The Technodrome Forums

Go Back   The Technodrome Forums > General Forums > General Discussion > Books, Comics, and Other Literature

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-25-2021, 05:03 PM   #2181
MikeandRaph87
Jedi Master
 
MikeandRaph87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: JLA Satellite Headquarters
Posts: 10,293
This post is for Leo656, I understand that you define Superman from Man of Steel( 1986) to Superman's Return (1993-1994) about 7 years worth of material.

What is your take on Lex cloning himself after developing cancer and passing himself off as his own son for about 3 years? Also, what about The Matrix posing as Supergirl?

Also, I define Batman from 1967-1984 roughly Barbara Gordon's 1st appearance to Jason Todd becoming Robin. What is your take on my favorite comic run? It's roughly 17 years.
__________________
Michelangelo: This looks like a job for the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles!
Raphael: Sheesh, Mikey this ain't a cartoon!
MikeandRaph87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2021, 08:22 PM   #2182
Leo656
The Franchise
 
Leo656's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: nWo Country
Posts: 24,369
Well, the easy one first. I was a big fan of Matrix Supergirl, in part because I was a big fan of DC's "No More Kryptonians" edict at that time. I liked how they managed to fit both a new Supergirl AND Superboy into the mythos, without having them be tied to their Silver Age incarnations. I was never a big fan of either the "Superman's Cousin" Supergirl or the "Young Clark" version of Superboy. The old Superby stories were corny as hell (and Clark as Superboy was a giant retcon anyway) and Kara Zor-El's character has frankly NEVER been all that interesting. I've gone on at length about it in the past, but Kara never had any identifiably personality in the past, and when they brought her back a few years ago the best they could do to give her one was make her an unlikeable, super-emo brat. And I didn't like that either.

But I was a huge, HUGE fan of the three-part "Supergirl Saga" which ended John Byrne's run, with Superman bringing Matrix back to our Earth from the Pocket Dimension. The early stories with Matrix being all brain-scrambled and having a mental link with Superman, to the point where she/it thought they WERE Clark at one point, were some really interesting stuff. Then when she came back to Earth during the "Panic in the Sky" storyline and picked up as Supergirl, that started a really cool run for the character. I always liked how hard they worked to really make her as different from Superman as possible, down to having a completely different power set and everything. It circumvented a ton of problems the Kara version always had, specifically being that she's really just Clark with a skirt. Matrix was much more of a unique character, despite her origin being more complicated (allegedly the reason she was written out and replaced with Kara back in 2004).

At first, I wasn't as much a fan of the whole bit where Matrix merged with Linda Danvers, but honestly that entire Peter David series was probably the single best Supergirl run of all time. They managed to introduce some of the old Silver Age mythology in a new and cool way, and having Matrix merge herself with someone else felt like a natural evolution for her/it, since as an artificial life form Matrix had always had some major existential crises going on anyway, so all the stuff about her journey to try and become a "real" person and obtain a human soul were supremely interesting.

So yeah, huge fan of Matrix Suprgirl, and she's always been my favorite version of the character (with the Matrix/Linda hybrid a close second). They did so much evolution with that character over more than 15 years, to the point where simply erasing her from ever existing and just replacing her with plain old Kara again felt like a huge, HUGE step backwards. I was open to it, but then the whole Emo Brat stuff mixed with the "Zor-El was secretly a bad guy and sent Kara to Earth to kill Kal" angle just ruined it for me. Especially when they couldn't even keep that straight and went back and forth on it every week. One week, Kara was sent to kill Kal... next week, it was false memories... next week, she WAS a sleep agent but had managed to "overcome her programming"... the week after that, it was all some Black Kryptonite hallucination... I'll be honest, I tapped out pretty early on all that. They really botched it.

Just like with Barry and Jason Todd, I never saw any Kara stories post-2004 that made me GLAD that she was brought back and kicked her replacement to the curb, because just like with Barry and Jason I thought their replacement character was much more interesting.
-------------

As for Lex being a clone and passing himself off as Lex Jr., I'll be honest it all came off a lot better than it probably sounds on paper. Lex was dying of cancer (brought on by his Kryptonite ring), and they needed a way out of that plotline, so they had him fake his death in a plane crash. Without Lex to keep Metropolis running, the city started falling apart until his "son" miraculously showed up to take the reigns and fix everything.

This was rather ingenious on Lex's part, because firstly, it created an environment where the people of Metropolis were suddenly more sympathetic to Lex than they'd ever been before, seeing as how once he was gone everything started to collapse. But furthermore, Lex Sr. was fairly well-known as a scumbag in spite of his public persona, so by passing himself off as his "son" he managed to get a fresh start and clean slate. He managed to fool everyone, even Superman, into thinking he was a super-nice guy with nothing but pure intentions, and this allowed him to operate unfettered. Previously, he always had someone keeping one eye on him, and whenever anything bad happened Lex was usually the first one under suspicion; by using the "Lex Jr." persona, he was able to remove all suspicion from himself and keep Superman or anyone else from hawking him. It was honestly pretty brilliant.

