Does Peter Laird regret selling to Viacom?

[Monty Mole]

I know Peter Laird doesn't regret selling the rights, he clearly wanted to retire. But had he been offered the same amount of money from other companies like Sony, Warner Bros or 20th Century Fox, would he have still chosen Viacom?

[Leo656]

I'm pretty sure he said in the past that one or more of those companies did in fact express some interest at various points, but the offer they made was insultingly low. Laird was more than willing to sell to pretty much any company that hit the magic number he had set for himself, it just so happened that Nick/Viacom was the only one to come close.

Laird wanted out of the TMNT business but he didn't want to take a lowball offer. Otherwise, he didn't care who bought it or what they did with it, he'd already made up his mind that he wouldn't be watching to see what happened regardless. If WB for example had offered as much or more, they would have gotten it instead.

I don't think he regrets selling to Viacom, so much as seeing them make back triple or more what they paid for the brand in less than two years probably makes him regret that "great deal" he took, just a little. But it's partly his own fault, he did almost nothing substantial with the brand for years and was notoriously difficult to deal with, so the TMNT projects he oversaw in the market underperformed, there was little interest in exploiting the property for movies, cartoons, comics etc. and the brand's market value was subsequently less. In his own head, though, he probably wishes he'd held out for more, because he definitely sold out for a pittance compared to what Viacom made off of it almost immediately. I hate all of the Nick-branded TMNT stuff but if nothing else the brand is much more high-profile and bringing in much more money now than it was when Laird was pushing it. He wasn't very good at marketing and generating publicity and I don't think he ever really cared to prioritize that, but in the end it bit him in the ass because in the end he STILL took a relative bath on the deal. I mean, it's more money than most people will ever see and I'm sure he's reasonably happy, but that had to sting seeing how much he potentially COULD have had if he was a more savvy businessman.

[Andrew NDB]

And again, not to suggest TMNT is the same as Star Wars (though maybe at the height of Turtlemania... kind of close in terms of general popularity and toy sales and all?), but George Lucas made 4 billion for selling Star Wars and Peter Laird only made 60 million for selling TMNT. Obviously TMNT wasn't worth 4 billion... but like 1? 1.5, maybe? Not 60 million.

[Leo656]

Makes you wonder what the WB (it was WB, I think? Or was it Disney?) offer he turned down was. Like what, ten million?

I like to imagine he asked for more, then WB (or whoever) looked at the box office gross of the 2007 TMNT movie and just sent him an email that said "L-O-L" and nothing else.

[Andrew NDB]

I like to imagine he asked for more, then WB (or whoever) looked at the box office gross of the 2007 TMNT movie and just sent him an email that said "L-O-L" and nothing else.

Yeaahhh... that 2007 movie definitely didn't do Laird any favors, especially if he was looking to make a deal. For all we know even he was like, "Damn... a new TMNT movie in 2007 barely made any money? Might as well sell now before things depreciate even more."

Crazy to see that the budget of the 2007 movie was more than the combined budgets of TMNT (1990) and TMNT II: SotO. And the 2007 movie was considered a "cheap" thing.

[Leo656]

Oh yeah, I'm sure the movie's under-performance was a huge factor in his decision. He probably felt based on evidence that the brand had hit its ceiling and there wasn't anything to really be done to further exploit it. Why hang onto it, at that point, when at best your attempts to exploit the property break even and more often than not you're losing money?

As much as I hate everything that's come out since the sale, Viacom proved that with proper marketing the brand could still be high-profile and profitable. Granted, all of that money is being made by pandering to the lowest common denominator and the products are bad, BUT people are aware that TMNT still exists, which they mostly were not aware of in 2008.

He needed a PR firm or a "brand manager" or something. I know he was notoriously critical and hands-on about how the brand was used, but seeing just how MUCH money was metaphorically left on the table one can't help but think that maybe he should have loosened those reigns just a little bit. And at the very least he could have done a much better job over the years of raising brand awareness. They had a cartoon on the air for the better part of a decade that most people didn't even know existed, and a movie that people didn't know was out even as it was in theaters. That's just plain bad marketing.

[Andrew NDB]

See, I'm torn on that aspect of things. I totally respect and like that he was only approving cartoons and movies that weren't horrible on paper. And keep in mind, that's the important part -- he was only approving cartoons and movies that weren't horrible on paper. He didn't craft the 2003 cartoon, or the 2007 movie, nor was he ponying up money to get these things made. Sure he had notes and whatnot, and definitely some hand in guiding the 2003 cartoon, but he was only giving his blessing to the least sh**ty things being floated around. Maybe amongst those pitches for a new cartoon, was there one for a big mutants everywhere/Bebop/Rocksteady/Technodrome extravaganza that would have made 2012 money? Probably. Though I'm not even sure the 2012 series did significantly higher numbers than the 2003 series in either ratings or toys. I notice that 2012 has vanished from view the same way 2003 did, and Viacom has invested interest in 2012. And if your adult friends didn't know 2003 was airing that's hardly neither nor there. The kids of the chicks I was dating back then certainly were super into it! I think Laird's greatest achievements between consolidating the rights in 2000 up until the sale to Viacom in 2009 was just saying "no" to so many terrible TMNT things that would have marred things so much earlier.

