Is Turtlemania more of an 80s or 90s phenomenon, in your mind?

[Prowler]

This is an old debate, I know. but honestly, I'm not sure what the right answer is.

The Fred Wolf series aired from 1987 to 1996. Its first season was 5 episodes long, only. Its two longest seasons were the third and fourth seasons, which are from 1989 and 1990, respectively.

Then there's the live action movies. The first one is from 1990. Huge success and arguably the peak of Turtlemania. Also, back in the day, not every animated series reached every part of the world at the same time or close to it as they do these days. The FW series started airing here in Portugal in 1990, AFTER the first movie came out, for example. SOTO, is from 1991, and also a hit. TMNT III is from 1993... and not that successful.

Turtlemania's "last hurrah" seems to have been the SNES version of Turtles in Time, which came out in 1992. By 1993, the Turtlemania phenomenon was cooling off.The 3rd movie was not that popular among fans, and the FW series was on its seventh season and also starting to suffer in the ratings. Next season, the Red Sky seasons would begin and they were 8 episodes only each. I think it's fair to say that in 1994-1996, the Turtlemania phenomenon was pretty much dead. No video games seemed to come out after the Tournament Fighters games in 1993 and the toyline was getting strange. Plus, none of the Red Sky characters got toys, did they?

So... Turtlemania is... 1988-1992? With peak being somewhere around 1989-1990 with the FW series having its 2 longest seasons, the first TMNT video games coming out and the 1990 movie as well.

Perhaps it's fairer to label Turtlemania as more of a phenomenon that markss the transition from the 80s to the 90s, instead?

[Andrew NDB]

Sort of a toss-up. 88 and 89 were REALLY big years for TMNT, but then so were 1990 and 1991. And just like that, it was "done." Beyond the cartoon still chugging along and a dwindling fandom.

I'd lean toward the 90s with 1990 and 1991 in particular. And I bet the toy/merch sales would back it up. Plus that's when the first two movies hit.

[MikeandRaph87]

Both. I have no memory whatsoever of anything before the Spring of 1990 and TMNT is among my earliest memories as an 80s' baby and 90s' kid. TMNT being my first pop culture love and greatest I see it at as a 90s' phenomenon, but acknowledge its both because it is between 1988-1993 being a part of both decades as a result. The 2003 cartoon proved that 1. TMNT is an evergreen property and 2. while its peak is behind it it is still enduring with bumps of success after the 1988-1993 peak.

[Prowler]

Sort of a toss-up. 88 and 89 were REALLY big years for TMNT, but then so were 1990 and 1991. And just like that, it was "done." Beyond the cartoon still chugging along and a dwindling fandom.

I'd lean toward the 90s with 1990 and 1991 in particular. And I bet the toy/merch sales would back it up. Plus that's when the first two movies hit.

Both. I have no memory whatsoever of anything before the Spring of 1990 and TMNT is among my earliest memories as an 80s' baby and 90s' kid. TMNT being my first pop culture love and greatest I see it at as a 90s' phenomenon, but acknowledge its both because it is between 1988-1993 being a part of both decades as a result. The 2003 cartoon proved that 1. TMNT is an evergreen property and 2. while its peak is behind it it is still enduring with bumps of success after the 1988-1993 peak.

I agree with both of you.

Also, decades aren't isolated time periods. It's not like it was 1989 one day and the next day, with the calendar changing to 1990; the world, society and culture took a 180º turn. Many say that the first actual 90s cartoon was Batman TAS, which is from... 1992?

But while TMNT has become evergreen, its peak will forever be Turtlemania in the late 80s/early 90s. That's never gonna be topped.

[frank_one]

I would say Turtlemania was an early 90s thing in most of Europe. Here in Italy the Mirage comics only arrived in 1992 but lasted for only 4 issues, the Archie comics came around the same time but lasted a bit longer. The FW series started airing at the end of 1989 so when the 1990 arrived the turtles still were something new for us here and they were still big in 1993 when the third movie came out. But that was it, by 1994 we were ready to welcome the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers and the interest for the Turtles started to fade away.

[ToTheNines]

Turtlemania came out in 1986.

https://tmnt-ninjaturtles.com/assets/Turtlemania-Special-01-HAND-COLORED_front_1st-print-1986-1-600x947.jpg

[Prowler]

I would say Turtlemania was an early 90s thing in most of Europe. Here in Italy the Mirage comics only arrived in 1992 but lasted for only 4 issues, the Archie comics came around the same time but lasted a bit longer. The FW series started airing at the end of 1989 so when the 1990 arrived the turtles still were something new for us here and they were still big in 1993 when the third movie came out. But that was it, by 1994 we were ready to welcome the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers and the interest for the Turtles started to fade away.

