Iran attacks Israel

[Andrew NDB]

Missiles and drones launched.

https://www.foxnews.com/live-news/israel-on-alert-as-iran-launches-drones-toward-jewish-state

[joe-eyeball]

Highly doubt this won’t continue to escalate at this point! That whole region is probably about to become hell on Earth multiplied by a thousand!

[Mayhem]

Israel dismissed UNSC calls for a ceasefire and now is calling on them to step in :roll: Its like the school bully whining at its dad to do something now the kid they’ve been picking on has had its older brother come in to fight back.

I’m 50 this year. I don’t think I can recall any significant time when something hasn’t been going on in that region conflict wise. Almost of the opinion the entire area should be clearer, no one can have it, stop any fighting over it.

[Andrew NDB]

Israel dismissed UNSC calls for a ceasefire

Why wouldn't they? That only benefits Hamas.

[joe-eyeball]

Even if Israel goes the diplomatic route it probably won’t stop Iran from continuing to try to force their hand and get things ramped up even more.

[Mayhem]

Why wouldn't they? That only benefits Hamas.
And the small matter of the hundreds of thousands of displaced people struggling to get eat and stay warm, let alone stay alive, and the aid workers getting killed trying to do that by Israel, yeah let’s just overlook that :roll: when even the US is behind the ceasefire solution, you might, just ever so slightly, be on the wrong side of the decision process.

I will note, obviously, that I don’t condone what Iran has done, or tried to do here. Doesn’t help matters one iota to de-escalate the situation.

[Andrew NDB]

And the small matter of the hundreds of thousands of displaced people struggling to get eat and stay warm, let alone stay alive, and the aid workers getting killed trying to do that by Israel, yeah let’s just overlook that :roll: when even the US is behind the ceasefire solution, you might, just ever so slightly, be on the wrong side of the decision process.

The "ceasefire solution" isn't one. And what a horrible message that would send if they did do a ceasefire: "go ahead and invade a country and rape, behead and massacre hundreds of men, women and babies... as long as you go back to your country and hide amongst your civilians (who by all metrics far and wide support you and what you did) then we'll just leave you alone." I mean, that's setting up a really sh**ty playbook for future terror attacks.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

In the long-term, Israel's reputation will continue deteriorating and it will eventually collapse.

October 7th eventually had most of the world sympathising with the Israelis but in the long-term, they have lost tons of money and resources. This is no different.

[Bahamut810]

Israel dismissed UNSC calls for a ceasefire and now is calling on them to step in :roll: Its like the school bully whining at its dad to do something now the kid they’ve been picking on has had its older brother come in to fight back.

I’m 50 this year. I don’t think I can recall any significant time when something hasn’t been going on in that region conflict wise. Almost of the opinion the entire area should be clearer, no one can have it, stop any fighting over it.

The bully? Its a smaller kid who tries to kill a much bigger kid then getting mad when the kid doesnt let him run away when he hides behind his mom.

Hamas, whose goal is to commit another Holocaust, is attacking a country who has tried multiple times to make peace and finally gave them land and infrastructure to try to get some peace. This would literally not be happening if Hamas didnt attack Isreal.

You are supporting literal Nazis.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

The bully? Its a smaller kid who tries to kill a much bigger kid then getting mad when the kid doesnt let him run away when he hides behind his mom.

I think your example would be more accurate if the big kid took away the small kids house and killed his family.

And big kid always falls back on mommy USA.

[Bahamut810]

I think your example would be more accurate if the big kid took away the small kids house and killed his family.

And big kid always falls back on mommy USA.

Yes they have been at war for a long time. Israel has said "leave us alone" multiple times and the Palestinians have denied it time and time again. At least 5 times that I know about they said "Look, we just want this take everything else" until they finally displaced their own population. You know, a population that supports the genocide of the Jewish people.

As it stands though...Hamas is knowingly attacking a stronger force from the homes of civilians who support them. This didn't start back up till they decided to throw that punch. Kind of play stupid games scenario. I hope Israel gets its land that it abandoned for peace back.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

As a Palestine and by extension Hamas supporter, I respect your tone with me and willingness to discuss.

I think the "leave us alone" part by Israel is where they fall flat. They are the occupier, therefore they have no right to tell the occupied that they want to be left alone.

And I would disagree that it started on October 7th. It started the moment that Palestinians were kicked out of their own land.

[Bahamut810]

As a Palestine and by extension Hamas supporter, I respect your tone with me and willingness to discuss.

I think the "leave us alone" part by Israel is where they fall flat. They are the occupier, therefore they have no right to tell the occupied that they want to be left alone.

And I would disagree that it started on October 7th. It started the moment that Palestinians were kicked out of their own land.

Yep, its their land. They were there before Rome took it (the people who named it Palestine). Its their land after it was reconquered and given back. It might be time for them (assuming you don't still live there) to stop picking fights with people who can and have the support to wipe them off the map. Hamas (the people wanting to commit genocide) are lucky the Geneva convention happened.

After the Holocaust the Jews just need some peace and you arent helping.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

I support Jewish people who want to live in Palestine, as long as they don't displace the local population.

Palestine has been continuosly starved and its people massacared for 70 plus years for the sake of the Zionist regime.

Why are they striking out against the much technologically superior Israel and risk annihiliation? Its because they have nothing to lose.

A dying people can either choose to perish in silence, or strike out one last time against the nation which has continuosly violated their right to Self-Determination. They chose the latter, and they are turning the world opinion against Israel in a way that is unprecedented in modern history, even if their odds of survivng are slim.

Free Palestine.

[Cowabung-Gal]

As a Palestine and by extension Hamas supporter

…what.

Please tell me you’re trolling. Does supporting Muslims make you by extension a supporter of ISIS? Palestinians resent Hamas too because they’re zealous bloodthirsty terrorists.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Na, I don't support Isis. Isis is an American and Israeli psyop designed to destabilise the Muslim world.