What I DO agree with is Laird maybe not handling the comics side of things the best. And he's openly admitted this himself. Marketing, distribution, the hype, everything. If he didn't want to be that guy then he maybe should have appointed a guy to do that. Should have been a huge PR push when, say, Tales V2 came out. And it should have been in color and there should have been a big stink about it everywhere. Vol. 4, whatever, that was basically his sandbox and I respect that. But could he have afforded, say, Tristan Jones and those guys to do some kind of focused, ongoing "Gang Wars"-style series in also modern color with hard-hitting stories and such and had a PR team similarly get the word out appropriately? Absolutely.

[AquaParade]

I wonder if, deep down, there was a notion that selling the brand was the only way to keep it alive. Like sending Kal-El off of Krypton in a little ship, before he dies with his creators.

I think Laird was clearly exhausted with TMNT… but I also imagine it can be sort of sad to think your life’s work is just going to sputter out and die before you do. At least when you’ve invested so much and seen it get so big.

I wonder if that made it easier for him to sell. The idea that it might be the only thing that keeps tmnt going.

[AquaParade]

Oh yeah, I'm sure the movie's under-performance was a huge factor in his decision. He probably felt based on evidence that the brand had hit its ceiling and there wasn't anything to really be done to further exploit it. Why hang onto it, at that point, when at best your attempts to exploit the property break even and more often than not you're losing money?

As much as I hate everything that's come out since the sale, Viacom proved that with proper marketing the brand could still be high-profile and profitable. Granted, all of that money is being made by pandering to the lowest common denominator and the products are bad, BUT people are aware that TMNT still exists, which they mostly were not aware of in 2008.


What poor TMNT product are Nick profiting my on, by selling to the lowest common denominator?

All the crappy products they’ve been involved in have flopped, like Rise… and the PD films.

The comics and toys are pulling in more money than they have in decades, with solid products. Video games too.

TLR
Shredder’s Revenge
Neca & Super7 figures.

These avenues are all expanding. Some people here (you, to be fair) claimed TLR would be lucky to get a spin-off. Well, six months later, we already know of two spin-offs, and it’s own toy-line.

Shredder’s Revenge and Cowabunga Collection sold so well that a AAA game has been confirmed to be in development.

Nick is doing a great job overseeing the brand lately. At this point, I won’t be surprised if the Rogen movie is decent. Obviously it’s not the direction I’d take a TMNT movie but the quality assurance has been good on TMNT stuff lately.

A brand like He-Man would be lucky to have this much good stuff right now.

[oldmanwinters]

I know TMNT had basically entered a second hibernation period around 2008-2009 and the entire 25th Anniversary Shell-A-Bration tour was surely a business decision to court potential suitors to be the franchise's next owner, but even when the news broke of the sale to Viacom, I figured TMNT would be worth at least $100 million. Was it ever made clear if the $60 million was the "after tax" money?

[Leo656]

A brand like He-Man would be lucky to have this much good stuff right now.

:lol: You have a real complex about this, don't ya? Like you REALLY can't stand that I like MOTU a lot more than TMNT and you have to constantly bring it up to try and antagonize me. Like Sumac with DC movies, or Cure was with Everything Always. It's f*cking weird when people do that.

But aaaaanyways, TMNT has some cool overpriced toys and a couple of nostalgia-bait video games sold well. Good! Every other thing that's come out since the Viacom sale has been awful, I'unno what you want me to do, lie? Because IDW produces some comics that are more suitable for toilet paper I'm supposed to be impressed by the brand's post-sale performance? C'mon. I mean, you're gonna keep throwing Last Ronin at me until the end of time despite that thing being the most "Just Okay, I Guess" thing to ever get such a hero's welcome. It's NOT great, buddy! It SEEMS great because the other IDW TMNT comics are absolute trash-tier; if even one other actually good TMNT comic were out on the market otherwise, people wouldn't be jerking off to that thing so hard. It's JUST okay. Not "great", and I'd argue not even all that "good" unless you're REALLY starved for "True TMNT" content. Which I guess most people are. And overrating mediocrity is kind of a habit with this franchise's fanbase, I admit, but still. Let's not over-sell something that's Just Okay and treat it like the Second Coming; it isn't.

"Ohhhhhh they're gonna do a sequel TLR series with some FAKE TMNT!" Sounds awful, can't wait! :lol: C'mon. Caaaaaaaamaaaaaaaan, wit dis!

Also, the brand can't even support a retail toy line at present and thus have to resort to third-party licensing agreements with brands like NECA making overpriced "boutique" items for a buyer's market of a few thousand people. That'll probably change one day again, sure, but I'm not overly impressed by how well they're doing among the Niche Hipster Market or whatever. They haven't had a profitable retail-first line in a decade, because the brand's been handled so poorly there's no market or audience for one. Sure, a lot of that is because Playmates is awful and nobody wants their junk, but at the same time if Playmates saw money in that space, they'd be in there and not keep letting companies like Mattel eat their lunch.

Quality Over Quantity and frankly, none of the money goes into my pocket so I don't really care. But aside from the "boutique" toys for rich hipsters and reheated video games from 30 years ago, Every Other TMNT Thing Right Now Is Trash. Those toys and those games are the PEAK of a decade's worth of work since the sale. Yay? Like, that's the best they can do, that's great. Like I keep saying, if that's the "best" the brand can come up with they ought'a just stop or focus JUST on those things and nothing else.

