Sonic X - CANCELLED

[ThirdMarioBro]

It's sad but true. Sonic fans have been ripped off.
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By Dennis Day, News Editor
Published February 23, 2004 -- 04:43 pm CDT

Japanese animation studio TMS Entertainment reportedly plans to end production of three television series. Among the list of shows slated for cancellation are Popolocrois and Sonic X, both of which were inspired by videogames. TMS executives cited disappointing ratings and large production budgets as the reason for the cancellations. Insiders have hinted at the possibility of releasing both shows on DVD in the future, although nothing official has been announced. Both Popolocrois and Sonic X are expected to end their production run in late March. For reference, Poplocrois is based on Sony's RPG series of the same name, and Sonic X is based on Sega's blue hedgehog hero.

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This is referring to the Japanese version, (which to any true fan is the only version) but now the series will be capped at 52 episodes in the US as well. What do I think? TMS is insane. They just want to find a more "Japanesish" show that can produced cheaper, and sell cards and figures and junk.
Sonic fans have been screwed, but I did kinda see it coming. At least the original soundtrack is coming out.


All I have to say is.......If they end the series with a pair of glowing red eyes, I'll shoot myself (Sonic fans 18 and up know what I mean :roll: )

[Hyper Metal Sonic]

Man, I ever glad I bought my Sonic and Chris plushies when I did.

[ThirdMarioBro]

I don't have any! :cry: :cry:

[愛]

Sigh...I miss Sonic.

[rayfillet101]

I love sonic, but this cartoon was getting more and more childish. I mean it was so zany and they changed the storyline and everything. Dont get me wrong im a huge sonic fan but this cartoon IMO stunk. I love the comic and the games. Im not surprised about the cancellation either.

[MTN889]

Oh crap wheres the atricle??!??!?!

[Dane E5R]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[mod edit by Machi: Heh, stretching the boards a lil...]

Whoa. My first mod edit.

[Dontebell]

sonic x isn't going to be canncelled,that what i herd from team artail

[Hyper Metal Sonic]

No, that post on Team Artail is just saying that it won't be prematurely cancelled before it hits the 52nd episode.

[PanMan]

no offense to anyone here, but . . . GOOD! :D

i never did like that show. so how many episodes are there going to be and when is the foxbox going to take it off the air?

[ThirdMarioBro]

Grrrrr :x

The US Version sucks, but I love seeing Sonic alongside TMNT.

The info came from here.

http://www.polygonmag.com/news/index.php?id=1743

[ThirdMarioBro]

On a releated topic, here's something that really pisses me off.
---------------
SEGA Arcades Only!!!
> Date Added: 2003-12-11 13:24:51

Sammy President urges SEGA to concentrate on arcade titles and move away from the consumer market…


In an exclusive interview with Bloomberg, Sammy President Hajime Satomi revealed the worst of SEGA fans fears, by urging the Japanese games developer to concentrate on the arcade market.

Having seen their financial year grow beyond all expectations thanks to the strong demand of their arcade titles, it’s clear to see why the recommendation has come from Satomi-san, however to have no SEGA in the consumer market would be worse then the day they pulled out of hardware development.

More worrying is recent comments made by Satomi, that suggest if SEGA doesn’t accept his decisions, he’ll simply increase Sammy’s stake in SEGA to a position where they’re forced to do what the Pachinko manufacturer says.

Certainly it’s a move considered to promote Sammy’s ‘Atomiswave’ arcade units, based around the Dreamcast and NAOMI hardware and utilising JAMMA compatible boards. It’s claimed that these units are extremely cheap to produce, with Satomi-san claiming “It's low cost enough that even a single play at 10 yen a game can turn a profit. We can sell it in third-world countries as well".

We’ll have more news soon.
------------------------------
I don't mind them making more arcade games. Next to Sonic, those have always been these best games, but ONLY ARCADE GAMES IS A LOAD OF S***!

