Talkback: Laird's 2k3 development notes!

[oldmanwinters]

Notes on "Nobody's Fool," "The Lesson" (groan), "The Entity Below," and the final (yeah, right!) fate of the Shredder!
http://peterlairdstmntblog.blogspot....otes-from.html
(February 1, 2004)

Notes on "Mission of Gravity":
http://peterlairdstmntblog.blogspot....otes-from.html
(February 1, 2004)

Index on first post update!

Sounds like "The Lesson" (Working Title: "Sensei") went through quite a bit of reworking. And yet it's still one of the more problematic episodes for the series' continuity!

[Leonardo Mystic]

I love these types of entries because it shows just how much Peter was involved in the creative process. He's saved countless episodes it sounds like being really retarded. I mean, seriously. Some of the things the 4Kids' writers came up with were crap, like they really didn't even think it through.

[oldmanwinters]

Originally Posted by Leonardo Mystic

I love these types of entries because it shows just how much Peter was involved in the creative process. He's saved countless episodes it sounds like being really retarded. I mean, seriously. Some of the things the 4Kids' writers came up with were crap, like they really didn't even think it through.

Yeah, the guy really poured his heart and soul into the 4Kids toon and the CGI film as well as trying to carry one comic book series and oversee another. It's no wonder the guy got burnt out on turtles!

[lethrhd]

so is peter laird not going to have any say in the new viacom tmnt? or is he involved in some level.

[oldmanwinters]

Sooooo many updates in the past few weeks (and with pictures!)...

Hopefully I can keep them all straight:

"New Blood" and references to "Secret Origins Part 3"
http://peterlairdstmntblog.blogspot....otes-from.html
(February 2, 2004)
[Pete makes a suggestion to introduce "Vernon" into the show!!!]
[Laird was monitoring positive feedback on Secret Origins III on the 'Drome Forums!]
[If I am keeping my episode numbers straight, Pete was apparently 100% pleased with the script for "Nobody's Fool"]

"The Lesson," "The Darkness Within," "The Entity Below"
http://peterlairdstmntblog.blogspot....2004-more.html
(February 3, 2004)
[Pete says he's "not real crazy about the implied April/Don hookup" in the original draft for "Darkness Within"]

The proposed "TMNT: Overload" series
http://peterlairdstmntblog.blogspot....-overload.html
(June 28, 2007)

"The Lesson"
http://peterlairdstmntblog.blogspot....otes-from.html
(February 9, 2004)
[It's amazing that given all the thought and effort put into this episode from both Pete and Lloyd, it's STILL one of my least favorite episodes of the series!]

"The Entity Below" and "Mission of Gravity"
http://peterlairdstmntblog.blogspot....otes-from.html
(February 13, 2004)

"The Lesson" (Outline)
http://peterlairdstmntblog.blogspot....b-16-2004.html
(February 16, 2004)
[The proposed setup actually sounds more interesting than what we got in the final product]

"The Darkness Within", second draft
http://peterlairdstmntblog.blogspot....b-23-2004.html
(February 23, 2004)

"Time Travails"
http://peterlairdstmntblog.blogspot....6-2004-re.html
(March 6, 2004)

"Reality Check"
http://peterlairdstmntblog.blogspot....004-ep-71.html
(March 9, 2004)

*Index on first post updated*

[The Big Bad]

Yet another update: this time, the first draft for "Same as it Never Was", which sounds a lot different from what we eventually got.

All these updates have really made it clear to me how involved in the series Laird really was, and how deep the working relationship between he and 4Kids/Lloyd Goldfine was. I'm really glad they allowed him to wield as much influence as they did, and that they were willing to listen. It also makes me think that part of the problem with Fast Forward and Back to the Sewers is that he was no longer as involved, for whatever reason--we haven't seen any correspondence regarding specific episodes from seasons six or seven, have we?

ETA: Shameless plug: I wrote a little bit about Laird's involvement on the show on my blog.

[CyberCubed]

Did you guys read the latest entry? This one is HILARIOUS, Peter Laird went ballistic on the 4kids writers. LOL:

Mar. 30, 2004: Re: TMNT - 76 premise

From: Peter Laird
To: Lloyd Goldfine

Lloyd,

Groan.