I liked it. It added a whole new dimension to the cat-and-mouse between Superman and Lex. It was a very "Lex" thing to do. And, when the time was right, it allowed him to re-emerge and claim anything evil he'd ever been linked to was really his "evil" clone, and in turn get ANOTHER clean slate (with nobody but Superman being aware as to what had really happened).

I had missed like a year's worth of Superman comics when all that was going on, so when I picked them back up again I was a little confused about the whole "Lex Jr." business, but it didn't take long to get caught up since his underlings were in on the scam and also his thought bubbles explained it frequently. So I think in like one or two issues I was all caught up on what was going on with that. I thought it was very creative.
-------------

Also, I do think the Superman books were pretty much at their BEST through '94 or so, but there were still a lot of good-to-great stories after that and through 2000 or 2001. After that it got spotty. But in the late-90s and early-2000s you still had some stuff like the Dominus plotline or the "King of the World" story that were very good. They lost a little momentum around 1994 but it's not like everything ground to a halt.
-------------

As far as the Batman stuff, it wasn't a bad run. I have some issues from back then; they're fine. It was definitely a better era for single-issue stories, but honestly I always find the 80s and 90s Batman stories to be far more memorable. The 70s were just too "conventional" for me; stuff like "Riddler robs a bank, Batman stops him, next issue it's The Penguin, rinse and repeat." They were written well enough but most of it was pretty "vanilla".

All my favorite pre-Crisis Batman stories are collected in the "Greatest Batman Stories Ever Told" trade paperback, as well as the "Greatest Joker Stories Ever Told" companion volume.

It's not like I outright dislike the Silver Age; it's just that I grew up in the Post-Crisis era when everything had a lot more depth and sophistication; even as a kid, everything Pre-Crisis just came off as super-simple and one-dimensional. Most of the DC comics before 1986 had only a little more depth than an episode of Super-Friends; I was much more intrigued by the stuff people like Byrne, Ordway, and Starlin were writing at the time.
__________________

"I left some words quite far from here to be a short reminder...
I laid them out in stone, in case they need to last forever..."

"But hey... I'm not telling you anything that you don't already know."
nWo Tech: The Official Thread Poison of the Technodrome Forums
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxr...awnHgDz1ceDcfA

Last edited by Leo656; 10-25-2021 at 08:28 PM.
Leo656 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2021, 12:49 PM   #2183
MikeandRaph87
Jedi Master
 
MikeandRaph87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: JLA Satellite Headquarters
Posts: 10,293
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo656 View Post
Well, the easy one first. I was a big fan of Matrix Supergirl, in part because I was a big fan of DC's "No More Kryptonians" edict at that time. I liked how they managed to fit both a new Supergirl AND Superboy into the mythos, without having them be tied to their Silver Age incarnations. I was never a big fan of either the "Superman's Cousin" Supergirl or the "Young Clark" version of Superboy. The old Superby stories were corny as hell (and Clark as Superboy was a giant retcon anyway) and Kara Zor-El's character has frankly NEVER been all that interesting. I've gone on at length about it in the past, but Kara never had any identifiably personality in the past, and when they brought her back a few years ago the best they could do to give her one was make her an unlikeable, super-emo brat. And I didn't like that either.

But I was a huge, HUGE fan of the three-part "Supergirl Saga" which ended John Byrne's run, with Superman bringing Matrix back to our Earth from the Pocket Dimension. The early stories with Matrix being all brain-scrambled and having a mental link with Superman, to the point where she/it thought they WERE Clark at one point, were some really interesting stuff. Then when she came back to Earth during the "Panic in the Sky" storyline and picked up as Supergirl, that started a really cool run for the character. I always liked how hard they worked to really make her as different from Superman as possible, down to having a completely different power set and everything. It circumvented a ton of problems the Kara version always had, specifically being that she's really just Clark with a skirt. Matrix was much more of a unique character, despite her origin being more complicated (allegedly the reason she was written out and replaced with Kara back in 2004).

At first, I wasn't as much a fan of the whole bit where Matrix merged with Linda Danvers, but honestly that entire Peter David series was probably the single best Supergirl run of all time. They managed to introduce some of the old Silver Age mythology in a new and cool way, and having Matrix merge herself with someone else felt like a natural evolution for her/it, since as an artificial life form Matrix had always had some major existential crises going on anyway, so all the stuff about her journey to try and become a "real" person and obtain a human soul were supremely interesting.

