TMNT II - thoughts on it? - Page 2

*damnhooligan* · 08-24-2003, 02:49 AM

While I agree that the second film wasn't nearly as great as the first (Sheer novelty, I think), I thought it was cute.

As much as people love Corey Feldman (Who doesn't?), I really liked Adam Carl as the voice of Donatello. Plus, I found Brian Tochi's voice to be far more controlled and Leo-esque. Something erked me about his voice in the first movie.

But otherwise, it felt almost like an entirely different universe from the first.

**Karpo_007** · 08-24-2003, 04:06 AM

Well the fact that it's a kids movie do justify the lack of weapons, goofy fights sound effects, and maybe even the REturn of the Shredder the way he did. But it really doesn't justify the cheesy script. There are children's movies with good script too.

Krangfan · 08-24-2003, 09:00 AM

How was the script cheesy?

*Jephael* · 08-24-2003, 09:03 AM

As much as I loved this flick, they could've beefed it up alittle more with the fighting and whatnot.

**Karpo_007** · 08-24-2003, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krangfan

How was the script cheesy?

First of the whole dialogue, and like Ninjagirl said, TMNT dancing in a night club? They were supposed stay out of sight. Every battle was cheesy and goofy with cartoony sound effects. Especially with the yoyos and sausages. One of the worst, bunch of foot Jump over Mikey, he gets out but foot continue hitting the ground. Extremely cheesy and lame. As is the Return of Shredder. First movie showed how the Helmet was crushed, no human could have survived that.

But like I said before, unlike the first movie it's made for children, and it justifies most of those things. But of course If you compare it to the great first movie, it will look very bad.

Cyber Samurai Don · 08-24-2003, 09:39 AM

re: Shredders helmet getting crushed - My thoughts on this was that his helmet fell off when he fell into the truck and so the empty helmet was crushed. (how he survived is another thing).

RE:April. I read/heard somewhere that the first April didn't go down well with the kids and that's why they changed her.

Super Shredder was awesome! His action figure was one of the best TMNT figures ever made (albeit a little short/small). The fact that his clothes 'mutated' made no sense, but oh well.

My fave line was when Mikey said; "a little too Raph"

TMNT II was the best film IMO.

~~Leo656~~ · 08-24-2003, 09:45 AM

I always preferred to think of it as Shredder's helmet getting crushed... cuz after a fall from that height it's actually pretty likely that his helmet would fall off. That it would land in the garbage truck.... that's a bit of a stretch but not altogether impossible. Shredders' return wasn't all that implausible if you remember that it is, in fact, a movie and that all people in movies are a bit more durable than they would be in real life.

And yes, CSD, Super-Shredder did indeed rule the universe. Not for anything he actually did... just cuz it was Nash. The fact that his clothes mutated made no sense, indeed, but... well neither did Nash letting Hogan pin him after a poke to the chest with his finger. Nash bends the laws of physics and reality. Cuz he's God, and God can do that.

Shellfox · 08-24-2003, 09:59 AM

1. Tokka and razor were not stupid. THEY WERE INFANTS!!! At least in human terms, for guys who just became intelliginet being able to talk in a day is pretty damn smart!

2. The costumes were better in the second movie, the Henson company refinded them to an art form in the movie so I have no clue how anyone can complain.

3. We never saw the shreddded get crushed in teh first movie jsut hiw helmet. So it is possible he survived.

4. I can't debate V-Ice, that was just a cheap idea to get people to watch the movie.

5. never heard any sound effects.

6. Keno wasn't a bad addition, yes he was diffrent, but he added much needed martial arts action since the suits naturally impeded some moves.

7. I can't say I cared about Casey, since the fight took place over 3 days or so, its not a big deal that they didn't go find and/or mention him.

8. So they didn't use their weapons, you act like its the greatest offence in teh world. Had they not been wearing their heads, I'd be mad, but weapons, thats hardly a reason to not like a movie

All in all 2 is my favorite of the 3 movies, its probblly the best blend of action and comidy they did.

**Karpo_007** · 08-24-2003, 10:01 AM

Well even if he was in the crusher without his helmet, he would have still died. Grabage crusher does not that much space. But compared to everything else, it is still a minor detail.

