New Ep Discussion: "Cousin Sid"

Originally Posted by Leonardo Mystic

I know, but Raph didn't have to rub it in. Even if it was meant as a joke, it was still cruel. Leo already knows he made some big mistakes. He is beating himself enough as it is without Raph's ass comments.

Agreed. Raph didn't need to be an ass-dick like that. I really wanted to see Leo punch Raph in the face for that. We see Raph smack Mikey enough times, it's about time we see Leo give Raph some beatings now.

[Spitfire]

I like it when Raph plays with Leo like that. It shows us how much of a hothead Leo really is dispite how he acts.

[Jo Dawn]

*nods* I didn't see the ep... but I know what you mean. Raph and Leo are more alike than they'd care to admit... They just show it in different ways. I think it's a facinating thing to think about and watch. A very interesting concept.

I understand what you two are saying, but man, does Raph irritate me sometimes...

If I was Leo, I wouldn't put up with half the crap from Raph that Leo does. Like everytime Raph smacks Mikey. Now, I know that's suppose to be funny, but I don't find it funny at all. This is not Three Stooges, and Raph is not Moe. If I was Leo and for everytime I saw Raph smack Mikey, I would rush over there and Punch Raph in the face.

I don't like to see any of my friends mistreat my other friends, and I would certainly be pissed and act if I saw it happen.

[Mandi-chan]

Yeah, I agree. It was kinda funny at first, but now it's becoming abusive. I don't care how annoying Mikey may be, that's no reason for him to get smacked around all the time.

It was nice to see Mikey handle Raph after his jerky comment about Karai, an no I don't think he would made a comment like that.

As for Karai, they knew who's side she was going to be on. It was quite clear to me that she didn't really want to fight them, and I don't think Leo's brooding because Karai accidently stabbed him either.

[KROW]

Oy.

Leo deserved it. How many times has he let Karai get away with things and backstab him, allowing her to forsake honor for loyalty to Shredder? Just because he connects with her on a warrior's level (and probably on a more personal level) shouldn't mean that he doesn't give her a good, clean beating.

Leo was naive, and just because Raph pointed it out, doesn't mean that he should get hit for it. And so what that Leo was already going through it in his mind. Did Raph know that? Maybe, maybe not. It doesn't necessarily mean that his comment was asinine or over the line.

Think about it, now. Raph said, "Maybe Karai should stab Leo more often."

Really, the comment wasn't that bad. What do you think the meaning behind it was? Raph pushing Leo's buttons again? Not entirely. Sure, he said it so that his brother can be more like him, jumping into battle first and formulate a plan later. But this also triggered a thought that Leonardo needs to learn that trust is a very fragile thing that shouldn't be taken at face value.

Raph revealed a revelation of sorts to his brother, whether it was hurtful or not. These guys are growing up, and this little statement shows that it's not going to be easy.

[Kali]

With Raph’s comment about Karai, there’s the possibility that Raphael simply wasn’t thinking, which is entirely possible with him. It could also be that he doesn’t realize just how hurt Leo was by Karai’s actions. I’m not saying it was right, it really was insensitive (Raph? Insensitive? No… ), but I don’t think Raphael was trying to be malicious. But I do think he deserved to be locked in the closet.

Of course, it’s entirely possible that Raphael does have a clearer picture of what’s going on in Leo’s head than even Leo does, and is trying to get Leo to stop keeping it bottled up. Raph would know how bad that is for someone and could possibly be trying to get his brother to take it out on him instead of Leo beating himself up. He's always coming to rescue his brothers in battles, why not this one. By remarking about how much Leo is acting like Raphael, Raph could be trying to push the “get a hold of yourself” button. He’s just not very good at it.

[Jephael]

Last night I decided to read the issue of Tales that this episode was based on, and I couldn't get over how many moments I never noticed were in the book before. Like when Casey showed April the spot where they patched up the hole he punched in the wall as a kid (except he shows it to Raphael in the comic).

I got chills when Leo said "I hate Purple Dragons!" Can't wait to see how he behaves next episode.

[Anarchistguy]

Originally Posted by Ryona

Agreed. Raph didn't need to be an ass-dick like that. I really wanted to see Leo punch Raph in the face for that. We see Raph smack Mikey enough times, it's about time we see Leo give Raph some beatings now.

