TMNT and martial arts - Page 2

Azraelito · 10-10-2002, 02:14 PM

ahahaha ups haha is like i have lag with my posts yes lag like in games kakakakak.
well thx for the info.
i dont know what dan is he?

*heretic888* · 10-10-2002, 02:29 PM

in case you're wondering.... the ninja method of unarmed combat is traditionally called ninpo taijutsu. or just taijutsu for short. ninjutsu refers to the ENTIRE collection of martial arts the ninja studies. taijutsu is the most impotant of these.

**Karpo_007** · 10-10-2002, 03:00 PM

Well Ninjas were assasins in ancient japan.... So why is ninjitsu unviolent?

**Machias Banshee** · 10-10-2002, 04:55 PM

Jeez, whacky thread guys

I've been in Karate for about a year now, and am at about blue belt level. I got an awesome sensei...she's one of the judges for the US Olympic Jujitsu team, has credentials about a mile long, and is an excellent teacher.

I'd wanted to get into Martial arts even before i had heard of the Turtles, cuz my Dad and Brothers were taking it too...(whacky coincidence huh?

) I was about 4 when they were in that. They've been out for a while, but now my entering has gotten them is hopefully gonna persuade them to get back into it...

Hey, Kameko, i can give you a link to my Sensei's Sensei's Dojo, and you can learn some of the words and such... I've been getting into the Japanese language too since last year. I never really got to get too deep into my interests at home, thanks to my annoying brothers, but here at college, I can finally do what i'm intrested in...

~~Reznorite420~~ · 10-10-2002, 05:46 PM

I was in Karate for about 3 years, but it had nothing to do with TMNT. It all to do with my little anger problems and depression back in 4th grade. But I'll say this much; it definitely made me a more peaceful person!

speedracer · 10-10-2002, 06:50 PM

Ninjutsu is literally the art of invisibility.

So, strictly speaking, ninjutsu need not involve any martial arts at all.

However, ninjutsu is naturally used as basic training for some folks who like to engage in illegal activities. So some martial arts training is usually incorporated into a ninja's training, the goal being to learn how to defeat or eliminate enemies as cleanly as possible.

And yes, the Mirage Turtles did a little better job of practicing ninjutsu than the cartoon Turtles, but not much.

**Kali** · 10-10-2002, 08:13 PM

*ahem* While I've never had any formal training, I'm studying the art of ninjutsu. I tend to focus more on the mental and philosophical than the physical martial arts aspects.

**Machias Banshee** · 10-10-2002, 08:38 PM

I'd love to get into the mental aspects, but i just dont know who to go to...

**Kali** · 10-11-2002, 07:47 AM

*smirk* Pick up a book. I've got Masaaki Hatsumi's Ninjutsu History and Tradition (which is has good info but it's not much of a learning guide) and have read several of Stephen Hayes' books.

*heretic888* · 10-12-2002, 12:16 PM

here we go, one by one:

"Well Ninjas were assasins in ancient japan.... So why is ninjitsu unviolent?"
-----------
now THAT is a HUGE misconception proliferated by shallow hollywood treatmeant of the subject. the primary goal of the ninja families in ancient Japan was endurance and perseverance in both the physical and psychological sense. sometimes, 'black ops' were required to ensure the safety of one's family (this was a period of almost uninterrupted civil warfare). but, ninja were not primarily assassins or killers. Few martial arts emphasize non-violence as much as ninpo (that is why there is so much of an emphasis on escape and 'invisibility'). Ninja studied their art for self-protection and self-development, just like today.
----------------------------------------------------------

"Ninjutsu is literally the art of invisibility.

So, strictly speaking, ninjutsu need not involve any martial arts at all.

However, ninjutsu is naturally used as basic training for some folks who like to engage in illegal activities. So some martial arts training is usually incorporated into a ninja's training, the goal being to learn how to defeat or eliminate enemies as cleanly as possible.

