Dreamwave is no more (with lots of TF discussion)...

[Barkworm]

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

True Transformers fans don't count it as part of continunity

And who gives you the right to say what "True Transformers fans" count and what they can't?

[DrSpengler]

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

True Transformers fans don't count it as part of continunity

Bullsh*t.

Just because YOU didn't like it doesn't mean it didn't happen. And you have no place speaking for "true" Transformers fans.

It happened, it's continuity in both Japan and America. Deal with it.

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by DrSpengler

Bullsh*t.p

That describes Beast Machines admirably

And you have no place speaking for "true" Transformers fans.

Actually, that was a typo

I meant to say "true, SOME Trasnformers fans count it as continunity", it came out the wrong way and I just noticed the mistake.

Besides, the majority of the fanbase agrees anyway, I'm not alone, did'nt you read the part where I said Beast Machines had a MEDIOCRE Fanbase?

It happened, it's continuity in both Japan and America. Deal with it.

Hasbro licensed the Transformers: Universe comic, Universe is undoing all of Beast Machines' mistakes, it's happening, deal with it, and do your homework on these things before giving me OLD news

[DrSpengler]

[QUOTE=ZariusTwo]That describes Beast Machines admirably

And you have no place speaking for "true" Transformers fans.[/quite]

About a billion other sites barring a slight few say otherwise, I'm not alone, did'nt you read the part where I said Beast Machines had a MEDIOCRE Fanbase?



Hasbro licensed the Transformers: Universe comic, Universe is undoing all of Beast Machines' mistakes, deal with it, and do your homework on these things before giving me OLD news

It is not undoing Beast Machines. If anyone should have done their researchit was Furman when he wrote the Ultimate Guide. And don't tell me to do my research, buddy. Between his 10,000 f*ck ups and glossing over of the Japanese shows, Furman also believed that Trypticon is Beast Wars Megatron.

Beast Machines has not been erased from any continuity, and certainly not by a poorly written book or a toyline made entirely of repaints. Until there's some Transformers cartoon series that disregards Beast Machines entirely it's part of continuity.

Or do you mean the Beast Wars comic by Dreamwave? The same people who can't even write two miniseries that flow together properly?

Guess what, Hasbro licensed the Dreamwave universe. Sh*t, I guess that means the Marvel comic never happened. Or the G1 cartoon. Or anything for that matter, because Dreamwave started from scratch.

They aren't "erasing" continuity, espeically for a continuity that's over and done with (the original tv universe is closed).

As a matter of fact, Beast Machines has just been PICKED UP as continuity in Japan! Ever heard of Beast Wars Returns? Yeah, do your research.

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by DrSpengler

It is not undoing Beast Machines. If anyone should have done their researchit was Furman when he wrote the Ultimate Guide. And don't tell me to do my research, buddy. Between his 10,000 f*ck ups and glossing over of the Japanese shows, Furman also believed that Trypticon is Beast Wars Megatron.

Looks like we have a Japanease puritan in our midst...great, there the worst when it comes to these debates, they count every series as continunity outside of the established alternate dimensions, nothing wrong with that beleif, but irrelvant to fans of the pure American shows, even I don't count the Takara years as continunity, neither does Beast Wars.

I'm not THAT biased towards Furman you know, he's had his share of screw ups (The Ultimate Guide, the Two Megatrons that screwed up "Time Wars" etc)

Beast Machines has not been erased from any continuity, and certainly not by a poorly written book or a toyline made entirely of repaints.

Tsk, touchy, touchy, poorly written? Try "Forbidden Fruit" for poorly written, try Nightscream for poorly written

Until there's some Transformers cartoon series that disregards Beast Machines entirely it's part of continuity.

Suuuuuuuuuuuuuuure....even telivision shows can continue beyond thier alleged "conclusion", just look at the Doctor Who audio adventures.

[quote[Or do you mean the Beast Wars comic by Dreamwave? The same people who can't even write two miniseries that flow together properly?[/quote]

One was bad, the second amazing and more consistent, choosing to blame different writers with differing experiance with the franchise is'nt fair on them, OR the mini-series.

