Ways to improve the Red Sky seasons?

[Prowler]

Originally Posted by Leo656

I kinda liked those seasons, but a lot of it definitely felt like they took one step forward, and then a bunch of steps sideways. A lot of the better ideas weren't given the attention they deserved, and stuff like Carter was crammed in despite nobody really asking for it.

I thought the tone was a welcome change-up, though. They had completely exhausted the "goofy" setting and cartoons like that weren't what was selling by 1994 anyways. I can see why some fans aren't in love with what was a pretty jarring and abrupt shift in tone, but it was literally something they needed to do if they wanted to get those last couple seasons in. The most popular cartoons at that point were almost all "straight" action/adventure cartoons. It felt like the right move, but a little bit too late.

I think it would have been better if they hadn't completely shifted focus to a bunch of new characters right at the end, and rather stayed consistent by using mostly familiar villains slightly updated to fit the more serious vibe. The entire series was a self-reverential nostalgia act by that point, anyways, it couldn't hurt to do the same thing but "played straight" for once. I just think they asked the audience to accept too much change too soon, with the new art style, new music, the Turtles as outcasts again, secondary mutations, new supporting cast, all new villains, completely different sense of action versus humor. It was like you went away for the summer and when you watched the show again, it felt like you missed three or four seasons instead of actually picking up from where it left off.

Yea, in 1993, the show was still an 80s show to the core. I guess that's what you mean with the nostalgia bit. Must have felt like a timewarp to the 80s by some people who had stopped watching years before. And at the time, the 80s were remembered as a cheesy silly era and not fondly remembered like they are these days... although these days people mostly remember the 80s that never really existed. Or just the good parts. Must have been a fun decade, though.

The show obviously didn't fit the mentality of the 90s where people wanted entertainment to be more real and less fantasized. They wanted grunge rock, reality shows and gangsta rap. Not Ninja Turtles and Hulk Hogan anymore.

[CyberCubed]

Batman: TAS starting in 1992 and then the huge Power Ranger fad at the same time was obviously the one-two punch which killed the last of TMNT's popularity at the time.

If by some miracle TMNT survived 1996...it would have been destroyed by 1998 when Pokemon burst onto the scene.

[Prowler]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Batman: TAS starting in 1992 and then the huge Power Ranger fad at the same time was obviously the one-two punch which killed the last of TMNT's popularity at the time.

If by some miracle TMNT survived 1996...it would have been destroyed by 1998 when Pokemon burst onto the scene.

The TMNT popularity peak must have been in 1990, no? First live-action film and the 1990 season with about 50 episodes. Secret of the Ooze was quite a hit as well, so I'm guessing that 1990-1991 was when TMNT was at its peak. I'm sure it was already pretty big by 1989 since the NES game sold about 4M units worldwide(well maybe not all in the same year, but still...) with only the 3 SMB and the 2 Zelda games outselling it.

[Refractive Reflections]

I'll just repost this position of mine:

Originally Posted by Refractive Reflections

From a writing standpoint and considering the direction of the series in 1993 & 1994, the series had to evolve with the changing landscape of cartoons as children's cartoons became more action-based and darker in tone. (I enjoyed the Red Sky tone of the series, but as I've said before I think the bar was set so high in the past seasons that the Red Sky episodes would seem a bit of step back compared to seasons 1-7.)

But anyways...
since the landscape was changing, they had to change with the times and I believe even David Wise himself said the whole chasing Shredder, Krang, and the Technodrome theme was getting old by then, which is the reason for the series having Dregg and ignoring the Technodrome's condition. I think after Season's 8 unimpressive ratings, it would appear to be more of motivation to having something new for the OT Turtles outside of Shredder, Krang, and the Technodrome (even after the darker, Red Sky tone) and use more elements from the more popular kids' shows of the time.

But I agree that the change of villains, tone, and loss of the Channel 6 crew was too abrupt, and should have had a smoother transition throughout Seasons 8 and 9, but that seems a bit difficult with only 8 episodes per season and with a series no longer on the top of viewership ratings.

The second mutations and Carter I didn't mind, and I actually enjoyed the second mutations somewhat since it gave a little more to their adventures on top of defeating the villain with each episode.

I think if Dregg had some backstory to him and wasn't so apparently seen as an imitation to Power Rangers' Zedd, he could have had a more favorable reception. At least the series developed his character into losing his sanity in season 10, and these red sky seasons developed a stronger form of continuity that we hadn't seen since the first and second seasons.

Originally Posted by Prowler

Well, bebop and Rocksteady weren't in season 9, their last episode being "Turtle Trek", season's 8 finale. So whether they got affected or not, it doesn't really matter. Splinter not getting affected was weird, though. But since the mutations were so pointless, I'm glad Splinter got away with it. As for Carter, he accidentally spilled mutagen on his hand as he as leaving the Lair in a rush to help out the Turtles. But hey, at least his mutation saved the Turtles a few times.

