania. I was a tv zombie and became focused on taping every episode. Even at the time, I noticed a quality dip when it became a Saturday Morning Cartoon, as someone stated earlier.

Today, I don't think often about the show, and I never watch it (I actually watch maybe an hour of tv per month these days. I'm way behind on the MCU). My interest in watching even one episode is very low, maybe because I've seen every episode so many damn times.

So to answer the question, less. I still have nostalgia, especially for seasons 1 - 3, but if I never watched an episode again I wouldn't be sad.

[triplexxx]

Of course I liked it when I was young. Once I decide I like or dislike something, my opinion never changes.

[IndigoErth]

One thing to note I guess is that in the days of the 87 series, while kids shows were sort of a big thing to an extent, at least to sell toys, it also wasn't the same industry as it is now. At best we had tv channels airing cartoons or other shows for kids at certain times of the day and that was it, there weren't any channels fully dedicated to kids. Not even Nick in its early days and even they didn't have their own cartoons for a while. Now you've got multiple channels 100% for kids 24/7, adults liking animation more than they used to, and probably have way more budget dedicated to trying to produce something of some kind of quality that will grab kid's attention and make money more than the cartoons of the FW show's era ever did. So yeah, it's not going stand up to what cartoons are these days. But if you like quirky classic types of cartoons and can find entertainment in the errors, etc... it's still not a bad watch.

Now does it need to be the main source influencing literally everything else... no, no it doesn't. Nor does it need to be rebooted.

[Aaronardo]

"Bad Show with Charm" is a great way to describe it. I loved it as a kid and it might as well have introduced me to TMNT, but I don't have the same appreciation for it now.

I do, however, have a different kind of appreciation for it. The show can be so incredibly stupid that it transcends taking itself seriously, even though its characters do at all times. But you can tell by Season 3 when they had to produce 48 different scenarios in a similar amount of time they had to produce 13 last season, all rules were thrown out the window. Donatello pretends to be on TV talking to some mobsters to get information? Sure. A computer program ray gives Shredder Michelangelo's personality? Why not. The Cur-lee Maneuver? Not even our dumbest idea so far.

The result is mad, self-aware, rushed creativity at its purist form, and that's unique. It's a good show to throw on with some drunk buddies. The best episodes of the show, imo, are the ones where they clearly didn't give a sh*t. It rarely feels like the show is phoning it in, because all of its lazy stupid choices have a thick layer of cheese and silliness plastered on them. If the show needs to get from Point A to Point B, it almost always does so in an unexpected way. So even though I never watch it today (and despise how tight Viacom seems to hold onto it), I still look at it in awe sometimes.

In addition, I agree it has one of the greatest voice casts and background soundtracks from any TV show.

[Andrew NDB]

Over time I think I respected it more than I did after I initially outgrew it but my resentment of it increases every time I see stuff from it recycled in whatever.

[neatoman]

my resentment of it increases every time I see stuff from it recycled in whatever.

Yeah, I try to be as objective as I can about my criticisms of the Fred Wolf cartoon and the ideas other iterations lift from it, but it can be a bit subjectively grating.

Obviously Bebop and Rocksteady don't have to be bad characters in everything simply because they were bad character in the Fred Wolf cartoon, they can be revised into something more palatable. That said, it's still kind of annoying that some people always seem to think it's a good idea to shove them in there simply because they remember Bebop and Rocksteady being major characters in the Fred Wolf cartoon.

I get it, despite being garbage the Fred Wolf cartoon is still where most of the early fans jumped in and they might possibly still make up the majority of fans, or at least the majority of fans over the age of 25 or so. But kind of feels like if JLA never managed to move past the popularity of Super Friends and as a result the Wonder Twins would be more prominent than the Martian Manhunter, a bizarre scenario in many ways.

[Leo656]

In addition, I agree it has one of the greatest voice casts and background soundtracks from any TV show.

