Does each iteration have their own 80's dimension?

[Cryomancer]

If you wanna nerd out about this stuff the better questions are (in my opinion):

Does the anime count as part of the old cartoon or it's own thing? It certainly seems to think it's part of the cartoon.
Are there more than one, or only one each, Battle Nexus and Cudley? I prefer to think there are only one of each. Same question could apply to Lord Simultaneous and Renet, but there is probably more evidence that they have per-universe incarnations.

If you absolutely need the various crossovers with the old cartoon to be different from each other, then maybe they're really from one of the video games or the Archie comics or whatever else spun off from the show. Hell, is there a Playmates universe too?

[Leo656]

Most of those aren't too difficult to answer.

Yes, there's a Playmates universe, because all the characters' origins are completely contradictory form how they're presented in every other version, and some even look totally different. Like Ace Duck. For every day of the week, there's a different Ace Duck. Likewise, the Archie comic immediately took a left and deviated wildly from the FW cartoon from then on, so that's a whole separate universe, too.

Cudley and the Battle Nexus get a little bit tricky. The Mirage Nexus and the 2K3 Nexus seemed to be different from each other. Cudley, meanwhile... see, this is where you get into "Booster Gold" territory. Whenever you have a character that can travel through time AND space, AND to parallel realities, even if it's ONE singular "person", they're creating parallel alternate versions of themselves constantly. So, I think there's only "one" Cudley, but it's tough to say which one is appearing at any given point. Also, I Like Cudley.

The other stuff can best be solved by asking, "Do they contradict/reference each other?" The FW cartoon never mentions the events of the anime - naturally - but the events that took place were semi-noteworthy, so it's easy enough to say that was another parallel universe. Renet and Savanti, meanwhile... *similar* versions of each appeared in both Mirage and 2K3, playing out a similar string of events, BUT, there were some differences, and neither one ever referenced having gone through all of this before in another reality. So, once again, I'm going to have to say it was a different Renet and Savanti in 2K3 than Mirage. Just like New 52 Booster Gold is an entirely different guy than the "real" one. They're both Michael John Carter from the future, but from entirely different parallel timelines/alternate Earths, so they're NOT the same person even a little bit. They Are But They Totally Are Not, and they each travel into the past/future/parallel of THEIR Earth, not the other's.

So yeah, good questions but not super-tough.

[pferreira]

If the FW Turtles are brought back I hope it's how they're shown in Nick's FW Turtles episode and not Turtles Forever.

[oldmanwinters]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Most of those aren't too difficult to answer.

Yes, there's a Playmates universe, because all the characters' origins are completely contradictory form how they're presented in every other version, and some even look totally different. Like Ace Duck. For every day of the week, there's a different Ace Duck. Likewise, the Archie comic immediately took a left and deviated wildly from the FW cartoon from then on, so that's a whole separate universe, too.

Cudley and the Battle Nexus get a little bit tricky. The Mirage Nexus and the 2K3 Nexus seemed to be different from each other. Cudley, meanwhile... see, this is where you get into "Booster Gold" territory. Whenever you have a character that can travel through time AND space, AND to parallel realities, even if it's ONE singular "person", they're creating parallel alternate versions of themselves constantly. So, I think there's only "one" Cudley, but it's tough to say which one is appearing at any given point. Also, I Like Cudley.

The other stuff can best be solved by asking, "Do they contradict/reference each other?" The FW cartoon never mentions the events of the anime - naturally - but the events that took place were semi-noteworthy, so it's easy enough to say that was another parallel universe. Renet and Savanti, meanwhile... *similar* versions of each appeared in both Mirage and 2K3, playing out a similar string of events, BUT, there were some differences, and neither one ever referenced having gone through all of this before in another reality. So, once again, I'm going to have to say it was a different Renet and Savanti in 2K3 than Mirage. Just like New 52 Booster Gold is an entirely different guy than the "real" one. They're both Michael John Carter from the future, but from entirely different parallel timelines/alternate Earths, so they're NOT the same person even a little bit. They Are But They Totally Are Not, and they each travel into the past/future/parallel of THEIR Earth, not the other's.

So yeah, good questions but not super-tough.

Attack of the Multiverse!

[Metalwolf]

Originally Posted by Bry

Except that's actually the case, in real life. Every cartoon, movie, video game, toy, etc, are all products of a comic book. The comic came first, and everything else spun out of it. Turtles Forever just acknowledged that in-story.

Besides, the universes were all restored in the end, so... what's the problem?



