[Raphamel]

Originally Posted by Janus Prospero

If it may please the court, I'd like to give my interpretation of the Raph vs Leo fight. First of all, let me start off by saying that Raphael is flat out my favorite turtle, so obviously deep down I wanted him to win this fight. I believe Raph beat Leo. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. He smoked him. Leo did not "let Raph win," and I don't even think Leo held back either.

Raph is flat-out mine as well. I actually wanted Raph to win, but for the right reasons: I wanted them both to learn something. And they did. Leo wasn't cleared of any fault in the matter, it would make me angry too if my brother who'd left the family returned and then pretended like the last year and a half didn't happen (or worse: didn't *matter*). If Leo would have gotten the better of him in this fight, I'm sure Raph wouldn't have snapped out of his anger and would more than likely still be pissed in his Nightwatcher's suit somewhere. I like that Leo saw both the overly aggressive (which also incorporated a deep resentment from Leo's abandoning them) side of Raph and then the regretful, ashamed Raph. Leo should understand from 19 years of living with him that his brother is not just the hot-head he's always panning him out to be. Raph has layers just like you do, Leo. Always has.

Originally Posted by Janus Prospero

#1) Director, Kevin Munroe himself said in an interview that this movie settles the Raph VS Leo debate. So why all the debate after the movie? By his statement, I think Occam's razor tells us that Raph won (at least in his eyes.) And since he wrote the script, he's the highest authority as far as I'm concerned.

I've heard Kevin say a few times that Raphael is also his favorite. And I don't think that had an effect on the outcome of the fight, nor do I think he was trying to say that Raph would ALWAYS win, either. No one's in their top form all the time, not even the greatest of athletes. Sometimes your opponents are actually in their top form on a day when you are not. It's unrealistic for someone to win all the time, and never over the years have they shown one Turtle always winning, so I'm with you on this: Why are people so unable to believe what their own eyes show them? Leo *CAN* lose just like anyone else.

Originally Posted by Janus Prospero

#4) And this is the one that I think really sells it for me. Both Leo and Raph clearly learn something by the end of this movie. In the beginning, neither brother thought they needed each other. Leo thought Raph was merely a hindrance to his team and was more of a liability than anything. Raph thought he was better off on his own and his brother was just trying to hold him back. So what happens? They fight. Raph loses control and almost takes Leo out. They both realize their mistake and in the end they reconcile. Raphael accepts Leonardo as the one to lead them to victory, and Leo recognizes Raph as an invaluable member of his team. Anyway, my point is, if Leo had thrown the fight, he wouldn't really have learned anything! He would have continued to think that he didn't really need Raph. He would have been all, "My wise plan to get Raph to follow me worked." But that isn't the case! I 100% agree with the poster that said that forfeiting the fight in lieu of teaching a lesson is a Splinter thing. Leonardo is in no way there yet.

Exactly. Leo was not being appreciative of his brother or even considering the fact that "Gee, wow, Raph's upset that I'd left them so long, maybe I should tell him why and... maybe.... even apologize." I'm glad that they came to a truce... if only until the next film

Originally Posted by Janus Prospero

I like to think of the Raph/Leo thing as an analogy to the game Rock, Paper, Scissors. Sure, rock breaks scissors, but that doesn't make rock better than scissors. Because as we all know Scissors > Paper > Rock and so on and so forth.

What a great analogy!

Originally Posted by Janus Prospero

If you're confused by this, allow me to flesh it out further. Each turtle has their own style and personality. This becomes very apparent in every aspect of their lives, even when they are fighting. For example, Leo is usually very calm, collected, and focused while Raph is gritting his teeth, grunting, and basically going berserk.

Next time you see the movie, pay attention to the entire scene. When Leo was engaged in battle with the Nightwatcher, both he and Raph each exhibited their own distinct fighting mind set (calm VS angry.) But what happens after the big reveal when Leo finds out it's Raph under the helmet? Well, they argue and things get a little heated. Despite being fairly agitated, I think Leo is still mostly under control with his cold, "I'm better than you" and how he urges Raph not to fight him. But after they both start fighting it looks like they're both really into it. It's not just Raph attacking Leo and Leo deflecting the blow. Leo himself is taking swipes at Raph with his blade. In at one point Leo even charges Raph, rather than letting Raph come to him. How is that fighting defensively at all? They are both caught up in the moment, blinded by their own rage, and not even realizing how close they're coming to killing each other. That's why Leo misses Raph's head when he thrusts his blade at him. A lot of people have come to me and used that particular action as justification for why Leo is holding back through the entire fight. They say that Leo is just trying to scare Raph, but to me that is the only sign that Leo might be holding back. I'm going to need more than that to be convinced. It's not like Leo is some God of a swordsman that never misses or anything...

That final pic made me almost spew out my cereal. Wasn't expecting that, lol. Poor Leo indeed. I agree they are both actually "fighting" and not one fighting and the other defending. That much is obvious to me. Just because Leo can't bring himself to actually deal out the killing blow doesn't mean that he's not angry enough to do it. He just has a control over that anger and so he doesn't do it. One of the differences he and Raph display in this scene. It does not mean that Leo is IN ANY WAY intending to let Raph win. How is he to know whether Raph's idea of winning means a stab in the eye or not? It's stupid to think Leo would let anyone best him in a fight, especially one as angry and unpredictable as Raph! I do like to think, however, that deep down Leo knew that Raph would never kill his own brother no matter how angry he was. But in the heat of battle isn't it easy to lose such an understanding of someone when they're too angry at you to use similar reasoning?

Originally Posted by Janus Prospero

So, that is my interpretation of how it all went down. You don't have to agree with me, but I've thought about this for a long time, so I feel like it at least makes sense. Hope it wasn't a case of TLDR.

Never!! Some readers here do hate long posts, but they're the ones missing out. I'd like to think most of us love reading any intelligent post from a well-read Turtles fan

Originally Posted by Janus Prospero

Agree 100%. Leo's humility in his success is almost to a fault. However, while I don't think that he thinks that the world revolves around him, I do think that Leo does have a little arrogance, but not in a way that contradicts his character. Leo sees his humility as a virtue, (and it is) but he also recognizes Raphael's lack of the virtue. But rather than wanting to deal with Raph and work through his flaws in order to form a unified team, Leo believes the team would be better off without Raphael. As is exhibited later in the movie when he says, "What do we need Raph for anyway? He's the one that's always jeopardizing our missions!"

Agreed. I don't see how Leo fans can be so put off by their beloved Turtle having a little arrogance. He's not perfect, I for one like Leo better being a realistic young person--that is, with flaws. He's still just as respectable. And he learns from his mistakes in this film, and that's even better.

Originally Posted by Janus Prospero

I've thought long and hard about why Leo says this. I must admit that when I first saw the movie I thought it was a bit out of character. Have you ever argued with a friend, and the argument got a little heated? Eventually, you said something that you later regretted, and since you were friends with that person the thing you said really stung because you knew the person and you knew what you said was really going to hurt them? I think this is what happened in this situation. I think that the argument between him and Raph just angered Leo so much, that it caused him to say something that he knows him and Raph have been thinking all these years. That's why it is so out of character. It's the only thing that really makes sense to me.

Beautifully thought out. Hit the nail right on the head. Have you really only made two posts on the Technodrome Forums? Welcome, my good man