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-   -   Nick Spencer and Ryan Ottley Taking Over Amazing Spider-Man (http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showthread.php?t=59662)

ZariusTwo 03-01-2018 11:03 AM

Nick Spencer and Ryan Ottley Taking Over Amazing Spider-Man
 
Controversial Marvel scribe Nick Spencer (Secret Empire, Ant-Man, Superior Foes of Spider-Man) and Ryan Ottley of Invincible are the new creative team on Amazing Spider-Man. Alien invasions, familiar favourites, secrets from the past and more



http://comicbook.com/marvel/2018/02/...r-ryan-ottley/

Candy Kappa 03-01-2018 11:06 AM

After Nazi Cap, I'm sceptical of anything Spencer

PApagreg 03-01-2018 11:39 AM

So we got the people who worked on Invincible and Superior Foes, this should be very interesting.

MikeandRaph87 03-03-2018 09:12 PM

I just found this on CBR and I am confused. Didn't Amazing Spider-Man just go back to its actual numbering instead of launching a new volume of twenty or so issue twice since 2012 not even counting Superior? So at #800 it goes back to #1 again for like the 4th time? Why does Marvel like crapping on its number system and giving all Spider-Man collectors a major headache? Keep the numbers going!

ZariusTwo 03-04-2018 03:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeandRaph87 (Post 1749656)
I just found this on CBR and I am confused. Didn't Amazing Spider-Man just go back to its actual numbering instead of launching a new volume of twenty or so issue twice since 2012 not even counting Superior? So at #800 it goes back to #1 again for like the 4th time? Why does Marvel like crapping on its number system and giving all Spider-Man collectors a major headache? Keep the numbers going!

The Legacy branding was an initative started by Axel Alonzo, and he's no longer in charge, the new EIC C.B Cebulski is behind the relaunches.

ASM's current volume will end with Issue 801, which is Dan Slott's last issue

MikeandRaph87 03-04-2018 09:09 AM

I thought the latest company-wide retooling was more of a legacy then the last one just continuity centered. Like how The Champions group was nothing, but replacement characters for example. I dropped ASM several issues in after Superior ended. I couldn't find it interesting at all. This is the third playing around with numbers since 2014.

I didn't know there was another change at the top. I just wish issue numbers would be left alone for collectors sake, it makes it much for difficult. Blah!

ZariusTwo 10-07-2020 07:37 AM

So we've reached the 49th/850th issue mark of this run, figured it was time for a catch up

Anyone have a scooby doo where are clues as to who Kindred is?

Galactus 10-08-2020 03:44 PM

Joyce Delaney?

Judas Traveller?

Honestly this has dragged on for too long. I remember reading a fan theory of his identity ages ago which wasn't the usual Harry, Gwen, pre-BND Peter and a detailed explanation of why it had to be them. I remember nodding my head saying yes to all of that...it was so long ago that not only do I not remember who it was but can't remember any of the reasons either.

ZariusTwo 10-09-2020 08:24 AM

What makes the wait pointless and frustrating is Spencer has said his identity is easy to guess and that's not even the real hook of his character, it's his method and motivation that's the mystery.

ZariusTwo 10-09-2020 01:13 PM

And now Ottley has quit Amazing Spider-Man

https://twitter.com/RyanOttley/statu...11596321148929

ZariusTwo 10-14-2020 12:22 AM

One of the earliest guesses about Kindred turns out to be the correct one

https://comicsheatingup.net/2020/10/...d-revealed/10/

Galactus 10-15-2020 04:31 AM

On the one hand making it Harry is very underwhelming I'm glad that it wasn't any of the more 'out there' ideas that it was Gwen or the soul of pre-OMD Peter.

Still interested in how this 'cleansing' plays out although it does seem since the Thunderbolts series he starred in Norman doesn't stay the standard Green Goblin for long. There is always some twist or alternate identity.

ZariusTwo 10-24-2020 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galactus (Post 1864427)
On the one hand making it Harry is very underwhelming I'm glad that it wasn't any of the more 'out there' ideas that it was Gwen or the soul of pre-OMD Peter.

Still interested in how this 'cleansing' plays out although it does seem since the Thunderbolts series he starred in Norman doesn't stay the standard Green Goblin for long. There is always some twist or alternate identity.