Maybe the problem isn't so much that plot point from the movie, but an issue you have with these kinds of crossovers in general? It's a very comic book kind of thing -- hell, right now you can barely buy a Marvel/DC superhero comic without getting an alternate-worlds crossover story involving universes being destroyed or resurrected or both. It's really a "your mileage may vary" kind of thing... some people hate that stuff, some people love it.

Maybe try to look at it a different way - the movie acknowledged that the Mirage comics are the source of the entire multiverse, which is fair and makes sense. But it made a point to show that every version spinning out of it is equally "real" and valid. That's usually the point behind these kind of stories (well, the good ones, anyway): despite where they originated from, every alternate universe is equally "real" in its own story, so that shouldn't take anything away from your enjoyment unless you choose to let it.

The plot is really clever if you get on board. Theres's a reason 2003 Shredder didn't attack the Mirage universe during "Return to New York" or "City at War" or any other point in their history... the only way for him to destroy the entire TMNT multiverse (IE, franchise) was to literally destroy the events of the first-ever comic, the thing that made it all possible. And he failed, thanks to a team-up with the longest-running, arguably most-beloved versions of those characters in the '87 and 2003 cartoon. Everything was restored, their worlds were saved, and they all parted on terms of mutual respect and brotherhood. I will always, always unequivocally love that, and I'd hate to get so caught up on one specific detail that I'd totally miss the big important point at the end.

While the whole idea might feel clever and innovative to you, your argument is hinged on one fatal flaw, in that there are some of us that don't want everything to be connected to each other nor to be a multiverse. No amount of saying how good the idea of a multiverse is will work when one sees it as nothing but pointless fan wank designed to get the maximum amount of nerd-gasms per page.


I will be blunt: Turtles Forever missed a fat opportunity to expand the Turtles lore in a big way because it chose to retread old ground rather then do something great. It could have used the 'Forever' moniker to show the Turtles as adults moving forward with their lives and taking on Ch'rell one last time, showing something poignant and meaningful, instead of a movie that ultimately makes no expansion on lore other then introducing the rather needless idea of a 'multiverse.' Half of the comic franchises out there have multiverses, they aren't special. But this thing, it could have been, if only they would have forgone the nostalgia trip for the sake of a few fans and shown what would've been newish territory. I know there are a few stories where it shows them as adults, but this would have been more 'public' and made it more acceptable to see the Turtles as something other then perpetual kiddy fare. Plus, it gives 'permission' of each iteration to show the adult version of the TMNT, allowing for that version to eventually introduce story ideas and character developments not possible when they were still teenagers.

[Leo656]

Again, looking at the Small Picture and not the Big Picture.

"Fan Wank." No... It's the only half-decent way to explain why there's a ton of contradictory versions of something. Even if they never touch each other. It's a way to compartmentalize and keep things simple. Period.

It's just a word. Don't over-think this stuff. It's a word used to explain WHY when kids ask why. As in, "Why don't these two TMNT cartoons have anything in common?" "Simple, they're just different worlds, different 'universes'. They're similar but different." "Oh, okay."

The alternative to having parallel universes all co-existing? "Well, we threw out that old version because it was junk. Never Think Of It Again, only the New version matters." Well, that's horrible and that's also not the way things work. Every version is someone's favorite. So saying it "just doesn't exist anymore" is supremely insulting to Those Fans, while saying "It still exists out there... somewhere" at least doesn't tell them that the thing they preferred was thrown out like trash simply for being Out Of Date.

Don't let the big scary word overshadow the reason WHY it's a tool writers use.

[Myko]

Creators don't really decide to make something a multiverse. If there are different incarnations of something that aren't connected or in continuity with eachother you automatically get a multiverse: different versions of the same thing. Creators can however decide to create stories where characters travel between these versions.

You could however argue that the FW segments of 2003 and Nick are separate from the OT, since they aren't produced at the same time by the same people as the OT episodes. So they are minor variations on that universe.

Originally Posted by Leo656

The alternative to having parallel universes all co-existing? "Well, we threw out that old version because it was junk. Never Think Of It Again, only the New version matters."

Also, once something has been produced and released it exists. There's no way to erase it.

[Bry]

So, to answer the original question:

Originally Posted by Leo656

Cudley, meanwhile... see, this is where you get into "Booster Gold" territory. Whenever you have a character that can travel through time AND space, AND to parallel realities, even if it's ONE singular "person", they're creating parallel alternate versions of themselves constantly. So, I think there's only "one" Cudley, but it's tough to say which one is appearing at any given point. Also, I Like Cudley.

