The Technodrome Forums - Raphael’s A Jerk

The Technodrome Forums (http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/index.php)

- 4Kids TMNT Cartoon Discussion (http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/forumdisplay.php?f=11)

- - Raphael’s A Jerk (http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showthread.php?t=65255)

Raphael’s A Jerk

At one point in the series, Raphael actually tried to murder Mikey in a fit of rage:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyKIrZ1E8kU

Yes, I’m aware that this happened in the Mirage comics too. 2k3 TMNT is after all the most faithful adaptation. But at least they were best friends in the original comics. In the show, Raph treated Mikey more like a nuisance.

Yes, Mikey was getting on his nerves, but that’s what little brothers do: annoy their older brothers. They grew up together; Raph should be used to Mikey’s antics by now.

Yes, Raph does have anger issues. Still, that is no excuse for trying to bash your brother’s skull in with a pipe!

“Well, he apologized for it later.” Yeah, but did he really treat Mikey any better during the rest of the series?

During the Nexus tournament, he seemed way too eager to “stab” Mikey with his sais:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_ByaNGrVOs

Well, what do you guys think? Is Raph really a jerk? Or did Mikey truly deserve it?

I've seen your criticisms of your show and to be honest, they seem really selective and you could apply many of them to almost any other iteration. I really don't get why think Raph was a substantially less forgivable character in this show, as opposed to the 90's movies or the 2012 cartoon where he behaved in pretty much the same way.

So let's start off with the criticisms you made of this particular iteration on their own. When it comes to the Casey introduction episode, he doesn't just apologise for it by the end, he immediately regrets it and works through it. This is arguably about as bad as it gets, beyond that it is primarily just Raph calling him out for being idiot, which he is. The example with the Battle Nexus tournament also ignores the context, Raph is aware that there are safety precautions in place that prevents grave injuries by teleportating the would be victim away, in fact it seems to be the general rule that the winner is the one who would deliver a finishing blow of that kind. If he wanted to win, he would need to "stab" Mike, which wouldn't hurt him anyway. I'm not going to go through the entire 150+ episode show just to check the "Bullying-Brotherly Love" ratio, but I'm pretty sure the show doesn't portray Raph and Mike's relationship in a wholly negative light.

As for in comparison to other iterations, the pipe moment happens in both the comics and the 2012 series, though the latter replaced Mike with Leo. Both of these other versions of the story play out in a very similar manner, so I don't really see why the 2003 version would be worse. In fact, it is arguable that Raph behavior is the worst in the 2012 version, since that is the only version of this story where he doesn't immediately regret what he did. Even more than that, he straight up denies that there is even a problem with him, as he actually shifts the blame onto his brothers. I'm not even sure that episode has him apologise or even openly acknowledge what he did was wrong, I'll edit this later when I've made sure.
Edit: Alright, he barely stopped himself from stabbing Casey in the face because he wondered if they were right and he did apologise to Leo, albeit very reluctantly and as quietly as he could, not to mention that he pretty much retracted his apology and went back to blaming his brothers right away. So I'm not sure it really counts if he doesn't really mean it in the first place and goes back into denial about his problems.

So yeah, I don't really see why 2003 Raph is more of a jerk than any other iteration of the character. When it comes to what we can directly compare, 2012 Raph does seem like he's even less likable.

Sure, sometimes, but he's not the sort to sugarcoat things, so it's unsurprising that he can come off that way now and then.

Quote:

Originally Posted by neatoman (Post 1939977)

As for in comparison to other iterations, the pipe moment happens in both the comics and the 2012 series, though the latter replaced Mike with Leo.

Yeah, but in the 2012 series, that wasn’t attempted murder; that was just Raph elbowing then punching Leo which didn’t even knock him out. After that, he didn’t pin Leo to the ground and try to stab him with his sai. He immediately backed off.

Even in the 2007 movie, during the rooftop battle, Raph showed more restraint when he had the upper hand, and you know just how angry and bitter he was toward Leo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cowabung-Gal (Post 1939985)

Yeah, but that wasn’t attempted murder; that was just Raph elbowing then punching Leo which didn’t even knock him out. After that, he didn’t pin Leo to the ground and try to stab him with his sai. He immediately backed off.

