Are comic books basically just published fanfiction these days?

[CyberCubed]

Like outside of creator owned/published comic books like Stan Sakai with Usagi Yojimbo, any time a writer comes on board to write a comic for DC, Marvel or TMNT...isn't it just pretty much published fanfiction?

Let's imagine IDW TMNT for a minute even under Waltz run from issue #1-100. If you told anyone the main story beats that happened in IDW TMNT prior to the year 2011...wouldn't it just sound like published fanfiction? Like you can probably go to fanfiction.net and read old TMNT fanfics published between the years 1998-2005 or so where people did similar things bringing back original cartoon characters and mixing it with Mirage TMNT characters or whatever. Or go to deviantart and read old fan comics from the early 2000's.

Aside from comic books being officially licensed and published, isn't it all just someones very well done official fanfiction at this point?

[Monty Mole]

All the big names definitely are

[Monty Mole]

I've read a few fan comics that were miles better than most official TMNT stuff we're getting.

One of them being "Showdown" by Dmitry Grozov

https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/54d1de90-3113-4929-94bb-9526fa527e3b/db6loaj-64b87ca5-7456-4a44-a9c8-aace77a51008.png/v1/fill/w_1024,h_1585,q_80,strp/tmnt__showdown___chapter_one_red_by_ahrrr_db6loaj-fullview.jpg?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI 1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNh NWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMT g4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7 ImhlaWdodCI6Ijw9MTU4NSIsInBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcLzU0ZDFkZT kwLTMxMTMtNDkyOS05NGJiLTk1MjZmYTUyN2UzYlwvZGI2bG9h ai02NGI4N2NhNS03NDU2LTRhNDQtYTljOC1hYWNlNzdhNTEwMD gucG5nIiwid2lkdGgiOiI8PTEwMjQifV1dLCJhdWQiOlsidXJu OnNlcnZpY2U6aW1hZ2Uub3BlcmF0aW9ucyJdfQ.Igua2IOtUz6 E3ZuuvNEtBjUOYd9LU-yN4SDPtdWszIU

[Andrew NDB]

Like you can probably go to fanfiction.net and read old TMNT fanfics published between the years 1998-2005 or so where people did similar things bringing back original cartoon characters and mixing it with Mirage TMNT characters or whatever. Or go to deviantart and read old fan comics from the early 2000's.

Yes. And suddenly creating TMNT jambalaya was treated as this uniquely good thing, when it's anything but. It's just human centipeding 4th party waste and pretending it is fresh and something new.

[IMJ]

Publishers and writers have also gotten away from solid narratives and more into the "shock moments". Relying on things like burning the lower half of Wolverine's body away down to the bone as the punchline for an entire issue rather than any narrative function.

I think it's a testimony to how shallow a generation of writers are nowadays that the best they can do are one panel character moments or identity-politics rather than any real examination of a character.

[Zog The Magnificent]

As far as mainstream comics go? Absolutely. You want quality, you go to smaller publishers, one-off "out of universe" tales, or creator-owned comics. Most of the stuff I read these days comes from Image.

[TheLabRat]

The issues with IDW TMNT is the bloated cast. Who cares about Carmen or Bob? Why do you need Nova Posse involved The Armageddon Game arc when you already have Neutrinos? Lot of the random Archie comics stuff, but Waltz or Campbell hadn't found a way to bring any of them into the story.

For now, the four Turtles feel like the extras, not main characters. Worse, they've become lamest weakling ninja turtles ever.

[CyberCubed]

Yeah I was never fond at how IDW always seemed to introduce 100 new characters every few issues (yes I know I'm exaggerating the number but you get the point). I actually forgot some characters existed before I looked over some older issues again, like I forgot that pet dinosaur Bebop/Rocksteady had was now a mutant (it was last seen in the battle of the bands arc), and hasn't been seen since.

There's also a lot of extra unnecessary characters like Natsu or whatever her name is, Karai's friend with all the tattoo's. Why is she even here? And as said the Nova Posse were kinda pointless since the Neutrinos serve the exact same role.

[Allio]

I mean isn’t anything that doesn’t have original creators input basically just gloried fanfiction?