I love Cudley. I keep hoping that he'll turn up again at some point, preferably the exact same version from the Archie comics as a nod along these lines.

Originally Posted by Metalwolf

While the whole idea might feel clever and innovative to you, your argument is hinged on one fatal flaw, in that there are some of us that don't want everything to be connected to each other nor to be a multiverse. No amount of saying how good the idea of a multiverse is will work when one sees it as nothing but pointless fan wank designed to get the maximum amount of nerd-gasms per page.

But that's not a "fatal flaw" at all. That's just your personal preference. Not an objective truth. Why are your opinions or preferences any more valid than anyone else's?

Like, listen. I'm a comics reader, so I'll use this an example: I like the DC Universe a lot, but I've been largely turned off of it since the New 52 reboot. I don't want the characters I loved to be wiped out of current continuity and their histories to tossed out. I don't want Barry Allen to replace Wally West again. But it still happened. There's nothing I can do about it. It's published, it "counts", even if I don't like it. So... what am I gonna do? Continually make a big stink over something existing that I don't personally enjoy? I mean, criticism is fine, but at the point where I'm basically pouting over it having happened? It already did! I had to do what everyone else in this kind of situation had to do: accept it, move on, and focus on the stuff I do enjoy.

The beauty of the TMNT multiverse is that, aside from a few, very rare crossovers like Turtles Forever, you can basically forget about it if you want to. Turtles Forever doesn't, or at least shouldn't, impact your enjoyment of the '87 cartoon. If you don't like it, just pretend it didn't happen. That's what head-canon is for. It's all media for your enjoyment, so enjoy it however you want to.

The problem here seems to be that some folks are so precious about their personal preferences that they need them "officially" confirmed, or just can't accept it when the "official" version goes against them.

Originally Posted by Metalwolf

I will be blunt: Turtles Forever missed a fat opportunity to expand the Turtles lore in a big way because it chose to retread old ground rather then do something great. It could have used the 'Forever' moniker to show the Turtles as adults moving forward with their lives and taking on Ch'rell one last time, showing something poignant and meaningful, instead of a movie that ultimately makes no expansion on lore other then introducing the rather needless idea of a 'multiverse.'

...okay? I'm certainly not opposed to that, but it's an entirely different concept than what Turtles Forever was designed to be. It was a big anniversary special specifically made to look backward at the history of the property and connect it all together. It was designed to be "fan wank". And there's nothing wrong with that - plenty of so-called "fan wank" can and has been be great on its own merits.

They've written comics stories along the lines of what you're pitching here. They exist already. If you want another one, I dunno, write a fanfic or something. But you keep making the assertion that Turtles Forever was a "mistake" somehow because it wasn't written for you, by your own subjective, personal standards. And that just doesn't make sense.

[Metalwolf]

Originally Posted by Bry

But that's not a "fatal flaw" at all. That's just your personal preference. Not an objective truth. Why are your opinions or preferences any more valid than anyone else's?

But that's the thing. I (and others) state that we don't like Turtles Forever for various reasons, and we have people on here telling us how our opinions are mistaken and that Turtles Forever is somehow a masterpiece. We get called FW crybabies and such whenever we object to the way the FW Turtles cry and joke in ways that not even they did in the goofiest era of the show. Some of us don't like the connected multiverse concept in general, because we've seen the results in comics and we just didn't like it.

Originally Posted by Bry

Like, listen. I'm a comics reader, so I'll use this an example: I like the DC Universe a lot, but I've been largely turned off of it since the New 52 reboot. I don't want the characters I loved to be wiped out of current continuity and their histories to tossed out. I don't want Barry Allen to replace Wally West again. But it still happened. There's nothing I can do about it. It's published, it "counts", even if I don't like it. So... what am I gonna do? Continually make a big stink over something existing that I don't personally enjoy? I mean, criticism is fine, but at the point where I'm basically pouting over it having happened? It already did! I had to do what everyone else in this kind of situation had to do: accept it, move on, and focus on the stuff I do enjoy.

Yes, you might not like it, but by approving of a connected multiverse n TMNT, it's pretty much bringing that iteration destroying stuff over to this one. Thing is, if they aren't connected, most iterations are safe as without a specific say so or action on any particular one, they are always perpetually 'canon.' However, by connecting them you risk some corporate entity deciding that the whole multiverse is is a pain in the ass to keep up with, so they will wipe out whole groups of iterations out of canon to 'simplify' things. That is what is happening to Marvel's 52. And by approving of the connected multiverse in TMNT, you'll also have to accept your favorite iteration being erased if the higher-ups want to make it 'streamlined'. Are you prepared to accept it if some corporate bigwig decides that 5-10 years in the future he wants to Marvel 52 the whole TMNT multiverse?