And yes, the Mirage Turtles did a little better job of practicing ninjutsu than the cartoon Turtles, but not much."
-----------
No, ninjutsu is not just 'the art of invisibility'. Ninjutsu (or ninpo as it is known in its higher order) is the art of persevering and enduring both phsyically and psychologically no matter the odds. It was developed by a specific culture in ancient Japan, with a specific approach to life. This involves methods of self-protection and methods of spiritual development. According to Dr. Hatsumi, the world's only ninjutsu grandmaster still living, the primary responsibility of the ninja was spiritual refinement and development by whatever means. The seconday responsibility was the empty-handed training of taijutsu. The use of weapons and 'invisibility' is way on down the list, but it is not 'essential' by any standard.

So, yes, 'strictly speaking' ninjutsu has ALWAYS involved the perfection of taijutsu body dynamics as the core of the art.

For your information, authentic ninjutsu has not been involved in 'illegal activities' in other 300 years.

Oh, by the way, the Mirage Turtles did a MUCH better job of presenting actual ninjutsu than the other incarnations.
-----------------------------------

"While I've never had any formal training, I'm studying the art of ninjutsu. I tend to focus more on the mental and philosophical than the physical martial arts aspects.

Pick up a book. I've got Masaaki Hatsumi's Ninjutsu History and Tradition (which is has good info but it's not much of a learning guide) and have read several of Stephen Hayes' books."
------
Its good to know someone here actually knows what im talking about. I have read much from Hatsumi and Hayes, as well. I would like to talk a little more about it with you later.

**Kali** · 10-12-2002, 01:31 PM

Hollywood has done a real number on ninjas haven't they? Oh well, they're just playing on the rumors and legands that the ninjas of old circulated themselves to keep people misinformed about them. It was one of those non-confrontation tactics. If you thought a ninja could really disappear into shadows, change into animals, and use magic, would you want to fight one?

~~Reznorite420~~ · 10-12-2002, 01:37 PM

Hmmmm...I read somewhere in my old Karate book (a FAQ section) that mentioned ninjas as specially trained military spies of ancient Japan.

**Kali** · 10-12-2002, 01:47 PM

Yes, ninja had several purposes over the years. They did once work as the government's private army of sorts. But now a days they don't deal with that sort of stuff.

speedracer · 10-12-2002, 02:03 PM

Well, no ninja master am I, but...

Who is this Dr. Hatsumi? Why is he the exclusive authority on ninjutsu?

I freely admit that much (all?) of what I know about ninjutsu was gleaned from Dungeons and Dragons. Of course they could be wrong, but anyone who has ever taken more than a passing interest in D&D knows that the D&D writers do a *lot* of research into their subjects.

**Nturtle** · 10-12-2002, 06:45 PM

I have a bit of martial arts experience, nothing formal though I am also very good at stupid matrix poses but thats about it

*heretic888* · 10-15-2002, 10:08 AM

"Hollywood has done a real number on ninjas haven't they? Oh well, they're just playing on the rumors and legands that the ninjas of old circulated themselves to keep people misinformed about them. It was one of those non-confrontation tactics. If you thought a ninja could really disappear into shadows, change into animals, and use magic, would you want to fight one?"
--------
Yes, the ninja of centuries ago DID proliferate those 'myths' (although a few of them are more fact than fiction) to give them a needed psychological edge over their vastly overpowering oppressors (the samurai). But it is no longer forbidden to practice ninpo or follow the ninja's approach to spirituality. Thus, the continued proliferation of these myths is simply a result of ignorance considering there is plenty of AUTHENTIC information available in books by Masaaki Hatsumi, Stephen Hayes, Jack Hoban, Charles Daniel, and Glenn Morris (look them up if you're interested).
-------------------------------------------------------
"Hmmmm...I read somewhere in my old Karate book (a FAQ section) that mentioned ninjas as specially trained military spies of ancient Japan."
----------------
Although there is SOME truth in that statement, you should (as a general rule) discount most things that conventional, mainstream martial artists say about ninja and ninjutsu. Many see ninpo as a threat to their 'traditional' styles.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Yes, ninja had several purposes over the years. They did once work as the government's private army of sorts. But now a days they don't deal with that sort of stuff."
----------------
I think I should point out that the ninja's only real 'purpose' in ancient Japan was to ensure peaceful order and harmony (not only for their families but for the entire nation as a whole) by the most effective means possible. This is not political order, but rather what might be called 'spiritual' order.