Sammy would make it to where there would be no home ports of the games either. They think they can force people to go to arcades to play their games? Nintendo, Sega, Namco, Konami, combined couldn't save the arcade industry. People are sick of going to arcades when they can play them at home. Sammy is pretty damn arrogant.
If he forces them into only making arcade games......then the video game industry can go to hell. Nintendo and Sega are the only reasons that I play video games.

[Hyper Metal Sonic]

I like Sonic X, but the Japanese Subs mostly, the English Dub is "okay", but the music changes and pointless edits are pretty stupid. (Not to mention some of the voices are iffy)

[Blaze DTGG]

*follows elite's suit*

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO *breathes* OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOO

*falls to her knees sobbing*

why are they taking my knuckles away .. THOSE BASTAGES!!

[lhb412]

Are you sure it was actually cancelled? Most Japanese shows start out saying "Okay, we've got the main story of the series; we'll do it in 52 eppisodes(a whole season)", having a show be picked up for another season is much rarer in Japan. With many animes, if the original show was popular they make a sequal show, like with movies, same charcters, different story, after the first one, or (sometimes) in a completely different continuity then the first one. The sequal series usually features the superhero's getting new powers or they robot pilots getting new robots, ect., ect,...


So I wan't to know if Sonic X was cancelled or just ended naturally.

[Dontebell]

maybe they cancelled it because of the new totally sonic cartoon.

[Kameko]

It's sad but true. Sonic fans have been ripped off.
As lhb412 mentioned, the series was indeed only originally slated for 52 episodes, anyway. I mean, it is kind of disapointing that the series is being cancelled, but it's not terribly surprising.At least the original soundtrack is coming out.Can't wait. ^.^All I have to say is.......If they end the series with a pair of glowing red eyes, I'll shoot myself (Sonic fans 18 and up know what I mean :roll: )Lol, I have to agree with you there. But then again, SatAM's plug was pulled while they were planning on a third season (presumably to wrap everything up - 3 seasons is a hella long run for a cartoon). Like I said, Sonic X was planned to be 52 episodes (approximately two U.S. seasons) in the first place, so I doubt we'll have any cliffhangers. Hopefully they'll wrap things up cleanly, and in a few years, we'll have another series. :P
maybe they cancelled it because of the new totally sonic cartoon.Er, what new Sonic cartoon would that be...? As a highly active member of the Sonic fan community, I'm curious as to where you may have picked this rumor up.

And even if there were to be a new cartoon, it's highly unlikely that the current cartoon would actually be cancelled to make way for it. I can't think of a single instance in any cartoon where the first run of a cartoon series was axed for a new series of the same topic/character.

((BLAZE!! Edit your post, you're stretching the tables something fierce! EDIT: Thank ya! Oh, and one more thing... What's a 'Bastage?')))

[Mars-Chan]

:o They're doing WHAT?!? *hugs her Knucks avvy* They can't!!! I was just getting into it!!

[ZariusTwo]

THANK GOD

This is the worst Sonic cartoon ever, freaking Digimon Tamers rip off (there on Earth), annoying kids, crappy jokes, it pales in comparrison to the one true Sonic cartoon, Sonic SATAM

Accept no substitute

Oh, and "Totally Sonic" is a CHANNEL, not a new cartoon, though I HAVE heard that new episodes of Sonic SATAM will be produced if the channel is sucessful

[raphael90]

TMS? Aren't they the same ones who put out Galaxy High and Mighty Orbots back in the 80's....both shows of which bombed out after only 13 eps. I guess these are two more shows they'll throw in the disappointment pile.

Grrrr...TMS owns the rights to Galaxy High but it will never see DVD release. It's cool these might see DVD release at least. I haven't kept with the Sonic shows though, so I don't know if I'd get around to seeing them.

[Meeko]

No this sucks Although i dont think ive mentoned this i am a sonic fan

Speeking of sonic are there any good sonic sites with message boards?

[Hyper Metal Sonic]

http://tsfmb.sonicfoundation.org

[J Legault]

I heard it wasn't cancelled.

And they only have 6 more episodes until they would show the Sonic Adventure debut episodes.

And the DVDs are coming out this May.

