Why do long-time fans still have mixed reactions to Nick's TMNT?

[Refractive Reflections]

Originally Posted by The Sewer Lord

I'm making an OK face right now.
But seriously, but I have seen a lot of fan wanks similar to mine. But I still haven't seen anyone other than me mention the villain's names and designes.

Oh no, I'm with you somewhat on the villains' names and designs. I probably have to think about that some more, but I just relented more or less after "The Mutation Situation" that the series just wanted to add mutants for the sake of doing so, or possibly to fulfill an action figure "quota" (being pressured by Nick's merchandising). It's just with me, that aspect is obscured with this series having much deeper flaws with its characters.

[The Sewer Lord]

Originally Posted by JYX

Oh no, I'm with you somewhat on the villains' names and designs. I probably have to think about that some more, but I just relented more or less after "The Mutation Situation" that the series just wanted to add mutants for the sake of doing so, or possibly to fulfill an action figure "quota" (being pressured by Nick's merchandising). It's just with me, that aspect is obscured with this series having much deeper flaws with its characters.

That's the point of the second season. To introduce as much as mutants as it can, which is my greatest fear about the season - too many mutants and no character or plot development.

[Refractive Reflections]

Originally Posted by The Sewer Lord

That's the point of the second season. To introduce as much as mutants as it can, which is my greatest fear about the season - too many mutants and no character or plot development.

Right with you there too Sewer Lord. I mean if we peel away those more superficial aspects of the series (the new mutants, the TMNT references, the shipping, the flashy fight scenes), how much material does this series really stand on? Especially when its not attentive to its characters and subplots? Again, I can be proven wrong as soon as next month to the next couple of seasons, but right now... **shrug**

[sdp]

I don't like it too much, it's enjoyable but definitely a disappointment. I don't know what it is, it's abusing things like mutation and changing established characters too much or using new characters that resemble older characters. I like it for what it is but I expected it to outdo 2k3 and it hasn't and doesn't look like it ever will.

[beavercartoon]

Originally Posted by bwrosas

And you know what's funny, within this same time frame, you have another franchise which has a huge fanbase as well, and as of October of last year and throughout the majority of this year, it was revealed and shown that five of the main characters of the comic book adaptation for this franchise were getting redesigns, to make it seem like they came from the very video games that this comic book is based upon.

Now the reason I bring that up, is because just like the people/fans who don't agree with the deaging of April, Casey, and Karai. Fans of this franchise don't agree with the redesigns. And the reason being is because it betrays what the characters originally look like, and from a story standpoint, happens because the main hero of the comic book and overall franchise was interrupted by the main villain while trying to restore his world back to normal.

You may ask, "what does that have to do with April being a teenager?" Nothing really, except that just like with those characters getting redesigns after 20 years of having the same/similar designs, there are fans here within this franchise that find April, Casey, and Karai being turned into teenagers as being un-necessary.

True, some will argue that it was done so that April could grow up with the turtles, and learn just like they do, as well as have fun and make mistakes like any ordinary teenager would do.

Now that I can understand, from a realistic standpoint I can understand that. Except for what happened recently in this second season. Now I don't watch the new series as much as I should, the best way I'm informed about anything going on within this new series continuity, is either through the Internet in places like this or through my soon to be 10-year-old nephew, that's how I keep tabs as best as I can on what's going on in the series.

I would have addressed this post earlier, but I'm new to the forums and my account was only recently activated.

I know you from other forums, so although you didn't name the other franchise I know you were talking about Archie Sonic even though it never needed to be brought up in this topic. But since you mentioned it: I am a 'long-time fan' of Sonic. I started reading the comics late in the 90's, and it always bothered me that characters from the games (Sonic, Knuckles, etc.) looked very different from those who originated in cartoons (Sally, Antoine, etc.) and comic book exclusive characters (Mina, Warlord Kodos, etc.) I spent a good 14 or so years wishing for style cohesion. The redesigns were long overdue to make them more identifiable as the SEGA brand, thus appeal to casual customers as well as people who prefer comic art to have a uniform style and adhere to model sheets.