Definitely. Definitely.

[Coola Yagami]

Yeah, I try to be as objective as I can about my criticisms of the Fred Wolf cartoon and the ideas other iterations lift from it, but it can be a bit subjectively grating.

Obviously Bebop and Rocksteady don't have to be bad characters in everything simply because they were bad character in the Fred Wolf cartoon, they can be revised into something more palatable. That said, it's still kind of annoying that some people always seem to think it's a good idea to shove them in there simply because they remember Bebop and Rocksteady being major characters in the Fred Wolf cartoon.

I get it, despite being garbage the Fred Wolf cartoon is still where most of the early fans jumped in and they might possibly still make up the majority of fans, or at least the majority of fans over the age of 25 or so. But kind of feels like if JLA never managed to move past the popularity of Super Friends and as a result the Wonder Twins would be more prominent than the Martian Manhunter, a bizarre scenario in many ways.

Oh wow, imagine if fans felt there was some sort of obligation to add the Wonder Twins and those two stupid kid (the girl and the wimp with the cape) in every DC cartoon since then or else it wouldn't 'feel authentic' or whatever.

[neatoman]

Oh wow, imagine if fans felt there was some sort of obligation to add the Wonder Twins and those two stupid kid (the girl and the wimp with the cape) in every DC cartoon since then or else it wouldn't 'feel authentic' or whatever.

Yeah, that's more or less where the TMNT fanbase tends to be in regards to Bebop and Rocksteady. Even if we were to pretend that the TMNT franchise really did start with the Fred Wolf cartoon, thus making Bebop and Rocksteady characters that were always there from the beginning, it still wouldn't justify putting them in everything. Doctor Death is Batman's earliest "proper" supervillain but he has never been in anything other than comics despite debuting 83 years ago, there isn't room for everyone and he's not exactly the most interesting one to use. Likewise, Bebop and Rocksteady are really just henchmen with very little motivation and backstory of their own, it's really just the savanna animal thing they have going for them and you might as well just replace them with anyone whenever Shredder needs henchmen.

And to bring it back to the Wonder Twins example, yeah, that really would just prioritise the nostalgia of Super Friends over potential or even really like... Actual popularity. The Wonder Twins are mostly just kind of an unintentional joke, even to people who grew up with the show. They have to fist bump every time they want to use their powers and one of them turns into a puddle of water by doing so, there's basically no way they were actually revised beyond the initial idea.

[ZariusTwo]

It's never been bettered and the franchise would never have been worth a s*it without it, it'd otherwise have fizzled out after it's initial status as an indie hit.

[cammy85]

Some aspects have aged better than others, like the action oriented seasons and even some of the Turtle-centered episodes from Seasons 4-5. I watched Michaelangelo, the Sacred Turtle last night for example. It depends on the mood you're in, really. There's something for everyone.

[MrPliggins]

The original opening theme is still the best one IMO. Although I admit I haven’t seen or heard the Rise opening, so I could be wrong.

[Leo656]

It's never been bettered and the franchise would never have been worth a s*it without it, it'd otherwise have fizzled out after it's initial status as an indie hit.

Considering how much sh*t we've endured since then, I'd be perfectly fine with that scenario.

[neatoman]

It's never been bettered and the franchise would never have been worth a s*it without it, it'd otherwise have fizzled out after it's initial status as an indie hit.

I believe I've said this before but we don't really know if that's true. It might feel as if it's true because it came out very early on in the franchise's history and was a big hit, but to say that the "the franchise would never have been worth a s*it without it" is to greatly exaggerate it's importance. As long as the Mirage studios comics came to exist, there is no real way of telling what would have happened if the Fred Wolf cartoon never existed.