But I mean, we clearly have vastly different opinions on what "doing well" means. I'm with Andrew in that having a ton of BAD stuff all being produced isn't exactly indicative of "health" just because it generates a lot of short-term profits. You clearly think otherwise, since you cite the comics and stuff as a source of pride even though they're bad. "At least they exist, and at least they make money, so that's great!" Well, that's the attitude that's turned this brand into such a f*cking joke in the first place, the idea that so long as they keep pumping sh*t out, it doesn't matter that it's all crap and we should celebrate.

Well, go ahead and be happy I guess. I concede that the toys and games are fine to have but there's nothing at all else to be happy about. AND, to reiterate just for the record's sake, the brand can't even sustain a mainstream retail toy line and hasn't been able to for quite a while. When you compare that to a brand with THREE successful retail toy lines going on at once you just look petty and silly. If you'd like a straw just ask, don't grasp.

I mean, I get the point you're trying to make. "They're making some products, and that's great!"

Well, to counter, my feelings are, "Most of it is garbage, so that actually isn't all that great."

It's a matter of priority and we're simply not going to agree on what's "important". You'd rather they keep pumping out dreck because some of that dreck makes people happy. Okay. I'd be more happy if there was 90% less TMNT content but it was all consistently Good. But that ship has long sailed.

Basically, you're Eastman and I'm Laird. :trazz:

[ZariusTwo]

Nick is doing a great job overseeing the brand lately


How it's going...


All the crappy products they’ve been involved in have flopped, like Rise… and the PD films.

[AquaParade]

:lol: You have a real complex about this, don't ya? Like you REALLY can't stand that I like MOTU a lot more than TMNT and you have to constantly bring it up to try and antagonize me. Like Sumac with DC movies, or Cure was with Everything Always. It's f*cking weird when people do that.


No, I just find it amusing because it irritates you, while you are happy to spend your days on a TMNT board going off on how dumb tmnt and it's fans are. Literally the people surrounding you.

And then someone, on a non-He-Man forum, mind you, critiques the He-Man franchise and you have a 6-paragraph meltdown.

It's goddamn funny.

Has nothing to do with me being "angry that you like He-Man more than TMNT", as hilarious as that implication is.

In fact, it has nothing to do with He-Man at all! I know nothing about it, other then Skeletor is one of the most bad-ass, albeit ridiculous, characters I've ever seen created for wee children. I actually think a Zack Snyder - He-Man reimagining could be super cool, based on visuals.

Truly, I was just making a point, and it went off with flying colors. I admit it was pretty troll-like behavior, but sometimes holding a mirror up is the best way to make a point.
In my defense, I didn't think it'd work that well.

[AquaParade]

How it's going...

Nick is doing a great job overseeing the brand lately - from toys, to videogames, to comics. It's been a great couple years.

In contrast to their crappy products, from previous years - Rise... and the PD films - which fell flat on their face.

I think you might be confused, sorry.

[Andrew NDB]

Nick is doing a great job overseeing the brand lately - from toys, to videogames, to comics. It's been a great couple years.

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/BelatedMixedBullmastiff-size_restricted.gif

And Nick has nothing to do with the comics. If there are new TMNT comics you like, Nick's biggest achievement is just not saying "no" to them.

[AquaParade]

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/BelatedMixedBullmastiff-size_restricted.gif

And Nick has nothing to do with the comics. If there are new TMNT comics you like, Nick's biggest achievement is just not saying "no" to them.

Wrong.
Nick does have something to do with the comics. They have to approve of them, along with Viacom. If Nick says "no" to The Last Ronin, then it doesn't happen. But if you want to replace "Nick" with "Viacom" then fair enough. Giving the greenlight to projects is precisely what "overseeing the brand" is lol.

And have fun arguing against TMNT entering the New York Times Best Seller list, selling a million copies of a videogame shortly after launch, and being one of the hottest adult-collector markets around, not making for a great couple of years for the franchise.

Business-wise, you're going to make a clown of yourself, and creatively, it's still hard to argue against.

Is it everything I want? No. Not at all. But I'm not going to argue against obvious success, especially when they are finally making clear attempts to reach fans of all ages.


Sorry, but TMNT having a great year isn't about Andrew getting what he wants. The property is making truck-loads of money, and creatively, it's ranging from comics that go straight back to the roots of the franchise to videogames that mix nostalgia-bate with modern game design. And again, the toys are flying off shelves and websites as soon as they hit.

[Andrew NDB]

Wrong. Nick does have something to do with the comics. They have to approve of them, along with Viacom. If Nick says "no" to The Last Ronin, then it doesn't happen. But if you want to replace "Nick" with "Viacom" then fair enough. Giving the greenlight to projects is precisely what "overseeing the brand" is lol.

And have fun arguing against TMNT entering the New York Times Best Seller list, selling a million copies of a videogame shortly after launch, and being one of the hottest adult-collector markets around, not making for a great couple of years for the franchise.

Business-wise, you're going to make a clown of yourself, and creatively, it's still hard to argue against.


Sorry, but TMNT having a great year isn't about Andrew getting what he wants. The property is making truck-loads of money, and creatively, it's ranging from comics that go straight back to the roots of the franchise to videogames that mix nostalgia-bate with modern game design. And again, the toys are flying off shelves and websites as soon as they hit.

Wrong. And what I want? What are you talking about? While I might snicker at it from time to time, I've been pretty clear I'm apathetic to TMNT in the corporate sphere. Or McTMNT™, I should say.