Guess what, Hasbro licensed the Dreamwave universe. Sh*t, I guess that means the Marvel comic never happened. Or the G1 cartoon. Or anything for that matter, because Dreamwave started from scratch.

Dreamwave picked things up years after the first two seasons, starting in 2002, and Hasbro jumped on the bandwagon labeling it their "official" continunity, the Marvel comic did'nt happen in "proper" continunity because we saw a different origin in the first issue, the Dreamwave titles did NOT begin with a revamp of the pilot episode.

As a matter of fact, Beast Machines has just been PICKED UP as continuity in Japan! Ever heard of Beast Wars Returns?.

No s*it Sherlock, but I'm NOT a Japanease puritan like you, I don't count any of the Japanease shows as genuine extensions of the series, I never will


It was a TYPO that f*cking got me into this crap, if any of you got it wrong, I apologise.

[DrSpengler]

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

Looks like we have a Japanease puritan in our midst...great, there the worst when it comes to these debates, they count every series as continunity outside of the established alternate dimensions, nothing wrong with that beleif, but irrelvant to fans of the pure American shows, even I don't count the Takara years as continunity, neither does Beast Wars.

Ah, and that's any different from being an American-cartoon puritan? Or a UK-comics puritan?

As far as the cartoons got the Japanese series has a much richer history (despite some poorly written series) than the American shows which just ended with Rebirth.

It isn't a matter of you "not counting" Headmasters and onward as American continuity because they AREN'T American continuity. Same as me "not counting" Rebirth as Japanese continuity. It's a matter of fact, not personal opinion.

I'm not THAT biased towards Furman you know, he's had his share of screw ups (The Ultimate Guide, the Two Megatrons that screwed up "Time Wars" etc)

Don't forget his run on Armada.

Tsk, touchy, touchy, poorly written? Try "Forbidden Fruit" for poorly written, try Nightscream for poorly written

You, the guy who threw a temper tantrum because somebody called Shriek from Maximum Carnage "Scream", the guy who flips if anyone says "I like the new TMNT cartoon better", are calling me touchy? Hilarious.

And as for the poorly written episodes, there were just as many, if not more, good ones. I'm sorry if trying something different goes against your religion. We can't all be stuck in 1985.

You want poorly written try 2/3 of the episodes in G1 seasons 1 and 2. The Japanese shows may not have been great but at least they maintained consistant continuity.

Suuuuuuuuuuuuuuure....even telivision shows can continue beyond thier alleged "conclusion", just look at the Doctor Who audio adventures.

Give me a point that picks up where Beast Wars left off aside from BEast Machines. The canceled Dreamwave comic? The blurbs on the back of Universe toys?

One was bad, the second amazing and more consistent, choosing to blame different writers with differing experiance with the franchise is'nt fair on them, OR the mini-series.

I'd hardly call the second amazing. It was an improvement, but then after the debacle of the first miniseries it would almost have to be. Where was the consistency in Grimlock becoming an Autobot again without any explaination? Where was the consistency in Wheeljack coming back to life when he was most obviously meant to be dead? Where was the consistency in Superion being shown as disassembled when he was obviously vaporized? Sorry, but retconning does not count as consistency.

Dreamwave picked things up years after the first two seasons, starting in 2002, and Hasbro jumped on the bandwagon labeling it their "official" continunity, the Marvel comic did'nt happen in "proper" continunity because we saw a different origin in the first issue, the Dreamwave titles did NOT begin with a revamp of the pilot episode.

Dreamwave does not take place after the first two seasons of the cartoon, if that's what you're trying to say. And Dreamwave isn't "proper" continuity. There is no "proper" continuity, just several different ones. There's a number of different continuities going on right now, which one of them is "proper"? They're all "proper". Just as all the old ones are "proper".

No s*it Sherlock, but I'm NOT a Japanease puritan like you, I don't count any of the Japanease shows as genuine extensions of the series, I never will

A shame as they are "genuine" extensions of the series, just a different continuity. See if you can grasp the concept of "different" continuities and not just a single "proper" one which happens to be whatever you decide to shamble together in your mind.

