Dragon Ball Daima

[neatoman]

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So like... Watchmen Babies?

[Coola Yagami]

Stupidest thing ever. They got two entire sagas to animate, four if they want to retell the movies.

[TheCanadiandrome]

I am both confused and intrigued at the same time

[Mad Dog McMutt]

I am a diehard Dragonball fan, but they have really need to lay this franchise to rest if they are only going to crap on it's legacy. Dragonball Super was god awful and was an abomination the same way that Rise of the Ninja Turtles was. I have absolutely no faith in this new Dragonball series being any good. Akira used to be a creative genius, but he has most certainly lost his touch.

[ZariusTwo]

It's just GT again only everyone's a kid.

[TheCanadiandrome]

It's just GT again only everyone's a kid.

Pretty much yeah

[CyberCubed]

While it might still be good, it's weird how most new Dragon Ball stuff just feels like glorified fanfiction or re-treads of older things. Even with Toriyama involved. I enjoyed most of Super but power scaling/transformations pretty much mean nothing anymore.

It's kind of a shame since Dragonball originally ended in 1995 and its basically turned into one of those never ending anime franchises aimed to sell toys and merch.

[Powder]

While it might still be good, it's weird how most new Dragon Ball stuff just feels like glorified fanfiction or re-treads of older things. Even with Toriyama involved. I enjoyed most of Super but power scaling/transformations pretty much mean nothing anymore.

It's kind of a shame since Dragonball originally ended in 1995 and its basically turned into one of those never ending anime franchises aimed to sell toys and merch.

That's literally everything now, man. Turtles, too. Sucks, eh? Sometimes they try new things, but it gets rejected, thus the cycle continues.

[CyberCubed]

The thing is as said, Dragon Ball wasn't supposed to be like that. It wasn't like say TMNT, Pokemon, or The Simpsons where it could just go on or be rebooted forever, it had an ending.

Sure there's the videogames that always had alternate universe stories, but they weren't canon and it was just dumb stuff for videogames so it didn't matter. But continuing the franchise with "canon" series is a different story. It's weird since most shonen anime are written with an "ending" in mind and aren't intended to go on forever.

I assume the only way Dragon Ball will end again is when Arika Toriyama quits/retires/dies or something and Toei would be reluctant to continue without him again. Goku's VA is like 86 in Japan, so I also don't know how much longer they're willing to go if she gets too old/sick and can't do the voice anymore.

[Powder]

So long as there is money to be made, & toy companies have a say in things, they'll all go on forever. You just have to find the key to immortality so you don't miss any of it!

[oldmanwinters]

Hmmm….

It's just GT again only everyone's a kid.

Wonder if the chibi concept will last through the whole show or get abandoned/revamped after the first arc or two.

[CyberCubed]

I believe this is just a 20 or so episode web anime, it's not considered a continuation of Super or the next big arc. According to Dragon Ball fans it even takes place before Beerus comes to Earth, so it's actually a prequel to everything from Super. Meaning this arc takes place shortly after they defeat Kid Buu at the end of DBZ and before Beerus.

[oldmanwinters]

I believe this is just a 20 or so episode web anime, it's not considered a continuation of Super or the next big arc. According to Dragon Ball fans it even takes place before Beerus comes to Earth, so it's actually a prequel to everything from Super. Meaning this arc takes place shortly after they defeat Kid Buu at the end of DBZ and before Beerus.

Oh, so is this gonna revert everybody back to adults except the Pilaf gang, who stay kids for the whole DBS series? I don’t even remember if the full backstory on how Team Pilaf went young again and why none of the heroes seem to take issue with them hanging around Capsule Corp all the time.

[neatoman]

If this takes place between the defeat of Boo and the arrival of Beerus, why aren't the Kaioshin and Kibito fused?

[TheCanadiandrome]

Oh, so is this gonna revert everybody back to adults except the Pilaf gang, who stay kids for the whole DBS series? I don’t even remember if the full backstory on how Team Pilaf went young again and why none of the heroes seem to take issue with them hanging around Capsule Corp all the time.

The back story of how the Pilaf gang went young is like the very first episode of GT

[drgon78]

Looks like GT all over again.

[Coola Yagami]

The back story of how the Pilaf gang went young is like the very first episode of GT

No... they were old and stayed old in GT.

They wished for youth in Super but the Dragon took it too literal and made them into kids.

[oldmanwinters]

The back story of how the Pilaf gang went young is like the very first episode of GT

No, in GT the gang was really old and wanted Goku small or “a kid” again. In Super, they just kinda show up as kids in episode 4 and nobody from the Dragon team thinks its weird.

[CyberCubed]

No, in GT the gang was really old and wanted Goku small or “a kid” again. In Super, they just kinda show up as kids in episode 4 and nobody from the Dragon team thinks its weird.

They show how they turn into kids in the Beerus movie. For some reason the episode adaptions in Super left that out.

[Coola Yagami]

No, in GT the gang was really old and wanted Goku small or “a kid” again. In Super, they just kinda show up as kids in episode 4 and nobody from the Dragon team thinks its weird.

Nobody really recognizes them, though sometimes I wonder if Bulma does and just plays along.

The stranger part is none of the OG Dragon Crew recognize Future Mai. Though it's been a while since I seen the anime, I know that in the manga, Future Mai got to meet everyone.

[TheCanadiandrome]

No, in GT the gang was really old and wanted Goku small or “a kid” again. In Super, they just kinda show up as kids in episode 4 and nobody from the Dragon team thinks its weird.

No... they were old and stayed old in GT.

They wished for youth in Super but the Dragon took it too literal and made them into kids.

Oh ye my bad lol. It’s been too long since I’ve watched GT, clearly lol, and little while since watched the beginnings of Super

[oldmanwinters]

Nobody really recognizes them, though sometimes I wonder if Bulma does and just plays along.

The stranger part is none of the OG Dragon Crew recognize Future Mai. Though it's been a while since I seen the anime, I know that in the manga, Future Mai got to meet everyone.

Sounds like they wished for a Kof-Kol-style "Forgetting Spell" along with their youth.

[TheCanadiandrome]

Nobody really recognizes them, though sometimes I wonder if Bulma does and just plays along.

The stranger part is none of the OG Dragon Crew recognize Future Mai. Though it's been a while since I seen the anime, I know that in the manga, Future Mai got to meet everyone.

I believe it does in the anime as well

[Mad Dog McMutt]

I believe the does in the anime as well
That is a funny looking sentence.

[TheCanadiandrome]

That is a funny looking sentence.

Forgive me I was….drunk :lol::lol:

I’m kidding ofc, one can’t drink while at work, but ye wow wtf was I doing lol

[neatoman]

New Trailer
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[Coola Yagami]

My only complaint is that it looks like it's gonna be Goku Time again. Everyone turns into kids, but Goku seems to be the only one that goes on this brand new adventure. We do see some scenes of Vegeta and Piccolo as kids fighting, but they don't seem to be in the same area Goku is when he ventures in this whole new world.

[CyberCubed]

Since it's kid Goku, I don't mind it mostly focusing on him, Supreme Kai and the new demon characters. Piccolo and Vegeta are still being marketed and getting toys, so they're probably going to be involved. The rest of the main cast will probably only be shown turned to kids at the start and that's it. Shame Krillin isn't at least going with them for the Dragonball vibes.

This looks like it could be a lot of fun, and strangely enough the Demon Realm was never really explored in any of Toriyama's canon stuff, just hints of it here and there. To this day I have no idea what the Demon Realm even is, since it's clearly not the afterlife or Hell that we know of, and the monsters/demons we've seen throughout the series seem to come from there.

[neatoman]

Alright so the first episode is out and it's pretty good, though there are some continuity problems.

It takes place after Majin Boo was defeated but before Beerus showed up, as evidenced by Trunks explicitly stating he's nine. Here's the weird part, it keeps with the world building of Super by stating the main reality is Universe 7 and even pays off set-up in the Moro arc by clarifying where the Namekians came from, but the problem is that it shows the Kaioshin and Kibito already having undone their fusion and having done so with the help of Boo. While there is some debate over whether it's the movie, manga or TV version of Battle of Gods that "really counts", all three of them clearly show them still being fused at that point and the manga and TV show both agree that it was undone by a Dragon Ball wish.

[CyberCubed]

People already speculated Shin and Kibito will probably accidentally fuse again in the last episode, to keep in continuity with Super. Remember in Battle of Gods we see Kibito Kai and Elder Kai watching the Beerus/Goku fight from Otherworld. I don't recall if we see him in the anime version but I'm pretty sure we do. I'm sure the staff know Supreme Kai and Kibito are fused again in Beerus introduction, so they'll probably have them accidentally fuse again by the last episode.

As for why Goku will ask them the same question twice why they de-fused a second time, it can be handwaved as "Goku is stupid" or "Goku forgot." In Super they said they wished Porunga to de-fuse them, so they probably can't use Buu a second time or Buu refuses.

[Autbot_Benz]

Daima is only in Japanese Sub right now. Dragonball anything is one of the few Anime's I do English Dub for. So I am gonna wait for that.

[Cowabung-Gal]

Daima is only in Japanese Sub right now. Dragonball anything is one of the few Anime's I do English Dub for. So I am gonna wait for that.

AI might soon replace the English Dub actors though. They’re already experimenting on that with Goku’s Japanese VA.

[CyberCubed]

After Goku's Japanese VA dies they'll probably do a full reboot of the franchise from the beginning of Dragon Ball and re-animate the entire manga from scratch with no filler and doing a 1:1 adaption like modern anime. They're most likely waiting until she passes away and do a proper reboot from DB to the end of DBZ.

It's obvious now that Dragon Ball is never going to be allowed to "end" again like it did after GT in 1997. There's always going to be something new even after Toriyama is gone. They still have some Super manga arcs to adapt and after that we'll probably get a full reboot of everything from the beginning. They might as well recast the entire Japanese VA, most of them have already been replaced like Japanese Bulma, Tien, Mr. Satan, etc. who all died over the years in Japan.

[neatoman]

After Goku's Japanese VA dies they'll probably do a full reboot of the franchise from the beginning of Dragon Ball and re-animate the entire manga from scratch with no filler and doing a 1:1 adaption like modern anime. They're most likely waiting until she passes away and do a proper reboot from DB to the end of DBZ.


I've often assumed a new adaptation would happen eventually, just not that it would be dependant on Nozawa's death.

Dragon Ball and and Dragon Ball Z are collectively 444 episodes long. The episode to volume ratio in adaptations after the manga has ended tends to be 2-3, which would mean the total episode count of a new adaptation would be between 84 and 126, which I'm gonna bet on being on the lower end seeing how much of the series is just fighting, training to fight, bringing dead people to life in a montage and quick gags. So about 90 episodes or so, maybe 110 at most, so a reduction to about 25% of what the old one had.

[CyberCubed]

I assume the reason they'd wait until she passes, is because whoever her successor will be will probably be cast relatively young (I don't imagine older than 30ish), so they can keep the new Goku VA around for the next 50 or so years. Doing a full remake of the series makes sense when you have a new set of VA's to keep around for another couple of decades.

And yeah they'll do it like modern anime with roughly 26 episode seasons, adapt the manga as 1:1 as they can so they can adapt everything in a timely manner. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if Daima is a "test" for a Dragon ball remake, they'll use this same type of animation and Kid Goku and it'll launch a reboot a few years from now.

[Coola Yagami]

Daima is only in Japanese Sub right now. Dragonball anything is one of the few Anime's I do English Dub for. So I am gonna wait for that.

Nothing wrong with watching the real show. Why wait for the knockoff dub?

I watched the end of Super while the dub was still dragging its feet. They fell so behind they were forced release the Broly movie that takes place after Super and the dub hasn't even gotten there yet at the time. LMAO.

[Mad Dog McMutt]

DBZ is my favorite cartoon of all time, but I have very low expectations for anything Dragonball related at this time. In my opinion Dragonball Super is an abomination filled with terrible story writing and an over abundance of transformations. I love the Dragonball franchise, but I like to pretend that Super doesn't exist at all. I predict that the writing in this new iteration will be just as bad as the writing in Super. I can't support a show filled with nothing but bad ideas that crap all over the franchise's legacy. I just now realized that I basically typed the same thing a year ago.

[Autbot_Benz]

Nothing wrong with watching the real show. Why wait for the knockoff dub?