I watched it every Saturday along with Kirby and TMNT.

I just don't think it'll come true. :roll:

[Dane E5R]

THANK GOD

This is the worst Sonic cartoon ever, freaking Digimon Tamers rip off (there on Earth), annoying kids, crappy jokes, it pales in comparrison to the one true Sonic cartoon, Sonic SATAM

Accept no substitute

Oh, and "Totally Sonic" is a CHANNEL, not a new cartoon, though I HAVE heard that new episodes of Sonic SATAM will be produced if the channel is sucessful


...SegaSonic has always taken place on Earth. SatAM was cool, but true Sonic cartoon it ain't.. Because it wasn't true. They made a ton of new characters, and basically a completely different story from the games. What they did to poor Tails can never be justified.

[ThirdMarioBro]

I heard it wasn't cancelled.

And they only have 6 more episodes until they would show the Sonic Adventure debut episodes.

And the DVDs are coming out this May.

I watched it every Saturday along with Kirby and TMNT.

I just don't think it'll come true. :roll:

The Sonic Adventure 1 & 2 episodes were from episode 27-28, and might I say they were done beautifully.

[GK Punk]

Well, this sucks. I was begining to really enjoy that show.
What will happen to poor Amy :(

[Meeko]

http://tsfmb.sonicfoundation.org

Thanks

[Mars-Chan]

Well, this sucks. I was begining to really enjoy that show.
What will happen to poor Amy :(

Alexis better not get a hold of her.... :evilgrin:

[ZariusTwo]

...SegaSonic has always taken place on Earth. SatAM was cool, but true Sonic cartoon it ain't.. Because it wasn't true. They made a ton of new characters, and basically a completely different story from the games. What they did to poor Tails can never be justified.

1. Ugh, the "Segasonic" following, a group more stuck up than MIRAGE...

2. Tails would have been developed more on SATAM if it had not been cancelled.

3. The New Characters and plot elements of Sonic SATAM were so good, they were used in the Archie comics, who quite frankly do a better job than Segasonic.

[ThirdMarioBro]

1. Ugh, the "Segasonic" following, a group more stuck up than MIRAGE...


:lol: :lol:
SatAM is the basis for everything that Sonic is today. I firmly believe that he would suck beond belief without it. I'd give anything to get the series back, but Sonic X was wonderful too. Maybe we'll get another series....
If they cancell F-Zero Falcon Densetsu, I'll scream.

[Stone Ill]

Woohoo! That's one less anime!

[Dane E5R]

1. Ugh, the "Segasonic" following, a group more stuck up than MIRAGE...

2. Tails would have been developed more on SATAM if it had not been cancelled.

3. The New Characters and plot elements of Sonic SATAM were so good, they were used in the Archie comics, who quite frankly do a better job than Segasonic.

Dude, I said SatAM was cool.. It just isn't "true" Sonic. You've got no reason to lash out and call anyone stuck-up. Man. If that isn't the pot calling the kettle black.
What in God's name makes you think they would have developed him further in season 3 if they didn't do it after 2 seasons?
..And the Archie comics suck. Sally is a skank, and the art is 2nd rate.

[ZariusTwo]

1. Ugh, the "Segasonic" following, a group more stuck up than MIRAGE...

2. Tails would have been developed more on SATAM if it had not been cancelled.

3. The New Characters and plot elements of Sonic SATAM were so good, they were used in the Archie comics, who quite frankly do a better job than Segasonic.

Dude, I said SatAM was cool.. It just isn't "true" Sonic. You've got no reason to lash out and call anyone stuck-up. Man. If that isn't the pot calling the kettle black.
What in God's name makes you think they would have developed him further in season 3 if they didn't do it after 2 seasons?
..And the Archie comics suck. Sally is a skank, and the art is 2nd rate.

Don't get me wrong, some of those people are alright, but some continue to force the "fact" that Sonic is from Earth too forcibly, it's a matter of preference, they need to accept that

Ben Hurst HIMSELF said Tails would have been developed if the series had continued

And the Archie Comics OWN the games, PERIOD,you've never seen Sonic framed for Amy's murder have you? you've never seen Sonic knighted, and then had his rank stripped for insuborbination, you've never Sonic Adventure given a GOOD adaptation.