Here are my notes on the Ep. 76 premise.

1.) To start off with, I absolutely f...ing hate this one. I'm not even sure if I should waste my time commenting on it... but I suppose I should. I'll try to only hit the high points (or is that "low points"?).

2.) Re: the following:

"We open at the turtles’ lair, deep underground, where all are abed and sleeping. All seems calm and peaceful until … <boom>, there’s a huge explosion as part of the wall explodes inward.

Laser sights beam around the room as a squad of Bishop’s commandos enter and secure the center room through much fire and explosions. "

I have said many times that the only way I will accept the discovery and invasion of the Turtles' lair as a part of a story is if that story is GREAT and there is a GREAT reason for the reveal of the Turtles' secret home. This story doesn't even come close.

3.) Re: the following:

"The turtles rise to the challenge to face him, but Bishop isn’t interested in them. "Amphibian DNA is useful, but … it’s not even close to human." He’s come for different quarry today.

Bishop: "Family Muridae, genus Rattus." He smiles at Splinter, "Namely, you!""

For (hopefully) the last time...

... TURTLES ARE NOT AMPHIBIANS!!! THEY ARE REPTILES!
REPTILES!!
REPTILES!!!
Jesus freakin' Christ...

4.) Re: the following:

"Well, the boys aren’t going to let them take Master Splinter without a fight (nor is Master Splinter going to go without a fight). So, there’s a fight.

Unfortunately, Bishop really lets himself go on the turtles and beats the crud out of them."

Great to know that all Bishop had to do was "let himself go" and he could -- single-handedly -- "beat the crud" out of all four Turtles. At the same time. Together. I sure hope he remembers to do that later in the episode when they fight again.


5.) Re: the following:

"Bishop scoffs at the groaning turtles. He’s not even going to bother to finish them off he thinks so little of them. "

Could this BE any sillier? At the very LEAST he would kill them to keep them from coming after him... after all, he SHOULD have learned from their previous encounters that they are resilient and resourceful. But no, for the sake of a RIDICULOUS "macho pose" moment, we'll have Bishop act like a COMPLETE FOOL.

6.) Re: the following:

"Bishop also has something else he’s working on. An ergonomic portable gene therapy processor that one can wear (think Bane and his "juice") as a backpack or shoulder pack.

With this, Bishop can control, regulate his own genetic enhancements on the spot … for whatever is called for: i.e. extra strength, silence/stealth, seeing in the dark."

"An ergonomic portable gene therapy processor"... the mind boggles. So basically this is Bishop's own Fred Wolf-style "mutagen" -- something he can carry around with him and squirt onto himself so he can have new powers according to what the script demands? It's almost like that old comic book "Dial H For Hero"! (Or would that be "Dial V For Villain"?) Truly, the mind boggles. (Not to mention that if he already has something that has this incredible power, what the bleeding HELL does he need Splinter for???!!!)

7.) Re: the following:

"Meanwhile, the turtles, LeatherHead and Honeycutt are barreling down the subway tunnels on target and soon …

The turtles, LeatherHead and Honeycutt burst (literally) into Bishop’s base where they’re holding Splinter.

Bishop is surprised to see them. And, he’s even more surprised to see his train car. "

And he's not the only one! What an amazing subway car this is -- somehow able to maneuver all over the place, switching tracks, etc. Incredible!
And the Turtles and Leatherhead smashing Bishop's subway car through the wall of his secret base lab -- brilliant! Why use stealth? Or intelligence? Or strategy? Let's just slam into a wall and hope we don't DIE so we can MAYBE find Bishop and fight him? (And hope he doesn't remember to "let himself go"!)

8.) Re: the following:

"The turtles face Bishop. He uses his new portable gene therapy device and really starts to kick their butts … "

Can anyone read that second line and not break out laughing?

9.) Re: the following:

"… and the turtles save Master Splinter. They carry him to the train car and roll out of there just as the whole place overloads and explodes."

Hmmm... was that the same train car that was SMASHED into/through the wall of Bishop's secret HQ? Durable sucker, that.

10.) My advice on this premise? Burn every copy.

-- Pete

[Jester]

Wow...that episode seems soooo bad.

[oldmanwinters]

Originally Posted by Jester

Wow...that episode seems soooo bad.