I support Hamas insofar as they fight for Palestinian self-determination. I can condemn specific atrocities by Hamas (the proven ones, not Zionist hoaxes), but their cause is just and the rationale behind their military operations is justified.

[Bahamut810]

I support Jewish people who want to live in Palestine, as long as they don't displace the local population.

Palestine has been continuosly starved and its people massacared for 70 plus years for the sake of the Zionist regime.

Why are they striking out against the much technologically superior Israel and risk annihiliation? Its because they have nothing to lose.

A dying people can either choose to perish in silence, or strike out one last time against the nation which has continuosly violated their right to Self-Determination. They chose the latter, and they are turning the world opinion against Israel in a way that is unprecedented in modern history, even if their odds of survivng are slim.

Free Palestine.

Palestine can be free! Take the two state solution that has been offered 5 times and be free. Stop attacking Israeli civilians and be free. Stop advocating genocide and be free.

The Palestinians are coveting what is the Isreali's. The land belongs to Israel. They own it again (after a hiatus). If they keep attacking over a century old land dispute they lost...What can you expect?

[Cowabung-Gal]

Na, I don't support Isis. Isis is an American and Israeli psyop designed to destabilise the Muslim world.

Right. And it was actually extraterrestrials who built the pyramids, not the Egyptians.

Radical extremists do exist, you know. I would name Jonestown as an example, but you’d probably dismiss that as a CIA experiment gone horribly wrong.

I support Hamas insofar as they fight for Palestinian self-determination. I can condemn specific atrocities by Hamas (the proven ones, not Zionist hoaxes), but their cause is just and the rationale behind their military operations is justified.

Ah, the classic “The end justifies the means” logic. If you give monsters an inch, they’ll burn down the entire world.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

The Palestinians are coveting what is the Isreali's. The land belongs to Israel. They own it again (after a hiatus). If they keep attacking over a century old land dispute they lost...What can you expect?

I think there is a huge difference between Palestine's claims from 75 years ago (and more recently) and Israel's claims from thousands of years ago.

There are living Palestinians today older than the state of Israel itself.

Even then, the Jews weren't completely barred from Palestine before 1948 (for example: the Havaara Agreement). There could've been ways of settling that didn't involve expulsion and the extermination of Arabs.

[Andrew NDB]

I support Jewish people who want to live in Palestine, as long as they don't displace the local population.

You know who doesn't support that? The Palestinians. Historically.

[Bahamut810]

I think there is a huge difference between Palestine's claims from 75 years ago (and more recently) and Israel's claims from thousands of years ago.

There are living Palestinians today older than the state of Israel itself.

Even then, the Jews weren't completely barred from Palestine before 1948 (for example: the Havaara Agreement). There could've been ways of settling that didn't involve expulsion and the extermination of Arabs.

A constantly conquered land being conquered. It has changed hands multiple times so...Yeah the last time it changed hands was back to the Jews. Hamas is trying really hard to make sure that those old Palestinians go away, you know...attacking people with bigger and better guns from the hospitals.

Also...are you really suggesting that Jews can freely go into a place ran by a group that wants to commit a second holocaust against them? Are you seriously suggesting that?

[TurtleManiac]

Crashing the economy and leading us into World War 3… wasn’t this supposed to happen during the Trump Presidency?

Remember when Trump whacked that top terrorist guy in Iran, they were left spooked and never retaliated. Obama and Biden, on the other hand, are funding these terrorists billions of taxpayer dollars. And no way a weak puppet President like Biden can keep Iran, China, Russia, and North Korea in check. Weak U.S. leadership enables and emboldens commies, nazis, dictators and terrorists all over the world. All by design, war mongering globalist agenda.

Wasn’t there also a Trump era Middle East Peace deal that the Biden regime un-did?

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Also...are you really suggesting that Jews can freely go into a place ran by a group that wants to commit a second holocaust against them? Are you seriously suggesting that?

The last time I checked, The "kill all Jews" clause simply does not exist in the Hamas charter.

You know who doesn't support that? The Palestinians. Historically.

Not true. There have been Jewish and Arab communities living together in Palestine living for more than a thousand years.

There were even instances of Jewish Emigration to Palestine such as the Havaraa Agreement in 1933-1939 which did not cost the Arabs.

[Mayhem]

The actions of the last few weeks have made it painfully obvious that Israel doesn’t just want to defeat Hamas (which is a fair cause) but essentially displace anyone not Jewish from the region and take all the land back for themselves. The illegal land grabs back and new Israeli settlements for years so far were indicators, let alone the mistreatment of the Palestinians living there.

As for Iran, that’s the unknown factor. Targeting a consulate in Syria… I mean sure, bad guys might be inside but these are <Joss Ackland> diplomatic immunity <\JA> locations you’re not supposed to blow up because once you start down that path, almost anything from a worldwide legal binding agreement perspective is off the table and a viable target.

Hamas need support. The more brutal Israel are, the more support Hamas have on the ground. The more Hamas are seen to be the plucky underdog fighting Israel, the more support Hamas have politically. No fight against Israel, no need for Hamas.

Israel has a largely far right government. It has the same support issues as Hamas. The more powerful Israel's enemies are seen to be, the more support Israel's government has on the ground. The more Israel is seen to be the victim of terrorist violence, the more support Israel has politically. When Israel has no enemies, the far right is no longer needed.

With Hamas as disruptive force it's near impossible to reach the former goal of a two-state solution, a solution Netanyahu and his far-right government are opposed to themselves. In the end you get two political enemies somehow supporting and depending on each other.

October 7th was basically to Netanyahu what the Argentinian attack on the Falkland Islands was to Maggie Thatcher’s political stature in 1982. Struggling, opinion in the country turning against, and suddenly a vital conflict girds more unifying support and a “distraction” from self imposed troubles.