So, time for a little thought experiment, I will present four different alternative scenarios for you and you'll try to answer them after you try to figure out the outcome. Here we go:

The first scenario, That comedians in make-up movie gets made. This would result in a live-action movie coming out before the Fred Wolf cartoon is made, preventing it from taking the shape it did in real life. As a result of the movie, the first cartoon is essentially a comedy with turtles who have very human looking faces. The movie and this alternative cartoon likely never has any of the elements of the Fred Wolf cartoon, probably being somewhere in between this movie and the comics.
The second scenario, everything up until the production of the Fred Wolf cartoon is the same, except Laird and Eastman find a different production company that adapts the comics more faithfully and treats them with more respect, leading to a more stable partnership.
The third scenario, the Fred Wolf cartoon is indeed made but it gets a worse time slot and is forced to compete with something more popular in season 1, leading to it's cancellation after only five episodes. The comics still continue to sell however.
The fourth scenario, a cartoon literally isn't made before the tenth's anniversary and a fan of the comics decide to make an adaption and gets the license.


None of these are implausible scenarios, any of them could have easily happened.

[Andrew NDB]

Likewise, Bebop and Rocksteady are really just henchmen with very little motivation and backstory of their own, it's really just the savanna animal thing they have going for them and you might as well just replace them with anyone whenever Shredder needs henchmen.


Who says Shredder needs "henchmen"?

[neatoman]

Who says Shredder needs "henchmen"?

If you don't count the ninjas working for him as henchmen, then no he does not need them unless the plot calls for it. The broader point is that if he has them, they don't have to be Bebop and Rocksteady in particular.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

If Shredder didn't have Bebop and Rocksteady, some of his plans may have succeeded. The two mutants needed to be around so they could screw up his plans and keep the show going.

[Antoniocafe]

I think I like show just as much now as I did during the 90s. What I don't really like very much is the way that the show has been portrayed in Turtles Forever and the Nickelodeon cartoon.

[Mad Dog McMutt]

I like the cartoon more and more all the time. I hadn't seen it for like 25 years, but then I decided to buy the complete series like 5 years ago while I was going through a hard time in my life. It was like hanging out with an old friend again. If anybody out there is going through a rough patch I recommend watching an old show you liked when you were a kid.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

I like the cartoon more and more all the time. I hadn't seen it for like 25 years, but then I decided to buy the complete series like 5 years ago while I was going through a hard time in my life. It was like hanging out with an old friend again. If anybody out there is going through a rough patch I recommend watching an old show you liked when you were a kid.

A year ago, I watched the Whole of Invader Zim and it was a fantastic experience after not having seen the show since my childhood. Its the best possible combination, watching a show that is not only nostalgic, but has alot of good qualities in of itself.

[jignat]

I like it less and less especially after seeing the 1990 film and the 2003 show.
The 1987 show is basically the Adam West version of TMNT.

While there are a lot of 80s cartoons that had cheese like Transformers/GIJoe, they werent 100% comedy all the time and sometimes had some decent action/lore building episodes here and there.

What makes me like the 1987 show less is also how it seems to dictate the TMNT brand to an almost insane extent even 35 years laet. So many tropes/concepts derived from this

Pizza obsession

Mike being a silly,immature goofball with a surfer accent

Rarely using the weapons in combat /changing weapons/ using pratfalls to defeat enemies

Shredder being overused and being an overseer who barely fights and is mostly a comedic presence

April being a damsel in distress or only caring about the next story (Her relationship with the bros doesnt really seem familial like Mirage/2003)

[TheUltimateBum]

Honestly, I think I like it better and better over time. Still, I must say that the Red Sky seasons have always been the best part of the show for me, but the previous seasons are harmless fun and the actors really embraced the silliness of the stuff.

[Anarchistguy]

I liked it as a kid, but eventually outgrew it (outside of the first five episodes). The 1990 movie opened me to a version of TMNT that made me resent the Fred wolf series even more.

That resentment subsided once the 2003 TMNT came along, but I rarely go back and watch the Fred Wolf series.

It's your typical 80s cartoon that only exists to sell toys.