Quiller-Bee · 08-24-2003, 10:04 AM

Not all kids necessarily like things that have been dumbed-down and "kiddified", especially when they have something else to compare it to, such as the first movie or the Mirage comics.

My parents dropped my two younger sisters and me off at the theater to see TMNT II. Going in, our hopes were high from the precedent that had been set in TMNT I. Walking out of the movie was a totally different story for me. Yes, we were kids, but I knew right then that we'd been ripped off big time. (To be honest, I was flat-out depressed after seeing it.) It was obvious that the movie had been "kidded-down" considerably from the first.

Like many of you, some of the things that bugged the living crap outta me were:
1.) No Casey.
2.) No use of weapons.
3.) No usage of the term "Damn!" on Raph or anyone else's part.
4.) The addition of the annoying and, in retrospect, completely useless Keno. (Okay, maybe not completely useless. I just didn't like 'im.)
5.) No Casey.
6.) Rahzar - I thought Tokka looked pretty cool at the time, but Rahzar struck me as being a big, goofy reject from the backalley of Sesame Street.
7.) I'm going to be honest here and admit that both my sisters and I were young enough to actually think that Vanilla Ice was cool at that point in time. (My God, I look back and cringe . . . .) Still, the whole "Ninja Rap" routine was simply lame.
8.) Super Shredder . . . his severely disappointing lack of screen time; the fact that he lived such a brief time after his mutation; the fact that in his normal human form, Shredder survived FALLING from a ROOFTOP and being CRUSHED by a GARBAGE TRUCK, but colapsing LUMBER could KILL the SUPER SHREDDER. Gyahd!!! NnnNN - F*** ME!!! (Okay . . . woops . . . >ahem< . . . I thought I'd laid that all to rest in therapy. Guess not. Heh-heh.)
9.) No friggin' Casey.

As for Paige Turco's replacement of Judith Hoag as April, it bothered me for about five seconds, but I was quickly able to get past that with little trouble. Like Leo, the fact that she was hotter than Hoag won me over. (Hey, say what you will, but boys will be boys . . . even before puberty turns us into total hormonal maniacs.)

In closing, we were at TMNT II on its opening weekend. It left such a bad taste in our mouths that by the time TMNT III was released, we waited for it to come out on video.

**Karpo_007** · 08-24-2003, 10:29 AM

I said the movies shouldn't be compared, but since you opened the door, let's.

Quote:

1. Tokka and razor were not stupid. THEY WERE INFANTS!!! At least in human terms, for guys who just became intelliginet being able to talk in a day is pretty damn smart!

Compared to to the first movie's seriousness and excellent plot, Tokka and Rahzard are very stupid thing. But the overall movie style has changed from action/comedy to cheesy children's comedy so they do kind of fit in.

Quote:

2. The costumes were better in the second movie, the Henson company refinded them to an art form in the movie so I have no clue how anyone can complain.

I guess it's matter of opinion, but most fans like the TMNT without that many spots. Excluding the spots they are pretty much as good as in first movie.

Quote:

3. We never saw the shreddded get crushed in teh first movie jsut hiw helmet. So it is possible he survived.

Helmet or not, Human would not survive in garbage crusher. But again, the movie has so little credibility that it's a minor detail.

Quote:

4. I can't debate V-Ice, that was just a cheap idea to get people to watch the movie.

Yes, and the TMNT dancing was the second thing that totally deleted the ninja part from their name. Getting back to that later.

Quote:

5. never heard any sound effects.

Then you should probably watch the first and second movie in a row. Most noticable are the yoyo and sausages at the begining.

Quote:

6. Keno wasn't a bad addition, yes he was diffrent, but he added much needed martial arts action since the suits naturally impeded some moves.

I never really had anything against Keno, annoying character, yes but nothing stupid like Tokka and Rahzar.

Quote:

7. I can't say I cared about Casey, since the fight took place over 3 days or so, its not a big deal that they didn't go find and/or mention him.

No sure what to say, Casey wouldn't have made the movie any better.

Quote:

8. So they didn't use their weapons, you act like its the greatest offence in teh world. Had they not been wearing their heads, I'd be mad, but weapons, thats hardly a reason to not like a movie

This IS a major point. Ninja Turtles fighting with yoyos and sausages instead of traditional Ninja weapons? But again, it reflects the whole style and writing of the movie, goofy action for chidren.