I think it was the Turtles' blood (or specifically Donatello's, which was strangely green ), or some bodily fluid (that still had mutating properties? ), since Donatello used a microscope to look at his cells mutating. So it's storywriting "permissible" that Carter spilled the green liquid from the flask onto himself and mutated into having machine-abilities (after touching his motorcycle) since it wasn't the actual Krang mutagen itself.

If it was the actual Krang mutagen itself, Carter would have mutated with another living organism then. But whatever...

[Prowler]

Exactly, Refractive Reflections. The show needed a change, but it should have been gradual and not abrupt. The small number of episodes per season didn't leave them any other choice, though. Maybe they should have began slowly changing things from season 7 or even 6?

You sure it wasn't? I vaguely recall Donatello referring to it as "the leftovers of the mutagen that had mutated us" or something like that. And it was in the first episode of season 9 iirc. It's been some years since I've watched it, but I'm 99% sure he said something like that.

...Man, hard to believe how I still remember plenty of lines from the OT. And I'm not only talking about Raphael's or Krang's funny one-liners. But ordinary dialogue as well. Hell, I still remember every line from "Turtle Tracks" and "Enter: The Shredder".

[sdp]

What was the dominating thing on TV after MMPower Rangers and before Pokemon? I only remember Nickelodeon being very big since it was all I watched, Rugrats and the other Nicktoons dominated my TV. Outside of shows I do remember other fads. I know in other countries like Latin America and Europe Dragon Ball Z was a huge fad during that era but that didn't come to the US until Pokemon. Outside of TV I definitely remember tons of fads at that time from console games to Tamagotchi's which dominated conversations at school.

But yeah while so many changes might've alienated the diminishing fans showing them more of the same would've had a similar outcome in viewership. Sometimes people like to blame specific things on the demise of shows or other properties but those things are usually done to save the show from dying. So yeah many "jumping the shark" moments are actually attempts at last gasps for breath at a dying show and sometimes it works like with Scrappy-Doo and Scooby which you can say what you want about him but he kept the Scooby franchise alive for many years.

[Refractive Reflections]

Originally Posted by Prowler

Exactly, Refractive Reflections. The show needed a change, but it should have been gradual and not abrupt. The small number of episodes per season didn't leave them any other choice, though. Maybe they should have began slowly changing things from season 7 or even 6?

You sure it wasn't? I vaguely recall Donatello referring to it as "the leftovers of the mutagen that had mutated us" or something like that. And it was in the first episode of season 9 iirc. It's been some years since I've watched it, but I'm 99% sure he said something like that.

...Man, hard to believe how I still remember plenty of lines from the OT. And I'm not only talking about Raphael's or Krang's funny one-liners. But ordinary dialogue as well. Hell, I still remember every line from "Turtle Tracks" and "Enter: The Shredder".

Okay , I saw the episode "The Unknown Ninja" and the writers were able to get away with it by saying "studying the mutagen that originally caused us to mutate" and that the "mutagen was becoming more unstable". (aka: anything can happen now ). So because of the mutagen's instability, that's how Carter was able to have those machine-like powers, rather than mutating with another living organism. Clever, but it worked within the laws of the mutagen they created.

[Prowler]

Originally Posted by sdp

What was the dominating thing on TV after MMPower Rangers and before Pokemon? I only remember Nickelodeon being very big since it was all I watched, Rugrats and the other Nicktoons dominated my TV. Outside of shows I do remember other fads. I know in other countries like Latin America and Europe Dragon Ball Z was a huge fad during that era but that didn't come to the US until Pokemon. Outside of TV I definitely remember tons of fads at that time from console games to Tamagotchi's which dominated conversations at school.

But yeah while so many changes might've alienated the diminishing fans showing them more of the same would've had a similar outcome in viewership. Sometimes people like to blame specific things on the demise of shows or other properties but those things are usually done to save the show from dying. So yeah many "jumping the shark" moments are actually attempts at last gasps for breath at a dying show and sometimes it works like with Scrappy-Doo and Scooby which you can say what you want about him but he kept the Scooby franchise alive for many years.

DBZ was HUGE here when I was in elementary/primary school(1996 to 2000). But what's weird is how it was popular with both people born between 1990 and 1993 and also people born in the early/mid 80s. It appealed to both kids and teenagers/young adults. I'm one of the very few people born in my country between 1980 and 1993 who DIDN'T LIKE DBZ. I've only met about 3 other people who were never fans either... and one of them is my brother.

Man, Tamagotchi! I had like 5 of those, but they all died so quickly, especially if you dropped them on the damn ground. Also, fun fact: the first time a big soccer club here signed a Korean player people nicknamed him, guess what, "Tamagotchi". Kinda messed up, but yet funny.