It's certainly a good thing Laird intervened. I think "Bishop's Gambit" became one of the most interesting episodes of Season 3, and the plot ended up sparking a lot of other stuff revisited later in the series.

[Jester]

Sounds like Good Genes would have been this episode...am I right?

[oldmanwinters]

Originally Posted by Jester

Sounds like Good Genes would have been this episode...am I right?

Nah, Laird has been going through his notes on Season 3 almost chronologically. "Episode 76" matches up with "Bishop's Gambit," where Bishop captured Splinter.

[Drako-Cat]

Originally Posted by oldmanwinters

Not a true entry in the 2k3 development notes, but I figured I'd mention that Laird has posted his conceptual thoughts on the look of the Ultimate Ninja-Drako hybrid:
http://peterlairdstmntblog.blogspot....o-designs.html

Gosh, I wish the other concept like this was uploaded! the only way I know of getting them is playing TMNT 2 Battle Nexus, extracting the art from the data of the game might work..

Anyways, thanks for linking these! ^^

[oldmanwinters]

April 3, 2004: Peter Laird softens up after Goldfine calls him out!
(But they both still hate most of the Fred Wolf series!)

(Note: The following email is one I wrote to Lloyd after he responded to my less-than-kind, shall we say, comments about the premise for episode 76 of the 4Kids TMNT show. Lloyd gently took me to task for my comparison of that premise to some of the more objectionable stuff from the first TMNT animated series. He didn't necessarily disagree with me, for the most part, but felt that I could have toned down my vitriol out of regard for the people at 4kids who were all working hard to make the deadlines required to keep the series on the air.


While I felt then -- and still feel now -- completely justified in the comments I'd made, and you can see some of that reflected in my explanation in this email about WHY I expressed myself in this fashion, I did take Lloyd's comments to heart and from that point on I gave some more thought to how I expressed my displeasure with things that aggravated me. I didn't refrain from pointing out when something seemed bad, but I did it in a slightly more thoughtful way.


Or at least I think I did. -- PL 08-18-11)

http://peterlairdstmntblog.blogspot....3-2004-re.html

EDIT:
What the heck?

I wouldn't accept Chuck Patton wanting to put points on the backs of the Turtles' heads, and I wouldn't accept some writer's idea to have a Turtle get his shell pushed in and then stick his thumb in his mouth and blow on it and thus expand his shell again, and so on

[Jester]

Originally Posted by oldmanwinters

April 3, 2004: Peter Laird softens up after Goldfine calls him out!
(But they both still hate most of the Fred Wolf series!)

Yeah, it only made the Turtles a house hold name. I can understand his total hatred for that show...wait?

[oldmanwinters]

Originally Posted by Jester

Yeah, it only made the Turtles a house hold name. I can understand his total hatred for that show...wait?

I wanna have Fred Wolf/David Wise & Lloyd Goldfine/Peter Laird on Celebrity Death Match. It would be epic.

[Jester]

Indeed it would. Say what he will about the FW series, it didn't have a back log of comic books to draw story inspiration from. The FW writers (most noticeably David Wise) had to come up with mostly unique stories, and they had to be both action packed and funny. The 4Kids series was a lot like many other animated action cartoons, the humor is kinda an after thought.

[Xav]

Originally Posted by lethrhd

so is peter laird not going to have any say in the new viacom tmnt? or is he involved in some level.

No Peter sold all the rights to Viacom and made it clear he wants nothing to do with the turtles for a long time.

[CyberCubed]

The weird thing of it all is I don't think PL actually knows what the original cartoon was actually like anymore.

Yes, it was always silly and filled with ridiculous things, but it never got too retarded and the characters were all well characterized. The plots fit that particular universe, and the writers had a ball with it.

[oldmanwinters]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

The weird thing of it all is I don't think PL actually knows what the original cartoon was actually like anymore.

Yes, it was always silly and filled with ridiculous things, but it never got too retarded and the characters were all well characterized. The plots fit that particular universe, and the writers had a ball with it.

Well, except for maybe one or two episodes.

Like this one.

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by oldmanwinters

Well, except for maybe one or two episodes.

Like this one.

LOL, even Donatello thought the idea of moth balls was ridiculous.