The ninja would do whatever was necessary to secure the peace and freedom of the nation, and this did occasionally include 'secret police' work. But, do not mistake the ninja for the KGB or anything like that. The ninja families (on the whole) had no desire for power or conquest, and were motivated primarily out of compassion (resulting from deep practices of mysticism) for the suffering of others.

However, I must reiterate that the ninja's primary role was a gatherer of intelligence and advisor to the political powers in ancient Japan. They would ONLY in completely desperate times actually involve themselves in direct physical violence. The ninja sought to secure the people's freedom and security through covertly supporting a relatively just and benevolent daimyo (regional lord) through their espionage and reconaissance skills. Their combat system was designed as a means of defense in case an undercover agent was ever discovered in order to escape..... not as a means of winning wars. Assassination was only used in complete and utter desperation as a last resort. The ninja would seek to 'dissuade' hostile forces through indirect means first.
------------------------------------------------------
"Well, no ninja master am I, but...

Who is this Dr. Hatsumi? Why is he the exclusive authority on ninjutsu?

I freely admit that much (all?) of what I know about ninjutsu was gleaned from Dungeons and Dragons. Of course they could be wrong, but anyone who has ever taken more than a passing interest in D&D knows that the D&D writers do a *lot* of research into their subjects."
-----------------
Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi is the ONLY living grandmaster of ninjutsu. That is, he is the ONLY headmaster of authentic ninjutsu traditions that is still alive. His authority on the subject is indisputable. He is really the only scholar with an 'insider's' view about the ninja. Most conventinal accounts of ninpo are seen from the samurai's point of view.

As for Dungeons and Dragons, I have looked over what is said about ninja in Oriental Adventures, Rokugan, and The Way of Ninja. I can assure you that D&D is one of the most INACCURATE accounts of ninja and ninjutsu ever done by an rpg system. The REAL ninja have far more in common with the Monk class in D&D than they ever would with the Ninja class. If you want an accurate rpg account of ninpo, i would suggest Sengoku and its supplement Shinobi: Shadows of Nihon.
---------------------------------------
laterz.

**HorseTechie** · 10-15-2002, 12:23 PM

Damn.. I'm learning all kinds of things today. About what was fact or fiction with the Renaisance painters... where 'cowabunga' came from, and what ninjustu really is.

I will admit most of my martial arts affiliations came from the TMNT. But I think the overall interest in things Asian started after seeing the Karate Kid series. Yeah.. sad but true... Mr. Miyagi affected me that much!

I started out taking Tae Kwon Do... and frankly, I decided that school I went to was the best. I practiced at a couple of smaller Japaense karate schools in college, but it didn't teach me as much as the Tae Kwon Do did. But alas, I ran out of time and money to commit to that after. I'm content just studying the asian culture, language, and history now. My Korean husband has helped in clearing up many of my other American misconceptions too.

*heretic888* · 10-15-2002, 12:28 PM

yah learn somethin new everyday.

*Kameko* · 10-15-2002, 12:30 PM

Eesh, this thread is giving me a headache...

*heretic888* · 10-15-2002, 12:33 PM

yup.

10-10-2002, 02:14 PM	#21
Azraelito Stone Warrior Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Bs.As,Argentina Posts: 516	ahahaha ups haha is like i have lag with my posts yes lag like in games kakakakak. well thx for the info. i dont know what dan is he? __________________ -hardest lesson to learn,sometimes bad guys win.

10-10-2002, 02:29 PM	#22
heretic888 Foot Elite Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 3,344	ahem in case you're wondering.... the ninja method of unarmed combat is traditionally called ninpo taijutsu. or just taijutsu for short. ninjutsu refers to the ENTIRE collection of martial arts the ninja studies. taijutsu is the most impotant of these. __________________ "Ninpo began as training to become a moral people and to learn to endure in whatever social condition one is in; to know and accept one's fate, and to live for human beings and all other creatures. The person who masters all of these is a Ninja." (Masaaki Hatsumi)

