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Old 05-08-2021, 08:37 AM   #68
Sumac
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew NDB View Post
Are you sure you're talking about the GOG version of MK4? Because while it is taking from the old PC version of MK4, it improves the graphics to an almost modern level, I understand, resolution wise.
No, quality of the models is nowhere near close to the Arcade version. Also, it runs faster and controls looser than Arcade.

N64 version was the closest to the Arcade, than PS1 version and PC version was the worst. MK Gold arguably is the best home version of MK4, both graphics and content-wise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew NDB View Post
Interesting. I'm not arguing with you, though when I'm getting my ass kicked really bad at Tekken 7 online, it's never by someone playing as Akuma. It's one of these new lady characters, or Lee, or something. And usually it is ME playing as Akuma.
You are just not good enough. Sorry.
Akuma is "broken", but he is not an automatic ticket to the victory. Especially after multiple revisions of the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew NDB View Post
I'm not entirely sure I follow. If you say Akuma in Tekken 7 only works and you agree he does play like Akuma/Ryu/Ken in a normal SF 2D game, but only by cheating the rest of the "normal" characters and game in Tekken 7... what is the problem with making a new game -- be it a new SF game, or a new MK game -- where Akuma in Tekken 7 gameplay is the norm? Meaning, where you can sidestep, but otherwise moves and combos are essentially the same? i.e., everyone operating under Akuma "rules"?
Sidestepping changes a lot about gameplay. For one it completely changes usage of projectiles, which is a traditional meta for Street Fighter and even more so for MK. Not to mention it changes how teleports work and some other factors, like physics and juggling. Its also influences speed and dynamic of the game, since 3D fighting games are slower than 2D ones. When they try to be fast, you usually get MK4.

Basically, as I said: 2D and 3D fighting games are fundamentally different. You can't just copypaste 2D gameplay into 3D, add sidesteps and keep meta the same. This is not how it works and 3D is not better than 2D - it is just a different thing all together.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew NDB View Post
If all characters and game is calibrated to it, I don't understand the problem.
It won't play like a Street Fighter game. Just like when MK moved to 3D it barely played like old MK games.

Even, though individual SF games are different from each other, all of them have the same fundamental rules. Moving series to 3D will change those rules, which will alienate a lot of fans and won't make new ones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew NDB View Post
Well, I don't agree. On the general comparison. Adding one dimension to a fighting game doesn't make it something else entirely, I don't think.
You are completely wrong.
I've explained why above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew NDB View Post
I'm just curious. What were the things that bothered you the most? You're more invested in MK than me, but me as someone coming into MK11 after not playing any MK in a long time... MK11's core story was OK enough, but toward the end and then going into the "Aftermath," it really became like bad fanfiction.
Without going into long rant: what bothered me the most that they mutilated lore of the series and destroyed character progress.

One of the most interesting things in the MK for me, even above gameplay, were lore and character progression. Each game added something new, but new stuff was usually working within previously established framework. MK11 effectively added so much stupid stuff (Titans who are parents of the Elder Gods, MK story being conflict between Liu and Raiden, set up by Kronika), which was never mentioned or hinted before, that it has effectively broke the lore for me. It was, basically like Rise of the Skywalkers for SW movies, which established that Emperor was alive and his death in Return of the Jedi was meaningless and sacrifice of Vader was basically for nothing.

And character progression was terminated as well. I am was not OK with MK9, since it invalidated all the progress and stories I was following, since 1994, but I made reluctant peace with it, since MK9 was more or less continuation of MKA and it was interesting to see, how story will go this time around.

MK11 terminates character progression again! At this point, I don't even know why I should bother following or care about individual stories, since next game can nullify them as well. Not to mention unexplained changes in the design, bunch of plotholes and unwarranted dumb retcons (origin of Mileena, Sindel being evil). Not to mention possibility that the next game will start story from scratch. If that happens...I don't know why I should even bother following MK story any more.

For me one of the key components of it, was that it was a continuous and mostly coherent story. Now its just a shredded towel, divided into multiple pieces.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew NDB View Post
I guess that's right. Again, the fighting with the Run button to sidestep feels super inorganic and cumbersome and often times just plain doesn't work. Though I do appreciate them trying to join the 3D fighting game field without radically jarring gamers.
They could have just added different moveset for characters, which would have been much better and more coveted innovation, than sidesteps or weapons.

Main problem of MK4 was not only all characters played mostly the same, but Midway even removed individual MK3 combos. They wanted to create an open-ended combo system, but since all characters fundamentally has the same base moveset, it made all characters feel like almost clones of each other. Even ease of use of special moves was not good enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew NDB View Post
Meh. SF EX, like SF4 and SF5, is just another 2D game cloaked with 3D graphics and characters. There is no sidestepping or anything new, just ugly polygons, even by the standards of when it came out. I think they thought Virtua Fighter represented the future, and they were right in a way... but for the wrong reasons. IMO.
Whatever you thoughts on SFEX it is still fundamentally a good series, when it comes to gameplay.

Also, it never attempted to be similar to Virtua Fighter. Core idea was similar to MK4 - take classic gameplay and put it into 3D with some 3D bells and whistles, but keep it familiar. Even SFEX was never very successful it is still worked better than MK4, since fundamentals of SF are just better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew NDB View Post
My general point was just that 2D fighters are simpler. And by simpler I don't mean DRASTICALLY simpler, I just mean unnecessarily so. And while you may be right that Akuma may represent an unfair character in Tekken 7 for the reasons you give (I'm not sure, I'll take your word for it), I see it as both proof positive that 2D fighters like MK and SF could integrate 3D fighting fairly simply... if every character is handled like Akuma in Tekken 7. If you take my meaning.
2D games are not "simpler". They are fundamentally different.
Also, as I said before - Akuma works in Tekken 7 that well only, because, he is an outlier and if you built 3D Street Fighter game, it will be radically different, like MKDA was different from MK4.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew NDB View Post
And also, again, DC Universe vs. MK. I've brought this up before, but I have nothing but awesome and fond memories of it. Particularly in that all of the MK characters operated perfectly fine in the 3D gaming there, while the moves still executed basically the same as 1-3 (more or less). Do you disagree there? Or if I were to word it differently... what do you feel DC Universe vs. MK took away from the previously traditional MK 2D experience (and by traditional MK 2D experience I mean the traditional MK 2D experience that was 5 games ago at that point), if anything? Because for me, as you might imagine, my big gripe was "Mortal Kombat with no blood or real Fatalities?!?! How dumb!" but beyond that... it really did feel like a proper MK game, just with some DC characters in it.
I've never played MKvsDC myself so I can't comment on its gameplay, but from I know its fundamental formula was similar to MK4 - 2D gameplay in 3D with sidesteps. Which is not the same as 2D gameplay.

Once again, you can't keep gameplay the same, if you add 3D dimension. It will be radically different. And it won't make it better, it will make it just different.
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