January's cover appear to show Norman colluding with Kingpin, looking fairly twisted/evil looking so the cleansed angle may only last as long as this storyline.

Here's a rare interview with Spencer on how Harry fits with all this, and what's to come

https://www.cbr.com/nick-spencer-ama...ins-interview/

ZariusTwo 10-29-2020 03:06 AM

Thoughts on this week's ASM


Peter and Strange attempt to fend off the Kindred-possessed Cindy, who demands Peter confess to something. Peter agrees to meet with Kindred, and Cindy departs. Peter and Strange talk, Strange suggests he access the web of life and destiny through the astral plane and gives Peter the Hand of Vishanti...but Strange finds something wrong with it...he asks Peter if he's made any 'arrangements' in regards to something, but believes that to be 'impossible', he tells Peter he will work on liberating his friends without his assistance and casts him out of the sanctum.

However, it's then revealed Peter went to Felicia to ask for help in appropriating the Hand of Vishanti in case Strange proved to be difficult, and Felicia makes good on her own arrangement, stealing the hand and giving it to Peter. Peter uses it to travel to the astral plane but finds himself in a dimension focused entirely on him, with Uncle Ben, Aunt May, and even Morlun plastered on billboards. it's a dimension Peter has visited before with Doctor Strange.

A familiar voice calls him 'tiger', Peter turns to find an illusion of Mary Jane, who tells him that everything's ok and the answer is 'yes'....can this be pre-OMD MJ? Kindred invades the dreams and attacks Peter, and he wakes up in Kindred's graveyard lair, where he has finished setting up a dinner table filled with the skeletal remains of Peter's lost ones.

I like to think Felicia always answers her doorbell in full costume. That was rather silly, but it's one of the few bright bursts of light hearted comedy in the actual issue.

In any other sort of event, this is a short, lean issue light on any real incident between Peter and Kindred, if you're experience with the ASM title is a bit more recent, you'd be more in it for the Felicia moments and Peter finally making it to Kindred's front door...the rest of the comic is for your dad or uncle, or anyone who lived life to the fullest in the years 2001 through to 2007, when J.Micheal Strazynski held court over Amazing Spider-Man, advancing him in ways rarely touched on in many years since (and even in the case of Parker Industries, handled with all the delicacies of a Peppa Pig pitch meeting)

Packed with callbacks, items and places from prior JMS issues, and a potential cameo from the "last remains" perhaps of the old reality's Mary Jane, this issue sees the acknowledgment of otherworldly arrangements which provokes Strange into cutting Peter out of their own joint rescue mission, a flavour perhaps of the greater rejection to come for Peter by the hero community should the rest of the arrangement come to full public light?

And then there is the answer...the simple answer...yes. Yes was the answer to that arrangement, spoken from the lips of the spider-bride. Have to admit, I really did think they were going to pull a double-turn and reveal MJ was working for Kindred or that she was Kindred herself when those centipedes appeared. And Kindred does say "we" an awful lot when Peter arrives at his graveside lair...he could be referring to the company he's keeping, but you never know.

Nevertheless, we are getting closer to answers, and, for Peter, the start of a short and rocky road to realisation, and perhaps a longer one to redemption. Stay tuned.

ZariusTwo 11-11-2020 06:50 AM

A lot of important stuff happens in ASM#52.LR, not so much ASM#52

We see more of the fall out of the Order of the Web recovering from their demonic possession, Mary Jane meets with Doctor Kafka, who verifies Norman's assurances he's sane, and listens to his pleas to help Harry. Harry over in ASM#52 beats Peter up, strikes a deal with him to remove the sins from the other Spider-Heroes, and then snaps his neck

MJ brings up that Harry has done everything to escape the shadow of his father, and has been seemingly 'fine' for a while

There also appears to be a demonically possessed version of Mary Jane stalking Doctor Strange and the others when they visit the Astral Plane

ZariusTwo 11-19-2020 01:31 AM

Peter dreams about the dinner party he attended for Harry's comeback at the end of One More Day. Peter gets emotional when he sees Flash. He's introduced, as in the original story, to Lilly Hollister and Carlie Cooper, but this time Peter actually notices Mary Jane is at the party and ignores the pair of them. He tries to go after MJ before she can leave but Harry appears before him. Peter recalls what was said between them that day..."Speak of the Devil and he appears"