So yeah, huge fan of Matrix Suprgirl, and she's always been my favorite version of the character (with the Matrix/Linda hybrid a close second). They did so much evolution with that character over more than 15 years, to the point where simply erasing her from ever existing and just replacing her with plain old Kara again felt like a huge, HUGE step backwards. I was open to it, but then the whole Emo Brat stuff mixed with the "Zor-El was secretly a bad guy and sent Kara to Earth to kill Kal" angle just ruined it for me. Especially when they couldn't even keep that straight and went back and forth on it every week. One week, Kara was sent to kill Kal... next week, it was false memories... next week, she WAS a sleep agent but had managed to "overcome her programming"... the week after that, it was all some Black Kryptonite hallucination... I'll be honest, I tapped out pretty early on all that. They really botched it.

Just like with Barry and Jason Todd, I never saw any Kara stories post-2004 that made me GLAD that she was brought back and kicked her replacement to the curb, because just like with Barry and Jason I thought their replacement character was much more interesting.
-------------

As for Lex being a clone and passing himself off as Lex Jr., I'll be honest it all came off a lot better than it probably sounds on paper. Lex was dying of cancer (brought on by his Kryptonite ring), and they needed a way out of that plotline, so they had him fake his death in a plane crash. Without Lex to keep Metropolis running, the city started falling apart until his "son" miraculously showed up to take the reigns and fix everything.

This was rather ingenious on Lex's part, because firstly, it created an environment where the people of Metropolis were suddenly more sympathetic to Lex than they'd ever been before, seeing as how once he was gone everything started to collapse. But furthermore, Lex Sr. was fairly well-known as a scumbag in spite of his public persona, so by passing himself off as his "son" he managed to get a fresh start and clean slate. He managed to fool everyone, even Superman, into thinking he was a super-nice guy with nothing but pure intentions, and this allowed him to operate unfettered. Previously, he always had someone keeping one eye on him, and whenever anything bad happened Lex was usually the first one under suspicion; by using the "Lex Jr." persona, he was able to remove all suspicion from himself and keep Superman or anyone else from hawking him. It was honestly pretty brilliant.

I liked it. It added a whole new dimension to the cat-and-mouse between Superman and Lex. It was a very "Lex" thing to do. And, when the time was right, it allowed him to re-emerge and claim anything evil he'd ever been linked to was really his "evil" clone, and in turn get ANOTHER clean slate (with nobody but Superman being aware as to what had really happened).

I had missed like a year's worth of Superman comics when all that was going on, so when I picked them back up again I was a little confused about the whole "Lex Jr." business, but it didn't take long to get caught up since his underlings were in on the scam and also his thought bubbles explained it frequently. So I think in like one or two issues I was all caught up on what was going on with that. I thought it was very creative.
-------------

Also, I do think the Superman books were pretty much at their BEST through '94 or so, but there were still a lot of good-to-great stories after that and through 2000 or 2001. After that it got spotty. But in the late-90s and early-2000s you still had some stuff like the Dominus plotline or the "King of the World" story that were very good. They lost a little momentum around 1994 but it's not like everything ground to a halt.
-------------

As far as the Batman stuff, it wasn't a bad run. I have some issues from back then; they're fine. It was definitely a better era for single-issue stories, but honestly I always find the 80s and 90s Batman stories to be far more memorable. The 70s were just too "conventional" for me; stuff like "Riddler robs a bank, Batman stops him, next issue it's The Penguin, rinse and repeat." They were written well enough but most of it was pretty "vanilla".

All my favorite pre-Crisis Batman stories are collected in the "Greatest Batman Stories Ever Told" trade paperback, as well as the "Greatest Joker Stories Ever Told" companion volume.

It's not like I outright dislike the Silver Age; it's just that I grew up in the Post-Crisis era when everything had a lot more depth and sophistication; even as a kid, everything Pre-Crisis just came off as super-simple and one-dimensional. Most of the DC comics before 1986 had only a little more depth than an episode of Super-Friends; I was much more intrigued by the stuff people like Byrne, Ordway, and Starlin were writing at the time.
Obviously, I only know the cliff notes version of the whole Death and Return of Superman opposed to having read it from the first page to the last. It's just too big to know every bit unless you are a collector of Superman comics in particular. My investment came in the destruction of Coast City so as an outsider I saw Mongul as the big bad who used the new villain on the block Cyborg Superman. I would not have guessed it was the other way around. That can be a problem for those who are picking up Green Lantern: Rebirth and such things are referenced.