[host_punktmy]

Sonic X cancelled? Wo surprise surprise. Didn't see that coming. Just snuck up around the corner and bit me in the..

[ZariusTwo]

1. Ugh, the "Segasonic" following, a group more stuck up than MIRAGE...


:lol: :lol:
SatAM is the basis for everything that Sonic is today. I firmly believe that he would suck beond belief without it. I'd give anything to get the series back, but Sonic X was wonderful too. Maybe we'll get another series....
If they cancell F-Zero Falcon Densetsu, I'll scream.

I hav'nt seen F-Zero yet, screen capture anyone?

[Dr. Doom]

Meh..........wasn't THAT great of a show.....but it was still nice to have some form of Sonic still on TV...

[ThirdMarioBro]

1. Ugh, the "Segasonic" following, a group more stuck up than MIRAGE...


:lol: :lol:
SatAM is the basis for everything that Sonic is today. I firmly believe that he would suck beond belief without it. I'd give anything to get the series back, but Sonic X was wonderful too. Maybe we'll get another series....
If they cancell F-Zero Falcon Densetsu, I'll scream.

I hav'nt seen F-Zero yet, screen capture anyone?

I know where to get the ep.'s if you know what I mean :roll:

PM me, and I'll tell you.

[Kameko]

Mondo apologies for the monster post, but there's just too much that's been said since I was last on that I have to respond to. If you can't stand to read the whole thing, at least scan it for one of your quotes, in case I replied to something you said.


This is the worst Sonic cartoon ever, freaking Digimon Tamers rip off (there on Earth), annoying kids, crappy jokes, it pales in comparrison to the one true Sonic cartoon, Sonic SATAM

Accept no substitute

Oh, and "Totally Sonic" is a CHANNEL, not a new cartoon, though I HAVE heard that new episodes of Sonic SATAM will be produced if the channel is sucessful
The jokes aren't nearly as bad in the original version - they're actually funny. And just the fact that they're on earth hardly means that they're ripping off (or even thinking of) Digimon (which I don't much like, btw).

I grant you, I could have lived without the kids myself, but they've grown on me, especially Chris (Hey, I think it's cute the way he's bonded with and looks up to Sonic). And if you've ever seen Episode 26 of Sonic X in the original Japanese (I actually cried, and I've only cried during one other episode of one other cartoon - the 90's Superman), you probably wouldn't think it paled so badly in comparison to SatAM (And need I remind you of the bad jokes in that series, as much as I love it? And what about the two split episodes (two stories in one episode)? If those weren't pointless, I don't know what is.)

Hmmm... I've never heard of a channel called "Totally Sonic". Must be a UK thing? As for the SatAM rumour... I highly doubt it, but I'll look into it. And Dontebell, wheverever you went, you still haven't told me where you heard your rumour.I heard it wasn't cancelled.

And they only have 6 more episodes until they would show the Sonic Adventure debut episodesHate to break it two you, but the version you've been watching is the (crappy) English dub of the original Japanese series, which is already long past both Sonic Adventure storylines, as well as the Sonic Battle storyline (from what I understand - due to my main sources being down for the count, I've been unable to download episodes since before Christmas - just after Shadow finally appeared.) If the Japanese series is being capped at the already planned 52 episodes, than the American version will naturally end at 52 as well....SegaSonic has always taken place on Earth. SatAM was cool, but true Sonic cartoon it ain't.. Because it wasn't true. They made a ton of new characters, and basically a completely different story from the games. What they did to poor Tails can never be justified.Is that you're final answer? Than I'm afraid you've just lost the game, my friend. From his debut game, SegaSonic has always taken place on Mobius. (See the manuals for any of the games - you can probably find them online somewhere) To my knowledge, the only games where they are on Earth are during the Adventure series (1&2) - and possibly Heroes and Battle. However, from all appearances, this planet is actually a fused Earth/Mobius. (Note also that this 'Earth' is not actually our Earth - Sonic X refers to it as an 'Earth-like planet')

I will grant you that SatAM is nowhere near as true to SegaSonic as Sonic X is, but I still consider is a true 'Sonic' cartoon - just an alternate universe, if you will. Sorta like fanfics, only this is official.The Sonic Adventure 1 & 2 episodes were from episode 27-28, and might I say they were done beautifully.Uh, Third, you watchin' the same series I am? Or have you not been following the Japanese version?