[biganimefan]

I mean isn’t anything that doesn’t have original creators input basically just gloried fanfiction?

Pretty much exactly what I thought too! Take all the franchises out there that have outlasted their original creator, Marvel, DC, Star Trek, and Doctor Who being examples. The current showrunners and headwriters in most cases that I know of were fans as children.

[neatoman]

I mean isn’t anything that doesn’t have original creators input basically just gloried fanfiction?

Difficult question to answer. Derivative works themselves are obviously nothing new but I'm not sure sure anyone would think of anything using public domain characters as fan fiction. Then of course we have works of fiction which use multiple authors from day one. I think the most useful way of defining fan fiction is in relation to copyright, basically we can define it depending on what the answer is to these questions:

Was it sanctioned by the copyright holder?
Is the original work in the public domain?

If the answer is yes to either of these questions, then it probably does not qualify as fan fiction. If it's not to both, then it does qualify as fan fiction.

Of course, I guess the heart of the original question as stated in the opening post is more like "Are comics prone to the same cringe worthy fanfic elements you associate with DeviantArt and Tumblr due to publishers hiring just about anyone to make them because of the constant need to pump out comics?". Which… Yes, have been for a long time unfortunately.

[CyberCubed]

Star Trek is a good example Gene Roddenberry died during The Next Generation series, but Star Trek continued to go on over 30 years after his death. Would any of Star Trek be "his vision" after that?

Bill Finger created Batman. If he were still alive today, would he view what modern Batman is in either comics, movies or cartoons to be what he considered his creation back in 1930's-1940's? Probably not

It's a lot different than Japanese anime/manga, where a series is made by one creator and then it usually ends and doesn't go on with other writers (most of the time). We even saw when that happened with Dragon Ball GT in the 90's without Toriyama and that's why it bombed.

[sdp]

The idea that something needs to go on forever is a horrible one and especially bad in comics. I don't care much about marvel/dc anymore because those characters are never allowed to evolve, it's just the same stories over and over in slight remixes and or bad takes.

TMNT works better set in the 80s and 90s when it was created, the same as the cape superheroes worked better in the original setting they were created and adapting them to modern times creates issues and explanations and whatnot. we need new sh-t instead of trying to shove old properties that worked in the past. I think I'm not excited in general about the TMNT anymore since it's always going to be a remix of the stuff I've already seen, even "different" stuff like Rise of the TMNT is not that different from what TMNT is.

American comics are indeed glorified fan-fiction but it's such a small niche market so it doesn't bother me as much, they have no real influence. The Manga way is clearly superior which is why Manga overtook comics in the US and the rest of the world. New generations found media that actually kept up with the times in Manga.
I mean isn’t anything that doesn’t have original creators input basically just gloried fanfiction?

I think there's a fine line. Look at the Boom! Power Rangers comics or most Star wars comics and books. Many if not most of them feel like fan fiction. Even the movies or new shows. But you can have other properties that were revived well even if radically different from the original vision. It also has nothing to do with whether a show is successful or not.

The Netflix Voltron? Fanfiction with Voltron character names
Neflix Death Note? Bad interpretation of the source material but still Death Note.

[Prowler]

TMNT is a 40+ years old property by now. The younger generations of comic writers writing and drawing TMNT comics nowadays will, mot likely, have grown up as fans of the TMNT property. Therefore... sure.

Same goes for people working on any other old enough property or series nowadays. If you grew up, let's say, as a Family Guy fan, and get hired to write scripts for the next Family Guy season... you'll technically be writing fanfiction.

I see people using the "this sounds like glorified fanfiction" argument when a story is poorly written or something illogical or that feels forced happens, though.

[frank_one]

I think you should never hire a writer because of his knowledge of a property, but because of his being good at writing. You need a good writer, not a good fan.

[Coola Yagami]

I think you should never hire a writer because of his knowledge of a property, but because of his being good at writing. You need a good writer, not a good fan.

I'd say both. A good writer yes, but they should also either know the source material or at least read up on it before signing up to write a pre-established character or series.