There is no "right" or "wrong" continuity unless it's one you've bullsh*tted together in your head. Japanese continuity is official. It happened. American continuity is official. It happened. UK continuity is official. It happened. Etc.

All the "I hate Beast Machines it was different waaahhh" won't change that.

It was a TYPO that f*cking got me into this crap, if any of you got it wrong, I apologise.

Appology accepted.

[ZariusTwo]

As far as the cartoons got the Japanese series has a much richer history (despite some poorly written series) than the American shows which just ended with Rebirth.

Rebirth was vastly underated by...practically everybody I think, the animation was poor, but the episodes were solid, just...don't mention the Arcee/Daniel realtionship...sickening.

Don't forget his run on Armada.

Oh, you mean the "Hey, let's bring back all my old favourate obscure Generation One Deceptacons like Bludgeon and Thunderwing, plus my FAVOURATE, Galvatron and put them together in a pointless crossover that goes nowhere?"

Yeha, including that.

the guy who flips if anyone says "I like the new TMNT cartoon better", are calling me touchy? Hilarious.

I acted in defense of the original cartoon when those people went out of thier way to bash it in favour of the new one, anything else was perfectly fine.

And as for the poorly written episodes, there were just as many, if not more, good ones.

If by that, you mean Season Two when it was'nt dealing with the incessantly annoying Savage/Noble and hate virus rehashes, I would agree

You want poorly written try 2/3 of the episodes in G1 seasons 1 and 2. The Japanese shows may not have been great but at least they maintained consistant continuity.

Yes, I suspected you'd use that argument, which I do agree with somewhat, season one had more consitently good episodes than season two did, even Season Three is IMMESURABLY guilty of some of the worst Transformers epiosdes ever (Suprise Party, Carnage In C-Minor, Nightmare Planet, etc)

Give me a point that picks up where Beast Wars left off aside from BEast Machines. The canceled Dreamwave comic?

Had it been given a chance before Dreamwave folded, then yes, I'd use the comic as an example, Issue One is the only one supposedly coming out, I guess I could say there's an option, even if it IS open ended

I'd hardly call the second amazing. It was an improvement, but then after the debacle of the first miniseries it would almost have to be. Where was the consistency in Grimlock becoming an Autobot again without any explaination? Where was the consistency in Wheeljack coming back to life when he was most obviously meant to be dead? Where was the consistency in Superion being shown as disassembled when he was obviously vaporized? Sorry, but retconning does not count as consistency.

Things can happen off-screen, these characters can exist even when we're not reading or watching them, Wheeljack's death was never acknowledged in words, merly implied in the writing, so it could be taken that he was in some form of coma, and was revived later.

So long as you keep that in mind that characters have lives off-screen, anything is possible, at least in Grimlocks' case, as for Superion, that was probably the one aspect of Chris' work I did'nt want changed...at all.

There is no "right" or "wrong" continuity unless it's one you've bullsh*tted together in your head. Japanese continuity is official. It happened. American continuity is official. It happened. UK continuity is official. It happened. Etc.

What's your stand on Beast Wars exactly anyway? Beast Wars does'nt known which continunity to follow 90% of the time, one minute it's an expansion of Furmans' Generation Two, and the next it's an expansion of the original cartoon.

Appology accepted.

Sorry for the whole mess to begin with, I should watch my typing sometimes

[DrSpengler]

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

Rebirth was vastly underated by...practically everybody I think, the animation was poor, but the episodes were solid, just...don't mention the Arcee/Daniel realtionship...sickening.

It was a bad idea, for sure. Not neccessarily David Wise's fault, as the idea to include EVERY new character was the word of Hasbro. And budget cut-backs turned a 5 part arc into a 3 part arc.

But the how and why are regardless since the end result was a very bad three-parter. It had it's moments to be sure, but Headmasters is easily the superior series if only that it took as much time as it needed to introduce the new characters and give them personality.