Back in the real world, Kindred revives Peter from the dead, and peels his own face off...Kindred finally stands revealed to Peter as Harry Osborn, and he utters his famous 1990s catchphrase...GOTCHA

My thoughts:

Amazing Spider-Man fills up a lot of pages with meta-commentary in the teases and some semblance of pay off at last as Harry unmasks...looks like the Kindred get up might not be entirely mystical, perhaps that's why he needed Mysterio. Still so little we know, but hopefully we're approaching the final stages of this arc and we'll get answers. In the meantime, we have some fabulous bundles of Bagley art and Peter prioritising amends with MJ over being introduced to her failed successors.

It's so good to see what many suspected about the post-devil deal epilogue fully realised. Harry as the bizzare chess master of the dopiest Spider-Man plots puts him right up there with Norman on the rictor scale. Anytime there's convoluted bizzaroland antics from editorial, just pin it on a Goblin. I look forward to the next migrane, next time use Kingsley!

Bagley seems to have trouble distinguishing Harry from Norman, which makes me think the Osborn we saw with Wilson Fisk in the January covers is meant to be Harry after all.

ZariusTwo 12-29-2020 01:08 PM

Spider-Man's new outfit for 2021


https://www.gamesradar.com/new-spide...led-by-marvel/

TurtleTitan97 12-29-2020 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo (Post 1874361)

I'm unsure how to feel about it. Maybe it'll grow on me.

Galactus 12-29-2020 02:49 PM

Why is Spencer's run lauded by fans as a 'back to basics' approach again?

ZariusTwo 12-30-2020 04:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galactus (Post 1874374)
Why is Spencer's run lauded by fans as a 'back to basics' approach again?

Besides the fact the first trade in his run is called 'Back To Basics?':P

But yeah, the run so far seems to be Spencer saying "Imagine it's 2008...only Peter and MJ never broke up", he's used everything utilised in the last decade plus or so of the comic, mostly aiming to 'fix' what some readers found problematic with them.

Where as Dan Slott would often try to set records with the amount of new Spider-Man outfits he'd introduce, usually at the expense of a coherant story. Spencer appears to have a fairly confident opinion of himself that he now feels he can introduce a new Slott-style costume and have the ability to tell a superior story with it.

ZariusTwo 01-27-2021 05:30 AM

This video does a good job of trying to address, and raise concerns, over the pacing of Spencer's storytelling while still praising the book for what it's doing.


Galactus 01-27-2021 07:34 PM

I believed this about Slott's run but it's equally true of Spencer's too is that how well it's regarded will be judged more in if it does anything to reverse One More Day.

If it somehow nullifies the Mephisto deal and then all of the issues readers have had with it will magically go away. If not then the whole thing will be written off as a flop even the parts that are well written.

ZariusTwo 01-28-2021 02:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galactus (Post 1877852)
If not then the whole thing will be written off as a flop even the parts that are well written.

Much like how the Clone Saga is regarded as a flop because, on top of being massively convoluted, it didn't culminate in Peter and MJ becoming parents by the end of it, and for killing off Ben Reilly.

I think a lot of fans are also just tired of creative runs on Spidey ending on major downers. Slott's run ended with a nice little standalone, but the prior issue killed off Flash Thompson, JMS' run ended with OMD, Mackie's era ended with Peter and MJ's brief separation, the Clone Saga went through multiple creative teams but ended with the demises of Ben and Baby May. I think Peter deserves a win by the end of at least one guy's run at this point. I feel one of the only runs that ends on an "upswing" is Roger Sterns', even if there's a cliffhanger that leads to the original Secret Wars.

AquaParade 02-09-2021 11:17 AM

I love following my favorite creative teams in comics, so naturally, I long for Marvel to put an exciting name on the book again. Someone who actually has a bit of agency or power when it comes to the creative direction. Someone who can throw their weight around. Most of all, someone with a bold unique take on the character.
I've enjoyed bits of Brand New Day, Dan Slott's run, and even the first Spencer arc, but nothing truly exciting has been done since Superior Spider-Man, which was pretty much an anomaly.