[Andrew NDB]

The actions of the last few weeks have made it painfully obvious that Israel doesn’t just want to defeat Hamas (which is a fair cause) but essentially displace anyone not Jewish from the region and take all the land back for themselves.

Of course, temporarily. The next phase will be occupying the territory and getting the "wipe out the Jews" propaganda from the schools and basically de-nazifying the whole region for the next generation otherwise this will just keep happening.

With Hamas as disruptive force it's near impossible to reach the former goal of a two-state solution

Not to mention, who would run the Palestinian state? Certainly not Hamas. Egypt doesn't want to, neither does Jordan. The Palestinian Authority might do it, but that's the same Palestinian Authority that pays money to anyone with a confirmed Jewish kill... so probably not them, right? Who's left? There isn't anybody.

a solution Netanyahu and his far-right government are opposed to themselves. In the end you get two political enemies somehow supporting and depending on each other.

You're completely ignorant of how government works in Israel. Right now Netanyahu is part of a war cabinet which includes prominent members of the left, all of which are completely unified in what they're doing in Gaza.

[oldmanwinters]

I feel like its inevitable the US will always be “at war,” in conflict”, or tied up in proxy war with either Iran or Iraq (usually while playing nice with the other one). Just take your pick from decade to decade. Except you can’t blame this on one an oil crisis. This is about “right to exist” ideology that not even Jimmy Carter in his best days would have had any chance to resolve.

[Bahamut810]

The actions of the last few weeks have made it painfully obvious that Israel doesn’t just want to defeat Hamas (which is a fair cause) but essentially displace anyone not Jewish from the region and take all the land back for themselves. The illegal land grabs back and new Israeli settlements for years so far were indicators, let alone the mistreatment of the Palestinians living there.

Yeah, when the closest thing to modern day Nazi's are attacking you from civilian buildings to try to make you look like the bad guys when you respond to their Holocaust #2 attempts after repeated peace attempts with a two state solution I am sure any country would get a bit crabby.

[CyberCubed]

The middle east has been in war for hundreds of years and will be for the next hundreds of years. There is no helping that region, every single country there is living 100 years in the past.

I feel bad for all the innocent people there caught up in all these wars, but there's really nothing that can be done. It really does not help that Israel is literally surrounded by all those Muslim or Islamic countries. Like imagine if Israel was in Africa or something, or further up in Europe...almost all these wars would not even be a thing. It's geographic location is literally the worst spot for everyone.

[Mayhem]

Of course, temporarily.
No, permenantly.

You're completely ignorant of how government works in Israel. Right now Netanyahu is part of a war cabinet which includes prominent members of the left, all of which are completely unified in what they're doing in Gaza.
I was referring to before the October 7th attacks occurred. Right now, any war cabinet should include members of parties from all sides, it certainly did here during WW2 for example even though Churchill was in charge and had the final say in matters. And you weren't aware of how increasingly unpopular Netanyahu was becomming prior to the attack. Not everyone Jewish outside Israel supports the actions of the country right now.

What I think we can all agree on, is that the situation is, and has been for decades, a complete fustercluck, and that in hindsight, the decisions taken post WW2 in that region haven't necessarily been the best they could have turned out to be. But what could have been the alternatives? That is the $64B question, and one I certainly can't answer despite what I know politically and historically.

[Andrew NDB]

No, permenantly.

Based on what? They have no interest in that. They themselves voluntarily left the Gaza strip 20 years ago. During which time, of course, guess what the Palestinians could have been doing? Building their state up, creating their own "two state solution." What did they do instead? Voted in Hamas almost unanimously and then spent billions of dollars in foreign aid not in infrastructure but digging terror tunnels and buying up rockets and mortars so as to be ready to kill more Jews.

And you weren't aware of how increasingly unpopular Netanyahu was becomming prior to the attack.

Doesn't make any difference. Nobody on either side would be reacting remotely differently.

Not everyone Jewish outside Israel supports the actions of the country right now.

No, you won't really find any actual practicing Jews who don't support Israel, really. You might bump into a couple with blue hair who haven't been to synagogue in 20 years, but that's about it.

[Bahamut810]

You might bump into a couple with blue hair who haven't been to synagogue in 20 years, but that's about it.

This is what genuinely boggles my mind. People of that bent spend so much time trying to make whatever small tiny connections between people they disagree with and Nazi's to justify their position.

However...when Hamas is actually tries to commit Genocide and kill people they find inferior (like LGBT people) they *agree* with them.

[IMJ]

This is what genuinely boggles my mind. People of that bent spend so much time trying to make whatever small tiny connections between people they disagree with and Nazi's to justify their position.

However...when Hamas is actually tries to commit Genocide and kill people they find inferior (like LGBT people) they *agree* with them.

Evidence that people don't generally operate on a true moral core. Instead most people just present the information as they feel suits them...

[Andrew NDB]

Evidence that people don't generally operate on a true moral core. Instead most people just present the information as they feel suits them...

And why waste a perfectly good opportunity to rag against The West™?

[Cowabung-Gal]

And why waste a perfectly good opportunity to rag against The West™?

Rent-a-mob clowns.

[Mayhem]

They themselves voluntarily left the Gaza strip 20 years ago.
And been slowly taking bits of it back ever since…

I know we aren’t going to agree on a bunch of matters, but there’s a huge amount of not anti Israel sentiment in a lot of Western countries, it’s not the people, it’s the actions of the Government and the IDF. A mate of mine knew one of the aid workers recently killed. I could spend time typing what his thoughts are from what occurred, but quite frankly, why bother, it’s not going to make a difference to anyone here. Cue old comment about arguing on the internet and the Special Olympics…

Even America, in its almost blind hamstrung support of Israel regardless, is wavering with the various calls currently to tone the **** down in its actions. It’s like everyone in Palestine deserves to suffer for the actions of Hamas, in the same way Muslims in general got nuked in the US due to the idiots who carried out 9/11. Because that’s the impression I get in general in this thread.