Oh, you mean the "Hey, let's bring back all my old favourate obscure Generation One Deceptacons like Bludgeon and Thunderwing, plus my FAVOURATE, Galvatron and put them together in a pointless crossover that goes nowhere?"

Yeha, including that.

K.

If by that, you mean Season Two when it was'nt dealing with the incessantly annoying Savage/Noble and hate virus rehashes, I would agree

THe entire premise of Beast Machines was a stroke of creativity. It was, for all intents and purposes, the Darkest Hour of the Maximals/Autobots. With the exception of 5 Maximals, every descendant of the Autobots was dead. Megatron had WON the Beast Wars and taken over Cybertron. And none of that "letting the Autobots watch him from the moon" crap, he annihilated the enemy. It was the bleakest moment in Maximal/Autobot history (at least as far as the cartoons go) and you were never quite sure if the good guys would actually win or not. But despite all the adversity and overwhelming odds, the good guys triumphed and REAL unity was brought to Cybertron.

It was a grand finale that showed just what the Autobots/Maximals were made of. Despite the odss, they were still able to win.

Yes, I suspected you'd use that argument, which I do agree with somewhat, season one had more consitently good episodes than season two did, even Season Three is IMMESURABLY guilty of some of the worst Transformers epiosdes ever (Suprise Party, Carnage In C-Minor, Nightmare Planet, etc)

Season 3 had some bad episodes all right, but it also had something the second season never did, cotinuity. One episode lead into another, certain actions brought consequences, and concepts weren't just introduced for a single episode and then forgotten about entirely. "Starscream used to be a scientist...all right, let's never bring that up again".

Had it been given a chance before Dreamwave folded, then yes, I'd use the comic as an example, Issue One is the only one supposedly coming out, I guess I could say there's an option, even if it IS open ended

It's an optional continuity, yes, but then so is Beast Machines. However, Diamond has stated that absolutely no items from Dreamwave will be shipped (including Beast Wars).

Things can happen off-screen, these characters can exist even when we're not reading or watching them, Wheeljack's death was never acknowledged in words, merly implied in the writing, so it could be taken that he was in some form of coma, and was revived later.

So long as you keep that in mind that characters have lives off-screen, anything is possible, at least in Grimlocks' case, as for Superion, that was probably the one aspect of Chris' work I did'nt want changed...at all.

But that just isn't good writing, if you ask me. You don't leave key plot points or character developement to the reader's imagination. And if you do, do it right. This came off as just lazy.

Grimlock left with moral ambiguity, leaving his story open-ended for the next volume. But when that volume arrived he was an Autobot again like nothing had happened. A little too much like the old cartoon, if you ask me. And in the case of Wheeljack it was obviously meant that he was supposed to be dead. The least we could've gotten was a quick dialogue explaination ("Golly Wheeljack, we almost lost you there for a minute!").

It was just...lazy. The On-going I have fewer qualms with. However, it's also guilty of leaving plotlines from the second volume unanswered (like Alpha Trion). Perhaps had it gone on we might have gotten the answers. Guess we'll never know.

What's your stand on Beast Wars exactly anyway? Beast Wars does'nt known which continunity to follow 90% of the time, one minute it's an expansion of Furmans' Generation Two, and the next it's an expansion of the original cartoon.

Ya see, I always viewed Beast Wars as a continuation of the cartoon series, both American and Japanese continuity (works perfectly either way). Mainly because it just has more references to the cartoon than the comic. Starscream being vaporized by Galvatron and having an immortal Spark, Shrapnel's speech impediment, and if you want to go into Beast Machines, the Hate Plague.

Just about the only real mention of the comics (in the show itself) was Primus. However, the religion of the Transformers seen in Beast Wars itself was nothing like the religion seen in the comics. Exactly where Primus stands as a deity is unknown. I know the writers intended to make the Vok aliens members of the Swarm from the G2 comics, or something to that effect, but the concept was never implemented or even implied in the cartoon itself.

Frankly, Beast Wars fits much better as a sequel to the cartoon than to the comic book.

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by DrSpengler

It was a bad idea, for sure. Not neccessarily David Wise's fault, as the idea to include EVERY new character was the word of Hasbro. And budget cut-backs turned a 5 part arc into a 3 part arc.