I wanted to pick out the Lex cancer/passing himself off as his own son when he is in a cloned body thing and The Matrix as Supergirl because both look like convoluted messes to an outsider. I was curious of your perspectives on them. I still prefer the pre-crisis Supergirl. I assume the one we have had since 2004 is meant to be her? It feels more like the third interpretation of the second most known Superman family member. Barbara Gordon lost her best friend. Casually Comics, the same channel that will cover Whatever Happened to The Man of Tomorrow has a few videos of the original Supergirl that might interest you. Like Barry or Hal in your words I guess you could call her 'vanilla'. Hal overcame his 'vanilla' status and became what I like to think of as Maverick meets Obi Wan. All it took was Emerald Twilight and a decade wait. Though it looks like around Action Comics Weekly roots of what we would know Hal as were seen.
https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...mics+supergirl

A solid majority of my favorite Batman stories come from the late 60s through the early 80s'. I like it being just Bruce, Dick, and Barbara. The Batman: The Animated Series inspiration was largely from this period as well. Heck, I want a book dedicated to this period. Not Bruce by himself like Legends of the Dark Knight, but the three of them. So many excellent stories did not need to be supposed epics with consequences like every single run is now. 'Where Were You The Night Batman was Killed?' in Batman#291-#294, 'The Laughing Fish' in Detective Comics#475-476, Six Days of The Scarecrow' in Detective Comics#503, 'The Lazarus Affair' from Batman#332-#335 among others. Complex and meaningful yet not endless epics with so many extended characters that I care nothing for. Denny O'Neil, Len Wein, and Steve Englehart are the porridge just right if you will.
__________________
Michelangelo: This looks like a job for the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles!
Raphael: Sheesh, Mikey this ain't a cartoon!
MikeandRaph87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2021, 11:16 PM   #2184
Leo656
The Franchise
 
Leo656's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: nWo Country
Posts: 24,369
The entire Death, Funeral, and Return of Superman arc is collected in a measly three, easy-to-find TPBs.

There's no way to say it nicely, anyone by 2021 who hasn't read them has nothing to blame but sheer laziness, and considering how it's still considered one of the most seminal DC storylines ever published, it's a pretty inexcusable thing to have missed.

Absolutely anything in comics looks like a convoluted mess to anyone who hasn't read This or That. The easiest solution to that is always simply, "Just read the books; it's all in there."
__________________

"I left some words quite far from here to be a short reminder...
I laid them out in stone, in case they need to last forever..."

"But hey... I'm not telling you anything that you don't already know."
nWo Tech: The Official Thread Poison of the Technodrome Forums
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxr...awnHgDz1ceDcfA
Leo656 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2021, 10:26 PM   #2185
MikeandRaph87
Jedi Master
 
MikeandRaph87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: JLA Satellite Headquarters
Posts: 10,293
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo656 View Post
The entire Death, Funeral, and Return of Superman arc is collected in a measly three, easy-to-find TPBs.

There's no way to say it nicely, anyone by 2021 who hasn't read them has nothing to blame but sheer laziness, and considering how it's still considered one of the most seminal DC storylines ever published, it's a pretty inexcusable thing to have missed.

Absolutely anything in comics looks like a convoluted mess to anyone who hasn't read This or That. The easiest solution to that is always simply, "Just read the books; it's all in there."
Like I said, Superman is the best superhero ever and started the genre. I just prefer to read him in a team up book, not his own featured story. I guess I am just surprised at your disinterest in pre-crisis Superman since the late Silver Age/Bronze Age Batman is my definitive era of the central comic character I collect. I do understand the COIE-Zero Hour being your favorite in that you read it as a kid and was your introduction to the character and genre as a whole though.

Thoughts on The Long Halloween Special?
Spoiler:
I was not happy to see Commissioner Gordon refer to Barbara as his niece. Miller was crazy, he omitted Barbara deal with it post-crisis DC!
However, Barbara wanting to go trick or treating with Dick and Batman delivered 'as discussed' was fun. I love those two interacting! Also, Calendar Man being the featured villain upping his game was nice. Also getting closure on The Holiday Killer storyline. I am thankful that Loeb did pull a fast one and go along with the stupid twist from the film adaptation. It fits well!
__________________
Michelangelo: This looks like a job for the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles!
Raphael: Sheesh, Mikey this ain't a cartoon!
MikeandRaph87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2021, 11:13 PM   #2186
Leo656
The Franchise
 
Leo656's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: nWo Country
Posts: 24,369
I dislike Pre-Crisis Superman because before Byrne came in and cleaned house, the character and his mythology had accumulated so many barnacles and flat-out bad stories that the Superman character essentially necessitated "Crisis" all by himself. Thus it's no wonder why out of all the heroes who had their histories and characters "fixed" by Crisis, Superman arguably had more changes made than anyone else, except maybe Wonder Woman.