[Andrew NDB]

Hamas and Hezbollah and the Houthis are all pretty openly just fingers of Iran... and not all Islamic countries are down with them. Israel's overall goal is most likely to box in Iran and then... not sure. Probably just hamstring them, at that point. Israel will seek alliances with places like Saudi Arabia and Jordan.

Though idk. Israel kind of has to do something to Iran directly at this point or future attacks will just be accepted. But probably not until they are done with Hamas. Ironically what Iran has done here -- which was largely just ceremonial, to show Iranians that they will do SOMETHING when their leaders were killed (one of them, apparently the mastermind of the 10/7 attacks, so there's that) by the IDF -- is to soften international resistance to Israel finishing the job in Gaza. Not that Israel cares or should care.

[Mayhem]

Israel basically attacked what is supposed to be "neutral" sovereign territory belonging to one country situated in a third country. You're not supposed to do that, and Israel thought it could get away with it. Why do you think we never stormed the Ecuadorian embassy in London to get Julian Assange out despite the active warrants at the time?

Was Iran's response disproportionate to what occurred? Definitely. But this is Iran so... same careful consideration as dealing with Russia currently. Unfortunately.

[Andrew NDB]

Israel basically attacked what is supposed to be "neutral" sovereign territory belonging to one country

Not true. It was a military base NEXT to an embassy. Why there is a military base right next to an embassy, it isn't too hard to surmise reasons if your supposition begins with "well, if they're up to no good, then..." And evidently the Iranian leaders were meeting with Hezbollah there at that time? Hmm... wonder why.

[Mayhem]

Not true. It was a military base NEXT to an embassy. Why there is a military base right next to an embassy, it isn't too hard to surmise reasons if your supposition begins with "well, if they're up to no good, then..." And evidently the Iranian leaders were meeting with Hezbollah there at that time? Hmm... wonder why.
Regardless of its use at the time (which I’m not going to dispute because of the people listed as being killed), from the reports I’ve read in media here (not anything to do with Middle East media etc), still diplomatic soil, still a diplomatic building and why so many Western countries reacted when it occurred.

[TurtleManiac]

Several U.S. bridges, airports and highways were blocked by pro Hamas protesters on Monday, in what appears to be organized crime. George Soros anti-American foot soldiers at it again.

It’s crazy how these pro Hamas protesters can just block airports, highways, and bridges, and the police just stand around and do nothing. It almost seems like the cops were aiding and abetting them. Everyone saw the recent Baltimore bridge collapse, and these commies and nazis have the nerve to block traffic, trapping all those cars on a bridge. What if another ship comes by and crashed into it?

Burning US flag and chanting “death to America” in NYC:

https://twitter.com/ImMeme0/status/1779963797299491226

This is domestic terrorism, the enemy is already here. Any illegals engaging in this activity should immediately be deported.

[Andrew NDB]

still a diplomatic building

How can a military base be a diplomatic building in any way, shape or form? If I build an illegal chop shop shop next to an embassy in Brazil and I get bombed, should there be similar outcry? This seems like barely 2% a better situation than, say, Hamas building terror tunnel bases under hospitals and then the leftist media going crazy when ultimately they have to be dealt with at some point. Maybe worse in this case, since it was the guy who masterminded the October 7th attacks cheersing with Hezbollah (who are to the north of Israel and have way more rockets pointed at Israel than Hamas).

[Mayhem]

How can a military base be a diplomatic building in any way, shape or form?
In no news report I've read has there been any mention of "military base". It's been listed as a companion building to the main consulate in multiple reports here in Europe. It's still on diplomatic soil, regardless of its purpose at the time of the attack. That's why there's the outcry, even though the result was positive for Israel. It would be exactly the same if, for example, the garden area next to the American embassy in London was blown up, that's still American diplomatic soil and is in theory "immune".

[Andrew NDB]

Of course they had to do something. Sounds like something equally as ceremonial as Iran's attack, though. Still, I agree this is all pretty yeesh... Iran sort of has to keep their promise now or admit they're a joke. Imagine trying to sleep right about now in Israel.

[oldmanwinters]

Sounds like now it's really heating up.

[Mayhem]

Iran reports nothing happened. Hopefully things cooling down…

[Andrew NDB]

Iran reports nothing happened. Hopefully things cooling down…

That's a really good sign. If they were widely reporting the Israeli attack to their own people, they would be readying for the "highest response" they promised. Since they're just pretending publicly nothing happened, they don't have to do that.

[Cowabung-Gal]

4n_RobrlDiU

Yes. This is a cult. No question about it. They claim it’s not an antisemitism issue and that they’re merely protesting Israel, but if a Jew-hating member calls a random Jewish person a Zionist, that will immediately get the mob excited and without asking questions they will harass and maybe even beat up the poor guy. Also, merely calling Israel a country makes you a Zionist now?

Hey, you know who else used the fear of Zionism as excuse to persecute the Jewish citizens? That’s right, the Soviet Union.

Tim’s story about the mob singling him out reminded me of this:

rhOnKJz8U1E

[Mayhem]

Exactly the same, sadly, as when Muslims were targetted relentlessly in the US following 9/11. People unable to disassociate the general mass from the actual target they should be solely aiming at.

[Andrew NDB]

"Palestinian student bullied and attacked on campus!"

Yeah, you don't see that at all. It's just scores of Jewish kids getting harassed on campus after campus and ambushed and threatened with death.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Na man, Palestine supporting students are routinely targeted by powerful Jewish lobbyists who practically control Western Governments.

Organisations like the Canary Mission and the Anti-Defamation League come to mind.