I watched the end of Super while the dub was still dragging its feet. They fell so behind they were forced release the Broly movie that takes place after Super and the dub hasn't even gotten there yet at the time. LMAO.

cause I prefer the English Dub. It's what I grew up with when I watched DBZ on TV back in the day.

Also I don't care for the "Granny Goku" voice that the sub uses.

Dragonball anything and Cowboy Bebop are the only two anime's I go English for

[neatoman]

DBZ is my favorite cartoon of all time, but I have very low expectations for anything Dragonball related at this time. In my opinion Dragonball Super is an abomination filled with terrible story writing and an over abundance of transformations. I love the Dragonball franchise, but I like to pretend that Super doesn't exist at all. I predict that the writing in this new iteration will be just as bad as the writing in Super. I can't support a show filled with nothing but bad ideas that crap all over the franchise's legacy. I just now realized that I basically typed the same thing a year ago.

Nothing implies that problem so far. The Super anime's problems mostly stem from from being a rushed production based on notes rather than a complete synopsis, which is why the manga version is generally better with fewer cooks in the kitchen and more time to cook so to speak (even if the Zamasu conclusion doesn't make much sense there either).

Daima has been production for a few years and will really only be about 20 episodes. The first episode, as I said is pretty good, with the biggest problem with somehow attempting to keep continuity with Super but screwing up one major thing there. The episode makes it very clear who the villains are, what they are doing, why they are doing it and what they hope to achieve. The story itself is very well explained at this point.

The only somewhat worrying thing that is completely new is the the revelation that the Dragon Balls can be summoned to one place without physically collecting them one by one, and that they can reactiviated prematurely on command. Though I think this might be explained later on and why it hasn't been done before or since.

[Mad Dog McMutt]

Nothing implies that problem so far. The Super anime's problems mostly stem from from being a rushed production based on notes rather than a complete synopsis, which is why the manga version is generally better with fewer cooks in the kitchen and more time to cook so to speak (even if the Zamasu conclusion doesn't make much sense there either).

Daima has been production for a few years and will really only be about 20 episodes. The first episode, as I said is pretty good, with the biggest problem with somehow attempting to keep continuity with Super but screwing up one major thing there. The episode makes it very clear who the villains are, what they are doing, why they are doing it and what they hope to achieve. The story itself is very well explained at this point.

The only somewhat worrying thing that is completely new is the the revelation that the Dragon Balls can be summoned to one place without physically collecting them one by one, and that they can reactiviated prematurely on command. Though I think this might be explained later on and why it hasn't been done before or since.

Changing how the dragonballs work is a huge sin in my eyes. Just like Frieza being told by Beerus to blow up planet Vegeta. It's just a dumb idea that just wasn't necessary. Not only that, but it devalues already established continuity. I hate how much was retconned.

[Coola Yagami]

Daima has been production for a few years and will really only be about 20 episodes. The first episode, as I said is pretty good, with the biggest problem with somehow attempting to keep continuity with Super but screwing up one major thing there. The episode makes it very clear who the villains are, what they are doing, why they are doing it and what they hope to achieve. The story itself is very well explained at this point.

The only somewhat worrying thing that is completely new is the the revelation that the Dragon Balls can be summoned to one place without physically collecting them one by one, and that they can reactiviated prematurely on command. Though I think this might be explained later on and why it hasn't been done before or since.

I don't think Daima is supposed to fit into Super. They changed how the Fusions work, for one thing. It's completely ignoring anything Super has lined up with the only sorta reference being that they still say the DB World is in Universe 7.

I think the Dragonballs being summoned and reactivated at will is something only that particular Namekian can do, so it doesn't really retcon anything.

[CyberCubed]

Changing how the dragonballs work is a huge sin in my eyes. Just like Frieza being told by Beerus to blow up planet Vegeta. It's just a dumb idea that just wasn't necessary. Not only that, but it devalues already established continuity. I hate how much was retconned.

Beerus suggested it, he didn't tell him to do it.

And the Dragon Balls haven't been changed, there's a new character introduced who is able to do things with them Dende and the others didn't know about. Every new DBZ saga did something new the previous ones didn't. The time chamber in Kami's lookout literally came out of nowhere in the Cell saga when we never see it in Dragon Ball.

[Coola Yagami]

cause I prefer the English Dub. It's what I grew up with when I watched DBZ on TV back in the day.

Also I don't care for the "Granny Goku" voice that the sub uses.

Dragonball anything and Cowboy Bebop are the only two anime's I go English for

I guess, even though 'granny goku' is the real Goku. That 'superhero-ish' voice Schemmel does just never worked for me and something in his delivery always made Goku sound more stupid than naive. But I get it. A lot of people grew up on the dub.

[neatoman]

I don't think Daima is supposed to fit into Super. They changed how the Fusions work, for one thing. It's completely ignoring anything Super has lined up with the only sorta reference being that they still say the DB World is in Universe 7.

I think the Dragonballs being summoned and reactivated at will is something only that particular Namekian can do, so it doesn't really retcon anything.

I doubt it's intended to be independent from Super, not writing that off completely but I don't see why they would do that. So far it's just the Kaioshin having undone his fusion too early that is a problem, which I think was more Toriyama forgetting when it was supposed to happen rather than an intentional contradiction, unless there is a gag towards the end that causes them to reunite which would be something he'd do. And the fusion thing isn't so much a retcon, Vegito unfused within Boo and the stuff about non-Kaioshin not being to correctly use the ear rings is just something Gowasu said without more context, both can easily be true.

I don't really see why the plot and world building of Super would be ignored, especially considering Toriyama came up with most of it. And it's a little more than just stating the main universe is number seven, for example, the names Degesu and Arinsu are references to Zamasu and Gowasu. Then the stuff about the Namekians being from another realm is something that was stated in the Super manga. Obviously they don't go into much detail here but the show clearly takes place before Super does, so that's not really possible. How would they even be able to reference Beerus, God Saiyan, Blue Saiyan, Gold Freeza, Zamasu, Universe 6, Ultra Instinct, Moro, the Angels, Planet Cereal and the secret continued Red Ribbon if they straight up don't know about that stuff yet?

[CyberCubed]

I watched all of Super subbed when it came out and got used to the Japanese voices immediately despite never seeing DBZ subbed. And keep in mind Nozawa is much older when she recorded Super than in the 80's and 90's.

[Cowabung-Gal]

I personally think that Daima is actually a retcon of GT (which in my humble opinion is garbage) and it takes place between Z and Super. If GT was canon (which it isn’t) then would Goku need to be turned into a kid twice?

One person made a good point on YouTube. There are basically three universes/timelines:

1. Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z (Toriyama’s original manga)
2. Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z + movies, and Dragon Ball GT (the movies exist within GT)
3. Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z without the 10 year peaceful time skip, and Dragon Ball Super

Yeah, I know. The multiverse jazz. :roll:

I mean it’s pretty obvious at this point that Super kinda retcons the original End of Z (after the 10 years of peace), which I think is actually a good thing. I mean, let’s face it, it’s a crummy way to end the Dragon Ball series. At least Super paves the way for more possibilities, like Gohan potentially surpassing Goku.

[neatoman]

Dragon ball is not getting a manga remake. Unlike Ranma/Sailor Moon/Magic Knight Rayearth/FMA; the Db/Z anime is very faithful if you remove the filler and they already did that with Kai.
If we get a remake it'll be a CG one that is nothing like the manga and takes more liberties. Like saint seiya another anime that was already faithful to the manga.

Unfortunately, that's not entirely true. While there are virtually no major liberties taken with the existing scenes, the biggest one is almost certainly changing the incident where Videl tricks Gohan into revealing he's the great Saiyaman from chasing a pair of crooks to some elaborate nonsense about a circus poaching a baby pteranodon, it still does a lot to drag out the story as much as possible. Kai did not remove all the filler because such a thing is impossible, the aforementioned circus thing was kept because the only way of removing it would have been to animate the chase in its place, see also Bulma-Frog and Mr Satan's students.

A new adaptation would not only be better paced than Kai, it would actually be able to include the arcs before the Saiyans and do it all in fewer episodes too. Just because they didn't screw up and take the story in a bonkers direction that is incompatible with the manga, doesn't mean a new adaptation wouldn't be more faithful.

I personally think that Daima is actually a retcon of GT (which in my humble opinion is garbage) and it takes place between Z and Super. If GT was canon (which it isn’t) then would Goku need to be turned into a kid twice?

One person made a good point on YouTube. There are basically three universes/timelines:

1. Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z (Toriyama’s original manga)
2. Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z + movies, and Dragon Ball GT (the movies exist within GT)
3. Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z without the 10 year peaceful time skip, and Dragon Ball Super

Yeah, I know. The multiverse jazz. :roll:

I mean it’s pretty obvious at this point that Super kinda retcons the original End of Z (after the 10 years of peace), which I think is actually a good thing. I mean, let’s face it, it’s a crummy way to end the Dragon Ball series. At least Super paves the way for more possibilities, like Gohan potentially surpassing Goku.

Not sure I follow this. The only real conflict between Super and the end of the original manga is Bulma's comment on not having seen Goku for five years, beyond that it's pretty much compatible, regardless if you go with the Super anime or the Super manga.

GT does more or less works as a follow-up without Super or Daima but I don't really get that stuff with the movies, they don't even make much sense with each other or the shows. If we take those movies seriously, then Goku somehow lives long enough after recovering from the heart virus to go on two outer space adventures, still dies against Cell and somehow Vegeta and him don't come back until way after Majin Boo is defeated. And that's just the biggest question about those movies, pretty much all of them tend to show characters being alive when they're supposed to be dead or vice versa and show them doing things they shouldn't be able to or forget what they should be able to do, they're a real mess when it comes to timeline consistency.

[Mad Dog McMutt]

Beerus suggested it, he didn't tell him to do it.

This video says differently. I don't know how to post a youtube video, but I can send a link to it. https://youtu.be/qzrGMpBYYt0?feature=shared

[Cowabung-Gal]

Not sure I follow this. The only real conflict between Super and the end of the original manga is Bulma's comment on not having seen Goku for five years, beyond that it's pretty much compatible, regardless if you go with the Super anime or the Super manga.

Oh that’s not the only conflict.

1. In the original ending, Vegeta doesn’t know that Kid Buu was reborn and was shocked to learn this, but Goku tells him much earlier in Super (though to be fair, that happened in a filler)

2. How could they have had “10 years of peace” when they had to deal with Goku Black, a resurrected and now ridiculously powerful Frieza, Moro, and the revival of the Red Ribbon Army that has created a giant Cell? Goten and Trunks had become lazy by the End of Z because they didn’t do much fighting, but in the Super manga, they’re now fighting crime as the Saiyamen X.

3. Piccolo has achieved the new powerful Orange form and is on par with Goku and Vegeta, but at the End of Z he’s doesn’t want to participate in the Tournament and spar against them?

4. Vegeta declares at the end of the Kanzenban version of Z that he will one day defeat Goku. But in the Super manga and at the end of the movie Super Hero, Vegeta DOES finally defeat Goku and is just ecstatic over his victory.

5. Gohan is a laid back nerd by the End of Z, but in Super he realizes that he’s gotten soft from cutting back on his training and has just achieved the Beast Form.

6. After being called old by Goku and learning that Saiyans age slower than humans, Bulma angrily suggests using the Dragon Balls to wish herself younger at the End of Z, and yeah, she does look pretty old. In Super, she looks really good for her age, and the reason for that is because she’s been using the Dragon Balls to give herself a younger appearance for a while now.

7. With the introduction of Super Broly, wouldn’t Goku want him to participate in the Tournament too (as long as he could control his temper)?

8. With Beerus and Whis becoming a huge part in Vegeta and Goku’s life, wouldn’t they be watching the Tournament too?

There are so many conflicting details in Super that wouldn’t fit into the End of Z, which isn’t that good anyway and is rather unsatisfying, so I’ve got no complaints.

[Mad Dog McMutt]

^Wow, this girl knows her Dragonball.

[sdp]

Super is official fan fiction, Toriyama just did it because fans/toei kept asking for it but his true work was done and is the original story. It's not even consistent. The manga wasn't really done by Toriyama, it contradicts the "canon" anime. The "canon" movies contradict the adaptations in the episodes. Some stuff in the anime doesn't happen in the manga and vice-versa.
The original Dragon Ball manga has a beginning an end by Toriyama and it's all just called DB.

Dragon ball is not getting a manga remake. Unlike Ranma/Sailor Moon/Magic Knight Rayearth/FMA; the Db/Z anime is very faithful if you remove the filler and they already did that with Kai.
If we get a remake it'll be a CG one that is nothing like the manga and takes more liberties. Like saint seiya another anime that was already faithful to the manga.Unfortunately, that's not entirely true.