Imagine writing the next mainline Batman run and randomly tossing Alfred in there without explanation because the new guy had no idea the character has been dead for years.

[frank_one]

A good writer researches and studies the source material, he doesn't need to be a fan of it.

[Jephael]

At this point I could care less what they do with the TMNT because they've already gotten their fair share of attention through the years! I feel more bad for the Mighty Mutanimals who barely get recognized! I would have loved it if IDW had made the Mutanimals be more like they were in the old Archie comics, but they ruined that opportunity by having the team formed and lead by Old Hob of all characters, and that will always rub me the wrong way! The 2012 show's version of the group had promise but for some reason they felt the team could only have 4 members to mirror the Turtles, which I always found kinda stupid. Seth Rogen's group almost got it right, but they altered certain characters way too much, especially Mondo Gecko!

[TigerClaw]

I would also like see more of the mighty mutanimals. Its the reason why I created all of them as characters in Sora. To be able to play around with them.

[Coola Yagami]

A good writer researches and studies the source material, he doesn't need to be a fan of it.

eh... yes and no. Writing without passion shows in the work. It's easier to write Batman with passion if you at least cared about the character sometime in your life.

[CyberCubed]

I mean that's the thing, we're now 30+ years later so now all the "fans" and "kid audience" are now the ones in the industry writing comics, TV shows and movies. We've gotten to the point where everyone in our generation (30-40+ year olds) were the original target audience 30 years ago, and the ones who are now in the industry are doing the writing.

So in other words, everything is written by fans now. It's basically like fanfiction.

[IMJ]

I think it's the quality and establishment of "character" that qualifies that criticism or invalidates it.

Comic books, over the last ten years or so, have practically been a parody of everything that came before it. You have traumatized weirdos writing comics with blunt-force messaging, lacking in all articulation or nuance that came with previous "commentary" decades before.

Star Trek is a TREMENDOUS example of this that clown-world supporters typically disregard when they rely on the "Trek was ALWAYS progressive" defense.

And I see a lot of fan-fic levels in modern movies - especially direct to Netflix or Direct to Amazon material. Elements where a writer has a grand idea about a character but just implies it and goes on with the "cliche brilliance" without and true depth of execution or any true moment that makes you "care" about the character over the "assumption that the character is xyz...".

There's a ton of professional fan fic going around. Hell, even that new "War Machine" netflix movie, which was a lot of fun to watch was still entirely derivative. Not "influenced by", but "derived from"....

[ToTheNines]

Another poetic rant from IMJ haha. Well said!

At this point, all IP fiction is fan-fiction. It’s just a matter of whether it’s good or not.

To keep it in a TMNT perspective, consider early Mirage. Pretty much everyone Kevin and Peter brought in was a fan of their work beforehand. But they were essentially the editors and put their stamp of approval on it, so no one really thinks twice about it.

Fastforward to 2002. More than half of Tales Vol. 2 was written by Murphy/Lawson/Berger, but the rest of the creatives were definitely fans that got their foot in the door. Some stinkers in there, but still published under Mirage so that’s a huge token of legitimacy.

Now? I don’t really accept most of the crap IDW tries to pass off as Mirage canon. But I do consider the Turtles Club stuff canon.

But something can still be good and not pass the “canon test”. I love Saturday Morning Adventures and look forward to it every month, but it’s just not in the actual FW continuity and I don’t care what anyone says.

[IMJ]

Thank you, thank you, I do what I can.

In some circles it's applauded or bare minimum, understood even if disputed.

In the lowest of circles it's like being surrounded by grammar-school pukes who hate you for your insight, yet circle around to listen to every word you have to say. But then they follow it up by intentionally withholding normalized discussion so as to project their autistic-disdain while firmly pressing their lips into a teeny tiny frowny shape.

You're the first circle. Many others here are the second circle.

[TheLabRat]

Now? I don’t really accept most of the crap IDW tries to pass off as Mirage canon.


I don't like they Introduce unnecessary characters from other series just to said, "Hey! Do you remember these character?" For example, Cobra King, even in Mirage comic, this character is just background character. If they bring this character into IDW Shredder new comic series, then at least this character should become one of Shredder's main rival and cause him a lot of trouble, rather than just cheaply showcasing Shredder's power.