Even in the 2007 movie, during the rooftop battle, Raph showed more restraint when he had the upper hand, and you knew just how angry and bitter he was toward Leo.

That is still really selective.

We can clearly see a stab attempt at the start of this and he uses his elbow because of a restraint by Leo, not because he is showing restrain of his own. Then there is a really weird cut from the elbow thing to a punch, as if the censors cut something they felt went too far. Then of course he does in fact try to stab Casey in the face later on in the episode, which could in fact qualify as "attempted murder".

In fact, for further comparison, 2003 Raph never manages to hurt Mike after the sparring is over and is restrained by Leo before he ever gets a chance to swing the pipe, making it a bit unclear if actually would have stopped himself or not. Leo and 2012 Raph's sparring session has clearly been over for about ten seconds when he attacks. The former is a more clear example of "spur of the moment" while the latter does seem more intentional. When it comes to the "attempted murders" I might add here that that a blow from a pipe (and to be clear, it's not that obvious where he was aiming) is not a guaranteed kill blow, while stabbing someone in the face would be. So it's not even clear if 2003 Raph attempted to kill Mike in that moment, but 2012 Raph was clearly intending to kill Casey before stopping himself because that would have been the outcome if he didn't.

But even so, even if these details didn't matter, at it's core there is still a major difference here: 2003 Raph did acknowledge what he did was wrong from the start and clearly meant it when he apologised, 2012 Raph was in denial about the problem, didn't seem to mean it when he apologised, went back into denial and never attempted to make a sincere apology afterwards.

Hell, speaking of the apology, let's analyse the details around that too. 2003 Raph barely hesitates to apologise for actions, he tells it clearly and straighforward to all of his brothers and when Leo teases him for it, he brushes it off and continues. 2012 Raph was very reluctant to apologise, doesn't want Don and Mike to hear it, when teased afterwards he takes it as an insult, lashes out and goes back into denial. That is kind of a big difference, wouldn't you say?

Quote:

Originally Posted by neatoman (Post 1939989)

Then of course he does in fact try to stab Casey in the face later on in the episode, which could in fact qualify as "attempted murder".

In fact, for further comparison, 2003 Raph never manages to hurt Mike after the sparring is over and is restrained by Leo before he ever gets a chance to swing the pipe, making it a bit unclear if actually would have stopped himself or not. Leo and 2012 Raph's sparring session has clearly been over for about ten seconds when he attacks. The former is a more clear example of "spur of the moment" while the latter does seem more intentional. When it comes to the "attempted murders" I might add here that that a blow from a pipe (and to be clear, it's not that obvious where he was aiming) is not a guaranteed kill blow, while stabbing someone in the face would be. So it's not even clear if 2003 Raph attempted to kill Mike in that moment, but 2012 Raph was clearly intending to kill Casey before stopping himself because that would have been the outcome if he didn't.

But even so, even if these details didn't matter, at it's core there is still a major difference here: 2003 Raph did acknowledge what he did was wrong from the start and clearly meant it when he apologised, 2012 Raph was in denial about the problem, didn't seem to mean it when he apologised, went back into denial and never attempted to make a sincere apology afterwards.

Hell, speaking of the apology, let's analyse the details around that too. 2003 Raph barely hesitates to apologise for actions, he tells it clearly and straighforward to all of his brothers and when Leo teases him for it, he brushes it off and continues. 2012 Raph was very reluctant to apologise, doesn't want Don and Mike to hear it, when teased afterwards he takes it as an insult, lashes out and goes back into denial. That is kind of a big difference, wouldn't you say?

Here’s the thing: 2003 Raph stopped because he was held back by Leo. Yes, he wanted to hurt Mikey, badly. That ominous close-up of his narrowed eyes says it all. If Leo hadn’t stopped him in time, he could’ve killed Mikey. Would he have deeply regretted it afterwards? Of course, that’s his little brother. Blind rage makes us do horrible things, even to the ones we love. And yes, a blow to the head with a pipe can in fact kill you if it’s hard enough, and considering that Raph was too mad to even think straight, he could’ve used all his strength and bashed Mikey’s skull in.

