Wonder if there will be a Mona Lisa?

[Kingoji]

First off, I really like that first persons take on redesigning her. That really captured the aesthetic of the new series, IMO.

I'd never seen the episode with Mona Lisa because to my knowledge it never aired over here, along with pretty much anything after the first maybe three seasons. What I knew about her I had picked up from fans online, and their opinions were divisive. So on the one hand she was this adorable yet self-empowered mutant that compliments Raphael by holding a mirror up to his character, but has a personality and motivations unique to herself. On the other hand she was a token female that was written in primarily to give one of the Turtles a love interest, but whom to be fair seemed to mostly get hate because there were so many people who saw and insisted there were more to her than that.

Sooo, this morning I've watched her episode for the first time. And I think I'd lean more to the former than the latter, but there are definitely elements of both. What I was surprised to discover after watching it for myself, and that I had never heard anyone talk about before, is that she doesn't seem to have a particular interest in Raphael at all. She was a bit flirtatious at first, but that was before she realised he wasn't just some schmoe in fancy dress and were just using him to get her where she needed to be. After that she's basically just a fangirl of the whole team, and Raphael just happens to be one she's most comfortable with because they spent most of the episode working together. Yeah, Raph seems to be into her, but that felt a bit one-sided and, honestly, could easily also be viewed as having just made a fast friend. I certainly didn't get the impression that this was a romance for the ages. In fact I seem to recall that Leonardo had a MUCH bigger thing for Lotus, but I never see anyone demand that gets revisited.

But anywhoo, I guess my opinion of her now as formed for myself for the first time is that she was one of the less-stupid things the old show ever did, and I can see her getting a reworking and/or update could work pretty well. If she were done as someone who was say, mutated by careless waste disposal becoming something of an eco-warrior. Someone who would have been at the front of a protest rally when she were human who now has the power to take more direct action. Someone who is maybe so blinded by her own cause that it could lead to conflict with the Turtles. And yeah, it'd be a nice nod to have Raphael be the one to reach out to her, I honest to god see absolutely no need, historical canon or otherwise, to pair her off with someone in a romantic way.

That said, maybe she could be Mondo's older sister or something.

[Bitsy83]

The main reason I love Mona Lisa is because she was a female mutant who was NOT a female Turtle! I remember reading about her when she was first going to be introduced and they were originally going to make her a turtle, but then either Laird or Eastman stepped in and said it'd be too lame to just take one of the turtles and give her the Minnie Mouse treatment. So I really liked how they made her a lizard instead. Adds more variety.

I know a lot of people aren't happy with how the female characters are portrayed, but I think it'd be nice to not only add her to the show as an ally, but also as a friend for April. I really don't think there's a "real Irma" and poor April needs a "bestie" to hang out with. I have guy friends too, but there are moments when I need another girl to talk with and stuff, so that'd be a good time to bring her in.

Also, maybe introducing her during the Raph brainwash arc might work as well. (Look guys, we're going to get shippers regardless of who she interacts with, so we might as well get used to it). Like maybe once Raph is part of the Foot and is out on patrol, he finds her fighting some of those random thugs that are running amok in the city. When Shredder brainwashed Raph, he made up this huge story about how Splinter and his brothers wanted him dead when he was young because he thought he was too weak, but Shredder saved him, renamed him Tokka, and raised him as his own to help him seek revenge against former family. And he'd also tell him that any allies of the Turtles cannot be trusted either, including April, Casey, Leatherhead, etc.

So when Raph meets Lisa and helps her fight the thugs, he doesn't immediately hate her since she doesn't know who the Turtles are yet. He tells her his name is Tokka and they become friends, but Raph doesn't tell Shredder about her until he's certain he can "trust her."

Ok, I'll stop with my theory there since I don't want this to be too long winded, but I already made a prediction about how I'd want Lisa to be the daughter of Kurtzman and that lizard lady from the slide. Also, she could be like the April of the Mutanimals. Obviously, the Mutanimals are already a psuedo-TMNT anyway.

Slash - Leo
Leatherhead - Raph
Rockwell - Donnie
Pigeon Pete - Mikey
Kurtzman - Splinter

If my theory of Lisa being Kurtzman's daughter is true, making her the April of the group would make sense. That way, she can have more than one appearance, but not always hang around the Turtles.

[Kingoji]

Wrong thread for this, but since it were just brought up... I really don't get why people put so much stock in that lizard-lady slide. It was blatantly a throw away visual gag. May as well be upset that we never saw the Cheese-Phone twice.

[Bitsy83]

Originally Posted by Kingoji

Wrong thread for this, but since it were just brought up... I really don't get why people put so much stock in that lizard-lady slide. It was blatantly a throw away visual gag. May as well be upset that we never saw the Cheese-Phone twice.

I think it was because the animators have been putting in little sight gags here and there and have actually been shootouts to the fans:

The Man-Ray on that box in the general store in "In Dreams."

2014 Mikey's face on the Rap sheet in "The Croaking."

Muckman on the cover of one of Raph's comics, and I think Rat King also appeared on there before he was brought into the show.