Everything people who hate Superman cite as reasons Why they hate him and his mythos, are all relics of the Pre-Crisis era.
- Impossible power-levels with no reasonable limits.
- Writers just making up new powers to Deus Ex Machina their way out of a story.
- Being a dick to Lois, up to and including ever-more-convoluted lies to protect his identity.
- Kal-El having come out of the womb fully-powered. Dumb.
- Clark having already had a decade-long career as Superboy before ever relocating to Metropolis.
- More and more Kryptonians being revealed to have somehow survived Krypton's destruction, to the point where as one '80s-era writer described it, "It seemed as though the only people who REALLY died on Krypton were Kal-El's parents and a few of their closest friends and neighbors." Everyone else miraculously survived and made their way to Earth as a super-villain. Dumb.
- Every idiot on Earth can just walk to any creek or lake bed and miraculously find some Kryptonite.
- Perhaps the biggest problem, the writers writing it so that "Superman" was the Real Guy and Clark was just a disguise. Despite the fact that this guy grew up and lived a whole life as "Clark Kent"; the idea that he's "Superman" in his thought balloons is laughable.

And so on. Now, there WERE admittedly some half-hearted attempts to rectify some of this, in the late-70s and early-80s. Like the story where a Superman doppelganger siphoned off half of Superman's powers, for example. But most of it didn't stick, including that.

The way Byrne (and later Jurgens) presented the character and the mythos was, to me, the "proper" and most fully-formed depiction. It erased all of the nonsense and got things more "back to basics". No other Kryptonians, period. No more "infinite" power levels or convenient plot-device super-powers; he can do what he can do and that's ALL he can do. No more "he was born fully-powered" nonsense (that baby would have murdered literally everybody, before he was even a year old; some things are too ridiculous to even give the time of day, and "Super-Baby" is one of them). No Clark as Superboy. No more constantly lying to Lois, and allowing him to just tell her the truth outright once their relationship got serious. And of course, Clark thinking of himself as "Clark" - who he's always been - rather than either his made-up super-hero name, or his "dead name" which nobody who's living had ever even called him by.

Byrne took a paper-thin, one-dimensional cartoon character with ridiculously over-inflated powers, and made him a person. For the first time. By imposing limits on his powers and determining that Clark would now think and act the way actual human beings think and and behave, the entire character became more interesting than he'd ever been.

Which isn't to say there are NO good Pre-Crisis Superman stories. There are a handful, most of them written after 1975. Even before Byrne, SOME writers were still trying to do some minor clean-up on the character; as I mentioned, though, it wasn't until Byrne that those attempts were more widespread and made to last.

It's not like I wasn't exposed to Pre-Crisis stuff when I was a kid; I went to comic book stores with my Dad often, and I'd pick up whatever Superman back issues they had available. I also picked up TPBs, which were less common back then. But even AS a kid, the older Superman stuff just really did not play well with me at all. It was all very clearly, very obviously written for readers at, at best, a third-grade level; anyone older than that, I'd think, would find those stories insipid. I was always more interested in seeing the modern comics adapt some of those older concepts, and do them better.

I mean, even the "Greatest Superman Stories Ever Told" TPB I grew up reading was little more than a neat curiosity book, to me. I'd argue that 90% of the stories in it aren't even especially "good"; rather, they're more "historically-relevant" than anything - first Luthor story, first Bizarro appearance, and things like that. Then in the 70s era, things actually got "passable", and then in the 80s "Actually Good".

But to be blunt, if anyone ever said, "Superman was way better before John Byrne revamped him," I'd flat-out accuse that person of being on serious drugs. Or jut plain having no taste. The character and his stories could ONLY be considered "better", pre-Crisis, if a person really, REALLY just prefers that super-hero stories be strictly for very young children and no one else. Because just about nobody else could reasonably have gotten any satisfaction out of a Superman comic book printed earlier than 1986.

I do collect issues and TPBs of the character from the Pre-Crisis era, as I'm something of an historian for the character. And I appreciate them, sort of, for what they contributed to the mythos and the longevity of the character. But I don't actually get any great joy out of reading them. They're silly. Very, very, very silly.
-----------------

I don't have any strong feelings on The Long Halloween. It's... fine. I never liked the twist reveal that Harvey's wife was one of the killers; I know that very little time had ever been spent on his wife as a character, but there'd ALSO never been any hint that she was a psychotic murderer, either. And as far as I know, nothing of note was done with her character after that, so it just seemed like a shock value twist with no ultimate payoff.

I also feel like the story is too long; I get the conceit, "Twelve months in a year, twelve issues in the series", but very much of it feels like padding. It's a "mystery" that takes forever to reach its conclusion, and said "conclusion" is an ass-pull retcon that nobody reading the story could have reasonably deduced for themselves, thereby making the "mystery" and its reveal a cheat.

And, I feel like if you don't absolutely LOVE Tim Sale's art - which I don't; he's okay, too stylized for my tastes - that the entire story loses much of its appeal.

It's fine, I own the TPB. I just don't have any real strong opinions about it. Everyone always declared it a masterpiece, and I just always sort of shrug at that. It's Just Okay, to me.

I also haven't seen the movie and really don't have any strong urge to do so.
__________________

"I left some words quite far from here to be a short reminder...
I laid them out in stone, in case they need to last forever..."

