Leonardo?

[heretic888]

even if they did declare who was the best fighter etc... that would limit the action, story and everything else

no, it would force the writers to be more realistic and true to the characters. it would greatly IMPROVE the story!

I would never consider Mikey the best fighter out of all 4 tmnt. Michelangelo is always getting captured and beaten by the simplest of enemies... Splinter even says in Snakes Alive! that Leonardo was the most gifted.

First off, thats the cartoon and that is not what we are talking about. They are all bad fighters in the cartoon, no one really being better than another. Secondly Mike is 'always getting captured and beaten' in fanfictions not any mirage stories (raph gets beat up on much more occassions due to his lack of foresight). The only reason that Mike is not considered the 'best fighter' out of the four is because he (and Don) are the only ones that arent concerned with walking around and showing everyone else how tough they are and what a great ninja student they are. In ninjutsu, we Mike's attitude humility. It is the attititude any ninja should have.

Well, define "best fighter". Is it the most skilled? The most talented? One who puts in the most effort? The one who wins the most battles? The one who avoids them all together? What? And in which universe: cartoon, Mirage, movie, Image?

Everything considered, the turtles are a team, and a family, and thus, do their best when working together.

Well, personally i am talking about the Mirage universe (specifically the stories written by Eastman and/or Laird). The 'best fighter' is the one that can deliver the most appropriate damage to one's enemies will avoiding their attempts to damage him/her. Among the tmnt, that's mike due to his agility and creativity.

Leo was is and always will be the best of the turtles.

I guess it depends on what you consider to be 'best'.

If any of you learn anything from this thread, it's that Leo is better than Mike.

Uninformed opinions hardly constitute objective reality, even when dealing with fictitious characters. Like I said, everyone thinks Leo and/or Raph are the best fighter because of their macho, pushy, egocentered attitudes. Mike doesnt go around trying to make everyone think he's a great ninja because he knows it himself.

Remember how horribly pissed off Raph got that Mike beat him with almost no effort??? And what was it Mike said to him at the end?? Oh yeah: "Pride goeth before a fall, buddy". That sums things up very well.

[Karpo_007]

Exatly how much of mirage have you read? I havent read any fan fics to date. They have Never said , that one turtle is better than another. But in mirage, mike is the one who gets injured the most. Just read issue 4. Who's the one who gets most seriously injured? What about issue 6 in the batle with Tricerantons?

And the rpg book. The time of publishing has got nothing to do with the fact that only artwork came from mirage. They probably read it, but they didnt affect the content in any way.

You should have some real info before making arguments like that. Easpecially the fanfic part.As i said i havent read any. Only the comic has the official info and nothing says that One Turtle is any better than others.
And the fact that mike is the most njured one is just a notice, im not saying that he cant fight good against enemies. They all get hurt sometimes, but there are no fas that you can present that clearly shows what you are saying is true. Those are your opinions. But dont present them as facts.

[Karpo_007]

One other thing. You really seem to know about Ninja philosphy, probably more than the creators at the time, ant thats why you really cant mix it with the TMNT. And your post about why they train, again no real facts, pretty much fanfiction.

[Sparvid]

Originally Posted by Karpo_007

What about issue 6 in the batle with Tricerantons?

My favorite fight scene...

[heretic888]

so.... i guess its just one of those wacky 'coincidences' that the heavily Mirage-influenced palladium rpg profile description of Mike's physical prowess "just happened' to be almost identical to the heavily laird-involved description in the animated series??? rightt......

so what are you saying? that wujcick and siembieda just chose this **** at random?? that, "ah **** it, lets make raph the physically strongest but third in line in skill and agility and lets make mike the second strongest but first in line on agility???"

oh, and mike gets hurt most often, huh?

Who got his ass handed to him by the Shredder and the Foot in the leonardo special? Who got whupped up again by Karai and her foot? Who got messed up seriously by the Foot TWICE in the return to new york? Who got knocked off a frickin building in a battle with the robot baxter stockman and subsequently captured by the government??? Who got his leg broken in a fight with the shredder elite??

but what you fail to understand is that these storyarchs are all at the whim of the writer. NONE of this affects who is the most agile or skilled fighter. Mike gets captured in so and so story because that is the storyarch Peter chose, it has nothing to do with his character! It is all random. I mean frikkin Skippy the Sixth Turtle could be the best fighter, but Laird might want him to get captured or beat up a lot because that is his decision as writer.

And AS A MARTIAL ARTIST, and AS A NINJUTSU STUDENT, i can tell you that mike's overall personality and attitude toward training is MUCH MORE likely to produce a high level of skill in ninpo than the other three.

Besides... I dont ever remember Raph or Leo beating Mike in a sparring match. In fact, even in the non-Eastman or Laird Mirage comics Mike is often described as 'the best there is' (Juliet's Revenge when he fights Bruce Lee) and as having 'the quickest reflexes and movements' (first part of the River trilogy).