The Adventure 1&2 storylines run from Episode 27 through Episode 38. The Heroes storyline is briefly referred to with episode 39 and possibly 40&41 (I haven't seen them for myself yet (see above)). Sonic Battle runs from episode 42-46.

Incidentally, there have been rumours of a sequel. But only rumours - nothing is known for sure just yet.

You can find a more detailed episode guide here (http://www.tvtome.com/tvtome/servlet/EpisodeGuideSummary/showid-18557/season-1).1. Ugh, the "Segasonic" following, a group more stuck up than MIRAGE...;P Like I said, I like the SatAM/Archie concepts and the SegaSonic storyline.2. Tails would have been developed more on SATAM if it had not been cancelled. What in God's name makes you think they would have developed him further in season 3 if they didn't do it after 2 seasons?
Sorry, Elite, but Zarius is right - Tails was supposed to have a bigger part and a more Sega-ish relationship with Sonic in season 3 which had already been planned by the time the series was axed...And the Archie comics suck. Sally is a skank, and the art is 2nd rate.I've unfortunately never been able to read very many of the Archie comics. I've found a pretty good collection of the Fleetway (UK) comics online, but not many Archie. If anyone knows of a site that has scans of the issues (even some of the issues), please let me know.

Incidentally, there is a site where some die-hard fans have continued that Egmont Fleetway storyline themselves, picking up from where it was cancelled. I highly recommend it: Sonic The Comic - Online! (http://www.drx.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/sonic/stc/)



Oh and one more thing: I hate TMS. Bloody Butchers.

[ThirdMarioBro]

Mondo apologies for the monster post, but there's just too much that's been said since I was last on that I have to respond to. If you can't stand to read the whole thing, at least scan it for one of your quotes, in case I replied to something you said.


This is the worst Sonic cartoon ever, freaking Digimon Tamers rip off (there on Earth), annoying kids, crappy jokes, it pales in comparrison to the one true Sonic cartoon, Sonic SATAM

Accept no substitute

Oh, and "Totally Sonic" is a CHANNEL, not a new cartoon, though I HAVE heard that new episodes of Sonic SATAM will be produced if the channel is sucessful
The jokes aren't nearly as bad in the original version - they're actually funny. And just the fact that they're on earth hardly means that they're ripping off (or even thinking of) Digimon (which I don't much like, btw).

I grant you, I could have lived without the kids myself, but they've grown on me, especially Chris (Hey, I think it's cute the way he's bonded with and looks up to Sonic). And if you've ever seen Episode 26 of Sonic X in the original Japanese (I actually cried, and I've only cried during one other episode of one other cartoon - the 90's Superman), you probably wouldn't think it paled so badly in comparison to SatAM (And need I remind you of the bad jokes in that series, as much as I love it? And what about the two split episodes (two stories in one episode)? If those weren't pointless, I don't know what is.)

Hmmm... I've never heard of a channel called "Totally Sonic". Must be a UK thing? As for the SatAM rumour... I highly doubt it, but I'll look into it. And Dontebell, wheverever you went, you still haven't told me where you heard your rumour.I heard it wasn't cancelled.