Didn't they animate some new scenes for Kai? Any reason to watch Kai over Z if I don't mind watching filler? I think it having a different OST than the iconic one is a big reason to skip Kai unless I'm missing something.



1. Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z (Toriyama’s original manga)
2. Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z + movies, and Dragon Ball GT (the movies exist within GT)
3. Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z without the 10 year peaceful time skip, and Dragon Ball Super

I mean it's a lot more complicated than that.
Super has movies that are contradicted by the Super anime so which one is canon?

The Dragon Ball/Z anime literally has an arc that references the Garlick movie. it's one of the easier ones to put in the timeline but still that sort of implies the movies are canon. GT IIRC has the villain movies appear in hell and are revived. The movies do contradict events in the anime so it's a hard fit.
Youa also have the retelling movies of Dragon Ball which would be a different timeline.

Unironically the best timeline was made by the video games. They incorporate the movies with the anime organically.


I'm glad they divided Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z in the anime. Kid Goku Dragon Ball is a different beast and far more entertaining as an adventure show. It does get a bit shonen towards the end but the Piccolo Jr. Fight is the best ending the series ever got. You had Goku finally winning the tournament, he was no longer a short kid and he was going to go get married.

Z is just fights and power ups, I like it for what it is but the magic and adventurous world of the original is all but gone. The dragon balls are just a plot point instead of the adventure. Goku being an alien kills the idea of who he was. We no longer see animal people. Piccolo is now an alien instead of a demon. I mean I like the saiyan arc, and the freeze arc is a nice ending to what the saiyan saga started. Android saga is interesting with all its plot twists and the return of the Red Ribbon Army. And while power ups got ridiculous with the Boo saga I liked that it became goofy as hell instead of serious. Z's ending is horrible. GT actually gave us a better ending than Z, and doubt Super will ever give us a better ending than GT did. It literally gave everyone closure.66++++-


------

I love seeing the Super **** seething over Daima and some pretending to like it. Fact is most Americans just don't like the original dragon ball because they grew up with DBZ unlike Asia, europe and the rest of the world.
You can tell Toriyama didn't like Super and just gave toei some ideas for them to develop like he used to for the DBZ movies. So when he decided to continue making something new for Dragon Ball that was more from him, he decided to set it before super so he could completely ignore all of that except for perhaps some idea he might've liked which he could reference. I love the early DB feels it gives me, it doesn't quite feel like original dragon ball but it's loads better than whatever Super was supposed to be.

[Mad Dog McMutt]

DBZ may have had it's fair share of continuity errors. Especially involving the timeline and the movies, but if we just look at just the show then I feel like for every mistake that they made they also made 100 brilliant ideas. I can't say the same for Super or GT. I thought GT was mediocre, but it was gold compared to Super. Super was almost nothing but bad ideas and concepts that don't really flow well. I hope that the new series proves me wrong, but I feel like they are gonna mess up this show as well.

[Cowabung-Gal]

^Wow, this girl knows her Dragonball.

Lol, I’m no Dragon Ball expert by any means. I’ve recently become a fan (well, I’ve been one since I was a kid but I’ve really gotten into it lately).

Super is official fan fiction, Toriyama just did it because fans/toei kept asking for it but his true work was done and is the original story.

Toriyama has always been controlled by the fans. He planned to end the Dragon Balls series much earlier during the young Goku years but nope, due to its growing popularity, he had to keep going. After Goku’s death in the Cell games, he wanted to focus more on Gohan and write silly light-hearted stories again, which is how we ended up with the campy Great Saiyaman. But nope, the fans wouldn’t have it. After years and years of constant demands and pressure, I think I know what finally did Toriyama in.

I get why people think that Super is a pale comparison to Z, and that’s true since nothing really beats the classics or the impact that those classics have had on generations. But it’s not that big of a deal if Super does retcon the End of Z. If you tried to tackle the continuity issues with the entire franchise, you’d probably end up with a migraine.

One argument against Super that I can’t stand is, “They made Goku dumb!” What, like Goku has always been the sharpest tool in the shed? He agreed to marry Chi-Chi because he thought that “bride” meant something to eat!

I’m still convinced that Daima takes place within the Super timeline because we get a cameo of Bardock in the outfit that he wore in the Super manga.

[Cowabung-Gal]

Z's ending is horrible. GT actually gave us a better ending than Z, and doubt Super will ever give us a better ending than GT did. It literally gave everyone closure.

End of Z is terrible, I agree.

GT giving everyone “closure”, though….

https://media1.tenor.com/m/Ebg-RF7fx_EAAAAC/vegeta-laugh.gif

[ZariusTwo]

The Buu Saga to me ought to be exclusively a prequel saga to the GT timeline. Z for me ended on Cell and I imagine a great deal of people think the same. It's also when Kai ended correct?

Super is just a mess, bad animation, too much slice of life, and sagas that rely entirely on your nostalgia of better sagas.

[neatoman]

Oh that’s not the only conflict.

1. In the original ending, Vegeta doesn’t know that Kid Buu was reborn and was shocked to learn this, but Goku tells him much earlier in Super (though to be fair, that happened in a filler)

2. How could they have had “10 years of peace” when they had to deal with Goku Black, a resurrected and now ridiculously powerful Frieza, Moro, and the revival of the Red Ribbon Army that has created a giant Cell? Goten and Trunks had become lazy by the End of Z because they didn’t do much fighting, but in the Super manga, they’re now fighting crime as the Saiyamen X.

3. Piccolo has achieved the new powerful Orange form and is on par with Goku and Vegeta, but at the End of Z he’s doesn’t want to participate in the Tournament and spar against them?

4. Vegeta declares at the end of the Kanzenban version of Z that he will one day defeat Goku. But in the Super manga and at the end of the movie Super Hero, Vegeta DOES finally defeat Goku and is just ecstatic over his victory.

5. Gohan is a laid back nerd by the End of Z, but in Super he realizes that he’s gotten soft from cutting back on his training and has just achieved the Beast Form.

6. After being called old by Goku and learning that Saiyans age slower than humans, Bulma angrily suggests using the Dragon Balls to wish herself younger at the End of Z, and yeah, she does look pretty old. In Super, she looks really good for her age, and the reason for that is because she’s been using the Dragon Balls to give herself a younger appearance for a while now.

7. With the introduction of Super Broly, wouldn’t Goku want him to participate in the Tournament too (as long as he could control his temper)?

8. With Beerus and Whis becoming a huge part in Vegeta and Goku’s life, wouldn’t they be watching the Tournament too?

There are so many conflicting details in Super that wouldn’t fit into the End of Z, which isn’t that good anyway and is rather unsatisfying, so I’ve got no complaints.

I had to go through the final chapters of the manga to be sure here. Notably I got one thing wrong, it's four years rather than five (or the translator got something wrong). Anyway, I can't see see any statement about there being ten years of uninterrupted peace, just that it's been ten years since the defeat of Majin Boo and that it's peaceful at that point. Then things like Vegeta not knowing about Oob does just seem to be Toei writers screwing up, I'm pretty sure he never finds out in the manga version. And yes, Vegeta does technically defeat Goku in both the movie and the manga but in a match where the rules were to not use any transformations or range attacks, so that may not have been entirely satisfying to him (and it's implied that Goku may have let him win)? As for Bulma, she did start to rely on cosmetics and only ever made wishes for minor alterations, it's not exactly difficult to see her starting to look closer to her actual age after a while. Broly is also somewhat lacking in control so bringing him to earth for a tournament with regular guys is an obviously bad idea.

Then the stuff about Gohan and Piccolo not participating in the tournament or Beerus not showing up seems a little forced. Gohan and Piccolo may simply just not want to under those circumstances and, while it's easy to forget given how much he shows up, Beerus is a character who considers sleeping for 50 years to be a nap and watching a bunch of normal humans get pushed around by Boo might not be entertaining enough.


Didn't they animate some new scenes for Kai? Any reason to watch Kai over Z if I don't mind watching filler? I think it having a different OST than the iconic one is a big reason to skip Kai unless I'm missing something.


In a technical sense they reanimated a few scenes because they couldn't be remastered that well, but that mostly amounts to tracing existing frames. As for any reason beyond the lack of filler, they do actually speed up the fight scenes interestingly enough.

[Anarchistguy]

The Buu Saga to me ought to be exclusively a prequel saga to the GT timeline. Z for me ended on Cell and I imagine a great deal of people think the same. It's also when Kai ended correct?

Super is just a mess, bad animation, too much slice of life, and sagas that rely entirely on your nostalgia of better sagas.

That's the problem with post-1996 Dragon Ball in general, not just Super.

When Toriyama was doing the original manga, he drew inspiration from things that he enjoyed at the time: 1970s Kung Fu movies, Sc-Fi movies, video games, etc. That's part of what made it so much fun

The modern stuff just creates their arcs by taking what's already been pre established and puts a new twist on it.

Dragon Ball absolutely SUCKS when it takes inspiration from Dragon Ball (I know what I said lol).
I guess, even though 'granny goku' is the real Goku. That 'superhero-ish' voice Schemmel does just never worked for me and something in his delivery always made Goku sound more stupid than naive. But I get it. A lot of people grew up on the dub.

Yeah I'm not a fan of "Champion of justice" Goku either lol. Yes the japanese voice is odd, but it fits his personality pretty well IMO.

[Cowabung-Gal]

Broly is also somewhat lacking in control so bringing him to earth for a tournament with regular guys is an obviously bad idea.

But it worked out so well for Vegeta last time, right?

[neatoman]

But it worked out so well for Vegeta last time, right?

There is a big difference between someone lacking self-control and a wizard alien showing up to make people as evil as possible.

[Cowabung-Gal]

There is a big difference between someone lacking self-control and a wizard alien showing up to make people as evil as possible.

Vegeta could’ve resisted Babidi’s influence, but he wanted to surpass Goku at all costs and gave in to the temptation. I’d say he had low self-control himself.

And yes, Vegeta does technically defeat Goku in both the movie and the manga but in a match where the rules were to not use any transformations or range attacks, so that may not have been entirely satisfying to him (and it's implied that Goku may have let him win)?

Goku letting Vegeta win? Sure, he will let that idiot Hercule “win”. But his longtime rival who inspires him to push past his limits and get even stronger? No way.

[Coola Yagami]

The funny thing about those unseen tournaments where we assume the fighters drop the fight against Satan, is that they have to make sure Vegeta never makes it to the finals. I just don't see Vegeta playing along and throwing the fight to Satan.

[CyberCubed]

What on earth are people talking about? The original 13 movies are meant to be non-canon side stories (besides maybe Garlic Jr. for the Garlic Jr. saga to make sense in the anime, just pretend Krillin is shocked again seeing Gohan). GT has always been non-canon (especially now that Super exists it can't fit in).

Daima and Super are the official continuation of DBZ. The last 3 eps with Uub are likely just going to have some slight alterations to the dialogue whenever they get brought back into the story but for the most part everything can be left as is.

And Vegeta saying "I'll surpass you someday" to Goku makes sense. Goku still has Ultra Instinct which is assumingly above wherever Vegeta is up to at that point.

[Cowabung-Gal]

Goku still has Ultra Instinct which is assumingly above wherever Vegeta is up to at that point.

Actually with Ultra Ego, Vegeta is pretty much on par with Goku now.

[Coola Yagami]

Actually with Ultra Ego, Vegeta is pretty much on par with Goku now.

And Black Freeza made them both his bitch.

[neatoman]

Vegeta could’ve resisted Babidi’s influence, but he wanted to surpass Goku at all costs and gave in to the temptation. I’d say he had low self-control himself.


The point is more so that Babidi was an unforeseen factor.

[Cowabung-Gal]

The point is more so that Babidi was an unforeseen factor.

There was also the time when Vegeta destroyed the Punching Machine, when he was supposed to suppress his strength like everyone else. :lol:

[CyberCubed]

And Black Freeza made them both his bitch.

Nobody cares about the manga. If those arcs ever get anime adapted they'll be completely different. Just look at how different the manga Tournament of Power is, the only thing that's the same is the climax.

[Cowabung-Gal]

Nobody cares about the manga.

Nobody?

The manga sold 500,000 copies in the US in 2022. I can only imagine how much the volume with Toriyama’s final contribution will sell, if it ever gets published that is.