2012 Raph stopped himself from stabbing Casey.

2007 Raph showed restraint during the rooftop battle.

2003 Raph only stopped because of Leo.

Yes, he apologized to Mikey, and if he had since tried to be more patient with him and treated him better, I would’ve liked him a whole lot better and let that one incident go. But he still continued to be a bully toward him.

As much as 2012 Raph picked on Mikey, his relationship with him got better as the series progressed, and you can definitely tell that they love each other very much. In fact, their brotherly love is what got me into the series and ultimately into the TMNT fandom. I grew up watching 2003 TMNT and I hated it, mostly because of Raph’s attitude and constant bullying. When I first watched “New Friend, Old Enemy”, which was actually my very first 2012 episode, I thought for sure that Raph would be as much as a bully to Mikey as he was in the 2003 series. But at the end, when he actually comforted Mikey and even patted him on the head, I thought, “Huh, this is different. I think I’ll give this series another chance.” So I watched more episodes, and after “New Girl In Town”, I officially became a fan.

And to answer your last question, again, 2003 Raph almost killed Mikey so yes he definitely has to apologize. All 2012 Raph did was knock Leo a little too hard. He grew up a lot since then and became a better brother to Mikey, Donnie, and Leo, which is more than I can say about 2003 Raph.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cowabung-Gal (Post 1940017)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cowabung-Gal (Post 1940017)

Yes, he apologized to Mikey, and if he had since tried to be more patient with him and treated him better, I would’ve liked him a whole lot better and let that one incident go. But he still continued to be a bully toward him.

As much as 2012 Raph picked on Mikey, his relationship with him got better as the series progressed, and you can definitely tell that they love each other very much. In fact, their brotherly love is what got me into the series and ultimately into the TMNT fandom. I grew up watching 2003 TMNT and I hated it, mostly because of Raph’s attitude and constant bullying. When I first watched “New Friend, Old Enemy”, which was actually my very first 2012 episode, I thought for sure that Raph would be as much as a bully to Mikey as he was in the 2003 series. But at the end, when he actually comforted Mikey and even patted him on the head, I thought, “Huh, this is different. I think I’ll give this series another chance.” So I watched more episodes, and after “New Girl In Town”, I officially became a fan.

Trying to use consistency between episodes of the 2012 as a defense of that particular series is a bit bizarre to me, mostly because I know the 2012 show was really bad at keeping consistency. I think my go to example of the show being incapable of keeping it's own lore and characters straight is the fact that it gave two polar opposite explanations of the Kraang/Utrom relationship, first the Utroms were introduced as "Kraang who had broken away from the hivemind" and later on we were told that the Kraang were "Utroms who had been brainwashed into a hivemind", which you figure would be something the writers would have settled on before the introduction of the Utroms but they seemingly didn't.

As for consistency of the characters behavior, a problem we can see here is that the 2012 show already had a "Raph anger problems" episode in which he learned to calm down and let his anger control him, season 1 episode 3. Come this episode, season 2 episode 8, he is not only back to being controlled by his anger but is also in denial of it. If anything that would show regression in his character, not progression. And yes, he does still show some "bullying" tendencies from start to end as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cowabung-Gal (Post 1940017)

And to answer your last question, again, 2003 Raph almost killed Mikey so yes he definitely has to apologize. All 2012 Raph did was knock Leo a little too hard. He grew up a lot since then and became a better brother to Mikey, Donnie, and Leo, which is more than I can say about 2003 Raph.

Again, he didn't "almost" kill Mikey, the scene is too vague about what he would have done if Leo wasn't there and the "almost" is still far less "almost" than what the 2012 Raph "almost" did to Casey. And you are also ignoring several key aspects here. You're not really acknowledging that 2012 Raph is in denial about his problems and by the end of the episode, still was.

You are also seemingly isolating the Mike-Raph relationship and using that as the excuse to claim 2003 Raph is far more of a "bullying jerk" than 2012 Raph and a bad brother in general. This ignores the fact that 2003 Raph has several episodes of him being concerned for his brothers, most notably Tales of Leo, Monster Hunter, Across the Universe, I Monster, Adventures in Turtle Sitting and Good Genes. And yes, those may be about him showing concern for Don, Leo or the brothers in general and not Mike but they are still examples of him showing that he cares about his brothers. And while I can't immediately think of a moment where he does show concern or love for Mike in particular, the show is still over 150 episodes long so I doubt it's completely devoid of such a moment. Even it turns out there aren't any such moments, it still wouldn't undermine the parts where he is indeed shown to care for other members of his family or his family in general.