But the general publick did not like it. Altough it wasn't as big flop as the TMNT III, it clearly was one. Because of this TMNT III never really had a chance, it was just the last attempt to cash out from a dieing success of the TMNT.

First movie was a hit that no one expected. Mainly because Kids' were not it's main audience. New Line shouldn't have changed the working formula, but they did, and can only blame themselfs.

As a movie TMNT is far superior in every way, but I really think that Ooze shouldn't be comapred to the first movie since it's much more closer to the cartoon. Kids and an old cartoon fans liked it, so it does appeal to the fan base that prefer the goofy TMNT.

Sparvid · 08-24-2003, 02:22 PM

Two things I haven't seen mentioned yet:

Even if Keno is irritating himself, something even more annoying is his lines when he fights / jumps around, which were clearly dubbed in afterwards.

The Foot soldiers becomes really incompetent! If these guys really are the best well-trained youths in NY, I wonder how bad fighters the rest of them must be...

Quiller-Bee · 08-24-2003, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sparvid

Two things I haven't seen mentioned yet:

Even if Keno is irritating himself, something even more annoying is his lines when he fights / jumps around, which were clearly dubbed in afterwards.

The Foot soldiers becomes really incompetent! If these guys really are the best well-trained youths in NY, I wonder how bad fighters the rest of them must be...

You got that right. Especially in regard to the Foot Soldiers. "Fool Soldiers" would be a more accurate name.

*J Legault* · 08-24-2003, 05:03 PM

Not this again...The sequal might be off balance but i don't see anything bad in it. sure it contains Comedy but nothing wrong to me. If it did awful howcome on the back of my VHS Box said better than the First.

Now here are my options:

The April Charater was play be a different actress but I didn't notice anything about that.

Notice The company was T.G.R.I. while the true letters were TCRI. Same techno company that created the ooze exspect it didn't had any Utroms in it.

I don't mind Keno at all. I guess the movie needed someone pasides danny to be the Kid charater. Nothing wrong with a Japenese Kid in it.

The costumes look like the ones from the original only design differently.

Shredder's Costume had a differnet Visor and Helmit.

Tokka and Rahzar, yes two dumb Mutated animal they don't bother me ether so some of you might as well let that past.

When I first saw the movie on Video I didn't even know who Vanilla Ice is.
Sorry but it's true.

On a different Topic Karpo007 said that the Original one was too serios for younger viewers. Then why does my vHs said the Term Family on it then

now if parent went to stupid enough to tell new Line what to do then maybe today you all would say better thing about it. i don't care what you you what's wrong with the sequal, They are still my favorite. and there's no Wrong thing about it.

*Jephael* · 08-24-2003, 06:19 PM

I couldn't have said it better myself!

Quiller-Bee · 08-24-2003, 06:26 PM

Nobody's saying that you're wrong, man. Your opinion is your opinion, and that's fine . . . and the same goes for those of us who weren't crazy about II or III.

That having been said, here are a few more of my own:

The reason the back of your VHS box says that II is better than the first is a little thing called hype. That's a statement often made in one form or another in regard to a sequel for the sake of marketing . . . a statement that is rarely true. The ticket sales on II didn't begin to approach those of the first movie.

Who says movies like the TMNT flicks HAVE to have a kid character? Firstly, the Turtles themselves were close enough to being kids themselves. Secondly, kid characters irritated me even more when I was a kid myself. (When you pretended to be TMNT characters when you were a kid, did you or any of your friends ever say "Word, I wanna be Keno!") Thirdly, I really don't think the fact that Keno was a "Japanese" character had anything to do with the opinions of 99% of those who didn't like 'im. Certainly not for me.

As for what Karpo said, I won't insult him by attempting to speak for him, but I'll say this in defense of his comment: I don't think he was saying that the first movie was NOT made for kids at all. It was, by definition, more of a family flick than the second movie in the sense that it had elements aimed at both kids and adults. The second was aimed solely at kids . . . which was exactly why some kids didn't like it.

*Dane E5R* · 08-24-2003, 06:36 PM

The costumes do not look the same.. I doesn't anyone remember that chart that JoshBYawn made awhile ago depicting the different versions of the TMNT? If anyone still has that, it'd be nice of you to post it. I've got plenty more to say, but just don't feel like it right now. Heh.