[Coola Yagami]

Seems the crap dub will premiere on November 10. Guess their original worldwide premiere that was supposed to air in both Japan and US at the same time (or as close as one can give the huge time difference) fell through.

As for nobody caring about the manga, you know most American dub fans don't like to read manga or watch any anime that isn't known Adult Swim. DB is as casual and normie as it gets.

[CyberCubed]

Seems the crap dub .

?

The FUNI dubs have been good for over a decade now. We aren't in 1998 anymore where episodes are cut/censored and have the music changed with mediocre voice acting. This isn't 25 years ago.

[Coola Yagami]

?

The FUNI dubs have been good for over a decade now. We aren't in 1998 anymore where episodes are cut/censored and have the music changed with mediocre voice acting. This isn't 25 years ago.

Still too many Americanisms for my taste. Part of the problem is DB is still considered a kids property so they can't be bothered, while other anime like FMA and Death Note (yes I know Funi didn't do Death Note but just an example) are treated much more seriously and dubbed better. Like I get that technically DB is a kids property and it's silly at times, but when it's serious let it be serious. The kids in Japan didn't need a bunch of references and dated jokes to follow the story and characters.

While we're still way better than 1998, DB still still has a ways to go when you compare how other anime are dubbed more seriously. Vegeta calling Goku a clown for example, which has become a bit a dub running gag but was never in the original anime.

Like the recent DBZ Sparking Zero had Kid Trunks say 'no cap' which wouldn't happen if it was a Jujutsu Kaizen game or some other anime that's taken more seriously.

[CyberCubed]

Still too many Americanisms for my taste. Part of the problem is DB is still considered a kids property so they can't be bothered, while other anime like FMA and Death Note (yes I know Funi didn't do Death Note but just an example) are treated much more seriously and dubbed better. Like I get that technically DB is a kids property and it's silly at times, but when it's serious let it be serious. The kids in Japan didn't need a bunch of references and dated jokes to follow the story and characters.

While we're still way better than 1998, DB still still has a ways to go when you compare how other anime are dubbed more seriously. Vegeta calling Goku a clown for example, which has become a bit a dub running gag but was never in the original anime.

Like the recent DBZ Sparking Zero had Kid Trunks say 'no cap' which wouldn't happen if it was a Jujutsu Kaizen game or some other anime that's taken more seriously.

There's a few minor alterations sure, but otherwise the scripts since Kai have been much better than before. This isn't late 90's or early 2000's FUNimation. Kai, Super, the games, and Daima all have good dubs.

It is true some of the name translations like "Master Roshi" and "Tien" have stuck around, but it's too late to change them now. At least Hercule is now called Mr. Satan all the time in the dub unlike before.

[neatoman]

This was a silly change.
zaLoTA6yICc
All he did was laugh, why even bother with this?

[CyberCubed]

Because it was 1999. The anijme landscape was completely different in the west back then. They flat out said they tried to inject more jokes into the show and put their own spin on things. Back then animes were "adaptions" instead of being faithful. Look at Sailor Moon, Pokemon, etc. and all other 90's anime dubs. They basically turned the Japanese version into a completely different product.

[neatoman]

Now we have the opening and ending.
/poQlNeb7a-U?si=HNH_VZkzQsDFtL7l
rbbA5ILUE5k?si=IdlsR0ppC75zO2tG

And the second episode is also out. Apparently the next couple of episodes will be about Goku and the Kaioshin tagging along with a new character named Glorio, with the rest joining later.
Right, so the new information we have here is:

Not everyone with pointy ears are from the demon realm but most can be assumed to be, so I guess Pilaf is off the table of potential demons.
Shenlong apparently only grants more than one wish if he knows the summoner from before, otherwise it's just one wish.
Namekians originally had a decent planet in the demon realm but left due to not liking the management.
The reason the demon realm has limited access to the outside world is because too many left.
Dende has been moved to the demon realm by Degesu and Gomah, which will apparently prevent the earth Dragon Balls from being restored.
The Kaioshin arrived in Universe 7 in a spaceship, not sure why he needed one but it's necessary to get into the demon realm.
Piccolo does more or less seem to think of himself as the nameless Namekian, in case that wasn't obvious.
Neva deliberately stayed behind to protect the demon realm Dragon Balls.
Glorio was allegedly sent by the king of the demon realm's third planet, who seemingly is not the same person as Gomah, but Kaioshin doubts Glorio's story.
Mr. Popo has horns, he's not human. We knew he wasn't human, but some people seem to think he is and this confirms that he is not.

[Coola Yagami]

At least the ending theme shows that Bulma, Vegeta and Piccolo will be coming along for the trip later on, so it's promising that it's not gonna be just the Goku show this time around. Vegeta is a given, but hopefully they can remember that Piccolo was Akira's favorite and he gets some decent scenes too.

[neatoman]

At least the ending theme shows that Bulma, Vegeta and Piccolo will be coming along for the trip later on, so it's promising that it's not gonna be just the Goku show this time around. Vegeta is a given, but hopefully they can remember that Piccolo was Akira's favorite and he gets some decent scenes too.

I think it's more of a question about whether Toriyama himself remembered Piccolo was his favourite, considering he wrote the plot of this show. And considering the revelation about the Namekians we already have here, not to mention Piccolo's prominence in the last movie, I'd say it's fair to assume he'll have a larger role.

Interesting thing to note, Toriyama was apparently dissatisfied with almost every character expression drawn by Toyotaro in the last page of the manga before the current hiatus, so that final page is basically all drawn by Toriyama, and wouldn't you know it, the focus is of Piccolo waving goodbye. The last manga page he (was confirmed to have) drawn was mainly of Piccolo.

Anyway, what qualifies as having had a hand in defeating Boo? If the wish is to be believed then Maron did too as she turned into a baby, which is strange considering how little she did, Chi-Chi at least slapped Boo. And let's also remember here that most of the people turned into children here didn't really do much, they just kinda hung out at the lookout until Boo burst out of the room of spirit and time to turn them into candy.

The ones who actively fought Boo were:

Goku
Vegeta
Goten
Trunks
Gotenks (if you want to count him as his own character)
Vegito (ditto)
Piccolo (if you count that volleyball assistance)
Gohan
Good Boo
Dabra
Kaioshin (as feeble as it may have been)
Tenshinhan


The ones who had a role somehow but didn't directly fight Boo were:

Everyone who contributed ki.
Mr. Satan, as he played a role in creating Good Boo and gathering the ki.
Baba, as she brought Vegeta to earth for that purpose.
Enma, for preventing Vegeta from reincarnating.
Kuririn, in helping with Goten and Trunks' training.
Old Kaioshin, in helping Gohan's training.
Kibito, in allowing for better teleportation.
Dende, in aiding with the Dragon Balls on Namek.
The other Namekians in lending the Dragon Balls.
Popo, in saving Dende.
Videl, in being the cause Boo was even willing to wait for Goten and Trunks.
Chi-Chi slapped Boo.


These lists mostly align but raises a few questions. The most characters like Yamcha really did was help collect the Dragon Balls to revive everyone killed at the Tournament, which does revive Kibito and that was important if a bit indirect. And course, all Earthlings helped with the Genki Dama and the Namekians collected their Dragon Balls, so... Yeah...

[CyberCubed]

I'm sure he just meant "Goku's friends" with is vague. Tien/Chiaotzu and Yajirobe should be kids too but we didn't see them, let alone Gohan and Videl. Hell even Bulma's parents could count under this and we didn't see them either.

Overall though I doubt we'll see any of them besides maybe Gohan later so I guess it doesn't really matter. An interesting thing is neither Korin nor the Turtle were regressed in age, although you probably couldn't tell. Maybe Baba wasn't affected either but she might not even show up.

[Coola Yagami]

The wish specifically says to turn people involved in the fight against Majin Buu 'and their friends' into children. So that includes Roshi, Gyu Mao and Chichi.

[CyberCubed]

The wish specifically says to turn people involved in the fight against Majin Buu 'and their friends' into children. So that includes Roshi, Gyu Mao and Chichi.

So by that logic Tien should be affected as he actually fights Super Buu. And if people like Ox King or Oolong got turned into kids when they did nothing but get eaten by Super Buu on Kami's lookout, then naturally everyone besides maybe Yajirobe or Bulma's parents should be changed.

[Coola Yagami]

So by that logic Tien should be affected as he actually fights Super Buu. And if people like Ox King or Oolong got turned into kids when they did nothing but get eaten by Super Buu on Kami's lookout, then naturally everyone besides maybe Yajirobe or Bulma's parents should be changed.

For all we know, maybe they did too.

[Coola Yagami]

So by that logic Tien should be affected as he actually fights Super Buu. And if people like Ox King or Oolong got turned into kids when they did nothing but get eaten by Super Buu on Kami's lookout, then naturally everyone besides maybe Yajirobe or Bulma's parents should be changed.

For all we know, maybe they did too. So far they only showed the people at the party. They didn't even bother to cut away to Gohan and Videl when they should be affected too.

[Cowabung-Gal]

bMMg3Pf7J3I

“Just be glad we’re not doing Dragon Ball GT” :lol:

[neatoman]

Alright, I don't know much this qualifies as a retcon, considering it only contradicts the guidebooks and those are notoriously weird, but we did get a new origin for the Kaioshin.

According the guidebooks, the Kaios and Kaioshins are "Shinjin" which are metamorphosed from fruit growing on planet "Kaishin", with the evil ones being cast into the demon realm. According the latest episode however, the Kaioshin is part of a race called the "Glind" and came from the second world of the demon realm

[Coola Yagami]

Pretty chill third episode. World building, lore exploring, and Goku getting used to his smaller body.

[CyberCubed]

Given this series is assumed to be only 20-26 episodes, a standard season length, I'm guessing a lot of the action will be in the later portion of the series.

[Coola Yagami]

Given this series is assumed to be only 20-26 episodes, a standard season length, I'm guessing a lot of the action will be in the later portion of the series.

I'm thinking more traditional martial arts and bojitsu when it's just Goku... then turning Super Saiyan and energy blasts whenever Vegeta and Piccolo join them.

[CyberCubed]

It's really dumb Krillin isn't apart of this, seeing kid Goku and Krillin together would bring back the DB nostalgia. Granted maybe there might be a subplot on Earth for the rest of the cast, it'd be weird if they made these kid/chibi designs for everyone and they just get like 2 eps of screentime.

[Coola Yagami]

It's really dumb Krillin isn't apart of this, seeing kid Goku and Krillin together would bring back the DB nostalgia. Granted maybe there might be a subplot on Earth for the rest of the cast, it'd be weird if they made these kid/chibi designs for everyone and they just get like 2 eps of screentime.

That is what I'm hoping for. Some sort of Earth subplot.

[neatoman]

So there's definitely going to be a new type of fusion down the line, what with those bugs.

[CyberCubed]

I see some complaints online these eps are getting a bit "slow" and too lore heavy, but I actually like it. This isn't DBZ or Super and it's more like early Dragon Ball (or even GT), so I do not expect big fights at all until maybe the end of the show. I do think the plot has to move on a bit and I hope it's not just Goku exploring more towns without anything bigger happening.

My guess is the first 10-13 eps will be Goku and his group alone, then the last 13ish will be when Vegeta/Piccolo/Bulma join them. They'll probably want to focus on Glorio and Pansy more before other characters come.

[neatoman]

I know the outlines he wrote for the Zamasu arc and the second Tournament must be really vague, given how radically different the manga and anime versions of those stories are, but there's clearly more there than just supplying base ideas. Obviously huge portions of the TV show version were just made up by Toei's staff, it's really doubtful that aliens challenging Satan, goo clone Vegeta, Goku ordering a hit on himself and Gohan shooting a Saiyaman movie came from him but we still know that the core of the Beerus, Gold Freeza, Tournament with U6, Zamasu and Tournament of Power arcs came from him.

[CyberCubed]

His only real outlines for the TOP was "Goku goes Ultra Instinct at some point" and the ending with Goku/Freeza beating Jiren with Android 17 left in the ring.

The fact that even the Kefla fight is completely different between anime to manga proves Toriyama didn't even have any plans for them. The anime did it much better since Goku vs. the two girls is one of the best fights from the tournament overall. And everything else was likely just made up on the fly, besides maybe Vegeta against Toppo, etc.

It's honestly a shame. Toriyama should have had clear outlines for all the main characters and who they fight so it would be consistent, but it's clear looking at what the anime and manga did that it was all left up in the air for the writers to do whatever they wanted as long as the climax was the same.