[sdp]

Yeah DBZ was one of those fads that arrived late to the US since it was huge everywhere else in the world. It was the same with Saint Seiya which was also a huge fad in Europe and Latin America before Power Rangers and didn't get to the US until the early 2000's which it didn't get any attention since it was an old 80s anime and the localization/censorship ruined the show. Kind of a shame the US missed out on that as well.

[Prowler]

Originally Posted by sdp

Yeah DBZ was one of those fads that arrived late to the US since it was huge everywhere else in the world. It was the same with Saint Seiya which was also a huge fad in Europe and Latin America before Power Rangers and didn't get to the US until the early 2000's which it didn't get any attention since it was an old 80s anime and the localization/censorship ruined the show. Kind of a shame the US missed out on that as well.

Saint Seiya must have been in the early 90s then. I was too young to possibly remember it. But as an anime fan that likes watching anime from every decade, I've never cared enough to check it out.

The two biggest phenomenons when I was in elementary were DBZ and Pokémon BY FAR. Nothing else came close. Yes, kids would watch the occasional obscure cartoon or the occasional Batman or Spider-Man episode, but weren't crazy about them as they were for Pokémon and DBZ. That's when the anime craze really started here. Before that, anime was mostly popular in France and Italy, which have been translating manga since the 80s. Probably the two biggest markets in Europe for anime/manga.

Btw, was Yu-Gi-Oh ever popular there? I remember some kids playing the card game back in 6th grade but it died pretty quickly. That and Beyblade toys.

[sdp]

I highly recommend Saint Seiya its one of the best action anime if you can put up with 80s anime animation and the music is some of the best, if you like DBZ then this is better in every way except humor. Yu-Gi-Oh rode the Pokemon fad wave and continued once the Pokemon fad went away but it was never as big as Pokemon since it only appealed to boys unlike Pokemon that also appealed to girls and even adults, not to mention it was somewhat similar.

[Prowler]

Originally Posted by sdp

I highly recommend Saint Seiya its one of the best action anime if you can put up with 80s anime animation and the music is some of the best, if you like DBZ then this is better in every way except humor. Yu-Gi-Oh rode the Pokemon fad wave and continued once the Pokemon fad went away but it was never as big as Pokemon since it only appealed to boys unlike Pokemon that also appealed to girls and even adults, not to mention it was somewhat similar.

Well I never liked DBZ, so I doubt I'd enjoy Saint Seiya. Oddly enough, I like One Piece, which is often labeled as the modern DBZ.

A classic shounen I'd like to check out someday is Hokuto no Ken. It was like the first big shounen. It's probably quite outdated, though.

[Wesley]

Well, I first saw season 8 in 1995 and the cartoon was re-run after that ("Turtle Trek" wasn't shown at the time and a repeat of "Enter Krakus" was aired instead for some reason). Seasons nine and ten finally aired in Ireland in 1998. Nine was placed between seven and eight, oddly enough, at that time. I think the red sky seasons were okay, but I prefer the earlier seasons.

Red sky took itself too seriously at times, particularly in 9. 8 was the best red sky season with a good mix of action and comedy. 9 was the worst. Dregg turning the people against the Turtles got boring after a few episodes. 10 was a big improvement, though there were some things left unresolved like Dregg permanently altering Leonardo's structure. Kronos was an interesting character alright. He could've been used again. I thought Carter wasn't that bad (at least he got some character development in the episode "The Showdown".

I liked that Shredder was portrayed as a serious threat for the first time in years, though he was still easily defeated by the Turtles. I also liked that he was shown to care about Krang and able to stand up to Dregg. I liked that April had a more proactive role in episodes like "Cry HAVOC" and "A Turtle in Time". One of Splinter's best quotes is in "Wrath of the Wrath King", which I decided to use as my signature quote.

[Prowler]

You're right, Wesley. Even after fixing him up, Dregg said that his genes were changed forever, making us think that not everything was good yet. That being said, I had no interest in watching their mutations getting unstable. I disliked that angle.

I liked how Dregg was ruthless to the point of killing Hi-Tech and the other aliens in the final episode of the series. He also tried to kill Carter once.

Kind of a shame that the last episode of the series pitted the Turtles against Dregg and not against Shredder and Krang as most would have expected. If you had told anyone in season 3 that Dregg would eventually replace Shredder, people would have laughed at you.

Also, despite Dregg being ruthless, Shredder's "I never bluff!" was by far the most shocking moment of the series.

Not many have watched the Red Sky seasons to this day afaik. So I guess most fans didn't get to know how the OT ended. They probably assumed it just got cancelled or that Shredder and Krang were finally beaten in an anti-climatic way.

[Wesley]

Originally Posted by Prowler

You're right, Wesley. Even after fixing him up, Dregg said that his genes were changed forever, making us think that not everything was good yet. That being said, I had no interest in watching their mutations getting unstable. I disliked that angle.