We can also use this isolating logic to prove almost any character is a total jerk since all it takes is ignoring nuance and shifting focus onto a singular element. So for example, 2012 Donatello is shown to constantly lose his temper at Mike and yells at him all the time, even at a moment when did something useful because he couldn't do it again. And because I can't really think of that many moments in which he is nice to Mike, that means I can conclude he is a jerk and a bad brother. Then in comparison, I can point out that while 2003 Don shows annoyance with Mike, he rarely lashes out at him and does nice things to him like building that battle van he wanted. This means I can then conclude that 2003 Don is a far more likable than 2012 Don, even though they generally exhibit the same traits and I only focused on one particular difference in character dynamic. Do you what the problem with making this kind of analysis is?

The differences between these iterations don't come across as being as substantial as you are making them out to be. You might want to re-examine both shows here and not focus on one particular element, you might be surprised.
Edit: It struck me that I might need to point out that I believe there is a difference in examining details when it comes to directly comparable moments, such as the case of both shows having an adaptation of the Raphael Micro, and clearing up broad series wide characterization of characters. One can very easily be examined to determine if there is indeed a substantial difference between the iterations of the characters when put into similar situations, the other can be a bit trickier but trying to use isolated aspects to make a broad judgement about the character as a whole instead of that aspect clearly isn't fair to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by neatoman (Post 1940043)

I already covered the facts that we can't really see where he is aiming and that he never even gets the chance to swing it (i.e, the chance to even show restraint in the first). 2012 Raph is very clearly going for Casey's face and stops himself at the very last moment. That is a huge difference.

So if the scene had indeed shown Raph almost bashing Mike's head in with the pipe (which again, that's not what it did) but without Leo intervening and Raph stopping himself at the very last moment instead, then these two scenes would have been almost identical in terms of what could have happened. So if that is how it happened instead, we would have to assume that it would have painted Raph in a better light if we follow the excuse your making for his 2012 and 2007 counterparts. Which I don't really accept because 2012 instance is ultimately the far less ambiguous situation.

Edit: I might also need to establish here that the moment of Raph trying to beat Mike with a pipe is nearly identical in the comic, the only differences being that Raph grabbed a wrench, it taking place in April's basement and (most importantly) Raph actually managing to swing it before Leo stopped him. So trying to say that is somehow better when the one important difference is actually getting the chance to swing the hard metal object, the lack of which is what you are using as a justification for why the 2012 is better than the 2003 depiction, is a bit bizarre.

Trying to use consistency between episodes of the 2012 as a defense of that particular series is a bit bizarre to me, mostly because I know the 2012 show was really bad at keeping consistency. I think my go to example of the show being incapable of keeping it's own lore and characters straight is the fact that it gave two polar opposite explanations of the Kraang/Utrom relationship, first the Utroms were introduced as "Kraang who had broken away from the hivemind" and later on we were told that the Kraang were "Utroms who had been brainwashed into a hivemind", which you figure would be something the writers would have settled on before the introduction of the Utroms but they seemingly didn't.

As for consistency of the characters behavior, a problem we can see here is that the 2012 show already had a "Raph anger problems" episode in which he learned to calm down and let his anger control him, season 1 episode 3. Come this episode, season 2 episode 8, he is not only back to being controlled by his anger but is also in denial of it. If anything that would show regression in his character, not progression. And yes, he does still show some "bullying" tendencies from start to end as well.

Again, he didn't "almost" kill Mikey, the scene is too vague about what he would have done if Leo wasn't there and the "almost" is still far less "almost" than what the 2012 Raph "almost" did to Casey. And you are also ignoring several key aspects here. You're not really acknowledging that 2012 Raph is in denial about his problems and by the end of the episode, still was.