[Coola Yagami]

I love seeing the Super **** seething over Daima and some pretending to like it. Fact is most Americans just don't like the original dragon ball because they grew up with DBZ unlike Asia, europe and the rest of the world.
You can tell Toriyama didn't like Super and just gave toei some ideas for them to develop like he used to for the DBZ movies. So when he decided to continue making something new for Dragon Ball that was more from him, he decided to set it before super so he could completely ignore all of that except for perhaps some idea he might've liked which he could reference. I love the early DB feels it gives me, it doesn't quite feel like original dragon ball but it's loads better than whatever Super was supposed to be.

The only 'Super' reference was that it was mentioned that Goku and the crew live in the 7th universe, which the concept of different universes didn't exist til Battle of Gods/Super.

As for the 'slow' pace, you can tell these are fake fans. They are entering a whole new world, so lore and world building is important. Even DBZ didn't just jump straight to the action. The Freeza saga had a lot of Gohan and Krillin running around and avoiding fights before we'd have Goku fight Freeza. Likewise, there was a lot of 'trying to locate the Androids', 'chasing Gero to his lab' and 'going through empty towns to find Cell' and whatnot before we got to the actual Cell Games.

I'm assuming by the time Goku gets to the Tamagamas, he'll be fully used to his smaller body and the heavy air in the demon realm and we'll see more of the more fast-paced warp all over the place, ki blast spamming DBZ style fighting. I do like the combination of Goku not being synched with his smaller self as well as the heavier air forcing him to rely more on his martial arts skills.

[neatoman]

So while it's pretty obvious that Goku and friends will restore their ages by the end to preserve continuity, the question is how far down the line will it be? Are they going to remain children until the final episode or will it be like halfway through?

[CyberCubed]

Goku will obviously stay a kid till the final ep. Also in-universe this whole adventure probably doesn't take more than a month, tops. 10 days passed already from the wish before Goku went to the demon realm, I doubt this whole thing is more than a month. So everything fits into the timeline.

The Beerus movie if I remember right was 5 years after the end of the Buu saga, as Gohan and Videl are married and out of high school.

[neatoman]

Goku will obviously stay a kid till the final ep. Also in-universe this whole adventure probably doesn't take more than a month, tops. 10 days passed already from the wish before Goku went to the demon realm, I doubt this whole thing is more than a month. So everything fits into the timeline.

The Beerus movie if I remember right was 5 years after the end of the Buu saga, as Gohan and Videl are married and out of high school.

It might have been the intention for the Beerus story to take right in the middle of the time skip but Super does seem to change that in both the TV show and manga version. The show says that it has been six months since the defeat of Majin Boo so they could wish for earth to forget about him, and then "months" after that. The manga version doesn't even definitely state that it's been a while since Majin Boo has been forgotten, so it's technically possible that hadn't happened yet there.

Technically though, the six months thing is one of Toriyama's errors. When the Dragon Balls were used to bring everyone Vegeta killed, Dende said it would take four months for the Dragon Balls to be restored, it's only Goku who says it needs to be six months later on. If we assume it's four months rather than six and that it's always four months since each time only one wish is granted, then we can make a timeline like this:


Four months after Majin Boo is defeated, the memories are wiped (four months since Majin Boo was defeated).
Four months after that, Bulma gathers the Dragon Balls for the bingo tournament and Goku uses them to find out about God (eight months since Majin Boo was defeated).
Four months again and Sorbet wishes for Freeza to return and Pilaf for some money, this would probably reset the waiting time to a year (one year exactly since Majin Boo was defeated).
Four months pass and Freeza returns to Earth where he is killed again (one year and four months).
Let's assume one month later when Champa shows up to challenge Beerus to keep the counting simple (one year and five months).
The whole Zamasu thing can be assumed to happen in a fairly short period of time and his Dragon Ball wish does not count due to time travel, let's round it up to one month again (one year and six months).
The Super Dragon Balls were used once again at the end of the Tournament and let's not discount the time we assume the Zamasu arc too place in to allow for them to be gathered again (two years and six months).
The Broly movie has to take place at least one year after Sorbet and Pilaf used the Dragon Balls and luckily the Earth Dragon Balls were never explicitly used after that, so let's just assume one more month after the Tournament (two years and seven months).
The Moro arc is really vague about the passage of time but let's just assume four months since the Namekian Dragon Balls are used twice (three years and one month).
The Granolah arc is really vague and has multiple tiny time skips but let's assume five months since the end of Moro to the end of Granolah (three years and six months).


Keep in mind that this would be the minimum amount of time rounded up, with the time since Majin Boo's defeat being discounted here, it would still be three years and two months. This can still technically all happen within the last five years of the original timeskip before the ending, but it's still a bit tight.

[Coola Yagami]

It's just weird cause that's an awful lot of 'sagas' to happen to them in the 5 or so years between Buu and Uub.

[neatoman]

It's just weird cause that's an awful lot of 'sagas' to happen to them in the 5 or so years between Buu and Uub.

Well, it's kind of easy to forget due to how many time skips there are in the series, but most of the arcs are fairly short from an in-universe perspective. Here is another list to put this into perspective:


The exact amount of time it took to initially collect the Dragon Balls is unknown but had to happen within 30 days.
The first tournament took about a single day.
The entire Red Ribbon arc takes place during the course of about one week.
The second tournament takes place in a single day (yes, I know the anime extended it but that's not what counts).
The Piccolo arc starts the same day and ends the day after that.
The third Tournament also takes place in about a single day.
Raditz showing up and his comrades showing up a year later also collectively takes a day or so.
The interlude between the defeat of Vegeta and the month long trip to Namek is about a week too.
Namek itself is about a week based on the time it took Goku to get there.
The bit about Trunks killing Freeza and explaining what will happen takes less than a day too.
From the Gero's attack to Goku stepping out of the room of spirit and time, it takes about three days.
The Cell games themselves are held in a single day.
The high school thing lasted three days.
The entire Majin Boo thing is about two days.


Discounting time skips and montages, this means we see about two months total of the characters' lives. And even this pretends we saw all of the 30 days the Pilaf arc could have taken place during, we only actually see about five days there if Bulma changes clothes once per day unless forced to wear only one outfit, so it's really more like five days in that case. So one month and a week.

[CyberCubed]

Today's ep confirmed the lore from the guidebooks that Supreme Kai and all the Kai's are born from trees, and they don't have real genders. This explains why so many Kai's exist, and that most of them if born from the same tree are related. I wonder if this means for the lower Kai's like King Kai and the other 3 as well.

The bull guy in this ep was funny, typical Toriyama gag. We see kid Goku Super Saiyan properly fight for the first time although brief.

[neatoman]

I'm a bit curious about his claims that he is "something like that" when Goku calls him a god and Panzy asks if that's really true. Zamasu obviously didn't really mind calling himself a god and Super makes it pretty clear that holding the title of Kaioshin makes you a god. Is he just being humble?

I also wonder about the Glind exodus. Where exactly did they go and did they take the trees with them?

[CyberCubed]

Now that we know the Kai's are just mortal beings or from the demon realm, a God is really just a title in the Dragon Ball universe. There's really nothing special about the Glinds or Kai's, they just come from the demon realm and were scouted to become guardians of the universe. And we see from Elder Kai or King Kai, they can die. They just live a really long time.

It's really only Zeno and the Angels that appear to be the true Gods of the universe. As far as we know they probably can't die.

[neatoman]

Maybe they're just a species that have been selected to fill the role of gods, but given that all Kaioshin appear to be Glind, surely they must have some special property to uniformly be given this position above all others?

[neatoman]

There is another question to be had here as well.

At first I figured that the Glind left the demon realm to serve the role of Kaioshins, but that obviously can't be the case. The tradition of there being a Kaioshin stretches back to the Old Kaioshin who Shin did not recognise, and Shin describes growing up in the demon realm before their race left. So did they leave to continue the tradition?

[Coola Yagami]

I'm sure in the sense of deities, people like Kami, Kaioh and Kaioshin are all so supposed to be far beyond regular humans that for all intents and purposes, they are gods.

I mean, it's almost a plot hole that mortals like the Saiyans can even achieve forms that can rival literal gods. But I mean... the main characters are Saiyan and this type of show requires them to be the strongest guys in the room, even when gods are in the room... so there's that....

[CyberCubed]

I forgot how many generations back Elder Kai was from, but he has to be from a long time ago given it pre-dates Majin Buu killing the other 3 Supreme Kai's and Grand Supreme Kai while only our Shin survived. So maybe the trees stay in the demon realm, but the Kai's constantly come back to bring the new babies born into the Otherworld to grow up and train to eventually take over.

An interesting that about the opening is Dabura's father is shown next to him in that one scene, so I do think we'll also get some backstory/flashbacks of Dabura and his father at some point. They didn't make that design for his father for no reason. Would love to see some flashbacks of Dabura's rule and how Babidi eventually came and took control of him.

[neatoman]

I forgot how many generations back Elder Kai was from, but he has to be from a long time ago given it pre-dates Majin Buu killing the other 3 Supreme Kai's and Grand Supreme Kai while only our Shin survived. So maybe the trees stay in the demon realm, but the Kai's constantly come back to bring the new babies born into the Otherworld to grow up and train to eventually take over.

An interesting that about the opening is Dabura's father is shown next to him in that one scene, so I do think we'll also get some backstory/flashbacks of Dabura and his father at some point. They didn't make that design for his father for no reason. Would love to see some flashbacks of Dabura's rule and how Babidi eventually came and took control of him.

15 generations, so he was the Kaioshin of Universe 7 an extremely long time before Shin was given this title. And they can't really return, the current rules makes that difficult, as it's implied nobody is allowed to permanently leave the Demon Realm. We do see that there are floating islands and small planets in the demon realm, so it's possible that the whole planet with the trees was moved to somewhere else but the question is where. The space occupied by Zeno, maybe?

[Coola Yagami]

The space occupied by Zeno, maybe?

Assuming Zeno exists in this new continuity.

[neatoman]

Assuming Zeno exists in this new continuity.

Well, it's really just one suggestion, it's not like the question of "where did the race as a whole go?" is really dependant on the idea that they went to his place specifically. But no, I don't think he's being disregarded. The only continuity problem so far is the fusion being undone before Beerus shows up (which could very easily be explained the same way Toyotaro reconciled the two different types of Yardratians or why Future Mai was also young) and it's not like the characters are going to be talking about information they don't have yet.

[neatoman]

So turns out that Majin Boo was not the creation of Bibidi or something that existed in the ancient past before him, but rather the creation of this legless witch who just let everyone believe Bibidi did it to keep others off her back.

[Coola Yagami]

So turns out that Majin Boo was not the creation of Bibidi or something that existed in the ancient past beforefore, but rather the creation of this legless witch who just let everyone believe Bibidi did it to keep others off her back.

And to make it worse... they want to create a more controllable Majin Buu....

[CyberCubed]

I think it's very interesting Majin Buu was a creation of the Demon Realm rather than being just some ancient creature Bibidi came after (which honestly makes no real sense in the original story).

I do suspect we'll get a full lore episodes of Bibidi, Babidi and Dabura eventually. The opening literally shows Dabura's father next to him, they didn't make a design for Dabura's father just for the opening and not to do anything with it. So I expect a full flashback showing how Babidi came to take over Dabura and the original creations of Buu.

Also it's interesting then that Kid Buu followed the Glinds to the Otherworld since that's where he kills the other Supreme Kai's. I guess Bibidi dies around this point as Buu probably killed him.

On another note the fight with Goku and the first Dragon Ball robot was really good. Really nice animation and I'm glad the fight was only around 5 minutes long and not the entire episode. If this was DBZ you know that fight would have been the whole episode and maybe even half of the next one. Thank god they don't have to stretch things out anymore.

[Coola Yagami]

I think it's very interesting Majin Buu was a creation of the Demon Realm rather than being just some ancient creature Bibidi came after (which honestly makes no real sense in the original story).

I do suspect we'll get a full lore episodes of Bibidi, Babidi and Dabura eventually. The opening literally shows Dabura's father next to him, they didn't make a design for Dabura's father just for the opening and not to do anything with it. So I expect a full flashback showing how Babidi came to take over Dabura and the original creations of Buu.

Also it's interesting then that Kid Buu followed the Glinds to the Otherworld since that's where he kills the other Supreme Kai's. I guess Bibidi dies around this point as Buu probably killed him.

