Leo & Donnie-Should they butt heads?

[Warhorse]

Originally Posted by ssjup81

I can't help but wonder if Splinter appoints Donnie as leader, or if he just does so on his own. If it's the former, I could see a scenario involving an annoyed Raph occurring and storming off to cool off.

In New Girl in Town, I think it was, Donnie kept his cool while Raph freaked out and instructed Raph to get Mikey and run after he used his bo to partially trap Snakeweed. That could've been foreshadowing right there. Seems Donnie loses his cool in a high-stress situation if his time is limited (Gauntlet) or if he can't figure something out.

Yeah, I find Splinter to be rather mean to Raph at times. Whenever he wins a sparring match, Splinter punishes him for it. When the others win, they get rewarded. I wonder if the show is doing that on purpose. We already seen April get mad at Splinter for not being the ideal father figure, calling him out when he hid while his sons were out there fighting his battles for him. Maybe this is all building up for when Raphael finally snaps.

Originally Posted by victory_angel

Well Donnie I think understood Leo's burden in leading the team. Raph wanted leadership because one he is jealous of Leo and seems to equate Leo being appointed leader is another way for his older brother to rub the fact he's better in his face. When in reality, Leo didn't ask for the role because he felt he was better then his brothers, but because it felt like a privilege.

Raph on the other hand equated Leadership with getting your way no matter what. So when Donnie isn't working fast enough for Raph's liking, he tells threatens to hit Donnie if he didn't work faster. And then later when

In New Girl in Town when Leo gives Raph the leadership role. Donnie just tells Mikey that Leo needs his space because leading their group is certainly not easy. And later when Raph freaks out Donnie doesn't need to think or ask himself what Leo would have done, because he knows Leo would have gotten them out of there.

Later in Follow the Leader, Raph takes the leadership role again. And when Donnie and Mikey start to question it, Raph just says "We don't have time to argue, lets go rescue Leo."


Wormquake is Donnie's true debut role as a leader, and even though he's concerned about what has befallen his brothers he keeps focused on keeping April and Casey safe until they are able to figure out how to get to Leo, Raph, and Mikey.

Where as when Leo comments about the "Others" (meaning Donnie, April, and Casey) were trapped in the dimensional gateway. Raph says "And the brains of the team is trapped there with 'em." Before telling Leo he's at fault for that.

So I think if Donnie's leading the group in Leo's absence, I don't think there will be much question or issue about it.

I so hate the idea of Donnie being leader after Leo. I rather be it Raph, since he and Leo are the top dogs in the battle arena, Raph should be in second command. Donnie has enough glory in this show, let Raph have some.

I am wondering if this Ciro guy is purposely trying to get Raph and Mikey fans to hate Donnie for all of the story arcs he's getting. If that's their intent, good job guys!

[ssjup81]

I blame the OT for this, but I always viewed Donny as second in command...and for the OT he led quite a bit, even with Leo right there.

Raph and Mikey are the impatient ones. Leo and Donny are the levelheaded ones. It would make sense for Donnie to be given the responsibility of leading as opposed to Raph, imo, because of that alone.

[victory_angel]

Originally Posted by Warhorse

Yeah, I find Splinter to be rather mean to Raph at times. Whenever he wins a sparring match, Splinter punishes him for it. When the others win, they get rewarded. I wonder if the show is doing that on purpose. We already seen April get mad at Splinter for not being the ideal father figure, calling him out when he hid while his sons were out there fighting his battles for him. Maybe this is all building up for when Raphael finally snaps.

Raph is punished during Sparing matches for his actions. The first episode Raph got a claw in one of his pressure points because he was gloating about coming out as the victor of the match even though the purpose of the match wasn't to show who was the better fighter. But rather to show how their fighting technique has improved.

So yes Splinter does punish Raph more then the others, but the punishment isn't unjustified.

When April called him out about the fact he's waiting in the lair while his son's go out and face certain danger he snaps at her and says "I don't have to explain myself to a child." but later admits she was right to do so.

[Warhorse]

Originally Posted by victory_angel

Raph is punished during Sparing matches for his actions. The first episode Raph got a claw in one of his pressure points because he was gloating about coming out as the victor of the match even though the purpose of the match wasn't to show who was the better fighter. But rather to show how their fighting technique has improved.

So yes Splinter does punish Raph more then the others, but the punishment isn't unjustified.

When April called him out about the fact he's waiting in the lair while his son's go out and face certain danger he snaps at her and says "I don't have to explain myself to a child." but later admits she was right to do so.

