Official Episode Discussion S4 Ep 18: Mutant Gangland

[myconius]

i've been absolutely loving the new direction and tone of Season 4 !!!
hard to believe its part of the the same Season as 'Turtles in Space'.
getting excited about this series again.

[NinjaMan]

The way splinter was talking was making me sad. Best episode of the season.

[ToTheNines]

Originally Posted by Powder

Dare I say best episode of the season...? YES! Everything I want in a TMNT episode right here. Action, gut-busting laughs, high-octane violence, mafia goons, Rist & Feldman reunited, it goes on. Leonardo was drinking Ramune! No over the top April/Karai powers, just pure awesome from the mutants we know & love, facing ideal foes. Mutanimals aside, it felt a bit like Mirage in tone. Wonderful array of voice talent.

It was sooooo good. I haven't been feeling the last few episodes too much, but my hype level is back at 100% now.

I feel the same! The pacing finally felt natural, too. It had been so rushed and jumbled for so long.

Anyone catch the Dr. Feral reference? Hope he shows up, it'd be so cool to have a Palladium character in the show.

I feel like an old Naughty Dog employee works on the show now lol. The Hammer (funny Stallone pastiche) looked like he was rocking an N. Gin suit from Crash Bandicoot, and Vizioso totally reminded me of Krew in his little hover thingy.

[2K3]

Gotta say, that was a fun episode; couldn't help but noticed the resemblance to a X-Men/ Gargoyles: Goliath Chronicles Episode (Heck the goons kinda reminded me of the Quarrymen as well!)

1) I'm all for Mondo Gecko replacing Pigeon Pete; just wish they had a better explanation that just "We don't talk 'bout Pigeon Pete anymore".
2) The battle formation Rockwell, Leatherhead and Slash made reminded me of the "Flight Formation" from "Sonic Heroes" (please tell me you can see it).
3) Looking forward to seeing more of Don Vizioso and his mafia. They make a good "3rd group" to the Foot Clan and Purple Dragons.

[Ninturtle]

This episode was mediocre to me, none of the jokes landed to me and Don Visiosos chair was way too goofy. I liked seeing the Mutanimals again and I like how Petes death was implied but the rest of the episode was just alright.
Edit: Splinter was also great in this episode.

[PApagreg]

huh this episode seems to be getting a lot of praise, time to be the turd in the punch bowl I guess

Pros: Good fight scenes, Inclusion of human enemies, and an interesting plot

Cons: Why do we need another episode of "Raph being angry and leaving the team" I agree with Donnie get a new song and dance, Why does this episode have lesson why could't it be "The mob is making anti mutagen weapons so we are going to sabotage their whole operation" with no lesson at the end, it feels as if this show can't have an episode without some lesson. Also why is Mondo Gecko here, the others would be better off making a wallet out of him or eating him. Why did Leo decide to confront the Don face to face instead of getting him when he doesn't have his guards on him not really ninja like, seriously even Spiderman would know getting the boss alone would be a good idea. Also why does every scene we have with the Don hes stuffing his face, okay we get it he's fat its not really funny or interesting.

2/5 for this episode

[The Happy One]

Originally Posted by Powder

That's just my opinion, mind you. I'd hate for someone to get their hopes up only to be disappointed as we may share different tastes. But yeah I have nothing to complain about whatsoever. Mad good.

It's all mafia stuff right now. No sign of Shredder or his affiliates in this episode.

Well you didn't get my hopes up for nothing! This episode was great!! Lots of action true to this series right from the beginning and enough humor to keep it going, too!

The dialogue was great, especially when it came to Raph.

And the new characters were flawless!

[GoldMutant]

Hm... much better than expected indeed. One of the best this season, but it's still not saying much.

Credit where credit is due, Vizioso's gang was entertaining. Makes me wonder why they weren't fully utilized more due to having Brian Bloom for so long on the cast with the television characters. Special mention though to The Hammer, especially due to mutants needing to go extinct:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLEfuPAZ0F8

The action knows when to cut at the proper times, making it feel much darker in terms of story, especially when Rockwell sends some of the gang down onto a car. Only minor complaint here is just how Hammer was defeated; not as silly as Tiger Claw hit by the Dragon's Tail, but I kinda hoped for a different method of victory. For what it was though, the action is the episode's strong point yet again outside character. Not as good as City at War for me, but still relatively solid.

Speaking of character though, they all work... almost. The group bounces off each other well in the first lair scene, there's moments of foreshadowing (Pete's dead? Splinter dying again?), ultimately the characters work well. Todd Casey does a good job in terms of comedy while keeping the drama up, give him another episode to write please. However, there is two characters I don't feel he nailed perfectly.

Where I'm not impressed by him is Raphael yet again. He wasn't that bad mind you, but am I the only one who felt he was too angry again? It felt too much like Clash of the Mutanimals; no, not the out of character anger, but too similar in what happens. We get a cold scene of the Mutanimals fighting someone without reason, then switch to the lair where Raph is angry, commence the plot from that anger. Although here it's better due to the characterizations, especially Don's fake crying, it still feels the same personally, except it's Don Vizioso instead of Shredder in the center.