I guess part of the problem is that Spider-Man doesn't need top tier writers and artists to sell itself. You could argue the same for Batman, yet D.C. actually put an effort into putting exciting new creators on the book. Batman has consistently had one of the hottest names in comics. Morrison, Snyder, King. And Capullo was an inspired choice for artist.

ZariusTwo 02-10-2021 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AquaParade (Post 1879365)
nothing truly exciting has been done since Superior Spider-Man, which was pretty much an anomaly.

Superior Spider-Man was just as bad as everything else at the time

Quote:

King
I don't mind King's run, but it flopped hard after they didn't go through with the Bat-Wedding, that's why King was removed from the book early.

AquaParade 02-17-2021 07:40 PM

Superior Spider-Man was a lot of fun as well as a big success. Subjective, of course.

I thought King's Batman run was just okay. I loved some of the shorter stories. But I really love that DC brought him on board for Batman. They care who writes Batman.

ZariusTwo 02-19-2021 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AquaParade (Post 1880845)
Superior Spider-Man was a lot of fun as well as a big success. Subjective, of course.

Anything by Dan Slott post 2010 is mostly s*it. The story made everyone in Peter's circle and in the superhero community look like idiots for a year and it ended in the most mean-spirited way possible.

Success is no measure of quality. The main Spider book didn't keep those fans when it finished, and the Superior Spider-Man title they launched later was quickly cancelled. It was a gimmick with a limited shelf life

Quote:

They care who writes Batman.
Again, this is why they took him off the book.

ZariusTwo 02-23-2021 01:41 PM

BIG spoiler for ASM#60 tomorrow

Spoiler:
Doctor Strange returns eager to find out what's wrong with Peter's soul, and goes to the one person who might know...MEPHISTO

AquaParade 02-23-2021 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo (Post 1881120)
Anything by Dan Slott post 2010 is mostly s*it. The story made everyone in Peter's circle and in the superhero community look like idiots for a year and it ended in the most mean-spirited way possible.

Success is no measure of quality. The main Spider book didn't keep those fans when it finished, and the Superior Spider-Man title they launched later was quickly cancelled. It was a gimmick with a limited shelf life

Success is a measure of quality on some level. Other then that, all you have is subjectivity, which is great, but there's no way to measure it.
The main Spider book not keeping fans after Superior Spider-Man is indicative of the book after Superior Spider-Man, not of Superior Spider-Man itself. Superior Spider-Man brought in a lot of new readers. And yes, the book lost them when it ended - that actually speaks to my point, as opposed to yours.

I've seen the complaint of Pete's inner-circle acting dumb for not realizing that Dr. Octopus had taken over Pete's body, and while I accept it as a complaint, I think it's overblown.

How often do you suspect that your friend has been body-snatched? It's much easier to chalk things up to Peter turning into a jerk.
Sure, you can point out that fact that 'we are in the Marvel universe, where anything is possible, and his friends should know to suspect that someone has taken over his body', but I think suspension of disbelief is just going to vary on that one. Again, I understand the complaint, but it seems nitpicky to me. It's going to take a **** load to make me suspect that my friend has had his body taken over by someone else. Most people would never consider this.

It wasn't perfect, and it ended in rather lackluster fashion, but it was an exciting moment in comics that built a lot of anticipation and created a lot of fun discussion and theories online. It was bold to have Doc Ock take over as Spider-Man for as long as they did, as least compared to just how sterile the rest of the industry has become. Keep in mind, this was before Marvel Now really kicked off and we had each of our heroes being replaced by someone else, typically female. It actually felt pretty fresh back in 2012.

Quote:

Again, this is why they took him off the book
I'm not sure what your point is here. I'm not vouching for King's Batman like you think I am. I simply appreciate the effort DC went through to get King on the book in the first place. He was a promising choice and you don't see Marvel going after Morrison, King, or Snyder for Spider-Man. A for effort.

ZariusTwo 02-24-2021 01:05 PM

I've now read ASM#60

Peter uses the acting technique to vent on everything that he's been before and after Harry's return, how he can't stop the darkness growing stronger despite every status quo shift, from being an Avenger to being the head of Parker Industries, he always ends up in a poorer place afterwards, he reassess himself and begs Harry to tell him what to do next, to help him understand, he wants his friend back and will confess anything he can remember to make that happen. He breaks down and Mary Jane comforts him.