Sounds about right.

I was born in 1990. I remember Power Rangers still being hot when I entered 1st grade. I even had a green ranger toy, even though I don't recall ever watching MMPR in my life. But I loved that toy, anyway.

Were Biker Mice from Mars popular in Italy, too? They were very big here back in 1994-1997 or so. I've never watched it myself, though.

[neatoman]

If we're talking about the era of FW, Archie and the first two live-action movies that an unhealthy portion of the fanbase refuse to let go of, then it would be a mostly 90's thing that started at the end of the 80's.

[frank_one]

Were Biker Mice from Mars popular in Italy, too? They were very big here back in 1994-1997 or so. I've never watched it myself, though.
They were popular here as well but not for long, I guess. Maybe an year or two. The toys were great!

As for the Turtles, I did a quick research and I find out that the Archie comics series was brought to Italy by two different publisher:
- DeAgostini (1990-1992?): magazine size floppies containing an episode. The covers were taken from the Fleetway version published in the UK.
- Edigamma (1992-1994?): pocket size books with more comics pages and some games and short text stories. Not sure where the covers come from, they probably used exsisting stock artworks edited together by the publisher.

Both are very rare, I don't think they ever reach a big success.

[Coola Yagami]

For me the last hurrah was TMNT Tournament Fighters, the SNES one anyway.

I still it was the best original from the ground up fighting game on the SNES. Any other fighting game only played right because they were arcade adaptations. The other all-originals were either crap like Shaq Fu and Ballz or they played like crap like Clayfighter.

[CyberCubed]

I'd actually consider 1995-1996 the end for 3 reasons:

- Mirage Volume 2 ended at this time, and Mirage stopped publishing comics till 2001

- The original TMNT cartoon ended its 10 season run in 1995

- Archie TMNT Adventures ended with Year of the Turtle in 1995

- The movie trilogy was over since 1993


1995/1996 was basically the cut-off point of "Gen 1" of Turtlemania. After that you just had Image and Next Mutation in 1997 but they were obscure to most fans at the time.

[ToTheNines]

FW season 10 and Year of the Turtle were both 1996.

[frank_one]

Even if Next Mutation had been better, it wouldn't have succeded in regaining the interest back, it was too late.

[Prowler]

They were popular here as well but not for long, I guess. Maybe an year or two. The toys were great!

As for the Turtles, I did a quick research and I find out that the Archie comics series was brought to Italy by two different publisher:
- DeAgostini (1990-1992?): magazine size floppies containing an episode. The covers were taken from the Fleetway version published in the UK.
- Edigamma (1992-1994?): pocket size books with more comics pages and some games and short text stories. Not sure where the covers come from, they probably used exsisting stock artworks edited together by the publisher.

Both are very rare, I don't think they ever reach a big success.

Oh I didn't mean literally from 1994 to 1997. Just, more or less, within that time frame. I no longer remember when that cartoon series aired.


Planeta D'Agostini! I bought stuff from them as a kid as well. Not any Turtles related stuff, but I'd not be surprised they sold TMNT stuff in 1990-1992 here.
For me the last hurrah was TMNT Tournament Fighters, the SNES one anyway.

I still it was the best original from the ground up fighting game on the SNES. Any other fighting game only played right because they were arcade adaptations. The other all-originals were either crap like Shaq Fu and Ballz or they played like crap like Clayfighter.

Well, I'm not talking about quality here, but popularity and commercial success. I don't think any of the Tournament Fighters games were successful. They were all different from each other, for starters. The NES one came out pretty much near the end of the system's life. 1993 was pretty much peak SNES/Mega Drive aka 16 bit era, already. Not that many people were still buying NES games by then, surely.

I'd actually consider 1995-1996 the end for 3 reasons:

- Mirage Volume 2 ended at this time, and Mirage stopped publishing comics till 2001

- The original TMNT cartoon ended its 10 season run in 1995

- Archie TMNT Adventures ended with Year of the Turtle in 1995

- The movie trilogy was over since 1993


1995/1996 was basically the cut-off point of "Gen 1" of Turtlemania. After that you just had Image and Next Mutation in 1997 but they were obscure to most fans at the time.
I see what you mean, but I was 5-6 years old at the time, and the Turtles were already a thing of the past where I live. I'm not even sure if the Red Sky seasons aired here, in fact...

Even if Next Mutation had been better, it wouldn't have succeded in regaining the interest back, it was too late.
TNM aired in Portugal around 1997-1998, according to a couple of guys around my age I spoke to many years ago. they remember watching it as kids. I don't, even though I'd have been 7-8 years old at the time. Anyway, even they admitted "man that show was lousy!" even though they watched it when they were kids :lol:

If we're talking about the era of FW, Archie and the first two live-action movies that an unhealthy portion of the fanbase refuse to let go of, then it would be a mostly 90's thing that started at the end of the 80's.
Yes, ofc we're talking about that era. That was the peak of TMNT popularity, whether we like it or not. How many of us here would even know of TMNT if not for that era?