You are also seemingly isolating the Mike-Raph relationship and using that as the excuse to claim 2003 Raph is far more of a "bullying jerk" than 2012 Raph and a bad brother in general. This ignores the fact that 2003 Raph has several episodes of him being concerned for his brothers, most notably Tales of Leo, Monster Hunter, Across the Universe, I Monster, Adventures in Turtle Sitting and Good Genes. And yes, those may be about him showing concern for Don, Leo or the brothers in general and not Mike but they are still examples of him showing that he cares about his brothers. And while I can't immediately think of a moment where he does show concern or love for Mike in particular, the show is still over 150 episodes long so I doubt it's completely devoid of such a moment. Even it turns out there aren't any such moments, it still wouldn't undermine the parts where he is indeed shown to care for other members of his family or his family in general.

We can also use this isolating logic to prove almost any character is a total jerk since all it takes is ignoring nuance and shifting focus onto a singular element. So for example, 2012 Donatello is shown to constantly lose his temper at Mike and yells at him all the time, even at a moment when did something useful because he couldn't do it again. And because I can't really think of that many moments in which he is nice to Mike, that means I can conclude he is a jerk and a bad brother. Then in comparison, I can point out that while 2003 Don shows annoyance with Mike, he rarely lashes out at him and does nice things to him like building that battle van he wanted. This means I can then conclude that 2003 Don is a far more likable than 2012 Don, even though they generally exhibit the same traits and I only focused on one particular difference in character dynamic. Do you what the problem with making this kind of analysis is?

The differences between these iterations don't come across as being as substantial as you are making them out to be. You might want to re-examine both shows here and not focus on one particular element, you might be surprised.
Edit: It struck me that I might need to point out that I believe there is a difference in examining details when it comes to directly comparable moments, such as the case of both shows having an adaptation of the Raphael Micro, and clearing up broad series wide characterization of characters. One can very easily be examined to determine if there is indeed a substantial difference between the iterations of the characters when put into similar situations, the other can be a bit trickier but trying to use isolated aspects to make a broad judgement about the character as a whole instead of that aspect clearly isn't fair to me.

You keep going back to the Casey example in the 2012 show, but don’t forget: Casey was a total stranger to Raph at that moment, not a family member or even a friend, so that doesn’t even count.

And when you pin someone to the ground like Raph did to Mikey and raise a pipe, where are you most likely gonna strike? The arm? The chest? No, you are most likely gonna go for the head, especially if you’re as angry and psychotic as Raph was at the time.

You’re right about one detail: since Leo held Raph back, we’ll never truly know whether Raph would’ve stopped himself or not.

And I’ve noticed that although this a thread that is strictly about 2k3 Raph and his status as a jerk, we both keep referring to the other versions as though this were a contest to see which version is the jerkiest. But we really do need to stop because we’re running around in circles.

So, without using any other TMNT incarnation as an example or source, just answer me this: is 2k3 Raph a jerk, not a jerk, or sometimes a jerk? And feel free to explain why you feel that way.

I wouldn't say 2003 raph is but 2012 definitely is

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cowabung-Gal (Post 1940071)

You keep going back to the Casey example in the 2012 show, but don’t forget: Casey was a total stranger to Raph at that moment, not a family member or even a friend, so that doesn’t even count.

I keep bringing it because your justification for condemning the Raph/Mike thing in the 2003 show is that you consider it attempted murder. Now trying to strike someone who is knocked down, pinned down and not making an obvious attempt to fight back by that point is indeed wrong and it applies to both scenarios. The thing is, it's not more wrong because you know the person, it is just wrong regardless of what your relationship is, be it strangers or brothers. The reason I can say it's more wrong in the 2012 show has nothing to do with personal relationships, I consider that irrelevant in regards to the moral question, it's because it is far less ambiguous in regards to what would have happened otherwise.

That's the key difference, I don't know if 2003 Raph tried to kill Mike but I can clearly tell 2012 Raph tried to kill Casey. The important thing isn't the previous relationship, it's the attempt to kill someone defenseless, which is what's considered wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cowabung-Gal (Post 1940071)

And when you pin someone to the ground like Raph did to Mikey and raise a pipe, where are you most likely gonna strike? The arm? The chest? No, you are most likely gonna go for the head, especially if you’re as angry and psychotic as Raph was at the time.

You’re right about one detail: since Leo held Raph back, we’ll never truly know whether Raph would’ve stopped himself or not.