I reassert, Nick has nothing to do with the comics. Beyond sticky notes that don't say "you can't do that." IDW approached Nick and licensed TMNT, same as you might get new socks on the shelves with Bebop on them because a sock company approached Nick for a license. Great job on those Bebop socks, Nickelodeon! Eh, no, that's not the way any of this works. It isn't like IDW is an arm of Nick's, reflective of their overall vision for the TMNT. That's a delusion and your own cross to bear, sir.

And videogames! Wow, what a great job, Nickelodeon! Brilliance personified in simply allowing Konami to re-release their TMNT games from 30 years ago and taking money from another company to do a quasi-sequel to them. What cunning and planning!

[AquaParade]

Wrong. And what I want? What are you talking about? I'm apathetic to TMNT in the corporate sphere. Or McTMNT™, I should say.

I reassert, Nick has nothing to do with the comics. Beyond sticky notes that don't say "you can't do that." IDW approached Nick and licensed TMNT, same as you might get new socks with Bebop on them because a sock company approached Nick for a license. Great job on those Bebop socks, Nickelodeon! Eh, no. It isn't like IDW is an arm of Nick's, reflective of their overall vision for the TMNT. That's a delusion and your own cross to bear, sir.

You seem to be making two arguments:

1. Nick/Viacom are not responsible for the success of the brand.

2. The brand is not having a great few years (this is both objective and subjective, depending on whether we mean financially or creatively).



Do you understand what "overseeing the brand" means?

Nick/Viacom approving or disapproving what types of comics are allowed to be made is overseeing the brand.

We aren't even talking about IDW having final say. If Nick says TMNT don't kill, then TMNT don't kill. It's not up to IDW, it's not up to Kevin.

If Kevin wants to make a TMNT comic, that goes back to the roots of the franchise, involving turtles who were literally raised to kill, and do it in bloody-fashion, right on the page...then Nick/Viacom have to approve of that.
Which is something they were previously not willing to do.

If a game-developer or publisher wants to make a TMNT side-scrolling game, that goes on to sell millions of copies, Nick/Viacom have to approve that, or actually reach out to make it happen.

It's up to the people who - say it with me - "oversee the brand" - those who greenlight, those who get to choose which projects do or don't come out, and - yes - those who give sticky notes saying "yes" or "no". Ultimately, they are the ones who control the direction of the brand.


If the franchise is making a ton of money and pleasing various pockets of fan groups at once, then yeah, they most certainly have something to do with it. What on earth are you doing implying otherwise?



Oddly, you act like I am implying Nickelodeon is down in the trenches with Kevin Eastman, inking every last page, or writing code at 2:00 am for the latest game.

A better comparison is Peter Laird, once Eastman was out of the picture, or even Nick, when they first acquired the brand -

How were the toys?

Then: Crappy toys from Playmates, way past their prime.

Now: Amazing figures from Neca, Super7, you name it. There are like seven turtle vans, Mirage figures, FW toys, etc.
There is so much great competition, that even Playmates has been forced to step up their game, to compete.



How were the comics under Laird and the first few years of Viacom owning the brand?

Then: Volume 4 and Tales were mediocre and sold poorly. IDW's initial run received positive reception but felt neutered to returning TMNT comics fans (mixed bag, leaning positive).

Now: TMNT is officially on the "New York Times Best Seller" list and has a comic that caters to older fans, and actually feels like the product every one fell in love with in the first place. TMNT is actually "cool" again in the comic book community, for the first time in decades, which is going to continue to bare fruit.


How were the videogames?

They've been poorly received since the SNES area up until, what, a few months ago?

Their two games just became two of this year's best-sellers and received rave reviews.
At the end of your post, you are mocking the idea that Nick/Viacom found great success in selling millions of copies of a videogame and receiving awesome reviews?
The sarcasm you are using there makes you sound completely dense, man. It's like, uh, yeah - great job to Nick and Viacom there - damn straight lol. It's like you want to discredit them for not making the game themselves, which is utterly bizarre because that's not their job.



You act like it doesn't matter who oversees the brand and the parent companies deserve no credit. That's ridiculous. They deserve the credit now, just as much as they deserved the blame for allowing an awful sequel to the PD films to go foward, or for greenlighting Rise...(whether we like that show or not, it failed, and a fair amount of that is on Nick/Viacom).

Creatively, you might have an argument that the brand isn't in good shape, although you did play Shredder's Revenge and seem to appreciate those Neca Mirage figures. In terms of business? Just, no.

[Roseangelo]

TMNT is very stagnant right now. I'm not sure how a couple a video game releases means it's doing awesome.

There's going to be a "meh" at best movie next year, and Playmates will make horrible toys for it. Wash, rinse, repeat.

[Leo656]

I actually think a Zack Snyder - He-Man reimagining could be super cool, based on visuals.


Stop trying to give me erections ya weirdo. :lol:

Or McTMNT™, I should say.

I'm Lovin' this. :lol:

[AquaParade]

TMNT is very stagnant right now. I'm not sure how a couple a video game releases means it's doing awesome.

There's going to be a "meh" at best movie next year, and Playmates will make horrible toys for it. Wash, rinse, repeat.

Your first issue is summarizing the point down to just video games. I don’t understand why you’d take a point, cut the arms and legs off, and then say “I’m not sure about this”, to be fair.