And they only have 6 more episodes until they would show the Sonic Adventure debut episodesHate to break it two you, but the version you've been watching is the (crappy) English dub of the original Japanese series, which is already long past both Sonic Adventure storylines, as well as the Sonic Battle storyline (from what I understand - due to my main sources being down for the count, I've been unable to download episodes since before Christmas - just after Shadow finally appeared.) If the Japanese series is being capped at the already planned 52 episodes, than the American version will naturally end at 52 as well....SegaSonic has always taken place on Earth. SatAM was cool, but true Sonic cartoon it ain't.. Because it wasn't true. They made a ton of new characters, and basically a completely different story from the games. What they did to poor Tails can never be justified.Is that you're final answer? Than I'm afraid you've just lost the game, my friend. From his debut game, SegaSonic has always taken place on Mobius. (See the manuals for any of the games - you can probably find them online somewhere) To my knowledge, the only games where they are on Earth are during the Adventure series (1&2) - and possibly Heroes and Battle. However, from all appearances, this planet is actually a fused Earth/Mobius. (Note also that this 'Earth' is not actually our Earth - Sonic X refers to it as an 'Earth-like planet')

I will grant you that SatAM is nowhere near as true to SegaSonic as Sonic X is, but I still consider is a true 'Sonic' cartoon - just an alternate universe, if you will. Sorta like fanfics, only this is official.The Sonic Adventure 1 & 2 episodes were from episode 27-28, and might I say they were done beautifully.Uh, Third, you watchin' the same series I am? Or have you not been following the Japanese version?

The Adventure 1&2 storylines run from Episode 27 through Episode 38. The Heroes storyline is briefly referred to with episode 39 and possibly 40&41 (I haven't seen them for myself yet (see above)). Sonic Battle runs from episode 42-46.

Incidentally, there have been rumours of a sequel. But only rumours - nothing is known for sure just yet.

You can find a more detailed episode guide here (http://www.tvtome.com/tvtome/servlet/EpisodeGuideSummary/showid-18557/season-1).1. Ugh, the "Segasonic" following, a group more stuck up than MIRAGE...;P Like I said, I like the SatAM/Archie concepts and the SegaSonic storyline.2. Tails would have been developed more on SATAM if it had not been cancelled. What in God's name makes you think they would have developed him further in season 3 if they didn't do it after 2 seasons?
Sorry, Elite, but Zarius is right - Tails was supposed to have a bigger part and a more Sega-ish relationship with Sonic in season 3 which had already been planned by the time the series was axed...And the Archie comics suck. Sally is a skank, and the art is 2nd rate.I've unfortunately never been able to read very many of the Archie comics. I've found a pretty good collection of the Fleetway (UK) comics online, but not many Archie. If anyone knows of a site that has scans of the issues (even some of the issues), please let me know.

Incidentally, there is a site where some die-hard fans have continued that Egmont Fleetway storyline themselves, picking up from where it was cancelled. I highly recommend it: Sonic The Comic - Online! (http://www.drx.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/sonic/stc/)



Oh and one more thing: I hate TMS. Bloody Butchers.

ditto, ditto, and ditto to everything Kameko just said. :D :D

[Hannah]

What? CANCELLED? Nuuu! Sonic! This sucks! ;-;

[ZariusTwo]

Hmmm... I've never heard of a channel called "Totally Sonic". Must be a UK thing? As for the SatAM rumour... I highly doubt it, but I'll look into it. And Dontebell, wheverever you went, you still haven't told me where you heard your rumour.

"Totally Sonic" is a channel currently attempting to be produced by a team of hardcore SATAM fans, the money is there, it's simply the matter of gaining the RIGHTS, the channel will show every Sonic cartoon (including the dire AOSTH and Sonic Underground) and produce new SATAM episodes if it's a success.

The Archie Comics I STRONGLY recommend, they made Sonic Adventure look like DYNAMITE with thier adaptation, not to mention they had Sonic framed for the murder of Princess Sally and had Robotonik NUKE several parts of Mobius.

Pure classic, and I'd also like to tell every American Archie fan to read the U.K Comics, if there is ever a site contianing old issues, Fleetway was equally good, and had it's own great characters, such as Dr. Zachery, (evil Echidnan scientest) and Zero the Cybernik, a Squirrel forever trapped in a Badnick Mecha body.

[raphael90]

Is there a site where you can read some of the Sonic comics online? I've kinda wanted to read 'em for a while just never got around to looking for them.