[ToTheNines]

I’m fine with them doing an IDW version of any imaginable character, but yes that was cringe.

Why dig that character out of relative obscurity only to dunk on him?

[Jephael]

I don't care if this is gonna fall on deaf ears or not, but in all honesty, I've come to detest the term "canon". The TMNT get re-written and rebooted all the time, just like Batman, Spider-Man and every other comic book/animated property out there! It's just meant to be fun entertainment. Quit taking it so damn seriously!

[Smithguy789]

I don't care if this is gonna fall on deaf ears or not, but in all honesty, I've come to detest the term "canon". The TMNT get re-written and rebooted all the time, just like Batman, Spider-Man and every other comic book/animated property out there! It's just meant to be fun entertainment. Quit taking it so damn seriously!

This right here. I used to be a die-hard 'Canon vs noncanon' kind of fan and I just got tired of it. I don't need a corporation to tell me what "counts." I'll decide what counts for me, regardless how it fits with other stories.

[ToTheNines]

Well everything is different. Usagi Yojimbo is basically all Stan Sakai, so whatever he says goes, in my book. Mirage TMNT was always more of a collaboration, so there is a lot of grey area. Some of it is based on legal crap, which is lame. So when Peter declared “The River” non-canon, I just ignored that.

If IDW can tell good Mirage stories, I’m open to it. But so far Batman/TMNT III and Battle Nexus haven’t been worthy, in my book.

I did like the Stranger Things crossover though.

[Zog The Magnificent]

Something something "Take what you like, ignore the rest" etc.

But more seriously, "canon" vs "noncanon" will and always has been important because you need a baseline to be able to actually talk about and engage with a story, especially one that develops sequentially. ANY story. If there isn't a baseline of what did or didn't happen, it very quickly becomes impossible to talk about a story in any meaningful way. If everything happens, then nothing happens.

[ToTheNines]

I don't know what's wrong with you young people. You think you just fell out of a coconut tree? :lol:

You exist in the context of all in which you live and what came before you.

Something something "Take what you like, ignore the rest" etc.

But more seriously, "canon" vs "noncanon" will and always has been important because you need a baseline to be able to actually talk about and engage with a story, especially one that develops sequentially. ANY story. If there isn't a baseline of what did or didn't happen, it very quickly becomes impossible to talk about a story in any meaningful way. If everything happens, then nothing happens.

Agreed, as per usual. Otherwise there’s no point in an ongoing narrative, and you might as well make it an anthology series if you’re just completely disregarding canon.

[Barkworm]

But that‘s the problem with all things non-creator-owned: Who decides what is canon and what is not? And how much can the concept of a canon matter if plot elements can just be retconned on a whim?

[Andrew NDB]

Star Trek is a TREMENDOUS example of this that clown-world supporters typically disregard when they rely on the "Trek was ALWAYS progressive" defense.

Don't even get me started on those fu**tards...

Trek has always been progressive-ish, sure... but up until Kurtzman came into the picture Trek had also never been written at about a 6th grade level of quality by people who hate Trek.

But that‘s the problem with all things non-creator-owned: Who decides what is canon and what is not? And how much can the concept of a canon matter if plot elements can just be retconned on a whim?

All good questions. Relevant more than ever since nowadays we have editors who don't even really do their job and gatekeep continuity.

[Smithguy789]

Something something "Take what you like, ignore the rest" etc.

But more seriously, "canon" vs "noncanon" will and always has been important because you need a baseline to be able to actually talk about and engage with a story, especially one that develops sequentially. ANY story. If there isn't a baseline of what did or didn't happen, it very quickly becomes impossible to talk about a story in any meaningful way. If everything happens, then nothing happens.

I'm going off my own experiences and perceptions here, but it seems to me like Canon DID mean something until it became part of how the mainstream engages with art. Take Star Trek (since others were talking about it), when I got into Trek, none of the novels/comics were canon, and the animated series was dubious. And in my experience, people accepted that and moved on and engaged with what they wanted to.