Also, financially speaking, it’s easy: when you sell millions of copies of a video game and get your comic on the New York Times Best Seller list, all in one year, while the overpriced toys are flying off shelves, then, yeah, you are having an awesome year.

Not to mention all the supplementary sales that seem to be occurring, because of the attention the brand is getting.

Honestly, you guys either understand business or you don’t. Trying to argue that the tmnt aren’t having a very successful couple years, financially speaking, is just silly.

Creatively, we can talk, but I’ve already laid out my feelings on that.

Not sure why you’re concerned with Playmates making crappy toys of the movie. Just ignore them and buy the awesome toys from Archie, Mirage, IDW, FW, etc? Lol

I never said the brand was in perfect shape. A good movie is needed, sure.

I think some of you guys have sour grapes about the state of the brand and are letting that cloud the fact that Nick and Viacom are finding a lot of success with the ways they are choosing to license it out.
I understand the sour grapes, but ya gotta stop pretending selling a million copies of a video game and getting your comic book on the New York Times Best Seller list aren’t the marks of a very successful year.

But if you want to talk about it on a creative level, we can do that too, with the caveat that it’s going to be highly subjective.

[CyberCubed]

Mostly TMNT has been kept in the public eyes in terms of casual fans from:

1. The Last Ronin (it really did well a ton, which honestly surprises me because I didn't think anyone outside of this forum was aware it existed)

2. Shredder's Revenge has been selling a ton.

3. Konami's Cowabunga Collection of all 13 classic games has been a hit

4. Rise of the TMNT movie was surprisingly good, even people who hated the series liked the movie. Granted this movie was delayed 2 years because of covid as it was supposed to come out back in 2020 not 2022, so this is basically a "holdover" from when they thought the show would be a success. Still give props for them finishing the movie after the show was canceled and netflix even debuting it rather than dropping.

5. IDW comics seem to be getting a bit of a rebound with Tom Waltz back on the main series in terms of plotting after the less than stellar Sophie run. I guess we'll see how it goes, but all the remaining 20 issues of this year from the main and specials/mini's are plotted by him even if Sophie is still on script duties.


The only thing TMNT still doesn't have is a "good" mainstream movie. An adult series on netflix would be cool but I don't really ever expect it to happen.

[RetroReminiscence]

I know Peter Laird doesn't regret selling the rights, he clearly wanted to retire. But had he been offered the same amount of money from other companies like Sony, Warner Bros or 20th Century Fox, would he have still chosen Viacom?

I guess we will never know, but I always felt like he regretted selling his part of the license. It was his baby but I bet he thinks it changed for the worst honestly

[Andrew NDB]

I guess we will never know, but I always felt like he regretted selling his part of the license.

What do you mean his part of the license? He had all of the license. And license isn't even the right word.


3. Konami's Cowabunga Collection of all 13 classic games has been a hit

Based on what? All I'm seeing is the few people playing it frustrated that there's nobody online to play with.

[neatoman]

And for that matter, do we know for sure that Shredder's Revenge sold well either? I'm not saying it didn't, I just want sales data.

[The Terror of Death]

It sold one million copies in the first week.

https://www.nintendolife.com/news/2022/07/teenage-mutant-ninja-turtles-shredders-revenge-sells-over-one-million-copies

[Leo656]

Yeah guys, c'mon, I know how among some people it's fashionable to be all like "Anything FW-related sucks" and "Nobody cares about old video games" and "Beat-'em-ups are dead" and blah blah, but Shredder's Revenge and the Collection are like the only two video games all year to get any kind of significant response from either gamers or media. Let's at least try to be objective. I'm a jaded cynic as well but let's just be real for a minute.

[neatoman]

Yeah guys, c'mon, I know how among some people it's fashionable to be all like "Anything FW-related sucks" and "Nobody cares about old video games" and "Beat-'em-ups are dead" and blah blah, but Shredder's Revenge and the Collection are like the only two video games all year to get any kind of significant response from either gamers or media. Let's at least try to be objective. I'm a jaded cynic as well but let's just be real for a minute.

Isn't being objective to ask for data?

As for previous statements on it, I don't think I've ever said Shredder's Revenge sucks (in fact I think it looks pretty good), I've just said I don't approve of the choice to make it explicitly Fred Wolf themed and that I won't touch it unless I can get it for at least 60% off... Hold on, let's look at the Steam price... Make that 75%.

[Leo656]

I mean there's "numbers" and then there's "penetration", and each of those things has its own relevance and meaning.

I have no idea what the sales numbers are, but insofar as "heat", interest, and general enthusiasm, most other games coming out this year would need the proverbial rocket up its ass to even get half the response those games are getting. Whether it's "nostalgia" or "fanboyism" or any other thing, 2022 is most likely going to be remembered in the gaming sphere as "The year those TMNT games came out" more than anything else.

I'm sure the sales are generally pretty good, but there's also the other factor being that there simply just isn't a lot coming out right now that anyone gives a sh*t about.

From a distance it sure comes off like a few people would love for any and all FW-inspired TMNT media to fail or under-perform just for the sake of schadenfreude, but that's not how it's going.

[Galactus]

I guess we will never know, but I always felt like he regretted selling his part of the license. It was his baby but I bet he thinks it changed for the worst honestly

I think he regrets creating it more than he regrets selling it.