"But hey... I'm not telling you anything that you don't already know."
nWo Tech: The Official Thread Poison of the Technodrome Forums
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxr...awnHgDz1ceDcfA
Leo656 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2021, 06:37 AM   #2187
MikeandRaph87
Jedi Master
 
MikeandRaph87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: JLA Satellite Headquarters
Posts: 10,293
I think all of that can be summed up as a maturity in the writing. Before Man of Steel mini it was little seen. Even the stuff I pointed out as convoluted messes you have pointed out are all explained in-story.

Still the 70's Bat is where it's at.

I prefer Dark Victory to Long Halloween but love them both. Some of my favorite overall not just post-crisis.

Did anyone pick up Aquaman/Green Arrow: Deep Target?
__________________
Michelangelo: This looks like a job for the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles!
Raphael: Sheesh, Mikey this ain't a cartoon!
MikeandRaph87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2021, 03:53 PM   #2188
MikeandRaph87
Jedi Master
 
MikeandRaph87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: JLA Satellite Headquarters
Posts: 10,293
I just finished extending my Justice League of America volume one run with #64 & #65. Its a wild ride from 1968 to 1984. Stinky Detroit League was not for me.

It makes me wonder what your thoughts on All-Star Superman are. Unlike a certain fellow All-Star book this is held as a Modern Silver Age tale and a Modern Classic story as well. Maybe it is, maybe it is not to you. I have not read it. Knowing your general negative perception of the Pre-crisis Silver Age Superman I assume it is not for you.
https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Justice_L...erica_Vol_1_64
__________________
Michelangelo: This looks like a job for the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles!
Raphael: Sheesh, Mikey this ain't a cartoon!

Last edited by MikeandRaph87; 10-28-2021 at 03:59 PM.
MikeandRaph87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2021, 08:55 PM   #2189
Leo656
The Franchise
 
Leo656's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: nWo Country
Posts: 24,369
It's "fine" for what it is, but given how over-the-top silly it is, it's definitely not "THE Greatest Superman Story EVER!" the way it is for so many people.

Whenever people tell me it's their favorite/"the best" Superman comic, I immediately know it's the only one they've read in years, if not ever.
__________________

"I left some words quite far from here to be a short reminder...
I laid them out in stone, in case they need to last forever..."

"But hey... I'm not telling you anything that you don't already know."
nWo Tech: The Official Thread Poison of the Technodrome Forums
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxr...awnHgDz1ceDcfA
Leo656 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2021, 09:32 PM   #2190
MikeandRaph87
Jedi Master
 
MikeandRaph87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: JLA Satellite Headquarters
Posts: 10,293
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo656 View Post
It's "fine" for what it is, but given how over-the-top silly it is, it's definitely not "THE Greatest Superman Story EVER!" the way it is for so many people.

Whenever people tell me it's their favorite/"the best" Superman comic, I immediately know it's the only one they've read in years, if not ever.
Like how people say Miller's Batman: Year One and The Dark Knight Returns are the greatest two Batman stories ever told? I like, don't love Year One and always am tempted to point out the Barbara Gordon error and Selina Kyle is not a prostitute before I think 'it was well told and a great pool of inspiration'. I would rather read 'The Long Halloween' and the slightly preferred 'Dark Victory'. Though its the scripts. I don't care much for Sale's unique somewhat abstract style. The Dark Knight Returns just plain bores me, sorry folks. So yeah, I get it. I just All-Star Superman gets tons of praise and is 'Silver Age goofiness modernized'. I would not know, but I felt from reading your commentary I assumed, 'screw the campy lovefest'.
__________________
Michelangelo: This looks like a job for the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles!
Raphael: Sheesh, Mikey this ain't a cartoon!
MikeandRaph87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2021, 07:10 PM   #2191
MikeandRaph87
Jedi Master
 
MikeandRaph87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: JLA Satellite Headquarters
Posts: 10,293
Aquaman/Green Arrow: Deep Target is an interesting mini-series. Another one that looks promising is Robin and Batman three issue prestige format. I wonder if it will follow up Robin: Year One or replace it? Not sticking to the original continuity since Killer Croc was the last new villain Dick Grayson faced as Robin not the first. This one comes out in two weeks.

https://www.previewsworld.com/Catalog/JUL218998
__________________
Michelangelo: This looks like a job for the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles!
Raphael: Sheesh, Mikey this ain't a cartoon!
MikeandRaph87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2021, 02:08 PM   #2192
ZariusTwo
Overlord
 
ZariusTwo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Britain, DINO THUNDER...POWER UP!
Posts: 18,626
Erm...yikes

https://www.tmz.com/2021/11/02/super...did=social-twa
ZariusTwo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2021, 02:24 PM   #2193
Leo656
The Franchise
 
Leo656's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: nWo Country
Posts: 24,369
I can't stand it when people include pictures of Kal-El alongside stories about this whole angle.