You know how some fans can overanalyze things, including me. And I believe on of the animators confirmed on Twitter that it was just a throwaway gag. Still, the way Raph looked at her almost is like a hint of things to come.

[Luckyday]

Originally Posted by Candy Kappa

I'm more interested to see Koya or Alopex then Mona Lisa.

It doesn't matter which character they would choose, cause her personality would be fitted into the available token box. Now that Karai have left the Bad Girl box and are now the Lost Sister, someone have to fill the badass chick/Femme Fatale role in the show.

Must all girls that come on this show fit the polar ends of either good or bad girls?

What having role that makes her stand out?

The con woman, the chess master, the mad scientist, or crook politician or maybe in this case if she is a mutant, the puppet master who really pulling the strings. Name any role that hasn't been taken on this show that create a new type of story.

It could be said that the femme fatale and the con woman are close with difference that con women characters have personal goals and femme fatale tend to only have tragic backstories, but no offense, I just don't want see character that's copy of Karai. It kinda been and done that. I rather not see repeat of "But I can change her! She good"

[Candy Kappa]

Originally Posted by Luckyday

Must all girls that come on this show fit the polar ends of either good or bad girls?

What having role that makes her stand out?

The con woman, the chess master, the mad scientist, or crook politician or maybe in this case if she is a mutant, the puppet master who really pulling the strings. Name any role that hasn't been taken on this show that create a new type of story.

It could be said that the femme fatale and the con woman are close with difference that con women characters have personal goals and femme fatale tend to only have tragic backstories, but no offense, I just don't want see character that's copy of Karai. It kinda been and done that. I rather not see repeat of "But I can change her! She good"

It's apparently the way Nick wanna do it. It's been said that we only need two female characters.

[Luckyday]

Originally Posted by Candy Kappa

It's apparently the way Nick wanna do it. It's been said that we only need two female characters.

You know, I don't know if I'm trying to make myself feel better but I'm starting to think that it's more of a general character problem then just a female character one.

Most characters are stuck with the good or bad side. There really isn't a gray middle sides that have good intentions/goal but a royal twisted way to reach them. Or even just different sides.

I was even hoping for Bebop and Rocksteady to be the star screams of the group but no they're just another generic mutant henchman.

I really don't get their idea of having such cookie cutter characters. There really needs to be some dimension towards them or else you'll end up just watching a very predictable group of people.

[plastroncafe]

Originally Posted by Powder

I'd rather see them create new female mutants who aren't overly feminized, or bring in Koya, than have her return.

Can't we have both?
New mutant AND Mona Lisa?

Oh no wait...we can't.
We've got our "good girl" and our "bad girl".

[Kingoji]

(I am so happy that I reminded myself the Cheese-Phone was a thing. That will keep me smiling for the day.)

[Luckyday]

Oh here we go again. Looks like I had accidentally open a can of worms.

I can't help though.That "the good girl and bad" girl comment still bothers me. It's not misogynistic but it's more like a strong lack of imagination.

[plastroncafe]

I think the comment can be interpreted both ways, honestly, which is what's so maddening about Ciro having said it at all.

By saying things like 'one good girl/one bad girl' and 'female characters get too powerful' he left himself wide open for calls of misogyny as well as that he's bad at his job.

The solution to the latter is to ignore the former, but the way cartoons are marketed that's unlikely to happen.

Marketers just don't believe boys will watch a show with girls on it, all the while reaping the financial benefit of having girls watch and buy products not marketed to them.

[IndigoErth]

All these motherless kids... Make her (or someone) an adult woman. That all these kids suddenly look up to a bit whether she likes it or not, poor girl. lol

Or, what the heck, lets just play the "how many teenagers can we surround Splinter with before he loses his mind?" game.

[Luckyday]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

I think the comment can be interpreted both ways, honestly, which is what's so maddening about Ciro having said it at all.

By saying things like 'one good girl/one bad girl' and 'female characters get too powerful' he left himself wide open for calls of misogyny as well as that he's bad at his job.

The solution to the latter is to ignore the former, but the way cartoons are marketed that's unlikely to happen.

Marketers just don't believe boys will watch a show with girls on it, all the while reaping the financial benefit of having girls watch and buy products not marketed to them.

Off topic but what are your thoughts on Steven Universe?

[plastroncafe]

Originally Posted by IndigoErth

All these motherless kids... Make her (or someone) an adult woman. That all these kids suddenly look up to a bit whether she likes it or not, poor girl. lol

Or, what the heck, lets just play the "how many teenagers can we surround Splinter with before he loses his mind?" game.

Okay...that is a show I would tune in for.

Originally Posted by Luckyday

Off topic but what are your thoughts on Steven Universe?

I've heard good things, but I've never seen it, and likely won't until I can stream it for free somewhere. Mine is a cable-less existence these days.

Not having cable is one of the reasons I'm so very behind on the Nick TMNT toon.

[Luckyday]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

Okay...that is a show I would tune in for.



I've heard good things, but I've never seen it, and likely won't until I can stream it for free somewhere. Mine is a cable-less existence these days.