[Antoniocafe]

I disagree that the original cartoon only existed to sell toys. I'm definitely not going to sit here and claim it to be the greatest cartoon ever created. But if you take it for what it is, I still find it to be a very entertaining cartoon. When I think "toy commercial" episodes of cartoons, I think of episodes of the original Transformers cartoon like "Auto Berserk" or "The Girl Who Loved Powerglide". Those episodes focused on minor characters who were given the spotlight just to promote their toy. I never really felt that way when watching the original TMNT cartoon. The cartoon absolutely had some episodes that were stinkers. But I've always felt that those episodes were simply poorly produced, and not that they were trying to sell a toy.

[Zachatello00]

I used to be more nitpicky about things like animation and writing in the past, but present me cares more about colourful characters, which are plentiful in the 1987 toon.

I'm kinda the opposite on this. It's funny, the relationship I have with this show, and the turtles in general. Maybe I'm getting old (maturing?), maybe I'm becoming a bit more cynical, but I'm less impressed with colorful characters and more concerned with writing and good stories being told.

That said, I've really struggled to appreciate the OG toon outside of the first 5 episode miniseries. I've always appreciated the care that Peter Laird put into the 2k3 show, and how he fought to keep it as pure as it could be without becoming a toy commercial and stay true to many of the original mirage stories.

It's gotten to where I've been questioning whether I want to keep the old toys or not, which i've whittled down to essentially the main 12 or so characters, plus Casey who was by and large ignored in this show. Maybe I shouldn't necessarily connect the two, the toys held different memories than the cartoon did.

I suppose it's one of those things I'm grateful for, TMNT played a huge role in my childhood, and subsequent versions of the cartoons/movies still play a big role, but the 88 toon in particular is largely something that I just don't really ... "miss" these days.

I appreciate the thread, because I've been thinking a lot about this lately.

[Leo656]

Yeah. I mean I can kind of understand why some people who like "wacky and zany" things are such huge fans of FW TMNT, but... I am not a "wacky/zany" fan just in general, and frankly, I genuinely do struggle to understand why anyone would like that kind of thing.

What so many people describe (about TMNT, or anything in general) as "zany, wacky, and FUN" just comes off to me as "Dumb For The Sake Of Dumb" and I can't really condone such a thing being celebrated, let alone deified. People can like what they like, but just like with black licorice I cannot and will never understand Why. I do not have the capacity to understand Why. I just see people saying "We Should Like Dumb Things BECAUSE They Are Dumb, Because Dumb Is FUN!" And y'know... I just can't. Statements like that are contrary to pretty much my entire being.

And the FW show is just SO much "dumb for the sake of being dumb" that more and more, I find myself resenting a lot of it, and flat-out hating other parts of it. Like, early this morning I skimmed one of those silly lists of "Worst TMNT Cartoon Villains", and good god, was there some horrifically godawful and indefensibly stupid sh*t in that show. Much of which I've blocked from memory after all this time, but when confronted with it again my overwhelming thought was "Jesus... I actually watched this show for 1-2 hours EVERY day for 5 years?" And so much shame. I know, for a fact, that I had other things to do. And yet, I willingly subjected myself to stuff like Ogg and Percival Pifflecoot and sh*t like that, multiple times.

I don't know, man. That show is like PEAK "just shut your brain off" stuff, and I physically don't have the capacity to do that whatsoever. I guess my definition of what's "fun" runs contrary to most peoples. I simply don't have "fun" watching ANY show that makes me feel stupider for having watched it. 95% or more of FW TMNT does that for me.

As others have said, I can only really tolerate the early stuff. And I appreciate the late-game effort during the Red Sky era to "course-correct" and finally start taking things seriously (to a point), but it was a very half-hearted, borderline half-assed attempt that came way too late to actually do any good anyway.

It's just one of those things where every single time I try to revisit it, I end up just deciding to leave the memories alone. I don't want to actually "hate" the show as some people do, but that's inevitably what will happen if I ever make a serious attempt to watch it again.