Leo gloats too. But he's teacher's pet and can do whatever he wants.

[ssjup81]

Originally Posted by Warhorse

Leo gloats too. But he's teacher's pet and can do whatever he wants.

When has Leo gloated, outside of the ep where Leo and Raph were going on about being better than Donnie and Mikey? I'm really having a tough time recalling any moments where he has.

[Warhorse]

Originally Posted by ssjup81

When has Leo gloated, outside of the ep where Leo and Raph were going on about being better than Donnie and Mikey? I'm really having a tough time recalling any moments where he has.

Quite a few times, (the last slice of pizza , another episode where they were again sparring for food, and he won, with a smirk on his face, and showing off in front of Karai, in another episode and Raph saw right through him) and I'm pretty sure there were things we never saw, which is why Slash hit him so hard and actually made the comment of "I've been waiting for that for a long time".

[victory_angel]

Originally Posted by Warhorse

Quite a few times, (the last slice of pizza , another episode where they were again sparring for food, and he won, with a smirk on his face, and showing off in front of Karai, in another episode and Raph saw right through him) and I'm pretty sure there were things we never saw, which is why Slash hit him so hard and actually made the comment of "I've been waiting for that for a long time".

Well yeah, Raph has a jealous streak about Leo (This isn't the entire reason for Raph's rivalry with Leo or his anger. It's just one facet of it.) It's been pointed out a number of times such as Raph getting mad and attacking Leo after Leo wins a sparing match. Heck it's also referenced in the "Tales of the Turtle Lair" Comic where the Tengu the Turtle's are fighting tells Raph "I'm your better, much like your older brother."


So it's more like Slash, back when he was known as Spike had heard more then one jealous rant about how Leo thinks he is so much better then everyone else.

[ssjup81]

Originally Posted by Warhorse

Quite a few times, (the last slice of pizza , another episode where they were again sparring for food, and he won, with a smirk on his face, and showing off in front of Karai, in another episode and Raph saw right through him) and I'm pretty sure there were things we never saw, which is why Slash hit him so hard and actually made the comment of "I've been waiting for that for a long time".

I don't see that as gloating though (the stealth training thing with the pizza) or the gyoza challenge.

Showing off in front of Karai doesn't seem to fit the definition of gloating either. He has a crush on her, so naturally he's going to try to show off to impress her, just like Donnie in the "sadorable" episode when he was sparring with Raph, who embarrassed him after he'd won. I found that ironic. Donnie sparred with Raph and won, but was embarrassed due to Raph's actions. Leo was sparring with Mikey who was doing ok and caught him offguard, embarrassing Leo and causing him to lose his cool.

As Leo is now, he comes across as humble, but I noticed that about Slash, and figured Raph would openly complain to Spike about Leo the most. I found it interesting how Slash beat up Donnie but seemed he was on the verge of killing Mikey before Raph through the smoke bomb egg...thing into his eyes to get Mikey to safety.

I still feel that Raph is jealous that Splinter didn't make him leader, but that's only a part of the reason. I get the impression that, at times, Raph feels that being the physically strongest means that makes you the best candidate for leader.

[Warhorse]

Originally Posted by victory_angel

Well yeah, Raph has a jealous streak about Leo (This isn't the entire reason for Raph's rivalry with Leo or his anger. It's just one facet of it.) It's been pointed out a number of times such as Raph getting mad and attacking Leo after Leo wins a sparing match. Heck it's also referenced in the "Tales of the Turtle Lair" Comic where the Tengu the Turtle's are fighting tells Raph "I'm your better, much like your older brother."


So it's more like Slash, back when he was known as Spike had heard more then one jealous rant about how Leo thinks he is so much better then everyone else.

Or it's possible Slash saw it with his own eyes. Don't forget, he wasn't locked up in Raph's room the whole time, he was pretty much laying around the whole lair.

But this jealousy thing. What are the writers going to do? They can't just keep continuing down this road where he's under Leo's shadow, they have to write something where he is his own person, and very special in his own way, and not under anyone's shadow. I am hoping they might bring in The Nightwatcher, or make Raph the brother that is the brother looking out for his other siblings backs. And heck, he still has a weird way with animals (the pigeon) maybe they can expand on that.

Originally Posted by ssjup81

I don't see that as gloating though (the stealth training thing with the pizza) or the gyoza challenge.

