5th Turtle? - Page 3

Cryomancer · 06-13-2012, 12:26 AM

They already under-use tons of characters in most TMNT incarnations anyway, and the TMNT themselves have a tenancy to become fairly one-dimensional personalities as well.

tl:dr opinions on Venus:

I watched Next Mutation for the first time recently, and Venus was not as offensively awful as people make her out to be. If anything, she's one of the least obnoxious things in the show (when not trying to make jokes, which everyone fails at equally). The presence of Venus doesn't make the other turtles in NM decide to rapid-fire terrible catchphrases every time they start their car. Her defeating Shredder right away is pretty lame (although almost worth it to have homeless shredder later on), and the overall plot for the show is essentially she something brought to their doorstep, but otherwise, eh, I've seen worse characters. Whoever decided she should wear light blue is pretty dumb though, yellow or grey or something would have been a much more sane choice (pink probably being a bit too stereotypical). Probably the biggest problem she introduces is that the guys apparently want to bang her, and therefore now they start throwing around "we're so totally not related!" stuff which undermines the family theme much of TMNT shares. She did have a unique skill set and weapon at least. Defeating Shredder would have been better handled as something a bit more drawn out probably, or with her arriving just before they were close to defeating him anyway (or, you know, afterwards). She did bring 1) an extra body and, 2) a new form of "attack" to the battle however, so it's at least slightly tolerable.

Besides the best 5th turtle is Keno, he's a Surf Ninja.

Stingray69 · 06-13-2012, 06:48 PM

[QUOTE=Jester;956340]I don't know, all I know is Venus gets a lot of flack because she was shoe-horned into the origin (which oddly enough, FW's Mondo Gecko was too...not much hate for him.) QUOTE]

Wasnt there another charactor shoe horned in like that?

Fugitoid Jones · 06-14-2012, 01:08 AM

I'm of the opinion that adding a 5th Turtle does seem unnecessary, because the 4 Turtles are interesting enough as characters to not need another member added to their team in order to tell new and fresh, interesting stories. Plus, no matter what, it always just feels forced and tacked on to say there was another Turtle with them.

BTW, I didn't mind Mondo being added to the origin, because it wasn't like he was in the bowl with the Turtles, he was just in the sewers at the time of the ooze incident. That origin connects him to the Turtles, but not in a 'missing 5th member' kinda way.

Cryomancer · 06-14-2012, 01:46 AM

The real "5th" turtle: Daredevil.

*Cowabunga Carl* · 07-28-2012, 11:09 PM

So here is a question, is it the idea of the "5th Turtle" being in the bowl what turns people off or the fact it is a turtle alone? I mean if it just happened to be another turtle mutant is it tht bad?

Bossk · 07-28-2012, 11:35 PM

I don't like the idea of adding a fifth turtle in the sense of adding one to the team, but I really hate change so I wouldn't be the best person to ask. A fifth turtle in the sense of one with them depends. If they did it sort of in the sense of it didn't fall down the sewer and the kid was able to save it temporarily or something of the sort (not the best idea, but you get the point).

If they can pull it off as an adversary or an ally without being permanently included I'll be fine, but that's just me being my static self.

*Cipher* · 07-28-2012, 11:40 PM

I don't like the idea of a fifth Turtle because it's different from what I'm used to and that's scary.

~~Leo656~~ · 07-29-2012, 05:06 AM

I think the fact Venus was more or less only created so the others could try and boink her was a big turn-off for many and soured their taste on the whole idea.

I'm of two minds, I mostly think anything CAN work if it's done well, while agreeing that some things are simply not necessary. I can see how there *could* have been 5 turtles right from the start, in fact that might even be logical, but I also don't see how/why that fifth one could make things altogether "better" than what's always been, which should be the only reasoning factor in including it.

Further, TMNT kinda already suffers from having a full cast. All 4 turtles, Splinter, and even April and Casey could be accurately called "main characters", adding another one, especially another Turtle, is cramming. Plus, in an ensemble cast each character more or less has a "role" to play and an archetype to fall back on (Leo = "Fearless Leader", Raphael = "The Angry One", etc.); each of the 4 Turtles does that famously well as each of them are instantly relatable. What kind of archetype would the 5th Turtle be? Mysterious loner? Self-important narcissist? Some combo of the other Turtles' personality quirks? Kinda seems like all the good ones are taken already.