Them's the breaks. It was made for 6-year olds and I ain't 6. It is what it is.

[Zachatello00]

Them's the breaks. It was made for 6-year olds and I ain't 6. It is what it is.

I think that's just it. It's a cartoon made for little kids, and when I was a little kid, I loved it. I'm not a little kid anymore, and so, I guess I'm okay letting it go.

It's like, Batman.

Batman has various levels of "maturity", depending on wherever you are in life, you can enjoy it. There's Batman 66 or Brave and the Bold for younger audiences. There's Dark Knight or Batman 2022 for your more mature audience. Me? The 1992 series hits me just right.

TMNT is kinda the same, I guess. There's the 88 show for the little ones, 2k3 or 2012 maybe for a bit older, the movies and Last Ronin for others...

It's not the TMNT themselves, it's just that show that's marketed toward not 40 years that makes me kinda want to move on, I guess.

[Leo656]

I mean I wouldn't even really care that the FW cartoon is sacrosanct to so many people, if many of those same people didn't inevitably confront anyone who says "I just outgrew it and can't watch it anymore" with ad hominem attacks about being a joyless edgelord or whatever, as happens so often.

It's like I haven't listened to my Sesame Street records since I was 4, either; wow, what a supervillain. Clearly that means I haven't so much as smiled ever since. :roll: People are allowed to acknowledge that they're no longer the target audience or satisfied by material aimed at that audience, it doesn't make them bad people or "joyless" or whatever. It just means they have more sophisticated taste than they did when they still thought boogers tasted great.

If people want to have the absolute same sincere appreciation and devotion for a thing they liked at that age, it's their business. But people like myself should be allowed to raise an eyebrow at that AND say "I don't like it anymore because I'm a grown-up" without being called names over it.

[Wesley]

I mean I wouldn't even really care that the FW cartoon is sacrosanct to so many people, if many of those same people didn't inevitably confront anyone who says "I just outgrew it and can't watch it anymore" with ad hominem attacks about being a joyless edgelord or whatever, as happens so often.

It's like I haven't listened to my Sesame Street records since I was 4, either; wow, what a supervillain. Clearly that means I haven't so much as smiled ever since. :roll: People are allowed to acknowledge that they're no longer the target audience or satisfied by material aimed at that audience, it doesn't make them bad people or "joyless" or whatever. It just means they have more sophisticated taste than they did when they still thought boogers tasted great.

If people want to have the absolute same sincere appreciation and devotion for a thing they liked at that age, it's their business. But people like myself should be allowed to raise an eyebrow at that AND say "I don't like it anymore because I'm a grown-up" without being called names over it.

Yep, everyone is different. I try not to take things personally and that includes both positive and negative feedback.

[cammy85]

It all depends on the mood really. There are episodes for every mood. But if you watch one from Season 1 or 8-10 which are serialized, it's hard to watch just one. Season 7 isn't serialized, but same thing. Then you agonize over the decision and then decide on something else. I have the DVDs especially because they're obviously better quality than those old encodes with the subtitles or Ninja Turtles Netwoek, especially on larger monitors/TVs.

[Prowler]

I wouldn't say I like it less.

More like I can see not only its flaws but also the issues it caused to the property. It's was propelled it into stardom but at the same time also what limited its potential growth.

I was already beginning to see the falws of the FW series when I was a kid, but since TMNT went in a very different direction with the 2k3 series, I felt like FW was just something from the past. But then the Nick sale happened and yeah...

With 2k3 I felt like the property was slowly growing with me, but clearly that didn't happen in the end.

I can think of dozens of animated series which are overall better than the Fred Wolf series. It's not some golden standard of animation.

[ZariusTwo]

It's your typical 80s cartoon that only exists to sell toys.

And those toys gave you a pleasant childhood. What is so sinful about that?