On another note the fight with Goku and the first Dragon Ball robot was really good. Really nice animation and I'm glad the fight was only around 5 minutes long and not the entire episode. If this was DBZ you know that fight would have been the whole episode and maybe even half of the next one. Thank god they don't have to stretch things out anymore.

Ah no, you forgot some details there.

Bibidi was originally said to have created Majin Buu, not to have found him.

Kaohshin killed Bibidi one of the times that he sealed Buu in the ball. That's why Buu was trapped in the ball for centuries. They couldn't destroy it so they hid it on Earth. In fact one of Babidi's motives was to kill Kaioshin for revenge of him killing his father.

[neatoman]

Ah no, you forgot some details there.

Bibidi was originally said to have created Majin Buu, not to have found him.

Kaohshin killed Bibidi one of the times that he sealed Buu in the ball. That's why Buu was trapped in the ball for centuries. They couldn't destroy it so they hid it on Earth. In fact one of Babidi's motives was to kill Kaioshin for revenge of him killing his father.

In an interview, Toriyama claimed that Boo was something that existed before Bibidi came along and that nobody really created him. It's a similar scenario to the Shinjin thing, the original manga never claimed the Kaioshin came from a tree and the concept as shown in Daima is a bit different from what Toriyama claimed.

[Coola Yagami]

In an interview, Toriyama claimed that Boo was something that existed before Bibidi came along and that nobody really created him. It's a similar scenario to the Shinjin thing, the original manga never claimed the Kaioshin came from a tree and the concept as shown in Daima is a bit different from what Toriyama claimed.

That's either retconning or stuff Toriyama forgot and changed after the fact. I mean going by the manga and anime Buu saga (before this interview) it was stated that Bibidi created Buu.

I mean who knows, changing it now that this new character was the real creator of Buu and just said Bibidi did it was a way to take the interview into account/

[CyberCubed]

We're 8 eps in, and assuming this is just 20 eps (or at most 22-24?) we're almost halfway into the series. I have to say I'm really enjoying it so far, although I am concerned about the pacing given how much they have left to cover in so little time left. I guess it's hard to judge Daima overall until it ends obviously, since we still don't quite know how the rest of the story will play out.

Overall though it does seem like a fitting sendoff to Toriyama's legacy. You can tell he hard a lot of fun coming up with the concepts for this series and all the new lore. And Kid Goku has been a lot of fun surprisingly.

[neatoman]

Alright, so the latest episode had the various Kaioshin from Super show up when Shin explained how divine authority works, including Gowasu and those guys we saw during the tournaments. So yes, that part is at the very least preserved from Super. And it's also explained that the Glind trees died, which is why they all left.

The rest of the lore reveals are a bit odd though. Apparently, the Demon Realm is the original reality and a previous Demon King commissioned a guy named Rymus to create the multiverse. Rymus himself is... Allegedly still the supreme authority of the multiverse and may or may not be the same character as Zeno or at least related in some sense. It's a little hard to tell, his clothing has the same color scheme and his body type also seems to match quite well, it's just the face that looks so radically different that I'm really not sure. Rymus has a single light blue skin color, nostrils, pointy ears and red hair. Zeno of course has purple sides, no nose at all, tube ears and no hair. My guess is that Zeno is a reincarnation of Rymus and looks a bit different because of that but the relationship between them is not clear.

Oh and Saiyans are explicitly not from the demon realm, they and earthlings are stated to be a product of the multiverse itself. Just in case anyone thought they were because of the Oozaru having pointy ears.

[CyberCubed]

I think all the lore drops have been my favorite part of Daima. Toriyama fleshing out the world/universe more and more is exciting, it's a real shame this turned out to be his final work before he passed because you wonder where he was going with all this. We'd probably wind up learning the creation of life itself and the very first universe.

Oh and Majin Kuu turning out to be a joke character is brilliant, I thought his design was underwhelming the last episode but this proved he was never going to be the main villain. He was hilarious, I actually hope he doesn't get killed off or fused or whatever and they keep him as a errand/shopping boy like he said lol

[Coola Yagami]

I think all the lore drops have been my favorite part of Daima. Toriyama fleshing out the world/universe more and more is exciting, it's a real shame this turned out to be his final work before he passed because you wonder where he was going with all this. We'd probably wind up learning the creation of life itself and the very first universe.

Oh and Majin Kuu turning out to be a joke character is brilliant, I thought his design was underwhelming the last episode but this proved he was never going to be the main villain. He was hilarious, I actually hope he doesn't get killed off or fused or whatever and they keep him as a errand/shopping boy like he said lol

One thing I noticed about Majin Kuu is he didn't seem to show any Majin Buu traits. Might be because he's too much Saibaiman, but he never stretched himself, fire candy beams or had a chance to show that he can regenerate if he ever got dismembered or anything. It is noticable that can talk just fine unlike Kid Buu or the Saibaimans.

[neatoman]

Saw this image on 4chan alleging an announcement of the Super manga's return next year, take it with a grain of salt, if it's real then the announcement has to happen next week at Jump Festa so it's not like it can string anyone along if it's fake.
https://desu-usergeneratedcontent.xyz/a/image/1734/19/1734190048126.jpg

[Coola Yagami]

Saw this image on 4chan alleging an announcement of the Super manga's return next year, take it with a grain of salt, if it's real then the announcement has to happen next week at Jump Festa so it's not like it can string anyone along if it's fake.
https://desu-usergeneratedcontent.xyz/a/image/1734/19/1734190048126.jpg

What character is that? That's not Moro's hand or anyone we know right?

[neatoman]

What character is that? That's not Moro's hand or anyone we know right?

Like I said, take it with a grain of salt. I've only seen it in one place and it's a Dragon Ball thread on /a/ and those threads don't just come with the usual 4chan "take it with a grain of salt"... They're quite possibly the source of the least serious and most moronic """discussions""" of the Dragon Ball franchise you'll find on the internet.

But, no. Assuming that this is real, then it likely isn't Moro because he's dead and the hand does not seem to resemble any other character established in Super or the original manga. It kind of looks like it could be Janemba or some other character established in older material, but like with Broly and Gogeta, it would probably be treated like it's their "first" appearance if that is the case.

[Coola Yagami]

It's just so weird how the Manga worked out.

Pretty much it's Battle of Gods, Resurrection F, the Universe 6 tournament, the Goku Black arc, Tournament of Power, Broly, Moro, Granola, then the events of Super Hero.

It's like the Manga acknowledges all the anime events and movies even though we never got to see two entire sagas animated.

[CyberCubed]

The manga is just kind of a spinoff at this point, I don't think people acknowledge it as canon until the arcs are animated. The fact that the tournament of power plays out completely differently in the manga besides the climax means you can't even say the same thing happens between the anime and manga.

I think they might make movies for the Moro arc eventually, but I suspect the actual events will be changed to fit into a movie form.

[Coola Yagami]

Even so the events of Super Hero are canon to the Manga.

[CyberCubed]

I wonder why Toriyama got so obsessed with Gods and the creation of the universe since Dragon Ball's revival. Starting with Beerus and Whis, he constantly fleshed out different universes, all the different Gods and Angels, then the Grand Priest and Zeno, and now going even further with the Demon Realm, and now Rymus who is apparently THE GOD of everything.

Not to mention all the lore with the Nameks now being demons again before they left for outer space, Mr. Popo likely being a demon, the Saibamen being demons, etc.

It's like Toriyama became obsessed with the idea of creation and God.

[neatoman]

I wonder why Toriyama got so obsessed with Gods and the creation of the universe since Dragon Ball's revival. Starting with Beerus and Whis, he constantly fleshed out different universes, all the different Gods and Angels, then the Grand Priest and Zeno, and now going even further with the Demon Realm, and now Rymus who is apparently THE GOD of everything.

Not to mention all the lore with the Nameks now being demons again before they left for outer space, Mr. Popo likely being a demon, the Saibamen being demons, etc.

It's like Toriyama became obsessed with the idea of creation and God.

Because, ignoring the final few chapters that just existed to be an epilogue anyway, he left the series off with the highest gods in the universe being major players and the introduction of characters from something called the Demon Realm? It honestly never seemed like a big leap for me, it's kind of the next logical step after Majin Boo. If anything, bringing back Broly and the Red Ribbon Army along with a recreated Cell seems more jarring.

[CyberCubed]

Yeah, but as said this stuff should of happened in 2013-2014 right after Beerus was introduced with the revival...not in 2024 over 10 years later. Toriyama had 10 years to think about this stuff, surprised he didn't get around to fleshing out the demon realm, the rest of the gods, and origins of the universe till now.

It is funny Daima does feel like it could have happened way back in 1995 right after the Buu arc ended. Even Goku turning into a kid would have been seen as a fresh idea back then since GT obviously would not have happened if the manga still continued from Toriyama into 1996.

It makes me sad knowing Toriyama passed, it really makes you wonder where he would have taken the franchise from here. Now I worry Dragon Ball will go downhill again due to the other various writers not really knowing the franchise as well as he did. You look at stuff like Heroes/Xenoverse, GT and some of the Super manga and you can see where it can all easily go wrong again.

[neatoman]

Does anyone else have the same theory about Majin Duu? How his fight with the Tamagami will go down?
I think it will turn out that he is indeed strong enough to defeat the Tamagami, but like Goku he will have to pass a puzzle of sorts to actually get the Dragon Ball, which he will be far too stupid to solve and thus Majin Duu also turns out to be a failure for different reasons.

Also, it has been confirmed that there will be single chapter story of the manga coming in february. Which, well, at least that means the next volume can be released since that will even out the number of pages at least.

[CyberCubed]

I really like that Kuu and Duu are comic relief characters. I feared they would be taken seriously as villains and that's clearly not the case. I went from hating Kuu's design when he was revealed to finding him funny, wanting to have a brother and going shopping.

The stuff with Neva the old namek was interesting too, he thinks the Nameks will all return to the demon realm someday? Do the other Nameks now even know they're from the demon realm? They may have forgotten.

It does make you wonder who the main villain this series will even be at this point. I'm starting to get the feeling there's not going to be any final major fight with some super strong evil guy by the end. Most of the villains are comic relief so far.

[neatoman]

So I was kind of right about Duu, he couldn't solve the problem and needed Kuu's help, though instead of a cartoonishly easy test it was comically difficult to the point where it would have been impossible even for a normal genius.

[Coola Yagami]

Did you see that one pic Crunchyroll showed a week or so back? It showed all the Majins in the series. It showed Duu at least a week before he was revealed. And it looks like Arinsu will get an upgrade eventually.

[neatoman]

Did you see that one pic Crunchyroll showed a week or so back? It showed all the Majins in the series. It showed Duu at least a week before he was revealed. And it looks like Arinsu will get an upgrade eventually.

I've seen one dismissed as fake and I don't remember any claim about it being from Crunchyroll.

[CyberCubed]

SSJ3 Vegeta is both funny and kinda pointless when you realize it never appears in Super. Sometimes I think Daima would have been better if either Super never existed or Daima came out first, because knowing what comes after this in the timeline makes a lot of the events here feel like they'll be forgotten (since of course, none of it was written when Super happened so they can't reference anything from Daima).

I'm glad Gohan doesn't follow Goku/Vegeta in transformations, it'd be boring if they all went through the same power ups.

At this point there's only 8 episodes left, really curious how they'll wrap everything up. Either the last fights will be really rushed/minor or we're not going to get a big climatic battle.

[neatoman]

At this point there's only 8 episodes left, really curious how they'll wrap everything up. Either the last fights will be really rushed/minor or we're not going to get a big climatic battle.

Well, if you're used to the kind of pacing where Gohan and Cell wasted an entire episode on a beam struggle that started the previous episode and didn't end until the next, then I can see you thinking that. But really, eight episodes is about two hours and 40 minutes, if you think that's short in a normal sense I don't know what to say. All the Tamagamis have been defeated here, either Arinsu steals the two from Goku and friends or they get it from her, the Dragon Ball wish is clearly in sight here. How many episodes do you really need for a climactic battle? Three at most and that's a bit of a stretch.

[CyberCubed]

I think my other issue is now that the main cast has grown large, some of the new characters are underused. We still don't really know what Glorio's deal is after all this time. The two original villains have really done nothing but watch on their little monitor as Arinsu and her Buu's do everything.

Pansy and Bulma both being around at the same time feels redundant because they both fill the same role as the mechanic/inventor/genius on the group. And the other guy with the third eye, I wonder what he will do.