[Andrew NDB]

Even if Next Mutation had been better, it wouldn't have succeded in regaining the interest back, it was too late.

That's really hard to say. Each generation of kids generally wants "THEIR" own thing, so maybe if NT:TNM had come out a couple of years later and had been way better it'd be a very different situation.

[Prowler]

That's really hard to say. Each generation of kids generally wants "THEIR" own thing, so maybe if NT:TNM had come out a couple of years later and had been way better it'd be a very different situation.

As I said, even the few people I've spoken to who watched TNM when they were little kids laugh about it as adults nowadays "Man, that show was so lousy!"

So it looks like not even kids were "fooled" by TNM's apparent lack of quality...

[Andrew NDB]

Even if NT:TNM had just lived up to Kevin Eastman's press releases about it being so dark and gritty and "grown up" I think it might have had a chance. I was only like 16 when it came out... hardly like an old man or anything. If something like that had hit and the now-heading-toward-adulthood Turtlemania generation received something like that, a little more grown up, maybe it would have resonated with previous fans.

[Barkworm]

Oh man. I remember seeing a 5 second ad for it when I was 15 and got incredibly excited. Then I saw the full TV-spot and realized it was done by the Power Rangers people, including an actual crossover episode. What a bummer that was.

[Prowler]

It's funny. TNM is considered a bad show by most TMNT fans. And no one misses Venus or considers her canon. You could say TNM was the swan song of Turtlemania, even if it was cooling down a ton by 1993 and TMNT III was the one to technically end it. But TNM could have reignited the spark and... we know how that went.

Yet, no one seems to care about TNM these days. Most of us will say it sucked, sure, but just leave it at it. There's no "hatred" for it like there is for Bay Turtles or Rise, for example. I guess it' because TNM was never that relevant in the first place, which means most casuals don't even remember it. Thus, it's not a "threat" to the TMNT property anymore and stopped being so after it went off air in 1997/1998.

[Andrew NDB]

Yeah, there was no real TMNT around at the time for whose good name NT:TNM could tarnish beyond the Image comic, which was hardly apples to apples. All we had to hope for at the time was a nebulous fourth movie that kept sounding worse and worse with every snippet that would come out about it. That maybe, maybe it wouldn't be nearly as bad as it sounded like.

[Prowler]

Yeah, there was no real TMNT around at the time for whose good name NT:TNM could tarnish beyond the Image comic, which was hardly apples to apples. All we had to hope for at the time was a nebulous fourth movie that kept sounding worse and worse with every snippet that would come out about it. That maybe, maybe it wouldn't be nearly as bad as it sounded like.

The bit about "the Turtles being aliens" or something? I remember the outrage over it at the time.

And, ofc course. Eric Sachs as Shredder.

They, surprisingly, ended up going back on those ideas. I'm still not sure whether it was due to fan backlash...

[Barkworm]

Next Mutation somewhat similar to TMNT 2007, it didn‘t have any impact on anything or anyone.

[ToTheNines]

The bit about "the Turtles being aliens" or something? I remember the outrage over it at the time.

And, ofc course. Eric Sachs as Shredder.

They, surprisingly, ended up going back on those ideas. I'm still not sure whether it was due to fan backlash...

No, way before that. The whole Kirby the 5th turtle thing.

[Prowler]

Next Mutation somewhat similar to TMNT 2007, it didn‘t have any impact on anything or anyone.

I dunno, man. TNM at least is memorable somewhat for being ****** and introducing a female turtle(and now we have Jennika LOL). But 2007? It's not a particularly good movie, but also not a POS of a movie. It's just... dull. I remember the PS2 tie-in Prince of Persia clone video game of it better than the movie itself.

What's worse? being slightly remembered because you sucked, or not being remembered at all because you were just boring?

No, way before that. The whole Kirby the 5th turtle thing.

****ing hell, I have zero recollection of that. I'm even afraid to ask :lol:

[ToTheNines]

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/tmnt/images/1/17/Kirby5.jpg

[frank_one]

Yet, no one seems to care about TNM these days. Most of us will say it sucked, sure, but just leave it at it. There's no "hatred" for it like there is for Bay Turtles or Rise, for example. I guess it' because TNM was never that relevant in the first place, which means most casuals don't even remember it. Thus, it's not a "threat" to the TMNT property anymore and stopped being so after it went off air in 1997/1998.I think the point with The Next Mutation is no one back then was expecting the show to be good, actually no one was expecting it at all. There were no expectations as most of the first generation of fans had already moved on, so when TNM came out to be bad no one really cared. Whatever, the Turtles were dead anyway.
On the other hand, there were great expectations for the Bay movies as it was the first time in decades a new big budget modern Hollywood movie of the Turtles was being made, with famous actors and all. There was so much more at stake and a lot more hype!