Okay. Leo already got screwed with once by Oroku Saki. He KNEW that blindly tursting him was a stupid thing to do. But despite that. He STILL gave a LOYAL and OBEDIENT servant to The Shredder a chance. You know what happened next.

I'm not trying to be an ass, Ryona. I'm just trying to prove a point

[Jaf]

Originally Posted by Kali

Of course, it’s entirely possible that Raphael does have a clearer picture of what’s going on in Leo’s head than even Leo does, and is trying to get Leo to stop keeping it bottled up. Raph would know how bad that is for someone and could possibly be trying to get his brother to take it out on him instead of Leo beating himself up.

I agree. Raph deeply loves his brothers and, despite the fact that they are very different, Leo is the one he connects the most with. After that final battle with Shredder, it would be just normal that the whole family would be more united; but Leo is actually drifting away, in his own inner world. The Mirage comics show that Leo's fascination with Karai reaches deep within him, something that none of his brothers really understands. Karai's values (loyalty to the clan, devotion to the ninja ethics, to sacrifice your own desires in order to reach a "superior" goal, etc.) are the same as Leo's, and that creates a bond between them that goes beyond the Foot/turtles rivalry. In fact, it may well be that Leo perceive the Foot Clan and the turtles as two factions of the same "spiritual family", and that he secretly wishes an utopical reunification would happen some day; at least, the leader in him would wish it. On the other hand, his three brothers are more down-to-earth : the Foot are their enemies, and Karai is second in command of that organization.

Raph is not blind, nor heartless; in his case, violence and bitterness is a way to deal with his helplessness. When he thought Leo dead, his pain was great; now that he feels they might «loose» Leo again, he doesn't know how to express it. His harsh comment was probably his way of saying to his brother «Don't go away; you're real family is right here, and we need you». After all, Karai "stabbed" Leo in more than one way; Raph used that image because he knew it would reach Leo's sensibility.

That being said, the dark tone is likely to continue for at least a few eps : the next one is based on issue 13, at the beginning of which Leo acts all paranoid. Ep. 81 will be based on issue 28, «Sons of the Silent Age», which is one of the more pessimistic and reflexive story published, with enormous tension between all the characters (SPOILER!!!!! : for all of you out there wondering if Case and Ape are going to be a regular couple in season 4, all I can say is that the two of them are REALLY getting close in issue 28. So...)

By the way, I loved the episode I'm a long time Mirage fan, so this kind of direct reference always please me. Now, if they can just get Radical in there...

[Aska_Badoura]

Well, not for nothing, but Leonardo was being pretty idiotic for not taking care of Karai when he should have. He confused honor with loyalty and fell for it more than once. He shouldn't have been fooled, and Raphael let him know it with that little comment. It simply shows that Leo has more to learn about trust.

Oh, come on... Leo wouldn't be Leo if he tried to take Karai out when she was obviously so confused. She didn't kill him when she had the chance, after he challenged her honor. Turned out she was honorable. He wasn't just gonna turn on her like that.

I think Leo sees similarities between himself and Karai and earnestly wants to save her from her delusions about the Shredder. He can see her hesitation as far as fighting against him and his brothers, and it's killing him that she won't switch sides even if she DOES see the truth. And the perfectionist in him wants to make her see things his way, because he knows he's right.

*nodnods* What she said. Can I plug a fanfic? It's based on Exodus, from Karai's POV, and puts what I think about Karai's personality into one little package. Might give you a different perspective. Or... not. :p

Ep. 81 will be based on issue 28, «Sons of the Silent Age»,

*eyes widen* That soon?! Ooooh, I hoped so... *melts into puddle* Wow, that one just really gets me...

Leo deserved it. How many times has he let Karai get away with things and backstab him,

Um... when? She tried to carry out her master's orders in "Rogue in the House", and Leo didn't have to try very hard to talk her out of it. I can't think of any other time she turned on him, except when he tried to kill the Shredder in "Exodus", and she only fled with Churell (I hope somebody tells us how to SPELL that some century..) rather than fight them. And she kicked Leo. I bet his brothers do worse than that in sparring sessions.

But this also triggered a thought that Leonardo needs to learn that trust is a very fragile thing that shouldn't be taken at face value.

Why is everyone overlooking the fact that she saved Leo's life, and got smacked in the face and nearly mutilated for it? She DID switch sides, like he wanted her to! It's all the stuff that happened afterward that makes it unclear how she'll feel about it, this season.