MJ tells Peter she's going to stay in New York and help him heal up mentally, Peter heads off to attend class while MJ sticks around the theatre and talks to Mysterio, who was eavesdropping. The two have a working partnership. MJ wants to tell Peter she's working with Beck but feels there's too much going on with Kindred, and she wants Beck to come clean about his involvement with him as she strongly suspects he is associated with Harry.

As previously spoiled above, Doctor Strange returns from the astral plane and has a talk with Mephisto in Vegas. Mephisto doesn't know who Kindred is, but Strange wants to know a more important thing...who has tampered with the soul of Peter Parker

Despite my previous frustrations, I'd say Spencer is definitely in the top five tier of Spidey writers now in my view, he 'gets' Mary Jane more than any other current Marvel writer, and I love how he keeps MJ likeable despite her dealing with secrets that could really test Peter's faith in her. It's a good thing we had the Amazing MJ series prior to this that gave us more insight into MJ's motivations, otherwise I'd be pretty scared...but she cares about both sides and is taking charge of everyone's wants and needs.

Galactus 02-24-2021 05:21 PM

It was some nice character work but the book looks like it's trying to write a cheque that Spencer will never be able to cash. Peter going all meta and realising that no matter what major changes happen in his life from different romances, different jobs, owning a company, working with different super hero teams he always ends up single, broke, loner superhero working at the Bugle. Even if Spencer does undo the Mephisto none of that is going to change. One More Day was a symptom of this problem not the cause.

I didn't read the Mary Jane series so I missed why she is working with Mysterio but it seems bad that she seems to know a lot about what is going on with the metaphysical forces manipulating Peter which seems at odds with her in being in love with him. I wonder if at the end of this the Mephisto is null and void only for Peter to reject MJ for not being honest with him.

ZariusTwo 02-25-2021 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galactus (Post 1881920)
It was some nice character work but the book looks like it's trying to write a cheque that Spencer will never be able to cash. Peter going all meta and realising that no matter what major changes happen in his life from different romances, different jobs, owning a company, working with different super hero teams he always ends up single, broke, loner superhero working at the Bugle. Even if Spencer does undo the Mephisto none of that is going to change. One More Day was a symptom of this problem not the cause.

I didn't read the Mary Jane series so I missed why she is working with Mysterio but it seems bad that she seems to know a lot about what is going on with the metaphysical forces manipulating Peter which seems at odds with her in being in love with him. I wonder if at the end of this the Mephisto is null and void only for Peter to reject MJ for not being honest with him.

I caught this post this morning when you posted it on the CBR Spider-Man forums.:)

MJ has a lot of faith in her love for Peter, that harkens back to what she told him after making the deal in OMD. She believes their love is strong enough to overcome every secret kept and every obstacle put in their path.

She might be holding Peter in too high a stature, and he'll shock her with his reaction, but at the same time I don't think Spencer will take the opportunity to 'shatter' them, I think he wants to create the illusion that he will, it's a trick Bendis pulled with his Superman comics, he tried to make readers think Lois and Clark were going to split up early on, only to simply make their marriage long-distance and got on with other things.

Spencer is doing the exact same thing with Peter and MJ, creating this tense atmosphere not for Peter Parker, but for the reader, who have been burned so badly by OMD for over fourteen years and do not trust Marvel in the slightest to give them what they want.

Galactus 02-25-2021 04:36 PM

Hi, Revolutionary Jack. I'm fairly unique in Spider-Man fandom as I don't really have strong opinions either way about the relationship with Mary Jane. I like it but I'm not (ahem) married to it and I can see both sides of the argument for the two being wed.

I feel it's a questionable decision for MJ to secretly know about the Mephisto deal but can understand she would keep it to herself after all this time for Peter's own good but if some forces out there are literally messing with Peter's actual soul and she knows about it that's something else entirely. Unless there's a good reason why MJ is keeping quiet about who is messing with the soul of the man she loves it seems manipulative and almost as dubious a creative decision as the Mephisto deal itself. If the ending of all this is that the two get back together I'm sure most fans will be very happy that they'll overlook this but it should be a mark on her character.

ZariusTwo 02-26-2021 12:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galactus (Post 1882061)
Hi, Revolutionary Jack.

Oh I'm not Jack (although we're very like-minded), I've been banned from CBR for a while (I was Miles To Go), but I still lurk.

