Official Ep Discussion: S3 Ep20: "Tale of the Yokai"

[Toadtrooper]

Originally Posted by PangolinFeets

I guess you've never heard of a Bootstrap Paradox.
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/ca...backwards/#3.1

The mythology present in the episode existed before the Turtles arrived, so they didn't create the Yokai. It would only be a Bootstrap Paradox if the Turtles introduced the mythology.

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

LOL, now I know you're trolling. You're wondering why Shen left a baby on the ground? You expected her to run into a burning building with a baby in her arms? What kind of logic are you working on?

And of course she's going to run inbetween Shredder and Yoshi, what else is she going to do?

She could have called the local authorities, as it's established they live in a developed area and not in the middle of nowhere. It's not a heroic action, but it's an intelligent one. But, hey, if you want dumb male writers to keep writing dumb females as plot devices, then by all means, keep supporting the cause instead of expecting better in 2015.

[Powder]

[DarkLightDragon]

Originally Posted by Toadtrooper

Hall of Shame goes to Tang Shen, who not only left a helpless baby on the ground to run into a burning building, but ran in front of an angry man with a deadly weapon. Not heroic. Stupid. Between her and ditsy Renet, writer fails at writing women. I'm assuming it's just Randolph Heard. He's really nothing to write home about.

Thank you. I was just about going to mention that and it's a shame too since it really cheapens the emotional and dramatic atmosphere the climax had with me.

Like, honey, getting your infant child to safety should have been your first priority, not trying to settle a dispute between your husband and his rival. I get you might feel bad that you're the reason why they're fighting, but there is nothing you could say or do to make them stop.

But no, history dictates she must die. It's just too bad it had to be more stupid on her part than it should've been.

I mean don't get me wrong, I still liked this episode a lot, but honestly, Tang Shen just ditching her baby to go into a burning building when maternal instincts should've just told her to high-tail it and fast kinda killed it.

Ah well, I'm ready for next episode either way.

[JTH]

Originally Posted by Toadtrooper

Without the Turtles meeting the Yokai that saved Hamato the first time, the episode is pointless. It never justifies why the Turtles being there is important.

If Oroku Saki had straight-up murdered the original Yokai and the Turtles had to intervene to preserve the original event, then you have a story to work with. And if that's what the network prevented from happening, then the whole episode should have been shelved and never released.

Okay, it's clear now that the whole premise went completely over your head.

"Without the Turtles meeting the Yokai that saved Hamato the first time, the episode is pointless. It never justifies why the Turtles being there is important." - It justifies them being there important because it was them that saved Yoshi all along. That's the thing I don't think you're getting. The turtles didn't go back in time to witness history play out, they were a part of the history that played out.

Remember what Donnie said at the end: "Well, it looks like history is back to normal, but how could history be back to normal if...*GASP*...unless this was always meant to happen."

Meaning they didn't understand how their meddling in the past corrected the timeline, until they realized they were always part of the timeline.

[Autbot_Benz]

Originally Posted by Toadtrooper

She could have called the local authorities, as it's established they live in a developed area and not in the middle of nowhere. It's not a heroic action, but it's an intelligent one. But, hey, if you want dumb male writers to keep writing dumb females as plot devices, then by all means, keep supporting the cause instead of expecting better in 2015.

Quickly call the Feminists and SJW's

[PangolinFeets]

Originally Posted by Toadtrooper

The mythology present in the episode existed before the Turtles arrived, so they didn't create the Yokai. It would only be a Bootstrap Paradox if the Turtles introduced the mythology.

Moot point. You said:

who did they displace? It refuses to answer how Hamato was saved before the Turtles even existed.

The turtles save Hamato. They're not displacing anyone. They were always the ones who saved Hamato.

[Toadtrooper]

Originally Posted by JTH

Meaning they didn't understand how their meddling in the past corrected the timeline, until they realized they were always part of the timeline.

Except they weren't, because Hamato still had to go to NYC and buy the Turtles or else they wouldn't exist to go back in time. So Hamato still had to be saved by something the first time that was not the Turtles.

To use PangolinFeets' article in a way he didn't intend:

"The idea of backward causation should not be confused with that of time travel. These two notions are related to the extent that both agree that it is possible to causally affect the past. The difference, however, is that time travel involves a causal loop whereas backward causation does not.

[TurtleTitan97]

Originally Posted by Toadtrooper

Except they weren't, because Hamato still had to go to NYC and buy the Turtles or else they wouldn't exist to go back in time. So Hamato still had to be saved by something the first time that was not the Turtles.

No it doesn't. It's like Renet explained, the Turtles were always meant to travel back in time to save Splinter.

Fixed timeline, dude. Nuff' said. If they didn't show up, Splinter would have died in that fire. Simple as that.

[neatoman]

So now that I have let everything sink in, I like the episode but I'm not crazy about it.

I think a big reason for that is that I have already enjoyed a much more intereting expansion of Shredder's origin, The Secret History of the Foot Clan.
SHotFC does have many similar ideas to this episode but sheds more light on the backstory instead of mostly just being stuff we already knew, it ties into the story much better as a result. It also had the advantage not being as restricted as a kid' show must be, an example being that it actually showed Shredder murder his father.

[TurFlytle]

Originally Posted by Toadtrooper

She could have called the local authorities, as it's established they live in a developed area and not in the middle of nowhere. It's not a heroic action, but it's an intelligent one. But, hey, if you want dumb male writers to keep writing dumb females as plot devices, then by all means, keep supporting the cause instead of expecting better in 2015.