That's actually part of the problem and why so many people are losing their sh*t over this to such an extreme degree, I think. Most people don't read past the headlines, they just read "DC Made Superman Bisexual" and automatically flip their sh*t because of course. And if they see a picture of Kal-El accompanying the article that only makes it worse.

Let's be honest, Jon has his ardent fans but among people who don't read comics, 99% of people on Planet Earth don't even know the character exists. So when they hear "Superman is Bisexual", they're reacting to what they THINK is going on, not what's actually going on. They probably wouldn't care about a character they never even knew about and will never be exposed to being bi.

The media's handling of the story from the beginning has been irresponsible and it's directly stoking the flames of the outrage. The correct headline they all should have run with is "Superman's SON Is Bisexual", and they shouldn't put pictures of Kal-El alongside the articles because it just adds to the confusion.

I mean I know Jon is "technically" Superman, now, therefore those headlines are "technically" correct. But again, let's be real. He's not "really" Superman in the eyes of the majority, especially people who don't have any idea he exists. Therefore, the media has a responsibility to present the facts not as they "technically" are, but in a way that people can understand clearly.

The media presents sensationalist headlines, and then people are surprised when people overreact in a "sensational" manner. Let's be honest: They wanted this. They manufactured the outrage by insisting on saying "Superman" is queer rather than Superman's son, and deliberately running pictures of Kal when Kal isn't the one the story is about.

I mean people making threats and sh*t is stupid but they've been manipulated and misinformed into acting that way, deliberately. The people presenting this story about Jon being bi know full well that nobody reads past the headlines anymore, yet they sensationalized anyway.
__________________

"I left some words quite far from here to be a short reminder...
I laid them out in stone, in case they need to last forever..."

"But hey... I'm not telling you anything that you don't already know."
nWo Tech: The Official Thread Poison of the Technodrome Forums
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxr...awnHgDz1ceDcfA
Leo656 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2021, 02:40 PM   #2194
AquaParade
Big Boss
 
AquaParade's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,947
It's dumb, but it's likely what DC wanted anyway. It's likely the whole reason Jon became "Superman" in the very first place. So "Superman" could be bisexual.
AquaParade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2021, 02:55 PM   #2195
Leo656
The Franchise
 
Leo656's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: nWo Country
Posts: 24,369
Undoubtedly.

On some level, not everyone even has a strong opinion about Jon being queer. I don't. I don't think I own five comics with the character. In which case, what gets me is how transparently manipulative the entire exercise is.

When people like Dean Cain say that the whole thing is insincere and that these companies are just fishing for SJW brownie points in a desperate attempt to regain market share and get headpats from Twitter, people get mad and call him names, but the thing is, he's absolutely correct. And THAT is what a lot of people are actually annoyed by, more than a fictional character they're never going to read about being queer.

Most people are just sick of how this stuff gets put into everything nowadays AND that people have to throw a parade over it every single time. If it were a little more subdued and sincere, and less a blatant attempt to show how "progressive" they were in an attempt to stay in the headlines, people probably wouldn't have such strong opinions.

I mean, this may shock some people, but we've had queer characters in comics, movies, and TV shows for decades upon decades now. Sometimes they were portrayed as stereotypes or made fun of, but not always, or even then it wasn't always exactly mean-spirited. Point being, it's old news, and people mostly got used to it a long time ago. But NOW, every time some fictional character "comes out" the mainstream press has to blow a trumpet about it like it's never been done before. And not surprisingly, the people writing such celebratory articles are most often queer themselves.

And I mean, that makes sense, self-interest and all. But here's the thing: THEY care a lot, and nobody else cares at all. Therefore they're just sick of the whole thing being shoved in their faces and are cranky about it.

I mean Elton John's been a cultural icon since the 70s. Pretty sure most people are okay with gay people. They just don't want it to be a constant topic of conversation. It's f*cking exhausting to anyone who isn't queer themselves.

Y'know what I find interesting is that several of my friends in wrestling are queer. Most of them, you'd never know it. I was genuinely shocked by a few. Because they don't constantly talk about and make a huge gigantic deal about it. And while they obviously favor more "representation", even many of them find the whole situation in recent times absolutely tiresome.
__________________

"I left some words quite far from here to be a short reminder...
I laid them out in stone, in case they need to last forever..."

"But hey... I'm not telling you anything that you don't already know."
nWo Tech: The Official Thread Poison of the Technodrome Forums
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxr...awnHgDz1ceDcfA
Leo656 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2021, 03:15 PM   #2196
AquaParade
Big Boss
 
AquaParade's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,947
Yeah, honestly my head feels completely scrambled with all this ****, at this point.
I've never had any problem with any type of progressive behavior, and I do want for everyone to feel recognized, represented, etc, and I don't even mind characters evolving over time, but I'm just so tired of this wankery.