10-12-2002, 12:16 PM	#30
heretic888 Foot Elite Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 3,344	some misconceptions here we go, one by one: "Well Ninjas were assasins in ancient japan.... So why is ninjitsu unviolent?" ----------- now THAT is a HUGE misconception proliferated by shallow hollywood treatmeant of the subject. the primary goal of the ninja families in ancient Japan was endurance and perseverance in both the physical and psychological sense. sometimes, 'black ops' were required to ensure the safety of one's family (this was a period of almost uninterrupted civil warfare). but, ninja were not primarily assassins or killers. Few martial arts emphasize non-violence as much as ninpo (that is why there is so much of an emphasis on escape and 'invisibility'). Ninja studied their art for self-protection and self-development, just like today. ---------------------------------------------------------- "Ninjutsu is literally the art of invisibility. So, strictly speaking, ninjutsu need not involve any martial arts at all. However, ninjutsu is naturally used as basic training for some folks who like to engage in illegal activities. So some martial arts training is usually incorporated into a ninja's training, the goal being to learn how to defeat or eliminate enemies as cleanly as possible. And yes, the Mirage Turtles did a little better job of practicing ninjutsu than the cartoon Turtles, but not much." ----------- No, ninjutsu is not just 'the art of invisibility'. Ninjutsu (or ninpo as it is known in its higher order) is the art of persevering and enduring both phsyically and psychologically no matter the odds. It was developed by a specific culture in ancient Japan, with a specific approach to life. This involves methods of self-protection and methods of spiritual development. According to Dr. Hatsumi, the world's only ninjutsu grandmaster still living, the primary responsibility of the ninja was spiritual refinement and development by whatever means. The seconday responsibility was the empty-handed training of taijutsu. The use of weapons and 'invisibility' is way on down the list, but it is not 'essential' by any standard. So, yes, 'strictly speaking' ninjutsu has ALWAYS involved the perfection of taijutsu body dynamics as the core of the art. For your information, authentic ninjutsu has not been involved in 'illegal activities' in other 300 years. Oh, by the way, the Mirage Turtles did a MUCH better job of presenting actual ninjutsu than the other incarnations. ----------------------------------- "While I've never had any formal training, I'm studying the art of ninjutsu. I tend to focus more on the mental and philosophical than the physical martial arts aspects. Pick up a book. I've got Masaaki Hatsumi's Ninjutsu History and Tradition (which is has good info but it's not much of a learning guide) and have read several of Stephen Hayes' books." ------ Its good to know someone here actually knows what im talking about. I have read much from Hatsumi and Hayes, as well. I would like to talk a little more about it with you later. __________________ "Ninpo began as training to become a moral people and to learn to endure in whatever social condition one is in; to know and accept one's fate, and to live for human beings and all other creatures. The person who masters all of these is a Ninja." (Masaaki Hatsumi)

10-12-2002, 06:45 PM	#35
Nturtle Ninja Master Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Technodrome Airducts Posts: 5,215	I have a bit of martial arts experience, nothing formal though I am also very good at stupid matrix poses but thats about it __________________ Fil rules. If Fil takes your 5 bucks then you should be eternally grateful that Fil would even borrow your money. Fil.