**Karpo_007** · 08-24-2003, 10:39 PM

Right... Well Quiller-Bee covered it. TMNT made about 3 timesas much money in the Box office, so your VHS is just hype. And Yes, TMNT was a asuccess beacuse it wasn't children's movie. It was PG, and suitable for children but not made for them.

*Tetsu Deinonychus* · 08-24-2003, 11:42 PM

To me, the failure of TMNT2 was it's attempt to combine two completely different TMNT stories:

--The appearence of Rocksteady and Bebop from the old cartoon.

--The Utrom saga from the comics

The problem was that this fusion contained neither Bebop and Rocksteady, nor the Utroms!

Personally those two stories wouldn't have fused that well anyway.

Sparvid · 08-25-2003, 04:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elite5Raph

The costumes do not look the same.. I doesn't anyone remember that chart that JoshBYawn made awhile ago depicting the different versions of the TMNT? If anyone still has that, it'd be nice of you to post it. I've got plenty more to say, but just don't feel like it right now. Heh.

http://www.thetechnodrome.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3331

08-24-2003, 02:49 AM	#21
damnhooligan Mad Scientist Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Dorksville, USA Posts: 1,745	While I agree that the second film wasn't nearly as great as the first (Sheer novelty, I think), I thought it was cute. As much as people love Corey Feldman (Who doesn't?), I really liked Adam Carl as the voice of Donatello. Plus, I found Brian Tochi's voice to be far more controlled and Leo-esque. Something erked me about his voice in the first movie. But otherwise, it felt almost like an entirely different universe from the first. __________________

08-24-2003, 09:00 AM	#23
Krangfan Hench Mutant Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: In a house Posts: 434	How was the script cheesy? __________________ "Home is where you hang your hat" -Krang's favorite phrase Krang owns!

08-24-2003, 09:03 AM	#24
Jephael That whack job behind you Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Carlisle, Pennsylvania Posts: 8,143	As much as I loved this flick, they could've beefed it up alittle more with the fighting and whatnot. __________________ "I like it. Simple, but effective!" Raphael; The Mean Machines - 1988

08-24-2003, 09:39 AM	#26
Cyber Samurai Don Mouser Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 9	my thoughts... re: Shredders helmet getting crushed - My thoughts on this was that his helmet fell off when he fell into the truck and so the empty helmet was crushed. (how he survived is another thing). RE:April. I read/heard somewhere that the first April didn't go down well with the kids and that's why they changed her. Super Shredder was awesome! His action figure was one of the best TMNT figures ever made (albeit a little short/small). The fact that his clothes 'mutated' made no sense, but oh well. My fave line was when Mikey said; "a little too Raph" TMNT II was the best film IMO.

08-24-2003, 09:59 AM	#28
Shellfox Mad Scientist Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 1,234	1. Tokka and razor were not stupid. THEY WERE INFANTS!!! At least in human terms, for guys who just became intelliginet being able to talk in a day is pretty damn smart! 2. The costumes were better in the second movie, the Henson company refinded them to an art form in the movie so I have no clue how anyone can complain. 3. We never saw the shreddded get crushed in teh first movie jsut hiw helmet. So it is possible he survived. 4. I can't debate V-Ice, that was just a cheap idea to get people to watch the movie. 5. never heard any sound effects. 6. Keno wasn't a bad addition, yes he was diffrent, but he added much needed martial arts action since the suits naturally impeded some moves. 7. I can't say I cared about Casey, since the fight took place over 3 days or so, its not a big deal that they didn't go find and/or mention him. 8. So they didn't use their weapons, you act like its the greatest offence in teh world. Had they not been wearing their heads, I'd be mad, but weapons, thats hardly a reason to not like a movie All in all 2 is my favorite of the 3 movies, its probblly the best blend of action and comidy they did. __________________ We're americans, We build Monster Trucks for fun! Imagin what we'll build when you piss us off!!- Christopher Titus

08-24-2003, 04:06 AM	#22
Karpo_007 Inactive Moderator Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Finland Posts: 8,798	Well the fact that it's a kids movie do justify the lack of weapons, goofy fights sound effects, and maybe even the REturn of the Shredder the way he did. But it really doesn't justify the cheesy script. There are children's movies with good script too.