I think it would work better as an arc than a new status quo. Like, it turns out there was always a 5th Turtle, they do the backstory, zoom up to present-day events establishing the character, then have them eventually die battling some grave new threat in a Heroic Sacrifice (TM) to save the other 4. I think adding a 5th Turtle and having them actually stick around sort of makes everyone involved less special and the entire idea slowly becomes more boring. But I'm not flat-out against the idea.

*BubblyShell22* · 07-29-2012, 07:51 AM

Yeah, I agree. It can work well provided on how it's handled. I know there are a lot of fan fic writers who have only done this idea so the Turtles could have a "love interest" of sorts. I think it's the same kind of thing as creating an OC. It can be done as long as it's done well, but there are instances when such things should be left alone.

Newton Gimmick · 07-29-2012, 09:14 AM

I think the issue is the whole 5th Turtle part itself. More mutants is fine, to an extent. When the Turtles themselves lose their uniqueness because there are more "brothers" then it's an issue. Part of the internal struggle with the TMNT in the comics and such, is that they are one of a kind. Lonely, attached forever to one another but with no one else who truly is the same.

Villains that are Turtles I'm okay with in a very limited quantity. Typically a different breed of Turtle, like Slash or Tokka, which emphasize the differences greatly. But adding another Turtle or many, who are just like the TMNT, infringes on the Turtle's own uniqueness.

*Original TMNT Cartoon Fan* · 07-29-2012, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old Hob

I find it interesting that a lot of people who don't want a 5th turtle are cool with other mutant characters. What is it about a 5th turtle that bothers people as opposed to other mutant characters?

If they had originally been five, we would talk about a 6th and so on, so it doesn't make much sense. (And I talk of the TMNT gang/family now, not Slash or Tokka)

whitefox360 · 07-29-2012, 10:02 AM

Though i totally agree that anything can be done as long as it's done well, i think the largest reasons behind the disdain toward a fifth goodguy turtle come from the fact that we already have 4 of them that have their own origin, mythology and etc.

No one's against new characters, or even new mutated turtles. But, after all this time you cant say the fifth turtle was there all along, or close by, and mean it because they quite simply werent. Thats like giving bruce wayne a twin brother in the monarche alley who also grew up to become batman so they can alternate weekends and work in shifts.

Maybe in earth 35, not in earth 1.

The fact that Anything can be written well doesnt change the fact that many things shouldnt be.

Oh, and hello everyone : )

*Mr.Turtle* · 07-29-2012, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cryomancer

The real "5th" turtle: Daredevil.

???

Cryomancer · 07-29-2012, 12:22 PM

Yes, Daredevil. Read Mirage sometime.

*Mr.Turtle* · 07-29-2012, 01:32 PM

^ what make u think he is a turtle?

Lance_Steele · 07-29-2012, 04:11 PM

The only reason why I don't really like Venus so much was the fact that she comes off as a Mary Sue. Someone already pointed out how the fact that she beat Shredder early in the seriesvwas lame enforced my opinion. Any Johnny come lately character IMO who shoe horned into an already established series like TMNT is going to be "A F***ing New Guy". Meaning it's going to be pretty hard to win over long time fans without looking like a spotlight stealing hack.

BTW I originally thought you guys were talking about Zack the so called 5th turtle. XD

*CyberCubed* · 07-29-2012, 10:49 PM

The reason people like Slash as a concept is because he's the typical anti-hero. He's the same reason Venom exists for Spiderman or why there are "dark versions" of every major hero out there.

Tokka is kinda odd, because if he wasn't always paired with Rahzar he's seem a bit bland. Sure he's a snapping turtle, but its the fact that he's not just another evil turtle makes him stand out a bit more.

*Original TMNT Cartoon Fan* · 07-30-2012, 05:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

The reason people like Slash as a concept is because he's the typical anti-hero. He's the same reason Venom exists for Spiderman or why there are "dark versions" of every major hero out there.

Tokka is kinda odd, because if he wasn't always paired with Rahzar he's seem a bit bland. Sure he's a snapping turtle, but its the fact that he's not just another evil turtle makes him stand out a bit more.

I just hate when Slash runs around in town looking for a palm tree. I love him being cool and dark.

n-zero · 07-30-2012, 08:48 AM

It's like changing the roster of the Fantastic Four. Sometimes, its interesting in the short term to see how the characters react to the shakeup, but ultimately the series is based around a perfectly crafted set of personalities that work so perfectly together that its usually a mistake to mess with that roster for more than a brief plotline.

