New Ep Discussion: 4-14: Ancient One

[Sewer Bull]

Originally Posted by Anarky

Well, maybe we don't see the TMNT as a highly philosophical program but as a cartoon.

http://www.opencourtbooks.com/categories/pcp.htm

Someone should add "TMNT and Philosophy" to this series. Really.

[Fledermaus]

Originally Posted by Anarky

It could also be that you all were overanalyzing once again. I mean, you all do such an awful lot of interpretation. Mikey could walk backwards for two steps and I'm sure one of you would go "That expresses his character in terms of his own shyness due to some childhood accident involving two teletubbies and a half-molten ice cream cone."



Well, maybe we don't see the TMNT as a highly philosophical program but as a cartoon.

As for my comments to the episode. If that was "Leo's cure" then I'm highly disappointed. I mean, a cruise and "I'm my own worst enemy" doesn't solve anything. That's no cure, that's the first step towards it.

I love you too, Anarky... Condescending as you can sometimes be. I am fully aware that this is a cartoon, and not the writings of John Donne or Aristotle. How quick you are to write me off that way. Can't begin to tell you how much I appreciate that. However I have reason to think that the writing in this series is not mindlessly churned out(like in other series), though you have had that decision made up in your mind for quite some time. I can see that the people working on this series care about their work. Otherwise, I wouldn't waste my breath. Fingers.

Now, if you still think I am insane for what I do, just know that I am one who is inclined to analyze how writing works or doesn't work. I don't just enjoy art, I try and understand it. Because I make it. Because my future depends on my ability to make it...

Some of us see cartoons as cartoons. Some of us, I guess, see cartoons as philosophy. Others, as money. Some of us see "cartoons" as art. You know, animation, writing, pacing, visual mood. It all counts, because cartoons are another form of storytelling.

Though I think I may be a fish out of water on that one.

I still think that makes a lot more sense than the writers actually being stupid enough to think that fart jokes are still in. That, and the parallel is fairly logical. Weird, oh yes. Disgusting? Good Lord, indeed so. But I made the conjecture because it actually did make sense to me after thinking about the "tools" that went into creating the overall effect. This is a matter of understanding the art, not a matter of understanding the soul.

I don't think there's yet reason to assume that this episode was "Leo's Cure". From what I can see, it was only the first step, which is acknowledgement of the problem. We'll know for sure whether this episode was supposed to be the final stage of the battle for Leo in later episodes. I agree with you on this, Anarky. If it just ended this way, that would be pretty disappointing. But then, I was disappointed when the turtles didn't kill Shredder in Exodus, so I'm trying to stay a little open on this direction.

Now I better shut up so the wise ones can speak. And go finish some art. Words can be such a drag...

[Masked Ninja]

I agree... I do think that they put a decent amount of thought into this. And even if they didn't intend the fart aspect of it to parallel that, I still prefer to think of it that way. Because otherwise... I hate fart jokes.

This show has great writing. It also has great animation, and some episodes leave me with my jaw on the floor. This ain't feature animation, but it's sure as heck better than most weekly TV shows (kids' OR adults' cartoons) out there. They get major points... and have earned one fan who sneaks down to her dorm's lobby of Saturday mornings to catch Turtles.

So yeah, overanalyzing. We do it, I know. But seeing as we're aware "it's just a cartoon," we don't need to be constantly reminded of that fact. We're doing what we enjoy, don't rain on our parade

[Anarky]

Originally Posted by Masked Ninja

So yeah, overanalyzing. We do it, I know. But seeing as we're aware "it's just a cartoon," we don't need to be constantly reminded of that fact. We're doing what we enjoy, don't rain on our parade

But then you're not in a position to say (let's take this episode as an example): "The fart jokes were no fart jokes, they're a symbol of blahblahblah..." because you simply have no official proof to back it up. All you could say is that it's a possibility but not shoving something down someone's throat which only is an assumption.

Besides, it is not a very polite thing to do, but that's just me.

[Fledermaus]

Originally Posted by Anarky

But then you're not in a position to say (let's take this episode as an example): "The fart jokes were no fart jokes, they're a symbol of blahblahblah..." because you simply have no official proof to back it up. All you could say is that it's a possibility but not shoving something down someone's throat which only is an assumption.

Besides, it is not a very polite thing to do, but that's just me.

Proof?

*rubs tempholes*
I guess I don't really know what you mean. I doubt a single one of us is a writer for the show, Anarky. So no, we will not have hard "official" evidence of this possibility. The most we can do is conjecture and back up our ideas with reference from the show. Which we have been doing.