In ever 'mirage oriented' medium comparing the four, Mike is ALWAYS listed as having the greatest physical prowess and dexterity.

[Karpo_007]

Well you fail to understand that i dont really care. They work as a team perioid. They all get injured sometimes. Still it is pointless to argue with this. Every one of them has their strong and week ponts. Only together they are perfect. If you choose to disagree with this, do so by all means.

Arguing is pointless, neither one us has the facts, just our own opinnions. Still ít was nice to argue with you

[heretic888]

Exatly how much of mirage have you read? I havent read any fan fics to date. They have Never said , that one turtle is better than another.

Unlike you, I have read EVERY issue of the Mirage books, including Volume 2. And there HAVE been contests between the turtles. Mike beat Raph in sparring twice. Raph beat Leo in a fight, but then later on Leo effortlessly beat Raph in sparring every time (right before City at War). Leo also beat the Shredder Elite when Raph could not (then again, Leo suprised them and Raph did not). Don and Raph have both beat Casey Jones in fights.

I might also add that when they spent a period of precisly two years at the farmhouse, Mike was the ONLY one that spent his time training. Raph was skulking, Don was tinkering, and Leo was off hunting deer.

The time of publishing has got nothing to do with the fact that only artwork came from mirage. They probably read it, but they didnt affect the content in any way.

Oh, and you know this HOW? How the hell do you know that the turtles' profiles werent written by Eastman and Laird themselves???

One other thing. You really seem to know about Ninja philosphy, probably more than the creators at the time, ant thats why you really cant mix it with the TMNT. And your post about why they train, again no real facts, pretty much fanfiction.

I know about ninja philosophy AND traning. And because the tmnt train in ninjutsu, i most certainly CAN mix it in. I post about why they train based on their personality traits and attitude toward the training. In addition to studying martial arts, i also study psychology. Leo trains because of 'duty' in that he is the sociocentric. Raph trains because he enjoys violence, he is the egocentric. Mike trains because he actually enjoys the experience for itself, he is postconventional worldcentric.

Things dont have to be flat out screamed in black and white for an insightful person to discover them, you know.

[heretic888]

They work as a team perioid. They all get injured sometimes. Still it is pointless to argue with this. Every one of them has their strong and week ponts. Only together they are perfect. If you choose to disagree with this, do so by all means.

I never said otherwise. Mike most certainly lacks skills and traits that the others possess, but we WERE talking about which of them has the greatest level of physical skill and ability. There is no doubt that Mike has the most highly refined taijutsu of the four. This is due to his natural ability, love of training and experience, and creativity and intuition.

Raph, for example, is more of a demolitions expert and survival expert.

Leo is greater at strategems and organization.

Don has a skill of many forms of technologies and knows about surveillance.

Mike, in addition to his physical prowess, has great espionage and stealth-oriented skills.

This was all amply described in the rpg, you should really look it up.

[Karpo_007]

Your replying my post a little late.... Maybe you shuold read them before you reply... And maybe i cant prove that they didnt participate in the contet of rpg book, but you cant prove that they did.

Before you can prove that, the rpg isnt considered official info. It will take time untill i have read them all(im reading few per week) But i dont believe it is so clear taht Mike is the best fighter of them...But before i have read them i cant really say for sure, but i seriously doubt it. You seem obsessed on this matter.

And you can mix they philsophy all you want, It still just your theory, not a fact. Fact is, they all are good fighters, In some fight some do better than others. My poin is that you cant really single anyone out. Even if mike did win on some sparing sessions, it doesnt mean he's any better than others against real enemies.

[PWDESAI]

so who gives a crap if he's the most agile, it's how you use the skill that makes you good no? well then since mike is really really not a skilled fighter, that would make him the worst no? well then there you go....
END OF DISCUSSION! THEY WORK AS A TEAM IT'S BEEN STATED IN NUMEROUS CARTOON EPISODES!!!!!

[Karpo_007]

hmmm, this has nothing to do with cartoon...

[heretic888]

we must work with what information we have. and with the information we have concerning the 'mirage-based' mediums (rpg, new cartoon) Mike is described as the most agile/dexterous. he also beat raph a couple of times in sparring. that is all the information we have (especially since Mike is usually given a background character status along with Don in the comics).

so who gives a crap if he's the most agile, it's how you use the skill that makes you good no? well then since mike is really really not a skilled fighter, that would make him the worst no? well then there you go....

i dont know if i should correct your poor understanding of english or your complete ignorance regarding personal combat. and since when was Michelangelo not a skilled fighter? If i recall correctly, he easily defeated two foot ninja at once in issue 4 and then effortlessly beat a third that snuck up behind him.

[Kameko]

Good Lawd, you take this WAY too seriously, dude...

[Karpo_007]

In issue 4 he got seroius wounf in his hand and other turtles had to fight for him. And the new cartoon is mirage based but not other way around. It differs. Yeah again training i know how mike beat raphael but still, acording to comics, he has always done better against enemies than mike. I dont know does that make him better figter or not, it dosent matter.