But the how and why are regardless since the end result was a very bad three-parter. It had it's moments to be sure, but Headmasters is easily the superior series

Agreed, Wise did what he could, Part Three is the strongest of the three parts and flows pretty well, the first two parts have thier own little moments (mostly attributed to Primes' vision quest) but MAN the commercisilism was so...blatant.



Season 3 had some bad episodes all right, but it also had something the second season never did, cotinuity.One episode lead into another, certain actions brought consequences, and concepts weren't just introduced for a single episode and then forgotten about entirely. "Starscream used to be a scientist...all right, let's never bring that up again".[/quote]

To say nothing of how many times the Constructicons' origins were f*cked up, one minute Omega Supreme is behind them, the next they were created on Earth...

Frankly, Beast Wars fits much better as a sequel to the cartoon than to the comic book.

Agreed..

[DrSpengler]

Well, one thing I loved and hated about Rebirth was the shear volume of characters.

"Rodimus, the Decepticons are heading your way!"

"How many of them!?"

"ALL of them!!"

That was pretty tight.

[HorseTechie]

Hmm... guys? Transformers are essentially just a bunch of fictional characters Hasbro created so they can sell more toys n crap. Nothing for y'all to be getting your circuits into a knot about. Okay?

Originally Posted by Anarchistguy

I've always wanted to know this...what does everyone here think of Beast Machines?

I'm indifferent about it. I thought it was okay, even thought it made little sense as a sequel to Beast Wars and G1. But at the time it first came out, I didn't really care. I was just happy to have something fun to watch on Saturday mornings, to pass the time. I haven't seen it since then though.

But to me, Transformers = fun. It can be anything, from G1 to Superlink, marvel to Dreamwave. If it strikes some spark of amusement in me, then I that's all I need to like them. I don't like something becuase everyone else sez I must. I'm a fan of the Transformers just becuase I like the characters, the various backgrounds, and the different reasons that they are in war with each other.

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by HorseTechie

Hmm... guys? Transformers are essentially just a bunch of fictional characters Hasbro created so they can sell more toys n crap. Nothing for y'all to be getting your circuits into a knot about. Okay?

Transformers has become a lot more than what Hasbro had intended the show to be, if you think episodes like "Dark Awakening" from Generation One or "Code of Hero" from Beast Wars were "just to sell toys", there is something wrong with you.

But to me, Transformers = fun. It can be anything, from G1 to Superlink, marvel to Dreamwave. If it strikes some spark of amusement in me, then I that's all I need to like them. I don't like something becuase everyone else sez I must. I'm a fan of the Transformers just becuase I like the characters, the various backgrounds, and the different reasons that they are in war with each other.

I like Trasnsformers when it has a point to it's story...a direction, Energon/Superlink are both terrible shows, in fact, that's what's wrong with most animated shows now (barring the overuse of crappy, badly dubbed anime): All style, no bloody substance, it's the worst reason to ever watch a cartoon

At least Armada/Micron Legend was able to conclude with a mature story arc that made use of the characters in ways that most people would never beleive (Alexis/Starscream might very well the greatest Human/Transformer couple ever, it was THAT good) plus it had Unicron, but by the time Superlink ended, I was convinced the Japanese have no clue how to handle Trasnformers any more, Superlink ended with Megatron being possesed by Unicron (His body having been destroyed seven episodes too early) and Primus turning into some kind of sun which consumed him....LAME.

[DrSpengler]

Though it's doubtful the writing will improve any, Cybertron/Galaxy Force is going to be animated by Gonzo Studios, so it should at least be a lot prettier (hoping that this time America gets the FINISHED version and not the BETA, which is why Armada and Energon looked so awful).

To be honest, I liked it better when both Japan and America were making Transformers cartoons simultaneously. Now Hasbro or whoever has just gotten lazy and only imports the poorly written Japanese stuff.