[iris]

And now, a poem.

"duh" by I.K. Underhill

ever words fail to convey
subtle shades of passing days
ever pictures fail to capture
transience in pain or rapture

moving pictures, color, sound
all eyes on the common ground
will depart with separate views
separate hearts know separate hues

Originally Posted by Fledermaus

Did you read the past posts? IT WASN'T COMEDY!! IT WAS A SIGNIFICANT PLOT POINT!

Fled, I really like your philosophici-- philosopic-- um... your posts that try to explain stuff. But it's a little-known fact of life that hardly anyone reads as closely as you think they will. That's a painful truth for a technical writer like me. Even when people pay close attention, they have inevitably divergent perspectives and values. Take that into consideration. You'll live longer. And I would like that.

Originally Posted by Anarky

I mean, you all do such an awful lot of interpretation. Mikey could walk backwards for two steps and I'm sure one of you would go "That expresses his character in terms of his own shyness due to some childhood accident involving two teletubbies and a half-molten ice cream cone."

Analysis can be fun. Especially when it involves developing a logical interpretation of something ridiculous. Or a ridiculous explanation of something logical, as you like it. Sorry you feel it's forced down your throat. Ick.



Now, I wonder why it's so incredibly warm in that valley compared to the mountain from which we're viewing it? The mountain doesn't appear to be so incredibly different in elevation. Perhaps the valley lies along an active fault line that allows geothermal energy conduction to the surface environment. Why else would the Ancient One's valley have such warm air?

[Aska_Badoura]

Deserts, in mythology, are often places of spiritual confrontation and epic battles. Eg. Jesus in the desert, Israelites wandering in the desert, Western heroes coming out of and disappearing into the desert, Star Wars... And there are many more examplesn I can't think of.

Well... some of us believe the Biblical examples of people in deserts to be history, rather than mythology. :p But I understand your point. Besides, the Lord frequently uses situations for symbolism as well.

I mean, you all do such an awful lot of interpretation.

But it's funnn! Picking apart the psychology piece by piece and driving everyone crazy! :p

If that was "Leo's cure" then I'm highly disappointed. I mean, a cruise and "I'm my own worst enemy" doesn't solve anything. That's no cure, that's the first step towards it.

(Be careful. That sounds very much like an analysis. ) True. I don't think that's the end of it. There is a rather heavy hint at the end of this ep that the next one will be a narrative of something that happened in Yoshi's life that was similar to what Leo is experiencing now (at least, I hope that's not going to be one of those "off-screen" moments ). There will probably at least be a reinforcement of the foundation that Leo has forged in this ep. And I think the Ancient One will help him build on that foundation, and send him on his way, when Leo can build himself up again on his own.

Someone should add "TMNT and Philosophy" to this series. Really.

Hey, cool! I didn't know about those. Add "Gargoyles", too. And probably numerous other animations, I'm sure. Wow, you could go nuts with those.. :p

Now, I wonder why it's so incredibly warm in that valley compared to the mountain from which we're viewing it? The mountain doesn't appear to be so incredibly different in elevation. Perhaps the valley lies along an active fault line that allows geothermal energy conduction to the surface environment. Why else would the Ancient One's valley have such warm air?

LOL. You're evil... I think it's magic/astral projection kind of stuff. Yeah. :p

[onyx]

Now, I wonder why it's so incredibly warm in that valley compared to the mountain from which we're viewing it? The mountain doesn't appear to be so incredibly different in elevation. Perhaps the valley lies along an active fault line that allows geothermal energy conduction to the surface environment. Why else would the Ancient One's valley have such warm air?

I told you, Japan is on another planet according to them

[Raph's Girl]

Originally Posted by onyx

I told you, Japan is on another planet according to them

Is planet Japan in the same system as Planet Texas and Planet Switzerland??

I saw a special on a major volcanic eruption that occured in the 1800's that was narrated by Cam Clarke (OS Leo) a couple weeks ago and I swear at one point he goes "Meanwhile on planet Switzerland..."

[Cure]

Originally Posted by Fledermaus

Proof?

*rubs tempholes*
I guess I don't really know what you mean. I doubt a single one of us is a writer for the show, Anarky. So no, we will not have hard "official" evidence of this possibility. The most we can do is conjecture and back up our ideas with reference from the show. Which we have been doing.

He's talkin' about when Poweranimals said he ain't like the fart jokes, and you responded in all caps that it was a significant plot point. You can't yell at him for disliking the farting because you think it was a significant plot point. You have no proof that it was.