[Drose18]

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C6IguL7uoLv/

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C6KBe77Py6Q/

https://www.instagram.com/p/C6JgI5Yti-I/

[Andrew NDB]

Man. This is so cyclical. Every generation really needs a "cause" like this to latch onto. But this is probably the stupidest one I've ever seen

[Mayhem]

Also that first reel, I completely agree with the idea of the point he is making. It still doesn’t mean what Israel is doing is “right” though.

[Drose18]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Jewish/s/ykEgxgaUMT

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-04-24/iran-hands-death-sentence-to-rapper-toomaj-salehi-for-protest-songs

[Andrew NDB]

It still doesn’t mean what Israel is doing is “right” though.

What on earth should they do instead? Pat Hamas on the back and say, "Well played, Hamas... you've successfully hid amongst civilians so our hands are tied now!"? Israel has gone out of their way in a historically unprecedented manner -- like, ever, of any country -- in trying to avoid civilian casualties during a war.

[Cowabung-Gal]

Just ask these anti-Israel protestors who want the genocide to stop, what would happen if Israel tore down the border walls and allowed the Palestinians to move in.

What would happen? I seriously doubt that this would be result:

https://media1.tenor.com/m/FxgE0vcrC54AAAAd/lionel-hutz-world-peace.gif

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Just ask these anti-Israel protestors who want the genocide to stop, what would happen if Israel tore down the border walls and allowed the Palestinians to move in.

What would happen? I seriously doubt that this would be result:

https://media1.tenor.com/m/FxgE0vcrC54AAAAd/lionel-hutz-world-peace.gif

The IDF Leadership and many of the diaper army soldiers would be swiftly executed.

The civilians would be allowed to live in the new Palestine though under the protected "People of the Book" status afforded to Jews in Islamic Law.

What on earth should they do instead?

Fight man to man instead of pushing buttons in a control room.

[Bahamut810]

The IDF Leadership and many of the diaper army soldiers would be swiftly executed.

The civilians would be allowed to live in the new Palestine though under the protected "People of the Book" status afforded to Jews in Islamic Law.

Ah yes, that would totally work under a group who wants to kill them for being Jews. You know, after they bled them dry for all they were worth after their Jizya. You know, paying protection money or something might just happen to them. Like the mob and a protection racket.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Ah yes, that would totally work under a group who wants to kill them for being Jews. You know, after they bled them dry for all they were worth after their Jizya. You know, paying protection money or something might just happen to them. Like the mob and a protection racket.

Gotta pay your taxes man (Jizya means taxes for non-Muslims in Islamic Law for those who aren't aware).

If you don't pay your taxes in America, it's not all flowers and roses either. I don't see a problem.

[neatoman]

Gotta pay your taxes man (Jizya means taxes for non-Muslims in Islamic Law for those who aren't aware).

If you don't pay your taxes in America, it's not all flowers and roses either. I don't see a problem.

That's literally people being taxed for being a religious minority, it's not even remotely fair because it has nothing to do with income levels or property, which is what tax is usually based on.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

That's literally people being taxed for being a religious minority, it's not even remotely fair because it has nothing to do with income levels or property, which is what tax is usually based on.

To be fair, non-Muslims don't have to pay the obligatory tax imposed on Muslims so it evens out.

A Muslim ruler can even make it so that the Jizya is lower than the obligatory Muslim tax of 2.5%

[Bahamut810]

To be fair, non-Muslims don't have to pay the obligatory tax imposed on Muslims so it evens out.

A Muslim ruler can even make it so that the Jizya is lower than the obligatory Muslim tax of 2.5%

A tax to not believe a religion can never be fair. If Muslims decide to tax themselves...that's on you.

While the 2.5% may be the norm I have not found a cap to it. I cant imagine that *if* HAMAS does not go through with their stated goal of purging the Jews in Israel in they wont take the lack of cap under consideration.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

A tax to not believe a religion can never be fair. If Muslims decide to tax themselves...that's on you.

I think there's a misunderstanding here. Muslims don't decide to tax themselves, its a divine command and has to be given, even for Muslims living in foreign lands wher they pay their own seperate taxes.

So in a Muslim land, people of all faiths have to pay taxes regardless.

While the 2.5% may be the norm I have not found a cap to it. I cant imagine that *if* HAMAS does not go through with their stated goal of purging the Jews in Israel in they wont take the lack of cap under consideration.

2.5% is not the norm for the non-Muslim tax, its only for Muslims.

The non-Muslim tax is variable and only has to be paid by their able bodied men. And we've discussed this before, but Hamas does not want to *purge all Jews*, such a command does not exist in their charter and has no basis in Islamic Law.

[Drose18]

FredWolfLeonardo check your DMs I want to plant a tree in Israel with your name on It

[Drose18]

Gaza-based militants attack Israeli forces preparing for US pier (https://www.politico.com/news/2024/04/25/gaza-terrorists-attack-israeli-pier-00154386)

Hamas: “They are trying to feed the Palestinian people, stop them!”

[FredWolfLeonardo]

FredWolfLeonardo check your DMs I want to plant a tree in Israel with your name on It

So plant it?

[Drose18]

So plant it?

You seem excited! I think a tree won't be enough for you my good friend.

https://i.imgur.com/IRMi3SP.png

In honor of your commitment, I've made a donation to the Friends of the IDF, supporting their ongoing fight against terrorism and their pursuit of a brighter future for all. Thank you for being a beacon of inspiration.

[Mayhem]

Israel has gone out of their way in a historically unprecedented manner -- like, ever, of any country -- in trying to avoid civilian casualties during a war.
:lol:

Sorry, can’t help laughing, wrongly, at such a daft comment in my eyes… Israel has had complete disdain for civilian causalities in its pursuit of Hamas in Gaza. The uncovering of mass graves in two hospitals recently is just the tip of the icebergs to be discovered.