[neatoman]

Sure, but stats like "how many people are playing/buying it after three months" speaks a lot louder than "I feel like it's still a big deal after three months". It's like how every show on Netflix is a "hit show" but many of them don't even get a third season, or in some bizarre cases end up getting "five seasons" over a little less than two years and with barely enough episodes to fit two seasons.

I don't trust that something is a big hit without being shown proof that it is, especially not after I know for a fact that some things will be touted as a success no matter what.

Literally the only thing we know for sure did well on Cubed's list is Last Ronin. Shredder's Revenge did sell well the first weekend according to that one article but looking at Steam charts, the game peaked at 8700 players and the latest peak is a mere 313.
https://steamcharts.com/app/1361510#6m
That's admittedly just Steam, maybe it did way better on other platforms. The point is that this still speaks way louder than "I feel like it will be remembered".
And for comparison (and this is what I would actually call a big success released relatively recently) Cyberpunk 2077 all time high is about 100 times higher and has more players consistently.
https://steamcharts.com/cmp/1361510,1091500#6m

Even compared to relatively older games one would expect people to have played to death already, it does worse.
https://steamcharts.com/cmp/1361510,362890,220,620


To be fair, the game probably does fine for a niche game. But if Crypt of the Necrodancer is a game you've never heard of before, you should know it does about as well as that game, though Shredder's Revenge did have a much higher peak at the start. (Though SR has only seen a decline since it launched three months ago and CotND did take way longer to have a monthly peak below 400 players).
https://steamcharts.com/cmp/1361510,247080#1m

And again, these aren't sales statistics (which is what publishers probably care about more) and they're only relevant on Steam (which means we don't know for sure how it does on other platforms). But from the looks of it, it is not a massive hit, even compared to similar games in terms of marketing or budget. If anything, it just sort of seems to be the type of game that gets a """big""" number due to hype but burns out quickly, like a firecracker. If the trend continues, nobody is playing it half a year in.

I know this is coming from... Well... Me and I realise how this can come across coming from me. But this is the hard data I can find and what it shows is a relatively big start and a quick drop in players. My crankiness about the aesthetics has nothing to do with that, it's just what is.

[Andrew NDB]

Oh yeah, Cyberpunk 2077. I forgot I even still had that on PC.

[Zachatello00]

Do I remember correctly that Pete retained the right to do a few TMNT comics a year under the Mirage name? Maybe I'm wrong about that, but if I'm not, he could theoretically still be making money off of them.

I'm one who appreciated the tight hand that he kept on the TMNT for the quality of the 2003 series (the first few seasons, anyway). I'd rather a solid story be told and then end rather than be dragged out into obscurity.

That TMNT lives on in some form/fashion going forward is fine by me whatever form it takes. I still have my Mirage comics, 1990 movie, and 2k3 Turtles to keep me company :tsmile:

[Andrew NDB]

Do I remember correctly that Pete retained the right to do a few TMNT comics a year under the Mirage name? Maybe I'm wrong about that, but if I'm not, he could theoretically still be making money off of them.

Yes, he has an 18 comics a year clause with Viacom. He can publish and print a total of 18 completely original TMNT comics a year as long as he is "heavily involved" in the issues.

[Zachatello00]

I would think then, if he regretted things too much, he could always swing back into it. But I doubt that would happen at this point, as much as I might enjoy it. Volume 4 was it's own flavor of interesting, but I would have liked to see it enjoy a proper ending.

[Coola Yagami]

Yes, he has an 18 comics a year clause with Viacom. He can publish and print a total of 18 completely original TMNT comics a year as long as he is "heavily involved" in the issues.

The only thing with that is, does he even want to? Which of course the answer to that is one big fat nope. It's cool that he gave himself a backdoor on the off chance he decides to come back, after all it would suck to have a company tell you that you can't draw your own character anymore without their sayso. But in this case, it's hard to see why he even bothered. Especially 18 comics a year. We're lucky if we'll ever see 18 pages.

[Monty Mole]

Yes, he has an 18 comics a year clause with Viacom. He can publish and print a total of 18 completely original TMNT comics a year as long as he is "heavily involved" in the issues.

Could he not be a co-writer and let someone else do most of the work? And would it have to have been a continuation of Vol. 4? Or could it also be more Tales of the TMNT comics or even approving your TMNT Odyssey and Origin as a Mirage book.

[Andrew NDB]

The only thing with that is, does he even want to? Which of course the answer to that is one big fat nope. It's cool that he gave himself a backdoor on the off chance he decides to come back, after all it would suck to have a company tell you that you can't draw your own character anymore without their sayso. But in this case, it's hard to see why he even bothered. Especially 18 comics a year. We're lucky if we'll ever see 18 pages.

Yeah, he was pretty clear. It wasn't that he wanted to do more TMNT comics, just that he couldn't in good conscience sell all the rights if the possibility of him doing more TMNT comics -- namely, the rest of Vol. 4 -- was gone. That would have ate at him too much, and I get it.

Could he not be a co-writer and let someone else do most of the work?

That's where it's a little murky. It sounds like he'd need to be -- at least -- more than just an editor. His name would have to be on some variation of story and/or art to a large extent.

And would it have to have been a continuation of Vol. 4?

Nope. In one of the Q&As I asked him if, under the 18 comics a year clause, there would be anything stopping him from doing a "TMNT vs. Predator" project by himself if Dark Horse was on board. He said he didn't see why not.