Technically Mike is trying to defend himself with his arms, so even if Raph tried to go for the head he'd still hit the arms. Maybe he's more likely to go for the head but I maintain that we can't know for sure since the angles never make it clear.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cowabung-Gal (Post 1940071)

And I’ve noticed that although this a thread that is strictly about 2k3 Raph and his status as a jerk, we both keep referring to the other versions as though this were a contest to see which version is the jerkiest. But we really do need to stop because we’re running around in circles.

So, without using any other TMNT incarnation as an example or source, just answer me this: is 2k3 Raph a jerk, not a jerk, or sometimes a jerk? And feel free to explain why you feel that way.

I keep bringing it up because I know the moment you used to justify him being a jerk was in the comics and played out in an almost identical way, which you make a weird justification for despite there barely being any differences. And I also know that somewhat looser but still fairly recognisable adaptation of the same story is in the 2012 show, one that you've previously defended in part because you believe it depicts in a more agreeable light. The problem is that I just don't see how anything Raph in the 2003 show is that much different what he's like in Mirage, Archie, the 90's movies, the 2007 movie, the 2012 cartoon or the IDW comics. So that's why I think the comparison is apt, I just don't see why this version is worthy of any particular scorn that most others aren't.

Anyway, would I consider him a jerk in this show regardless of how he compares to other iterations of the character? Well I suppose this is the answer:

I think he's grumpy, has a bit of a short fuse and generally isn't afraid to express his annoyance. It is true that he tends to call Mike an idiot or mock him in some other sense, though this is usually in response to him doing something foolish, negligent or otherwise annoying to which an insult may be a natural response. An attempt to harm Mike only happened once as far as I can remember and it is something he obviously felt shame over as soon as he came to his senses. Beyond that it mostly appears to be teasing and scolding, which I don't believe constitutes bad behavior since he isn't trying to break Mike's confidence or otherwise make him feel bad. Most of the things he goes after Mike for are things the rest of the family consider to be a problem with Mike, although it is true that he may act in a harsher way about it. He also shows some irritation that Leo has surpassed him but this mainly comes across like an inferiority complex and not resentment, while it creates tension between the two of them, it does mean they have a primarily negative relationship. When Leo needed help forging new swords, he was indeed there to support him. His relationship with other characters seems to be generally positive as well, he seems to get along with Don, Splinter, April and Casey quite well. He also doesn't seem to have much of a problem with strangers either, he was able to have a very civil conversation with that blind old lady and despite barely knowing her, still decided to help her out financially when he got the chance to. He also didn't have any problem with helping that kid he just met getting his mom back. In neither of these cases he got any sort of tangible reward or advantage, he just did them because he considered it to be the right thing to do. As for the people he knows personally, he has been shown to go out of his way to help them out on numerous occasions, that doesn't exactly seem hard to figure out but it still shows that he values them.

In short, he's generally not super pleasant but he doesn't seem like actually tries to antagonise anyone he knows, he seems like he typically wants to maintain a positive relationship with the people around him despite getting into disagreements with them. And ultimately does too many noble things to really qualify as a bad person, and none of the bad things he does are intentional or are at the very least not that serious.

2003 Raph helped that poor old lady and we're calling him a jerk?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aaronardo (Post 1940362)

2003 Raph helped that poor old lady and we're calling him a jerk?

“Jerk” doesn’t automatically mean “bad guy”. TV Tropes calls it “Jerk With A Heart Of Gold”.

And in my own opinion, he acts like a d*ck toward his brothers, especially Mikey. But again, that doesn’t mean he’s heartless; he has flaws just like every other character.

Raph being Raph, moving on...

I mean, I think it's part of the character to be so exaggerated and kind of a jerk.
Considering some episodes and moments (like in the beginning of Touch n' Go) I think Mikey is worse at being a jerk to people.

The "Casey Jones" Raph basically never returns so character development basically.

About the Battle Nexus tournament part, I guess that he knew that even if he hit Mikey with his sai nothing would have happened to him as the Battle Nexus' rules don't even let the contenders to hurt each other with weapons.

After season 2, they toned him down dramatically. The insane Raph from season 1 was gone by season 3.