Archie Sonic was building towards a gradual reveal of the character redesigns, supplying reasons for extreme changes. Antoine, for example, was wounded and seen covered in bandages so any changes to his face could be seen as the result of reconstructive surgery. The abrupt transition of a hero and villain fight and accidentally change history happened not because the author wanted to alienate the old fanbase but because LEGAL troubles necessitated a change. Many of the old cast members were rendered off-limits after Archie failed to regain their copyright in a long, drawn-out lawsuit. There had to be some in-universe explanation for why those characters are gone. Maybe it wasn't the best possible idea/execution but the author (Ian Flynn) was trying to do the best he could under limiting circumstances. But even without the lawsuit the remaining characters still would have gotten redesigned because their old appearance didn't fit the overall series style.

Characters from long running franchises get redesigned periodically, whether you like it or not. This is also why April doesn't wear a yellow jumpsuit all the time or always work for a news crew, despite that being the most well-known representation of her character (although it wasn't the first portrayal of April.) Nickelodeon's April still has red hair and yellow as her primary clothing color so I don't think it would be too hard for fans of the OT to look at the character and know "that must be April!" even before someone says her name.

This is hardly the first time any of the TMNT characters have changed in appearance, age, or backstory. April was heavily implied to be a curly, dark-haired black woman in the first Mirage comics and while I loved that design, I still expect April to be a carrot top in most versions because that's the character model they've settled on (sort of like how Link from Legend of Zelda has been a blond for years, despite originally having auburn or brown hair in sprites and artwork.) She might have bright red hair like in 2k3, short hair like in the OT, or an orange-red ponytail in Nick TMNT, or any other variation thereof, but she's still April O'Neil. Splinter is sometimes an old man turned rat, a younger man turned rat, or just a mutated rat that used to be Hamato Yoshi's pet. It doesn't change his character too drastically. I might prefer Splinter the mutated rat to Splinter the rat/human hybrid, but as long as he still acts like a father figure to the turtles, I'm cool.

The Sonic characters still have essentially the same personalities and relationships they did before a lawsuit forced some changes to their backstory. I can still accept them for who they are. If you can't, that's your decision and you're entitled to feel that way. But please, DON'T presume to speak for all fans.

PS. The length of time you spend in a fandom is not some automatic badge of honor that makes you better at determining how stories ought to be written. A new fan has just as much of a right to their opinions as an older one does.

(I'd also like to apologize if I derailed this topic with excessive talk of Sonic, and I'll try to keep the discussion more TMNT-centric from this point forward.)

[Metalwolf]

Originally Posted by The Sewer Lord

That's the point of the second season. To introduce as much as mutants as it can, which is my greatest fear about the season - too many mutants and no character or plot development.

That's mine as well. I think it's to shill toys, and this minimal plot stuff and random filler episodes is getting on my nerves. They can use plot and character development to introduce new characters for the toys, instead of just dropping in a ton of no-name or lame 'filler' mutants, which I bet most of these 'toys' will prove to be.

Several plot points I'd wish they'd get to developing already:
Miwa/Karai being Splinter's biological daughter. You don't throw hints and drop this big a bombshell and then have the characters not react to it or do much with it. It makes Splinter look like he doesn't care now, especially as we were seeing him looking sad whenever his old life was brought up before.

Whatever the big deal is with April. She's made as this big maguffin the Kraang are after, so lets get the ball rolling. I know they're going to explore this a bit more after the show comes back on, but it'd better not just be a single piece interspersed between yet more random mutant episodes.

Dopound's development. We just recently learned that he wanted to become human again, and why. Also Shredder is being heavily implied to intend to replace him and Xever with Tigerclaw. And to add to this powder-keg drama, Karai walks off with Baxter, callously leaving Bradford and Xever possibly for dead after their electrocution, a move that might set them on her. A big civil war likely brewing in the bad guy camp, and it's barely touched on?

Molecular Centrifuge. Donnie can do things with it that he couldn't have done previously (like making the 'acne' antidote' and theoretically making retro-mutagen.) It's another big item to have, but I'm betting it will just become some glorified paperweight and forgotten about.

[beavercartoon]

They already forgot about the centrifuge. Donnie found one in Parasitica (where Mikey could follow advice and use it to save the day), but then they turtles needed to get another one in Mikey Gets Shell Acne (and Mikey can't tell this centrifuge apart from a beaker, or a microscope, or the same beaker...)

[Aaronardo]

How the **** is this thread not closed?