Or could it also be more Tales of the TMNT comics or even approving your TMNT Odyssey and Origin as a Mirage book.

I could be wrong, but I wonder if -- and I've talked to others who might be a little more "in the know" -- maybe books like "Odyssey" and "Origin" might have rubbed him the wrong way. Not because of what's in them, but because they're Mirage stuff done outside the auspices of even his 18 book clause that he fought for and all.

But maybe not. I'm not sure.

[member_removed]

I could be wrong, but I wonder if -- and I've talked to others who might be a little more "in the know" -- maybe books like "Odyssey" and "Origin" might have rubbed him the wrong way. Not because of what's in them, but because they're Mirage stuff done outside the auspices of even his 18 book clause.

But maybe not. I'm not sure.

Have you heard anything from Jim Lawson. I mean if Pete was really upset by crowdfunded Mirage projects, could he not tap Jim on the shoulder and say "not cool".

[LeotheLateBloomer]

Yeah, he was pretty clear. It wasn't that he wanted to do more TMNT comics, just that he couldn't in good conscience sell all the rights if the possibility of him doing more TMNT comics -- namely, the rest of Vol. 4 -- was gone. That would have ate at him too much, and I get it.

Do you think he ever considered selling the property to Kevin before?

[Leo656]

Do you think he ever considered selling the property to Kevin before?

Asking Kevin Eastman to manage your business is kinda like asking Timothy McVeigh to find and defuse the bomb.

[Andrew NDB]

Do you think he ever considered selling the property to Kevin before?

I don't get the sense that Kevin was ever in a place to buy the property. He sold his half of the TMNT rights to Peter in 2000 and beyond Heavy Metal magazine, which wasn't exactly a huge moneymaker in the 2000s, didn't really have a whole lot else going on.

According to Google Kevin's net worth now in 2022 is 20 million. And "net worth" just means things like properties owned and cars and stocks, not just the money in the bank. And no way would Peter sell it all for much less than the 62 it went for. I am a little curious how much, exactly, Peter gave Kevin for his half of the rights in 2000.

[Leo656]

A McRib sandwich, a carton of cigarettes, and a bunch of old episodes of Sex Court that he taped off the TV. That's what I heard.

[LeotheLateBloomer]

I don't get the sense that Kevin was ever in a place to buy the property. He sold his half of the TMNT rights to Peter in 2000 and beyond Heavy Metal magazine, which wasn't exactly a huge moneymaker in the 2000s, didn't really have a whole lot else going on.

According to Google Kevin's net worth now in 2022 is 20 million. And "net worth" just means things like properties owned and cars and stocks, not just the money in the bank. And no way would Peter sell it all for much less than the 62 it went for. I am a little curious how much, exactly, Peter gave Kevin for his half of the rights in 2000.

I'm curious to know how after the sale, Kevin suddenly comes back and gets involved with projects like some issues of IDW, voicing a character in the Nick show, and a few other things. "Money talks"...?

[AquaParade]

While money is always a driving factor, it does seem like he fell back in love with TMNT in some sense.

Maybe it was the freedom to do it without the weight of how Peter was going to feel or maybe it was him realizing this would be his legacy, above all else. Maybe the property surprised him by remaining popular, which changed his perspective on it.

Who knows, but it is interesting.

[Andrew NDB]

I'm curious to know how after the sale, Kevin suddenly comes back and gets involved with projects like some issues of IDW, voicing a character in the Nick show, and a few other things. "Money talks"...?

Well, I was involved a bit in that part, the comic side anyway. He was already involved with whatever incarnation the 2014 movie was before Bay came in. He wanted back in. And was totally cool about it. He was itching to tell like a new TMNT maxi-series that'd be a sequel to Mirage RTNY and I agreed 200% that he should be able to do it, wherever the rights ended up. I definitely tried to fight for that at different potential publishers when that was in the air. I wish that's what would've ended up happening. As it was, we (well, "we," but as soon as it got to IDW I was unneeded as he already knew the main guy there, and that was cool as I was only trying to help, mostly in the face of trying to get the Image finisher done officially, which Kevin was a HUGE advocate of) got some kind of compromise when the pendulum swung to IDW which is fine and generally what happens no matter where you go.

[member_removed]

Well, I was involved a bit in that part, the comic side anyway. He was already involved with whatever incarnation the 2014 movie was before Bay came in. He wanted back in. And was totally cool about it. He was itching to tell like a new TMNT maxi-series that'd be a sequel to Mirage RTNY and I agreed 200% that he should be able to do it, wherever the rights ended up. I definitely tried to fight for that at different potential publishers when that was in the air. I wish that's what would've ended up happening. As it was, we (well, "we," but as soon as it got to IDW I was unneeded as he already knew the main guy there, and that was cool as I was only trying to help, mostly in the face of trying to get the Image finisher done officially, which Kevin was a HUGE advocate of) got some kind of compromise when the pendulum swung to IDW which is fine and generally what happens no matter where you go.

So after the success of TLR, is there anything from stopping IDW doing a Mirage RTNY sequel?

Can IDW not do new Mirage stories due to things such as Peter's 18 issue clause?