[Andrew NDB]

:lol:

Sorry, can’t help laughing, wrongly, at such a daft comment in my eyes… Israel has had complete disdain for civilian causalities in its pursuit of Hamas in Gaza.

Are you insane? They could literally carpet bomb them out of existence right now. Or last month. Gaza could be a parking lot within minutes. They aren't doing that. They're methodically doing what they can and yes, there will certainly be civilian casualties as there are in any war. Why in the world are we second guessing why Israel is rooting out Hamas by the roots in Gaza -- a literal TERRORIST ORGANIZATION, elected by the populace of Gaza 20 years ago and still holds an almost unanimous support from the Palestinians there by all polling data -- after they committed the second greatest genocide against Jews since the Holocaust is truly flabbergasting.

Like, when I was younger I'd see a lot of stuff about anti-Semitism. Then came Borat doing his stuff "exposing" a little of that in ways and I sort of rolled my eyes, like, "Yeah yeah, maybe it SEEMS like that, but there isn't really. Nice going to find random hicks that took the bait and etcetera." And I'd laugh. But wow. In the last year, it seems like it's been proven to be 200% genuine. It's totally out there and it's spreading like wildfire. Crazy stuff. Like, this has outed itself as a LEGIT problem, not like with something like BLM did that facts and data don't remotely support.

[Drose18]

The uncovering of mass graves in two hospitals recently is just the tip of the icebergs to be discovered.

Lots of reports that this is fake news

https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-798509

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/israeli-military-refutes-claims-of-mass-grave-at-gaza-hospital/articleshow/109596556.cms?from=mdr

At this time this is at most unconfirmed. Certainly wouldn't be the first (or the last) instance of a UN-aided lie

[FredWolfLeonardo]

You seem excited! I think a tree won't be enough for you my good friend.

https://i.imgur.com/IRMi3SP.png

In honor of your commitment, I've made a donation to the Friends of the IDF, supporting their ongoing fight against terrorism and their pursuit of a brighter future for all. Thank you for being a beacon of inspiration.

$50? Are you insulting the IDF with such a meager nothingburger contribution? Why don't you donate more?

Look at the US government, donating hundreds of billions while their own economy is the worst its ever been for the average American taxpayer. Why not follow that example?

Are you insane? They could literally carpet bomb them out of existence right now. Or last month. Gaza could be a parking lot within minutes.

They can't because of Public Relations. Russia *could* nuke Ukraine similarly, but that won't win Russia any friends either so they won't.

Not that Israel's public relations are the best, with many countries becoming more and more hesitant about Israel by the day, and the BDS movement terrifying Israel so much that they are investing tens of millions to stop it.

[Drose18]

$50? Are you insulting the IDF with such a meager nothingburger contribution? Why don't you donate more?

Oh I’ve donated significantly more than that. I just wanted to immortalize your legacy, as a fellow turtle fan, on the right side of history.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Out of curiosity, how much have you donated if you don't mind telling?

[Drose18]

Out of curiosity, how much have you donated if you don't mind telling?

I’ve donated enough to disprove the theory that Jews are “cheap”

[FredWolfLeonardo]

I’ve donated enough to disprove the theory that Jews are “cheap”

So you're a Jew? Interesting.

Ethnic Jew, Religious Jew or both? Not hating, just legitimately curious.

[Drose18]

So you're a Jew? Interesting.

Ethnic Jew, Religious Jew or both? Not hating, just legitimately curious.

:)

Not quite orthodox but I attend orthodox synagogue (Chabad) most months. I celebrate shabbos every Friday. I can’t do the whole keeping kosher thing

[FredWolfLeonardo]

That's quite fascinating admittedly. Thanks for sharing.

[Andrew NDB]

They can't because of Public Relations. Russia *could* nuke Ukraine similarly, but that won't win Russia any friends either so they won't.

We're not talking about nukes. And this isn't remotely apples to apples. Again, Israel and the Jewish people suffered the worst holocaust since the... well, the holocaust. Yeah, Biden may hem and haw about support in weird ways, but nobody was going to intervene at any action Israel takes against Hamas after that. There wasn't any party that disagreed -- at the time -- that October 7th was horrific and hey, Israel, do what you gotta do. The "wait, maybe actually how about nothing, after it turns out a lot of colleges don't like that and it's an election year?" stuff came days/weeks later. Whether that's boots on the ground from Israel (as they've been doing, methodically) or a sh** ton of targeted missiles. Maybe Iran, but then guess what... the US steps in, because Israel is our ally. But Biden has been quietly supporting Israel while loudly supporting the Hamas supporters to appease the base.

[Bahamut810]

They can't because of Public Relations. Russia *could* nuke Ukraine similarly, but that won't win Russia any friends either so they won't.

Kind of like how HAMAS changed their charter in 2017 while changing none of their leadership and attacking Israel from behind a wall of civilians and hospitals?

[FredWolfLeonardo]

We're not talking about nukes. And this isn't remotely apples to apples.

The baseline principle is the same.

Russia can immediately destroy Ukraine but it won't for PR reasons.

Israel can immediately destroy Palestine but it won't for PR reasons.

Kind of like how HAMAS changed their charter in 2017 while changing none of their leadership and attacking Israel from behind a wall of civilians and hospitals?

Palestine is one of the most densely populated places on Earth and has only become smaller with time. Hamas can't operate from anywhere where there aren't any civilians.

[Mayhem]

Palestine is one of the most densely populated places on Earth and has only become smaller with time. Hamas can't operate from anywhere where there aren't any civilians.
I went to look this up. It’s as densely populated as Tokyo. That’s dense.

[Drose18]

V7RNOh9Muk4

[Bahamut810]

Hamas can't operate from anywhere where there aren't any civilians.

Yeah, that's the reason they are using women and children as shields...

It boggles my mind that Islam is cool with that.