But now? I hear/read people say "don't watch that, it's not canon" or "that's not canon dont waste your time reading it" or "canon episode lists" for anime, like canon is a universal arbiter of quality (which it ain't).

All that to say (and I know how hipster it sounds, but whatever), canon meant something when only nerds knew what it meant. Now the normies know and use it to tell others what to engage with, and it no longer has any meaning.

[ToTheNines]

But that‘s the problem with all things non-creator-owned: Who decides what is canon and what is not?

In general, whoever is actively telling the ongoing narrative at the time. But ultimately, the reader.

I guess a creator could reveal game-changing information about the story years later, but really a body of work speaks for itself once production has stopped. At which point it’s up to the individual to imagine what happens after the final scene.

And how much can the concept of a canon matter if plot elements can just be retconned on a whim?

This is mostly a problem with comics more than any other medium. Anything can be retconned, and readers/viewers can take it or leave it. I think more often than not, they accept it and move on. But if you’re abusing it, you’ll lose the audience.

But yeah, this is precisely why a lot of people don’t bother with DC/Marvel any more.

or "canon episode lists" for anime, like canon is a universal arbiter of quality (which it ain't).

I strongly agree, but I can give people the benefit of the doubt there and assume they’re trying to help people not waste their time.

Perfect TMNT example: anyone here remember IDW’s “Infestation 2: TMNT” by Tristan Jones? To this day, still one of the best original stories they’ve put out. But even though they were being cute about it back in 2012, it’s definitely not canon. So if someone was wanting to read all of the IDW run starting at the very beginning, that is a daunting task. As much as I like Infestation 2, I would recommend they skip it if they’re just starting out, but only because you have like 400 other comics the get through lol.

I would also throw out Conspiracy, Deviations, 20/20, Batman crossovers, When/Where, and anything else in that zone.

[Barkworm]

In general, whoever is actively telling the ongoing narrative at the time. But ultimately, the reader.
Which brings us back to the thread title!

[Coola Yagami]

This is mostly a problem with comics more than any other medium. Anything can be retconned, and readers/viewers can take it or leave it. I think more often than not, they accept it and move on. But if you’re abusing it, you’ll lose the audience.



That's kinda why I don't care whenever there's a video or article about some epic event or death that happened in anything but the mainline comic. Who cares if Absolute Batman or Ultimate Spider-Man or whoever flips out and suddenly snaps the neck of their arch nemesis cause they pushed them one more time. Unless it happens in the canon comics, who cares. And even then.... it might get retconned or rebooted away in a few years anyway.

[frank_one]

This is mostly a problem with comics more than any other medium. Anything can be retconned, and readers/viewers can take it or leave it. I think more often than not, they accept it and move on. But if you’re abusing it, you’ll lose the audience.

But yeah, this is precisely why a lot of people don’t bother with DC/Marvel any more.
I agree. All they do is killing and resurrecting the same characters and when they have no more ideas they start to play with alternate universes. It's all trash. That's what IDW has been doing with the Turtles for years as well. Not for me.

[ToTheNines]

Which brings us back to the thread title!

Ha, yeah. And my final answer is: who cares as long as it’s good?

They haven’t gone crazy with it, but I’m beyond hesitant to take anything IDW does with the Mirage continuity seriously when they only bust it out on special occasions. (What’s stopping them from hiring Tristan, Lawson or Berger to tell more stories?)

Whereas Andrew and Arseniy’s stuff is fan-fiction, by definition. But they hire Mirage artists and they’ve done their homework (obviously lol). They take a while between releases since they have their jobs and whatnot, but they’re the ones telling the ongoing Mirage and Archie narratives while no one else is.

That's kinda why I don't care whenever there's a video or article about some epic event or death that happened in anything but the mainline comic. Who cares if Absolute Batman or Ultimate Spider-Man or whoever flips out and suddenly snaps the neck of their arch nemesis cause they pushed them one more time. Unless it happens in the canon comics, who cares. And even then.... it might get retconned or rebooted away in a few years anyway.

Right. I keep them at arm’s length. Basically I only check anything out if I hear it’s good, and even then I wait until the whole run is over and confirm it gets a decent ending before wasting my time. It’s not worth it otherwise.