Showing off in front of Karai doesn't seem to fit the definition of gloating either. He has a crush on her, so naturally he's going to try to show off to impress her, just like Donnie in the "sadorable" episode when he was sparring with Raph, who embarrassed him after he'd won. I found that ironic. Donnie sparred with Raph and won, but was embarrassed due to Raph's actions. Leo was sparring with Mikey who was doing ok and caught him offguard, embarrassing Leo and causing him to lose his cool.

As Leo is now, he comes across as humble, but I noticed that about Slash, and figured Raph would openly complain to Spike about Leo the most. I found it interesting how Slash beat up Donnie but seemed he was on the verge of killing Mikey before Raph through the smoke bomb egg...thing into his eyes to get Mikey to safety.

I still feel that Raph is jealous that Splinter didn't make him leader. I get the impression that, at times, Raph feels that being the physically strongest means that makes you the best candidate for leader.

Nah, I think that jealousy started way back before any leadership stuff. I really think that no matter what Raph did, he felt it wasn't good enough for Splinter. And I find this Splinter to be rather mean to Raph more than his other brothers. When one child is being abused more than anyone else, something psychological is about to happen.

As for Slash beating up Mikey the hardest. I honestly don't think he did that due to some scorn Raph felt towards Mikey. I think Slash did that because Mikey is the biggest threat to it just being Slash and Raph. Mikey is the closest to Raph, and I think Slash was jealous of that. In a sense, maybe this is why Raph is jealous of Leo, he's closest to Splinter, the father figure of the house hold, and I highly doubt Raph is his second "favorite son".

And Leo isn't totally humble, he slapped Mikey for crying out loud.

[MiBs]

one of the things I noticed in Slash and Destroy, regarding Leo and Raph, was in the opening scene where Raph is angry with Mikey for getting pizza grease on his magazines. Not only does Leo take Mikey's side, but he does it in a very goody two shoes, "holy" kind of way (which I'm pretty sure he does on purpose) saying that it's "just stuff" and "like master Splinter says....blah blah blah". When my older brother used to do that, when I was a kid, it just p***ed me of. I guess because it in some ways made me feel very much like the younger sibling

I think Raph feels that no one is ever backing him up in situations like that. And I guess Leo is just teasing Raph every now and then, because Raph is doing it to his brothers all the time

[ssjup81]

Originally Posted by Warhorse

Or it's possible Slash saw it with his own eyes. Don't forget, he wasn't locked up in Raph's room the whole time, he was pretty much laying around the whole lair.

Yeah, I know, but I also wonder how long he'd had Spike.

But this jealousy thing. What are the writers going to do? They can't just keep continuing down this road where he's under Leo's shadow, they have to write something where he is his own person, and very special in his own way, and not under anyone's shadow. I am hoping they might bring in The Nightwatcher, or make Raph the brother that is the brother looking out for his other siblings backs. And heck, he still has a weird way with animals (the pigeon) maybe they can expand on that.

I wouldn't mind this. Raph needs to learn that Leo isn't better than him, and that all of them are good in their own ways.

Nah, I think that jealousy started way back before any leadership stuff.

You must've quoted me before my edit. I mentioned that it was part of the reason. I believe it started before the leadership thing too.

I really think that no matter what Raph did, he felt it wasn't good enough for Splinter. And I find this Splinter to be rather mean to Raph more than his other brothers. When one child is being abused more than anyone else, something psychological is about to happen.

I don't feel that it's abuse. I couldn't see Splinter as an abusive person. Raph is the "badboy" of the group. Maybe in Raph's mind it came across as that when it really wasn't. I was under the impression that he was the bully of the group.

As for Slash beating up Mikey the hardest. I honestly don't think he did that due to some scorn Raph felt towards Mikey. I think Slash did that because Mikey is the biggest threat to it just being Slash and Raph. Mikey is the closest to Raph, and I think Slash was jealous of that. In a sense, maybe this is why Raph is jealous of Leo, he's closest to Splinter, the father figure of the house hold, and I highly doubt Raph is his second "favorite son".

That's a good theory. Maybe Slash was jealous. Also, maybe Raph wants to be close to Splinter like Leo. Sibling rivalry.

And Leo isn't totally humble, he slapped Mikey for crying out loud.

I meant about his leadership status.

Also, he slapped Mikey to calm him down that first time, which it didn't (loved Mikey's reaction) and the other time in Turtle Temper because Mikey missed Raph being there, and he thanked him for it I thought. I thought Leo said something like, "Happy to help."

For the former, Donnie's slapped Mikey too to calm him down.

I don't see how this has any association with humbleness in general. As he is now, Leo really seems humble about his leadership status.