I liked how Dregg was ruthless to the point of killing Hi-Tech and the other aliens in the final episode of the series. He also tried to kill Carter once.

Kind of a shame that the last episode of the series pitted the Turtles against Dregg and not against Shredder and Krang as most would have expected. If you had told anyone in season 3 that Dregg would eventually replace Shredder, people would have laughed at you.

Also, despite Dregg being ruthless, Shredder's "I never bluff!" was by far the most shocking moment of the series.

Not many have watched the Red Sky seasons to this day afaik. So I guess most fans didn't get to know how the OT ended. They probably assumed it just got cancelled or that Shredder and Krang were finally beaten in an anti-climatic way.

I agree that Shredder's "I never bluff!" was the most shocking moment. I also agree that most fans probably didn't know how the OT ended (they just remember the earlier seasons). I was glad that the secondary mutations were written out early on in season ten.

[ABrown]

Personally, I loved the "red sky" seasons and wish that the whole series had been in that style. When the original cartoon was in its early seasons (1987-1989), I didn't initially find it the least bit entertaining. But when the first movie came out in 1990, I absolutely loved it. That movie was what made me a fan of the TMNT, and that's why I began to watch the cartoon. However, from 1992-1995, my interests had changed to video games and sports as kids my age were getting older and didn't find action cartoons to be our passion any longer.

Then in 1996, I rediscovered the TMNT cartoon and what it had become. I couldn't have been more impressed with the show's new style. It was exactly what I wished that the cartoon had been 5-6 year earlier when I was 9-10 years old. I think the red sky seasons had better animation and very entertaining story arcs. I only wish that the red sky characters (Dregg, Hi-Tech, Mung, Carter, etc.) had getten toy releases.

[Prowler]

Does a cartoon suddenly changing tone happen often like the OT did? I mean, change of tone or not, it was hard for people to suddenly start taking the TMNT seriously. Especially when they kept cracking jokes during Red Sky and pretending to act badass.

The 4kids show had a great balance of humor, action and drama.

[Wesley]

Originally Posted by ABrown

Personally, I loved the "red sky" seasons and wish that the whole series had been in that style. When the original cartoon was in its early seasons (1987-1989), I didn't initially find it the least bit entertaining. But when the first movie came out in 1990, I absolutely loved it. That movie was what made me a fan of the TMNT, and that's why I began to watch the cartoon. However, from 1992-1995, my interests had changed to video games and sports as kids my age were getting older and didn't find action cartoons to be our passion any longer.

Then in 1996, I rediscovered the TMNT cartoon and what it had become. I couldn't have been more impressed with the show's new style. It was exactly what I wished that the cartoon had been 5-6 year earlier when I was 9-10 years old. I think the red sky seasons had better animation and very entertaining story arcs. I only wish that the red sky characters (Dregg, Hi-Tech, Mung, Carter, etc.) had getten toy releases.

I loved the red sky seasons as well when I was growing up because I liked that those seasons were darker and edgier than the goofier ones. I actually preferred red sky when I was a teenager, though a lot of its flaws are apparent when watching it as an adult. I now like both the earlier seasons and red sky. I thought Dregg was crazy in season ten, as he was willing to turn the Earth into another sun, sacrificing himself in the process as well. He would've killed Shredder and Krang in "Turtles to the Second Power" if the Turtles hadn't showed up just in time. I agree that there were some great story arcs.

Originally Posted by Prowler

Does a cartoon suddenly changing tone happen often like the OT did? I mean, change of tone or not, it was hard for people to suddenly start taking the TMNT seriously. Especially when they kept cracking jokes during Red Sky and pretending to act badass.

The 4kids show had a great balance of humor, action and drama.

Well, the 4kids show did change its tone suddenly after season five. Anyway, I agree that it was hard to take red sky seriously. However, I first watched season eight when I was 8 and the first episode blew me away. I really thought red sky was badass at the time, but watching it as an adult, it was a fake darkness. The 2003 series was much better, but it was good for its time, in my opinion. I actually don't mind that the characters kept saying funny one-liners in red sky because I think it showed that that they weren't afraid no matter what dangerous situation they were in.

[Prowler]

I found Red Sky edgy as a kid too, and I thought it looked promising. It made me believe that the Turtles would kill Shredder in the last episode... boy I was so naïve

[Wesley]

Originally Posted by Prowler

I found Red Sky edgy as a kid too, and I thought it looked promising. It made me believe that the Turtles would kill Shredder in the last episode... boy I was so naïve

I agree that red sky looked promising. I think "Get Shredder" was a great opening episode, but the other episodes weren't as good. It had potential. The story arcs and characters could've been better written. The Turtles did seem really determined to capture Shredder in most of season eight, though they appeared to change their minds in "Turtle Trek".