10-15-2002, 10:08 AM	#36
heretic888 Foot Elite Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 3,344	more responses (this is very long, sorry) "Hollywood has done a real number on ninjas haven't they? Oh well, they're just playing on the rumors and legands that the ninjas of old circulated themselves to keep people misinformed about them. It was one of those non-confrontation tactics. If you thought a ninja could really disappear into shadows, change into animals, and use magic, would you want to fight one?" -------- Yes, the ninja of centuries ago DID proliferate those 'myths' (although a few of them are more fact than fiction) to give them a needed psychological edge over their vastly overpowering oppressors (the samurai). But it is no longer forbidden to practice ninpo or follow the ninja's approach to spirituality. Thus, the continued proliferation of these myths is simply a result of ignorance considering there is plenty of AUTHENTIC information available in books by Masaaki Hatsumi, Stephen Hayes, Jack Hoban, Charles Daniel, and Glenn Morris (look them up if you're interested). ------------------------------------------------------- "Hmmmm...I read somewhere in my old Karate book (a FAQ section) that mentioned ninjas as specially trained military spies of ancient Japan." ---------------- Although there is SOME truth in that statement, you should (as a general rule) discount most things that conventional, mainstream martial artists say about ninja and ninjutsu. Many see ninpo as a threat to their 'traditional' styles. ----------------------------------------------------------- "Yes, ninja had several purposes over the years. They did once work as the government's private army of sorts. But now a days they don't deal with that sort of stuff." ---------------- I think I should point out that the ninja's only real 'purpose' in ancient Japan was to ensure peaceful order and harmony (not only for their families but for the entire nation as a whole) by the most effective means possible. This is not political order, but rather what might be called 'spiritual' order. The ninja would do whatever was necessary to secure the peace and freedom of the nation, and this did occasionally include 'secret police' work. But, do not mistake the ninja for the KGB or anything like that. The ninja families (on the whole) had no desire for power or conquest, and were motivated primarily out of compassion (resulting from deep practices of mysticism) for the suffering of others. However, I must reiterate that the ninja's primary role was a gatherer of intelligence and advisor to the political powers in ancient Japan. They would ONLY in completely desperate times actually involve themselves in direct physical violence. The ninja sought to secure the people's freedom and security through covertly supporting a relatively just and benevolent daimyo (regional lord) through their espionage and reconaissance skills. Their combat system was designed as a means of defense in case an undercover agent was ever discovered in order to escape..... not as a means of winning wars. Assassination was only used in complete and utter desperation as a last resort. The ninja would seek to 'dissuade' hostile forces through indirect means first. ------------------------------------------------------ "Well, no ninja master am I, but... Who is this Dr. Hatsumi? Why is he the exclusive authority on ninjutsu? I freely admit that much (all?) of what I know about ninjutsu was gleaned from Dungeons and Dragons. Of course they could be wrong, but anyone who has ever taken more than a passing interest in D&D knows that the D&D writers do a lot of research into their subjects." ----------------- Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi is the ONLY living grandmaster of ninjutsu. That is, he is the ONLY headmaster of authentic ninjutsu traditions that is still alive. His authority on the subject is indisputable. He is really the only scholar with an 'insider's' view about the ninja. Most conventinal accounts of ninpo are seen from the samurai's point of view. As for Dungeons and Dragons, I have looked over what is said about ninja in Oriental Adventures, Rokugan, and The Way of Ninja. I can assure you that D&D is one of the most INACCURATE accounts of ninja and ninjutsu ever done by an rpg system. The REAL ninja have far more in common with the Monk class in D&D than they ever would with the Ninja class. If you want an accurate rpg account of ninpo, i would suggest Sengoku and its supplement Shinobi: Shadows of Nihon. --------------------------------------- laterz. __________________ "Ninpo began as training to become a moral people and to learn to endure in whatever social condition one is in; to know and accept one's fate, and to live for human beings and all other creatures. The person who masters all of these is a Ninja." (Masaaki Hatsumi)

10-10-2002, 03:00 PM	#23
Karpo_007 Inactive Moderator Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Finland Posts: 8,798	Well Ninjas were assasins in ancient japan.... So why is ninjitsu unviolent?

10-10-2002, 04:55 PM	#24
Machias Banshee Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 17,163	Jeez, whacky thread guys I've been in Karate for about a year now, and am at about blue belt level. I got an awesome sensei...she's one of the judges for the US Olympic Jujitsu team, has credentials about a mile long, and is an excellent teacher. I'd wanted to get into Martial arts even before i had heard of the Turtles, cuz my Dad and Brothers were taking it too...(whacky coincidence huh? ) I was about 4 when they were in that. They've been out for a while, but now my entering has gotten them is hopefully gonna persuade them to get back into it... Hey, Kameko, i can give you a link to my Sensei's Sensei's Dojo, and you can learn some of the words and such... I've been getting into the Japanese language too since last year. I never really got to get too deep into my interests at home, thanks to my annoying brothers, but here at college, I can finally do what i'm intrested in...

10-10-2002, 05:46 PM	#25
~~Reznorite420~~ Banned Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 3,851	I was in Karate for about 3 years, but it had nothing to do with TMNT. It all to do with my little anger problems and depression back in 4th grade. But I'll say this much; it definitely made me a more peaceful person!