What's wrong with cartoons entertaining you AND giving you the incentive to spend money on things to help you entertain yourself?

Everything exists to sell something, even your precious 'edgy' TMNT like 23K, 2012, Rise and the f*cking movies. Unclench. They all sold toys too.

[Shark_Blade]

I mainly only watch Season 1 of FW and on rewatches, I never get tired of her.
It made me appreciate the character more I guess.

[neatoman]

And those toys gave you a pleasant childhood. What is so sinful about that?

What's wrong with cartoons entertaining you AND giving you the incentive to spend money on things to help you entertain yourself?

Everything exists to sell something, even your precious 'edgy' TMNT like 23K, 2012, Rise and the f*cking movies. Unclench. They all sold toys too.

Geez, I hope steam isn't coming out your ears there, buddy...

Anyway, I guess I might as well start with your argument about the other TMNT cartoons. I don't really think anyone is really disputing that they were also made to sell toys or even that they were particularly more subtle about it. However, it would be dishonest to say they had the same high level of production errors or the same low standard for writing quality. While it is still unfortunate that they were also rather blatant toy commercials, I can still say they were of higher quality. And the 2003 show does qualify as an actual adaptation half the time, so there is at least the additional value of that. As for the movies, I don't really see how the first or third movie really qualify as toy commercials aside from having toys based on the movie designs, but I can't really think of anything that seems like it was added just to sell toys.

Then we have your first argument about a "pleasant childhood", I have a bit of a problem trying to understand what you're trying to convey. I assume you are tangling together the experience of watching the show with playing with the toys... Which while technically related experiences, are still two different experiences. You playing with the toys and you watching the show weren't the same thing, you can't really use the existence of the toys to validate the quality of the show, that's really weird. If you intended to communicate some other idea, please tell me what that was.

And finally, what is wrong about the show primarily being advertisement? Oh boy, I saved that one for last since it's the most difficult to unpack. Alright, the simplest way I can describe this is that entertainment/art does not really have the same goal as advertisement, blurring the line like this creates problems with the story telling. Characters and objects will often be introduced with no regard for how they alter the story, creating strange plots with random elements, this actually hurts the quality of the writing quite significantly as it means the story structure, consistency and pacing takes a backseat to the toys being advertised. If a toy company is the primary stake holder and main contributor to the budget, that would give them enormous power over how good the show is going to look. It is also worth noting that back in those days, the schedule would often be rushed and the budget kept as low as possible just to make sure the show was advertising toys still on store shelves and didn't cost more to make than what the toy sales could earn. And of course there is the pesky little fact that non-ambiguous advertisement like the commercials made to sell anything else also existed, which just makes the practice of blurring the line a bit pointless and kind of a sleazy tactic from the ground up.

[Zachatello00]

It's never been bettered and the franchise would never have been worth a s*it without it, it'd otherwise have fizzled out after it's initial status as an indie hit.
That’s a great point. I would probably have never heard of the TMNT without this cartoon. I didn’t get into comics proper until the mid-90s, ten years after the turtles got started.

[neatoman]

That’s a great point. I would probably have never heard of the TMNT without this cartoon. I didn’t get into comics proper until the mid-90s, ten years after the turtles got started.

Not really, it's the sort of thing we will never know sure, so crediting the Fred Wolf as the only possible way the franchise could have grown is not intellectually honest. It's the type of argument people fall back on when they realise they can't really defend something on it's own merits.

[Leo656]

I don't care about anything of TMNT being a toy commercial, since I'm a huge fan of toys and honestly think that just being a full-time toy brand (with occasional video games) and just not bothering to do movies and cartoons anymore would be the best possible future for this franchise, considering how consistently terrible the movies and cartoons have been for a long time now. Just do the stuff people like and eliminate anything that gets a mixed-to-poor reaction. People love the NECA and Super 7 toys, they love most of the video games, but everything else does poorly. Okay, so if that's the case then just stick with what works, that's what I'd do.