Personally, I didn't fully like Mondo here either. If he was taken in by the Mutanimals for his "skills," why didn't they train him based on his last appearances, especially Annihilation: Earth!? I get Mondo is in over his head like Timothy was prior to mutation, but shouldn't he be trained? It's the third time he got his tail kicked and it's a bit irritating (though the snow angel and Rist... ). Not fully bad, just not my forte.

Lastly, for "anti-mutant weapons," why didn't they do damage to Leatherhead in the final fight compared to Don and Raph? Seems weird due to the synopsis.

It's solidly paced all the way through regardless, but it seems weird for this to be here so late in the series. Obviously for Vizioso to claim NYC for himself with Shredder down (for now... ), but otherwise I do feel it could've been executed in season 3 too. Overall, decent episode; now then, give us more of the mafia.

6 out of 10 as my final rating as of now.

[NinjaMan]

Really like how the mutanimals are like extended family members to the turtles. Hope they show up for an all out battle against the foot. Also makes me wonder if splinter and shredder will both die at the end of this season.

[Bitsy83]

Huh. Interesting episode.

Well, of COURSE we get a Sly Stallone-esque character. It's always him, Arnold Schwartzenager, or Clint Eastwood when they're impersonating tough guys (Bruce Lee not included).

It's nice to see their addressing the "Mutants aren't welcomed" angle, but I hope they go more into it. This Doc Fallon (I think that was the name) has definitely piqued my interest. He'll probably be the Bishop of this show...or a total ripoff of Frankenstein or the Reanimator. (Oh, GOD I hope they don't go the Reanimator route. I still get nightmares about the head...)

Man, Donnie has just NOT been doing well this season, has he? Are they trying to do issue #44 very vaguely or what? And having him shiver like that in the hotel just seemed....a BIT OOC. I mean, I know Donnie's not the strongest dude on the team, but I'd like to think he'd stare death in the face a little bit more than that. Unless that was Mondo shaking them both.

And Raph getting mad.

And quitting.

And blaming Leo for being too soft.

Again.



Ok, I'm going on a VERY small rant here, but I want you guys to know I still like this show and I do want it to last at least one more season (if Nick doesn't milk it too dry), but Raph really needs better character development stories. I know a lot of people hate her, but I felt Mona Lisa kinda helps him with that. He was willing to choose the pacifistic route on Thalos 3 when he tried to make an alliance with her and Sal Commander. He just acts calmer when he's around her. Also, when she declared her love for him, it gave him the confidence he needed. I'm tired of just seeing Raph mad or scared. It's nice to see him concerned, calm, and thinking things through and those only seem to happen when she's around. So if the rumors are true and she'll either appear at the end of season 4 or beginning of season 5, I hope we see some better Raph stories.

There's really not much else to say but I hope they continue the mutant outcast story, I want to see Doc Fallon, and we don't get any repeats with Raph. Though that last one's a pretty tall order...

[Jephael]

I really loved Splinter's lesson about making amends before it's too late. I wish more people would take that message to heart, not just here on the internet but in real life as well. Somebody mentioned earlier that he was a little too harsh with Donatello for picking a fight with Raphael in the beginning of the episode, but Splinter made a valuable point. You don't stoke the fire with gasoline.

[TMNTInsighter]

I'm giving this episode a C (3 out of 5 stars) and it actually kind of pains me to do that b/c the Mutanimals are always a welcome sight. After all, if the turtles are Splinter's legacy, then the Mutanimals are theirs. They also have interesting backstories, work pretty well as their own team, and are good counterparts of the turtles themselves. Todd Casey has also been one of this series' best writers along with Sebastian Montes being the director of many of my favorite episodes. But in this episode they just couldn't figure out where they wanted to go. While the "Insecta Trifecta" also got a C, it did so because it was a non serious episode that didn't need to do much to overcome its shortcomings. This one was supposed to be a serious episode and it didn't do enough to overcome its own shortcomings and that's always the bigger disappointment:

"Bad poets borrow. Good poets steal." It's an old quote by poet and author TS Elliott which is perhaps the most relevant quote in these days of unoriginality in the entertainment world. What he basically meant was that what a bad artist is unable to disguise as belonging to somebody else, a good artist makes his own. One look at Raph's conflict with his family and we know they're borrowing from episodes such as "Turtle Temper" and (more relevantly) "TGTB&CJ", and "Slash and Destroy." There's also a nice little throwback to SRMF5 that drove the episode "Mutagen Man Unleashed" which, with regards to the title character, was also revisited when the loss of one Mutanimal was shrewdly noted by Michelangelo and dismissed shockingly by the leader of the team itself. Along with the outrageous shtick the Vizioso gang provides later, this has all the markings of another episode that shouldn't be taken seriously until they throw in the half-baked attempt at a story regarding discrimination.
Now, let's just pretend for a moment that "Casey Jones vs. the Underworld", which was a beautiful marriage of the realistic and the fantastical mind you, didn't happen, and thus the Vizioso gang willingly let in and put up (somewhat) well with a batch of worse mutants than our group of protagonists. Even then, this story of discrimination doesn't go very far; and in this author's honest opinion is both a good and bad thing.
Now maybe it's just me, but I don't think discrimination makes for very satisfying entertainment. It is an important subject in our world, the motivations however aren't well understood, and the politics surrounding it have become increasingly murky to navigate (especially these days when the claim can be made in just about any situation). And perhaps I should have been born in the Jim Crow days to understand it, but the motives usually displayed (whether by fictional or nonfictional entertainment) are wan and as stupidly unilluminating as Cobra Commander's lust for world domination. Even worse, something so serious as this becomes cheap when treated melodramatically, whether by the political pundits on MSNBC or the more tiresome stories in the X-Men franchise. Nor can I feel, that this is the type of issue that can successfully be explored and resolved in the pat and stiff way that the action genre requires. Shredder's occasional contention and rocky relationship with his mutant henchmen is at least colored by his undisguised egomania which can give that relationship a compelling luster if explored enough. But Vizioso's mob just comes off as an out of left field group of cardboard haters which subtract from the credibility of their characters and their cause in this episode. Neither is the Don himself a very interesting adversary, somewhere in between the competently handled Kingpin and leaning more towards the unlikeable likes of The Blob and Batman TAS Boss Biggis.
Stories like that were never part of the problem in the early days for the Ninja Turtles, largely because they followed the Stewart-Fonda Solution: just don't talk about it. The stories in either the comics or the television series' knew what they had and knew they didn't need much to make them click. Good characterizations wrapped around a genuinely emotional (and sometimes inventive/creative) story was all they needed and they didn't get bogged down in social or political commentary (again check the X-Men). That's why the Ninja Turtles have been able to stand on their own feet for all these years, even if they are often overshadowed by the excellent marketing of Marvel's and DC's own creations.
In the end, this was a middle some episode that couldn't figure out the tone it wanted to establish nor how far it wanted to push the story it wanted to tell. There are some moments of indecision, even peril, but those are nullified by both the over-the-top schtick (the "No Mutants Allowed" sign, anti-mutant weapons, the Don's outrageous flying chair, and a reference to the cargo loader in "Aliens" for example) and the fact that no one is forced to make any hard decisions with regards to this apparent anti-mutant plot they're trapped in. With all these things offsetting each other, is it no surprise that this half-baked episode deserves anything more than a half rating?

[snake]

Great episode. I'm shocked at how violent this one was. Loved it though

Was Dr. Feral a reference to something?

[drgon78]

Good episode, not great, though Raph being a drama queen again is getting old.

[ToTheNines]

Originally Posted by snake

Great episode. I'm shocked at how violent this one was. Loved it though

Was Dr. Feral a reference to something?

Yeah, from the old Palladium RP books.

[Autbot_Benz]

The Gangster that sounds like Sylvester Stallone is awesome. I also loved Rockwell saying Great Scott like doc brown.

[CyberCubed]

This was a great episode, and its why I always love gangster stories in TMNT. Having them hunt mutants was also a great idea since Bishop is an Utrom in this version. The gangster designs and parodies were also quite fun.

Also anyone notice the fight scenes in this episode in particular were really well choreographed? It wasn't just generic kicking and throwing, there were actually some really good scenes in this episode, reminded me of the fight scenes from the better episodes of the 2k3 series. I also loved Don Visioso's flying chair.

Mondo Gecko was great to have back too, although I do wish he could fight properly. All in all a well done action episode, we definitely need more gangsters in TMNT.

[NinjaMan]

[matteso586]

1) My theory: Pigeon Pete migrated south.

2) Does anyone think that Vizioso has a point during his conversation with Leo, Mikey, Leatherhead, Slash, and Rockwell?

3) Who is this Doc Feral?

[The Happy One]

Originally Posted by Bitsy83

Man, Donnie has just NOT been doing well this season, has he? Are they trying to do issue #44 very vaguely or what? And having him shiver like that in the hotel just seemed....a BIT OOC. I mean, I know Donnie's not the strongest dude on the team, but I'd like to think he'd stare death in the face a little bit more than that. Unless that was Mondo shaking them both.

And Raph getting mad.

And quitting.

And blaming Leo for being too soft.

Again.

I totally agree with you on Don.

I don't know if they're planning on doing something drastic with him or if it's just a continuous tactic they like to use to write him out or...??? But while I did enjoy this episode very much I did pick that up.

Donnie should be able to hold his own in battle. And while they did use tranqs I feel like the writers collectively have this idea that Don is sort of invalid- and only fights as good as his brothers when it counts. I may just be talking nonsense here but, gosh, even with Raph?

Like it fit this episode. His anger. It fits because he's seeing the danger (esp. after reading Tmnt Universe I see Raph in even a better light) and he wants to end it while they can. Train harder. Fight better. Protect. It's in his nature and they played on it well.

But...they didn't have to include the whole 'Leo being soft' trope. That's just repetition.

But for this episode I saw no huge problem with it, since they didn't rely too heavily on his beef with Leo as leader aa much as it did on his burning desire to be better, stronger and faster in the fight. .

I just hope they fix this with Donatello tho...he's got a lot of potential, plot wise. His characterization is pretty good...but there's still something off about it.