Raph would know how bad that is for someone and could possibly be trying to get his brother to take it out on him instead of Leo beating himself up.

Well, after thinking about it a bit, I really do agree with that, it does make sense. I just don't think it would really help Leo all that much. Might make Raph feel better; he's probably weirded out by Leo being so quiet and brooding... getting him into a fight would at least get him to open up a bit. Probably too much, though. :p

[Kali]

Originally Posted by Aska_Badoura

Well, after thinking about it a bit, I really do agree with that, it does make sense. I just don't think it would really help Leo all that much. Might make Raph feel better; he's probably weirded out by Leo being so quiet and brooding... getting him into a fight would at least get him to open up a bit. Probably too much, though. :p

It was exactly my point that that strategy would make Raph feel better, so he'd probably figure it might be worth a shot with Leo. We all go, "Hey, my friend's sad. Ice cream makes me feel better when I'm sad. I'll take her out for ice cream!" Psychologist, Raph is not.

I agree with everyhthing that Jaf and Aska said. You two are totally right and actually see what's going on with Leo.


Oh, and just to correct two things you said, Anarchistguy... Karai may be loyal to Shredder, but she's not totally obedient. And no, Leo did not blindly put his trust in Oroku Saki as you said. He only considered on partnering with him.

[XERO]

Personally, I think Leonardo can be really gullible.

Nothing to do with the life as a Ninja, but as a person.

[KROW]

Originally Posted by Aska_Badoura

Oh, come on... Leo wouldn't be Leo if he tried to take Karai out when she was obviously so confused. She didn't kill him when she had the chance, after he challenged her honor. Turned out she was honorable. He wasn't just gonna turn on her like that.

And Raph wouldn't be Raph if he didn't say what he said.

Bottom line, Karai had a lot of chances to leave Shredder but didn't. She didn't have to stay. She's a big girl and could have felt safe with Leo and the rest if Shredder seeked revenge for her betrayal. So why did she stay? Because she was raised by him? So what? Little birds have to leave the nest sometime.

I'm getting sick of everyone treating Raphael's comment as the thunder that brings World War III. Please, folks. Raph said what he said, rightfully so, and Leo took it. End of story.

[XERO]

Originally Posted by KROW

And Raph wouldn't be Raph if he didn't say what he said.

Bottom line, Karai had a lot of chances to leave Shredder but didn't. She didn't have to stay. She's a big girl and could have felt safe with Leo and the rest if Shredder seeked revenge for her betrayal. So why did she stay? Because she was raised by him? So what? Little birds have to leave the nest sometime.

I'm getting sick of everyone treating Raphael's comment as the thunder that brings World War III. Please, folks. Raph said what he said, rightfully so, and Leo took it. End of story.

Easy there, KROW.

People are just getting used to this sudden tweak in Leo's personality.

And I agree. Raphael said it because that's what Raphael does. Sarcastic wit, remember?

[Masked Ninja]

Originally Posted by Benvenuto

Personally, I think Leonardo can be really gullible.

Nothing to do with the life as a Ninja, but as a person.

Aren't we all, on occasion. But yeah, Leo's sense of honor can sometimes lead him to expect others to steer toward the right thing just because it's the RIGHT THING. He just may not get that Karai's torn.

[Aska_Badoura]

And Raph wouldn't be Raph if he didn't say what he said.

Yeah, and I agree with that. :p It's not the first time I've thought somebody should whack him on the head for something he says every now and then.

[Sage Ninja]

oooh...i'm liking this debate about Leonardo and Raphael's comment going on here. Makes me really regret that I had to work and miss it .

I didn't see what happened but that comment that Raphael made seemed callous and uncalled for. However I lot of people are making allot of good points on the reasons Raphael could have said what he said. But over all I think that it was rather ruthless to say. But I think I need to see the episode first before I form a final oppion on that.

But some one mentioned that Raphael didn't get off entirely unpuninshed by his comment, and that he some how ended up locked in the closet. WHo locked him in there? Was it Splinter, how did he manage to get the closet?

Mikey basicly suggested for Raph to be locked in the closet, so Leo and Donnie carried Raph and dropped him off in the closet.

Splinter didn't even comment on it or showed any hesitation to it.