[Sakirules]

I missed it.

Whats this I hear Splinter lose to leo?

[Fledermaus]

Originally Posted by Sakirules

I missed it.

Whats this I hear Splinter lose to leo?

http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showthread.php?t=211164

Dread always has very thorough recaps on the episodes.

And you guys think I write too much.

[Masked Ninja]

And he throws in some nice analysis. I used his synopsis for Exodus pt. 2 because my station blanked out from the time Karai stabbed Leo to the Utrom intervention. (Hence, I missed all the carnage )

[DIrishB]

Originally Posted by onyx

Hi everyone, I'm new here, though I have read the forums for some time.

I saw that everyone shared their impressions of the episode, so I decided to point out a few things that no one seems to notice.

First, I'll say that I didn't like this episode. It didn't fit the general plot well and for the most part, the scenes looked like they're made only to take time.

Now, to the beginning of the episode, when Leo cut Splinter... We've seen Splinter dodge impossible situations before, block powerful blows, catch arrows in the air and so on. We've also seen him disarm Leo with almost no effort using his walking stick (if I recall correctly that was in the episode when the Turtles were arguing which weapon is better, I think in season 1). Of course, Leo is growing up and getting better, but how much better can he be? Also, let's not forget that Splinter is an ex-Battle Nexus Champion. And now he gets disarmed twice and very easily by his student, and doesn't even try to dodge Leo's blow when he cut him? In the previous episode, when Usagi was sparring with Leo, the bunny seemed to dodge/block Leo's attacks pretty easily, I doubt Usagi is better than Splinter...

Maybe you're looking at it the wrong way. Splinter is a very intelligent and wise type of guy, and he knows Leo has been battling with his inner demons ever since the final fight with Shredder. He probably also knew that this might be best dealt with through whatever lessons the Ancient One could teach him...even if they were accompanied by a lot of farting. So, as other members have already mentioned, he allowed Leo to cut him, to make Leo feel guilty and more willing to listen to his advice of going to meet the Ancient One. Manipulative, maybe, but all for a good cause.

Also, I really think this should have been the moment when Raph finally jumps on Leo. I've been waiting to see a real fight between them for a long time. Instead, Raph just calls him hothead. That's not Raph. He goes all mad when Leo damaged his punchbag, but he does nothing when Leo cuts his sensei?

Probably because even Raph realized that Splinter might have been seriously injured and that wouldn't be the time to start a childish fight. Even Raph is growing as a character, and that means he's at least a little more level-headed.

Since when Japan is on another planet? How come we never saw people there, except for the farting Ancient One? I understand that Leo was trying to avoid big cities, but still, Japan is pretty crowded, we should have seen at least some people. Instead we got Yeties and Ghosts...

I figure he avoided being seen (for obvious reasons) and we saw the important parts of his journey. Nuff said.

Speaking of Yeties, what exactly were they doing there? They seemed totally unrelated to the plot to me, like placeholders or something. And, the lesson they taught Leo was lame. "He who attacks in anger falls"... Ok, Leo defeated his sensei in the beginning and he was fighting with anger. Leo defeated that "Bebop" assassin in the previous episode (one of the most skilled assassins in his world) and he was fighting with anger. He was fighting with anger in other occasions too (Hun, Elite Guard etc.) and he always won. Suddenly, Leo is useless against those two only because he's angry? It seems to me that Leo must be even stronger in his anger if he managed to defeat Splinter...

Again, I think Splinter let him do that, all as part of a plan to get Leo the help he needed to find inner peace. As for him fighting the other adversaries in anger, sometimes it works, sometimes not. Especially when fighting a creature four times your size.

The other things were nice, I liked the symbolism in the demons and the rock monster, I loved the scenery and the acting, but the sparring, Japan and the Yeties ruined it for me.

I see where you're coming from, I just think you're looking at it from the wrong point of view. This is an episode where a conspiracy theorist mind-set might have been helpful, especially in the case with Splinter's injury. I really do think it was intentional on Splinter's part.

[onyx]

Well thank you for the detailed reply, but do not forget - all these are theories - you can prove the same amount of them as I can: zero. And if my way of looking is wrong or yours is, only the creators can say

Originally Posted by DIrishB

So, as other members have already mentioned, he allowed Leo to cut him, to make Leo feel guilty and more willing to listen to his advice of going to meet the Ancient One. Manipulative, maybe, but all for a good cause.

Watched the sparring several times and still, I can't see Splinter controlling things. Not with that surprised expression when he got disarmed. I simply stopped arguing here because all the others think that he let Leo cut him. I can't make them change their opinion, I can't prove anything, so it's pointless.