We know none of the new Daima characters appear after this, so I'm really hoping they all get proper screentime/focus in the last 8 episodes. Honestly it's part of the reason I sometimes wish Vegeta/Piccolo/Bulma didn't come with them, they're inevitably taking screentime away from the new characters.

[Coola Yagami]

I think my other issue is now that the main cast has grown large, some of the new characters are underused. We still don't really know what Glorio's deal is after all this time. The two original villains have really done nothing but watch on their little monitor as Arinsu and her Buu's do everything.

Pansy and Bulma both being around at the same time feels redundant because they both fill the same role as the mechanic/inventor/genius on the group. And the other guy with the third eye, I wonder what he will do.

We know none of the new Daima characters appear after this, so I'm really hoping they all get proper screentime/focus in the last 8 episodes. Honestly it's part of the reason I sometimes wish Vegeta/Piccolo/Bulma didn't come with them, they're inevitably taking screentime away from the new characters.

While I agree with the new characters, I'm glad Piccolo and Vegeta came along. GT never would have given Vegeta a solid win. Having the others come along make it less of the Goku show. And I mean, of the new characters the only fighter is Glorio.

[neatoman]

I think my other issue is now that the main cast has grown large, some of the new characters are underused. We still don't really know what Glorio's deal is after all this time. The two original villains have really done nothing but watch on their little monitor as Arinsu and her Buu's do everything.

Pansy and Bulma both being around at the same time feels redundant because they both fill the same role as the mechanic/inventor/genius on the group. And the other guy with the third eye, I wonder what he will do.

We know none of the new Daima characters appear after this, so I'm really hoping they all get proper screentime/focus in the last 8 episodes. Honestly it's part of the reason I sometimes wish Vegeta/Piccolo/Bulma didn't come with them, they're inevitably taking screentime away from the new characters.

Like I said, the remaining runtime is close to three hours, unless Glorio's backstory is overly complicated I doubt it'll eat up too much time.

[CyberCubed]

This is Dragon Ball though, even simple things like lore drops take half an episode. The preview to the next new episode looks like the gang just lost in the demon world against giant creatures, so it'll probably be filler-ish.

[Coola Yagami]

This is Dragon Ball though, even simple things like lore drops take half an episode. The preview to the next new episode looks like the gang just lost in the demon world against giant creatures, so it'll probably be filler-ish.

I don't know. With such a low episode count, there hasn't been any real filler since every episode has something that either explains more lore or furthers the story along.

As for Glorio's deal, we might not know the full story but we do know he's working with Arinsu lowkey. Plus now all three Dragonballs are into play.

To me filler would be an episode of Roshi trying to hit on women as a kid while Yamcha and Uulong try to keep him out of trouble or whatever.

[CyberCubed]

Speaking of that, it's so weird they made child designs for the whole rest of the main cast only for them to appear in that 1 episode. There's obviously no time for them to do anything, just in the last episode we'll see them briefly again as they're all turned back to adults.

I really liked Mr. Satan's kid design, and Roshi and Krillin looked good too. What a shame all those designs are pretty much wasted.

[neatoman]

Alright, so this episode gave us a visual depiction of how the demon realm worlds relate to each other. For a while I assumed they existed in different dimensions but it seems that they are in fact in layers, like an onion.

[CyberCubed]

The preview to the next episode showed Dabura, but it's likely a flashback. I'm glad for that though, I wanted to see some flashbacks of Dabura's reign.

[neatoman]

Alright, so turns out that that Hybus' belt buckle was the Third Eye that Gomah wanted to find... Yeah, I don't believe I'm spoiling anything there, you'd have to be pretty dense to assume that wasn't the case. Anyway, turns out the reason it went missing in the first place was because Dabra had a thief steal it to prevent Abra from using it thus allowing him to usurp the throne. The reason it wasn't recovered is because the thief got killed by a troll when hiding and Dabra didn't consider the eye necessary to use for himself.

Does anyone else think there is meant to imply a bit of dramatic irony? Him dismissing the power of the eye because he's confident in his power is ultimately what lead to his downfall? If it really is as powerful as Gomah claims, then with it he could have possibly defeated Boo and may even have resisted Babidi's control in the first place?

We also see some previous Demon Kings before Abra. One looks like he's the same race as Gomah but taller, another looks either like a Glind or an older Glorio, a third looks like the Demon King from Sand Land. Not sure what to make of that, maybe that Gomah is the son of a fallen Demon King and has been forced to make due with the smaller position, and that Glind might have held the position for a while? If one of them really is meant to look like an older Glorio, that would confirm a theory I had about him. And if one of them is indeed meant to look like the guy from Sand Land, it makes me wonder if Sand Land is meant to take place on U6 Earth or something, because the description of U6 Earth does resemble the setting of Sand Land.

As for some serious spoilers:
Yes, it does seem that Degesu indeed has his own agenda and isn't just Gomah's boot licker. He has gotten his hands on the eye (presumably by turning into a hot chick, unless that was just an agent of his) and didn't tell Gomah about it. He as seems to be getting tired of Gomah and is shown to hold Dende hostage in the preview. So he might very well be the true final boss of this show.

It also dawns on me that we still don't have any context for what that bird thing is that we see in the ending sequence. You'd think something that seems so significant as to warrant a shot in the ending and some feathers from it in the opening would be given some hints within the show itself but I can't think of any. There's only five episodes left and I can't give you any concrete idea of what that might be.
I think it might have something to do with the Angels based simply on other Dragon Ball material but since the Angels have jack to do with Daima so far, I really don't feel confident to say that is the case. Another thing is that it might have something do with Glorio, as his backstory is still a mystery, like he's meant to be an Angel in disguise or something? But that too is something I can't really say for certain.

[CyberCubed]

Daima's episode count is indeed confirmed to be 20 eps now, and with only 5 eps left I'm curious how they're going to wrap everything up. Especially since most of the last ep will probably just be an epilogue showing everyone turn back to their current ages and the goodbye to the demon realm characters.

I see a lot of complaints online about Goku/Vegeta not being able to dodge the laser beams and not stopping all the soldiers faster, but whatever, it is what it is.

[neatoman]

Daima's episode count is indeed confirmed to be 20 eps now, and with only 5 eps left I'm curious how they're going to wrap everything up. Especially since most of the last ep will probably just be an epilogue showing everyone turn back to their current ages and the goodbye to the demon realm characters.

I see a lot of complaints online about Goku/Vegeta not being able to dodge the laser beams and not stopping all the soldiers faster, but whatever, it is what it is.

I have this idea that maybe it'll look like the third eye really gives the final baddie a boost that the heroes can't overcome, but then the wish to restore everyone is made and suddenly it turns out that this thing really wasn't enough to defeat them after all. You know, kinda like Porunga giving Goku the last bit of strength needed to defeat Boo.

[Coola Yagami]

I see a lot of complaints online about Goku/Vegeta not being able to dodge the laser beams and not stopping all the soldiers faster, but whatever, it is what it is.

They're still not 100% used to their kid bodies. Plus even though it's easy to forget, they're still supposed to be weaker than normal, and also means slower.

Honestly stuff like this does raise the stakes for things that would normally not be much of a hindrance for the crew.

[CyberCubed]

It's weird we haven't seen Super Saiyan 3 kid Goku yet, given Vegeta transformed and we've seen it in GT. Makes me wonder if they're saving it for one of the final fights.

[neatoman]

At first I thought it was strange that Gomah transformed with the eye inserted when Abra didn't, but looking him again, I realise that without the eye he's clearly less muscular and more flabby.

[Coola Yagami]

I was surprised that one girl was actually a whole other person and not just Degesu in disguise.

[CyberCubed]

With only 4 eps left I imagine things might get rushed, they could have combined the last two episode into one. I also get the feeling the very last episode will just be an epilogue showing the main cast wished back to their normal ages and saying goodbye to the Demon realm characters...so there may actually only be 3 episodes left for the "story," depending how the final ep goes.

[Coola Yagami]

With only 4 eps left I imagine things might get rushed, they could have combined the last two episode into one. I also get the feeling the very last episode will just be an epilogue showing the main cast wished back to their normal ages and saying goodbye to the Demon realm characters...so there may actually only be 3 episodes left for the "story," depending how the final ep goes.

I'm surprised the 'fight' against the Majin Tokusentai was pretty much just a gag. I guess things really are rushed for the final 4 episodes.

So far the only fight that lasted more than episode was the Vegeta/Tamagami 2 and Majin Duu/Tamagami 1 fights that happened at the same time. I'm assuming the fight against Gomah might also be 2 episodes?

[CyberCubed]

Daima's fights are actually paced really well, they don't need to go on multiple eps. I'm more concerned about the resolution of the story. There's still a lot about Neva the old namek, Arisu, Gomah and the two Buu's not to mention Glorio's betrayal (?) that we don't really know what they'll do with all of them yet.

[LeotheLateBloomer]

I keep forgetting this show exists. What's the general consensus?

[CyberCubed]

I keep forgetting this show exists. What's the general consensus?

It's good. It's not perfect, but at only 20 episodes it doesn't wear itself out. The animation is MUCH better than all of Super as they took their time with it. It also fleshes out the demon realm that was first brought up in the Buu saga with Dabura.

Also with Akira Toriyama's death, this is very likely the last Dragon Ball project he worked on. So it has extra prestige by being the last thing from Toriyama.

[neatoman]

So how is Gomah going to be defeated?

[CyberCubed]

Glad to see Super Saiyan 3 Goku. They will probably use those fusion bugs and create a new fusion.

Would be funny if Duu and Kuu fuse instead of Goku and Vegeta like people are suspecting.

[Coola Yagami]

Daima takes place before either Super Saiyan 4 or Super Saiyan God, whichever poison you want to pick. It's awesome to see Super Saiyan 3 still be the most powerful and ultimate form. Daima is the last chance to make this transformation be treated with the awesomeness it deserved.

You can't do that with GT or Super, because they want to hurry to make Super Saiyan 3 obsolete so they can promote their next transformation.

[neatoman]

In the battle between Goku and Gomah, Neva decides to...

... Unlock Super Saiyan 4 in Goku. Now, it is a bit different in several regards. Goku wasn't required to already have a tail or transform into a giant monkey, nor does it force him into his adult form, but it's undeniably meant to be Super Saiyan 4 with its red fur and tail. It doesn't win the battle because Gomah had the power to become even bigger and force Goku out of his transformations, but he did have trouble before he chose to do it.

Also...
... Arinsu's plan was to have Glorio summon the Dragon as he knows Namekian and wish to become more powerful than Gomah. He does in fact summon the Dragon for her and makes a wish but we don't see the result.

Any ideas what it's going to be?
Next episode's title is "betrayal", which I assume is going to be Glorio betraying Arinsu by wishing for something else. Given that we don't see Gomah or any of the characters who were turned into children, my guess is one of these wishes:

Turn everyone back into adults.
Destroy the third eye.

[CyberCubed]

Oh man, they did it. And we thought SSJ3 Vegeta from a few eps back was a big deal.

[frank_one]

So.. does this make GT canonical now?

[CyberCubed]

No, it never was, and this means just the opposite.

[sdp]

Canon
Super babbies on suicide watch

[CyberCubed]

The red Porunga just flicking Gomah backwards in the air when he tried to attack him is one of the funniest moments of the series. I was worried Gomah would just stand there gawking at the dragon and not do anything, seeing him knocked the hell down was pretty funny.

Also Duu and Kuu are easily the best characters in the series. The Majin brothers are awesome, glad they are pretty much good guys now and will likely stay that way.

[neatoman]

So.. does this make GT canonical now?

It's like Broly and Gogeta in the Super Broly movie. They made their debut in previous movies but that one is treated like their first appearance, and quite frankly you'd just run into problems if you try to include those earlier movies in the official timeline anyway. Super Saiyan 4 may be from GT but that alone does not make GT canon, not anymore than Super Broly makes Fusion Reborn and the previous Broly movies canon.

Granted, it's a little different because this doesn't directly contradict GT (aside from all the other reasons GT doesn't make sense of course), but... Remember how people assumed the Bardock special was canon because that's where Bardock originated and then the manga included Freeza having a flashback of him? And then people got a bit miffed when Minus confirmed that what happened during Bardock's last days were completely different aside from Freeza's flashback? It's not like two panels of the manga ever confirmed that the whole thing was canon, nor does the mere existence of Super Saiyan 4 make GT canon.

I guess the simplest way of putting this is like this:
The movie Super Android 13 doesn't make a lick of sense canonically because Trunks and Kuririn must have destroyed 13, 14 and 15 already if they were housed in the basemat lab and Goku should still be sick (or at least in a semi-permanent state of Super Saiyan), but... We know 13, 14 and 15 must have existed canonically because 16 and the others after him do.