06-13-2012, 12:26 AM	#41
Cryomancer Mad Scientist Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 1,090	They already under-use tons of characters in most TMNT incarnations anyway, and the TMNT themselves have a tenancy to become fairly one-dimensional personalities as well. tl:dr opinions on Venus: I watched Next Mutation for the first time recently, and Venus was not as offensively awful as people make her out to be. If anything, she's one of the least obnoxious things in the show (when not trying to make jokes, which everyone fails at equally). The presence of Venus doesn't make the other turtles in NM decide to rapid-fire terrible catchphrases every time they start their car. Her defeating Shredder right away is pretty lame (although almost worth it to have homeless shredder later on), and the overall plot for the show is essentially she something brought to their doorstep, but otherwise, eh, I've seen worse characters. Whoever decided she should wear light blue is pretty dumb though, yellow or grey or something would have been a much more sane choice (pink probably being a bit too stereotypical). Probably the biggest problem she introduces is that the guys apparently want to bang her, and therefore now they start throwing around "we're so totally not related!" stuff which undermines the family theme much of TMNT shares. She did have a unique skill set and weapon at least. Defeating Shredder would have been better handled as something a bit more drawn out probably, or with her arriving just before they were close to defeating him anyway (or, you know, afterwards). She did bring 1) an extra body and, 2) a new form of "attack" to the battle however, so it's at least slightly tolerable. Besides the best 5th turtle is Keno, he's a Surf Ninja. __________________ Final Boss of translation group Opentrain. We do videogame comics and TMNT stuff. http://opentrain.theyear199x.org/

06-13-2012, 06:48 PM	#42
Stingray69 Stone Warrior Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 916	[QUOTE=Jester;956340]I don't know, all I know is Venus gets a lot of flack because she was shoe-horned into the origin (which oddly enough, FW's Mondo Gecko was too...not much hate for him.) QUOTE] Wasnt there another charactor shoe horned in like that? __________________ Dream as if you'll live forever, live as if you'll die today. Looking to buy old Kool aid flavors no longer produced.

06-14-2012, 01:08 AM	#43
Fugitoid Jones Stone Warrior Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: D'hoonib, VT Posts: 886	I'm of the opinion that adding a 5th Turtle does seem unnecessary, because the 4 Turtles are interesting enough as characters to not need another member added to their team in order to tell new and fresh, interesting stories. Plus, no matter what, it always just feels forced and tacked on to say there was another Turtle with them. BTW, I didn't mind Mondo being added to the origin, because it wasn't like he was in the bowl with the Turtles, he was just in the sewers at the time of the ooze incident. That origin connects him to the Turtles, but not in a 'missing 5th member' kinda way. __________________ "You are right, I have always known about man. From the evidence, I believe his wisdom must walk hand and hand with his idiocy. His emotions must rule his brain. He must be a warlike creature who gives battle to everything around him, even himself." -Dr. Zaius

06-14-2012, 01:46 AM	#44
Cryomancer Mad Scientist Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 1,090	The real "5th" turtle: Daredevil. __________________ Final Boss of translation group Opentrain. We do videogame comics and TMNT stuff. http://opentrain.theyear199x.org/

07-29-2012, 07:51 AM	#49
BubblyShell22 Leo-holic Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Indiana Posts: 16,912	Yeah, I agree. It can work well provided on how it's handled. I know there are a lot of fan fic writers who have only done this idea so the Turtles could have a "love interest" of sorts. I think it's the same kind of thing as creating an OC. It can be done as long as it's done well, but there are instances when such things should be left alone. __________________ "A warrior who never fails, never learns."-The Ancient One. "Embrace your inner a**holiness."-Mr. Anderson.

07-28-2012, 11:09 PM	#45
Cowabunga Carl Mad Scientist Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Salt Lake City Posts: 2,384	So here is a question, is it the idea of the "5th Turtle" being in the bowl what turns people off or the fact it is a turtle alone? I mean if it just happened to be another turtle mutant is it tht bad?

07-28-2012, 11:35 PM	#46
Bossk Random Punk Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 37	I don't like the idea of adding a fifth turtle in the sense of adding one to the team, but I really hate change so I wouldn't be the best person to ask. A fifth turtle in the sense of one with them depends. If they did it sort of in the sense of it didn't fall down the sewer and the kid was able to save it temporarily or something of the sort (not the best idea, but you get the point). If they can pull it off as an adversary or an ally without being permanently included I'll be fine, but that's just me being my static self.

07-28-2012, 11:40 PM	#47
Cipher Foot Elite Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 3,454	I don't like the idea of a fifth Turtle because it's different from what I'm used to and that's scary.