So I don't have any issue about TMNT pushing plastic. My issues with the old cartoon show are just that I think it's far too dumb and shoddily-made to deserve the reverence it receives to this day. That's all.

I don't see why this always has and always will cause so much steam between people. It's not a well-made show, and the soundtrack and voice cast do ALL the heavy lifting. It's got charm, sure. It's memorable, sure. But it aims for the lowest common denominator in its writing and its humor and I think people should be allowed to be dissatisfied with that.

4Kids isn't a better TMNT cartoon because it's "edgy".... and Who ever said that, exactly? I don't think I've ever heard anyone describe 4Kids that way, actually. It might be more "edgy" than the FW cartoon but then so is a frisbee. No, 4Kids is a much better show because it's simply A Much Better Show. Maybe it doesn't tickle some people the same way with its humor as the original did, but that's subjective. What's objective is, it's written better, has far fewer extremely obvious errors in its animation, and obviously that matters to a lot of people. I mean towards the latter days one could argue it got even dumber than the FW cartoon, tonally, so I mean... yeah, "edgy", that show wasn't. "More competently made" than the original, though? Law's yes.

Although the original cartoon does have better music and voice acting. But that's like I keep saying, people forgive a LOT about the old cartoon because of those two factors, specifically. Take those away, I highly doubt the original show would still be so revered, because otherwise there just isn't much to put it over compared to its successor.

Part of why I hate this franchise so much is the insipid "broken base" issue. 99% of ALL TMNT conversation since the beginning of time has been arguing the merits of each iteration and it's just so f*cking stupid anymore. I wish this brand had only ever had one consistent style and tone and then people could like it or lump it. It's all just half-truths and ad hominems and people either defending their right to still like what they liked when they were 6 or people defending their right to grow up and move on.

I mean, quite frankly my life would have been just fine if FW TMNT, or TMNT in general, had never existed, but that's me personally. Sure it "enriched" my life in some way, but frankly I was still way more of a MOTU and Ghostbusters fan even after they stopped making product for those things. If TMNT hadn't come along, I just would have kept playing with my "old" MOTU and Ghostbusters stuff, and bought more Hasbro WWF toys. So when I look back I don't see some giant TMNT-shaped hole in my life if it had never existed. Point of fact when I first was exposed to it in '88 I initially thought it was the stupidest thing ever conceived, before changing my mind and getting into it, and as I've been outspoken about my opinion on that has come full circle. And for a multitude of reasons, I do mostly wish I'd stayed away from it entirely back then. I think this brand has brought me far more annoyance than joy, by now.

I'unno. It annoys me that we STILL have these conversations and that they're STILL so consistently salty, over a brand that REALLY and truly does not deserve as much reverence as it receives from either end of the debate.

[Anarchistguy]

Not really, it's the sort of thing we will never know sure, so crediting the Fred Wolf as the only possible way the franchise could have grown is not intellectually honest. It's the type of argument people fall back on when they realise they can't really defend something on it's own merits.

Exactly. I know A LOT of people who got to know about the TMNT, not through the cartoon but through the first movie.

[neatoman]

Exactly. I know A LOT of people who got to know about the TMNT, not through the cartoon but through the first movie.

Yeah, and what about hypotheticals? What if the license had gone to Ruby-Spears, DIC, Sunbow or even one of the bigger ones like Disney? That would have very likely resulted in a very different show. Hell, even if Fred Wolf still got the license but Playmates cooked up a different set of concepts for the toyline, that could also have changed the direction quite drastically.

Had any of these hypothetical alternatives seen the light of day instead, wouldn't people claim they were the one and only way the franchise could have grown? Or had the first season of the Fred Wolf cartoon been exactly the same but nobody tuned in for the first season, would people claim the show was always doomed to flop?