[Andrew NDB]

On the other hand, there were great expectations for the Bay movies as it was the first time in decades a new big budget modern Hollywood movie of the Turtles was being made

And the first PG-13 Turtles movie ever, something we could only dream about since 1990. Wasted. There was definitely some concerted hope that it would end up OK, though. And beyond the things they couldn't fix in post (like Hulk, bulletproof Turtles, Splinter ties to anything) 2014 wasn't even that insultingly bad. It's kind of a fascinating Frankenstein of a thing.

[Zog The Magnificent]

I still think it they should have stuck to their guns, and that it would have resulted in a better (but still not great) movie if they had just had Eric Sachs be the Shredder, rather than stapling in a completely unrelated character at the last second. All they would have had to have done was make it clear it was a legacy title, and throw in a line about how he was inspired by an ancient Japanese warlord, Oroku Saki, that he read up on. There's already a precedent for that sort of thing. It still wouldn't have been great, but it would have been a much more cohesive movie.

[Prowler]

I still think it they should have stuck to their guns, and that it would have resulted in a better (but still not great) movie if they had just had Eric Sachs be the Shredder, rather than stapling in a completely unrelated character at the last second. All they would have had to have done was make it clear it was a legacy title, and throw in a line about how he was inspired by an ancient Japanese warlord, Oroku Saki, that he read up on. There's already a precedent for that sort of thing. It still wouldn't have been great, but it would have been a much more cohesive movie.

Maybe, but the fan backlash against Eric Sachs as Shredder was way too strong. Changing a character's nationality or origin is always risky, and a character like Shredder is particularly tied to his own nationality. THE Shredder should always be Oroku Saki. Not some American guy named Eric Sachs.

[ToTheNines]

It’s been 12 years and I still get pissed off just thinking about that lol

[Andrew NDB]

There could've been a way to do that. Like "The Shredder" is this shadowy Baba Yaga-like figure in the New York criminal underworld only whispered about and many assume isn't real. So this rich white guy Erich Sachs assumes the mantle in a less discreet way for himself and own ends... and then the REAL Shredder (Oroku Saki) shows up, makes his intro and makes mincemeat out of Sachs to send a message. Probably taking whatever he wants from what's left of Sachs' business empire. Weapons, tech probably.

That could literally be the opening scene of the movie, right there.

[d_osborn]

I still think it they should have stuck to their guns, and that it would have resulted in a better (but still not great) movie if they had just had Eric Sachs be the Shredder, rather than stapling in a completely unrelated character at the last second. All they would have had to have done was make it clear it was a legacy title, and throw in a line about how he was inspired by an ancient Japanese warlord, Oroku Saki, that he read up on. There's already a precedent for that sort of thing. It still wouldn't have been great, but it would have been a much more cohesive movie.
I'd love to read the original script from when production began. I don't have the quote in front of me, but from memory, one of the TMNT actors said they filmed roughly three different scripts. The original, then the Bay version (once Michael Bay saw the rough cut), and finally the whatever we saw on screens.

The big sequences would still be there. The snow chase or whatever. They were in active previz. I'd love to see the original vision that the director started rolling cameras with.

[Prowler]

It’s been 12 years and I still get pissed off just thinking about that lol

That was when CyberCubed lost his marbles. He kept saying it 5 times a day "SHREDDER AS A WHITE MAN NOOOOOOO!" and even though most people hated the idea of White Shredder as well, they couldn't bear to read Cubed's complaints anymore lol

[Zog The Magnificent]

One time Shredder was an alien, using the exact same line of reasoning: ultimately inspired by the REAl Shredder, an ancient warlord named Oroku Saki. As long as you've got that line of reasoning, you're not actually changing his nationality, you're just having another character take up the mantle. Same with Lady Shredder, same with Raphael, and same with Ch'rell. I still think it could have worked. (Still not great mind you, but at least better).

[Looney Turtles]

90's. It was the 1987 series that kicked off Turtlemania, but it wasn't until the 90's that we started getting all the movies and video games.

[TylerD]

90's. It was the 1987 series that kicked off Turtlemania, but it wasn't until the 90's that we started getting all the movies and video games.

Agreed. I was born in 87 so I didn’t get into the turtles till well into the 90s. Just always sits in my mind as a 90s franchise even though the original mirage comics and cartoon series were in the 80s.