07-29-2012, 05:06 AM	#48
~~Leo656~~ Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: nWo Country Posts: 27,703	I think the fact Venus was more or less only created so the others could try and boink her was a big turn-off for many and soured their taste on the whole idea. I'm of two minds, I mostly think anything CAN work if it's done well, while agreeing that some things are simply not necessary. I can see how there could have been 5 turtles right from the start, in fact that might even be logical, but I also don't see how/why that fifth one could make things altogether "better" than what's always been, which should be the only reasoning factor in including it. Further, TMNT kinda already suffers from having a full cast. All 4 turtles, Splinter, and even April and Casey could be accurately called "main characters", adding another one, especially another Turtle, is cramming. Plus, in an ensemble cast each character more or less has a "role" to play and an archetype to fall back on (Leo = "Fearless Leader", Raphael = "The Angry One", etc.); each of the 4 Turtles does that famously well as each of them are instantly relatable. What kind of archetype would the 5th Turtle be? Mysterious loner? Self-important narcissist? Some combo of the other Turtles' personality quirks? Kinda seems like all the good ones are taken already. I think it would work better as an arc than a new status quo. Like, it turns out there was always a 5th Turtle, they do the backstory, zoom up to present-day events establishing the character, then have them eventually die battling some grave new threat in a Heroic Sacrifice (TM) to save the other 4. I think adding a 5th Turtle and having them actually stick around sort of makes everyone involved less special and the entire idea slowly becomes more boring. But I'm not flat-out against the idea.

07-29-2012, 09:14 AM	#50
Newton Gimmick Mad Scientist Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 1,154	I think the issue is the whole 5th Turtle part itself. More mutants is fine, to an extent. When the Turtles themselves lose their uniqueness because there are more "brothers" then it's an issue. Part of the internal struggle with the TMNT in the comics and such, is that they are one of a kind. Lonely, attached forever to one another but with no one else who truly is the same. Villains that are Turtles I'm okay with in a very limited quantity. Typically a different breed of Turtle, like Slash or Tokka, which emphasize the differences greatly. But adding another Turtle or many, who are just like the TMNT, infringes on the Turtle's own uniqueness.

07-29-2012, 10:02 AM	#52
whitefox360 Random Punk Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 17	Though i totally agree that anything can be done as long as it's done well, i think the largest reasons behind the disdain toward a fifth goodguy turtle come from the fact that we already have 4 of them that have their own origin, mythology and etc. No one's against new characters, or even new mutated turtles. But, after all this time you cant say the fifth turtle was there all along, or close by, and mean it because they quite simply werent. Thats like giving bruce wayne a twin brother in the monarche alley who also grew up to become batman so they can alternate weekends and work in shifts. Maybe in earth 35, not in earth 1. The fact that Anything can be written well doesnt change the fact that many things shouldnt be. Oh, and hello everyone : )

07-29-2012, 12:22 PM	#54
Cryomancer Mad Scientist Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 1,090	Yes, Daredevil. Read Mirage sometime. __________________ Final Boss of translation group Opentrain. We do videogame comics and TMNT stuff. http://opentrain.theyear199x.org/

07-29-2012, 01:32 PM	#55
Mr.Turtle Mad Scientist Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: North America Posts: 1,652	^ what make u think he is a turtle? __________________

07-29-2012, 04:11 PM	#56
Lance_Steele Foot Soldier Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Killeen, Texas Posts: 139	The only reason why I don't really like Venus so much was the fact that she comes off as a Mary Sue. Someone already pointed out how the fact that she beat Shredder early in the seriesvwas lame enforced my opinion. Any Johnny come lately character IMO who shoe horned into an already established series like TMNT is going to be "A F***ing New Guy". Meaning it's going to be pretty hard to win over long time fans without looking like a spotlight stealing hack. BTW I originally thought you guys were talking about Zack the so called 5th turtle. XD

07-29-2012, 10:49 PM	#57
CyberCubed Overlord Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 43,835	The reason people like Slash as a concept is because he's the typical anti-hero. He's the same reason Venom exists for Spiderman or why there are "dark versions" of every major hero out there. Tokka is kinda odd, because if he wasn't always paired with Rahzar he's seem a bit bland. Sure he's a snapping turtle, but its the fact that he's not just another evil turtle makes him stand out a bit more.

07-30-2012, 08:48 AM	#59
n-zero Foot Soldier Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 102	It's like changing the roster of the Fantastic Four. Sometimes, its interesting in the short term to see how the characters react to the shakeup, but ultimately the series is based around a perfectly crafted set of personalities that work so perfectly together that its usually a mistake to mess with that roster for more than a brief plotline.