Originally Posted by DIrishB

Probably because even Raph realized that Splinter might have been seriously injured and that wouldn't be the time to start a childish fight. Even Raph is growing as a character, and that means he's at least a little more level-headed.

How much more level-headed since the previous episode, when he went off because of his punchbag?

Originally Posted by DIrishB

Especially when fighting a creature four times your size.

Splinter vs. Drako on the Battle Nexus tournament - end of discussion. Size doesn't matter. To me, the bigger question is "why Yeties?"

You have your opinion, I have mine. I won't try changing yours just because it's different. To me, if they wanted the people to know that Splinter was controlling the situation, they would have given a hint - for example the expression on Splinter's face would have been enough.

[longing for leo]

Hmmm, maybe Splinter wasn't consciously letting Leo win, but he still may have been checking his own fighting to judge how out of control Leo was. Splinter might have been attempting to keep a good balance between their skill in the fight, but then Leo took him by surprise by going up a level, or something. Perhaps Splinter wanted Leo to see how out of control he'd become, and subconsciously realized that the only way to do that was to let Leo see himself hurting his family. Splinter sure seemed to be asking for it by continuing the fight after he was disarmed.

I agree that it seems unbelievable that Splinter would intentionally let Leo hurt him, and his expressions certainly proved otherwise. That's why my take is somewhere in the middle. Splinter was keeping his skills in check, but overcompensated to the point that Leo got a hit in. This shocked them both cause they didn't know that Leo had gotten this bad, and yet Splinter was kinda expecting it. Or was at least prepared for it. *shrug* I don't know, that's just how I made sense of it.

And on the farting topic, I like the idea that it's a metaphor. Even if the writers didn't intend it, a deeper meaning appeals to me much more than "oh, and here's another fart joke, wasn't that clever." I'd like to think that the writers give kids more credit than that. Sure, the piggyback one got me, but all of the others became really old, really quick.

And I agree that this couldn't have been "the cure," but instead the beginning of the cure. The first step is acceptance, and now he's done that. Great, so let's see the rest of the healing process. I hope we get a few more episodes in Japan, and then even some healing eps in NY...that is unless he comes back to find Karai's captured his bros or something, threatening Leo's new found cure...

[Turtleman100]

so is leo ok now or what. The fat farting master was funny.

[Leonardo Mystic]

I was talking to another Leo fan who is a close friend of mine about this last night, and she agreed. I happened to notice when looking at the screen shots from the Ancient One in the screens thread that something was different than usual about Leonardo's appearance. It actually looked like he'd lost weight.

At first, I thought it was just me, or the way he is being drawn these days. Though when I showed my discovery to my friend, she admitted she thought he looked different too, but she just didn't know what. The idea I presented made the most sense. So I went back searching through screens done towards the beginning of the season, and compared them. Indeed, Leo has lost weight. In A.O., his face is sunken, and his cheek and jaw bones are sharper, more prominent, and even wearing the coat, you can tell he is leaner. I would not be entirely surprised if the case is true. Remember, he refused food completely in "Cousin Sid". It may have continued. He was probably affected to the point it caused to interrupt his normal eating and sleeping patterns.

I don't know if anyone else noticed this, but I thought it was interesting.

[longing for leo]

Indeed, Leo has lost weight. In A.O., his face is sunken, and his cheek and jaw bones are sharper, more prominent, and even wearing the coat, you can tell he is leaner. I would not be entirely surprised if the case is true. Remember, he refused food completely in "Cousin Sid". It may have continued. He was probably affected to the point it caused to interrupt his normal eating and sleeping patterns.

Yeah, I noticed that too. It makes a lot of sense. And even if he wasn't skimping on food, he's been training so much that he's got to be getting leaner. Plus, he probably didn't eat a whole lot on that really long boat ride, not knowing how long his journey would take (and maybe feeling too seasick to eat anyway) since it was the most noticable after he arrived in Japan, like you said, mainly in the coat. I have to admit that I thought he looked good...but I don't want him to be unhealthy. I wonder if they'll keep it off and make him smaller than the others, or if he'll backslide.

It's interesting that his bros never mentioned anything about it (well, except all the training references). There's a story that comes really close to this in Fanfiction.com. If you look for it, it's only a couple weeks old, so you should be able to find it. It's a good story, albeit a bit depressing.

[Turtle Dove]

THis is too sad to read- I don't want Leo to go crazy.I really hope he gets back on his feet and bomeday becomesthe Leo we oce knew & loved