Originally Posted by Bry

The beauty of the TMNT multiverse is that, aside from a few, very rare crossovers like Turtles Forever, you can basically forget about it if you want to. Turtles Forever doesn't, or at least shouldn't, impact your enjoyment of the '87 cartoon. If you don't like it, just pretend it didn't happen. That's what head-canon is for. It's all media for your enjoyment, so enjoy it however you want to..

But we can't forget it. Some of us would like it to be a take-it-or-leave-it scenario where it isn't officially declared to be canon, but you can include it in your own personal headcanon if you want. Some of us try to pretend that it doesn't exist, but if we said that on here, we get tons of TF defenders telling us that we should just 'accept' the movie, even if we don't like it.

Originally Posted by Bry

The problem here seems to be that some folks are so precious about their personal preferences that they need them "officially" confirmed, or just can't accept it when the "official" version goes against them..

But that's what you pro-TF forever guys are doing. You 'need' the movie to tell you that all iterations exist, that they are all equally relevant, and that nothing will change that. For those of us that don't like the movie, we don't need that. To us, the iterations exist period because they are physically here in some form and they are talked about and referenced.

Originally Posted by Bry

...okay? I'm certainly not opposed to that, but it's an entirely different concept than what Turtles Forever was designed to be. It was a big anniversary special specifically made to look backward at the history of the property and connect it all together. It was designed to be "fan wank". And there's nothing wrong with that - plenty of so-called "fan wank" can and has been be great on its own merits.

They've written comics stories along the lines of what you're pitching here. They exist already. If you want another one, I dunno, write a fanfic or something. But you keep making the assertion that Turtles Forever was a "mistake" somehow because it wasn't written for you, by your own subjective, personal standards. And that just doesn't make sense.

I just threw that out because those comics that reference the future aren't a major push for having TV show stories of the Turtles evolving beyond teenager-hood. Sure we have SAINW, but that was a future that never really existed, while I'm talking about stories that are 'canon' that carry the Turtles beyond into new territory.

[Ninjinister]

Multiple versions of one incarnation? That'd make the Wiki a nightmare.

I only see one incarnation as doing this - Mirage. One version where Ch'rell showed up, and as it exists in the comics.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

If so, it's pointless to create that movie and episode because Turtles Forever is supposed to be 2003 meets 1987, not 2003 meets a 1987 parody, the same with Wormquake (2012 and 1987).

[Cryomancer]

I can't even remember now, TF didn't end with a "and now no one will remember this", did it? As in, things where changed/happened in those continuities that in theory would continue from there? Like are we supposed to think the Mirage turtles remember this weird battle involving a bunch of alternate selves happening right at the start of their career? Would 2k3 Mikey look forward to the others finding the Battle Nexus so he could attempt to beat them, too?

[Powder]

In my mind, they woke up the next day having no memory of the incident.

[Metalwolf]

Originally Posted by Cryomancer

I can't even remember now, TF didn't end with a "and now no one will remember this", did it? As in, things where changed/happened in those continuities that in theory would continue from there? Like are we supposed to think the Mirage turtles remember this weird battle involving a bunch of alternate selves happening right at the start of their career? Would 2k3 Mikey look forward to the others finding the Battle Nexus so he could attempt to beat them, too?

It never had anything like that- they still remembered everything, plus the 80's Technodrome never was shown to lose any of the upgrading Ch'rell did to it. Hence why I wondered if each iteration had it's own 80's dimension, since this upgrading should have appeared somewhere, Krang and the Turtles should have mentioned something, and it would be really out of character for Shredder and Krang to willingly abandon such higher level technologies or whatever could give them an advantage, even if they were created or bestowed by a rival alien.

Taken as something happening to 2k3's 80's Turtle dimension it works perfectly, trying to fit it to the 80's Turtle dimension will make it massively contradict on-screen canon, as nothing 'Forever' shows up or is hinted anywhere up to the last episode of the last season.

[BubblyShell22]

Nope, none of them have their own 80's dimension. There is only one 80's dimension just as there is one Nick dimension and so forth. I like the multiverse theory because it makes sense since there are so many different incarnations of TMNT, which TF confirmed. It's the best way to explain why so many universes are different and I really hope the Nick show will expand on it as well and I think they will.