Quote:

I feel it's a questionable decision for MJ to secretly know about the Mephisto deal but can understand she would keep it to herself after all this time for Peter's own good but if some forces out there are literally messing with Peter's actual soul and she knows about it that's something else entirely. Unless there's a good reason why MJ is keeping quiet about who is messing with the soul of the man she loves it seems manipulative and almost as dubious a creative decision as the Mephisto deal itself. If the ending of all this is that the two get back together I'm sure most fans will be very happy that they'll overlook this but it should be a mark on her character.
It is an interesting wrinkle, I won't argue that, but I can somewhat understand MJ's posistion. She has very much even greater power and responsiblity over not just Peter's life, but also Aunt May's health and the status of reality. Undoing the interference with Peter's soul could reset history and radically alter it in ways that may benefit the Parkers, but can leave everyone else in poorer places.

the argument has always been "you could have told all these Brand New Day stories with the marriage", but what if Marvel had a more distinct answer to this? How about "no, history would have been very different, and here's why"

In being as secretive as she is, MJ is doing her best looking out for everybody, Peter, May, the Marvel Universe that she has had a hand in creating, the reality Aaron's Avengers title is indicating Mephisto has had a big hand in building from the ground up historically.

ZariusTwo 04-21-2021 02:29 PM

"Sinister War" is a four-issue mini series by Nick Spencer and Mark Bagley. set for July. It's Doc Ock's Sinister Six against Vulture's Savage Six

Ock's Sinister Six consists of Ock, Lizard, Hydroman, Sandman and Kraven....and it's hinted Kindred is the sixth member


https://www.gamesradar.com/spider-ma...ter-war-event/

ZariusTwo 05-12-2021 08:40 AM

Amazing Spider-Man: King's Ransom



So it turns out Boomerang had been playing a long con the entire time to secure the lifeline tablet. Fisk had hired him before the Archivist had recruited him. Once Fred had the location of the fragments burned into his brain, Fisk sprung a trap and killed the Archivist, Fred was upset about that. The Archivist however revealed that he put an enchantment spell, meaning only a pure and true hero could secure the fragments....so Fred earned Peter's trust and sprung a trap with the lethal foes once Peter passed the test and retrieved the final part of the tablet.


And if that's not bad enough, his friends tell him they're excuse for dropping by the apartment was to evict him due to constant attack from super villains. Peter thinks it isn't the end of the world, all Fisk wants to do is bring back his wife right? His friends, however, are clearly aware that Fisk has used the tablet to bring back his son Richard Fisk, The Rose is back!

MikeandRaph87 05-12-2021 09:07 AM

The Lifeline tablet, this is the same thing from the Lee arc that introduced SIlvermane right? It later reappeared in a mini-series that had Hammerhead cure his dying sister with Conners help.

Also, I thought Kraven was dead again, is this is clone or a son?

Also, usually the old man sides with Otto so what has the two on opposing sides? Otto on the side of the angels or playing some sinister long game?

ZariusTwo 05-12-2021 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeandRaph87 (Post 1891865)
The Lifeline tablet, this is the same thing from the Lee arc that introduced SIlvermane right?

Yes, the very one.

Quote:

Also, I thought Kraven was dead again, is this is clone or a son?
Clone 'son'.

Quote:

Also, usually the old man sides with Otto so what has the two on opposing sides? Otto on the side of the angels or playing some sinister long game?
Vulture has his own team now. Otto is being controlled by Kindred.

MikeandRaph87 05-12-2021 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo (Post 1891867)
Yes, the very one.



Clone 'son'.



Vulture has his own team now. Otto is being controlled by Kindred.

Okay, I knew that he was inhabiting an imperfect Peter Parker clone and had his own series after ASM#800. I was thinking he was playing anti-hero like Eddie Brock. So Harry is using Otto as a puppet?

I thought Fisk wanted to return Vanessa to life, I didn't realize that The Rose was dead.

ZariusTwo 05-12-2021 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeandRaph87 (Post 1891898)
I thought Fisk wanted to return Vanessa to life, I didn't realize that The Rose was dead.

Vanessa was actually the one who murdered Rose/Richard when she was alive, it happened around Bendis' run on Daredevil almost twenty years ago.


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