[Mayhem]

It boggles my mind that Islam is cool with that.
Spoiler - anyone using religion as a weapon generally has distorted and mutated the fundamental principles of that religion. See also many evangelical Bible bashers in the Republican Party. Religious friends of mine are abandoning organised religious constructs because of the messages being preached. Jesus taught to be kind, compassionate, think of others, and love thy neighbour. Sure, as long as they are white Americans :roll:

[Bahamut810]

Spoiler - anyone using religion as a weapon generally has distorted and mutated the fundamental principles of that religion. See also many evangelical Bible bashers in the Republican Party. Religious friends of mine are abandoning organised religious constructs because of the messages being preached. Jesus taught to be kind, compassionate, think of others, and love thy neighbour. Sure, as long as they are white Americans :roll:

"What about the Christians?" Yeah, they can be bad too. They are not the ones being terrorists from behind a wall of women, children and sick people though.

[Andrew NDB]

Yeah, that's the reason they are using women and children as shields...

It boggles my mind that Islam is cool with that.

It doesn't really boggle the mind. Death is great for them, since they'll be sent straight to heaven and living the good life.

[Mayhem]

"What about the Christians?" Yeah, they can be bad too. They are not the ones being terrorists from behind a wall of women, children and sick people though.
Telling women what they can and can’t do with their bodies, kids you’re on your own once you’re born no state help for you, and doing their best to kill Medicare and social security. Sounds quite similar in a way. Oh and shooting dogs as well.

[Cowabung-Gal]

Oh and shooting dogs as well.

Pfffft. Tell that to my Christian mom. We have four dogs in our house, one of which she rescued from being put down at the animal shelter. In fact, she often says that if she ever wins the lottery, she’ll buy a large piece of land to build a dog sanctuary on. Of course if the “tolerant” and “loving” socialists who claim to care so much about the planet would stop voting for more taxes and stupid policies that could only lead to financial ruin, then she and the many other dog lovers in our town would be able to do more for the animals. But nooooooooo….

Also, didn’t Muhammad like order the termination of all dogs, especially the black ones?

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Also, didn’t Muhammad like order the termination of all dogs, especially the black ones?

It was only a command for a certain set of ferocious dogs during his lifetime. After that, he specifically forbade killing dogs.

Anyways, back on topic...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/live/2024/apr/27/middle-east-crisis-israel-gaza-hamas-war-iran-red-sea-houthis

"Hamas said on Saturday it was reviewing a new Israeli proposal for a ceasefire in Gaza."

I'm surprised Israel is proposing a ceasefire and seemingly willing to negotiate with Hamas. Doesn't match the earlier rhetoric of total victory and the complete elimination of Hamas.

[Bahamut810]

Telling women what they can and can’t do with their bodies, kids you’re on your own once you’re born no state help for you, and doing their best to kill Medicare and social security. Sounds quite similar in a way. Oh and shooting dogs as well.

Point one...I agree that personal sovereignty is a key issue.

Point two...Are you *really* comparing limiting abortions and limiting funding for people (food stamps and Medicare/Medicaid still exist) to intentionally hiding behind women and children while you commit acts of terror and murder people? Are you mental?

Point three...Dogs have nothing to do with the issue of terrorists hiding behind women and children and in hospitals to shield themselves from the results of their own terrorist acts.

I'm surprised Israel is proposing a ceasefire and seemingly willing to negotiate with Hamas. Doesn't match the earlier rhetoric of total victory and the complete elimination of Hamas.

It does match the decades of trying to have peace though. They dont really have a winning move here other then peace because rolling over HAMAS terrorists trying to finish the holocaust is frowned upon

[FredWolfLeonardo]

It does match the decades of trying to have peace though. They dont really have a winning move here other then peace because rolling over HAMAS terrorists trying to finish the holocaust is frowned upon

I would've expected more of from the "powerful" IDF.

But for Hamas and Palestine, these negotiations are a good sign.

[Andrew NDB]

Israel is not going to waver on eliminating Hamas. They can't. Now, a 6 week ceasefire to get a significant amount of hostages out? Well, that's a long time but they can't really ignore the hostages in good conscience so they have to do that if that's really an option. And yes, Biden can say, "But we're hoping for something more enduring after the 6 weeks!" that's just him trying to placate the Hamas supporters in his base, or what he perceives to be his base and not just crazy outliers. Not gonna happen.

Now, I'm not even sure truly eradicating Hamas beyond generationally and the de-nazification process the IDF has outlined is possible. Because most of these guys can just throw their guns out the window and quickly hide or get rid of their Hamas flags whenever they want to and now they're just suddenly peaceful Palestinians and how would anyone know any different, right? But they have to do what they can while they can.

[TurtleManiac]

And there it is, college campus protesters calling for “socialist reconstruction” of America

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2024/04/there-it-is-campus-protester-says-we-must/

Alex Stein gets assaulted by “trans for Palestine”

https://twitter.com/alexstein99/status/1784664195096592426

Seems like leftists don’t know which side to choose.

[Mayhem]

Interesting...

https://www.axios.com/2024/04/29/netanyahu-biden-icc-arrest-warrants-war-crimes

[Barkworm]

Interesting...

https://www.axios.com/2024/04/29/netanyahu-biden-icc-arrest-warrants-war-crimes
Wow, I wonder what it would mean for the war if arrest warrants were actually issued.

[Andrew NDB]

Wow, I wonder what it would mean for the war if arrest warrants were actually issued.

Here's a hint: absolutely nothing. 0.

[oldmanwinters]

Things will probably get interesting after the dust settles from today, whatever the outcome of Raisi’s crash.

[Andrew NDB]

Things will probably get interesting after the dust settles from today, whatever the outcome of Raisi’s crash.

Oh jeeze. I'm just reading about this now. It SOUNDS like it was probably just bad luck, but we'll see.

[Mayhem]

Considering the rescue team temporarily lost some of its own members during the search due to the thickness of the fog, everything looks like a tragic accident, but you know some people...