[LeotheLateBloomer]

Well, I was involved a bit in that part, the comic side anyway. He was already involved with whatever incarnation the 2014 movie was before Bay came in. He wanted back in. And was totally cool about it. He was itching to tell like a new TMNT maxi-series that'd be a sequel to Mirage RTNY and I agreed 200% that he should be able to do it, wherever the rights ended up. I definitely tried to fight for that at different potential publishers when that was in the air. I wish that's what would've ended up happening. As it was, we (well, "we," but as soon as it got to IDW I was unneeded as he already knew the main guy there, and that was cool as I was only trying to help, mostly in the face of trying to get the Image finisher done officially, which Kevin was a HUGE advocate of) got some kind of compromise when the pendulum swung to IDW which is fine and generally what happens no matter where you go.

If you were needed, you probably could've talked them out of making TMNT jambalaya but it probably wasn't in your place, sadly.

[AquaParade]

The first handful of IDW issues showed a lot of promise, before it tried to be everything to everyone.

It was quaint, focused. They even introduced an interesting new antagonist, in Old Hob.
We had Leo and Donnie arguing science vs faith, which was both a new character dynamic and an interesting debate, before it was confirmed that the turtles were indeed resurrected, shortly after.

I like the resurrection angle quite a bit, but I think they should have let the debate play out further, because there was a a lot of character and story to mine there.

[mrmaczaps]

The first handful of IDW issues showed a lot of promise, before it tried to be everything to everyone.

It was quaint, focused. They even introduced an interesting new antagonist, in Old Hob.
We had Leo and Donnie arguing science vs faith, which was both a new character dynamic and an interesting debate, before it was confirmed that the turtles were indeed resurrected, shortly after.

I like the resurrection angle quite a bit, but I think they should have let the debate play out further, because there was a a lot of character and story to mine there.

Had great promise with them all wearing red... and Raph being "lost" for a time... then by issue 5 all thats gone.

[Monty Mole]

The first handful of IDW issues showed a lot of promise, before it tried to be everything to everyone.

It was quaint, focused. They even introduced an interesting new antagonist, in Old Hob.
We had Leo and Donnie arguing science vs faith, which was both a new character dynamic and an interesting debate, before it was confirmed that the turtles were indeed resurrected, shortly after.

I like the resurrection angle quite a bit, but I think they should have let the debate play out further, because there was a a lot of character and story to mine there.

Totally agree, I really enjoyed IDW up until the whole "Dark Leo" thing. I couldn't get back into it after that. I also never liked Alopex, and thought it would've been hilarious if Mikey managed to feed her one of his chocolate bars.

[Andrew NDB]

Totally agree, I really enjoyed IDW up until the whole "Dark Leo" thing. I couldn't get back into it after that.

Yeah. That's the story when it became really clear the book just wasn't moving in the direction I was hoping it would. Not even kind of.

No harm, no foul, though.

[Monty Mole]

Yeah. That's the story when it became really clear the book just wasn't moving in the direction I was hoping it would. Not even kind of.

No harm, no foul, though.

What were your thoughts on Leo getting brainwashed into joining the Foot?

[AquaParade]

Totally agree, I really enjoyed IDW up until the whole "Dark Leo" thing. I couldn't get back into it after that. I also never liked Alopex, and thought it would've been hilarious if Mikey managed to feed her one of his chocolate bars.

:lol::lol:

I didn't mind Alopex, but that's hilarious.

I checked out around the same time. Leo being brainwashed just isn't great drama, and since the drama had no bite, it made the "now I'm a bad guy outfit" come off even cornier than it would have otherwise.

"Dark Leo". :roll:

[Andrew NDB]

What were your thoughts on Leo getting brainwashed into joining the Foot?

I liked it well enough. I just thought the whole story was going to be about Leonardo getting pushed to kill, killing, and the story itself in retrospect being an examination of what it means to take a life but otherwise one step towards the TMNT being more like ninjas. Instead, it wasn't much of anything.

[Monty Mole]

I liked it well enough. I just thought the whole story was going to be about Leonardo getting pushed to kill, killing, and the story itself in retrospect being an examination of what it means to take a life but otherwise one step towards the TMNT being more like ninjas. Instead, it wasn't much of anything.

I get that, that would've been cool. I personally just hate when stories do this whole brainwashing drama ****. I really liked what Tony Day did with his "Turtle Turncoat" fan comic where Raph joins the Foot, but he does it with his own free will Instead of just getting kidnapped, strapped to a table and having voodoo **** done to him.

Manipulating or convincing is one thing, but just getting brainwashed/hypnotized is just lazy and cringy writing to me. Unless maybe they took pieces of his brain out or something like that.

[Coola Yagami]

I get that, that would've been cool. I personally just hate when stories do this whole brainwashing drama ****. I really liked what Tony Day did with his "Turtle Turncoat" fan comic where Raph joins the Foot, but he does it with his own free will Instead of just getting kidnapped, strapped to a table and having voodoo **** done to him.

Manipulating or convincing is one thing, but just getting brainwashed/hypnotized is just lazy and cringy writing to me. Unless maybe they took pieces of his brain out or something like that.

Whatever happened to that story? Is the site still up?

[Monty Mole]

Whatever happened to that story? Is the site still up?

He finished it. You can read it here http://www.trydowave.com/index.htm

[Prowler]

Sometimes I imagine myself discussing TMNT with Laird over a few beers... I feel like he'd end up getting cranky and would tell me he wasted his life on the Turtles, and that his creation has pretty much become unrecognisable anyway.