[CyberCubed]

LOL, the very first post in this thread was saying, "This threads needs to be locked."

[Coola Yagami]

Originally Posted by Metalwolf

That's mine as well. I think it's to shill toys, and this minimal plot stuff and random filler episodes is getting on my nerves. They can use plot and character development to introduce new characters for the toys, instead of just dropping in a ton of no-name or lame 'filler' mutants, which I bet most of these 'toys' will prove to be.

Several plot points I'd wish they'd get to developing already:
Miwa/Karai being Splinter's biological daughter. You don't throw hints and drop this big a bombshell and then have the characters not react to it or do much with it. It makes Splinter look like he doesn't care now, especially as we were seeing him looking sad whenever his old life was brought up before.

Whatever the big deal is with April. She's made as this big maguffin the Kraang are after, so lets get the ball rolling. I know they're going to explore this a bit more after the show comes back on, but it'd better not just be a single piece interspersed between yet more random mutant episodes.

Dopound's development. We just recently learned that he wanted to become human again, and why. Also Shredder is being heavily implied to intend to replace him and Xever with Tigerclaw. And to add to this powder-keg drama, Karai walks off with Baxter, callously leaving Bradford and Xever possibly for dead after their electrocution, a move that might set them on her. A big civil war likely brewing in the bad guy camp, and it's barely touched on?

Molecular Centrifuge. Donnie can do things with it that he couldn't have done previously (like making the 'acne' antidote' and theoretically making retro-mutagen.) It's another big item to have, but I'm betting it will just become some glorified paperweight and forgotten about.

I agree with all these points. The show suffers from a severe case of plot amnesia. Noone gives a crap about April's father until whenever he comes back again. Splinter doesn't really care about the Karai/Miwa thing unless it's another Karai episode. And so forth.

I think Ciro wants all the episodes to be one-shots to prevent boring the kids with plot continuity or something like that.... But dude... you can't have it both ways. Either make it an ongoing story with multi-part arcs or make it episodic. Doesn't work as well when you try to do both.

[Shark_Blade]

Originally Posted by ThatCollectorGuy

How the **** is this thread not closed?

Ditto. *facepalm*

[Coola Yagami]

Originally Posted by Shark_Blade

Ditto. *facepalm*

Why facepalm? This thread brought up a lot of valid points of discussion.

[Metalwolf]

Originally Posted by Coola Yagami

I think Ciro wants all the episodes to be one-shots to prevent boring the kids with plot continuity or something like that.... But dude... you can't have it both ways. Either make it an ongoing story with multi-part arcs or make it episodic. Doesn't work as well when you try to do both.

If he is trying to not bore the kids with plot continuity, then he's going to have real trouble resolving everything if he wants to give the show a tangible ending at the last season. Plus I think he's underestimating kids' attention spans, there were a bunch of kids able to sit through the 2003 Turtles, and that had plot stuff galore. He's underestimating his audience, and eventually kids might grow bored if all they have is filler episodes.

[The Sewer Lord]

Originally Posted by Metalwolf

That's mine as well. I think it's to shill toys, and this minimal plot stuff and random filler episodes is getting on my nerves. They can use plot and character development to introduce new characters for the toys, instead of just dropping in a ton of no-name or lame 'filler' mutants, which I bet most of these 'toys' will prove to be.

Yeah. It's pretty much "quantity over quality".

Molecular Centrifuge. Donnie can do things with it that he couldn't have done previously (like making the 'acne' antidote' and theoretically making retro-mutagen.) It's another big item to have, but I'm betting it will just become some glorified paperweight and forgotten about.

Well technically, Mikey poured a failed batch of retro-mutagen on himself, so the cure was a "retro-retro-mutagen". If that makes any sense.

Originally Posted by beavercartoon

They already forgot about the centrifuge. Donnie found one in Parasitica (where Mikey could follow advice and use it to save the day), but then they turtles needed to get another one in Mikey Gets Shell Acne (and Mikey can't tell this centrifuge apart from a beaker, or a microscope, or the same beaker...)

Mikey's getting dumber with each new ep.

Originally Posted by Coola Yagami

I think Ciro wants all the episodes to be one-shots to prevent boring the kids with plot continuity or something like that.... But dude... you can't have it both ways. Either make it an ongoing story with multi-part arcs or make it episodic. Doesn't work as well when you try to do both.