08-24-2003, 09:45 AM	#27
~~Leo656~~ Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: nWo Country Posts: 27,703	I always preferred to think of it as Shredder's helmet getting crushed... cuz after a fall from that height it's actually pretty likely that his helmet would fall off. That it would land in the garbage truck.... that's a bit of a stretch but not altogether impossible. Shredders' return wasn't all that implausible if you remember that it is, in fact, a movie and that all people in movies are a bit more durable than they would be in real life. And yes, CSD, Super-Shredder did indeed rule the universe. Not for anything he actually did... just cuz it was Nash. The fact that his clothes mutated made no sense, indeed, but... well neither did Nash letting Hogan pin him after a poke to the chest with his finger. Nash bends the laws of physics and reality. Cuz he's God, and God can do that.

08-24-2003, 10:01 AM	#29
Karpo_007 Inactive Moderator Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Finland Posts: 8,798	Well even if he was in the crusher without his helmet, he would have still died. Grabage crusher does not that much space. But compared to everything else, it is still a minor detail.

08-24-2003, 10:04 AM	#30
Quiller-Bee Hench Mutant Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: The Hive - Quadrant 2, Sector 7 Posts: 264	Not all kids necessarily like things that have been dumbed-down and "kiddified", especially when they have something else to compare it to, such as the first movie or the Mirage comics. My parents dropped my two younger sisters and me off at the theater to see TMNT II. Going in, our hopes were high from the precedent that had been set in TMNT I. Walking out of the movie was a totally different story for me. Yes, we were kids, but I knew right then that we'd been ripped off big time. (To be honest, I was flat-out depressed after seeing it.) It was obvious that the movie had been "kidded-down" considerably from the first. Like many of you, some of the things that bugged the living crap outta me were: 1.) No Casey. 2.) No use of weapons. 3.) No usage of the term "Damn!" on Raph or anyone else's part. 4.) The addition of the annoying and, in retrospect, completely useless Keno. (Okay, maybe not completely useless. I just didn't like 'im.) 5.) No Casey. 6.) Rahzar - I thought Tokka looked pretty cool at the time, but Rahzar struck me as being a big, goofy reject from the backalley of Sesame Street. 7.) I'm going to be honest here and admit that both my sisters and I were young enough to actually think that Vanilla Ice was cool at that point in time. (My God, I look back and cringe . . . .) Still, the whole "Ninja Rap" routine was simply lame. 8.) Super Shredder . . . his severely disappointing lack of screen time; the fact that he lived such a brief time after his mutation; the fact that in his normal human form, Shredder survived FALLING from a ROOFTOP and being CRUSHED by a GARBAGE TRUCK, but colapsing LUMBER could KILL the SUPER SHREDDER. Gyahd!!! NnnNN - F** ME!!!* (Okay . . . woops . . . >ahem< . . . I thought I'd laid that all to rest in therapy. Guess not. Heh-heh.) 9.) No friggin' Casey. As for Paige Turco's replacement of Judith Hoag as April, it bothered me for about five seconds, but I was quickly able to get past that with little trouble. Like Leo, the fact that she was hotter than Hoag won me over. (Hey, say what you will, but boys will be boys . . . even before puberty turns us into total hormonal maniacs.) In closing, we were at TMNT II on its opening weekend. It left such a bad taste in our mouths that by the time TMNT III was released, we waited for it to come out on video. __________________ May you get to Heaven an hour before the Devil knows you're dead.

08-24-2003, 02:22 PM	#32
Sparvid Stone Warrior Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Östersund, Sweden Posts: 860	Two things I haven't seen mentioned yet: Even if Keno is irritating himself, something even more annoying is his lines when he fights / jumps around, which were clearly dubbed in afterwards. The Foot soldiers becomes really incompetent! If these guys really are the best well-trained youths in NY, I wonder how bad fighters the rest of them must be...