Maybe it's because, like you said, the transparency of it all - the media chasing, the brownie points, etc.
At the same time, maybe none of that should bother me, if this is somehow doing some good for someone out there. Maybe I'm just sick of the vocal part to the crowd this is being catered to/the Twitter mob. It's a lot of mixed feelings.

But again, and sort of as a side-note, if I picked up an actual, Kal El, Superman comic tomorrow, and he kissed an alien dude on Mars, I wouldn't think that's a problem at all. Mostly due to the fact that a man with his life experience would probably have a drastically open-mind when it comes to all things, sexuality included. I'm not saying sexual preference comes down to whether you are open-minded or not, but I just think once you've traveled to other galaxies, you become accustomed to trying lots of new things.
AquaParade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2021, 03:55 PM   #2197
IMJ
Foot Elite
 
IMJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Midwest, U.S.A.
Posts: 3,891
When is everyone going to wake up and realize that most people aren't offended by "gay" or "POC" or anything like that? It's the assault on their values and the proposition that this is somehow a 'newer and better configuration" against something that shouldn't be "reconfigured". The volume of "angry responses" would probably drop from tens of thousands down to... like.... hundreds (bottom feeders) if these things were not part of the greater insanity that has promulgated across the country over the last years.

It's the difference between:

-the current zeitgeist of infiltration and appropriation equaling tens of thousands of angry people when you announce "gay Superman son" replaces regular Superman!"
vs
-They made Northstar gay in Alpha Flight, got some news coverage and one or two clowns protested at their comic shop.

None of this is about inclusion. It's about assaulting anything that is normal and well adjusted and the sheep that sense the "angry people of Twitter" and get on board out of fear and misperception that these attacks-using-diversity are a majority.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AquaParade View Post
But again, and sort of as a side-note, if I picked up an actual, Kal El, Superman comic tomorrow, and he kissed an alien dude on Mars, I wouldn't think that's a problem at all.
Are you a regular Superman reader?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AquaParade View Post
Mostly due to the fact that a man with his life experience would probably have a drastically open-mind when it comes to all things, sexuality included. I'm not saying sexual preference comes down to whether you are open-minded or not, but I just think once you've traveled to other galaxies, you become accustomed to trying lots of new things.
Clearly you are open minded - we can ascertain that even from your open-mindedness with this issue and your post. So we accept that you are open-minded - and I say this without sarcasm and from a point of intellectual fact. Have you engaged in sexual activity with another male? Please continue that open-mindedness regarding my question and admit it here; or explain why you haven't if you are also open minded to all things like this.

Last edited by IMJ; 11-02-2021 at 04:04 PM.
IMJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2021, 04:50 PM   #2198
MikeandRaph87
Jedi Master
 
MikeandRaph87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: JLA Satellite Headquarters
Posts: 10,293
One observation that I can note, as a straight caucasian man when I create fiction I make or take existing concepts of pretty much all straight Caucasians. Ever since reclassification himself as Sophie all Campbell can do is write about sexually ambiguous people. Campbell
can't get away without including what Campbell is to make it work from that person's perspective. It naturally would have never occurred to me that someone would would prefer romance outside of opposite gender same race in creating fiction because it is what is natural to me. If an African American writer is involved naturally the go to response is not gung-ho diversity but including African Americans or Blacks because we naturally want to work with those who are like us. I can understand that. Beyond that its in your face exploitation because the root of it is the desire for money. These Woke businesses are not woke but want wokester's money thinking short-term that they get more money and won't lose dedicated customers. We will see.

Let's move on to more positive conversation. So Robin and Batman, is this erasing Robin Year One or a follow up? A focus on the beginning of the Batman and Robin relationship? More specifically Bruce and Dick's relationship? Killer Croc was the last new villain Dick faced as Robin so obviously is not pulling from accuracy but I am curious about the 3 part prestige format.
__________________
Michelangelo: This looks like a job for the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles!
Raphael: Sheesh, Mikey this ain't a cartoon!
MikeandRaph87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2021, 03:01 AM   #2199
ZariusTwo
Overlord
 
ZariusTwo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Britain, DINO THUNDER...POWER UP!
Posts: 18,626
Williamson confirms he will still be using Tynion's characters when his run on Batman begins

https://twitter.com/Williamson_Josh/...68846633947139
ZariusTwo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2021, 03:46 PM   #2200
ZariusTwo
Overlord
 
ZariusTwo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Britain, DINO THUNDER...POWER UP!
Posts: 18,626
The Justice League Queer will have a story featured in the DC Winter special

https://aiptcomics.com/2021/11/05/ex...to-be-freezin/
ZariusTwo is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
batman, bendis, dc comics, superman, wonder woman

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:30 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.