The OT handled that pretty well. It had a specific type of arcs, you know. Like Shredder searching for a power source for the Technodrome.

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by DONATELLO DUZMACHINES

this feels like the first time that the turtles actually act like teenagers.

Have you ever been around teenagers?

The simple fact is the Turtles behavior in this show does not make them endearing or for that matter likeable. They come off as irksome, irritating, incapable of learning lessons and instead cause more problems, they havent budged an inch in development over two whole seasons, where as every other interpretation learned things much quicker and grew a hell of a lot and gained more dimension in half the time it's taken the Nick incarnations.

Originally Posted by ThatCollectorGuy

How the **** is this thread not closed?

Because concise, well-reasoned points about the show's very apparent flaws is a far step above sucking corporate kool-aid and playing obediant brand loyalist.

[Jester]

1. We don't have "2 whole seasons." Season 2 is less than 1/3 of the was through.
2. 4Kids Mikey completely degraded over the course of the series, going from learning he does good from the shadows as opposed to out in the open as Turtle Titan to fighting with Raph over a magic cape.

[TheSkeletonMan939]

Originally Posted by Jester

4Kids Mikey completely degraded over the course of the series, going from learning he does good from the shadows as opposed to out in the open as Turtle Titan to fighting with Raph over a magic cape.

I agree. But remember, given the dark tone of the show, he was their only good source of comic relief. I honestly can't think of much humor in the show that didn't come from Mikey in later seasons (there were a couple goofy Casey moments, but seriously, that's it). I'm not saying I approve of his idiocy later in the show, but I can understand why it was done.

[Coola Yagami]

Originally Posted by The Sewer Lord

The OT handled that pretty well. It had a specific type of arcs, you know. Like Shredder searching for a power source for the Technodrome.

True, but the OT wanted it set to a way where the episodes don't have to played in a certain order and you can miss a few episodes without missing anything important. Aside from a few eps that introduced a character or so, most of the season 3 eps could be rerunned in random order... and they pretty much were.

This show kinda wants to be that episodic with filler after filler and people forgetting important things like Karai being Miwa and April's father being missing until the plot calls for it again. But then you throw in series-altering events like Rahzar, Slash, wether or not Baxter is working for the Foot again etc.

Can't have it both ways. Make it one one-going storyline, or make it episodic. Not this bizzare mixture of both.

[Jester]

Originally Posted by TheSkeletonMan939

I agree. But remember, given the dark tone of the show, he was their only good source of comic relief. I honestly can't think of much humor in the show that didn't come from Mikey in later seasons (there were a couple goofy Casey moments, but seriously, that's it). I'm not saying I approve of his idiocy later in the show, but I can understand why it was done.

Which shows how weak the 4Kids show was comedically. It forced all the humor into one character...and often times he came off as obnoxious.

[The Sewer Lord]

Originally Posted by Jester

1. We don't have "2 whole seasons." Season 2 is less than 1/3 of the was through.
2. 4Kids Mikey completely degraded over the course of the series, going from learning he does good from the shadows as opposed to out in the open as Turtle Titan to fighting with Raph over a magic cape.

Originally Posted by TheSkeletonMan939

I agree. But remember, given the dark tone of the show, he was their only good source of comic relief. I honestly can't think of much humor in the show that didn't come from Mikey in later seasons (there were a couple goofy Casey moments, but seriously, that's it). I'm not saying I approve of his idiocy later in the show, but I can understand why it was done.

Originally Posted by Jester

Which shows how weak the 4Kids show was comedically. It forced all the humor into one character...and often times he came off as obnoxious.

I think you guys are at the wrong forum...?!

Originally Posted by Coola Yagami

True, but the OT wanted it set to a way where the episodes don't have to played in a certain order and you can miss a few episodes without missing anything important. Aside from a few eps that introduced a character or so, most of the season 3 eps could be rerunned in random order... and they pretty much were.

This show kinda wants to be that episodic with filler after filler and people forgetting important things like Karai being Miwa and April's father being missing until the plot calls for it again. But then you throw in series-altering events like Rahzar, Slash, wether or not Baxter is working for the Foot again etc.

Can't have it both ways. Make it one one-going storyline, or make it episodic. Not this bizzare mixture of both.

That's... pretty much what I said, though.