By the time she would have called the authorities, the house would have burnt down and more lives would have been lost. This was in the 90's not the 2000's. Cellphones weren't even a thing then, there were no phones nearby. Get your facts straight. I'd like to see you trying fitting a plot into a 22 1/2 minute episode. Plus, Tang Shen was involved in the creation of the turtles in most of the versions. She died in every incarnation that she appeared in.

[IndigoErth]

Really kinda like this one. Nice fight scenes and the souls... though your butt...? wow. Funny coming from Leo though. lol But Mikey with the supposed cucumber in that same scene was a bit disturbing though... o.O That just... yeah.

Fave part though was Leo holding baby Karai who's tugging on his mask tails; that's right up there in adorableness with the tea party.

Seriously though... it might have been Tang Shen's fate to die during the incident - but the Turtles... why did no one take and hide the baby?? *sigh* Was rather expecting them to when they heard her.

Sure it's messing with the past, but keeping Karai with her father doesn't necessarily change his decision to move to NYC and buy pets on that fateful day. But it could have played into other episodes and be the "cure" to save Karai from what's become of her. Ah well...

That paradox though. >.< Ow...

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by Toadtrooper

She could have called the local authorities, as it's established they live in a developed area and not in the middle of nowhere. It's not a heroic action, but it's an intelligent one. But, hey, if you want dumb male writers to keep writing dumb females as plot devices, then by all means, keep supporting the cause instead of expecting better in 2015.

She had time to call the authorities when the place was on fire and she knew they were fighting to the death? She left her baby right outside, not in the middle of the wilderness.

Your feminist rant is absurd. More like YOU don't know what a good written female character is.

[MrTMNT2012]

Very nice twist on the whole "Tale of Hamato Yoshi" storyline.

This is the kinda episode that reminds you why Kevin Eastmen called this the best version of the Ninja Turtles!

[Powder]

The scene where the embraced the turtles whole kappa/yokai thing & terrorized Shredder's ninjas may be my all time favorite moment in this show's history. It was just ridiculously badass & hilarious, a perfect combination. Their maniacal laughter, the flames, their heavily shadowed forms with white eyes, sooooooooooo cool...

[Toadtrooper]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Your feminist rant is absurd. More like YOU don't know what a good written female character is.

Well-written, but whatever.

Originally Posted by TurFlytle

This was in the 90's not the 2000's. Cellphones weren't even a thing then, there were no phones nearby.

Since we're already making up stupid time rules, Donatello's T-phone could probably link to an existing network and dial an operator, completely removing Tang Shen from danger.

But, no, use the only real deus ex machina in the episode to show a picture that wouldn't exist either time that history was rewritten.

[TurtleTitan97]

Originally Posted by Toadtrooper

Since we're already making up stupid time rules, Donatello's T-phone could probably link to an existing network and dial an operator, completely removing Tang Shen from danger.

You do realize that if he even did that he'd be tampering with history even further, right?

[CyberCubed]

Why are you so angry? Its a classic time travel paradox. You seem hotly bothered.

[IndigoErth]

(Ok, bunch of posts submitted since started writing this, but whatever, not wasting all that thought so just hitting submit... )

Not worth arguing about... it already was, and generally is, the background history and was going to remain the history. People make split second decisions, sometimes they aren't for the best. Clearly the action that seemed most urgent to her in that moment was trying to help her husband. Urgent enough that other help would never be there soon enough. Yes, she left her child alone, but she didn't have any reason to believe anyone would run off the baby, who she left at a safe distance because there was no other choice. Even if Saki was fighting with Yoshi, given her recent interactions with Saki, she had no reason to think that he'd take her child. (Besides, if the kindly Yokai were around maybe she thought her child would be guarded.)

Of course... weirdly, if Saki was under the impression that Yoshi also died...it's not necessarily ill intentioned to take the child with him if she was laying there alone and orphaned. It would be more cruel to leave her there. Though he should have sought out the child's other blood relatives instead since he knew the truth. Selfishly held on to that connection to Tang Shen, but probably(?) not intended badly or meant to be held against anyone...until he found out he could years later.

It's history and was going to remain history no matter if her choices were wise or not. No "feminist rants" or accusations of it necessary. And honestly not sure if too many guys should argue what a well written female character is or isn't.

[Ninjinister]

Originally Posted by Toadtrooper

Without the Turtles meeting the Yokai that saved Hamato the first time, the episode is pointless. It never justifies why the Turtles being there is important.

TMNT has used the predestination paradox for almost 30 years, yo. Why do you just now have beef with it?

The Turtles were the original "Yokai" who saved Yoshi. They always were. Period. Just like Raphael was always the inspiration for the founding of the Foot Clan in Mirage.

Time travel, since it's not proven to be a real thing in the way depicted in fiction, does not have a concise set of rules. You can't apply one work of fiction's restrictions to another's.

[Meliwen]

I really loved this episode. Definitely my favourite season 3 episode.

The yokai turtles were great. I also like how they mention in the legend that yokai brought tragedy with them, and the same thing remained true with the turtles.
Shen was wonderful.
Miwa was adorable.
I liked how Yoshi wasn't portrayed as a perfect character. He was dismissive of his brother, and had a somewhat strained relationship with Shen, but still in the end did his best to make things right.

My only problem with the episode was how quickly Saki went from, "let's go to New York and leave the ninja life behind," to "I want to kill the Hamato clan so I can lead the new Foot Clan." For me it was a little abrupt and I would've liked a little build up to Saki's intention to kill the Hamato clan while apparently going back on what he promised to Shen previously.