08-24-2003, 05:03 PM	#34
J Legault Mad Scientist Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: West Coast Posts: 2,054	Not this again...The sequal might be off balance but i don't see anything bad in it. sure it contains Comedy but nothing wrong to me. If it did awful howcome on the back of my VHS Box said better than the First. Now here are my options: The April Charater was play be a different actress but I didn't notice anything about that. Notice The company was T.G.R.I. while the true letters were TCRI. Same techno company that created the ooze exspect it didn't had any Utroms in it. I don't mind Keno at all. I guess the movie needed someone pasides danny to be the Kid charater. Nothing wrong with a Japenese Kid in it. The costumes look like the ones from the original only design differently. Shredder's Costume had a differnet Visor and Helmit. Tokka and Rahzar, yes two dumb Mutated animal they don't bother me ether so some of you might as well let that past. When I first saw the movie on Video I didn't even know who Vanilla Ice is. Sorry but it's true. On a different Topic Karpo007 said that the Original one was too serios for younger viewers. Then why does my vHs said the Term Family on it then now if parent went to stupid enough to tell new Line what to do then maybe today you all would say better thing about it. i don't care what you you what's wrong with the sequal, They are still my favorite. and there's no Wrong thing about it. __________________ I am a fan of TMNT and I'm still one today. I got into the habbit back in 1992 or 93' when I was little. I would like to thank my 2 year older cousin for getting me in the habbit. 2001 was when I revised my knowledge on TMNT. And today I'm a bigger fan than I was years ago. I have all 3 TMNT Movies, current Toon, and old school Toon on DVD.

08-24-2003, 06:19 PM	#35
Jephael That whack job behind you Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Carlisle, Pennsylvania Posts: 8,143	I couldn't have said it better myself! __________________ "I like it. Simple, but effective!" Raphael; The Mean Machines - 1988

08-24-2003, 06:26 PM	#36
Quiller-Bee Hench Mutant Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: The Hive - Quadrant 2, Sector 7 Posts: 264	Nobody's saying that you're wrong, man. Your opinion is your opinion, and that's fine . . . and the same goes for those of us who weren't crazy about II or III. That having been said, here are a few more of my own: The reason the back of your VHS box says that II is better than the first is a little thing called hype. That's a statement often made in one form or another in regard to a sequel for the sake of marketing . . . a statement that is rarely true. The ticket sales on II didn't begin to approach those of the first movie. Who says movies like the TMNT flicks HAVE to have a kid character? Firstly, the Turtles themselves were close enough to being kids themselves. Secondly, kid characters irritated me even more when I was a kid myself. (When you pretended to be TMNT characters when you were a kid, did you or any of your friends ever say "Word, I wanna be Keno!") Thirdly, I really don't think the fact that Keno was a "Japanese" character had anything to do with the opinions of 99% of those who didn't like 'im. Certainly not for me. As for what Karpo said, I won't insult him by attempting to speak for him, but I'll say this in defense of his comment: I don't think he was saying that the first movie was NOT made for kids at all. It was, by definition, more of a family flick than the second movie in the sense that it had elements aimed at both kids and adults. The second was aimed solely at kids . . . which was exactly why some kids didn't like it. __________________ May you get to Heaven an hour before the Devil knows you're dead.

08-24-2003, 06:36 PM	#37
Dane E5R Mad Scientist Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Topeka, Kansas Posts: 1,602	The costumes do not look the same.. I doesn't anyone remember that chart that JoshBYawn made awhile ago depicting the different versions of the TMNT? If anyone still has that, it'd be nice of you to post it. I've got plenty more to say, but just don't feel like it right now. Heh. __________________ http://www.luckyusshow.com

08-24-2003, 10:39 PM	#38
Karpo_007 Inactive Moderator Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Finland Posts: 8,798	Right... Well Quiller-Bee covered it. TMNT made about 3 timesas much money in the Box office, so your VHS is just hype. And Yes, TMNT was a asuccess beacuse it wasn't children's movie. It was PG, and suitable for children but not made for them.

08-24-2003, 11:42 PM	#39
Tetsu Deinonychus The Iron Dinosaur Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Studio Snowlion HQ Posts: 3,021	To me, the failure of TMNT2 was it's attempt to combine two completely different TMNT stories: --The appearence of Rocksteady and Bebop from the old cartoon. --The Utrom saga from the comics The problem was that this fusion contained neither Bebop and Rocksteady, nor the Utroms! Personally those two stories wouldn't have fused that well anyway. __________________ (Image hosting by Postimage.org) And here's a list of all my old wacky threads!