Every one of them has uniques style of fighting, some do better in sparring, some against real opponents, still if one says that one of the turtles is better at fighting than others, it's just his opinnion and theory.

[PWDESAI]

man u just don't get the point do you... So what he beat up 2 ninja wow! omigod like they are that hard to beat up... In numerous issues mike gets the crap beaten out of him. I remember and archie issue, ok archie is stupid but anyways, he was kidnapped and the other turtles had to rescue him. That's how awesome he really is. What's michaelangelo good for?
Edit
PS ending sentances with no rocks, no?

[GreenWillow]

~Hmm...well regardless of all this Objective Empirical Data and Factual Accounts.... I love Leonardo.
Just cuz he's...you know...Leonardo.

~GW...love needs no reason......

[heretic888]

i noticed you guys so accurately account when Michaleangelo was at a disadvantage but when Raphael or Leonardo (which was much more often) are at a disadvantage you are curiously silent. Even in the fight in issue 4 that you are referencing, Leonardo's head was gashed open, Donatello's staff was all but destroyed, and Raphael was knocked off a building. Oh yeah, they are SOOOO much better than Mike.....

tell me... who was it that was defeated and captured by karai and her ninja? leonardo

tell me.... who was it that was defeated by the shredder elite and had his ass saved by leonardo? raphael.

tell me... who was it that was knocked off a building in a battle with the robot baxter stockman, and subsequently captured by the DARPA? raphael.

tell me... who was it that was defeated by michelangelo TWICE in sparring? raphael.

tell me... who was it in issue 5 that was hurt by a Federatio soldier's gunshot? Raphael.

tell me... who was it in the same battle that, even though his arm was injured, he was NOT injured by any Federation soldiers? Michelangelo.

so, tell me.... what justification do you have that Mike is 'always hurt' when i can only recall it happening once... MAYBE twice... in all the storyarchs written by Eastman and Laird?? it seems that Raphael is the one always getting injured, probably due to his idiotic hot-headedness.

selective memory is not a good quality.

[Karpo_007]

In the issue 4 Leos' head wound didnt affect his fighting, unlike Michelangelo's.

No one else around here isn't so obsessed with the thing. As i said many times before, all of them got injured sometimes. But to abyoen else, it's not a big deal. No matter what I or someone else tells you, you dont seem to give up.

Poin this time: In diffrent storys diffre turtles fought better or got injured. None of the stories clearly state that one turtle is any better than another. And unless you can prove that Laird or Eastman were the ones who did the profiles in the rpg book, it doesnt count. They have only said that they did the artwork, if you can prove that they affected the content il accept your theory, but before that it's just your opinnion. PERIOID.

[heretic888]

besides, who gets hurt in what battle really doesnt matter. most of that is a matter of luck and chance. who is to say that if mike and raph had switched places in that battle in issue 4 that either one would have done any better than another??? its ultimately up to chance as to who get hurt or not....

most of the time, either NONE of the turtles get hurt or ALL of the turtles get hurt. Raph gets hurt quite often, but that is because he tries to do everything himself (a trait Leonardo also shares, but to a lesser degree), without fighitng with his brothers.

And, if i recall correctly, it was Mike that spent most of his freetime training when they were at the farmhouse together, not Raphael.

Don't you just find it too 'coincidental' that Mike is described as the most agile and dexterous in both the rpg and the new animated series which ARE BOTH HEAVILY MIRAGE BASED and yet you think somehow in the comic he isnt??? I think you are forgetting how important the comic and rpg were to each other in the early 80's........ almost every tmnt fan at the time had both of them, they kinda went together (hell, mirage even made these little role-playing figurines thingies for the rpg). Besides, Pete has been HEAVILY involved with the new animate series... why would he have them make Mike as 'the most talented and athletic' if he wasnt??

Besides, I actually know about martial arts and I know about ninjutsu. I can assure you the actual movements Mike does in the Eastman and Laird Mirage series are MUCH more skilled and fluid than the others, although Leo is a close second.

All the turtles have strengths and weaknesses, and special skills, that are not elaborated on in the comic. Why? Well, probably because the early tmnt fans were pretty much expected to have gotten into the rpg at least a little bit. If you want a really good comparison of which turtle is better or more skilled at what, i would suggest looking up the rpg. They have good character descriptions as well....

[Karpo_007]

Yeah i can believe mike is the most agile. Still earlier you spoke like Mike was somehow far superior to the others. Still the one who trains the most is Leonardo. That is clear. Michelangelo also trains but has hobboes like writing. Raphael is the most motivated to hurt their enemies, and Donatello the natrual smart guy.

It all depends on stories wich tyrtles are more succesfull, and stories is what makes the character. They have trained to be a team, and that is when they work best, not alone. Good example is issue 1.