I agree. All they do is killing and resurrecting the same characters and when they have no more ideas they start to play with alternate universes. It's all trash. That's what IDW has been doing with the Turtles for years as well. Not for me.

Yeah, they’re actively trying to turn it into a DC book.

[Barkworm]

Ha, yeah. And my final answer is: who cares as long as it’s good?
In principle, sure. A good story should be able to stand on its own.

But on the other hand, if you get invested in fiction, you need some emotional weight behind it and the sense of consequence. Both will be dramatically diminished if you get the feeling that the people in charge of canonizing story elements don‘t take things seriously that had an impact on you. And that‘s when your enjoyment of something can decrease retrospectively.

Or does anyone still enjoy the original Star Wars Trilogy as much as when you first watched it?

[Smithguy789]

Perfect TMNT example: anyone here remember IDW’s “Infestation 2: TMNT” by Tristan Jones? To this day, still one of the best original stories they’ve put out. But even though they were being cute about it back in 2012, it’s definitely not canon.

At the risk of sounding like a hypocrite after my whole "canon doesn't matter" rant, as far as I'm concerned, Infestation 2 is the Mirage Turtles. To the point where I made my own bootleg copy with greyscale scans that combines both issues into one, so it's chunky and in b&w like a Mirage book. I just ignore the Old Hob reference and I love that lil series to death.

[FrederikWolferson]

Well, Sophie Campbell's run was definitely bad fan fiction.

[TheLabRat]

Even current official works consider "Karai is a member of the Oroku family" setting as "canon".

Although they say Mikey has the "greatest potential," but in most official works, the spotlight is mostly on Leo and Raph.

[Andrew NDB]

Even current official works consider "Karai is a member of the Oroku family" setting as "canon".

Anything saying that (about or even alluding to Mirage, at least) is outing itself as something with zero credibility.

[IMJ]

I don't care if this is gonna fall on deaf ears or not, but in all honesty, I've come to detest the term "canon". The TMNT get re-written and rebooted all the time, just like Batman, Spider-Man and every other comic book/animated property out there! It's just meant to be fun entertainment. Quit taking it so damn seriously!

For decades in comics "canon" was a point of fan interest - long running volume 1 DC and Marvel had fans remembering everything that happened along the way and they wanted connections. It was fun. And then the re-launch era of "NEW #1# began and as that devolved into the industry constantly relaunching titles "canon" became "whatever happens this volume".

Now as a side-point, even Torpedo Comics - super high-end curator and seller of books just announced that they won't be carrying new-monthly-books anymore. Along with Mile High doing something similar a while back.

Maybe the publishers should have stuck with "canon".

It could probably be argued that the fans who like "canon" aren't taking it too seriously, but the fans who go to a convention and ask William Shatner why Kirk did what he did in episode XYZ when he could have done ABC instead are indeed taking it to seriously.

Either way, interesting point you've raised.

[TheLabRat]

I think it's always depends on the execution and how long they can stick to it. For me, I would prefer to see IDW Casey continue as the leader of Purple Dragon, turn Purple Dragon into neighborhood watch and prove himself to be better than his father, Instead of letting him lose everything, and even become an uncertain role in the current storyline.

[ToTheNines]

At the risk of sounding like a hypocrite after my whole "canon doesn't matter" rant, as far as I'm concerned, Infestation 2 is the Mirage Turtles. To the point where I made my own bootleg copy with greyscale scans that combines both issues into one, so it's chunky and in b&w like a Mirage book. I just ignore the Old Hob reference and I love that lil series to death.

Dude, that’s awesome! Would you be willing to sell me a copy?

I basically consider it Mirage, too. Tristan incorporated it into his “Gang Wars” short from the 40th anniversary special.

[Powder]

Very curious to get a look at that myself. :tshifty:

[Nortock Diab]

Same here!

[Smithguy789]

Honestly, I wouldn't feel right taking money for the thing. But here's a drive with the files I used, including the cover. The pdf is already sized for standard comic book size.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1RPPWV7WAGBIpjONlDQfxCHw4xzc-edu5

I'll dig out my copy and post pics tonight