[Warhorse]

Originally Posted by ssjup81

I believe it started before the leadership thing too.I don't feel that it's abuse. I couldn't see Splinter as an abusive person. Raph is the "badboy" of the group. Maybe in Raph's mind it came across as that when it really wasn't. I was under the impression that he was the bully of the group.

Well, if Raph is the bully of the group, I'm going back to my psychology classes of 98, where most bullying is stemmed from that person being bullied themselves by a parent, and they act out on the aggression to other kids and siblings.

But then again, this is a part of Raphael in this show that Raph do not like, the bully aspect. He had a temper in other incarnations, but he wasn't an out right bully.

[ssjup81]

Originally Posted by Warhorse

Well, if Raph is the bully of the group, I'm going back to my psychology classes of 98, where most bullying is stemmed from that person being bullied themselves by a parent, and they act out on the aggression to other kids and siblings.

Or it could be for attention. Any type, be it positive or negative. I studied psychology and sociology too. There are some instances where a person bullies a certain person out of jealousy.

But then again, this is a part of Raphael in this show that Raph do not like, the bully aspect. He had a temper in other incarnations, but he wasn't an out right bully.

Yeah, he bullies Mikey a lot, but we know he cares about him very much. In Pizzaface when Mikey had to fight all three brothers, he was apologetic with Donny and Leo, but wasn't with Raph. I guess Raph's hit him one time too many.

Oh yeah, Raph's also made that statement, "Nobody hits Mikey but me" in the first Rat King ep. Raph has many layers and facets to him...I wish they could get explored more.

[Warhorse]

Originally Posted by MiBs

one of the things I noticed in Slash and Destroy, regarding Leo and Raph, was in the opening scene where Raph is angry with Mikey for getting pizza grease on his magazines. Not only does Leo take Mikey's side, but he does it in a very goody two shoes, "holy" kind of way (which I'm pretty sure he does on purpose) saying that it's "just stuff" and "like master Splinter says....blah blah blah". When my older brother used to do that, when I was a kid, it just p***ed me of. I guess because it in some ways made me feel very much like the younger sibling

I think Raph feels that no one is ever backing him up in situations like that. And I guess Leo is just teasing Raph every now and then, because Raph is doing it to his brothers all the time

Oh, Leo can be full of himself sometimes. Remember in Shellacne, when Mikey asked him if he ever had zits, and Leo was actually very vain about "Oh no, never!"

[LeotheLateBloomer]

I've noticed Leo in the CGI projects (this and TMNT 2007) has been really cocky. I didn't like it in the 2007 movie and I don't like it in this show. However, since Leo is maturing a bit here, I've looked passed it. In that same episode you've mentioned, thankfully him and Donnie didn't laugh at Mikey when Raph was making fun of him.

[victory_angel]

In the 2007 movie when he said "And further more, I'm better then you." That was more like he was saying that because he knew that's where Raph's issues stemmed from, where it would hurt Raph the most.


The fear and the belief that Leo is better then him.

[MiBs]

Originally Posted by victory_angel

In the 2007 movie when he said "And further more, I'm better then you." That was more like he was saying that because he knew that's where Raph's issues stemmed from, where it would hurt Raph the most.


The fear and the belief that Leo is better then him.

That scene is very very good IMO, and one of the things I really like about it is Leo's attitude, it just makes it so much more tense. That he's got that side in the Nick show, is one of the reasons that I like Leo much more in this version

[Warhorse]

Originally Posted by victory_angel

In the 2007 movie when he said "And further more, I'm better then you." That was more like he was saying that because he knew that's where Raph's issues stemmed from, where it would hurt Raph the most.


The fear and the belief that Leo is better then him.

I don't think so. I just don't think Raph wants to be told what to do. There are leaders in the world, followers in the world, and those who choose their own paths where they are neither. Raph is the third option. He won't take orders from you, but he won't abandon you either (Donnie did that to them in this show, to go save April, and this is one of the reasons I don't think he's leadership material in this incarnation. Can't just abandon your brothers and the call of duty because your chick may or may not need rescuing.

[87tmntfan]

No I don't think they should. I like how the always get along.
Plus I don't really like how Leo and raph always have to fight about so mthing.

[victory_angel]

The way described it though in the behind the scenes interview at comic con is they had trouble talking about it because they didn't want to spoil what happens. So that means it's going to be a big event. That was actually the first question in the interview.

They just vaguely said that Donatello has to make some big decisions and step up to look after the family. And I would believe Donatello standing up to Leo of all people would need to be big. Majority of the time, he's stood by Leo's side even if he didn't agree with every decision Leo has made.