10-10-2002, 06:50 PM	#26
speedracer Foot Soldier Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 117	Ninjutsu is literally the art of invisibility. So, strictly speaking, ninjutsu need not involve any martial arts at all. However, ninjutsu is naturally used as basic training for some folks who like to engage in illegal activities. So some martial arts training is usually incorporated into a ninja's training, the goal being to learn how to defeat or eliminate enemies as cleanly as possible. And yes, the Mirage Turtles did a little better job of practicing ninjutsu than the cartoon Turtles, but not much.

10-10-2002, 08:13 PM	#27
Kali Inactive Moderator Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: California! Posts: 11,101	ahem While I've never had any formal training, I'm studying the art of ninjutsu. I tend to focus more on the mental and philosophical than the physical martial arts aspects.

10-10-2002, 08:38 PM	#28
Machias Banshee Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 17,163	I'd love to get into the mental aspects, but i just dont know who to go to...

10-11-2002, 07:47 AM	#29
Kali Inactive Moderator Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: California! Posts: 11,101	smirk Pick up a book. I've got Masaaki Hatsumi's Ninjutsu History and Tradition (which is has good info but it's not much of a learning guide) and have read several of Stephen Hayes' books.

10-12-2002, 01:31 PM	#31
Kali Inactive Moderator Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: California! Posts: 11,101	Hollywood has done a real number on ninjas haven't they? Oh well, they're just playing on the rumors and legands that the ninjas of old circulated themselves to keep people misinformed about them. It was one of those non-confrontation tactics. If you thought a ninja could really disappear into shadows, change into animals, and use magic, would you want to fight one?

10-12-2002, 01:37 PM	#32
~~Reznorite420~~ Banned Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 3,851	Hmmmm...I read somewhere in my old Karate book (a FAQ section) that mentioned ninjas as specially trained military spies of ancient Japan.

10-12-2002, 01:47 PM	#33
Kali Inactive Moderator Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: California! Posts: 11,101	Yes, ninja had several purposes over the years. They did once work as the government's private army of sorts. But now a days they don't deal with that sort of stuff.

10-12-2002, 02:03 PM	#34
speedracer Foot Soldier Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 117	Well, no ninja master am I, but... Who is this Dr. Hatsumi? Why is he the exclusive authority on ninjutsu? I freely admit that much (all?) of what I know about ninjutsu was gleaned from Dungeons and Dragons. Of course they could be wrong, but anyone who has ever taken more than a passing interest in D&D knows that the D&D writers do a lot of research into their subjects.

10-15-2002, 12:23 PM	#37
HorseTechie Inactive Moderator Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Midwest Posts: 5,677	Damn.. I'm learning all kinds of things today. About what was fact or fiction with the Renaisance painters... where 'cowabunga' came from, and what ninjustu really is. I will admit most of my martial arts affiliations came from the TMNT. But I think the overall interest in things Asian started after seeing the Karate Kid series. Yeah.. sad but true... Mr. Miyagi affected me that much! I started out taking Tae Kwon Do... and frankly, I decided that school I went to was the best. I practiced at a couple of smaller Japaense karate schools in college, but it didn't teach me as much as the Tae Kwon Do did. But alas, I ran out of time and money to commit to that after. I'm content just studying the asian culture, language, and history now. My Korean husband has helped in clearing up many of my other American misconceptions too.

10-15-2002, 12:28 PM	#38
heretic888 Foot Elite Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 3,344	heh yah learn somethin new everyday. __________________ "Ninpo began as training to become a moral people and to learn to endure in whatever social condition one is in; to know and accept one's fate, and to live for human beings and all other creatures. The person who masters all of these is a Ninja." (Masaaki Hatsumi)

10-15-2002, 12:30 PM	#39
Kameko Sister to the TMNT Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Los Angeles, California, USA Posts: 2,756	Eesh, this thread is giving me a headache...

10-15-2002, 12:33 PM	#40
heretic888 Foot Elite Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 3,344	:) yup. __________________ "Ninpo began as training to become a moral people and to learn to endure in whatever social condition one is in; to know and accept one's fate, and to live for human beings and all other creatures. The person who masters all of these is a Ninja." (Masaaki Hatsumi)