Yes, what happened in the real world was that the Fred Wolf cartoon happened to be first mass media version and it happened to be a financial success. So it might seem intuitive that it was bound to be a hit or that it was successful because of the exact direction but just isn't a correct assumption. We will never really know for sure.

[Anarchistguy]

And those toys gave you a pleasant childhood. What is so sinful about that?

What's wrong with cartoons entertaining you AND giving you the incentive to spend money on things to help you entertain yourself?

Everything exists to sell something, even your precious 'edgy' TMNT like 23K, 2012, Rise and the f*cking movies. Unclench. They all sold toys too.

So because I had a nice childhood I should just shut up and not question the quality of a product? Nice logic there.

[Antoniocafe]

I still enjoy pretty much all of the cartoons from those years: Alvin & the Chipmunks, The Super Mario Bros Super Show, Garfield & Friends, Tiny Toon Adventures, The Real Ghostbusters, Muppet Babies. I'll take cartoons from the late 80s to early 90s over the cartoons from the last five years or so.

In my rewatch of the original cartoon, I just got done with the Europe episodes. I have to admit, that was a pretty rough batch to watch. But up to that point, the first three seasons have been very enjoyable.

[AquaParade]

I enjoyed it as a child. I mostly just appreciate it now.
Both for nostalgic reasons and just because it’s generally pretty charming.
But I can’t sit through more than an episode, if even that, anymore.

The fist season still appeals to me just enough to be enjoyable, but nostalgia plays a role there too.

[Prowler]

I enjoyed it as a child. I mostly just appreciate it now.
Both for nostalgic reasons and just because it’s generally pretty charming.
But I can’t sit through more than an episode, if even that, anymore.

The fist season still appeals to me just enough to be enjoyable, but nostalgia plays a role there too.

Well, the first season also has strong continuity between each episode. So watching those 5 episodes in one day is easier than watching 5 random episodes from seasons 4-6 in a row.

For some years I'd marathon the whole show during summer vacation. It was a personal tradition of mine at some point. I was a kid/teenager, so it was a different time. Nowadays, I'd be unable to do that. I'm not even talking about time here. I can easily watch 10 One Piece episodes on a Saturday or something. But 10 FW episodes? No. Not anymore.


Plus, considering I've watched 99% of the episodes about a dozen times... that probably plays into it as well. The FW series has nothing I haven't seen already.

[Antoniocafe]

Needing to take a little break from my original cartoon rewatch. The first disc on the season four set, preceeded by the Europe episodes, has been really rough watch. It's a bunch of episodes that I believe were produced by a different animation studio. I think the only episode on the first disc of the season four set that was done by the regular animation studio was the Shredder's Mom episode. I'll pick up again in a while. But there's only so much I can of episodes like Four Turtles and a Baby.

[biganimefan]

Less. Used to be a Turtle fanatic with the series when I was a kid. Used to imagine being a part of it ALL the time 30ish years ago(back before fanfiction was really a thing). Also, some of my favorite episodes and characters back then are almost universally hated by the fandom.

Present day, I do still like it a lot. I no longer "live and breathe it" like I did as a kid. And it takes up FAR less of my thoughts as well. It is one of many TV/movie "franchise" interests. The nostalgia is strong, but I do notice the glaring issues with it. Every 5 years, I do a franchise wide marathon(all the series', movies, comics, and games. Plus maybe some fanfiction) in decade anniversaries from when it was created and when I got into it(1989). Although I usually start the previous calendar year at some point. So, while I'll likely do this again in 2023, it probably won't be right away.

[Antoniocafe]

The farther I get into my rewatch of the original cartoon, the harder it is to sit through. The first two seasons, very easy. Season three, not quite as good, but I still enjoy the episodes. Season four, and the Europe episodes, have definitely been a challenge. There are just so many stinkers in there. I am really looking forward to The Big Cufflink Caper, the Dimension X Story, and the Footsoldiers are Revolting. As those were some of my favorite episodes in the series.