[Mayhem]

The chief prosecutor for the ICC is looking to arrest both the leader of Hamas and Netanyahu... yeah good luck there.

The Head of Hamas is deemed likely to have committed the following offences:

Extermination as a crime against humanity, contrary to article 7(1)(b) of the Rome Statute;
Murder as a crime against humanity, contrary to article 7(1)(a), and as a war crime, contrary to article 8(2)(c)(i);
Taking hostages as a war crime, contrary to article 8(2)(c)(iii);
Rape and other acts of sexual violence as crimes against humanity, contrary to article 7(1)(g), and also as war crimes pursuant to article 8(2)(e)(vi) in the context of captivity;
Torture as a crime against humanity, contrary to article 7(1)(f), and also as a war crime, contrary to article 8(2)(c)(i), in the context of captivity;
Other inhumane acts as a crime against humanity, contrary to article 7(l)(k), in the context of captivity;
Cruel treatment as a war crime contrary to article 8(2)(c)(i), in the context of captivity; and
Outrages upon personal dignity as a war crime, contrary to article 8(2)(c)(ii), in the context of captivity.”


Benjamin Netanyahu is considered likely to have committed the following offences:

Starvation of civilians as a method of warfare as a war crime contrary to article 8(2)(b)(xxv) of the Statute;
Wilfully causing great suffering, or serious injury to body or health contrary to article 8(2)(a)(iii), or cruel treatment as a war crime contrary to article 8(2)(c)(i);
Wilful killing contrary to article 8(2)(a)(i), or Murder as a war crime contrary to article 8(2)(c)(i);
Intentionally directing attacks against a civilian population as a war crime contrary to articles 8(2)(b)(i), or 8(2)(e)(i);
Extermination and/or murder contrary to articles 7(1)(b) and 7(1)(a), including in the context of deaths caused by starvation, as a crime against humanity;
Persecution as a crime against humanity contrary to article 7(1)(h);
Other inhumane acts as crimes against humanity contrary to article 7(1)(k).”

[Andrew NDB]

The chief prosecutor for the ICC is looking to arrest both the leader of Hamas and Netanyahu... yeah good luck there.

It's a kangaroo court.

[IMJ]

Taking any action at all that treats Hamas (and all others like them - Al-Queda...) as if they are a valid national body is a mistake and gives them a recognition on the national playing field that they should not have. And whether or not you are for or against Israel, what Nettenyahu says here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzRbwMnJlNM) about the ICC in one minute and 17 seconds is exactly true.

On that note the recent leadership developments in Iran are... timely.

Much of what we see going on - there is a half of humanity who has lost all societal balance and are simply in for hate and chaos while everyone else clings to reason and organization. You don't put a national leader - of any nation, on the same platform as a terrorist organization. It's nonsense.

[Andrew NDB]

Taking any action at all that treats Hamas (and all others like them - Al-Queda...) as if they are a valid national body is a mistake and gives them a recognition

Well, it's funny with the ICC. Hamas isn't a member of it, but the "State of Palestine" is. Which is a thing that doesn't exist. Which tells you all you need to know about the ICC (which the US is NOT a member of).

[Andrew NDB]

Yeesh. Iran's Supreme Leader just said that they have a "surprise" up their sleeve that "the world will remember for centuries." In regard to the "Zionists."

I'm not sure. What could they possibly have that they already wouldn't have used? And is Trump going to wait and find out or strike?

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Yeesh. Iran's Supreme Leader just said that they have a "surprise" up their sleeve that "the world will remember for centuries." In regard to the "Zionists."

I think it will be something destructive, but not a nuclear bomb.

I have read some places that Iran is seeking to exhaust Israel's defenses by sending their cheaper Missiles first and saving the more dangerous stuff for when Israeli defences are depleted, but we shall wait and see.

[Andrew NDB]

I have read some places that Iran is seeking to exhaust Israel's defenses by sending their cheaper Missiles first and saving the more dangerous stuff for when Israeli defences are depleted

I could kind of get that. But what? Could they have some of Russia's hypersonic stuff?

Though also... why bloviate about what they're going to do before doing it?

[FredWolfLeonardo]

I could kind of get that. But what? Could they have some of Russia's hypersonic stuff?

Though also... why bloviate about what they're going to do before doing it?

What I read about the situation (Middle East Spectator on Telegram) if you are interested:

—????/?? Washington Post: 'Israel will only be able to maintain shooting down Iranian ballistic missiles for 10 or 12 more days, then they will need to start rationing munitions'

This could explain why Iran is opting to launch small but consecutive waves. Iran is likely using up some of their older / less sophisticated missiles to deplete Israeli defenses, to make way for the 'real' stuff later on. This is attritional warfare.

In most cases, a small wave of 3-5 Iranian ballistic missiles is enough to prompt the launch of about 10-15 Israeli interceptor missiles, with each one costing at least $12 million dollars (in the case of THAAD).

In contrast, even Iran's most modern missile, the Fattah-1, only costs about $200,000 to produce, according to the IRGC. If we assume 12 interceptors for one Fattah-1 missile (as seen in a video today), that means Israel is spending $144 million dollars to 'intercept' (not always successfully) a single Iranian hypersonic missile.

This is simply not sustainable. Within about two weeks, if Iran keeps up the current pace of fire, Israeli airspace will be at the mercy of Iran's far larger and more destructive solid fuel bsllistic missiles. Unless, of course, the U.S. intervenes directly.

@Middle_East_Spectator

[Andrew NDB]

I'd imagine Israel is constantly being resupplied with whatever it is that the Iron Dome requires, for obvious reasons. There wouldn't be like a hold on that. And at the start of this Iran was firing hundreds of missiles at a time and now only 2 a day... largely because the IDF "sees" where the launch sites are and immediately obliterates them.