Not having cable is one of the reasons I'm so very behind on the Nick TMNT toon.

You are going to love the **** out of this show. It does a lot of things right in comparison to what nick's TMNT does wrong. There a lot of lore under the surface. It just makes my speculating brain very happy.

Also the Connie and Steven relationship is how you do Apritello right. I don't why but I just have to say that.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Originally Posted by neatoman

How about Angel instead?

Only if she doesn't get mutated!

[aliena]

Originally Posted by neatoman

No, no Mona Lisa. How about Angel instead?

Yes, I love Angel. She needs to be added to the show. I suppose they don't want to have anyone compete with April, but I like Angel a lot.

As for Mona, while I do like her character, I think I'm leaning more towards wanting to see Alopex more. I just wish they would add more female characters and a female mutant is long overdue. I'm not talking about Karai, she's more disabled than mutated right now. I'm talking about a mutant in control and capable of joining the Mutanimals or something.

[TigerClaw]

Originally Posted by aliena

Yes, I love Angel. She needs to be added to the show. I suppose they don't want to have anyone compete with April, but I like Angel a lot.

As for Mona, while I do like her character, I think I'm leaning more towards wanting to see Alopex more. I just wish they would add more female characters and a female mutant is long overdue. I'm not talking about Karai, she's more disabled than mutated right now. I'm talking about a mutant in control and capable of joining the Mutanimals or something.

Yeah, Karai isn't a proper mutant, She has snakes for hands and slithers around

We need a proper mutant that's bipedal. So its gotta be Mona Lisa, Ninjara or Alopex.

[aliena]

Originally Posted by Bitsy83

The main reason I love Mona Lisa is because she was a female mutant who was NOT a female Turtle! I remember reading about her when she was first going to be introduced and they were originally going to make her a turtle, but then either Laird or Eastman stepped in and said it'd be too lame to just take one of the turtles and give her the Minnie Mouse treatment. So I really liked how they made her a lizard instead. Adds more variety.

I know a lot of people aren't happy with how the female characters are portrayed, but I think it'd be nice to not only add her to the show as an ally, but also as a friend for April. I really don't think there's a "real Irma" and poor April needs a "bestie" to hang out with. I have guy friends too, but there are moments when I need another girl to talk with and stuff, so that'd be a good time to bring her in.

Also, maybe introducing her during the Raph brainwash arc might work as well. (Look guys, we're going to get shippers regardless of who she interacts with, so we might as well get used to it). Like maybe once Raph is part of the Foot and is out on patrol, he finds her fighting some of those random thugs that are running amok in the city. When Shredder brainwashed Raph, he made up this huge story about how Splinter and his brothers wanted him dead when he was young because he thought he was too weak, but Shredder saved him, renamed him Tokka, and raised him as his own to help him seek revenge against former family. And he'd also tell him that any allies of the Turtles cannot be trusted either, including April, Casey, Leatherhead, etc.

So when Raph meets Lisa and helps her fight the thugs, he doesn't immediately hate her since she doesn't know who the Turtles are yet. He tells her his name is Tokka and they become friends, but Raph doesn't tell Shredder about her until he's certain he can "trust her."

Ok, I'll stop with my theory there since I don't want this to be too long winded, but I already made a prediction about how I'd want Lisa to be the daughter of Kurtzman and that lizard lady from the slide. Also, she could be like the April of the Mutanimals. Obviously, the Mutanimals are already a psuedo-TMNT anyway.

Slash - Leo
Leatherhead - Raph
Rockwell - Donnie
Pigeon Pete - Mikey
Kurtzman - Splinter

If my theory of Lisa being Kurtzman's daughter is true, making her the April of the group would make sense. That way, she can have more than one appearance, but not always hang around the Turtles.

You completely nailed my thoughts exactly. Such a fantastic theory of them meeting while Raph is Dark. I really want her to be the daughter of Kurtzman and the lady from the slide. I would love this if it happened on the show, but I won't hold my breath.

[Luckyday]

I don't know guys. That doesn't sound as interesting as oppose to being April long lost mom from Dimension X.

Like what sort of conflict or story can she bring by being just Kurtzman's daughter because it sounds like to me that she just there and not much else to her except being April's friend and Raph's love interest? What kind of dynamic can she bring towards the group? What role does she play in the large scheme of things?

Originally Posted by TigerClaw

Yeah, Karai isn't a proper mutant, She has snakes for hands and slithers around

We need a proper mutant that's bipedal. So its gotta be Mona Lisa, Ninjara or Alopex.

That where I would disagree. I might be one of the few to say this, but I actually really like Karai's mutant design. I really wish that would been a scene of Donnie explaining of how snake's five sense are different and abstract from mammals which might justified her design but I guess that could never really happen since this show keeps trying to dumb itself down.

Sometimes I wish this show would have a sci fi bent but not towards the fact it has aliens but towards that concept of animals having human like self awareness. Like have a writer crack a book on zoology every once in while. I mean Kraang had been on Earth for thousands of years and you're telling me that none of the animals could've been descendants of mutants?