[Mad Dog McMutt]

Did Goku first turn into a giant golden ape or did they forget to include that part?

[Coola Yagami]

Did Goku first turn into a giant golden ape or did they forget to include that part?

No, but since this isn't really GT, it's not like they had to do that. Neva just gave Goku a power up.

Smaller details like Kaiohshin and Kibito aside, these new forms contradict Super since now it's a matter of why Vegeta never used SS3 in Super or Goku never used SS4 in Super.

The Daima guys said there wouldn't be any new transformations. I guess they can have their cake and eat it too cause they can say 'well technically... we have seen SS4 before....'

[neatoman]

Smaller details like Kaiohshin and Kibito aside, these new forms contradict Super since now it's a matter of why Vegeta never used SS3 in Super or Goku never used SS4 in Super.


Given that Neva gives him the magical power up and Neva is meant to be this insanely powerful wizard hardly anyone compares to, I'm under the assumption that the reason will just be that Neva himself is the only one who can draw that form out Goku and that Goku simply can't do it on his own.

[Coola Yagami]

Given that Neva gives him the magical power up and Neva is meant to be this insanely powerful wizard hardly anyone compares to, I'm under the assumption that the reason will just be that Neva himself is the only one who can draw that form out Goku and that Goku simply can't do it on his own.

That's what it looks like. All depends on wether or Goku transforms again on his own next episode.

We still had the matter of SS3 Vegeta. Vegeta would have definitely turned SS3 when Beerus smacked Bulma if he could.

[neatoman]

That's what it looks like. All depends on wether or Goku transforms again on his own next episode.

We still had the matter of SS3 Vegeta. Vegeta would have definitely turned SS3 when Beerus smacked Bulma if he could.

With that... It's a little more complicated but i think it's because he initially made no real attempt to fight him because he knew of horrifyingly powerful he was and when he struck Bulma, it was a heat of the moment thing. You know, SS3 has always seemed like a "you can only do it if you intend to do it" sort of thing, you might not be able to do it on instinct. Not that there is a canon explanation of course, I'm just pretty sure we've only ever seen it done with concentration, to me at least it seems like you can't do if you don't specifically try to do it.

Anyway, what bothers me more is the bird thing. What is the bird thing anyway? We see it in the ending sequence and hints of it in the opening, but the show is almost over and I still can't think of any hard clues for what it is in the show itself. So what is it?

[CyberCubed]

Goku doesn't have access to the transformation without Neva's magic. It's very likely he's going to use it again in the last eps, maybe even Vegeta too. There's also still the fusion bugs which will obviously be used since they didn't bring them up for no reason.

[neatoman]

Seriously, am I the only one who wants to know what the bird thing is?

[Coola Yagami]

Goku doesn't have access to the transformation without Neva's magic. It's very likely he's going to use it again in the last eps, maybe even Vegeta too. There's also still the fusion bugs which will obviously be used since they didn't bring them up for no reason.

Yeah, that's a hell of a Chekov's gun to just bring up and never see fruition, especially for a series known to use fusions in the final act.

Seriously, am I the only one who wants to know what the bird thing is?

I figured it's just made up visual stuff for the outro. Some of these intros show adventures or things that don't happen in the actual series. So far the gang hasn't grilled huge fish or chilled out at a local river.

[neatoman]

Sure, we haven't seen "everything" in the OP and ED but the bird thing is given special attention and we see the feathers in the OP as well. Unlike, let's say the fish, it does seem more important somehow which is why I assume it is.

[sdp]

We've gone through the canon discussioni before in this same thread. Basically the only canon is just the original Toriyama manga. The anime is its own thing full of inconsistencies, retcons, AU.

Seeing things from GT and the "non-canon" movies into "canon" is normal, I It's just CUPO: Canon Until Proven Otherwise (https://miscrave.com/articles/cupo/). I mean Toriyama designed a lot of the "non canon" stuff, so it makes sense he would use them eventually.

The whole "Super" is canon is a joke, Toriyama admitted he didn't really work that much on it. The manga and anime are different and have stuff that will never be adapted in anime and manga format, not to mention the contradicting stuff. Hell you have movie and anime adaptations of the same events that are different, people say "just watch the movies' but how does that make sense, if anything it'd be the anime adaptations of the movies that are canon, even though Toriyama mostly worked on the movie. So are the movies canon but not the anime? Daima in Toriyama's own words was the "most he's been involved in" but we dont' know how much that is but even then it's easier to consider Daima canon than anything Super.

The anime continuity is a joke, I mean what is canon? The whole anime has the Garlic Jr saga which flashbacks to the Garlick movie which cannot be canon. Sure some fans do mental gymnastics to make it canon but if you do that you can also make other movies and GT canon. And if anything GT feels more inline with DBs spirit than Super ever did. You also have Kai that is meant to be closer to anime canon but since it's just a repackaged version of the original it has anime content that actually makes less sense without the other anime filler they got rid of.

[neatoman]

If you were to ask some guy at Shueisha, they'd probably tell you that the manga version of Super is the follow up to the original manga and it may very well be the template if Toei decides to make a "Super do-over" if you will, but to tell you the truth... I find it hard to tell you that anything other than the original manga definitely is and maybe Super/Daima in the broad strokes are canon, what with the entire franchise outside of the original manga being filler, side-stories, what-ifs and alternate takes on the same concept. Generally, the parts where the Super manga and anime "agree" I think is canon and (with personal bias and primary rights holder in mind) the manga version might take some priority.

[Coola Yagami]

The thing about the Super manga is they somehow manage to make everything canon.

The Broly movie happened. Then the Moro arc had them recruit Goku and Vegeta and Goku brought up they also know another Saiyan and they showed a flashback panel to the movie.

The Super Hero movie happened. The manga would wrap up the Granolah arc and then start adapting the movie into it.

It wouldn't completely surprise me if somehow the next manga arc references Daima in some way.

The only plothole that the manga can never cover up is how Super started with everyone living in peace with the implication that nothing happened after they defeated Buu. Definitely not turning into children and venturing through the demon realm. And you can't just say 'well maybe Goku, Vegeta, Bulma and Piccolo agreed to just never bring it up' or some nonsense like that because almost everyone from the gang turned into kids.

Actually now that I think about it.... Vegeta got a new manga-only transformation but he wasn't really in the Super Hero arc, except for a spar match with Goku where they both agreed to fight using just martial arts and no transformations. So you avoid the whole 'why didn't Vegeta use Ultra Ego during the fight with Cell Max' because he wasn't there.

[CyberCubed]

It's not that hard to understand canon. GT is not in canon with the current series but (back in 1997), it was a continuation of the anime. It was the same with the first 13 movies being in their own continuity besides the Garlic Jr. movie being continued in the series.

The Super manga is its own thing (continued from DBZ), like the Super anime is its own thing (continued from DBZ). Daima takes place 1 year after the Buu saga (Trunks has his 9th birthday in the first episode, he was 8 in the Buu arc).

[neatoman]

So, the manga finally got another chapter after almost a year of hiatus.
Trunks has terrible drawing skills by the way.

[Coola Yagami]

Oh. Kind of a filler one shot.

[neatoman]

OK, so turns out the weakness of the Third Eye is:
6iyOwyGTYmo

[CyberCubed]

Canon warriors are going to have a lot of work to do.

At this point it's almost like Dragon Ball has a multiverse after the Buu saga. A "choose your own adventure" type thing.

[neatoman]

02_HXkT6iGw

[sdp]

Too bad Toriyama is gone so he can't continue to retcon Super.

[CyberCubed]

At this point after DBZ it's.

1. Daima's timeline

2. Super's timeline

3. GT's timeline

And then Super has TWO continuities, the anime and manga version of Super which are very different. You can technically say 3 since the movie adaptions of the Beerus and Freeza movie are also slightly different in the anime.

Then if you count the videogames/heroes stuff, it's like 4 timelines. But that's all crazy stuff so...

[Coola Yagami]

So... that's a lot for the last episode. I assume Goku Daima 4 will fight Gomah while Piccolo hits him 3 times in the back of the dead, but it'll fail somehow so Goku and Vegeta will have to use the fusion bugs (otherwise why the **** even bring them up).

Then a rushed goodbye epilogue or something? I would have liked the final episode to be an hour but I really doubt it.

[neatoman]

Alright, so what do you think of the final twist/gag of the show?
It being that the third eye wasn't actually a unique magical item and was actually another one of those novelty magic items like the bugs, Gomah could have literally just bought a replacement from that lady if he had known.

Anyway the fusion bugs were never used. Not sure what the point was other than maybe being a red herring or a hint that amazing things can actually be trivial.

[CyberCubed]

The post-credits scene was a typical Toriyama gag, pretty funny. I'm going to miss his humor, you can tell which parts of Daima came directly from him and which else came from the other writers at Toei.

Overall it played out like expected, glad Kuu and Duu are good guys. I really liked that they shot through the 3 barriers so the 3 demon realm levels aren't separated anymore. Arinsu and her boys are now the leaders.

But of course Goku still has Super Saiyan 4, and the fusion bugs were not used. I suspect we'll get a follow-up story to Daima eventually addressing this. Remember this takes place only 1 year after the Buu saga (Trunks celebrated his 9th birthday in the first episode), so it's 4 more years until Beerus wakes up. They can fill in 4 more years of stories before Super Saiyan God even happens. Maybe explain what happens to SSJ4 and Shin and Kibito fusing again.

[neatoman]

PK-sA_f9EOI

[Cowabung-Gal]

02_HXkT6iGw

This was definitely Toriyama’s writing :roll:

[Coola Yagami]

On its own Daima was great and the ending was fun. The main complaints I hear are about how it doesn't tie into Super.

Daima's last episode went almost out of its way to not make it fit. Goku shows he can turn SS4 without Neva and has actually been working on the form beforehand. Then they added the fact that they were running out of senzus and stocking up on revive bugs, knowing full well we're not going to see them in Super.

At that point might as well go balls to wall and have Piccolo choose to stay in the Demon Realm or other contradictory nonsense. Have Kaiohshin retire and Arinsu replace him despite her not being in Super. Have the Majins live with Bulma, despite them not being in Super. Hell, give Krillin a second kid that we'll never see in Super. None of it matters anymore.

But on its own the show was great. A bit slow at parts but great. One thing that bugged me was how long it took Bulma and the rest to catch up with Goku's crew, bit once they're together it felt like we got to see them all long enough.

[CyberCubed]

Remember this show took place 1 year after the Buu saga (as Trunks has his 9th birthday in the first ep), but there are still 4 more years till Beerus wakes up.

Funnily enough, they can now fit a whole bunch of stories in the 4 years between Daima and the beginning of Super. It's hard to believe everything from Beerus onward happens 5 years after Buu...and they mostly covered the 5 years till the beginning of End of Z with Uub. God I hated how Trunks/Goten didn't age at all for most of Super because it looked so weird given Trunks was like 13-14 by then.

[neatoman]

Remember this show took place 1 year after the Buu saga (as Trunks has his 9th birthday in the first ep), but there are still 4 more years till Beerus wakes up.

Funnily enough, they can now fit a whole bunch of stories in the 4 years between Daima and the beginning of Super. It's hard to believe everything from Beerus onward happens 5 years after Buu...and they mostly covered the 5 years till the beginning of End of Z with Uub. God I hated how Trunks/Goten didn't age at all for most of Super because it looked so weird given Trunks was like 13-14 by then.

Well, I suppose that's Toyotaro's job to figure out. After all, it was his job to figure out how Kaio's planet came back but why Kaio himself remained dead... And why the old guy allowed the Kaioshin to unfuse... And why it took the Freeza Forces 15 years to finally decide going for the Earth balls was worth the risk... And how Future Mai was also a child... And how the Future Kaioshin died... And what Zamasu's plan was after killing all mortals... And why the Kaioshin was ignorant of so many details he should know... And why Zamasu went for Goku's body instead of Monaka's... And why the new future timeline won't repeat itself... And the Cell Jrs. didn't seem to regenerate... And...

... Well, I'm sure that if was willing to answer all that, I'm sure he's willing to answer why Goku never tried SS4 against Beerus and why the Kaioshin refused, those spare four years in the timeline seems plenty for that. Hell, I'm sure he'd be willing to answer why Vegeta is back as Freeza's lackey in Neko Majin too.

[neatoman]

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