Hell, the GOOD Japanese stuff may never see American shores! It's quite possible that Victory will never get a DVD release over here, nor the beautifully animated Zone OVA. And if you want a badass Unicron arc, check out the Unicron Saga at the end of Beast Wars Neo. The series may have been awful up to that point, but the finale was incredible! The ending also makes the events of Beast Machines/Beast Wars Returns all the more tragic.

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by DrSpengler

Though it's doubtful the writing will improve any, Cybertron/Galaxy Force is going to be animated by Gonzo Studios, so it should at least be a lot prettier (hoping that this time America gets the FINISHED version and not the BETA, which is why Armada and Energon looked so awful).

Here's the sad thing: Japan are supposedly remaking Armada with Galaxy Force, but Hasbro are treating Cybertron with a completly different premise and storyline for America, although both will not be connected to Energon

The Transformers comic will be a continuation of Energon though...it just goes to show how stupid Hasbro is, there pefectly willing to allow a comic contuninty but are refusing to connect thier next imported Transformers anime with the last one.

[HorseTechie]

*shrugs* Yeah, Armada and Energon came out like crap, but that hasn't stopped a good chunk of us fans from liking it anyway. A lot more than those who liked RiD and Beast Machines at least!

Galaxy Force does "look" better (just saw the first ep!), but the story is baffling. So many of us think it does have a tie in with Superlink. The correlations are so many.

But yes, I see that Armada theme again. The Autobots are again in search of these energy force chips spread out across the galaxy that they need to save their planet. And of course, we got 3 chatty kids (two boys and one girl) who are first to discover the TFs and keep them a secret from everyone else. *eyeshift* Be nice if they could for once think up a whole new story arc. Maybe.

Fight scenes are awesome though.

[DrSpengler]

So in comparisonto Rad, Carlos and Alexis, how annoying are these new children?

Before Armada came along I was certain no human character could ever out do the annoyingness of the Junior Headmasters in Masterforce. I was wrong. Please tell me these new kids aren't the next level of irritating.

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by HorseTechie

*shrugs* Yeah, Armada and Energon came out like crap, but that hasn't stopped a good chunk of us fans from liking it anyway. A lot more than those who liked RiD and Beast Machines at least!

Galaxy Force does "look" better (just saw the first ep!), but the story is baffling. So many of us think it does have a tie in with Superlink. The correlations are so many.

In Japan, it's a remake of Superlink, but it's a continuation in America...at least from what Hasbro tell us

[HorseTechie]

Oh... forgot about this jab...

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

Transformers has become a lot more than what Hasbro had intended the show to be, if you think episodes like "Dark Awakening" from Generation One or "Code of Hero" from Beast Wars were "just to sell toys", there is something wrong with you.

So desu ka? I was only just trying to speak for what makes up the other half the TF fandom. The toy collectors. They care more about is getting every cool TF that comes out first. If they can see the shows too, great. But if they don't, they don't seem to sweat it as long as they got their toys. (of course, I am not one of these fans. I prefer saving my money and watching the shows, as you know.)

You need to get out into the Transfandom a little more, Zarius, before making such a biased judgement.

Originally Posted by DrSpengler

So in comparisonto Rad, Carlos and Alexis, how annoying are these new children?

Before Armada came along I was certain no human character could ever out do the annoyingness of the Junior Headmasters in Masterforce. I was wrong. Please tell me these new kids aren't the next level of irritating.

Heh-heh... they sound annoying as is. But yet, Kicker was also annoying in the first ep, when later he became a little more palatable. I'm just gonna cross my fingers and hope those three new kids won't become whiney brats as the show progresses. The good thing at least, only two of them like to talk alot.

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by HorseTechie

You need to get out into the Transfandom a little more, Zarius, before making such a biased judgement. :

You were'nt even specific with which aspect of the fanbase you were refrencing

[Turtle Dove]

Well it's about time the fall of Dreamwave came. I for 1 am glad to see this company fall because the fans of Transformers became beyond cocky and would butt kiss DW. All that to make money off of DW and Hasbro for themselves plus to gain the popularity of a God if you sold the comics online for DW.

Take a lesson from that folks, don't let TMNT have the same fate.